Full veil not welcome in France, says Sarkozy

[Bozita]

Source: Guardian UK

Full veil not welcome in France, says Sarkozy
Lizzy Davies Paris
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 14 January 2010
Article history


Nicolas Sarkozy last night threw his weight behind moves to ban the full Islamic veil in France, calling for an "unambiguous" parliamentary resolution against an item of clothing he said was "not welcome" in a country which valued sexual equality.

The president, who had shied away from speaking on the issue recently, used his new year's speech to express his desire for a move against face-covering veils.

But, perhaps to dampen down accusations of stoking anti-Muslim feeling, Sarkozy said any law should avoid stigmatising any sections of society.

In a rebuke to figures in his rightwing UMP party who are pushing for a total ban on the burka or niqab in public in the near future, he said lawmakers should wait for the results of a six-month parliamentary inquiry before acting further.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/14/sarkozy-full-veil-ban

[MisterP]

1. 200 Saudi Mutaween will be invited to train the Gendarme in enforcing dress codes

Bernard Stasi welcomed them as "our partners in fear of difference"

:sarcasm:

[JDPriestly]

2. Napoleon banned clerical collars.

At the tender age of 16, Vincenzo entered the ranks of the clergy. After a spiritual retreat at the Lazarist mission house, he was given the clerical tonsure on Easter Monday, April 15, 1811. This entitled him to wear the religious garb and to the title Abate . But the clerical garb had to wait three more years to be donned, for during the Napoleonic occupation of Rome, clerical garb was strictly forbidden among the young clergy. On May 26 Vincent was ordained to the four Minor Orders: Porter, Lector, Exorcist, and Acolyte.

http://brotherandre.stblogs.com/2009/08/13/apostle-of-the-infinite-the-life-of-saint-vincent-pallotti/

The attitude in France is a little different with regard to the wearing of religious symbols than it is in the U.S.

[Turborama]

3. Full veil not welcome in France, says Sarkozy

Source: The Guardian

Nicolas Sarkozy last night threw his weight behind moves to ban the full Islamic veil in France, calling for an "unambiguous" parliamentary resolution against an item of clothing he said was "not welcome" in a country which valued sexual equality.

The president, who had shied away from speaking on the issue recently, used his new year's speech to express his desire for a move against face-covering veils. But, perhaps to dampen down accusations of stoking anti-Muslim feeling, Sarkozy said any law should avoid stigmatising any sections of society.

In a rebuke to figures in his rightwing UMP party who are pushing for a total ban on the burka or niqab in public in the near future, he said lawmakers should wait for the results of a six-month parliamentary inquiry before acting further.

Once the panel's recommendations were known, Sarkozy said, parliament should pass a non-binding but "unambiguous" resolution making clear the full veil's incompatibility with French values.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/14/sarkozy-full-veil-ban

[cutlassmama]

4. That probably won't end well. However, he has a point about equality.

I think it's more than that though.

[D-Lee]

10. Full veils impairs vitamin D metabolism (bad health practice)

One needs not only sunshine on a good amount of skin, but also at least some sunshine on one's skin to start the metabolic process.

Anyone have any research links? I've heard anecdotally that full veils lead to early osteoporosis and shortened life expectancy ...

[depakid]

12. But think of all the skin cancers prevented!

[bajamary]

5. a deep seated anti-Muslim French "feeling"

I have family in France several of whom are Muslim. From what I've been told and seen, there is a rather deep seated anti-Muslim strain in the French society.

My darling nephew-in-law has been harassed by the French police on many occasions. While he is a French citizen, he is often stopped by the French police and asked to "sow his papers". And on more than one occasion, he would be kept in jail for no reason.

[DesertFlower]

13. there's also a lot of

antisemitism.

[Flagg]

17. Mainly from muslims.

[Tempest]

22. So it's Muslims in Germany who are vandalizing Jewish cemeteries?

Take your bigotry elsewhere.

[Flagg]

37. I'm French and those are the facts.

The only times, in recent history, that anti-semitism has really flared in France coincide with the first and second intifada. It is widely recognized that this modern form of French antisemitism is due to disenfranchised and uneducated Muslim youths.

As for neo nazi groups, they exist in most Western countries. And of course they perpetuate anti-semitic acts of their own. But there's just too few of them, at least in France, to even compare -statistically speaking - with those muslims.

I really hate people who see racists and bigots everywhere.

[Recursion]

88. Umm... Dreyfuss?

France has a long, solid history of antisemitism.

[Flagg]

108. Nothing to do with post. Dreyfus happened in the 1890's.

This is 2010.

If you wanted to make a more convincing case you should have picked the Vichy period instead.
What the hell foes the Dreyfus affair prove vis vis France circa 2010 ? Ridiculous.


France, along with others, has a history of anti-semitism. It doesn't mean the French of 2010 are anti-Semites.
Are the Germans, the Austrians, Italians or others anti-Semites too because of their history ?

Is the United States a racist country forever because of the Jim Crow laws ? Is every American a racist because of the Jim Crow laws ?

[Chicago dyke]

49. there's plenty of french anti-semitism to go around

and french muslims are far from the only group guilty of that.

[Flagg]

59. Not more so than in any other country with a significant Jewish population

apart from the specific issues some French muslims have with Jews that is.

[ChangoLoa]

34. French antisemitism is strange

I don't know many countries with jewish presidents/prime ministers in their history. I know it's from being the best possible scale but still...
Léon Blum in the 30's, Sarkozy mother's family (Mallah) is Sephardi from Greece (megorashim).

[Flagg]

38. Laurent Fabius, a jew, was the Prime Minister of France from 1984 to 1986.

Dominique Strauss Khan, another Jew, is the favorite right now to succed Sarkozy, who probably won't run again, in 2012.

Not bad for the most anti semitic county on the face of the earth. (according to some).

[ChangoLoa]

42. Right

The same old yurop BS that started with the invasion of Iraq.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Why do some people always have to try to change the subject to antisemitism?

What the hell did what you said have to do with what you were replying to? That antisemitism justifies bigotry towards Muslims?

[reggie the dog]

20. the cops and lots of people here are anti muslim

it is like the anti mexican sentiment in the USA. It's one of the things we do wrong here.

[ChangoLoa]

30. Indeed

That's why I wouldn't really trust the motivations of the UMP concerning the veil... especially when it comes along with the "laïcité positive" and the Ministry of Immigration and National Identity.

Ils sont clairs comme de l'eau de roche.

[reggie the dog]

58. Ils sont cons aussi

mais je savais avant, c'est pour ça que j'ai voté Bové au 1iere tour et Socialiste au 2ieme.....ils n'aime pas trop les immigrants l'UMP, ni leurs descendants, et encore moins si ils sont musulman. I have their identity so I can vote here in France and back in my birthcountry of the USA. I am athiest and middle class so many people that do not like muslims have no problem with me, but the hardcore nationalists hate all immigrants and their kids, grandkids, etc.....

[barb162]

31. Are the Muslim men veiling for modesty?

Or is modesty just for one sex.

[marshall]

70. The veil is to control the men's lust

Presumably the women don't lust after the men, thus no veil for the men.

[Psephos]

74. The veil is to control the men's chattels. n/t

[Recursion]

81. The rules for male dress are defined by the same hadiths

They specify that men must wear long pants and a long sleeve shirt; the difference is that women must also cover their hair.

Nobody that I know of, not even the strictest talib, is saying that women must wear veils as a religious obligation.

[defendandprotect]

6. k

[Bigmack]

7. Maybe this makes me a racist hypocrite

but I promise I believe in the worth and dignity of ALL people. HOWEVER I agree that the full veiling crap should be illegal. It denigrates women and it IS wrong and it should be illegal. Ms Bigmack

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Yup.

Sure does.

[Mojorabbit]

11. As a woman I have to agree. nt

[femrap]

21. I agree as well....

separation of church and state. And 'When in Rome....'

Why live in a nation that does not conform to one's ideas? Do I want to move to Saudi Arabia? Hell No!

I'd feel a bit better if the male Muslims were required to wear a full-headed set of blinders making it more difficult for them to view the 'native women.'

Seems fair, huh?

[leftynyc]

18. This woman fully agrees with you

Face veils are dehumanizing.

[barb162]

28. TOTALLY AGREE! n/t

[Chicago dyke]

50. it should occur to people here that there is more to

donning the veil than just islamic piety. in europe, muslim women who do so often are also making a political statement.

i'm an atheist, feminist, and queer, so trust me when i say i totally reject the "logic" behind the idea that women need to cover up their bodies in order to be good women. otoh, if i were a muslim in europe right now, knowing what european nations are doing in muslim nations around the world, and the increasingly hostile attitudes many non-muslim europeans have about their colonial populations, i'd strongly consider wearing the veil.

all i'm saying is that the european community has a lot to answer for, with respect to what it has done and continues to do to the post-colonial muslim nations around the world.

[leftynyc]

52. Welcome to DU

What you say may be true but it doesn't change the way I feel about a face veil (I have no problem with the hijab at all). It's dehumanizing and far too many women in the world are FORCED to wear them. I'm not inclined to excuse misogyny because of Europe's colonial past. As a protest statement, the women can stick with the hijab.

[riderinthestorm]

53. Welcome to DU but I'm extremely skeptical

Yes, there is a tiny fraction of a percentage of European women who are donning the burqa as some kind of protest garment but that's an extremist fringe and certainly not any kind of a majority as far as my reading tells me. Do you have any stats to back that up?

The hijab yes, certainly is being worn this way. But burqa? Not in any accounts that I've read or from the people I've talked to (I've got European citizenship and American citizenship, currently living in the US but with daily contact with friends and family over there).

[Chicago dyke]

55. when i was in grad school i took a class

with an egyptian-american prof who specialized in islamic piety movements among women in the ME and elsewhere. she's done extensive work on this issue, and yes, if you speak to some islamic women, they will tell you that it is in part a political statement, as well as a religious and cultural one.

lemme put it to you this way: if Sarkozy said "we're going to ban the wearing of crucifix necklaces, because the christian religion has historically discriminated against women" would you be ok with that too?

women should be free to wear what they want. choice of dress is an important component of the "freedom" Nick says he cares so much about. instead of supporting a very obviously anti-muslim law, he should be asking french muslims and french nonmuslims how he can help them understand and peacefully tolerate each other. to me, this law (if passed) is racist and anti-islamic in the worst way, and will only make french society less peaceful, not more.

(and i've been coming to DU since the old, old days. i just don't comment much, and i keep losing my login passwords. this is my third identity here. i also have a double digit KOS account number, for all i can't find the password to that anymore either. but thanks! DU is always a fun place to be)

[riderinthestorm]

57. If you are going to make a statement that women are donning burqas as a political statement,

you need to provide some back-up for that position. I know it's true of the hijab but not the burqa and I'd be very curious about stats on that instead of an anecdote from your grad school days. That statistic would do more to support your position that the proposed ban is "racist and anti-islamic" than anything else you could articulate. From my reading the people who want to "keep the burqa!" in France are virtually all male, with a very, very small percentage of (Stockholm Syndrome) females, and none of them are positioning themselves as freedom fighting activists bent on exposing Europe's history of oppressive colonialism.

France has banned all religious symbols from schools and the French are supportive of that, including Muslims who are prohibited from wearing even headscarves. And yes, if the crucifix had the deeply misogynistic symbolism that the burqa does, I would be perfectly fine with banning it. Sometimes you have to legislate equality. It's been a historical fact (on so, so many issues from slavery, Jim Crow, miscegenation laws, and educational equality to anti-littering and anti-smoking laws etc.)

France has a much more deeply ingrained culture of secularism than we do in the US, and they have a history of banning religious garb to ensure that ideal is maintained (including banning Christian symbols and dress). You can try to make this about choice of dress (which it is but I would stipulate that's far less of a compelling argument. Women in the west accept laws limiting their ability to go out topless for example. Clothing laws are nothing new.) Sarkozy and many other French people are addressing the deeper issue of the ideals of their country. That's the more interesting conversation for me.

And again, I firmly disagree that banning the burqa will make french society "less peaceful". Honestly, until you bring me compelling numbers of French Muslims who are that unhinged over this proposed ban, I remain deeply skeptical of any kind of real reaction in that society if the law passes.

[Chicago dyke]

63. well, you'll have to forgive me if i trust

an egyptian-american scholar of islam with a PhD and several peer-reviewed books and papers under her belt, than some comment on a blog. sorry, her class curriculum isn't available on wiki. you'll just have to you know, read some books and speak with some of the women in question. like she did. and me as well.

[riderinthestorm]

64. So you have nothing to support your statement?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really would be very interested in finding anything other than your anecdotal evidence that Islamic women don the burqa as a political statement. That's completely new to me.

Perhaps you can post your professor's name and some of the books you've this in, I may be able to find it myself.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "comments on a blog"? Are you talking about DU? You're the one purporting to have info on these activist women, I'm not. So it's up to you to support that statement.

[Chicago dyke]

69. what i'm saying is that i'm not going to sit here and upload and scan

0000s of pages of scholarship in actual books by actual experts on islam, that the wiki community has yet to get around to summarizing, just to satisfy a random comment by a stranger on a "blog"/webiste. read a book. one written by muslim scholars. i trust you're bright enough to find some.

i did my doctoral work at the #1 ranked Divinity school in the nation. i don't need to prove anything, when it comes to knowing about religion, thanks. but go ahead with knee jerk Western reactions to the meaning of muslim women taking the veil. it only proves their point when you do so.

[iris27]

75. No one's asking you to scan pages of text, just to name a couple books.

Not that hard...

[MisterP]

77. I liked Joan Wallach Scott's "The Politics of the Veil"

it covers the interaction of imperialism in North Africa, xenophobia, conformist "Frenchness," and how many crypto-neocons declare that nobody could possibly want to not conform to the benefits of Westernization (the pinnacle of human soceity, of course), so they have to be pushed by nefarious forces. Scott also notes how this is completely disengaged from the realities on the ground, since the Stasi Commission et al didn't bother to consider the hijabed students' opinions.

[riderinthestorm]

95. That book is about hijab, or headscarves, not niqab or burqa. nt

[KittyWampus]

86. here is ONE book on Amazon. But there are others. I've heard commentary on NPR and News Hour

not interested in hunting down links to those.

http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Muslim-Women-Veil-Challenging/dp/1565642872

[riderinthestorm]

94. That is hijab, not the burqa or niqab. There is a difference. nt

[KittyWampus]

85. there has been quite a bit of discussion, often by more liberal Muslim commentators, on this phenome

Younger Muslim women are wearing veils and burqas as a means of asserting an identity and acting out.

The way teenagers often do.

[Recursion]

89. The word "burqa" gets misused a lot

Burqas as such are pretty much limited to the Kush, and women were wearing them there long before Islam.

What you're probably thinking of is niqab.

And, finally, no matter how much you want to, you don't get to tell Muslim women what to wear.

[riderinthestorm]

92. Sorry but there are laws that definitely DO tell women what they can wear.

That's a bogus argument every time it comes up (and it always does in every single thread on this topic). Your cultural relativism is showing. It's inevitable someone shows up up sooner or later to scold those of us who value women's rights and proclaim us all as bigots about this article of clothing. Are you campaigning to eliminate public clothing laws in the US? We accept that there are some parts of our "public sphere" that are regulated for various reasons. Why is it that banning this oppressive garment is interpreted as outrageous? We ban other stuff.

And I'm using burqa as a universal instead of always saying, full face veil, niqab and burqa. I mean them interchangeably.

[Recursion]

97. My "cultural relativism"? I've actually been to the middle east

And I know people much more feminist than anyone here who wore niqab, and I simply don't accept your Eurocentric ideas that
A) niqab, etc. are tools of oppression, and
B) you are going to make the world a better place by forbidding women from wearing them.

[MH1]

99. so are you ok with female genital mutiliation as well?

and ritual pedophilia?

as long as we have to accept in our culture every practice that is accepted in some other human culture, these would be covered.

Women ARE abused in some "Muslim" societies (in quotes because some other Muslims might reject those, as some Christians reject right wing fundamentalists here). Unfortunately the anecdotes are frequent enough to deeply revulse a civilized mind. Some of us don't want that crap in our world and seeing women subjugated behind a veil (which is what it looks like, whatever it actually is), is terrifying to women who are barely beginning to see almost-equality here.

Female and want to wear a full veil or burqa? Take it somewhere else. Covering the face without good reason (safety, inclement weather) is frowned upon here. Sorry.

[Recursion]

101. No. Next question?

[riderinthestorm]

104. Oh lovely, the "I have black friends too!" denial....

You don't know a single thing about me or anyone else here on DU to know how "feminist" we are in RL... like we give a damn. I don't give a shit about anecdotes, get it? My experience happens to be on the other side of the equation: rape crisis centers and women's shelters where these oppressed women land. So you've been to the middle east, and I've been holding the retching, raped, beaten woman desperately shrouded... whose experience is more "real"? Whose experience is more valid? Sorry but if banning those shrouds saves one single woman from a life of abuse and oppression, count me in.

And frankly, we ARE talking about Europe here. That's the fucking point. You and the other (what 25?) Muslimahs who want to draw a line in the sand over niqab or burqas are barking up the secular, equality-for-all, cultural relativism tree.

We did, have done so, and can make the world a better place by implementing laws to force social change when it comes to oppression: slavery, jim crow, educational equality, "miscegenation", protection of native tribal rights, FGM, etc. And yes, even banning the burqa. These were deeply unpopular ideas that went against local communities and "cultural" norms. Sometimes one has to force these ideals on a backward society. I'm sorry you think that type of legal action is "bigotry". I call it justice.

[MH1]

106. ..

:applause:

thank you for taking a stand on this issue. I am so tired of hearing the "cultural defenders" defend barbaric treatment of women.

[gula]

65. A crucifix necklace does NOT cover the face.

If these women insist on following a very minority interpretation of the Koran, let them move to a country where it is the norm. In the occident covered faces are associated with criminals or very cold weather.

As someone said, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

[bitchkitty]

79. +1

Agree wholeheartedly.

[barb162]

25. You're not a racist hypocrite. Why aren't Muslim men veiling?

Oh, maybe it's too hot, they don't like the restrictions or whatever. Let's put it this way. If it's so damned important to be modest, the Muslim men should be doing it too. But they're not, they're walking around with short sleeves, etc. Because one sex is doing it, I call it what it is: SEXISM sanctioned by religion.

[riderinthestorm]

29. I agree as well. I've frequently argued this point on DU and I'm glad others understand.

There are so many things wrong with the full veil, niqab, burqa etc. It's demeaning to women to have to shroud themselves as though their very sexuality is a problem. It relegates them to secondary status as invisible entities. It's not a "safe" garment as a woman can't see peripherally, can't run well, can't fight off an attacker. It demeans men who are cast as such thugs they can't control themselves unless the women are fully shrouded.

I could go on and on... it doesn't make you a racist hypocrite to think that this type of veiling is a problem. It demonstrates to me at least, that you implicitly understand that this garment is inherently wrong.

France's headscarf ban in public schools has been welcomed by the vast majority of Muslims in France who understand that CHILDREN being forced to wear religious symbols in one of France's most secular institutions is trouble.

France has a long and proud secular history. This isn't the first time they've banned religious garb in order to protect some of their most cherished ideals.

[Dr. Strange]

56. So here's where it gets interesting...

A woman gets caught wearing a veil in public. What do you do? Arrest her? Fine her? Arrest/fine her husband? What if she's single?

[riderinthestorm]

60. I'd assume she first gets asked to take it off, if she refuses, she's arrested.

Just like I would first be asked to put a shirt on if I were outside topless. If I refused, I'd be arrested and forcibly covered if needs be. Of course, the police don't even have to ask for my compliance - they have the weight of the law to simply arrest me without a request but that would open up a whole 'nuther DU controversy (good cop, bad cop! Olive Garden! breastfeeding in public! smoking! Heh...)

Clothing laws and their enforcement isn't anything new in Western cultures (and obviously in Eastern cultures too)....

[EFerrari]

73. Yes, you fine her. If her family is pressuring her, they will pay it

since she is also not likely allowed to control her own money.

If she is breaking the law of her own volition, she will pay the fine.

It's pretty straight forward.

[Dr. Strange]

80. It may seem straight forward...

until the family decides not to pay. Then what? Throw her in jail?

[riderinthestorm]

105. Probably she would be thrown in jail. If I went out without a shirt, repeatedly, I'd go to jail. too

Look it's the law. We have clothing laws already in place and nobody seems to get all bent out of shape, shouting "bigotry" over the existing ones we already have. If you take off your pants and dance around main street in your underwear, you are going to be arrested. As a society and a community, we've decided upon some clothing standards in our public square. But somehow this oppressive, misogynistic garment called burqa or niqab gets a pass?

And who is sexist?

[EFerrari]

107. Those things don't go together culturally. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

66. No, it'd make you a bigoted hypocrite, not a racist one......

And that would really depend on whether this aversion to how women dress is specific to just this one thing, or whether it extends to other situations where women conver themselves. See the problem is that even in this thread, there are a few folk who hide behind women's rights to peddle their bigotry and hatred towards Muslims. But they don't stop for a second to explain how they're supporting women's rights when they're supporting the arrest of women who dress in a way that displeases them and think they have the right to force women how to dress. Which is why the answer to this issue is education, not punishing the women themselves...

[Bo]

71. I agree with Bigmac , get rid of the full veil. Degenerate bastards.

EVOLVE

[Recursion]

83. Yeah, forcing people to change their culture works really well

Americans and Europeans are disturbingly tone deaf about hijab and niqab.

[MH1]

102. they are not forced to change their culture

they can go somewhere that supports their culture, and not stay someplace that does not agree that women should cover their faces when men do not.

I am very certain that if I tried to exercise some of my cultural practices in any one of many Muslim societies, I would face much worse than a fine.

[MH1]

98. +1000

[shadesofgray]

103. +1

[Gregorian]

8. You can eat snails? So why not veils?

I don't believe it. I do not believe the French people are not tolerant. I don't believe Sarkozy represents the French people.


I've got to add that if someone is forced to wear a veil against their wishes, that's wrong. But to suppress the free wearing of something that isn't considered obscene is just as wrong.

[DesertFlower]

14. i agree. if the woman

wants to wear the veil she should be able to.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. Is it the woman who WANTS to wear it, or the men of her family who DEMAND it

[Tempest]

23. Muslim women are the ones behind the protests against the proposed law

You should try reading up on what's going on over there.

[barb162]

27. What, all 25 of them? n/t

[Scout]

44. and some slaves thought they were better off remaining slaves....

some women participate in the oppression of all of them ... doesn't make it right.

women do not have a "free choice" when it comes to wearing the veil.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

67. and I am sure it is without coercion of any form

[Recursion]

84. Why don't you go ask a female muslim how she feels about it? NT

[femrap]

24. Yeah...well when it's 90 degrees outside,

I'd like to take off my shirt but since I am female, I would be arrested. But I could possibly find a nudist colony near a beach and cool off (right, I live in the midwest).

If a Muslim woman wants to be enveloped in a burqa, do so at home. And how do you know if that is what she wants. The man in her life may be demanding this.

Organized religions brainwash people and they are no friend to women.

"No shirt, no shoes, no service.'

There are lots of things I would like to do, but can't. Freedom has many limitations when dealing in a diverse community.

I'd like to require that males wear tight jeans...Goddess said it is to be.
Wonder how far I'll get with that?

[Gregorian]

54. :)

Go for it!

Life could be so fun. Well, mine is. That's why I never married, and just do as I please. I'm off to go play in the mud right now. And jump on my tractor and drive around. And listen to loud rock and roll.

[femrap]

61. I didn't enter

that stifling institution either. 'By the power invested in me by THE STATE, I now pronounce you....'

No thank you.

I'll go play in the snow....OK shovel some.

[iris27]

76. Except of course that the whole point behind the burqa means that there's no

reason to wear it at home (the woman can be seen by male members of the family but not by strangers in public)...really goes beyond mere sexism into "women as property", doesn't it?

There are plenty of countries whose laws allow for this sort of twisted discrimination; it's a-ok with me if France chooses not to be among them.

[JCMach1]

16. I am a bit ambivalent about this as I have known radical feminists who wear niqab and

conservative girls who dress like Brittney Spears...

Whenever this comes up in discussion, I usually tell my female students that it is their right to wear whatever you like. However, if you do dress in a conservative fashion, make sure it is for personal religious reasons and that it is your personal choice before God to do so... not just because someone has told you to do it.

To do the latter, actually, would be an insult to God anyway.

[Tailormyst]

19. Good because the women don't "really" have a choice anyway

They wear the damn things because the men in their culture impose these restrictions on them. They aren't in any position to complain, lest they receive a backlash from their friends and family.

[Tempest]

26. Sure is a lot of ignorance being shown here about this subject

“Wearing a veil is how I am happiest,” says 40-year-old Khadija Valimulla, of Queens Road, Blackburn.

The mother of three has worn the burka – Islamic clothing which covers a woman from head to toe and only leaves the eyes visible – for the last 10 years. The same can be said for her mother, two of her four sisters and her 19-year-old daughter.

Why? Because it is an important part of their religion.


Later in the article she talks how she used to not wear one, but made a CHOICE to wear it.

[barb162]

32. Pray tell why Muslim men aren't veiling for modesty. n/t

[riderinthestorm]

33. You do know this isn't any part of their religion don't you?

The Quran does not require the burqa, niqab or full face veil at all. In fact, only Aisha, Muhammed's wife was required to do so because she was getting harassed. Nobody else has to wear this garb.

Even the hijab isn't mentioned in the Quran anywhere. It's a cultural affectation and not a religious "requirement".

[Tempest]

36. So because it's not in the Quran, it's not part of their religion?

That ignores how religion changes over the years from the original texts used to foster the religion.

[riderinthestorm]

48. "Religion changes over the years" is code for "oppress women" imho.

Sorry but if you are going to follow Muhammed (and Muslims like to proclaim they do) and his words, then be prepared to be confronted over misogynistic practices that have sprung up that aren't part of the original text.

Fact is, full veiling is an aberration of what Muhammed originally designated. I'm not a believer but frankly, Muhammed WAS ahead of his time in how he wanted women to be treated for that era. We're now 1500 years past Muhammed's era though... maybe it's time the religion could "change" to reflect THAT? instead of adhering to medieval era norms. Or perhaps Muslims could acknowledge the higher ideal of Muhammed's progressivism instead of trying to freeze the religion in 600 AD?

I completel agree that religions change, but "misogynistic changes" should be condemned in this day and age.

[ChangoLoa]

39. S. XXIV (Al-Nûr, The Light) v. 31

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

But, actually, many scholars argue that the text was changed in order to reflect a clear statement about the veil, which was originally absent.

[barb162]

41. SEXISM loud and clear here. Modesty for ONE sex only. n/t

[ChangoLoa]

43. Sadly... middle age text. nt

[barb162]

51. Even more sadly, it's being used to minimize and enslave women. n/t

[riderinthestorm]

47. Yes, veil their "bosoms".

Hair, face etc. are not specified at all. Sorry but interpreting "cover your breasts" to mean "wear a full fucking shroud over every part of your body" is misogyny plain and simple.

Many ancient cultures have men and women bare chested. That used to be the norm. Muhammed wanted to draw a clear line between believers in his mythology vs. the others who believed in pagan mythology. "Wear a shirt" was a pretty clear indicator.

[barb162]

40. If Aisha was harassed, Muhammed should have gone after the harassers

instead of requiring the VICTIM to cover. Or am I missing something?

[Scout]

45. nope, you are not missing a thing ... you are correct n/t

[Recursion]

82. It's certainly in some hadiths

Hijab is required in some well-respected hadiths. But not even the taliban claimed that the requirement for burqas was a religious requirement.

[Tailormyst]

35. And how many wear one because they must?

How many wear one and are afraid to say they hate it? Burkas and the rules they always go along with them make a woman less then human.

[leftynyc]

46. But it's not an important part

of their religion. Ask her to show you where in the Koran it says a woman needs to be covered from head to toe. It asks for modesty - it's the backward men who are intepreting and butchering the religion that force the women to dehumanize themselves because (apparently) they can't control themselves and would behave like animals otherwise.

[totodeinhere]

110. Religion = the opiate of the masses as they always say.

Religion has been the source of so much evil in this world. That includes fundamentalist Christians, Muslims, and others. I have no sympathy for anyone who is ignorant enough to swallow that fundamentalist garbage.

[LanternWaste]

62. Next thing to go will be the Nun's habit...

Next thing to go will be the Catholic nun's habit...

oh, wait... that's different.

[Nihil]

78. What nuns do you know that wear a full-face habit? (n/t)

:eyes:

[LanternWaste]

87. The difference lies merely in degrees...

I guess covering only 75% of the head holds more morality or somesuch...
The difference you see, is merely in degrees.

(Nice eyeroll, though. very clever. Very clever indeed)

[riderinthestorm]

96. You really don't see a difference between the full face covering of burqa or niqab

in comparison to hijab (the type of veil used by nuns, translated to a headscarf for Muslimas)?

[Scout]

91. yes, it is different

no one is BORN a nun.

when one becomes a nun, one signs up VOLUNTARILY and one knows that one is expected to wear whatever the current version of the nun's "uniform" happens to be.

[MH1]

100. and one can also leave

and not be under sentence of death for apostasy.

[defendandprotect]

72. "Democracy, dignity and sexual equality" . .. would be nice to hear a bit of that in America....

We are spreading imperialism under a veil of "democracy" --

Pax Americana --

OTOH while I congratulate Sarkozy on this issue, there should be a total ban on the

burka or niqab in public --


Let's look at this issue this way . . . when men begin to veil their faces, other than

for holdups, then an equal number of women may.

[AlphaCentauri]

90. Australiasn have a good sense of humor

Women protest Sheikh’s comments with bikini march
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16650/women-protest-sheikhs-comments-with-bikini-march

[CreekDog]

93. I don't like it unless men have to wear them too

sorry.

it's not about tolerance. i simply don't like it.

[JustAnotherGen]

109. Terribly sad

That this is even a matter when according to the article - approximately 2K women wear it. There are over 60 million people in France and it's territories. I guess I question why this even has to be legislated. Regardless, I'm a huge fan of vacationing in France. As long as they don't ban drinking vast amounts of local Rose wine while lying topless on the beach at club 55 in st. tropez at 11:00 a.m. on Wednesday morning? I'm happy. ;-)

I may not or may not agree with 'their' way but I'm not going to impose my way.

And compared to how a British rape victim on vacation in Abu Dhabi is treated (charged with illegal sex), this legislation is a drop in the bucket in terms of mistreatment of groups of individuals. I'd say the 2K muslim women living in France that this legislation will impact might have it just a wee bit easier than that British woman had on vacation in the Middle East.

[Amonester]

111. Burqa-clad robbers hold up post office

Burqa-clad robbers hold up post office

Posted Sun Feb 7, 2010 9:22am AEDT
Updated Sun Feb 7, 2010 9:28am AEDT

Two burqa-wearing robbers have held up a French post office using a handgun concealed beneath an Islamic-style full veil, court officials said.

Officials said postal office staff let the pair through the security double doors of the banking branch near Paris, believing them to be veil-wearing Muslim women.

Once inside, the pair flipped back their head coverings and pulled out a gun.

They made off with 4,500 euros ($7,100) seized from the staff and customers of the branch in Athis Mons, just south of Paris, according to the online edition of Le Parisien newspaper.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/07/2812378.htm



I always 'knew' this kind of crime was going to happen sooner or later.
And I often posted here that's why I agree with Sarkozy on this.

(It's too late to post this news story as OP.)