FDA Has No Authority Over Electronic Cigarettes, Judge Says

[pamela]

Source: WSJ

WASHINGTON—A federal judge said the Food and Drug Administration doesn't have the authority to seize electronic cigarettes because the products don't qualify as devices subject to the agency's regulation.

In a 32-page opinion, U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon sided with electronic-cigarette makers Smoking Everywhere Inc. and Njoy. He criticized what he called the FDA's "tenacious drive to maximize its regulatory power," saying he found its interpretation of the law "unreasonable and unacceptable."

Representatives of the FDA weren't immediately available for comment. The FDA cited its longstanding authority to regulate drugs and medical devices in claiming the right to bar electronic cigarettes, not a new law passed last year that gave the agency added powers to regulate tobacco marketing.

The FDA has seized shipments of electronic cigarettes, which look and taste like cigarettes, amid concerns the products were being marketed as safer alternatives to traditional tobacco.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704281204575003210539993700.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_news

[virgogal]

1. Good.

[HopeHoops]

2. From what I have read, the things are FUCKING EXPENSIVE - both initially and to use.

I gave up smoking 25 years ago (cold turkey), and yeah it sucked. Back then, a pack was around $1.00 and I smoked at least two a day. They're REALLY expensive now. Why trade an expensive habit for one that's even MORE expensive?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

3. Not in my experience.

The initial start-up kit is a bit pricey, but the actual nicotine cartridges (5-packs) are relatively cheap, $20 or less. One cartridge is roughly equal to one pack of cigarettes.

It really helps in my location (NYC), where real cigarettes are $10 a pack.

[tridim]

4. Apparently you can make your own juice quite cheaply.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/

[HopeHoops]

5. You can grow your own pot, too.

:evilgrin: :smoke:

[tridim]

6. DIY'ers are in heaven lately.

;) I guess this is what real freedom feels like.

BTW agent Mike, I'm Colorado Ammendment 20 compliant.

[bc3000]

14. I think that's a bad idea.

Someone's going to end up killing themselves making their own liquid and then they will have the impetus to ban it.

The liquid is cheap compared to smoking. I recommend just buying it. If you can't afford the buck a day the good American-made juice will cost you, just buy the cheap Chinese crap for a third of the price.

[pamela]

7. It has been less expensive than smoking, for me.

I buy the juice and refill my cartridges or drip it directly on the atomizer. A $20.00 bottle of juice will last me several weeks. More importantly, my health has improved considerably. No more smoker's cough and I have not had the depressive symptoms I always got during my previous attempts to quit.

[damntexdem]

8. All of the above notwithstanding, the ruling is nonsense.

The things are a means of delivering a drug: nicotine. Whether or not it is safe and effective should be assessed by the FDA.

[pamela]

11. I was very surprised by the ruling.

I thought for sure it would go the other way. I'm just happy that they didn't make one more thing I like to do illegal.

[bc3000]

16. I disagree.

I don't need a study to tell me inhaling water vapor is safer than inhaling cigarette smoke any more than I need a study that tells me bananas are healthier than 99 cent double cheeseburgers at Burger King.

[Statistical]

20. The ruling didn't say anything about a study.

The ruling is nonsense.

ecigs may be safer but they are still a drug delivery system.

The purpose and intent is to dispense nictotine which is a drug into blood system.

The idea that they don't fall under the FDA is stupid. I expect a reversal on appeal or if necessary Congress passing legislation bringing this under FDA.

Note: I am not saying they should be banned simply that you can't say cigs are a drug and regulated by FDA but ecigs are now magically not a drug and not subject to regulation by FDA.

[bc3000]

27. The poster I was replying to did.

He said "Whether or not it is safe and effective should be assessed by the FDA"

Am I wrong in assuming an assessment would involve a study?

[David__77]

43. A pipe is a drug delivery system.

But the FDA does not seize these. I think this is a question of how expansive the administrative reach of government is without explicit legislative sanction.

[DoctorMyEyes]

90. No more a drug delivery system than my coffee machine

I can choose to use a ZERO nicotine ejuice in my e-cig. I can choose to brew decaf in my Mr. Coffee. I like caffeine.

[paulsby]

21. the FDA is yet another example of creeping federalism

and constantly attempt to expand their regulatory authority via administrative procedures (as in this case), than via LEGISLATIVE action, which is how it works in a democracy.

if the FDA feels they need to regulate these devices, then they need to contact legislators and get a bill passed that expands their regulatory authority.

[bc3000]

25. I doubt it's even possible for them to ban the e-cigarettes

It's basically a battery and a steel wick. Can the FDA ban batteries? Can they ban a loop of stainless steel mesh? I doubt it. But if they did, people will just make the component parts available so you can make your own. These are very, very simple devices.

Now the nicotine juice... that's something else entirely. That probably does fall under their mandate and it wouldn't surprise me if they could ban it. But it also wouldn't surprise me if people found a way around it.

[jberryhill]

67. What is a syringe? What is an asthma inhaler?

A syringe is a piece of plastic with a hollow needle and a piston.

An asthma inhaler is a piece of plastic with a mouthpiece and an aerosol container receptacle.

They are both drug delivery devices, and within the scope of regulation by the FDA.

(and, yes, I vape a DSE901)

[M155Y_A1CH]

65. But do you crave less?

Is this helping with your addiction? I really want to quit but I'm not sure this can help. I've found that natural tobacco reduces my desire to chain smoke but I still have the urge to smoke. I want to quit painlessly but am not sure that this isn't just freebase nicotine (more addictive) like the cigarette makers use.

[jberryhill]

69. Here's the thing...

One of the reasons ecigs are disfavored is that they are not "smoking cessation" devices. They are nicotine maintenance devices.

Your question is like asking whether providing clean needles to heroin addicts helps them to quit.

Clean needles aren't provided to heroin addicts to help them quit. The clean needles are provided to help them not to get AIDS from using heroin.

Nicotine addiction per se is not as bad as the panoply of other things associated with cigarette smoke. It is still a risk to the heart and circulation.

[M155Y_A1CH]

72. Thanks, that makes sense n/t

[Doremus]

79. Yes. I am smoke free for 7 months after 33 years of a 2 pack a day habit.

If you enjoy your cigarettes, the inhaling/exhaling, the putting it to your mouth and puffing aspect, e-cigs will definitely help you quit the tobacco habit.

By buying consecutively lower strength cartridges, you can gradually reduce your addiction to nictotine until you're off it completely.

My only regret is that they didn't make these decades ago. I might still have healthy lungs.

[M155Y_A1CH]

82. Your habit sounds just like mine

I started when I was 12 and now I'm 50 and still puffing away. I've never noticed any health effects and I love the taste of good gold leaf tobacco but I feel like I should quit for several reasons first of which, it is no longer an acceptable vice. I can't enjoy a smoke after dinner out or at the bar and have been outcast to some smoking hole outside. I'm glad to hear that you've been able to quit smoking with this method but are you still using nicotine? I don't want to just change the form of my habit, I really want to quit but I'm a real loser when it comes to cold turkey. Have you kicked the nicotine habit yourself with this method or just suggesting it would be possible? I've tried other step-down methods with no success. It's always easier in the end to just smoke.

[Doremus]

88. I have gone without nicotine for 2+ weeks

It all depends how I feel. The nicotine cartridges have a better throat "hit" so I mostly use those with the lowest nicotine content. Other times I'm good with nicotine-free cartridges.

The main thing is, unlike patches or other step-down methods, after you've been on e-cigs awhile, analog cigarettes taste awful! The smoke is no longer a comforting friend but an alien, dirty irritant that STINKS. The longest I was ever able to stop before was 2 months. I craved cigarettes the entire time. I not only DON'T crave them now but the idea of inhaling one is disgusting.

If I'm still vaping 10 years from now I'm good with that.

[pamela]

83. Yes, that's the part that really amazes me.

I didn't originally buy an ecig to quit smoking. I bought one when my cig brand went up to 8 dollars a pack thinking I would just cut back a little. I cut back by about 75% almost immediately. I couldn't believe it. Now, I loved smoking and I continued to let myself smoke as much as I wanted I just honestly didn't want it very much after a few weeks. If I did want one, I just smoked one. I'm not very good at depriving myself of things I crave.

A few days ago, I ran out to do some errands and threw my ecig in my pocket. When I got home a few hours later, I realized I hadn't even taken it out of my pocket. I had completely forgotten about it. Now, errand running used to be a big smoking trigger for me-light up when you get in the car, light up when you leave the store, etc. It hadn't even crossed my mind. I had thought I was just replacing my habit but I realized then that I had actually broken much of the habit. Painlessly.

Good luck with whatever you decide and check out the ecig forum before purchasing. They are great there about helping newbies with questions. There are so many different ecig models now that it can be confusing. When I first started, the FDA had just begun to stop shipments so it was sometimes hard to get the products. These days, it's the complete opposite-there are almost too many choices.

[M155Y_A1CH]

84. Thanks for the encouragement

I am going to look into this right away.
:hi:

[pamela]

92. One more thing...

There are a lot of coupon codes for the sites listed on the ecig forum. If you decide which model you want and what supplier you are going to use, check the supplier forum at ECF to see if there is a coupon code. That can usually save you another 10-20%.

[M155Y_A1CH]

101. Hey, Thanks! n/t

[skids]

91. Broke the sensory feedback...

...You were able to give up the aromatic sensation. After that, all that was left was the nicotine itself -- none of the taste/smell association with the nicotine dose were there to reinforce the smoking pattern.

So quitting the nicotine was that much easier.

On the ruling it's probably for the best for the short term: the FDA should really have this jurisdiction -- nicotine is fairly poisonous, and a malfunction could be a serious thing. Plus there's the effect of any additives.

However, the FDAs current "abstinence only" attitude makes them act destructively towards any tobacco harm reduction strategies.

As a precedent it sucks but hopefully the e-cigs will help others cut down, quit, or just avoid a good chunk of the medical harm.

[jmowreader]

94. Nicotine is not "fairly poisonous." Where did you get that?

Nicotine is poisonous enough it needs to be regulated under the Chemical Warfare Convention. The lethal dose of nicotine for an adult human is 40-60mg taken dermally, Contrast that with the LD50 of sarin nerve agent at 1.7g taken dermally. IOW, it takes three times as much nerve gas as nicotine to kill you. (FWIW the inhaled LD50 of sarin is 100mg, which is still higher than nicotine.)

[skids]

95. Theraputic index is more appropriate here...

The weight or volume is for the most part beside the point when it comes to products that are prepackaged in therapeutic amounts. If people had vials of pure nicotine lying around, it would be a different story... as it is with many chemicals that are not intended for human consumption and often found gathered in amounts that are easily lethal.

For example, I would consider muscarine to be significantly more "poisonous" than nicotine because (if anyone actually used it), they would have to monitor the dose very closely or risk overdose.

This is not the case with most nicotine products -- even the strongest e-cigarette cartridges top off about 6% nicotine and come in discrete amounts. The refill bottles are more troubling, and could lead to ODs if drunk. What concentration level is safe for normal handling, what the maximum container size should be (it's too large at present IMO) and what warnings or safety measures or container requirements should be used, that's what the FDA should be deciding. But they should get off their ass and do it, since they seem to have endless energy to run a dubious study and then run around in the media yelling "booga booga!"

As far as I know the principle way people or pets die from nicotine overdose are:

1) Small animals or babies eating a cigar (absorb more nicotine orally.)
2) Administering by multiple routes (smoking or gum while also on the patch)

Now, if sometime decades from now people do, for some odd reason, routinely have vials of pure nicotine lying around, and they decide to look into the wayback machine and find my post and based only on my post on the Internet and deciding that something that is only "fairly poisonous" is safe to use as suntan lotion, remind me to feel bad about that.

[jmowreader]

96. Check out that e-cigarette forum...

These maniacs are making e-cigarette liquid out of PURE nicotine. In-fucking-sane.

[skids]

97. Yeah, all to save a few bucks...

If I try them I'll stick to buying cartridges. And I *do* have some limited experience with handling dangerous chemicals and good manual dexterity -- even so I'm not going near even some of the more dicey looking premixed solutions.

If we had a functioning FDA that didn't have its palms crossed, it would A) find a filler that is impeccable (and still "natural" so the nature nuts don't take things into their own hands) B) ban sales in a form that could spill enough on the skin to cause more than a bad experience, and publicize the dangers of doing your own extracts.

The e-cig forum seems to at least be trying to be responsible with pinned warnings and such, but developing well designed system parameters that are as fumble-proof as possible would be preferable.

However, just banning them outright when even with this risk they pose less danger than cigs (with their fire hazard) is just insane.

[bc3000]

9. You are completely wrong

If you know the best places to buy them, they are only a fraction of the cost. I started when cigarettes went up to around $5.50 a pack in florida and I've saved a ton of cash.

I'd estimate, assuming a cost of $50 a carton, that my e-cigarette habit is roughly half the price of smoking. And I buy the good nicotine juice. 1 new battery, 1 new atomizer and 30ml of liquid a month.

[bc3000]

10. n/a

[jberryhill]

48. You can go cheaper....

Instead of buying a new battery every month, if you are using a generic 901 ecigarette, get the USB pass-through battery (basically a 901 battery with a USB dongle), and one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Battery-Pack-Charger-iPhone/dp/B0017H4G0A

[G. L. Herter]

13. Costs me less than a dollar a day.

I buy the juice and refill. Beats the heck out of smoking, both financially and health-wise.

[Th1onein]

42. Absolutely INCORRECT.

I buy an electronic cigarette cartridge that lasts what two packs would last, if I were smoking. They cost $1.25 each, so that's about $0.63 per pack. I think I can deal with that, compared to $7.00 per pack of real cigarettes. And, I noticed something else: my voice is not hoarse when I smoke them. I've got back that young voice of my pre-smoking days, thirty some-odd years ago. Can't be too bad, if it does that for you.

The FDA needs to keeps it's fucking nose out of my business. It's great that you went cold turkey, but surely you can't wish that on everyone else, just because something like the e-cigarette wasn't around when you quit.

[Mojorabbit]

50. They helped me quit

The first month after quitting after 39 years of smoking a few draws off an electronic cig helped me get over the immediate craving and I then used it less and less each day. 7 months and counting now and I have not used mine since the first month nor smoked. They have their uses.

[Doremus]

78. Nope. Waaaaaay less than cigarettes.

For me, cost is about $50/mo., far less than the $300+ I was spending on my smoking habit.

Best of all, and worth any cost to me, is that I have been smoke-free since June 2 for the first time in over 33 years.

Well worth their cost and then some!

[bc3000]

12. I've been on e-cigarettes for almost 6 months now and I've never looked back

I use the Joye 510 (often rebranded with other names). I can't recommend it enough.

I've smoked (vaped) in movie theatres, bars, work, on transatlantic flights, while visiting a friend in the hospital... basically anywhere. As long as you keep it low and don't advertise that you are doing it, nobody really notices. There's no smell to give you away and the vapor doesn't linger like smoke does.

[SirRevolutionary]

45. Ahhh the Joye 510

Same here, it's my favorite. I know a lot of people who quit smoking and vape now. The FDA better not even attempt to ban ecigs. So many people quitting with these things, it's great. If the FDA starts crying over nicotine, well then they'll have to ban potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants, etc. Vape on!

[Alcibiades]

52. But that's the whole point!

These things are interfering with the profits of the companies who make patches and gum, companies that control the FDA, their captive regulator.

[Occulus]

54. They also interfere with the taxes people don't pay on smokes they aren't buying.

If these catch on seriously, we'll see states adding taxes to them to bring the prices up into the range of real cigarettes so they can generate the lost revenue for "necessary" programs funded by tobacco taxes.

Have I ever mentioned how colossally stupid an idea it is to fund necessary or desired state programs with taxes generated by a behavior you're trying to eliminate?

[M155Y_A1CH]

68. Tax distribution is not done fairly

I make my own cigarettes and up until last year I bought bulk natural cigarette tobacco. Suddenly the tax was increased by $20+ dollars a pound (about two cartons). So I now buy bulk natural pipe tobacco which is cut just a bit wider and $20+ less per pound. Why would one cut of tobacco cost so much more that another. Still I keep my costs down to about $15 per carton for filter cigarettes. That includes the fancy French tubes with activated charcoal filters.

[SirRevolutionary]

93. I'd like to see them try to tax ecigs

They don't have a leg to stand on logically. What's the logic for taxing the hell out of cigs? Second hand smoke and running up the health care bills?

Well vaping has zero health issues that I've heard of so far, so how can they tax the same people they nearly taxed to death with cigs once they quit smoking and moved to vaping? The only studies available so far show that vaping doesn't pose any health risks, and anyone would agree inhaling water vapor with nicotine is a lot healthier than inhaling burning organic matter, laced with who knows what kind of chemicals.

I'm sure they're pissed that a ton of tax money is going to dry up, but to that I say TS :-) It definitely is a stupid idea to tax the hell out of cigs and the only reason they did it in the first place was because they could. I think the figure is still some 20% of the population still smoke, so if they all quit and start vaping...there goes a lot of tax revenue.

They might want to transfer that tax back on to us vapers, but they don't have a leg to stand on. The FDA allows the patches and gum to be sold over the counter and they don't have ridiculously high taxes. They'll try, I'm sure, but ultimately they'll have to just move on to tax and marginalize a whole new group of tax payers for being obese, or being old, or being poor, whatever they come up with next.

[SirRevolutionary]

85. Phillip Morris has already jumped on the band wagon

They're trying to buy the company who originally invented the ecig. So once they start tossing their lobbying money around, we'll see where they head with it. For me, I haven't touched an analog (cigarette) since I started vaping and I feel great. Same with thousands of people out there, so if they mess with my vapes, it's on! It'll be a fight definitely, because they don't want to lose their tax revenue.

[Bryn]

100. Joye 510 is my fave!

I quit smoking when I switched over to e-cigarettes last March 2009 after smoking for 35 years! It's been great! No more stink, no more coughs, no more sinus infection, etc.....

[bloomington-lib]

15. I'd like to try these

I can never stick with patches or gum. Anyone have any success quitting or cutting down with these?

[bc3000]

17. go for it!

I read a lot on various forums before I started. Many more people seem to find success with these than the few I've seen that that do not. I've seen several people say that they are so much better that cigarettes gross them out in comparison. I'm not like that, but I never crave cigarettes. If I'm with a group of friends I may bum one smoke for old times sake, but it never causes any desire to start again. I just like the e-cigarettes more.

In the end, I think e-cigarettes are less of a "quit smoking" tool than a "continue to smoke without the horrible side effects and super high costs" tool. Sure, I could gradually reduce the potency of the nicotine in the juice until I was at zero, but I have no desire to do that. I like smoking.

I haven't been in a 7/11, once a routine part of almost every day, in almost 6 months.

[bloomington-lib]

28. Any recommendations?

I'm on the Smoking Everywhere website right now looking through their products. Do you or anyone else recommend a certain company?

[bc3000]

35. Yes! Here's what you do.

I'd recommend against Smoking Everywhere. They have a very bad reputation on the vaping forums.

Here's what you do: decide on a model. I think the Joye 510 is a great one to start on and plenty of people sell it. At that point, you are just shopping for price. Realize that it is often rebranded with other names. The Tecc Titan and the Yeti are the same exact model as the Joye 510.

The following advice is if you do go for a 510 because that's where my experience lies:

Get a starter kit. They usually come with two batteries and two atomizers and a plug in charger. Popular sites include altsmoke.com and totallywicked-eliquid.com, but remember that there are a ton of sites out there selling the same thing so you can just shop around on price. Get the manual battery not the automatic. You can always try the automatic later, but it has several drawbacks so don't let it sour your initial experience.

Get some extra juice to start, probably around 30ml will last you long enough to decide if it's for you or not.

Watch the 3rd and 4th videos on this page: http://www.innovapor.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=23

Accessories: I personally think the USB passthrough is a useless piece of crap, but the PCC (personal carrying case charger) is a godsend.

Check out the e-cigarette forums: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/

[Doremus]

80. Smoking Everywhere. Is that esmokestop.com?

If so, I've been using them from 7 months with no problems whatsoever. In fact, the site was recommended to me originally at the ecig forum you linked to above.

[bjb]

86. Thanks for all this information

[Abq_Sarah]

98. I just ordered the Joye 510

Starter kit tonight. I'm tired of spending an outrageous sum, the majority of which is taxes, on cigarettes. I'm also tired of my clothes smelling like smoke but it's the tax issue that really pisses me off.

[pamela]

44. I concur with a lot of what bc3000 said.

The 510 is a fine model but the battery life is short so get a PCC (personal charging case) or you will quickly run out of charged up batteries with a 510. Altsmoke, Innovaper and Totally Wicked are good sources for the 510.

I'm also a big fan of the KR808 models that are sold by Vapor for Life, Nhaler and Puresmoker. This model is very low maintenance and delivers a strong hit-more like a cig than any other model I've tried. It consists of a battery and something called a cartomizer which is a liquid cartridge with a built in atomizer. The cartomizers can be a bit more expensive then the other methods because you can't refill them a lot. (They are meant to be disposable but they actually can be refilled a few times.) I'm also not a big fan of the 510 passthrough but I LOVE my KR808 passthrough. I use it when I'm on the computer so I don't have to fool with charging batteries.

I strongly urge anyone interested in ecigs to check out the ecig forum and do a lot of research before buying. It will save you a lot of money in the long run as there are a lot of different models and there will surely be one to fit your needs. DON'T buy from Njoy or Smoking Everywhere or Blu. They are more expensive than the sites BC and I mentioned and the product is inferior.

[SirRevolutionary]

46. Yes, the Joye 510 is excellent

There are other good ones, but too many of them are crappy.

[DoctorMyEyes]

89. I too recommend the 510 model

Don't waste your money on a "Smoking Everywhere" ecig like I did.
Cignot.com has about the best price you'll find on a 510 from a US supplier and they're quick and friendly too. They usually have 510 starter kits for about $35.00

[pamela]

32. My local convenience store clerk thought I had died.

Seriously! I stopped in around Christmas for something and the clerk was so happy to see me. He said he thought something bad had happened to me. I didn't know whether to be flattered or embarrassed.

[OregonBlue]

19. My sister went from strong liquid to milder and finally to no nicotine at all liquid. She still

"vapes" but she says it was much better. Only getting nicotine, not any of the other tars and chemicals. She is almost ready to stop all together. It took her about a year but she did not gain weight doing it this way so is very pleased.

[Jefferson23]

18. What the heck is an electronic cigarette?

[bc3000]

22. here's a video intro

I don't buy from these guys, but they have videos on this page will explain things:

http://www.innovapor.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=23

I use the 510, the one featured in the third and fourth videos.

Plus, I think that guy's accent is pretty cool.

[Statistical]

23. wiki is your friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cigarette

Basically a system that atomizes a liquid containing nicotine and flavoring to simulate the effects of smoking without smoke, tar, etc.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

24. It releases a nicotine-laced vapor but without the carcinogens.

[Jefferson23]

37. Thank you to all three, Starbucks Anarchist, Statistical and bc3000 for the terrific video.

I never heard of such a thing before, lol.

Sounds like it would be a good idea for the FDA to check it out, there appears to be legitimate concerns.

[Paper Roses]

62. I never heard of them either. Is it a pretend cig filled with some

nicotine solution? Puff away without the smoke, just get the old nicotine in your system? Seems to me that if that worked, it should be easy enough to taper down to a point the you can stop altogether. Anyone found that to be the case?

Since the death of my husband, I find myself heading to my secret hiding place and pulling out a Carlton when no-one is around.

Got to stop this but I have not been successful. Too many stresses in my life right now.

Maybe something like this would be a solution.

Years ago when I was a real smoker, I tried the gum and patches. They made me too jittery.
Managed to quit cold turkey and was OK for years. No longer the case. This type of thing might be a help. Any thoughts?

[Jefferson23]

64. Sorry to hear of your life circumstances, but I'm not a smoker and I guess that

is perhaps one reason I never heard of electronic cigarettes. But if you read at the links that were offered to me in the previous posts, you may be better able to decide if it is a good alternative for you.

Best of luck to you!

[John Q. Citizen]

73. "I need a unit to sample and hold

but not the other one,
new design new design." -N. Young

"Doing the electric banana
is going to be the sudden craze" -Donavon.



What the heck, indeed?

[Robb]

26. Foolish ruling.

I'm a believer in the product, sounds great. But it's still a nicotine delivery system, same as a patch or gum or lozenge. The FDA found many of the "juice" manufacturers had little or no quality control in terms of how much nicotine was being delivered, or what other ingredients were in there. It varied quite a bit.

I'm sorry, but this is the "D" in FDA. The devices themselves, maybe not. But the juice should have some oversight.

[bc3000]

29. I'd be all for juice regulation, as long as there's no ban in the meantime.

Hundreds of thousands of people are using these things to break the habit of an addiction that is known to be extremely harmful. If the FDA wants to test and regulate the juice being sold that's fine with me, as long as their actions don't materialize as a ban that would be nothing but a gift to the tobacco industry and force people back to a product that is immensely more harmful.

You know they sell marijuana vaporizers too right? Why is there no uproar about them? Might it have something to do with basic common sense allowing people to realize they are healthier, or at least no more harmful, than smoking marijuana? Or might it be because there is no powerful marijuana lobby attempting to crush an alternative to their pre-packaged marijuana joints?

In this country we allow toys coated with lead and other carcinogens to routinely fail into the hands and mouths of our children. Maybe we should do something about that rather than attempt to take a product away from adults who are perfectly capable of deciding what they want to put in their mouths and lungs.

[Robb]

34. I agree, on all points. nt

[pamela]

38. I don't care if they regulate the juice, either.

I do worry about impurities and also some of the flavorings. I would just hope that they would still have reasonable choices in nicotine levels. I fear they would make the level so low that no one would stick with it. I started off using 12mg & 18mg and was still having cig cravings. When I bumped it up to 24mgs, I was fine. Now I'm back down to 12 most of the time but I don't think I would have stuck with it if I hadn't had the 24.

[naaman fletcher]

63. Where can I get marijuana vaporizers?

[Flaneur]

75. You don't know already?

https://www.vaporstore.com/index.php?PARTNER=yahooppc

[slay]

30. What about the electronic joint - is that legal yet?

Sigh.. Mmmmm.. Olympic joint..

[onehandle]

31. Smoking laws are being extended to electronic cigarettes.

So smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Just not in public.

[pamela]

33. I rarely vape mine in public...

and never in places where regular smoking is prohibited. Some e-cig users really try to push the limits with this but I think that's a mistake. I'm not a real in-your-face kind of person, though. I didn't smoke much in public either.

[bc3000]

36. I do, but I concur

I use it all the time in public, but I keep it low. They are very easy to hide. I let my pinky cover the light and I hold the vapor in or blow it into my hand. Why risk having someone tell you that you can't use it when using it is so easy to hide?

Some people are just attention whores.

[pamela]

39. Some folks have been working on a "stealth vape" liquid.

lmao at that. Vapers are certainly creative.

[Flaneur]

76. On what basis? No smoke, no foul.

[onehandle]

77. 'nicotine-laced vapor'

Surprisingly, most people don't want an addictive drug sprayed into the air. Smoke or not.

Go figure.

[Matariki]

40. I'm curious on the reasoning behind trying to ban public use of these

since there is no second hand smoke, it seems more of a puritanical motive than anything.

[NYC_SKP]

47. Unless the still powerful Tobacco lobby is behind some of this.

Stranger things have happened.

:shrug:

[pamela]

49. Second-hand vapor

ASH has been the big gun behind the public use bans. They claim that the vapor may contain nicotine so people would be exposed to second-hand nicotine. They, and others, also claim that allowing these in places where smoking is prohibited confuses smokers. They see someone doing what looks like smoking and think it must be okay to smoke there so they light up.

I have been stunned at the reaction of anti-smoking groups to the ecig. I can see calling for more testing but these groups have been virulently anti-ecig. They don't want them tested they want them BANNED. You would think that anti-smoking groups would be thrilled at the potential of this product to replace smoking for so many but they have been the biggest opponents of ecigs.

[jberryhill]

70. What's even more bizarre....

...is that if the point was about carcinogens, why are they basing the allegation of harm on "second hand nicotine"?

Their point about confusing smokers is just strange. If someone lights up a cigarette in a place where they shouldn't, that person should be stopped.

[Ricky99]

58. Here's one

The nicotine patch and nicotine gum industry is a $3 billion business worldwide ............and the success rate after one year is a measly 5%

Think Pfizer has an interest in seeing these banned?

[Bryn]

99. Yes

Pfizer wanted to see e-cigarettes banned because e-cigs are gaining popularity and they work. The nicotine patch, pills and nicotine gum have a higher rate of failure. Pfizer is losing billions of dollars when more and more smokers turn to e-cigarettes. I quit 35 years of smoking when I switched over to e cigs last March so it's been almost a year! My coughs, sinus problems, acid reflex, etc. have gone away.

[sam sarrha]

41. ...1200 people die every day from Tobacco addiction. 1080 of those were addicted as children, 540

of the 1080 addicted as children were addicted at the age of 12, or younger.!!!.. at

so why is weed illegal.. never killed anyone... oh, i forgot about the cotton lobby, paper industry lobby, pharma lobby.. and worst of all the Petroleum industry.. because clean burning Hemp oil could free us from foreign oil..

[madville]

51. They will figure out a way to tax them heavily

They will figure out a way to tax the crap out of the liquid or cartridges, give them a little time. They will at least make it more expensive than regular smoking. The government doesn't like competition and the Ecig cuts into their tax revenue.

[Dogmudgeon]

53. They will be banned ... soon

"Nic Water" and "Nic Lite" were http://media.www.theloquitur.com/media/storage/paper226/news/2006/08/31/News/Nic-Lite.Distribution.Halted-2266128.shtml">banned a few years ago. Nicotine drinks allowed smokers to stay in non-smoking bars and not develop cravings. As soon as it became even semi-popular ... BOOM! And Nic Lite even billed itself as being "homeopathic". (At 4 mg/bottle, it was probably close to it.)

Money is involved, of course. Not only will tobacco interests be hard-hit, but also the medical-pharmaceutical industry will lose out on their lucrative nicotine replacement "therapies". So, the e-cigs must go. Unless several million American smokers convert to "vaping" NOW, and plan to raise holy hell with the FDA, it will happen quickly, easily, and in the name of The Children.

The FDA should be there to protect us from fraud, greed, product adulteration, and malice, not "vice".

--d!

[Ricky99]

57. Yeah Right

It will be up to each State to impose a ban through legislation .........each State. If the FDA COULD have banned them they would have a year ago and no one would have cared. Today and one million users later .......the FDA wouldn't dare. In another year from now it will become political suicide for any politician to spearhead a ban.

[boppers]

55. Most of the complaints I've seen were purely emotional.

If it glows, and a person can puff, it must be evil!

Meanwhile, different companies are also making breath strips, lozenges, flavor sticks....

I'm predicting a history similar to caffeine.

[Ricky99]

56. A great supplier

These guys have some of the best products and prices .........

http://www.beyondecigs.com/index.php

[anjaleeab]

59. also find some moredetails here

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100114-712528.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

[pinniped]

60. The .gov is mad because e-cigs require no tax stamps.

.

[jberryhill]

66. Bingo

I wouldn't put it in as simple terms as that, but ecigs do raise a question about how to recover the lost tax revenue which, ultimately is based on nicotine addiction.

[SidDithers]

61. As long as they're not producing any second hand smoke...

"smoke" away!

Sid

[dipsydoodle]

71. Since they banned the UK's red Smarties

I'll believe anything. Wankers.

[Romulox]

74. Isn't HEART DISEASE (caused by nicotine) the primary danger of smoking?

If so, how do these e-cigs help? :shrug:

[JimWis]

81. I recently bought an electronic cigarette. I cut my real cigarette

smoking from a pack a day, to about 3 or 4 real cigarettes per day. I still enjoy a real one after a meal. But any other time I get the urge, I take a few puffs on my e-cig.

[w4rma]

87. So cigarrettes aren't food or a drug? So is it the ATF that has control over them, instead? Huh? nt