India to push US on social security pact

[Newsjock]

Source: The Times of India

In a move that could nip the current Indo-US bonhomie in the bud, the Indian government is likely to link progress on the social security agreement with the US to that of the Bilateral Investment Promotion Agreement (BIPA). The ministry of overseas Indian affairs will be taking up the matter with the ministry of external affairs.

The government has been pursuing the social security agreement — that will allow Indians working under short-term contracts in the US to secure exemption from contributing to the American social security system — since 2006 without much success.

... The US social security system mandates 40 quarters of contribution to earn any benefit which is considered grossly inequitable as the visa regime that governs the residence and work permit of non-immigrants in the US allows a person a maximum stay of six years in case of H1B and seven years in case of L1 visas. Government sources said this was not in line with the international practice in social security anywhere in the world.

Read more: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-to-push-US-on-social-security-pact/articleshow/5462979.cms

[JDPriestly]

1. So, don't have Indians working in the U.S. I'm fine with that.

So many of our people are unemployed. Why in the world aren't we training Americans rather than importing Indians? If an American is employed, the American must pay into our Social Security. If an Indian is employed he doesn't have to? No way.

[sce56]

2. The people that did that work were over qualified, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. n/t

[Skittles]

8. Americans are already trained - they're just unemployed

[pattmarty]

12. Bingo. I have been bitching about the H1B type visas forever........

............I am not against immigration, but it is really fucking stupid when you have good paying jobs available and you don't fill them with American citizens first. These companies take advantage of these programs because they get advantages from the government and they get to PAY the Immigrants less money. Fuck 'em, consider it a "penalty" for working here then.

[ekwhite]

15. Amen

The H1B program has been a means for high-tech corporations to shaft American workers by substituting lower-paid foreign workers for American workers who would be paid more for the same job. These workers are mainly from India because of the combination of a good education system and low pay, but it doesn't matter where the H1B employee comes from, the program is designed to screw American workers.

[ChangoLoa]

30. Cut the right-wing BS, don't disguise it as an anti-corp logic

"Don't have Indians working in the US? Bingo?!"
WTF?

The federal state (you, American tax payers) should be paying taxes to the Indian government for receiving the benefits of their investment in human capital. The wealth created by their work stays in the US. 3rd World countries are giving you FOR FREE their best qualified people and, when they go to the US, they don't receive the same benefits than Americans while paying the same contributions.

[pattmarty]

42. No. If you want to "blame" , blame the origin countries................

........Just about every country on fucking earth has protections in place. Ie, tariffs, immigration policies, taxes and on and on. What the US companies want is to exploit whomever they can so their products get produced for as little as possible to sell at as high a profit as they can get. Keep your "investment in human capital" and we SHOULD start doing the same, only our government is now beholden to corporate interests which hurts immigrants AND US citizens.

[ChangoLoa]

54. What do you suggest to us, 3rd World countries, for "keeping our investment in human capital"?

That we stop allowing people to leave the country?

The fact is that this people are creating jobs and wealth in your country, not stealing them from Americans. I'm not really defending the tax exemption here, I'm saying some 3rd World countries should all agree on creating a common tax on qualified emigration that corps or states should pay. Brain drain = free gift.

[pattmarty]

60. And, there shouldn't be unfair to workers and poor people trade..........

............agreements like Nafta either. I really believe eventually there will be a more united world maybe something like the EU someday in the future, but until that day countries should protect their assets, people and interests. Maybe I am a little worldly naive (as are 99% of ALL Americans). The US is one of the biggest reasons that the economic situations is what it is in a lot of the world. Most of the people on this board have similar feelings. We want "change" (here and abroad) and we thought we finally got some, but alas we have deceived ourselves again. Just some idle brain farts from the "land of the free".:sarcasm:

[Romulox]

44. Maybe re-read the article (a bit slower this time.) US citizens must work 40 quarters to receive SS

This is the same rule applied to the cheap labor for which you advocate. :hi:

[ChangoLoa]

52. Well... what does "short-term" mean?

"that will allow Indians working under short-term contracts in the US to secure exemption from contributing to the American social security system"

[Romulox]

53. I don't understand your question. It is not in US workers' interest to provide

an economic incentive to hiring cheap workers to short-term contracts (emphasis yours). Since both employers and employees contribute to Social Security, waiving this tax for foreign guest workers will make them cheaper for US employers to employ, providing a perverse economic incentive in a country with double digit unemployment and secular inequality. :hi:

[JDPriestly]

63. If the Indians don't like our rules, let them stay home.

We don't want them in the first place. Nothing against Indians, but we have extremely high unemployment and everyone who works in this country has to pay those taxes. If we work in other countries, we have to pay their taxes. That's the way it works. The Social Security tax in our country works this way. It is the price you pay for the privilege of working in our country. If you don't like it, leave and go do your own thing.

[JDPriestly]

61. India is a country with a growing economy. Our alleged growth is just a lie.

These people should be in India building India. I know lots of IT people capable of doing the jobs. This is just a way to pay off people in the Indian government. Meanwhile in this country, the Senate is starting to consider how to cut Social Security. It would not be necessary to cut Social Security if we had lots of jobs, good-paying jobs, here in the U.S. But our jobs are outsourced to China, India and elsewhere and still they are bringing cheap intellectual labor to our country to push our wages down.

No, a thousand times no.

[No Elephants]

87. Nonsense.. Third world countries are giving the U.S. their best people for free?

If I choose to go live and work in Mexico, that is my choice, made for my reasons. The U.S. would not be "giving" me to Mexico because it does not own me in the first place. I am not the slave of the U.S., nor does India own any human being.

[ChangoLoa]

96. It's a metaphor

If your state spent a certain amount of money for making you a highly qualified worker (the Indian education system is mostly public or subsidized) and millions like you are deciding to leave abroad, the country is losing part of its investment, while the workers' new country is receiving the yield without having invested in their formation. The yield is the wealth they create with their work.

Of course, I'm not talking about forcing people to stay. I'm talking about giving more incentives to foreign companies recruiting in India to invest in the educational sectors they are aiming at.

[OhioChick]

39. Agreed. n/t

[zaj]

28. Do you know how to get more American's to study Vector Calculus and Differential Equations?

I know for a fact that America's aerospace industry would *LOVE* to have a flood of American's studying advanced math and engineering.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Make sure that there are jobs for them

As a former college professor, I know that students keep their eyes on what employers are asking for and what the alumni slightly older than themselves are finding on the job market.

If I were Labor Czarina, I'd make companies prove that there were no American candidates at any price before I'd let them import workers.

[pattmarty]

50. Yep. But you know that ain't gonna happen. The "new" US slogan.....

.............should be "profits first, people last". There is no more corporate conscience (if there ever was one). You know what I hear more and more today than ever before? "They choose to live that way" or "they should have gone out and got a decent education". I get so pissed off living in this country today.

[zaj]

73. There are jobs for highly American skilled engineering with Masters or PHD's

That's not a problem, even during a down economy.

[pattmarty]

45. Then beat the shit out of OUR politicians so our education system..............

........is comparable to Western Europe's. But no, instead it is going the direction of corporate education (charters) to churn out more McWorkers. Maybe we can send some of our undereducated McWorkers to Nigeria or Ethiopia.:sarcasm:

[zaj]

74. Improving our education system to produce more kids who want to study advanced math....

... is a LOT easier said than done.

[pattmarty]

80. You know what? You're right. But, the same can be said for................

...........healthcare, the economy, deficit and etc. This country is just as fucked up as the "old" Soviet Union. We basically have a one party system here and not a fucking thing that needs to be done gets done. We all thought we finally elected someone that would start to get shit done, but alas we got fucking fooled again.

[No Elephants]

89. Isn't everything a lot easier said than done? E.g., putting a man on the moon "in this decade."

[Romulox]

46. Don't outsource half the jobs that require that expertise, and undercut the other half

with cheap guest workers? :shrug:

[zaj]

75. The American engineering bubble burst in the 70/80's when...

... it was no longer exciting to be part of the space race, etc.

Sorry, but there are a *lot* of engineering jobs available, we just don't have American who were willing to study the subjects needed to do the work.

You can't just snap your fingers and say "create more PHD's in optical engineering".

You have to change the way kids 10-14 think about the hard subjects like math and physics. As a nation, we aren't motivated to do that.

H1B's are a response to the failure of our nations for 30 years now.

[No Elephants]

90. "As a nation, we aren't motivated to do that." Yet you say you know for a fact

that we want Americans with that knowledge. Seems to be a disconnect somewhere.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. Reduce student visas so that american students have the opportunity?

Just an idea.

Most H1B's transition directly from student visas. The foreign worker who took your job? He is also the reason your son wasn't accepted to a decent US college.

[zaj]

76. American student's aren't interested in PHD programs in engineering...

If you cut student visas, it won't suddenly grow American student interest in becoming math geeks.

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Just another of the "jobs americans won't do". Right?

And news flash, most H1Bs are not PHD's.

[JDPriestly]

64. You get Americans to study those subjects by going into the schools

and telling them about the jobs that are available. Then you participate in educating teachers to teach the subjects you want students to learn. It is particularly disgusting that the defense industry rakes in the profits and then sits on its you know what when it comes to supporting education to whatever extent it needs to educate kids to love and do well in mathematics.

I had a lot of talent for mathematics. I scored extremely high in it on college entrance exams, but never understood the point in it. My husband is brilliant and was a computer technician in the military. But no one was there to let us know that there was an interesting career direction that-a-way. It was made to look as boring as possible. So, that is why American kids do not study math. (In fact I have a sister with a PhD in a math-related field and she can't get a job. No lack of talent there.) So, the idea that you have to import Indians to do that work is without basis in fact.

[zaj]

77. The US Defense industry is probably working the hardest because...

... they often *have* to find American engineers to do the work.

There's surely room to improve, but the defense sector is doing quite a bit, actually.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

91. lolz, lk y wud I want 2 do dat?

MTV is going to turn my Facebook page into a reality show! Duh!

[JDPriestly]

66. zaj, I have a daughter who loves calculus and who has a

degree in a math-related field from one of the very, very best technical universities in the country. When she graduated from college, she wanted to give something back. So she walked over to the local public high school and offered to tutor calculus. She thought it would be fun and that she could convey some of her love of math to the students. At the high school, she was met by a security guard who, at first tried to turn her away (she looked quite young). She never heard back from the school.

If the defense contractors and other engineering firms want to encourage more American students to study math, they should set up a volunteer organization so that people who love math and are competent in it can volunteer to tutor students IN THE SCHOOLS or during summer school. We learn to love things because people we love love those things and we have fun enjoying those things with the people we love.

I was the only student in my class who liked my geometry teacher. She had no personality, said very little, never explained anything. That was just perfect for me because I never needed an explanation. I just wanted to sit in class and do my geometry problems. That's what I did. I always had my homework done in class. That way I could practice music in the evenings. Find kids like that. Don't expect them to enter contests. They aren't necessary the kinds of kids who want a lot of attention for their nerdiness. In fact, they may not have the best grades. Grades and lots of publicity may just turn them off. They are as likely as not to be excessively, painfully shy.

And while you are at it, get rid of the "nerds are odd and boring" idea out there that Hollywood and the media sell. I know a lot of nerds and they are the least boring of all people. They don't talk about movie stars night and day. They may not even think about them much. You just have to get to know them.

So getting the nerdy mathematicians out there with students as tutors is the best way to encourage talented kids to go into math. A lot of nerdy types hunger for social contact with other intelligent people but don't want to have to stand in front of a science exhibit and the whole student body to get it. Personal contact is certainly an easy way to get talented kids to go into math.

[zaj]

78. Best post on the subject so far...

Lots of truth in what you are saying.

It's not a short term solution. H1B visas are a response to the failure of American's to inspire students to do the hard work and love problem solving. We *can't* get rid of the H1B visa program or we will drive the future of innovation off our own shores *faster* than it is now.

We have to become competitive again.

[amandabeech]

79. Pay them more and get the word out that those companies will hire native-born Americans,

even those whose grandparents were born here.

Also make sure that the American born feel welcome in science and engineering departments. Unfortunately, I've met too many young scientists and engineers personally through a house mate who are more than ready to tell everyone within hearing range that Asians are much smarter and harder working than Americans. I can only imagine what they were like in class and what they were like as TAs. I know that I would not want to study with them.

That's what I hear from my friends who have kids in college.

I'm happy to be called a racist for writing what I hear, so go ahead.

[zaj]

86. I spent 6 years in an engineering program. and I can tell you...

... that's the most ignorant excuse I've ever heard.

Engineering programs lose the interest of American kids by 8th grade. By that age, kids have generally decided whether they have an interest in math or not. And Math is the single biggest determinate of success in an engineering program.

If kids choose easy math in Middle School and High School, they won't choose engineering.

It has *NOTHING* to do with feeling welcome in an engineering program.

[No Elephants]

88. Yep. Same way the U.S. encouraged U.S. citizens to study math and science five minutes

after it learned of the Sputnik launch. Make school affordable. And don't give the jobs away to someone else, or offshore them.

[Stumbler]

3. *Sigh*

Why are we such a backwards nation? An official unemployment number of 10%, which grows closer to 20% when you count underemployment & those who've given up looking, caused in part by our hemorrhaging jobs overseas since Clinton signed NAFTA, AND we still import a 50k-strong workforce because our population isn't smart enough thanks to our underfunding higher education. Now that imported labor, much like the upper class, feel they shouldn't have to pay SS taxes?
At the risk of sounding xenophobic, protectionist & isolationist, I think we really should consider ending the H1B visa program. It's making less & less sense everyday.

[OregonBlue]

4. If they don't want to pay the tax they are free to go home at any time.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. This isn't news, the US has "totalization agreements" with many countries

but per usual, it is only India that brings out the haymarket anarchists,

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/agreements_overview.html

[cosmicone]

6. These people act like freepers any time India is mentioned ...

The issue is simple ... if one contributes, one should get the resultant benefits. Forcing someone to contribute and deny them the benefits is not equitable at all whether they are people from India or Mars.

Social Security is not a conventional tax -- it is an insurance/investment program paid with the idea that one will get benefits from it later in life.

However, the freeper types always frame it as "go home if you don't want to pay our taxes." No one is refusing to pay taxes. Indians and other foreigners working in the US do pay federal, state and local income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes and various levies at the local level.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

7. I find the rhetoric irritating,

You could be a C student from the worst state school in the country and you will have practically no difficulty finding work abroad, Americans can work abroad with ease, never being challenged on their credentials or treated like potential illegal immigrants. But extend the same courtesy to foreigners, even with an absurd and abusive bureaucratic process and its "They took our JERBS!"

Meanwhile if you are a resident of Australia, Singapore or Chile and you have both a pulse and no criminal record you can get an H1B or equivalent with ease, where is the unholy rage at the Australians with E3 visas?

Why are Australians and european-like Asians and South Americans not worthy of the same violent rage?

[cosmicone]

22. It is irritating.

It is stereotyping and demonizing Indians when citizens of other countries have had these benefits for decades. Perhaps because said other countries are from Europe or Europe-like-Asia.

[Lasher]

41. Well your race baiting is pretty annoying too.

The US has totalization agreements with 24 other countries. There are reasons to conclude, however, that such an arrangement with India would not be as advantageous for the US as are these 24.

Economies in all these nations are more prosperous than that of India. I will use per capita GDP as a rule of thumb for comparison. Of these 24, all are ranked at 56 and above out of 181 nations listed by the International Monetary Fund. The US is 6. India is 130.

And unlike these 24 nations, India does not have a social security system that is comparable to that in the US. There is therefore little potential for parity in a totalization agreement between the US and India.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. It is a legitimate question, why is there no outrage over the E3 visa given to Australians?

Comicone already said it best: "Social Security is not a conventional tax -- it is an insurance/investment program paid with the idea that one will get benefits from it later in life."

Where is the outrage at the 10,500 Australians getting the E3 visa each year?

And the E3 is even worse than the H1B because their spouses can work too, stealing even more jerbs.

[Lasher]

55. Comicone? It's been awhile since I've seen a typo that was so amusing.

The US Social Security system also provides support for the disabled and for survivors. You are correct to say that it is a social insurance program that provides benefits later in life. But what you don't seem to understand is, this is a US program with a primary purpose of benefiting US citizens and legal residents.

A US/India totalization agreement would facilitate the transfer of billions of dollars to prop up social programs in India. It's hard to imagine how this would help the US Social Security program meet its objectives.

Now run along with your Australian straw man.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

58. How is it a stawman, why is it okay for Australians to steal jobs, but not Indians?

What is so special about Indians with H1B visas? Shouldn't Australians with E3's, Canadians with TN1's and Singaporeans and Chileans with H1B1's be equally deserving of incredulous wrath?

The US India arrangement is no different than any other and is not intended to be a reflection of the Indian welfare state, only that a high number of Indians are working in the United States on a temporary basis. These agreements are just a reflection of a highly mobile global workforce.

[treestar]

71. I think we know the answer to that one

They don't steal jobs anyway - but no amount of quoting the laws will convince these Indiaphobes that the laws force the employer to pay the prevailing wage and to show that the job market is not impacted negatively for U.S. citizens. Even if they are convinced of that, then they start claiming 100% fraud in the program. But the stereotype in their head is an Indian IT worker. 21000 out of work Americans lose to those Aussies by their own rabid rhetoric, but no matter and no complaints on that score. Hmmmm.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

81. uhh... it has to be the folksy accent... right?

I can't think of another possibility...

[bananas]

9. You act like a freeper anytime Pakistan is mentioned

[closeupready]

25. "like"?

And it's heartening that I'm not the only one here to notice how ugly his hatred for Pakistan and Pakistani civilians is. Thank you.

[OhioChick]

57. +1...Speaks Volumes n/t

[pattmarty]

13. Then what about the fucking poor Mexicans? The illegals pay............

..............into the system and they don't get shit. Fuck the "imported" IT people, let them pay the "tax".

[cosmicone]

19. So being here illegally is the same as being here legally? n/t

[pattmarty]

24. When it comes to the "payroll tax", I fucking guess so. There is a............

...............fucked up line when talking about legal and illegal labor, who it hurts/helps. Personally, if you work here you pay the "tax", just consider it a "lucky tax" because you get to work in the USA but my neighbor or myself can't.

[Juche]

23. I don't have kids, but I pay taxes to fund K-12 education

I pay for all the couples that do have kids. I also pay SCHIP, AFDC and medicaid for all those families with children. I don't mind. I don't call for exemptions.

A big problem with this is it'll make it even easier for corporations to screw over domestic workers by importing labor from overseas who they can pay less and threaten more easily. You can't threaten to deport a US worker, but you can threaten an H1-B visa.

Lower wages + no FICA taxes + easier to threaten/control = employer's dream

[ChangoLoa]

27. Exactly +1

The US should be paying taxes for the gains without investment they get thanks to brain drain.

[mbperrin]

95. Good! Then get my Social Security back for me. I contributed

to SS from 1968 to 1997 when I entered teaching. At retirement, BECAUSE I am a teacher, I can only draw my teacher retirement, nothing from the 29 years I paid in to the SS system.

Compare that to my cousin, who draws a pension for his Army career, a pension for his Post Office career following that, and Social Security from his 15 years in insurance sales.

I paid, and I will get nothing.

[Romulox]

31. You have the exact same concern for US workers as do posters on that *other* site.

:hi:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

49. No, I am just an American working abroad who doesn't hate foreign workers

Americans are welcome virtually everywhere, there is no reason we shouldn't be equally as accommodating.

[Romulox]

51. Supporting American workers being tantamount to "hating foreign workers" is vile framing

straight out of the playbook of that "other" site. Like I said... :hi:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

59. I see just as much stupid xenophobia around here as there,

[Romulox]

62. And nearly as much corporatism/neoliberal economics. nt

[NJGeek]

99. F H1-B and the horse they rode in on

take a hike if you don't want to pay the tax

[LaPera]

10. Corporation should start paying - They won't, so we'll have to pay....

via our taxes we have and we'll always pay for them....we always do for "our" corporations who expand to other economies, (to bypass American workers, unions & environmental standards)...We don't care we'll pay to lose our jobs....while the corporate profiteers tell us to "fuck off"...Corporations don't give a shit about America or patriotism, for them (or workers) only the best deal for their profits...As we are hurting and dying....republican fucks! We'll end up paying for others SS!

[cosmicone]

20. You won't be paying for their SS ...

They are not eligible because they can never accumulate enough quarters. The way it stands right now is that they are paying for your SS. If changed, they will pay nothing and get nothing. Sounds fair to me!

[ChangoLoa]

32. Not even fair yet

The US should be paying India. They are getting free qualified workers!

[Ganja Ninja]

11. So now we're not only bringing in foreigners to take jobs from Americans

we're going to give them a tax break too! :banghead:

[shadowknows69]

18. Well once you're on the way to destroying your own middle class

You might as well go for it full bore.

[groundloop]

14. This is about more than being "fair", it's also about keeping our Social Security system solvent

If Indian citizens work in the US and don't pay social security taxes, they are taking jobs away from US citizens who will be paying that tax, therefore cutting into funding for social security. If I were to seek employment in another country I would full well expect to pay whatever taxes their citizens paid. Aside from the fact that I don't like employers importing cheap foreign labor to take jobs away from US citizens, I see no reason that those foreign workers can't pay the same taxes as US workers.

[Justyce]

21. Agree. nt

[1776Forever]

16. Just another shovel of dirt in the face of our dwindling middle class!

I am VERY upset about the Corporate greed and those that look the other way when it comes to our so called American Dream for ALL OUR people! When Social Security was set up it was meant for the younger workers to contribute as the older ones had and pass it down. Now with more and more jobs going overseas it seems those companies could care less about our country! It has to start somewhere and I am no longer going to Walgreen's because of them shipping some of their jobs overseas! It is time to stand up to this theft of our citizens futures!

[Joanne98]

17. Get rid of the H1B visas!

[AzDar]

33. +1

[ChromeFoundry]

56. +2 n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. +3 nt

[Veruca Salt]

98. +4

[closeupready]

82. If it is a program rife with the abuses we've seen over the last few years, then absolutely.

n/t

[Angry Dragon]

26. Then let them stay home

I am sure there are people here that could use the work and money.

[Romulox]

29. In what way is it "fair" to make it cheaper/more attractive for US corps. to hire foreigners? nt

[blue97keet]

34. Corporations get tax breaks for moving overseas, so the guestworkers

they bring into this country to take our jobs get a piece of our social security pie as well! It is a triple whammy against our workers and taxpayers.

[Mark D.]

35. Where Are The So-Called "Conservatives" on this?

You know, the 'patriots', the 'don't tread on me' folks? How amazing it is corporatists have got the lock on their ear and attention. They first turned them on unions, you know, the audacity of workers getting together demanding living wages and fair treatment. Got them mad at Mexicans crossing the border, but not those who hire them that give them the incentive to cross (if they couldn't get jobs, they wouldn't come here, period). They loved Lou Dobbs when he acted like a 'birther' but somehow lose interest when he wrote his books on the 'war on the middle class' (true), 'exporting America' (also true), and how these HB1 & HB2 visas are robbing Americans of jobs. Where are these sleepers?

The next time they question you, as a lib-er-uhl, for being 'anti-American', for wanting to end sending kids to die for resources in other nations, question them. Hit them back with this logic. We'll fail to turn the tables on them enough. I know I don't, and the righties don't know what to do with me because I call their bluff and point out their failures in these areas. Where is their anger at un-American 'American companies' sending every bit of work they can do 'over there' overseas? When they import the work they can't export? When they are about 99% of the reason why we have illegal immigration (stop hiring illegals, and there will be no more illegals). Call them out on their spineless behavior.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. I do that all the time in my local paper's online comments sections--

"Stop dumping on the Mexican immigrants, who are just hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves, and start dumping on the sleazebags who hire them for substandard wages, knowing that they'll be afraid to protest."

[happygoluckytoyou]

36. THERE IS NOT A BUMPERSTICKER SOLUTION TO THIS COMPLEX ISSUE

if we are entering a "global" economy, there are consequences... when clinton signed etc, my concern was that we should "somehow" go in 5% each year so the shock and aftershocks of this type of financial change could be absorbed into our economy. we benefit from certain illegal labor--- but in a global economy, where other countries have no child labor laws or minimum wage, you have to calculate how to deal with the fact that other "suppliers" will have that advantage over your own suppliers (who have to compete with such various constraints).

when manual labor was "outsourced".... (illegal labor in the USA).... the white collar workers did not complain
when physical skilled labor was "outsourced".... (building cars in cheap labor countries).... the white collar workers did not complain
when certain office jobs were "outsourced".... (help desk, phone services)..... the white collar workers did not complain
when the military was "outsourced".... (blackwater etc) the white collar workers did not complain
AMAZING THEN when the white collar jobs are being outsources they get so little sympathy from everyone else

=============================SO MY FAVORITE QUOTE FOR THIS WEEK=====================================
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out.
====================================================================================================

[Romulox]

40. I've often argued that layed off auto workers, e.g., *can't afford* pricy

first world "services" (such as IT.)

That argument has not been well received here on DU, though it seems like common sense to me. :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. If your interest is in protecting US workers.

Then the solutions are actually quite simple.

It is only when trying to rationalize a way to act counter to their interests that things become arbitrarily complicated.

[blue97keet]

72. Having been a factory worker, test tech, and an engineer (software)

at various times, there is not a distinction and all of it is all tied to manufacturing. If you lose the center of gravity you lose everything.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. Anyone working in the US should have to contribute to social security

[AlphaCentauri]

70. and everybody should get a check by 65 regardless of their citizenship n/t

[varun]

67. What happens when these workers on H-1B visas go back to their countries?

Say a worker from India contributed $xxx to the social security system for 6 years and then went back to India.

Does s/he get some of that money back?

After all, isnt this worker entitled to some of this money?

[AlphaCentauri]

69. if they are not going to get a pension why should they pay?

stilling their money doesn't make sense, their payments should go to the Indian pension system.

[DatManFromNawlins]

84. No, it shouldn't

If I work for 20 years and die without a wife or kids, nobody in my family gets that money. H1s want that money? They can get a citizenship and live here until they're 65 just like everyone else.

[AlphaCentauri]

85. Well, the H1 visa won't allow them to become citizens

they are just guest workers

[DatManFromNawlins]

94. Right. Because H1s never get green cards or eventually apply for citizenship.

[varun]

97. H1B does not qualify one for a green card

In fact more than half of all H-1Bs return because the green card process is too long and complicated.

So H-1B's are actually subsidizing medicare and social security of American citizens.

[hollowdweller]

83. If banks can dog consumers with a billion fees then I consider this a fee for working here.

[LongTomH]

93. Hold it! Has anyone realized yet that......................

...........if American companies are excused from paying FICA taxes for foreign H1B workers, that's another big incentive for them to hire foreign workers instead of Americans?