Marine Corps Concerned About 'Jesus Guns,' Will Meet With Trijicon

[sabra]

Source: ABC News

Following ABC News Report of Secret Bible Verses on Weapons Used in Muslim Lands, Marines Will Meet With Maker of Equipment

Following an ABC News report that thousands of gun sights used by the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan are inscribed with secret Bible references, a spokesperson for the Marine Corps said the Corps is 'concerned' and will discuss the matter with the weapons manufacturer.

"We are aware of the issue and are concerned with how this may be perceived," Capt. Geraldine Carey, a spokesperson for the Marine Corps, said in a statement to ABC News. "We will meet with the vendor to discuss future sight procurements." Carey said that when the initial deal was made in 2005 it was the only product that met the Corps needs.

However, a spokesperson for CentCom, the U.S. military's overall command in Iraq and Aghanistan, said he did not understand why the issue was any different from U.S. money with religious inscriptions on it.

"The perfect parallel that I see," said Maj. John Redfield, spokesperson for CentCom, told ABC News, "is between the statement that's on the back of our dollar bills, which is 'In God We Trust,' and we haven't moved away from that."

Said Redfield, "Unless the equipment that's being used that has these inscriptions proved to be less than effective for soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and military folks using it, I wouldn't see why we would stop using that."

A spokesperson for the Army told ABC News that the Army was looking into the procurement "to see if anything is amiss here. We are still checking."

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/secret-bible-verses-guns-marines-concerned/story?id=9602030

[jmowreader]

1. Earth to Major Redfield...

The last I checked, no one ever pointed a dollar bill at someone, pulled the trigger and watched that person die in front of them. Guns are a different matter. Do you think, perhaps, that a people who have been the victims of various Crusades by the Christians might get just a little upset if someone kills their dad with a gun that has a Christian inscription on it?

[saigon68]

56. He is a Witless Clueless Drone

Another example of a broken corrupt military system.

What a Jack Ass. Types like him would mow down civilians like Calley did and then lie about it.

Not to mention types like him become War Criminals with no outside prodding.

As in " Gee, the train is late get it to the labor camp asap".

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[xxqqqzme]

5. the references are not etched.

They are part of the casting mold. You would need a grinding tool to get them off.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Mithreal]

43. Some folks have trouble focusing on more than one thing at a time

seems like what you are advocating, yes or no?

Have you sent money to any relief organization yet? Are you just taking a break from your humanitarian efforts? Tell you what, if you are inclined send what you can, then move on to the next thing, we got a country to rebuild right here as well.

If you hadn't heard the stories about how some in the military, civilian leadership and mercenaries have gone all crusader-ish then maybe your point would make sense.

Would you like to tell us when we may address this and to what extent at that time you deem appropriate?

Actually just tell us what to do, oh leader.

[PavePusher]

46. I've donated money.

I'm working to make sure aircraft are available to get supplies there (I'm USAF aircraft MX, C-130's and choppers).

If the Fundies are trying to take over the military, they've been doing a lousy job of it for the 19+ years I've been in so far.

Seems the non-religous opposition is doing a fine job, I have no complaints or suggestions.

As I've stated before, these are COTS items, if you want ones without the bible reference in the part #, do a special order or, on receipt, use a quick stroke of a file and a dab of paint.

The manufactured hysteria is damned annoying and indicative of too many people with too much free time on their hands. That's all I've got, I'm out on this subject. Good day.

[Mithreal]

47. It may annoy you, but church and state separation is a battleground right now.

And you are right, people do have too much time on their hands and things are going to get worse before they get better. 30 years of conservative economics have seen to that.

[PavePusher]

48. It's a part number being clever.

If that's your "battle ground", you are chosing your battles... poorly, and your ground... more poorly.

Not to mention Sun Tzu would be having your head on a platter.

[Mithreal]

49. That may be, but Sun Tzu is dead and done learning, I am not.

Tell you what, every fight counts. Give the rightwingers an inch and they take a mile. You probably don't like my using a cliche either.

And my ground is just fine. You are awfully full of yourself, aren't you? Is this some sort of second amendment thing to you, just curious?

[PavePusher]

51. I don't see that it has anything to do with the Second.

And very little to do with the First, for that matter.

Again, it's a part number they applied before the government was ever a customer. The very fact that it had to be pointed out to anyone demonstrates how this is a manufactured hysteria. There are real and serious issues right in our faces, and we latch onto the teat of this non-issue like the brain-dead latch onto the vacuousness of reality TV.

File. Paint. Done.

I'm done on this issue, the equine is deceased and thouroughly tenderized. I've got aircraft to keep flying and a gym session to kill so I can start all over at 0530 tomorrow. Good night.

[Mithreal]

52. All right, I see your point, just disagree to some extent. G'night.

[jmowreader]

58. Every Home Depot in America sells Dremels.

Or like I said yesterday, just tell the armorers to get their files out and file off the serial numbers.

Now...this DOES bring up another issue, namely that the Scripture is an integral part of the serial number. I was under the impression the Scripture was just tacked on the end of a serial number, and removing it wouldn't affect much--like changing 6224825JN316 to 6224825 with a file. That's not the case--the serial is the model, the power, probably something about the reticle and then the Scripture. If they wanted to change the serial numbers on these sights, they're going to have to do a LOT of paperwork--starting at arms room level. And I think Trijicon should reimburse the government for time and materials.

[Abq_Sarah]

66. It's not part of the serial number

This is what is stamped on my husband's ACOG: ACOG4X32JN8:12

If the government wants ACOGS without the scripture reference, Trijicon would need to set up separate areas with new castings just for the military to keep them away from the retail runs. That would eliminate some of the discount the DOD is receiving now when you consider the Army and Marine optics retail for around $1,600 and the DOD is paying only a little over $800.

[jmowreader]

71. You know where any other numbers on these sights are?

I looked at a picture of both sides of an ACOG and the only number on the whole optic I could find was this one.

[Abq_Sarah]

74. I didn't see a serial number

On my husbands. It could be underneath where it mounts on the handle.

[atreides1]

10. It may meet the needs of the US Military

...but these are also being used to train Iraqi and Afghan soldiers, who are mainly Muslim.

They might be slightly offended by this.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[Vidar]

14. The Bible is regarded as a holy book by Islam as well as Christianity.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[JustABozoOnThisBus]

37. The New Testament, not so holy for Islam

I doubt if the Gospel according to John would be deemed holy.

[Mithreal]

44. Still, Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

Not all Christians believe he was a deity by the way.

[Mithreal]

15. Are you lost?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

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[Mithreal]

22. Silly for all the wrong reasons

[PeanutsarePoison]

24. dupe

duh

[PeanutsarePoison]

25. if you say so

this isn't news to people who have Trijcon sights on their weapons.
Most people probably never even looked at the product codes...and even less ran to their bibles to find out what secret christian message was being given to them by the manufacturer.

its just plain silly. There's a special election today, and people are whining about Rifle Optics and Night Sites they've never seen

[Hekate]

16. The RW fundagelicals have made a concerted effort to take over the US military...

There is abundant evidence for this, if you are truly new here and not a returnee I will be glad to dig up some of it for you.

As for "scratching it off" -- it's molded into the metal and would need to be laboriously filed off.

The problem with saying "if it bothers them" is it puts the burden on the soldier who believes in separation of church and state, the soldier who is Jewish, the soldier who is Muslim, the soldier who is Pagan, the soldier who is Buddhist -- Soldiers who have no problem with other people practicing their own religion in Constitutional peace are placed in the position of having to assert their right to the same.

Bush was pandering to the RW fundies when he called the US response to 9-11 a "Crusade." Historically, the Crusades were specifically about European Christians invading Muslim lands ostensibly to "reclaim the Holy Land for Christ." Rivers of innocent blood were shed in this repeated endeavor. Believe me, the Muslims have never forgotten this.

Islamic jihadists already hate the US; we don't need to hand them further ammunition on a silver platter so they can recruit people who are wavering or neutral on the subject.

Hekate

[BlancheSplanchnik]

26. exactly

the problem isn't whether or not "someone" is offended by a religious message that conflicts with their own ideology. as you say, "The problem with saying "if it bothers them" is it puts the burden on the soldier who believes in separation of church and state, the soldier who is Jewish, the soldier who is Muslim, the soldier who is Pagan, the soldier who is Buddhist -- Soldiers who have no problem with other people practicing their own religion in Constitutional peace are placed in the position of having to assert their right to the same."

Also, as you say, fundies have been trying to take over the military for years. Imprinting guns with christian supremacist pieties bulldozes the foundation of church/state separation, besides being JUST PLAIN SICK.

[LuckyLib]

36. Yes. "the problem isn't whether or not "someone" is offended by a religious message"

the problem is I don't want my tax dollars funding right wing Christian crazies who seem to find ever more creative ways to inject religion into the strangest places. Gun sights? Please. Next my frozen burrito will have a hidden face of Jesus.

[tblue37]

63. If it does, don't eat it! Save it and sell it for thousands of dollars on

eBay. Maybe whoever bought the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwch will reunite mother and son.

[wtmusic]

34. +1 nt

[PavePusher]

40. It's an aluminum housing.

Two swipes with a bastard file....

See post #38.

Enough already.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. Get back to masturbating to killing people of less albedo, troll.

[Robb]

3. I noticed they're all references to light

...and with gun sights, I think it's somewhat appropriate.

Odd, maybe. Although considering the god-like power one takes when pointing a weapon at another human being with the intent of taking their life away, maybe not so much. :shrug:

[PeanutsarePoison]

7. absolutely appropriate given Trijcon specializes in night sights

and low light optics.

[Hekate]

19. Just a little Christian black magic, eh? nt

[Name removed]

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[frylock]

39. really?!

stupidest rationalization yet.

[PeanutsarePoison]

21. delete

blah

[atreides1]

4. A Crusader has outed himself

"The perfect parallel that I see," said Maj. John Redfield, spokesperson for CentCom, told ABC News, "is between the statement that's on the back of our dollar bills, which is 'In God We Trust,' and we haven't moved away from that."

What a stupid comparison to make. In God We Trust, isn't the same as a bible reference.

[sui generis]

6. agreed, plus an idea

What a smarmy little shit - living in his tiny little hard haired christian bubble. Seriously, maybe if they were real they'd have inscribed "Thou Shalt Not Kill" - I could go along with that.

I say we change over to pseudo koan sayings. Who's with me?

I'll start.

When a man is standing, he is not sitting.
He who change diaper last smell strongest.

When you make a man angry, you will have an angry man. :silly:

[Doremus]

64. Perhaps a "Family" recruit. nt

[Uncle Joe]

8. I believe the money thing is wrong as well for several reasons.

1. Jesus threw the money-changers out of the Temple because of it's corruptive influence and the Temple was the government of the day.

2. The phrase of "In God We Trust" violates the First Amendment on two levels, it recognizes or gives respect to the thought of not only a deity but a singular deity, it isn't "In Gods or Goddesses We Trust."

3. The Romans used to believe their emperors were Gods and worthy of putting on their money, by putting "In God We Trust" on our money, the subliminal message is that money is God. I believe this is the underlying mentality supporting the predator capitalism which has grown to be the greatest threat against our democatic republic.

Thanks for the thread, sabra.

[Kali]

9. we can remove it from our fucking money too, as far as I'm concerned.

How insane!

[VAliberal]

11. bible verses as a part of a gun sight

seems to me to smack of a primitive fetishism.

The manufacturer's linking of Jesus or God with an instrument of death via a 'hidden code' accomplishes what? Does it make the user or the weapon more potent or effective?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hekate]

29. Seriously, I think you took a wrong turn. Your group is thataway ---->

[PeanutsarePoison]

31. whatever that means

obviously there are more knee jerk reactionaries worried about this than there are actual gun owners who can attest to the superiority of the product, regardless of what innocuous reference is made with the product code.

[jmowreader]

59. That is another thing

Scripture or no, there's a reason the Marines want these scopes: nothing works better.

[wtmusic]

32. Some of our boys are Muslims

seriously, stupid is stupid

[PeanutsarePoison]

33. good point

h

[Hekate]

27. It's "Christian" death magic, all right. Here's an appropriate verse for the occasion: "Jesus wept."

x(

[xocet]

41. Fetish...?

I'm with PoisonedPeanuts. This whole thread is silly.

It's fundamentally wrong to exclude the verses of the book that forms humanity's moral and ethical foundation from being cast into our weapon sights. Luke 12:5 (KJV) is exactly the right message for our military:

"5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing
of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

It is only fair to warn the enemy who they are up against. Once they get the message, they will end resistance and greet us with flowers and candy. After all, how could they doubt the validity of Christianity as the one true religion after they have been so easily conquered?




























:sarcasm:

[edbermac]

13. Now if Jesus had a gun, he wouldn't have been crucified.

He would have blown those Roman assholes away.

[Scruffy1]

23. Redfield is a liar.....

Having made many parts for the MIC I can say for a fact that nothing gets by their purchasing. I remember working in a shop that had parts laying around for years that had been rejected because they were stamped "fuse" instead of "fuze". Even if its wrong its the way the military wanted it so its quite possible that the military actually ordered it that way but for damn sure they knew.

[jmowreader]

60. Fuze isn't wrong

A fuze sets off an artillery shell or a bomb. A fuse sets off blasting charges or grenades.

[tblue37]

65. The poster said the parts were stamped "fuse," and that because "fuse"

was wrong and should have been "fuze," the parts were left lying around (rejected).

[jmowreader]

70. Exactly...

They are very, very fussy about that particular spelling--more than the spellings for a lot of other things, because a fuze and a fuse are used for different things and they're afraid a non-artillery troop stuffed in the ammo supply point in a war might look at a supply request for "fuzes," see "fuse" stamped on a fuze, not send it and kill a lot of people unnecessarily through lack of ability to fire missions.

[tblue37]

75. Yes, but your reply made it sound as though the original post said the things had been stamped

"fuze" and you were informing the poster that "fuze" wasn't wrong. He wasn't saying that "fuze" was wrong, but that the things were not stamped "fuze."

You reply to my post, however, shows that the government had a very good reason, perhaps, for not letting them be used if they were incorrectly stamped, because they might not have been recognized asbeing the needed part if they were stamped "fuse."

[jmowreader]

77. Our friend said...

about the spelling of fuze: "even if it's wrong it's the way the military wants it..."

which implies, at least to me, the military doesn't know how to spell. I was just tryin' to point out that artillerymen spell that word "fuze" on purpose.

Since we don't know what kind of fuzes they are, it's possible the military could have solved the problem by having a contractor screw the mislabeled fuzes into ordnance and shipping them...grenades come prefuzed, for instance. OTOH if these were artillery fuzes from ten or so years ago before they invented the multipurpose fuze, this would have been impractical, since there used to be several fuzes to choose from. (Now they have one fuze that can be set for proximity, impact, time or whatever you want.)

[tblue37]

78. I see what you mean. You are right! nt

[mainer]

28. he's only concerned with "how this may be perceived"???

He's not concerned that it's even there in the first place?

[Merchant Marine]

30. Not everyone feels threatened

by a code at the end of a serial number. You guys are way hypersensitive. Jesus codes or not, Trijicon makes the highest quality medium range sight on the market.

[bergie321]

42. So...If it said

"Allah Akbar" you would have no problem with it?
or
"God does not Exist"?

[Merchant Marine]

54. Not a single one

I couldn't care less what a manufacturer hides in their product codes.

[Abq_Sarah]

67. I wouldn't have a problem with it

If I had a spare $1200 sitting around and I was in the market for new optics, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. "You guys". How lovely. Hay, where's your friend PeanutsarePoison? -nt

[KansDem]

35. Guns and geld

Anyone who is the slightest-bit religious will believe in a God, but prophets are another matter entirely, whether its guns or money...

[Fumesucker]

53. Eh, they might believe in multiple gods..

Zeus, Athena, Thor, Jupiter, Set, Baal and so on..

[Festivito]

45. So, if we give them some American money, we're proselytizing?

That's against the rules. Bwahhhh ha ha ha.

[jgraz]

55. Yes, we are. Which is why that obscene phrase needs to be removed.

Every encroachment by the Dominionists is justified either by "In God We Trust" or "Under god" in the pledge. These clear violations are cited every time the fundies want to push another bit of theocracy into our government.

[Ter]

50. Trijicon is three dotted letters in a row

I thought only hijinks did that.

[Brother Buzz]

57. Think three stylized iron sight silhouettes

[fascisthunter]

61. a nutty right wing manufacturer

businesses using their capital to further a religious agenda. Creepy to say the least.

[Blandocyte]

62. My tax dollars are buying these fukking things?

Jesus fucking christ. Now my tax dollars are going to have to go toward grinding off the fundie nut's idea of putting that shit on the optic or re-tooling the molds? What the goddam mother fukking FUCK?!

Fuck Trijicon. Least they could do in this case is send me an optic free of charge.

[Abq_Sarah]

68. Your tax dollars

Are being used to buy the best product on the market when it comes to combat optics. Would you rather they use iron sights?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

84. What about the manufacturer stops the biblical bullshit, and the military grinds out the letters

on the ones they already have?

Or must US warmaking be always Biblical?

[Abq_Sarah]

95. The solution to this would be for the military

To obliterate the scripture reference. The manufacturer is under no obligation to change anything. This was purchased under a commercial off the shelf contract. That means the DOD bought them "as is".

[Occulus]

69. What surprises me most is that, on this thread,

there are people defending this practice.

"Big tent", indeed. I'll go out on a limb and say that there's a point at which the tent is TOO big...

[aikoaiko]

72. Well, it depends on what you're saying is wrong.

Some fundie optics manufacturer makes an excellent and unique product that collects light and shines a reticle without batteries and incorporates a a biblical verse code (that references light) in the part number .

Marines and military procure such item because it is excellent and unique solution for rifle optics problems with the biblical reference on it.

The manufacturer didn't do anything except sell a product to the military that the military wanted.

[Abq_Sarah]

76. The ACOG sight

Was not designed by the military. They didn't put the money into the development, research, advertising, marketing. They bought the product as is at a substantial discount. The military is benefiting from their hard work. The optics the DOD bought are NDI/COTS. that means Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) / Non Developmental Item (NDI). Commercial off the shelf does not mean manufactured to DOD specifications.



So yeah, I AM defending the right of a private company that has produced a product that can save soldier's lives along with providing jobs and tax revenue for their local, state and federal government to put whatever the hell they want to on their product. If that means I don't fit under your tent, so be it.

[salin]

73. How twisted.

In God's name we kill? Spreading the tone of a modern day Crusade? As a Christian (not evangelical or literalist), I am appalled.

[Vehl]

79. wow..simply wow

I just cant understand how the hell people could defend such a thing just cos those scopes are the best out there!

what next? during the ww2 Nazi Carl Zeis optics were the best...maybe the us ought to have bought a few...after all..who cares about how illegal/wrong it might be...as long as its the "best" right?

:sarcasm:


Oh yeah...and lets not forget that these rifles will be like a death warrant for the us soldiers if they were caught by the terrorists!. Just what the AQ needs! throw "winning the hearts and minds" out the window.


Is it not illegal for the Tax payer's money to be spent on something that clearly violates the separation of church and state?


Whats worse is the excuse given by the CENTCOM spokesman!
:puke:

[Jack_DeLeon]

80. Its no big deal...

damn some folks have too much time on their hands if they are just sitting around looking for a small series of numbers and letters to bitch about.

[one-eyed fat man]

81. tempest in a teapot

Talk about pole vaulting over mouse turds!!!

Certainly not the first time a manufacturer or designer has been clever with a part number or model designation. Not likely to be the last.

My question is who would look at ACOG4X32JN8:12 or REFLEX1X2-2COR4:6 and immediately say, "Hey, Quick find a Bible and see what my part number means?"

I guess the same sort who had nothing better to do than to play their records backwards looking for devil worship messages. (Those of you who grew up with CDs, ask your grandparents about records.)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

85. The USMC itself says it's "concerned". Why do you think is that? -nt

[one-eyed fat man]

89. My dog-tags

still say NO PREF on them. Religion is not an issue with me. Thus, not being a Bible thumper, I never paid any attention to what the part number said on anything I was issued unless I needed to replace it. I certainly didn't notice a Biblical reference until this recent batch of wailing and gnashing of teeth broke out!

As far as Al-Qaeda or the Taliban are concerned I have great doubts they give a shit. You could be the biggest ACLU atheist, protesting every reference to God on money, public buildings, and having apoplexy every time some well-meaning clerk wishes you a 'Merry Christmas' during your winter solstice shopping frenzy they will still behead your infidel ass because you are not a Muslim and their precise brand of Muslim.

Atheist, agnostic, Christian, Jew, Wiccan, it makes no difference. Neither freedom of nor freedom from religion are concepts permitted under their version of Jihad. If you do not submit to Islam you are to be put to the sword; they believe this with all their heart. It is central to who they are, and it is their unshakable faith that they will prevail. You WILL submit or die; resistance is futile.

"The Management of Savagery"--Abu Bakr Naji

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

90. You didn't answer the question. -nt

[one-eyed fat man]

93. ok, here's what I think went down

The Corps is concerned because an inquiry was made, by who, it really doesn't matter. But I am sure the first response was, "Huh!? What are they talking about?" All they were in the market for was a sight that worked. Now it is all over TV, cards and letters are pouring in from all kinds of outraged people seeing some massive collusion between Christian fundies, crazy militaristic jingoistic Neanderthals who are dumb enough to enlist and covering the airwaves and cyberspace with volumes of coverage and conspiracy theories.

Thanks to all the hoopla, now every random series of numbers and letters will need to be scrutinized to see if it doesn't reference the Bible, the Koran, some obscure religious text, or who knows what inside joke. Doubtless there will Congressional committees and job opportunities for a dozen generations of bureaucrats because all the freaking publicity has MADE it an issue.

General Electric used to market a series of lamps named Mazda after the Persian God of Light. Not every reference to some diety is replete with sinister undertones and secret messages. I still see it as a manufactured issue, just one that has snowballed to the point where now it is. No different than the prohibiton we were given 40 years ago against using the word "kill" in bayonet training. As good soldiers, we gave a collective sigh, saluted and went to work on real problems and real missions.

Short answer, the Corps and the Army, now, are concerned; Marines and soldiers are not, they just want a reliable sight that works and will keep them alive and their enemy dead!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

94. Shorter you:

"Them dirty libruls are trying to hinder our Holy Crusade."

[one-eyed fat man]

96. raw nerve you have there?

You sound a lot more inflamed than the Taliban! I don't think they care what it says on those sights. I think they would gleefully kill either one of us. If you're offended by markings, fine, that's your prerogative. You seem to think it's a BIG DEAL and I don't.

[WinkyDink]

88. MY question is: What kind of twisted mind puts the messages there in the first place?

[Tripmann]

86. A major issue here isn't about how WE percieve it or..

..whether or not WE consider it a problem.

It is whether the disclosure that US military are using hardware with bible code stamped on it will further inflame the many muslims who see the war on terror as a holy war against islam.

Does it contribute to the hatred that will radicalise more muslims or not?

Does it help the argument that the US is not executing a crusade against muslims?

It certainly cannot help.

[Mithreal]

87. It is not something a peace-loving, separation of church and state avowing

country would do either.

I agree with you on all points.

I would add, our terror war and radicalization of our own Christianistas must be stopped.

And perception of those whose countries we are occupying is of ultimate relevance. We are fueling hatred, no need to pour more gasoline on the fire.

I cannot see how people ignore your points.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

91. Exactly. The crux of the matter is Muslims that MAY OR MAY NOT become enemy fighters.

The "undecideds", you may say.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

92. I wonder if this isn't a scheme to sell the govt replacement parts.

They have the molds, and the alternative is to buy all new guns. Looks like the military will need to BUY new parts.

Maybe I should invest in this company...Brilliant!