Court Rules in Favor of Venezuela Vote Signatures

[windansea]

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's Supreme Court on Monday ordered electoral authorities to lift their objections against more than 800,000 disputed opposition signatures seeking a referendum against President Hugo Chavez.

The ruling by the court's Electoral Chamber, which heralded a bitter legal battle over the referendum process, boosted opposition hopes to secure a recall vote this year on the rule of the leftist leader.

Electoral officials decided March 2 that the opposition had initially failed to secure enough valid signatures to trigger the referendum. Foes of Chavez, who need to reconfirm 600,000 signatures to meet the referendum target, had appealed to the Supreme Court against the National Electoral Council decision to order a recheck of the questioned signatures.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040315/wl_nm/venezuela_dc_1


:) :party: :toast: :bounce: :thumbsup: :kick:

[enki23]

1. so it'a another supreme court ruling saying, essentially....

"no recounts"

[windansea]

3. no

it's a ruling that says ok...go ahead and vote on the recall

[Mika]

79. What does Jimmy Carter have to say about this?

After all, Carter did say to trust the process. :shrug:

[windansea]

82. I am sure he is applauding the ruling n/t

[Just Me]

The best democracy money can buy,...

,...I guess.

[windansea]

11. if you oppose the NED

you better contact Kerry and DK

they both support it.

Kerry supports more funding for it:

Kerry faulted Bush for providing funding for the National Endowment for Democracy that he said "is less than 3 percent of what this administration gives Halliburton." Bush, however, has proposed to double the endowment's budget in the next fiscal year, and he has made the promotion of democracy in the "Greater Middle East" a key goal of his administration this year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A12301-2004Feb27?language=pri ...

The NED enjoys overwhelming bi-partisan support:

NED's congressional support has grown steadily during its first twenty years. From the early days of close and frequent votes on its authorizing and appropriating legislation, it has moved beyond survival to widespread bipartisan endorsement on the Hill. In fact, identical Senate and House resolutions (S. Con Res 66; H. Con Res 274) commending the National Endowment for Democracy “for its major contributions to the strengthening of democracy around the world on the occasion of the 20th anniversary” of its establishment, and endeavoring “to continue to support vital work” were passed in October, 2003. The Senate resolution was passed by unanimous voice vote; the House resolution sailed through on a roll call vote of 391-1. Both resolutions had strong, bipartisan co-sponsorship.(10) These votes were a reflection of how far the Endowment had come over the years in establishing not only its legitimacy but also the widespread bipartisan approval of its work. But the road had not always been a smooth one.

http://www.ned.org/about/nedhistory.html

[Just Me]

22. Well,...how's about the IRI which gets funds from the NED?

-snip-

More recently, IRI president George A. Folsom last year praised a coup against Venezuela's democratically-elected president, saying, "Last night, led by every sector of civil society, the Venezuelan people rose up to defend democracy in their country." It was later revealed that the National Endowment for Democracy provided funds to those organizations that initiated the violent revolt in the streets against Venezuela's legal leaders. More than a dozen civilians were killed and hundreds were injured in this attempted coup. Is this promoting democracy?

-more-

http://www.antiwar.com/paul/paul79.html

The NED distributes funding to the International Republican Institute and the National Democratic Institute both of which have given money to those groups (mostly militant) who serve the interests of capitalists rather than democracy. A society ruled by capitalists is corporatism which is linked to fascism (per Mussolini). I view such pro-corporatist actions as being anti-democracy.

[windansea]

34. like I said

write your congress person

[never cry wolf]

2. That Scalia does get around, doesn't he....n/t

[windansea]

4. newsflash

the world does not revolve around the USA...

[sadiesworld]

5. Not seeing the cause for celebration here.

[windansea]

6. you oppose

constitutional law and democratic rights of venezuelans?

[sadiesworld]

7. Looks like a wealthy minority (propped up by US conservative groups)

started a recall petition (possibly using fraudulently obtained signatures)and will now use that wealth to confuse poor Venezuelans and subvert the system. Yes, I oppose it and it seems familiar.

[windansea]

8. perhaps you know better than the Carter Center?

As international observers, our objectives are to assure that the process is transparent, complying with the laws and regulations of the country; that it respects the will of the citizens; and that the citizens and the actors have confidence in the process and the results. We have expressed privately and publicly the international criteria for general principles that guide this type of process. These principles include transparency and controls to prevent fraud, as well as the promotion of the participation of the citizens.

In this process, in particular, we find sufficient controls, including security paper for the petitions, full identification of the citizen with signature and thumbprint, summary forms (actas) listing the petition (planillas) serial numbers during the collection process, party witnesses, personnel trained and designated by the CNE, verification of each petition form and a cross-check with the summary forms, a cross-check of the names with the voters list, and a mechanism for appeal and correction.

http://www.jimmycarter.org/viewdoc.asp?docID=1631&submenu=news

[thebigidea]

25. funny how you don't continue quoting:

"We have had some discrepancies with the CNE over the verification criteria. In the case of the petition forms in which the basic data of several signers, but not the signatures themselves, appear to have been filled in by one person, we do not share the criterion of the CNE to separate these signatures, sending them to the appeals process in order to be rectified by the citizens. These occur in such large numbers that they could have an impact on the outcome of the process.

Those citizens who are erroneously or fraudulently included on the list (planillas) should be given the opportunity to remove their names during the appeals and correction period. In addition, the signatures themselves that appear to have a similar handwriting, which have also been found, should be carefully reviewed in order to reject those that are not genuine."

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

27. I don't know if funny is the right term.

[windansea]

29. LOL

that's why I put the link there...so I can be exposed!!!

I think you guys should write the Carter Center and the Supreme Court in Venezuela...they need your expertise on elections and signature validity.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

30. Yeah, you've been L-ingOL a lot lately.

If what is being said here is true (you'll argue that these are Chavez lackeys anyway). Maybe you and your boys won't be L-ingOL that much after all. But to quote you "time will tell".

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/print.php?artno=1076

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1191

[windansea]

31. yes..that is a pro Chavez website

and both pieces were written before today's court ruling that the signatures are valid. hopefully the citizens will get to have a fair vote on the recall, which is what I support...if they vote to retain Chavez or not..it's their choice.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

32. yes.....how predictable.

[windansea]

33. sorry

it's the truth...:shrug:

[Vladimir]

77. The most

mature piece of analysis I have read in a while on the subject, that first link. Cheers.

V

[windansea]

28. that supports my argument as well

you see..the 800,000 signatures the court just ruled valid did not have similar handwriting in the signatures...what happened is that poll workers helped some people fill out name address etc on some of the forms, of course all this was done in front of witnesses from Chavez, the opposition, and Carter Center, and before people could sign..their IDs were checked and they were also fingerprinted, and all this was done on fraud proof security paper the government supplied.

This process was more secure than US elections and many around the world.

[Judi Lynn]

113. Yeah, truly!

I can't begin to understand why someone reading that article would be unable to either see, or understand those paragraphs. They seem fairly important, you'd think!



I'll repeat them, for the convenience of any right-wing "opposition" supporter who might want his memory refreshed:

"We have had some discrepancies with the CNE over the verification criteria. In the case of the petition forms in which the basic data of several signers, but not the signatures themselves, appear to have been filled in by one person, we do not share the criterion of the CNE to separate these signatures, sending them to the appeals process in order to be rectified by the citizens. These occur in such large numbers that they could have an impact on the outcome of the process.

Those citizens who are erroneously or fraudulently included on the list (planillas) should be given the opportunity to remove their names during the appeals and correction period. In addition, the signatures themselves that appear to have a similar handwriting, which have also been found, should be carefully reviewed in order to reject those that are not genuine."

If we keep at it, maybe he'll take time to correct his Carter perception.

[ret5hd]

10. yeah... and when violence, murder, vote rigging occur in...

the next elections there (whenever they may be) it will be VERY interesting to see where the 2 bit whore apologists for the fascist elite will stand, won't it?

[windansea]

13. Chavez controls the govt and military

thank goodness the Carter Center, UN, EU etc are watching him closely as he definitely has been using violence, torture, murder, and attempts to rig the recall by trumped up invalidations of valid signatures

he just got overuled

[ret5hd]

23. and the opposition controls the police...

in fact, so much so that they are essentially a private police force...goons for hire...and have already shown their propensity to violence towards the pro-chavez (read black and poor). and the role of the media there in inciting this violence will be (and has been) blatant.

don't misunderstand me...i make no pretensions at trying to persuade you or your ilk. You're gotta job to do. and your attempts at swaying me (and at least some others here, at least those that try to keep up with such issues) by using carter, un, eu, etc are pretty transparent once one realizes that all of the above mentioned parties have a long history of and a vested interest in maintaining the capitalistic status quo. carter is no more apt to view land reform or nationalization of resources favorably than ronald reagan, even if it is in the third world.

[windansea]

35. slide show

here are the goons from Chavez controlled national guard...

http://venezuelatoday.net/tools/Collection/index.cfm?fuseaction=DisplayCollection&CollectionID=mgZHKnzG

[Classical_Liberal]

50. document such abuses please!

!

[windansea]

55. go to

human rights watch, amnesty international, and you will see many reports

if you want photos...go here:

http://venezuelatoday.net/tools/Collection/index.cfm?fuseaction=DisplayCollection&CollectionID=mgZHKnzG

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. So the poor are too easily confused to make decisions?

Perhaps they should not have been allowed to elect Chavez in the first place.

[windansea]

24. LOL

very astute...of course the poor are smart and free when they elect a quasi populist, and when they turn against him because he does not deliver, they are being manipulated by the evil oligarchs.

[AP]

9. The bad guys always win battles like this. The good guys win the wars.

[redqueen]

12. Are you still supporting the opposition in Haiti?

Are you going to be on the Aristide threads anymore? Or now that that's been outed as a CIA op are you now just going to go to full-time Chavez bashing?

Do you have anything to say about the US funding this supposedly 'democratic' referendum?

[windansea]

16. see post 11

Kerry will increase funding for the NED, and so does 99.9% of congress.....and yes I do too.

As far as Aristide goes...no I am not a big fan...but a CIA op has hardly been proved...after speaking to Aristide the night he left, Senator Harkin said he did not believe Aristide was kidnapped or forced to resign. I am all for an investigation of Aristide's claims and will await more facts.

[Classical_Liberal]

53. Here is what Kerry said about it

Kerry, in response to a question about the situation in Haiti, said that the Bush administration "has a theological and ideological hatred for Aristide" which has led to the administration "empowering" the rebels.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar04/Blum0304.htm

If you can use Kerry so can I.

[Zhade]

136. That shut him up.

When the disinformation agents get caught, they don't reply. When they do reply, and you hit the mark, watch for a lot of "LOL" - that's a sure sign you nailed 'em.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. I'd think there's still lots of things to be questioned in the courts

Like, for instance, employers forcing employees to sign. That could make this thing go on forever, or until Chávez's full term is up.

Maybe this recall mechanism wasn't such a good idea. Better to do things like the USA (and Brazil, and many others) do: shorter term, possibility of reelection, no mid-term referendum nonsense.

Minus this "Electoral College" thing you have up there, of course.

[windansea]

18. the claim that employers forced people to sign

comes from a 100% pro chavez website, and I can post accounts that employees were fired for signing the referendum.

The recall provision in their constitution was supported by Chavez.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

21. What part of "maybe wasn't such a good idea" don't you understand?

Regardless of specifics, this procedure is too much of a source of institutional confusion. But as they say, 20/20 hindsight etc.

Oh, and you can be sure both pro- and con- illegal pressures by various entities will indeed be brought up in court. I have no reason to believe any of these two similar allegations is any more or less credible that the other side's.

[windansea]

26. ok you could be right on that

time will tell...

[Imajika]

17. Great news!

If the recall finally goes forward I'd say Chavez gets the boot in a big way.

I'd guess 62% - 38%, the opposition wins in a walk. What say you?

Ofcourse, Uncle Fidel will redouble his efforts to make sure no such election ever takes place in Cuba. One day though, the Cuban people will overthrow the communist thugs running that nation, and history will show Castro to have been nothing but another failed tyrant.

Imajika

[windansea]

20. yes..he will probably lose

his attempts to intimidate and invalidate signatures speak volumes

Fidel won't like this at all, as he has been getting cheap or free oil from Chavez in return for sending 12,000 cubans to infiltrate the army and intelligence/security apparatus.

[earthman dave]

19. Yeah, you gotta watch out for those leftists

Goddamn commies. Still, at least things can get back to normal in venezuela now, as soon as they get rid of this uppity mestizo. Praise the Market!

[Judi Lynn]

36. Racist Comments in Venezuelan TV “an Offense to the African People”,Afric

"A deplorable and reiterated insult to human dignity"
Racist Comments in Venezuelan TV “an Offense to the African People”, African Ambassadors Say

Sunday, Mar 14, 2004


"Aló Ciudadano" host and Chavez opponent Leopoldo Castillo laughs at the President of Zimbabwe, who reminded him of the movie “The Planet of the Apes”.
Photo: Globovision TV.

>>>See video clip of the show ridiculing President Mugabe<<< (Windows Media format, 731 Kbs,
digitized by Luigino Bracci)

Caracas, Mar 14 (Venezuelanalysis.com).- As “a grotesque and indecent spectacle full of racist content” a group of Ambassadors from African nations in Venezuela described the ridicule of the President of Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe in a local TV show broadcasted by the commercial network Globovision.

A letter sent to the General Manager of Globovision, Alberto Federico Ravell, by representatives of several diplomatic missions from Africa (including Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Saharawi, South Africa and Nigeria) expressed deep rejection and astonishment for what they consider to be offensive remarks “against the African people and human dignity”.
(snip)

The Chavez administration is the only government in the history of Venezuela to allow the local media to make fun of government politicians or the President. In spite of that, the opposition and the commercial media who oppose Chavez call the government “a Castro-communist dictatorship.” However, this is the first incident in which the leader of a country is ridiculed in such manner.
(snip)

The Minister of Education, Aristobulo Isturiz, who is black, has been called “a monkey” and “an ape”, by commercial media political commentators who oppose the government.

Opponents of the President argue that there is no racism in Venezuela, and that current claims of racism in the country have been artificially raised by the President in order to advance his political agenda.
(snip/...)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1226

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These pieces of filth are using public airwaves to espose everyone to their hallucinated belief they are superior, and others far, far beneath them. Poor, sick, deluded bustards.

[Judi Lynn]

38. The station who runs vicious racist programming as in the article above

is Venezuela's idea of a "News Channel," and it sounds as if it has acheived the lofty heights of Rupert Murdoch's own "Fox News." This information comes from an article on how the Vene. media blocked ALL information of the movement to remove the ill-advised, right-wing coup. In other words, they chose to simply LIE to the public about current events.

Globovision, the country's top 24-hour news station and CNN affiliate, spent much of the day rebroadcasting upbeat footage of Chavez's ouster. An announcer repeatedly cautioned viewers, "We are living in times of political change." Viewers were urged to be "prudent" and avoid spreading "false alarms" and "rumors."

Moreover, Globovision president Alberto Ravell reportedly telephoned CNN offices in Atlanta to request the U.S. network join the blackout. CNN's Spanish-language station was giving ample coverage to Saturday's events, making it almost the only source of news for those with access to cable or satellite.
(snip/...)

http://www.stpetersburgtimes.com/2002/04/18/Worldandnation/Media_accused_in_fail.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

39. Isn't it odd, that even though CNN works as a sister-station

to the right-wing mouthpiece Globovision in Venezuela, right-wingers here are still known to refer to CNN as "Communist News Network," when they are feeling witty?

I find this fascinating.

[windansea]

42. Mugabe is "an Offense to the African People"

but I don't condone racist remarks by anyone, be they dems pukes or venezuelans

Trying to paint the whole opposition as racist because of what one TV commentator said is ridiculous...

As is using Mugabe to defend anything.

edit spelling

WASHINGTON -- The choice of South Africa to host the U.N. World Conference on Racism instantly rang true. The post-apartheid governments of Nelson Mandela and Thabo Mbeki have worked hard to ease the racial hatreds and fears that once made South Africa an international pariah.

Siting the conference, which opens Friday, in Durban seemed both reward and incentive for South Africa. The force of the Beloved Country's example would deepen the discussions on this human evil, and international recognition would solidify South Africa's admirable resolve not to replace one brand of official racism with another.

Those reasons remain valid, despite the conference's debilitating controversy over efforts to revive the propagandistic Zionism-is-racism slogan. And what is going on next door in Zimbabwe reinforces the reasons for the delegates to come to the southern tip of the continent. They can learn a lot about the political uses of racism from President Robert Mugabe's predatory nation-wrecking behavior.

Racism is not for racists alone. It is a handy political and economic tool for the quick, the desperate and the greedy as well as for biological and cultural ideologues. It can become as vicious a diversionary weapon in unprincipled black hands in Africa as it was in white ones in Mississippi. Mugabe now demonstrates this on a daily basis.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/36831_hoagland28.shtml

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

40. Bought and paid for by sponsors of pro-corporatism,...

Corporatism is the closest thing to fascism and the wealthy elite (not the least of which includes certain members of the US leadership) are the best friends of corporatism.

[windansea]

46. see post 45

the opposition is people of all types

[Judi Lynn]

57. A note on this subject from a Guardian article

Sorry, I only have time to drop this off, but I felt I shouldn't let the evening go by without clarifying something we ALL know at D.U.

Racist rage of the Caracas elite

Venezuela's embattled president faces a Pinochet-style opposition

Richard Gott
Tuesday December 10, 2002
The Guardian

(snip) For the past year or more, Venezuela's upper and middle classes, opposed to Chavez's government, have protested in the wealthy new neighbourhoods of Caracas, while the poor (the vast majority of the city's population) have come from their shantytowns and demonstrated to defend "their" president.
(snip)

Perhaps even more significant than the changing attitude of the military and of the US is the fact that the poor are more mobilised now, to such an extent that there is talk of a possible civil war. Until the April coup, the poor had voted for Chavez repeatedly, but his revolutionary programme was directed from above, without much popular participation. After the coup, which revealed that the opposition sought to impose a regime on Pinochet lines, the people realised that they had a government that they needed to defend. The opposition's protest marches have now conjured up a phenomenon that most of the middle and upper classes might have preferred to have left sleeping - the spectre of a class and race war.

Opposition spokesmen complain that Chavez is a leftist who is leading the country to economic chaos, but underlying the fierce hatred is the terror of the country's white elite when faced with the mobilised mass of the population, who are black, Indian and mestizo. Only a racism that dates back five centuries - of the European settlers towards their African slaves and the country's indigenous inhabitants - can adequately explain the degree of hatred aroused. Chavez - who is more black and Indian than white, and makes no secret of his aim to be the president of the poor - is the focus of this racist rage.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,857027,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry, I'm in such a rush, I don't have time to add more, but, by golly, they can be found in google by entering "Venezuela opposition racist" and you'll find more than enough to keep you busy. Here's another:

(snip) The opposition to President Chavez, for instance, has attacked him using racist language and imagery that would be totally unacceptable in public discourse in the U.S. President Chavez, it should be noted, openly proclaims both his African and indigenous background.

This seems to drive sectors of the opposition crazy. Our delegation, because it had received the invitation from the Venezuelan government, came immediately under the scrutiny of and a barrage of attacks from the opposition. In the opposition-oriented media, racist language and imagery were also used to characterize, if not caricaturize, our visit.

One paper described us as visiting "burned people," and this did not mean burn victims. Another paper had a racist cartoon. Yet another paper compared TransAfrica Forum Board chairman Danny Glover to a Black figure familiar to many in the Caracas carnival celebrations, a comparison that was not flattering.
(snip/...)

http://www.sacobserver.com/news/commentary/021004/venezuela_racism.shtml

[windansea]

41. still a ways to go

Monday, March 15
You think this was too confusing before?
The recall saga just got 40% more confusing thanks to the Supreme Tribunal Electoral Chamber's just annouunced "preliminary injunction" temporarily resuscitating the 876,000 questioned signatures, por ahora.
The preliminary ruling is the start of what promises to be an intricate courtroom battle inside the Supreme Tribunal...just like a Grisham courtroom battle, with the exception that at least 9 of the 20 magistrates on the court are openly on the side of the government.


much more

http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/

[Just Me]

43. So, are you saying this mess wasn't funded by pro-corporatists? *eom*

[Judi Lynn]

44. Speaking of the psychotic racism on the part of the Venezuelan opposition

it appears there's a ton of reading for interested readers in any search.

One of the visiting posters disclosed a deep reverence for articles from the Guardian, except for Greg Palast, apparently. Here's a snippet from another Guardian writer, who isn't Greg Palast:

For the past year or more, Venezuela's upper and middle classes, opposed to Chavez's government, have protested in the wealthy new neighbourhoods of Caracas, while the poor (the vast majority of the city's population) have come from their shantytowns and demonstrated to defend "their" president.
(snip)

The opposition has been hoping to repeat in December what it failed to achieve in April, but the situation is no longer the same. The armed forces are now more solidly behind the president than before. The most conservative generals no longer hold important commands; those involved in the April coup attempt have all been sent into retirement.

The international situation is different, too. The US welcomed the April coup, but this time, with more important problems elsewhere, Washington is being more circumspect. It has publicly thrown its weight behind the negotiations being conducted by Cesar Gaviria, the Colombian ex-president who leads the Organisation of American States.

Perhaps even more significant than the changing attitude of the military and of the US is the fact that the poor are more mobilised now, to such an extent that there is talk of a possible civil war. Until the April coup, the poor had voted for Chavez repeatedly, but his revolutionary programme was directed from above, without much popular participation. After the coup, which revealed that the opposition sought to impose a regime on Pinochet lines, the people realised that they had a government that they needed to defend. The opposition's protest marches have now conjured up a phenomenon that most of the middle and upper classes might have preferred to have left sleeping - the spectre of a class and race war.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,857027,00.html

On edit:

Forgot to leave a link to google, for anyone interested in reading up on "Venezuela opposition racist," 15,900 opportunities for enlightenment.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Venezuela+opposition+racist

[windansea]

45. try looking at the photos

in the slideshow of this link

as any visiting traveler can see BOTH the opposition and chavez supporters have many non european dark skinned brunnettes in their midst.

Chavez has been trying to use the same racism angle against the opposition and it's not working, too many observers and cameras there that expose the lie.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040315/wl_nm/venezuela_dc_1

[Judi Lynn]

47. Now that would be silly, wouldn't it?

Why would I trust a collection of photos carefully arranged and culled by opposition owned Vene. media, the same people who conducted a total blackout when the Venezuelan population started pushing back after learning there was a coup underway.

I'll NEVER believe one word or photo from that group of conniving, totally treacherous group of card-carrying LIARS.

The very idea!

We already know what they did during the coup to completely BURY news that the President of Venezuela didn't resign. Pathetic, and shameful.

[windansea]

49. it's a yahoo news site

not owned by venezuelan media

[Classical_Liberal]

52. What makes you think we trust yahoo news?

? It's is owned by republican contributers Disney.

[windansea]

54. LOL

you are hilarious...all those photos are photoshopped to change blonde haired elites into dark skinned brunettes...

[AP]

56. Those are pictures from the AP. You know that the AP's stringer in Haiti

was a Duvalier crony.

I wouldn't trust anything coming out of the AP on Haiti, and that skepticisim extends throughout the third world.

[windansea]

81. AP disses AP

in this post you discount the validity of AP photos

In another you cite an AP caption as proof of my lies...

which is it??


regarding the homeless guy being dragged away...I apologize for using it as an example of Chavez repression...I did not read the caption...but we can't trust the photo nor the caption since it's from AP right??????

getting desperate??

[AP]

122. It just proved how big the lies the opposition tells are. Even the AP

discredits your gang's versions of reality.

[AP]

60. You shouldn't be encouraging people to watch that slide show

It exposes a lie you've been spreading.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1230645&mesg_id=1237219

[windansea]

83. caption this

[Mika]

84. Looks like the pinkerton jackboots at the Miami FTAA..

.. except US jackboots are better equipped.

[Judi Lynn]

86. I remember the great photos you shared with DU then, Mika

There were some real winners, weren't there?

We out-of-staters are still seeing AFL-CIO members and others on national tv discussing the Miami police brutality at the FTAA last year.

[windansea]

88. so you are ok with this?

if Miami Police did it then Chavez can??

your linkage is highly suspect, and NEWSFLASH...political oppression around the world can not be justified by your self centric worldview

oppression is bad....period

[Mika]

92. How the hell did you read that from my post?

Correct, oppression is bad. :thumbsup:


My points being, our (as in, the US) jackboots are better equipped and trained (and therefore better at jackbooting and oppressing), and, a question actually.. can the head of state of a nation be held responsible for the rogue acts of some extremist jackboots within a police force? If so, then W* should be recalled or impeached by an opposition force funded and supported by a foreign government? Another point regarding American interventionism.. we should clean up our own back yard that is piled high with litter before demanding that others do so.

[windansea]

119. glad you agree

and if there was a constitutional law allowing midterm recalls on Presidents here in the USA, and approximately 1/3 of eligible voters (33 million) signed and fingerprinted said recall vote...as did a similar percentage of venezuelan voters...then I would support it completely.

[AP]

121. Saving the life of a homeless man being shot at by the opposition

is oppression?

Arresting people shooting bullets, throwing molotov cocktails and shooting guns within blocks of the G-15 meeting is oppression?

[AP]

120. I think you learned your lesson.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and 975 of them could be lies.

[windansea]

146. LOL

I'm not the one getting schooled...he he

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

147. It seems to me, you are. Over and over and over.... hee hee....

[Almost_there]

48. Perhaps some clarification would help me out...

Well, I am going to come across as a total newbie dweeb, but, I've been following the Venezualan threads here for about a week, and I can't see how this is a bad thing. IF!! This was done correctly, by the books, and all above board democratically, as certified by the Venezualan Supreme Court, what's the problem? Please note the "IF". I don't know enough about Chavez to have an opinion, but, it just strikes me that if this is the will of the people, so be it.

We must accept what happened in California as democratic, right? Even if knuckle head won, well, it was the legal will of the people. And if Chavez is booted from office, will he go, or will that revolution be televised? Seriously, help me out, I am not willing to just jump in and say to hell with the signatures even if they are financed by oil and the US hypocricy. If they are legitimate, and the law says that its ok to have a recall, then why is that bad? Can't we speak out against the bushista regime, and don't we have the power to get him the hell out in November? I don't know if Chavez is good or bad, but, degrading the conversation into a ridicule of Castro (who let's be honest, isn't exactly a freely elected Democratic leader) is comparable.

Sorry, lame first post, I am just curious as to the whole why they are not valid signatures thing. Trying to learn...

Thanks!

~Almost

[windansea]

51. not a lame first post

support of constitutional laws and democracy is always good!

also, the opposition has recieved about 1.8 million dollars from the NED in the last 2 years, but this is hardly enough to get 500,000 people to demonstrate or 3.5 million people to sign a recall referendum.

The signature gathering process has been validated by the Carter Center who were invited to monitor the process.

[Almost_there]

58. The numbers are what makes it "interesting"

I guess the thing that piques my interest is the fact that 3.5 million people signed the recall petition. To me, those are staggering numbers. According to the US Dept of state, the population is 24,600,000 http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/1859.htm (I hope I didn't screw up the link...), and assuming roughly 60% are of voting age, that leaves call it 15,000,000 to vote, and 20% of those of eligible age signed a recall petition, SOMETHING has got to be going on.

I mean, revolutionary or not, is Chavez doing the right thing? Let's just assume that the signatures are valid, as the Carter Center did say, though with caveats. Didn't Marx say that revolution is a constant state, and that it never ceases? Has Chavez become corrupt? The bravado of a "100 year war" against the bushistas is great TV, but, was it more for his own people than our regime? Just speculating that maybe once he got into office, power, doing its old thing, corrupted him...

[Matilda]

67. I'm sorry, windansea, but I have searched the databases of Amnesty,

Human Rights Watch and the U.N., and I can find nothing to back up
your assertions that Chavez is guilty of violence, torture and
murder. The worst I can find are allegations that police beat up
opposition protesters during recent demonstrations. This isn't
good, but it's true of police everywhere unfortunately, and is not
sufficient evidence for the expulsion of an elected President.
It seems that there is also some censorship of the media, which is
never a good thing, but papers haven't been closed down, and
no-one has been killed or disappeared.

It seems that the worst the opposition has to fear is that they may
have to pay more tax, or forgo cheap labour if Chavez continues in
power, and while it may not be good for them, I fail to see how it's
bad for the country.

I just don't understand your problem with Chavez. If he was half as
bad as you seem to think, I don't think the opposition leaders would
still be alive.

[AP]

70. This is about the fourth lie that W' has spread that has been exposed

in the last day and I think that's why W has been so silent over the last 12 hours.

[windansea]

73. no one has been killed or disappeared??

Political Prisoners

In Caracas:

Luis Guillermo Perez Amoros PRISONER IN EL HELICOIDE
Pedro Vasquez, PRISONER IN EL HELICOIDE
Juan Francisco Conde,
Jorge Enrique Lopez,
Adan Lozano Duarte,
Alfredo Ramos,
Macario Gonzalez,
Cesar Bello,
Ismely Torrenz de Pulido,
Santiago Monteverde, PRISONER IN EL HELICOIDE
Carlos Melo,
Rodrigo Alegrett, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA, TORTURED
Jose Ricardo Di Guida De Sola,
Justo Mendoza,
Felix Clavijo,
John Segovia,
Francisco Otazo,
Pedro Sequera,
Jesús López,
Nelly Torres,
Oscar Giménez,
Orlando Duque,
Freddy Pineda,
Roger Padilla,
José Dorante,
Adelino García,
José Gabriel Revilla,
Eliécer Patiño,
Jesús Campos Rauseau,
Juan Carlos Asuaje,
Marcos Julio Vivas,
Humberto Agudo,
Ángel Muñoz,
Richard Alvarez,
Luis Navas,
Yalibeth Trejo,
María Vargas,
César Chacón,
Miguel Plá,
Ronald Rojas,
Jesús Rodríguez,
José Valenzuela,
Tomás Lozada,
José Manuel Mora,
Alejandro Colmenares Ochoa , RELEASED
Andres Ignacio Machado Nuñez ,
Carlos Roberto Chacon Lanz ,
Onofrio Anesse,
Ricardo Sanabria, RELEASED
Maria Gabriela Ventosilla, RELEASED
Juan Cristobal Mendoza,
Alejandro Helmeyer Tinoco,
Italo Ferrara (14 years old),
Daniel Blanco,
Espositto Miranda,
Jose la Rosa Angola,
Carlos Barrios Freites,
Bautista Jose Torres,
Jose Ramon Merlo, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
David Amundarain, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
Jose Rafael Peralta Medina, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
Heber Gustavo Prado, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
Angel Kemp Daviot, PRISONER IN LA PLANTA
Leonardo Ronei,
Wilmer Gonzalez,
Gonzalo Ayala Paez Pumar ,
Gerardo Ayala Paez Pumar (15 years old),
Domingo Bottome,
Luis Alfredo Caceres,
Richard Barros,
Lorenzo Carrieri,
Antonio Marquez Olmer,
Orlando Batista Torres,
Jorge Esposito Miranda,
Asdrubal Rojas ,
Angel Cacique, RELEASED
Andrés Ignacio Machado Nuñez
Oliver Marquez
Carlos Alfonso Martínez (arrested on December 30, 2002)
Roberto Rasquin, RELEASED
Miguel Angel Montes, PRISONER IN THE JUSTICE PALACE
In Vargas:

Rosines Garcia ,
Albimar Escalona ,
Carmen Gonzalez ,
Mauricio Ceballos ,
Reinaldo Hernandez ,
Edgar Acosta ,
Wendy Gonzalez ,
Nelson Estarada,
Ayari Molina,
Belsis Martinez,
Otto Villalta,
Eduardo Paiva,
Ilson Carrero,
Poco Gonzalez,
Bruno Dales,
Estela Romero,
Marcos Vargas,
Lisette Gutierrez,
Miguel Gutierrez
Bruno Gallo
In Carabobo:

Cesar Hernandez
Ronny Flores
In Lara:

Maria Eugenia Vargas Betancourt ,
Jesus Ramon Campos Rausseo ,
Jose Gabriel Revilla ,
Jesus Enrique Rodriguez Tortorella ,
Jose Eliezer Valenzuela Partidas ,
Orlando Duque Rivera ,
Nelson De la Rosa
Fernando De la Rosa
Francisca De la Rosa
Jose Caravallo
Ysmely Josefina Torrens Pulido
In Nueva Esparta:

Alexis Pereira,
Luis Perez ,
Ramon Narvaes
William Lopez
Jose Da Silva
In Falcon:

Crispulo Chavez,
Isaac Zabala,
Jorge Luis Ruiz,
Wilfredo Prieto,
Jaime González,
Jesús Barón,
Felipe Ramirez,
Karelis Chirinos,
Douglas Vargas,
Edgar Rodriguez,
Edgar Castro,
Julio Graterol,
Ronny Diaz,
Renny Gonzalez,
Leonardo Nelo,
Alexis Sanchez,
Abraham Moreno,
David Mosquera
Cesar Reyes
In Tachira:

Lenin Mora ,
Antonio Noguera ,
Armando Useche ,
Elsy de Peña,
William Forero,
Wilfrido Tovar,
Jacobo Supelano,
Orlando Pantaleon,
Saul Lozano,
Jorge Hinojosa,
Omar Guillen,
Jose Neira Celis,
David Rubio.
In Zulia:

Linden Gonzalez ,
Lilia Ranger
Romer Barrios ,
Jorge Rote ,
Daniny Beitia ,
Willians Garcia ,
Lexiss Hernandez ,
Yovanny Milano ,
Juan Garcia
Yovanny Gomez .
In Bolivar:

Percy Guzman.
In Guarico:

Juvenal Mendoza,
Jose Diaz,
Jhonny Seguak
In Trujillo:

Hermes Valera,
Fernando Lama,
Oswel Torres,
Jose Rivas Damiani
Javier Milla
In Merida:

Jesus Marcano,
Tulio Febres,
Ronald Molina
Jesus Vera
In Monagas:

Oscar Garcia,
Luis Rincones,
Ronny Rincones,
Oscar Gamboa,
Enrique Narvaes,
Yuber Espinoza
Luis Garcia
Assassinated or missing

Alberto Aumaitre (assassinated)
Juan Carlos Lugo (assassinated)
Jose Vilas (assassinated)
Omar Arturo Morales
Juan Jose Perez
Juan Ernesto Sanchez
Andres Bastidas Guedes
Jose Luis Rodriguez
Eduardo Jose Miranda
Julio Cesar Gomez
Rafael Tomas Pulido Marcano (APPEARED BADLY TORTURED)
Pedro Jose Sanchez Robles (assassinated)
William Jesus Alvarez (assassinated)
Yorby Suarez Moreno (assassinated)
Eva Carrizo (assassinated)
Dictor Damas (assassinated)
Bruno Biella (assassinated)
Marvin Carrasco
Nelly Rodriguez Martinez (assassinated)
Reyes Jose (assassinated)
Juan Carlos Zambrano (assassinated)
Argenis Dugarte (assassinated)
Jose Guevara Reyes (assassinated)
Jose Sanchez Robles (assassinated)
Jose Luis Ricaurte (assassinated)
José Antonio Quero
Carlos Armando López Martínez
Nelson Alexander Batista

Many people have been intoxicated by tear gas whilst some others have been wounded by buckshot. The National Guard has been utilising live ammunition. It has to be borne in mind that the constitution explicitly prohibits the usage of tear gas and rubber bullets to control public demonstrations (Art. 68), let alone weapons of war.

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403020624

Dear President Chavez,

We are disturbed by recent punitive actions taken by your government against the leaders of the opposition to you, and we are particularly concerned by the recent murders of people who were identified with that opposition.

In recent comments, particularly in response to OAS President Cesar Gavaria, you said that you were unimpressed by criticism of some of your government’s actions from people who had nothing to say when coups were being plotted. We are not in that category. Indeed, we have all spoken out against the American government’s involvement with any unconstitutional effort to overthrow your government, and we signed a letter to President Bush, which was widely publicized in the United States making that point. But our objection to any American action that would ignore the results of the last Venezuelan election should not be construed in any way as indifference to the importance in a democracy of respect for the untrammeled rights of a vigorous opposition and we must tell you that we are concerned that recent events in Venezuela call into question that respect.

We urge you to do everything possible to apprehend the murderers of those opposition figures to which we referred, to do everything possible to prevent any further violence against those who have been in the political opposition, and to refrain from prosecution of individuals based on the vigor of their opposition to you. We hope that all parties in Venezuela will engage energetically in political debate, leading up to electoral processes sanctioned by the Venezuelan Constitution, which all parties will agree to respect.


REP. BARNEY FRANK
REP. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY
REP. LYNN C. WOOLSEY
REP. MAURICE D. HINCHEY
REP. JOHN LEWIS
REP. BARBARA LEE
REP. DANNY K. DAVIS
http://www.house.gov/frank/venuzulea2003.html

orgs like AI and HRW are not courts of law that can prove human rights violations, but they have a stellar reputation for non political bias and are trusted worldwide....the proof of this is that they documented abuses by previous governments in Venezuela

the fact that you don't see them reporting current abuses by the opposition in Venezuela is telling...and if you want to discount their current alllegations against Chavez then you would have to discount their reports worldwide...I'm sure you don't want to do that.

[Matilda]

74. I don't know who these people are, or their stories ....

would you please post links (from unbiased sources) and I will read
what they have to say.

There have been opposition deaths such as these:

http://hrw.org/press/2003/02/venezuela021903.htm

and I'm prepared to accept that Chavez supporters may have been
guilty, but that doesn't mean that Chavez himself is personally
responsible. Of course, they should be investigated, and the
investigations should be open.

But when a democratically elected President still has majority
support, people who try to start rebellion in the streets and who
ally themselves with a foreign power to overthrow the government
can't expect that they won't be called to account.

As I said earlier, if Chavez was the tyrant you say he is, the
opposition would have all been rounded up and executed long ago.
It says a lot for the patience of Chavez, and his faith in the
Venezuelan people that he hasn't undertaken the kind of reprisals
we have so often seen from other Latin American right-wing
dictatorships.

[windansea]

78. those are real people on the list

and Congressman Frank's letter alludes to them, as do the reports at AI and HRW, those are the most unbiased sources I can cite....Chavez controls the investigative arms of the government now...so real proof will probably not be available until he is voted out.

what you may not understand is that a good portion of the opposition is composed of FORMER Chavez supporters, and includes a large chunk of the oppressed poor...who have seen through Chavez's populist rhetoric.

Many Venezuelans are also alarmed by the importation of 12,000 cuban "advisors" who are being placed in strategic positions in the military and security....they fear the grip of a socialistic dictatorship and the hand of Castro in their country.

The current opposition to Chavez is not a coup by elites..it is very broad based...3.5 million citizens signed the recall referendum with their fingerprints...and the constitutional law allowing this was supported by Chavez....he fears a fair vote for one simple reason..he has lost his mandate.

[Mika]

93. So foreign "advisors" in Venezuela is wrong, right?

Cuban and American and other "advisors" of interested nations is wrong, correct?

Or, are American "advisors" somehow above reproach when it comes to "advising" the opposition to the elected party?

[windansea]

97. I trust Carter, Frank, AI, HRW etc

over Chavez....I can see you don't

[Mika]

100. Huh? Where did I say that?

Jeez.. calm down.


Cuban and American and other "advisors" of interested nations in Venezuela is wrong, correct?

Or, are American "advisors" somehow above reproach when it comes to "advising" the opposition to the elected party?

Just asking your opinion on this subject.

Thanks

[windansea]

103. I trust Carter over Castro

hands down..no contest...and you?

[Mika]

123. I trust the people of Venezuela

But still, you didn't answer the question..

Cuban and American and other "advisors" of interested nations in Venezuela is wrong, correct?

Or, are American "advisors" somehow above reproach when it comes to "advising" the opposition to the elected party?

[windansea]

129. I trust them too

thats why I support their right to a recall vote

12,000 cubans infiltrating venezuelan army and security forces is not good...NED funding of opposition groups is good...Chavez is not a good guy...but these are just my opinions

Venezuelans will decide what they want...I support their right to decide

[Judi Lynn]

130. You need to provide a source for the charge

that 12,000 Cubans have INFILTRATED THE VENEZUELAN ARMY AND SECURITY FORCES. Oh, please.

How unbelievably stupid do you think American DEMOCRATS are?

This might fly in the 1950's, with the Joe McCarthy fanciers, but it's profoundly out of place here and now.

On edit:

By the way, we've been told the coup-plotters are identified and recognized in the Venezuelan armed services. Why would the government call on people from another country to go hide among the soldiers, etc. and SPY ON THEM? FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

[Mika]

131. Where's a link to the 12,000 Cuban "infiltrators"?

Where's a link to the 12,000 Cuban "infiltrators"?
I must have missed that one.

Could you post it for me? Thanks.



If foreign funding of opposition parties (as the NED does) is a good thing, then why is foreign funding of political parties illegal in the USA? Wouldn't any opposition party that did accept foreign aid or foreign "advisors" be painted as traitorous or unpatriotic?


So, from your answer regarding foreign "advisors' in Venezuela one could conclude that you think only US "advisors" in Venezuela are so absolutely squeaky clean and free from a foreign based (US) agenda that Venezuelans don't have anything to worry about?

[Judi Lynn]

133. Do you remember, Mika, that they used to claim

Cuba had sent 12,000 DOCTORS TO VENEZUELA who were working to destabilize the Venezuelan government, or "Cubanize" Venezuela?

When people started pointing out that Cuba simply DOESN'T HAVE 12,000 SPARE DOCTORS TO SEND TO DESTABILIZE, AND "CUBANIZE" VENEZUELA, they apparently have changed it over to a simple 12,000 CUBANS who are there to infiltrate the Venezuelan armed services.

Unbelievable.

[Mika]

135. When in doubt (re: Caribbean/L.A.), blame Castro

Its just so easy..

USA = Good
Cuba = Bad


Ahhh..... see? Critical thinking clears out the ol' cobwebs. :evilgrin:



Besides, Cuba couldn't give up so many doctors.. who would drive the taxicabs? ;-)

[Judi Lynn]

138. That's true enough! <grin>

Good point.

Their good hand-eye coordination spells fewer accidents!

[Mika]

140. Where's the link to the 12,000 Cuban "infiltrators"?

I came back to this thread fully expecting to see a link to a legitimate report on Cuba's 12,000 "infiltrators" operating in Venezuela than w&s was stating as fact.

Maybe later? :shrug:

[windansea]

142. here's a few

this article is a bit outdated, it was originally published in US News and World Report.

google "cubans in venezuela" and you will see many articles

Terror Close to Home
By Linda Robinson, U.S. News 6/10/03
Oct 2, 2003, 08:16

The oil-rich but politically unstable nation of Venezuela is emerging as a potential hub of terrorism in the Western Hemisphere, providing assistance to Islamic radicals from the Middle East and other terrorists, say senior U.S. military and intelligence officials. Bush administration aides see this as an unpredictably dangerous mix and are gathering more information about the intentions of a country that sits 1,000 miles south of Florida.

One thing that's clear is that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is fast becoming America's newest nemesis, U.S. officials say. He has forged close ties with Cuba's Fidel Castro and has befriended some of America's other notorious enemies, traveling to Saddam's Iraq and Qadhafi's Libya. Now, after surviving an attempted coup and a nationwide petition demanding his recall, Chavez is flirting with terrorism, and Washington is watching with increasing alarm.

"We are not disinterested spectators," says Roger Noriega, the new assistant secretary of state for Latin America. "Any actions that undermine democratic order or threaten the security and well-being of the region are of legitimate concern to all of Venezuela's neighbors." U.S. officials are monitoring three sets of developments:

Middle Eastern terrorist groups are operating support cells in Venezuela and other locations in the Andean region. A two-month review by U.S. News, including interviews with dozens of U.S. and Latin American sources, confirms the terrorist activity. In particular, the magazine has learned that thousands of Venezuelan identity documents are being distributed to foreigners from Middle Eastern nations, including Syria, Pakistan, Egypt, and Lebanon.

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=32&num=7396

Former comrade-in-arms resurfaces from nowhere to call President a coward

President Hugo Chavez Frias' former comrade-in-arms, Army Lt. Colonel (ret) Jesus Urdaneta Hernandez has resurfaced calling the President a "coward," who sees rebellions and attempts in every corner ... "whenever a government is against the wall, it commits all kinds of mistakes."

Urdaneta Hernandez, who was the Fifth Republic's first unaccountable State Political & Security (DISIP) Police director, warns Chavez Frias not to trust the Armed Force (FAN) because it is "democratic by nature" and he can only trust the Bolivarian Circles, 12,000 Cubans and Colombian guerrillas dispersed throughout Venezuela to defend him.

"The worst scenario for Chavez Frias is a recall referendum ... it will liquidate him nationally and internationally."

The former comrade alleges that 80% of military officers know that Chavez Frias violates the institutions and the Constitution ..." even though a lot of people of good fault believe he will accept the referendum, he is a dictator." Moreover, the same percentage of security forces will defend democracy and will act accordingly when the time comes.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=8902

IN just one month, Cuban planes have landed 73 times in Maiquetía Airport

Cubans keep coming

Congressman Pedro Castillo (MAS opposition party) requested an investigation after officials and airport staff made a series of claims about an alleged massive entry of Cubans

The arrival of planes packed with Cubans -and not metaphorically- has been systematic. Between September 26 and October 27, on all but two days contingents of pro-Castro Cubans have passed through the privileged entrance ramp No. 4 of Caracas' International Maiquetía Airport.

On September 29, the day with the highest activity, six planes arrived with a total of 950 Cubans. All of them were sent to the state of Mérida. In contrast, on October 8 and October 16 there was no flight from Havana.

http://www.el-universal.com/eng/noticia181103.shtml


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A61290-2003Dec12?language=printer

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

144. More disinfo! What the fuck man?

First Google searches for Linda Robinson took me to Freerepublic.com. Nice way to start. Second:

Venezuela's US Ambassador rejects US News &World Report as outrageous, false!

Venezuelanalysis.com reports that Venezuela's Ambassador to the United States, Bernardo Alvarez Herrera has sent a letter to the editors of the US News &World Report following an article entitled “Terror Close to Home” published in the October 6 issue of that magazine, in which author Linda Robinson links Venezuela's democratic government to terrorist organizations.

Ambassador Alvarez Herrera echoes complaints from the Venezuelan government with regard to Ms. Robinson's claims for which she does not offer any concrete verifiable proof. Ms. Robinson cites numerous “unnamed US government sources” to back her claims.


http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=11363


As far as another source is concerned. Make up your mind. Is VHeadline Chavez propaganda or not? You claim it is. In this article they repeat what some asshole said about 12,000 Cubans and Colombian guerrillas. Where's his proof?


Then you use El Universal, yeah that's convincing. Then the PentaPost...err I mean Washington Post. They would never side with the bush mis administration and spread their lies. Would they?

You have to do better than that to get your disinformation across.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[plurality]

59. Questions are fine

1. If the signatures are valid then fine, let there be a vote, but the problem is that theres some dispute over this. You see, the opposition has been know to use dirty tricks to get their way. Examples include murdering their own supporters in the hopes people would believe Chavez did it.

http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2004/12.html

This led to a coup where the opposition installed a dictator for a day who then promptly disolved the legislature, and judiciary. Sounds like some lovers of democracy, huh?

Other dirty tricks include trying to sabotage the oil industry during their 'strike' to wreck Venezuela's economy, hoping this would force out Chavez.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73427,00.html

Only after every illegal method was attempted did the opposition decide that it should attempt to go the legal route by petitioning for the recall. But judging by their past actions should they be entirely trusted? Maybe you're more forgiving than me, but I wouldn't be so quick to take the word of people who just tried to overthrow an elected government and install a dictator. Plus it's also not very accurate to compare this to the California recall drive. The Venezuelan opposition is funded by millions of US dollars. Tell me, do you think it would have been ok if the recall Gray Davis petition drive, and Arnold Schwarzenegger's campaign were funded by the government of Iran?

[Almost_there]

61. Excellent points...

At the time of the oil strikes, I was unaware of the financial backing of any foreign money. I thought it was merely the oil industry (which I gather to be the driving force in Venezuela's economy) attempt to get Chavez to step down. Were the strikes ended peacefully, or not so much? I can't recall, my thinker is on strike this evening.

The pictures that windansea posted were striking to say the least, I mean, who doesn't recall John Filo's picture? I just don't like forming a cast iron opinion when I can see photos of government goons beating the living crap out of protestors, and on the other side, money backing up a potential legal coup, coming from where? The US? Big oil? Or Venezuelan elite? California was sponsored by that SOB elitist, don't forget. And if memory serves, Chavez rewrote the constitution in what? 1999? I just want to make sure that he isn't watching the constitution bite him on the ass and wants to make it stop. If you get my drift.

And about Castro on an earlier thread, I guess I am just not a fan of his. A friend of mine is here because his parents escaped when Castro came into power. They were supporters of his, but, they quickly became disillusioned and saw the winds of change, made it to the US, and have never looked back. They left with nothing, and other than going to the occasional Cuban food restaurant, his parents nor he have any intention of stepping foot back in Cuba until a democratic government is set up. So, as far as I am concerned, Cuba is one place where "socialism" really means 'dictatorship'.

~Almost

[plurality]

62. One must always remember politics has two axises

Left-right for economics and authoritarian-libertarian on for freedom. One can be left and authoritarian or right and libertine or vice-versa, one doesn't preclude the other. While I try not to defend Castro you must also take into account the fact that there's a huge monster (the US) less than 90 miles away that's hell bent on overthrowing you. I mean look at what Bush is doing here and the threat of terrorism is nothing compared to what we can do to Cuba.

But I digress, the topic at hand is Venezuela not Cuba and Castro, so on to your other points.

The strike was organized by oil company executives and many other elites in Venezuela. In fact for the most part it wasn't a strike at all, but a lock out, as most of the owners and managers told their employees they'd be fired if they didn't join in. While there were some problems at protests it ended relatively free of violence. The violence that did occur was caused by both sides, while the Army can get out of hand at these protests, the pictures that windansea doesn't show are the opposition protestors throwing molotov cocktails at the Army as they have been know to do.

And yes Chavez was instrumental in the revising of the Constitution in 1999, but it's not like he rewrote it, as has been often stated, the Constitution was changed by popular referendum.

And I also understand how it could look like Chavez simply sees the writing on the wall and doesn't want the process to unfold, but if you look at the entire context of the situation you'll see that he's actually been quite reasonable given the circumstances. For instance, did you know that some of the coup perpetrators are still in Venezuela and that Chavez has done nothing to them? Think about it some, would Castro or any despot for that matter allow people who actually acted to overthrow their government allow those people to go free? I think you the answer to that. So please take into consideration that if Chavez were really as brutal as the opposition makes him out to be, there'd be thousands dead as opposed to the few that have actually happened. After all he can't be expected to keep all his supporters in line.

Take Haiti for example, Bush and windansea say that Aristide deserved to be ousted because a tiny majority of his supporters acted violently, now there are death squads going around. The most important thing you have to realize in these cases is that these nations don't have the long periods of stable government that we've been able to enjoy. Many of these nations have only recently come from a time when it was not uncommon for you to wind up decapitated in the road for even thinking about the criticizing the regime. I consider it a true indicator of just how commited to democracy Chazev relly is that he hasn't resorted to the brutality that used to be the law of the land in Latin America.

[Almost_there]

63. Great points...

I hadn't known about the other angles, and I understand what you mean about Chavez not cracking down on demonstrators and the recall process itself, but, its a catch 22, isn't it? The second that he does crack down on the very freedoms that were imposed by the 1999 constitution, de facto he would have suspended it, and essentially ended his own legitimacy. Its the proverbial rock and a hard place.

He is in power because he was democratically elected, and in order to stay, he and his people now play by a defined set of rules. Rules can be bent (see: Bush v. Gore, 2000 haha) but, to out right break the rules is another matter, I would hope. So, perhaps he is stuck. He came in on the constitution and the will of the people, and if things continue, and I do give great weight to the Carter center, he might be removed by the constitution.

As to Haiti, I actually think that Aristede was corrupt. Perhaps I am being to harsh on people that come into power and let the power get a hold over them, but, I don't buy into the fact that the revolt in Haiti was "just a few people". Aristede's supporters were the looters in Port-au-Prince long before the coup de etat reached the border of the city, the tires were burning, the streets were littered with cars lit as barricades... Scorched earth is what comes to mind. I see Aristede as a man who came from the street preaching to the people, and was enveloped by not the office of President but by the power that it held, the fact that the US supported him, and then we turned our backs on him when the winds of change blew for like the 250th time in 250 years in Haiti. The US was pathetic, but, I don't see Aristede as a saint. Sure, we "let" it happen, could have stopped it with a few hundred marines, but, would it have ended, or would the feelings of unrest simmered and festered, and exploded in 3 months? 6 months? 5 years? Marx has said revolution is unending. I simply think Aristede (in my opition, please don't make me dig for an NY Times article from February! lol) was corrupt, and had built a small little empire for himself.

~Almost

[pescao]

64. do some more digging than the NYT!

>I simply think Aristede (in my opition, please don't make me dig for an NY Times article from February! lol) was corrupt, and had built a small little empire for himself.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1117

Haiti as Target Practice: How the US Press Missed the Story

By: Heather Williams - Counterpunch

Now that bodies are littering the streets of Cap Haitien and Port Au Prince, major print news outlets have seen well enough to send a handful of cameramen and correpondents to send back news of the crisis. Even so, the campaign of violence that has finally ousted Haitian President Aristide has been investigated and reported to the American public with appalling indolence. The official reasoning appears to be that if Haiti is the hemisphere's eternal basket case-a dismal repository of poverty where there is no future-- how on earth could its past possibly matter?

But those who view Haiti's current violence as merely one of an eternal humanitarian crisis in temporary overdrive miss the story. It is no simple tale of a corrupt regime collapsing under the weight of popular anger and bad management. A cursory glance at events of the last fourteen years suggests that the fall of the Aristide regime was a foregone conclusion at the entrance of President George W. Bush and the installation of a cabal of appointees with a grim record of utilizing official and covert channels to destabilize uncooperative governments in the Western Hemisphere. What is immediately ominous about the current crisis in Haiti is the likely prospect that leaders of armed groups making a final assault on the capital will play important roles in a post-Aristide order. Such armed groups include the Tontons Macoutes, the gunmen who viciously supervised repression under both father and son Duvaliers' dictatorships until 1986. They also include members of the disbanded Haitian army that held power for three years following the coup against President Aristide in 1991, and the FRAPH death squads that mowed down the ranks of democratic civil society during that period, leaving over 3,000 dead and thousands more in exile. What is also now worrisome about this crisis is what it likely indicates about the intentions of the U.S. State Department and security apparatus elsewhere in the Caribbean.

Now that Aristide's government, protected by a flimsy police force and a smattering of civilian gangs, has collapsed, quiet references in news stories and opinion pieces suggest that editors are wishing that perhaps they had a few more questions along the way about what indeed was going on in Haiti. Notably, until mid-February of this year The New York Times instructed its readers, for weeks on end, with no evidence whatsoever, that the armed groups referred to generically and occasionally quite sympathetically as "rebels" represent a home-grown anti-Aristide opposition. For weeks the New York Tinmes used AP and Reuters dispatches to present the Haitian crisis as one simply of domestic protest and unrest. It wasn't until February 15 that the NYT's own reporter, Lydia Polgreen bothered to mention that the group marching on Gonaïves known a the Cannibal Army was led by "sinister figures from past," including the infamous Louis-Jodel Chamblain, a soldier who led death squads in the 1980s through the mid-1990s and was convicted in absentia for his involvement in the murder of Antoine Izméry, a well-known pro-democracy activist. Also unexplored by the same reporters were reports that the groups terrorizing Gonaïves had come from across the border, from the Dominican Republic. Given this knowledge, it is curious that no reporter then bothered to inquire how these groups obtained ample caches of brand-new M-16s, M-60s, armor piercing weapons, all-terrain vehicles, and rocket-propelled grenade launchers-equipment far beyond the reach of the Haiti's own impecunious security forces.

Was the story too dangerous to investigate? Was the situation indecipherable? Was the prospect of a weak regime giving way to another in the hemisphere's poorest country just not a story worth the time and effort? The tragedy of this episode is that much of it was abundantly transparent. Running a sixty-second web search on any of the principals involved leads one to a fetid two-decade history of CIA and U.S. ultra-right subterfuge in Haiti. The fact that the group in charge of Haiti policy today in the State Department has been literally gunning for Aristide since before his initial election as a champion of democracy in 1990 has been left all but unmentioned by the press. Also forgotten is the fact that members of the armed groups burning their way through Haiti's cities today include groups that, (according to myriad sources including sworn testimony before Congress by U.S. officials, reporters, and reports of Haitian recipients of covert aid,) were funneling drugs to the U.S. while in the pay of U.S. intelligence agents.

...

[plurality]

65. time will tell with Chavez

And pray tell, why would you say Aristide was corrupt. By no means was the revolt just a few people, there were thousands that were left out in the cold after Aristide took over from the death squads that ruled the day before he came to pass. The only question is, where did they get the weapons? Brand new body armor, fully automatic M-16 rifles, rocket propelled grenade launchers, motars, helicopters, you know you can't buy these from your neighborhood pawn shop. Somehow I don't think this is your run of the mill, torch and pitch-fork get rid of the tyrant popular revolt.

And since when did the US EVER support Aristide? We helped topple him within a month of his being elected in 1991, and that was after giving his opponent millions of dollars in Haitis first ever election. Should we have allowed the British to give campaign contributions to George Washington's opponent after the Revolutionary War, because that's in a sense what happened in Haiti, and Aristide still won. Then when Clinton sent him back in 1994 we kept the country so bogged down in sanctions that there was nothing Aristide could do. However he did give his people schools or tried to at least. He also tried to give them doctors, something a nation with the highest AIDS population in the Western Hemisphere could use. But for some reason our government thought it best to continue starving this nation. And of course now, he's gone, and what do we have in his place death squads, guns, and another dictator, sounds like just what the doctor ordered.

I'd provide some links for you, but unfortunately I'm quite tired, however it shouldn't be too difficult to find if you're interested in learning. Try googling these 'papa doc+haiti' and 'baby doc+haiti' then 'ton ton macoute+haiti', then 'aristide+haiti+schools', and finally 'aristide+haiti+doctors'. Have fun.

[Matilda]

68. I think the greatest "crime" of both Chavez and Aristide

is that they are both nationalists - i.e. they want to see a better
deal for the poor of the their countries. With Chavez, it's about
the oil wealth being used for the education, housing and health of
the poorest sectors of the community, with Aristide it was his
desire to increase the pathetic wages of the sweat-shop workers. In
both cases, these policies are not good for the interests of the
big international companies which profit from seeing wages and
conditions kept low.

He probably wasn't a saint, in countries like Haiti you have to take
tough measures to make sure you survive (literally), but I think he
genuinely desired the betterment of his people. And no way did he
live the kind of lifestyle enjoyed by previous rulers, such as the
Duvaliers. The money simply wasn't there, thanks largely to the
U.S. for cutting off funds.

You may not be old enough to remember the Duvaliers, but I am, and
they were thugs, thieves, murderers and torturers of the worst sort.
The fact that many of their old supporters are among the rebels
should be enough warning to everyone, and if "Baby Doc" Duvalier
wants to go back to Haiti, there's only one reason - he will feel
very comfortable with the new regime. And that is certainly not
good for the poor of Haiti.

[AP]

71. In Haiti, I thik Aristides problem was that the gov't had no money to do

anything because the rich wouldn't pay their taxes.

When you can't pay anyone and can't buy anything, the people in your government are probably less likely to do the right thing. Many of them were probably bought off by the oligarchs to continue to do their bidding. Meanwhile, the poor are wondering why life still sucks.

So the rich aren't paying taxes, they're buying corruption, and they blame Aristide.

The rich were having their cake and eating it in terms of discrediting Aristide.

[AP]

66. "Now there are death squads going around."

And is anyone surprised? Wasn't it perfectly clear that the fascist alternative to Aristide was death squads? No.

And isn't it obvious what the VZ opposition is going to do if they take over? It's perfectly obvious.

[Vladimir]

75. Yeah but

the gorgeous Venezuelan middle classes won't have to share with the poor anymore so its all A-OK!

V

[windansea]

72. whoa horsey

"Take Haiti for example, Bush and windansea say that Aristide deserved to be ousted because a tiny majority of his supporters acted violently"

I never said that....I don't condone violent anti Aristide thugs or pro Arsistide thugs...period

I do think Aristide is a fauz populist, and I don't think he was kidnapped or forced to resign at gunpoint...check the threads to confirm this

[Matilda]

76. I think Aristide was forced to resign by the U.S.

If his resignation was genuine, he would have made the announcement
himself to the people before leaving. It would not have been handed
to a U.S. marine - there are protocols for this sort of situation.

Once again, there was a situation where the majority support was
still with the elected President, but U.S. troops on the ground said
they couldn't protect him from the rebels. Bullshit.

I think Aristide made two big mistakes - he wanted to raise the
minimum wages of the poorest workers to a level that was still well
below subsistence, and he wanted the wealthy to pay tax.

We are used to seeing a knee-jerk reaction from the U.S. to any
regime that even vaguely sounds socialist - i.e. the leaders want
something to be given back to the people, no more - and it's so
stupid. Most of the Latin American countries have sorry histories
of dictatorships and military juntas bleeding the people dry, and
when they get a leader who simply wants to level the playing field
a little, the U.S. gets paranoid and starts undermining the
government, even though it may be elected fair and square by the
majority (and that's more than Bush can say).

In Cuba, Castro was preceded by the Batistas, darlings of the Mafia,
and Havana for decades was the Mafia playground. In Haiti,
Aristide was preceded by the Duvaliers, two of the most bloody and
corrupt rulers in my living memory. Both regimes were supported
in power by the U.S. to advance its own interests, and bugger the
people. You cannot seriously believe that a return to the "old days"
would be an improvement, but in each case, and in the case of
Venezuela, that is what the opposing parties want. It's unfair,
it's undemocratic, and I'm surprised that anyone on this forum can
support such ideas.

[windansea]

80. I don't support a return to the "old days"

nor do I support faux populists who place a thin socialistic veneer over the same policies they purport to oppose.

democracy evolves, and people get smarter...hopefullly

I support fair voting, human rights, and democratically empowered constitutional laws...my support for these rights is invulnerable.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

87. So, how come you're supporting groups that are attempting to overthrow...

...the duly elected gov't of Venezuela, and those same groups are allied with the NeoCons?

Should we read anything into that relationship?

And how does that relationship affect your so-called support of "fair voting, human rights, and democratically empowered constitutional laws"?

[windansea]

90. a few clues

the constitutional law which allows for midterm referendums in Venezuela was supported by Chavez

3.5 million venezuelans signed and fingerprinted their support for said referendum

confusing this democratic process with your perception of neocon objectives is clouding your perception

nobody is "overthrowing" a government...they just want to vote on it

[Media_Lies_Daily]

89. The news I've seen on this subject indicates Aristide was indeed...

....kidnapped. He himself stated that to be true during phone conversations he held from the plane in which he was riding and certain people on the ground.

So, if you're not telling the truth on this subject, why should we bother to read your posts in the future?

[windansea]

91. Senator Harkin spoke with Aristide

on the night of the supposed coup

it was his impression that Aristide was not coerced into resigning nor kidnapped...

[Judi Lynn]

95. We've read that

Among those who said they had spoken by phone with Aristide Monday were Reps. Charles Rangel of Harlem and Maxine Waters of California, and Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa, all Democrats.

Reached Monday evening, a spokeswoman for Harkin said: "Senator Harkin does not believe that was kidnapped, and he does believe that he resigned."

But the spokeswoman, Allison Dobson, added that Harkin thought Aristide resigned "under tremendous pressure that built up" after the Bush administration failed to send troops to protect him last week.
(snip/...)

~~~~ link ~~~~

Why on earth do you think that's going to flip out DU'ers? It's possible there were elements he just didn't grasp, questions he didn't as, answers he didn't yet have when he made that statement.

We DO know what was said by people who spoke with him for longer of periods, and up close. They were convinced the man was taken by direct threat of complete violence.

You're not going to get anywhere trying to separate DU'ers who loathe _Bush's vicious, immoral plot against Aristide, from either Aristide OR respect for Paul Harkin.

[windansea]

99. flipping DUers out

is not my intention...I'm just relying on Harkin's statements because I trust him.

[Zhade]

137. Let me save you some time. Ignore windansea.

Most of us consider him a disinformation agent (he also uses right-wing sources like the Washington Times). If you want some great info, pay attention to people like Tinoire.

At least, that's my advice. You're free to decide for yourself, of course. :)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

141. I agree -

Windansea and his mysterious girlfriend are agents of the Oligarchy and their propaganda mills.

[Judi Lynn]

69. For any of the growing number of DU'ers interested in Venezuelan info.

I just found this great time line, and hope you'll enjoy taking a look at some of these entries: 1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the oil industry.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the central bank.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1976-1996 The political establishment has accumulated a growing control over the country’s assets.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1982 In Venezuela Hugo Chavez and other junior officers formed a secret group, the Bolivarian Revolutionary Movement 200 (MBR-200), and vowed to change their society. They made their 1st coup attempt in 1992.
(WSJ, 6/12/03, p.A10)

1987-1991 Gen Ramon Guillen Davila headed the CIA-financed Venezuelan National Guard antinarcotics group. During his tenure 1-2 tons of cocaine were smuggled into the US. He was indicted by a federal grand jury in Miami in 1996,
(WSJ, 11/22/96, p.A12)(SFC, 11/23/96, p.A2)

1988 Dec 4, In Venezuela, former President Carlos Andres Perez was declared the winner of the country's presidential election.
(AP, 12/4/98)

1989 Carlos Andres Peres took office and instituted bold reform plans. Increases in fuel costs and government reforms in Venezuela sparked extensive rioting and looting with hundreds of people killed.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1)(WSJ, 5/22/96, p.A-16)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1991 US Customs intercepted a large cocaine shipment and began investigations. It was found to be part of a CIA operation out of Venezuela.
(WSJ, 11/22/96, p.A12)

1992 Feb 4, In Caracas, Venezuela, there was a coup attempt but Lt. Col. Chavez failed to capture the presidential Palace and was forced to surrender. He served 2 years in prison.
(WSJ, 6/12/03, p.A10)

1992 Nov 27, In Venezuela some 15,000 rebel forces under Lt. Col. Hugo Chavez tried but failed to overthrow President Carlos Andres Perez for the second time in 10 months. The coup left dozens dead and Chavez was jailed for 2 years and then pardoned by Pres. Rafael Caldera. Chavez was elected president Dec 6, 1998.
(AP, 11/27/97)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)(SFC, 12/7/98, p.A9)

1993 Aug 31, Venezuela president Carlos Perez fled.
(MC, 8/31/01)

1993 Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was impeached. He was later charged with misusing $17 million security fund for election debts and a lavish inauguration.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)

1994 Financial controls were imposed on the currency and the exchange rate was set to 170 to the US dollar. Almost the entire private banking system had to be nationalized at a cost of $8.5 billion, equivalent to three-quarters of the national budget. Responsible bankers took much of the money and fled abroad.
(WSJ, 12/12/95, p.A-15)(SFC, 12/8/99, p.A17)

1996 May 30, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was convicted on corruption charges. He was sentenced to prison for 28-months and fined for misappropriation of $17 million from a secret security spending fund.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)(SFC, 5/28/97, p.A12)

1996 Aug 1, The tax authorities increased the general sales tax to 16.5% from 12.5%. There has been a 108% rate of inflation over the last 12 months. Transparency Int’l., a Berlin base nongovernmental anticorruption organization, rate Venezuela as the most corrupt country in the Western hemisphere.
(WSJ, 8/9/96, p.A11)

1998 Apr, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez (76) and Cecilia Matos, his longtime mistress and personal secretary, were charged with depositing funds in US banks that far exceeded their earnings as public officials.
(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1998 Nov 8, In Venezuela a leftist coalition led by Hugo Chavez, the Patriotic Pole movement, won a majority in parliament. The Democratic Action and Copei parties won most of the 23 governorships. Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez won a senate seat in Tachira. Corruption charges against Perez were later dropped due to senatorial immunity.
(SFC, 11/10/98, p.A10)(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1999 Aug 12, The Constitutional Assembly assumed sweeping powers and declared a state of emergency for the courts.
(SFC, 8/13/99, p.D3)

1999 Aug 19, The Constitutional Assembly declared a judicial emergency and gave itself new powers to overhaul the court system.
(SFC, 8/20/99, p.D3)

1999 Aug 25, In Venezuela the constitutional assembly declared a legislative emergency and usurped most of the functions of Congress.
(SFC, 8/26/99, p.A12)

1999 Aug 27, In Venezuela members of Congress clashed with police as they attempted to defy a government ban on conducting a legislative session.
(SFC, 8/28/99, p.A1)

1999 Aug 28, Congress members announced that they would refuse to authorize funds for the constitutional panel and would withhold legal permission for Pres. Chavez to leave the country.
(SFEC, 8/29/99, p.A22)

1999 Aug 30, The constitutional assembly stripped the opposition-controlled Congress of its last remaining powers.
(SFC, 8/31/99, p.A13)

1999 Oct 21, In Venezuela corruption cases against 2 former presidents, Carlos Andres Perez and Jaime Lusinchi, were reopened.
(SFC, 10/22/99, p.B4)

Timeline continues to December, 2003
http://timelines.ws/countries/VENEZUELA.HTML

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



This is the impeached criminal President against whom Chavez led the coups, Carlos Andres Perez. You read that Chavez was pardoned afterwards, something our own media ALWAYS forget to mention.

[Judi Lynn]

85. I don't know which of these threads has W&S showing a list of DISSAPPEARED

but here's a response from Hugo Chavez to the "opposition" concerning their latest scam, claiming members of their grubby group have suddenly disappeared:

Published: Monday, March 15, 2004
Bylined to: Patrick J. O'Donoghue

President Chavez Frias challenges opposition to produce list of disappeared

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Frias has thrown down the gauntlet calling on opponents to produce a list of persons supposedly disappeared by Venezuelan security forces.

Choosing a symbolical historical site to launch his challenge to an opposition offensive to make out that Venezuela is full of political prisoners and human rights violations, President Chavez Frias issued a message from El Burro island on Lake Tacarigua near Valencia (Carabobo) which was once a torture center and prison for political prisoners during the Fourth Republic.

"Show proof and stop crying and calling on Washington!" The President says the 1999 Constitution prohibits any official or soldier from obeying orders by whomsoever to torture or disappear anybody.

"Not only is the opposition screeching about alleged violations, it is inventing stories," Chavez Frias told people listening to his Sunday radio address and he says he wants the names of those disappeared ... "I can forward names of those disappeared during the government of Betancourt, Caldera I, Carlos Andres Perez and Lusinchi ... if there is any case of torture, anyone breaking the Constitution, it will be penalized but it's bound to be the exception to the rule ... let the opposition show their face and not go off crying to Washington or Europe to seek help."
(snip)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16382

[windansea]

94. Barney Frank, Barbara Lee

or Chavez....hmmmmmm..... who should I believe??


Dear President Chavez,

We are disturbed by recent punitive actions taken by your government against the leaders of the opposition to you, and we are particularly concerned by the recent murders of people who were identified with that opposition.

In recent comments, particularly in response to OAS President Cesar Gavaria, you said that you were unimpressed by criticism of some of your government’s actions from people who had nothing to say when coups were being plotted. We are not in that category. Indeed, we have all spoken out against the American government’s involvement with any unconstitutional effort to overthrow your government, and we signed a letter to President Bush, which was widely publicized in the United States making that point. But our objection to any American action that would ignore the results of the last Venezuelan election should not be construed in any way as indifference to the importance in a democracy of respect for the untrammeled rights of a vigorous opposition and we must tell you that we are concerned that recent events in Venezuela call into question that respect.

We urge you to do everything possible to apprehend the murderers of those opposition figures to which we referred, to do everything possible to prevent any further violence against those who have been in the political opposition, and to refrain from prosecution of individuals based on the vigor of their opposition to you. We hope that all parties in Venezuela will engage energetically in political debate, leading up to electoral processes sanctioned by the Venezuelan Constitution, which all parties will agree to respect.


REP. BARNEY FRANK
REP. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY
REP. LYNN C. WOOLSEY
REP. MAURICE D. HINCHEY
REP. JOHN LEWIS
REP. BARBARA LEE
REP. DANNY K. DAVIS
http://www.house.gov/frank/venuzulea2003.html

[Ignis]

96. It's a tape loop!

The appeal to authority fallacy won't get you anywhere, no matter how many times you selectively quote the same three documents.

[windansea]

98. LOL

your opinion is duly noted as an anonymous unknown poster with zip cedibility...when you can support your opinions with credible sources I might pay attention.

[Ignis]

101. Fallacies: The last refuge of the witless.

And thank you very much for proving my point with yet another version of the appeal to authority fallacy.

PS: I've been around DU since pre-Y2K. :hi: Yourself?

[windansea]

102. thanks for proving my point

with another citeless blast of your opinion

your longevity here is irrelevant

[TankLV]

104. In those immortal words: Same to you buddy!

People:

Ignor this poster.

He is not worth the effort.

He is clueless.

He just a broken record.

He is no friend of democracy. He supports buknkerboy. That's all you need to know.

This is the last time I will keep his threads kicked.

[Ignis]

107. Oh dear. It's like explaining cricket to gibbons.

A critique of a logical fallacy as employed by yourself (over and over and over again...) in an argument does not require citing a source. If you are not familiar with the basics thereof, I'd be happy to provide links to several online indices of logical fallacies.

If I am, as you claim, 'an anonymous unknown poster with zip cedibility', then I should very much like to hear how you differ from the above characterization. Presuming that your full legal name is not the same as your board alias, I fail to see how I am any more anonymous than you are--less so, in fact, by virtue of your having blocked your profile, I should imagine. Hence, our relative terms of service in this forum would seem to be a good place to establish a baseline for anonymity, no?

After all, if anonymity and authority concern you greatly, I should think you'd be happy to lay all of your cards on the table in this matter.

[windansea]

117. the difference is

you offer anonymous opinions lacking sources and thus credibility

I offer my opinions plus cites from Carter Center, the UN, Barney Frank, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc etc

sounds like a tough decision....

:evilgrin:

[AP]

132. You offer yourself, yet your credibility is on the rocks.

You offered pictures of the NG that alleged they were doing the OPPOSITE of the truth. The opposition were shooting at a homeless man, and the NG were pulling him to safety.

You have no credibility.

[Judi Lynn]

134. That kind of nerve seems to come from desperation.

It's just not bright at all to claim they were trying to harm the man, when even the body language of the men in the photo would indicate anything BUT intention to bring him any pain.

How COULD anyone be unable to pick up on that?

[Judi Lynn]

105. How would you square the racist poison pouring from Globovision

"A deplorable and reiterated insult to human dignity"
Racist Comments in Venezuelan TV “an Offense to the African People”, African Ambassadors Say

Sunday, Mar 14, 2004
Caracas, Mar 14 (Venezuelanalysis.com).- As “a grotesque and indecent spectacle full of racist content” a group of Ambassadors from African nations in Venezuela described the ridicule of the President of Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe in a local TV show broadcasted by the commercial network Globovision.

A letter sent to the General Manager of Globovision, Alberto Federico Ravell, by representatives of several diplomatic missions from Africa (including Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Saharawi, South Africa and Nigeria) expressed deep rejection and astonishment for what they consider to be offensive remarks “against the African people and human dignity”.
(snip)

Racism in Venezuelan commercial TV

The Chavez administration is the only government in the history of Venezuela to allow the local media to make fun of government politicians or the President. In spite of that, the opposition and the commercial media who oppose Chavez call the government “a Castro-communist dictatorship.” However, this is the first incident in which the leader of a country is ridiculed in such manner.

The Minister of Education, Aristobulo Isturiz, who is black, has been called “a monkey” and “an ape”, by commercial media political commentators who oppose the government.
(snip)


"Aló Ciudadano" host and Chavez opponent Leopoldo Castillo laughs at the President of Zimbabwe, who reminded him of the movie “The Planet of the Apes”.
Photo: Globovision TV.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1226

Can you imagine that piece of crap making fun of ANYONE?

We've heard of the astonishing things the "opposition" say about Hugo Chavez. Really stupid, really uncouth, really uncivilized. They say these things on their tv stations, radio stations.

What makes you think American Democrats would want to support your right-wing racist Venezuelan buttheads?

[windansea]

109. lots of people make unfortunate racist comments

Trent Lott....Hilary Clinton...

trying to paint supporters of said individuals as indactive of an entire movement are pathetic

[windansea]

106. Chavez hails Mugabe as "freedom fighter"

February 28, 2004 - Arriving in Venezuela after a long plane trip from Harare, Zimbabwe's despot Robert Mugabe rapidly proceeded to fall asleep while Chávez was giving a speech and went on to drop the replica of Bolívar's sword presented to him by Chávez. Robert Mugabe, said the beaming Chávez, "is a true warrior of freedom."

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200402280436



Chavez hails visiting Mugabe





Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez receives his Zimbabwean counterpart Robert Mugabe at the presidential palace in Caracas.
(Egilda Gomez, Miraflores Press, AP)

Caracas, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez praised Zimbabwe's embattled President Robert Mugabe as a "freedom fighter," bestowing the visiting African leader with a replica of South American independence hero Simon Bolivar's sword.

"I give you a replica of liberator Simon Bolivar's sword," Chavez said Thursday after the two leaders signed an energy co-operation agreement.

"For you, who like Bolivar, took up arms to liberate your people. For you, who like Bolivar, are and will always be a true freedom fighter," Chavez said. "He continues, alongside his people, to confront the pretensions of new imperialists."

Mugabe, who was in Venezuela for the February 27-28 summit of the G-15 group of developing nations, grinned as he unsheathed the sword and swung it about. Mugabe came to power in 1980 after a seven-year bush war for black rule forced a peace conference and British-supervised elections in Zimbabwe, then known as Rhodesia.

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-259_1490385,00.ht...

[Judi Lynn]

108. Where's the link?

When you have posted the link, please post your thoughts on the article.

If you intend to start a Mugabe thread, General Discussion would probably be the place for it.

[windansea]

110. the links are included

my thoughts??? Chavez is a goon who lauds creeps like Mugabe.

let me know when you are a moderator and can direct the placement of posts.

[Judi Lynn]

111. Your link has joined the choir celestial.

It ceases to be. It is no more.

I have been waiting to hear your thoughts about the unstaunched, poisonous, and laughable racism of the opposition, the opposition's media toward people who are not of European ancestry.

I've brought it up at least twice on this thread, and you are avoiding it.

[windansea]

115. avoiding it?

Anti-President Hugo Chavez members Marta Rivera, left, and Alejandro Majarres, 6, wave Venezuelan flags to celebrate the Supreme Court electoral chamber's order to overturn a decision by the National Elections Council to force more than 870,000 citizens to confirm they signed the petitions seeking a vote to recall Chavez, in Caracas, Venezuela, Monday, March 15, 2004. The ruling can be overturned by the Supreme Court's constitutional chamber, and the opposition has announced a march for Tuesday to the Supreme Court to celebrate the high court's ruling. (AP Photo/Leslie Mazoch)



I have posted many sources that show the opposition is broad based and multi ethnic/economic....your racial baiting is similar to desperate ploys Chavez is using...to no effect

[Judi Lynn]

118. I see a few standing in a little clump the camera is focusing on

and one black man in the distance. Is this your idea of proof the opposition in Venezuela is not mindlessly, hatefully racist?

I'll stick with this description:

Opposition spokesmen complain that Chavez is a leftist who is leading the country to economic chaos, but underlying the fierce hatred is the terror of the country's white elite when faced with the mobilised mass of the population, who are black, Indian and mestizo. Only a racism that dates back five centuries - of the European settlers towards their African slaves and the country's indigenous inhabitants - can adequately explain the degree of hatred aroused. Chavez - who is more black and Indian than white, and makes no secret of his aim to be the president of the poor - is the focus of this racist rage.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,858019,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

that's what it's all about. Race and class. Whatever else you hear about Venezuela, this is the story in a single frame. Like apartheid-riven South Africa, the whites, 20% of the population, have the nation's wealth under lock and key. The Rich Fifth have command of the oil wealth, the best jobs, the English-language lessons, the imported clothes, the vacations in Miami, the plantations.

That is, until Hugo Chavez came along.

Now the brown people, like community activist Lara -- and President Chavez himself-- have a piece of the action. "Negro y indio," Chavez calls himself. Black and Indian. And the blondes don't like it.
(snip/...)

http://www.gregpalast.com/blog.cfm

[windansea]

124. Fidel must be very upset

with the supreme court ruling in Venezuela...

one day we should have a discussion of current racial equality in the workers paradise...yes??

[Judi Lynn]

128. Why are you discussing Fidel Castro?

Why are you using his first name? Are you acquainted with him?

Why did you say "we?"

If you want to start a thread on race problems in Cuba, you need to go to General Discussion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On edit:

If you want to turn your thread into a Cuba race relations thread, it's going to take a lot longer as we start looking up references for you to not read. Even though you don't read them, others will, possibly, if you can't discredit me, and you may start looking almost shifty to them. It's up to you.

Here's a nifty remark from a man who lived in Cuba a long time before coming to the U.S. As he is black, he probably should have a bit of authority on the subject of being black in Cuba. He writes concerning a pompous and bogus article written and published in the Miami Herald:

Caribbean workers were `semi-slaves' in Cuba, Miami Herald 25 August 1998

Re Attorney Don James's Aug. 7 Viewpoints Page column, "Civilized relations with Castro do not mean acquiescence": I was tempted to put it in the trash. But then I thought about my moral responsibility to the truth as the grandson of one of thousands of victims lured to Cuba -- "The Promised Land" -- at the turn of the century as cheap, semi-slave hands to support the rapidly expanding sugar industry.

Migrants from the English-speaking Caribbean islands and Haiti were forced to live on the other side of the tracks in huts without running water, sewer, electricity, schools, health services, or jobs. There was massive malnutrition, rampant infectious diseases, chronic infant mortality, and illiteracy. All this when we had a "free press" and periodic "elections" and being black was a crime.

How can any attorney argue in a court of law that in the midst of the brutal, repressive environment that Mr. James describes, Santiago de Cuba -- with less than a million inhabitants and Jamaica's closest neighbor -- has produced in the past 40 years from oppressed ranks more black doctors, dentists, nurses, teachers, researchers, engineers, scientists than Jamaica in its 500-plus years?

Therefore it's incumbent upon us to work together to improve our system of government, develop closer cooperation and support among ourselves, and struggle to improve the plight of our people by reducing underdevelopment without pointing our visionary finger or giving unsolicited advice in a blind pursuit of instant gratification, which demeans us all.
Let's be humble, work harder, share our knowledge for reasons that make us proud, and not become unwittingly part of the problem.

Alberto N. Jones
Executive Director,
Caribbean American Children Foundation

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/albertojones/albertojones.htm#caribbean%20workers

[Judi Lynn]

112. Do you think you can get people to believe Chavez is a goon?

Let's take a stroll down memory lane, with some selected excerpts from this dandy time-line:

1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the oil industry.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1974 Pres. Andres Carlos Perez nationalized the central bank.
(WSJ, 1/05/00, p.A11)

1976-1996 The political establishment has accumulated a growing control over the country’s assets.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1989 Carlos Andres Peres took office and instituted bold reform plans. Increases in fuel costs and government reforms in Venezuela sparked extensive rioting and looting with hundreds of people killed.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1)(WSJ, 5/22/96, p.A-16)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1993 Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was impeached. He was later charged with misusing $17 million security fund for election debts and a lavish inauguration.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)

1996 May 30, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was convicted on corruption charges. He was sentenced to prison for 28-months and fined for misappropriation of $17 million from a secret security spending fund.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)(SFC, 5/28/97, p.A12)

1996 Aug 1, The tax authorities increased the general sales tax to 16.5% from 12.5%. There has been a 108% rate of inflation over the last 12 months. Transparency Int’l., a Berlin base nongovernmental anticorruption organization, rate Venezuela as the most corrupt country in the Western hemisphere.
(WSJ, 8/9/96, p.A11)

1998 Apr, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez (76) and Cecilia Matos, his longtime mistress and personal secretary, were charged with depositing funds in US banks that far exceeded their earnings as public officials.
(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1998 Nov 8, In Venezuela a leftist coalition led by Hugo Chavez, the Patriotic Pole movement, won a majority in parliament. The Democratic Action and Copei parties won most of the 23 governorships. Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez won a senate seat in Tachira. Corruption charges against Perez were later dropped due to senatorial immunity.
(SFC, 11/10/98, p.A10)(SFC, 1/8/99, p.A16)

1999 Oct 21, In Venezuela corruption cases against 2 former presidents, Carlos Andres Perez and Jaime Lusinchi, were reopened.
(SFC, 10/22/99, p.B4)
(snip)

http://timelines.ws/countries/VENEZUELA.HTML

Timeline continues to December, 2003

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, another poster asked you, earlier, how is it that Hugo Chavez allowed the very same vicious, greed-obsessed, violent THUGS who kidnapped him to continue to frisk about, after he was rescued and returned to office?

Would a GOON do that? I don't think so.

How do you compare Hugo Chavez with the true pillar of corruption, dishonesty, disrespect for the poor, and utter stupidity who proceeded him as Venezuela's President, Carlos Andres Perez, who was impeached for corruption?

[Matilda]

114. Chavez has offered asylum to Aristide!

This has just come through on ABC Radio, Sydney on the 4.00 pm
news.

I'm afraid Windandsea won't like this at all.

If I can get an internet link, I'll put it up.

[windansea]

116. one dork offering asylum to another

why would this bother me?

[Matilda]

126. Two lefties plotting together .....

I'm quite sure the Bush Administration will be most unhappy.

[AP]

127. They all want what we've got, but they don't know it yet.

Here we are, seeking out the reds
Trying to keep the communists in order
Just remember when you’re sleeping in your beds
They’re only two days drive from the texas border

How can a country large as ours
Be scared of such a threat
Well if they won’t work for us
They’re against us you can bet
They may be sovereign countries
But you folks at home forget
That they all want what we’ve got
But they don’t know it yet

We’re making the world safe for capitalism

Here we come with our candy and our guns
And our corporate muscle marches in behind us
For freedom’s just another world for nothing left to sell
And if you want narcotics we can get you those as well

We help the multi-nationals
When they cry out protect us
The locals scream and shout a bit
But we don’t let that affect us
We’re here to lend a helping hand
In case they don’t elect us
How dare they buy our products
Yet still they don’t respect us

We’re making the world safe for capitalism

If you thought the army
Was here protecting people like yourself
I’ve some news for you
We’re here to defend wealth
Away with nuns and bishops (Romero!)
The good lord will help those that help themselves
I’ve some news for you
We’re here to defend wealth

We’re making the world safe for capitalism

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

139. Because you seem to be obsessed with at least one of the "dorks".

[RaulGroom]

143. This article is a little misleading

The ruling, while it technically came out of the Venezuela Supreme Court, is not equivalent to a U.S. Supreme Court ruling, which is unreviewable. In fact, there are potentially two more rounds of review.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2004/03/17/push_for_presidential_recall_moves_to_venezuelas_high_court/

[windansea]

145. more info

The money quote
From the Sala Constitucional's own jurisprudence on the relative weight of the chambers on the Supreme Tribunal, from decision 656 of the Constitutional Chamber, signed Jose Manuel Delgado Ocando (i.e. a pro-Chavez judge.) Ruling on an appeal by the opposition back then to have the Constitutional Court revive the original signature drive back in February 2003:
This chamber, on the basis of what has been argued, and given that the present motion solicits it take on two cases currently before the Electroral Chamber of this same tribunal, and given that both chambers have the same rank, being respectively, the summit of the constitutional and electoral jurisdictions, declares that the present request to accept the cases is legally non-available, and as such we declare it.

Original: Esta Sala, con base en los antes señalado, dado que en la presente solicitud se le solicita avocarse al conocimiento de dos causas que cursan ante la Sala Electoral de este mismo Tribunal Supremo de Justicia, y dado que dichas Salas cuentan con igual rango, siendo ambas, en su orden, las cúspides de la jurisdicción constitucional y electoral, declara que la presente solicitud de avocamiento es inaccedible en derecho, y así se declara

scroll down and read much more on the ruling and history

http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/