Venezuela oil 'may double Saudi Arabia'

[many a good man]

Source: BBC

A new US assessment of Venezuela's oil reserves could give the country double the supplies of Saudi Arabia.

Scientists working for the US Geological Survey say Venezuela's Orinoco belt region holds twice as much petroleum as previously thought.

The geologists estimate the area could yield more than 500bn barrels of crude oil.

This assessment is far more optimistic than even the best case scenario put forward by President Hugo Chavez.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8476395.stm

---

Anybody want to start a pool on how soon US troops land in Venezuela?

[n2doc]

1. Only after we depose Hugo and install a puppet who needs "protecting"

Which gets more likely every day.

[Joe Chi Minh]

9. Such a move could be costly. Ugo has prudently armed the country against

such an eventuality (only defence experts, presumably, would know how well or how deficiently), as well as forging links with super-powers. Then there are the other countries in Latin America. Also, much of the mischief-making capacity of the US military-industrial complex seems to be at the more reachable end of the country, i.e. the South. Apart from the Civil War, the US has never known bombs and artillery dropped in anger by uppity furriners.

I have to say, though, that it's the view of a very non-expert reader of the news, which, of course, could be pretty wide of the mark. But the thing is that wars can involve potentially catastrophic imponderables. Not that I imagine that would exercise the military-industrial people, who don't appear to be rational in terms of fundamentals.

[cliffordu]

2. I'm going to moved down there and open a bar that caters to GI's

Get ahead of the curve.......

[thereismore]

3. Oh goody, let's burn! nt

[Arctic Dave]

4. Gosh, who would had guessed they had oil.

I just thought Hugo slept with someones sister here with the amount of shit talked about him.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Chavez is harboring bin Laden and is developing WMD

That would be the next claim by the same US Administration that instigated the coup in Honduras.

[dixiegrrrrl]

30. Al-Kada. has moved into the country.

al-Kada AND the Taliban...yeah, that's the ticket.
And rebels and insurgents, too.
Chavez is harboring them.
AND he is building nuclear weapons!!!!
A special intelligence report is being found even as I type.

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!!

[Fearless]

6. Well the environment is f*cked...

:banghead:

[jwirr]

7. How sure of this can we be? Wasn't Venezuela called Little Standard

Oil in the past? Are they telling us that they have found oil that LSO did not know about already?

[RedCloud]

65. It was known for many moons. Just waited until the costs would go up to pay to extract.

Not an easy task.

The Orinoco. "There's a skeeter on peeter. Knock it off, knock it off." Also anaconda out the wazoo. Little pesky parasites that enter through the lower orifices and then bite like crazy. Caiman! And plenty of hungry bugs just waiting.

[randr]

8. If only we would move to form a cohesive union

of American Continental interests. The wealth and security of the whole continent would be served if we held a summit and explored our mutual interests. This summit should stress the need for alternative energy and a wise use of the petro fuels we have left.

[OnlinePoker]

27. Just curious

What do you consider a "wise" use of petroleum? Not flaming, just wonder what you believe oil should be used for, or if it should be used at all.

[randr]

44. I don't think petroleum will be replaced in any immediate future

Curbing fuel use through efficiency programs first. Developing alternative energy sources should be paid by a user fee on petrol consumption. As should use of coal for electrical generation.
A real assessment of petrol fuels costs should be disclosed that would expose the military and health care costs that we spend each year to maintain our "standard of living".
An international dialog to develop a path to the future. Questions such as, what kind of world will we be inhabiting in 20 years? or in the next generations?, need to be asked and answered.

[WriteDown]

10. Time to ready another tectonic weapon. nt

[ronnie624]

12. Yep.

U.S. intervention in Latin America is all just a big conspiracy theory by progressives.

[wuushew]

13. This info is from the the USGS

shouldn't your attempt at snark at least pertain to the topic?

[Wilms]

43. What? And break his record of multi-thousand substance-free posts?

Doubt it.

[Hissyspit]

17. There is no evidence Chavez actually said that or believes it.

He may. Show me the evidence. Otherwise, it's just slander.

[TheWraith]

47. I hope you're making a ridiculous joke. nt

[boppers]

11. When did we take over Saudi Arabia?

Oh, wait, we didn't. Then again, they aren't socialists.

[mudplanet]

15. Look, you only take over countries that you have to. Saudi Arabia is

already a feudal Arab fiefdom, so we don't have to take it over.

By the bye, any guess on how many U.S. military personnel are on the ground in Saudi Arabia, and a comparison of that number with the size of the Saudi Army? Marking the end of an era, the United States will soon withdraw about 7,000 U.S. military personnel from Saudi Arabia and terminate a significant military presence there that lasted more than a decade, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld announced Tuesday. http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030430-psab01.htm

And did anyone catch Helen at the White House press conference trying to corner the admin's military reps into stating what the motivation was for Al Qaeda's terriorism? They hemmed and hawed, and engaged in a Palinism.

The stated, published reason for Al Qaeda's terrorist activities is the presence of U.S. military forces in Muslim lands.

[many a good man]

16. US troops in SA from 1990-2003

My comment was about the presence of US military in oil-rich lands; I said nothing about "taking over." That sounds so Bushian. There are better ways to achieve the same objective.

For the record, Saudi Arabia did begin nationalizing its oil in 1972, widely considered by many at the time to be "socialist."

"In 1972 the government of Saudi Arabia demanded tighter rein on its
oil industry as well as participation in the oil concessions of
foreign companies. Aramco (a conglomerate of several American oil
companies) and the government reached an agreement in June, 1974,
whereby the Saudis would take a 60% majority ownership of the
company's concessions and assets. The concept of participation was
developed by the Saudi Arabian government as an alternative to
nationalization."

"By the early 1980s, Saudi Arabia had gained full ownership of Aramco."

"History" infoplease
http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=3&q=http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0860941.html&e=7781

These steps allowed the country to have complete control over its oil
reserves and their rate of development. Since Saudi Arabia has half
of the global unused oil production capacity, the country plays a key
role in determining global oil prices.

...

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=345411

[Strelnikov_]

14. These are tar sands deposits, little net energy yield

But since the primary uses of petroleum is not as an energy source . . .

Extraction of this 'resource' will be an undertaking similar to the Canadian tar sands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orinoco_Belt

The Orinoco Belt consists of large deposits of extra heavy crude (oil sands), known as the Orinoco Oil Sands or the Orinoco Tar Sands. The Orinoco Tar Sands are known to be one of the largest, if not the largest oil sand deposit in the world, along with the Athabasca Tar Sands in Alberta, Canada. Venezuela's non-conventional oil deposits of about 1,200 billion barrels (1.9×1011 m3), found primarily in the Orinoco oil sands, are estimated to approximately equal the world's reserves of conventional oil.<1> Petróleos de Venezuela S.A. has estimated that the producible reserves of the Orinoco Belt are up to 235 billion barrels (3.74×1010 m3)<2> which would make it the largest petroleum reserve in the world, before Saudi Arabia <3>.

In 2009, USGS updated this value to 513 billion barrels (8.16×1010 m3)<4>. It is currently divided into four exploration and production areas. These are: Boyacá (before Machete), Junín (before Zuata), Ayacucho (before Hamaca), and Carabobo (before Cerro Negro). The current exploration area is about 11,593 km².


The light purple area is the Orinico tar sand belt.





http://cohesion.rice.edu/naturalsciences/earthscience/research.cfm?doc_id=2819

[mudplanet]

18. Correct, except that when the price of oil exceeds $200 a barrel (which is

an inevitability) suddenly these resources will become very valuable and exploitable (at what environmental cost?)

Which is why the Canadians and the Venezuelans are making their plans. They aren't really buying in to the "rapture" thingy. They expect the world will continue to spin and the people will continue to need energy.

[Strelnikov_]

23. Fine. Where does the energy come from?

When oil hits $200/bbl, all energy sources will be priced accordingly, and the tar sands will be just as big a waste of resources as they are today.

An EROEI of <3 for a non-renewable resource is not viable in an energy starved world.

The Canadian tar sands are currently using 'cheap natural gas to make expensive oil'. In the energy starved world of the future, will that choice be made?

Will we build nuclear power plants to provide the energy to exploit the tar sands and kerogen resources at an EROEI of 3+/-, only to burn said energy resource produced in internal combustion engines with an efficiency of 10-20%, when the process energy could be used directly in electric 'engines' with efficiencies of 70%?

I say not. At some point, once we hit the critical point of contraction, the laws of thermodynamics will take over, and these resources will no longer be viable.

[mudplanet]

25. Not all energy resources will be priced accordingly, as there

are many things you can do with petroleum that you can't do with solar, wind, and nuclear energy (primarily plastics - my father, and old Amoco employee, told me that the 2 liter plastic pop bottle was the best thing that ever happened to the industry). Although I will concede that your hypothesis has a large degree of potential truth (i.e., you are probably right, with caution)

I agree that electric vehicles are now looking practicable and will have a significant effect of the value of oil. Bolivia is sitting on a gold mine and may be the next Saudi Arabia. But as long as it cost $30K and above to buy an electric vehicle, gas will continue to be a popular option (I drive a '91 Kia which I bought for $500 and gets about 35mpg, which I argue is pretty environmentally friendly with my friends who drive $40K hybrids or diesels that they are powering with used veggie oil that they have to build and operate a lab to process).

[Strelnikov_]

29. I fully agree that the tar sand and kerogen shale resources will be exploited

along with the Bakken oil deposits, deep-sea, etc., just at nowhere near the rate needed to maintain the current petroleum 'fueled' complex industrial society we have today.

As you note, plastics, petrochemicals, and as an energy source for that portion of transportation and industrial economy that cannot be 'electrified' (air transport, military, construction).

As Simmons says, petroleum is too valuable a resource to simply burn.

And at an EROEI of 3, renewable liquid fuels become viable (such as soy biodiesel at an EROEI of 3 +/-). But again, like the unconventional petroleum sources, renewable liquid fuels can never be produced in the quantity to maintain the current paradigm.

My view is that the future is electric, with petroleum/renewable-based liquid fuels filling in the margins of our energy needs.


+++++++++

Gross energy required from a replacement energy source to yield the same net energy is estimated by the following equation.

Q2 = ((1 – 1 / ER1) / (1 – 1 / ER2)) x Q1

ER ~ EROEI
Q ~Gross Energy
Q1, ER1 ~ Current energy source
Q2, ER2 ~ Replacement energy source

Ratio Q2 / Q1 for typical EROEI values

ER1
ER2 10 20
5.0 1.125 1.188
2.5 1.500 1.583
1.5 2.700 2.850

So, if replacing the 38.40 Quads of energy the US obtained from petroleum in 2000 (at an EROEI of 10) with wind (at an EROEI of 2.5), to yield the same net energy, wind would have to generate 57.6 Quads, or 50% more.

However, assuming an ICE efficieny of 20% versus 49% for 'electric engines' (70% wire to wheel, 70% blade to wire incl. off-peak storage), we only need to produce 23.51 Quads of wind energy to replace the 38.40 Quads of petroleum.

+++++++++

[amandabeech]

64. I wouldn't count on that kerogen "oil" shale.

We really don't know how to get that stuff out of the ground into usable shape without using more energy than we get out of it. Shell's latest "cooker" technology didn't work, so it is back to the drawing board out there.

We do know how to do it with the tar sands and the Orinoco belt, but just barely. In Canada of course the environmental damage is huge, and the Canadians are using huge amounts of their natural gas resources to mine and refine the tar.

This piece is either written by someone who really doesn't know the field or is trying to reassure everyone that all is well. The reaction of DUers here shows how much this piece is really worth.

[fascisthunter]

19. now you all can see why so much attention is being given to Chavez on DU

his ideology keeps the greedy for taking what isn't theirs... instead, they have to pay the price as they should, but greedy fuck head fascists will never see it that way due to a warped god-complex.

[ChangoLoa]

20. Is this new to Americans?

It's been a well known fact in Venezuela for years. Some estimations even talk about more deposits. Problem is, only 25% of the deposits can be recovered, according to experts. We've been waiting for less costly technologies and creating joint ventures with many foreign multinationals, but it looks like they are not as enthusiastic as before with 70-75$/bl.

[ronnie624]

28. It isn't new to many DUers.

It was discussed here years ago.

Most U.S. Americans, however, even if they see it on tonight's 'news', will not remember it next week.

[many a good man]

33. What's new is the USGS imprimatur

And the claim that the figures are based on oil recoverable using "existing technologies."

The USGS estimated how much oil could be recovered using existing technologies, and said the area has the largest accumulation it has ever assessed.
...

USGS geologist Chris Schenk said Friday that the new estimate, in contrast, is based not on estimated reserves but on how much oil is technically recoverable "with the technology that we're aware of today."

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/286258

[pattmarty]

21. Get ready for "Jungle Storm" to rid the world of that evil "dictator"...........

.........Chavez who took power from the people of Venezuela in a military coup and has been killing babies in incubators by sending them to Cuba.:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[L0oniX]

22. President Hugo Chavez ...our new best friend.

[4dsc]

24. BS Alert here

The Saudi's no longer have a reserve of 260 billion barrels. They artificially raised their reserve numbers back in the 1980's without finding a drop more and have used 100 billion barrels since then.

So it would be safe to claim the Saudi's only have about 90-100 billion barrels of oil reserves and not all that is recoverable.

[Strelnikov_]

26. Political Reserves

(Thought I would attach an old post of mine to yours for the benefit of those unaware of this issue)

Non-existent oil that is reported by government agencies for political purposes. OPEC oil production quotas are based upon the oil reserve figures provided by each member country. After this quota system was implemented in 1985, a sudden leap in world oil reserves occurred - Kuwait's reserves jumped 41%, Saudi Arabia's shot up 50%, a 100% jump in Iran, Iraq, and Venezuela, and a 200% jump in Abu Dhabi and Dubai . . .

In Bar Graph form . .




And in the ever popular Line Graph form . . .




Additional background . .


http://www.hubbertpeak.com/debate/polrsrvs.htm

As the above source notes, declared reserves for the majors in OPEC are 701 Gb (1990) of which 318 Gb is spurious. In other words, 45% of the oil we are trying to control is not even there.

[FailureToCommunicate]

31. So ... they finally found the last stash: where Republicans went to die...

[lib2DaBone]

32. The CIA tried to kill Chavez 2 times....

How did OUR oil get underneath HIS sand?

[Pavulon]

34. Doubt it, or he would be as dead as Diem

someone we actually killed.

YOu could post a link verifying that with foia documents or some fact based source, but you cant.

[Flaneur]

37. Or as dead as Castro?

Or do you doubt the spooks tried to kill him repeatedly and failed?

[Pavulon]

39. Lots of fact of that on paper,

nothing much on a hugo hit. Maybe we will get him with out earthquake machine.

[Flaneur]

46. Might work better than the exploding cigars.

[ronnie624]

57. The U.S. government does do assassinations, though.

There are declassified CIA manuals on the art. And not long ago, there was a conclusive revelation about 'assassination squads' working in Afghanistan and Iraq. The U.S. also provided moral support, at the very least, to the attempted coup d'etat against President Chavez. Aurie Fleischer stated as much at a press briefing. And the political/corporate elites who establish our foreign policies, do hate Hugo Chavez and what he represents, and they would doubtless love to see him gone. With all of that in mind, it isn't so hard to believe the U.S. government has been involved in an attempt on Chavez's life.

FOX 'News' and something called, Russia Today, seem to be the primary purveyors of that claim about Hugo Chavez and the 'earthquake weapon', and even FOX 'News' doesn't claim Chavez actually said it, only that the claim was "shot out" by ViVe TV in a press release, and that it was later scrubbed from their web site. Can you post a credible report about this supposed claim by President Chavez?

[gristy]

35. criminey. who writes these headlines?

[FedUpWithIt All]

36. How close is Haiti to Venezuela? n/t

[Pavulon]

40. Word?

potential merging of the two stupidest ideas on this forum..

[FedUpWithIt All]

41. Are you certain? n/t

[laylah]

38. My thought EXACTLY! nt

[winyanstaz]

42. No wonder they are after Chevez so badly....

[naaman fletcher]

45. Not with Hugo in charge.. production is down.

That's what happens when moron's try to manage complex businesses.

[COLGATE4]

49. Not only when morons (or political operatives) try to manage

complex businesses, but also when you load the company in charge of production (PDVESA) with political hacks instead of competent people. Chavez has been doing this for years - no small reason for the reduction in production.

[naaman fletcher]

50. yep. /nt

[AngryAmish]

51. PEAK OIL!

[taterguy]

52. No one has ever said that all sources of oil have been discovered

The gist of Peak Oil is that oil is finite because the planet isn't making more of it.

Do you have any scientific basis to dispute that?

Other than the fact that driving is a convenient mode of transportation.

[AngryAmish]

54. PEAK OIL!

[taterguy]

55. Salamander fart!

[Joe Chi Minh]

63. It's worse than that.

Matt Savinar compared the current dependence on oil of the world's industrial economy to the human body's dependence on water.

'The human body is 70% water. The body of a 200 pound man thus holds 140 pounds of water.

'Because water is so crucial to everything the human body does, the man doesn't need to lose all 140 pounds of water weight before collapsing due to dehydration. A loss of as little as 10-15 pounds of water may be enough to kill him.

In a similar sense, an oil based economy such as ours doesn't need to deplete its entire reserve of oil before it begins to collapse. A shortfall between demand and supply as little as 10 to 15 percent is enough to wholly shatter an oil-dependent economy and reduce its citizenry to poverty.' - Matt Savinar

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

If, together with the rising costs of obtaining the oil and the increasingly ugly, global, economic depression, you take the concurrent, resource-depletion leading to wars, it's not a pretty picture, is it?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

67. Pique oyl!

[brentspeak]

53. And now you know why Chavez is demonized as often as he is in the WSJ and other RW media machines

The barbarians at the gate want that oil.

[earth mom]

59. +1 nt

[Turbineguy]

56. Unless this oil

is chemically very different it will be the high viscocity, high sulphur oil Venezuela is known for. Environmental regulatory progress is not on Chaves' side.

[Lasher]

58. Technically recoverable.

I am reminded of chain emails about the Bakken Formation.

[slackmaster]

61. And the Chavez government can't provide enough electrical power for the peoples' needs

What's wrong with this picture?

[IDemo]

62. Considering that the KSA claim of 260B barrels is highly unlikely

It wouldn't surprise me if Venezuela did have double the actual "proven" reserves of Aramco.

[ShortnFiery]

66. DAMN! When are we going to invade Venezuela?

No wonder we're building those 6 bases in Columbia along their border.

I bet enrollment at what was formerly (and endearingly) called The School of the Americas is upping enrollment ... BIG TIME! :evilgrin: