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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:52 AM
Original message
Chavez foes protest Venezuela's domestic woes
Source: AP

CARACAS, Venezuela – Tens of thousands of Venezuelans opposed to President Hugo Chavez took to the streets Saturday, blaming him for rolling blackouts, water rationing, widespread crime and other problems they say are making daily life increasingly difficult.

Chavez backers flooded the capital's avenues with an equally impressive demonstration as the socialist leader confronts mounting criticism and an emboldened opposition ahead of upcoming congressional elections.

Waving Venezuelan flags, protesters accused Chavez of dragging the politically divided South American country into a severe crisis as he accelerates his drive to transform it into a socialist state.

"Chavez is leading the country to ruin," said 79-year-old Olga Damjanovich at the opposition protest. "He's controlled all the country's institutions for more than a decade, so how could it be possible that he's not responsible for the problems weighing down on us?"

Many wore T-shirts that read: "3 Strikes: Blackouts, Water Rationing and Crime. Chavez, You've Struck Out!"

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100123/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_protests



Will he crack down on protesters?
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. I thought this would be about venezuala not having their own earthquake machine.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. First off... I'm sure that there were only tens of hundreds, if THAT many.
Edited on Sun Jan-24-10 02:09 AM by cherokeeprogressive
Surely those who DID attend are part of the monied elite, and are only protesting the redistribution of wealth. Surely they are protesting because their US supported theft of all things Venezuelan is slowly coming to an end.

Don't worry: Soon, probably within days, Hugo will open his mouth, and the truth that lives within him will flow outward and surely overcome any and all dissent that in reality is led and financed by US interests. The truth that lives within Hugo is omnipotent. It actually flows outward from his ears and nostrils (when his mouth is closed) since it's such an overwhelming truth. Most indecent, greedy, and imperialistic people don't hear it, even though the rest of us can. For that reason, he must sometimes speak. When he speaks, the truth in him is evident to even the most convinced of his detractors, who then prostrate themselves in front of him claiming their unworthiness.

The only REAL detractors Hugo has are those who are deaf, and can't hear his words. Hugo's working on a free hearing aid for those people though. All he needs is enough sulfur.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Your message is an excellent demonstration.
Those on the right place no value on information, only on the dissemination of propaganda as a tactic for promoting ideology.

Thank you.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. So a guy on the internet opines that a story is false, and it's an "excellent demonstration"?
Whatever.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. There was no opinion,
only three paragraphs of sarcasm, which is a well established method of disseminating propaganda, without having to invest the effort that comes with addressing information.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. It wasn't just the monied elite.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Cool! You know, I've heard some of them drag their household employees along with them,
to show their side represents a broad spectrum.

You know, that sign has to be true: Fox News DOES keep them all "INFROMED."
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. Olga Damjanovich -- What a wonderful Spanish name.
At 79, I wonder whether she was born in Venezuela - - at the beginning of WWII somewhere around 1930 ---/

I'm not a Chavez fan, but crime, serious gang crimes is pretty much a constant in L.A. We had blackouts here in California back when Enron was squeezing grandmas for energy dollars. And we've got water rationing right now.

Sorry things are so bad in Venezuela. But they are pretty bad here too.

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. You're so right.
Only the native born should have a voice in a real democracy. Esp. if what they say doesn't follow the correct policies.
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BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
46. You're a fucking idiot...
I'm a supporter of Hugo Chavez and of the neo-Bolivarian effort to make Latin Americans masters of their own house, andt to suggest that everybody in Latin America would have a Spanish name shows a profound ignorance of the region's history. Most countries in Latin America have had waves of immigrants from non-Spanish countries and I'd imagine there are still pockets of indigenous people who do not have Hispanicized names throughout the region.

Incidentally, 9 of the 10 major newspapers are opposed to Chavez, and the only reason RCTV was pulled from air waves (but not from cable and satellite) is that the network has hundreds of regulatory violations that span decades and was implicated in a military coup against a democratically elected government. It's nice to see Chavez actually enforce media regulations, protect the integrity of Venezuelan democracy, and stand up to military intimidation.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. Well said.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
61. RCTV was pulled from cable, as well (just recently)
Dunno about satellite.

Their infraction? Not showing the weekly Chavez TV program.

When regulatory violation is refusing to run political speeches, free press is dead.

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
65. The point that JDP was making was that it such a name speaking as
a supporter of the far right, while being that age, just SCREAMS ex-Nazi.

It was MY first thought as well when i saw it. As you said, there have been waves of immigrants into S. America - and one of the really big ones was right after WW2.

Doesn't necessarily mean it is so, but it does make it not unlikely. And besides, 2nd generation immigrants usually adopt first names from the adopted culture. Bernardo O'Higgins is an example - you could scour the Dublin phone book all day and not find anyone named 'Bernardo'. That her first name is Olga clearly indicates N. European background and origin, though of course it does not guarantee it.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-02-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #65
77. Most of the German immigrants who went to S.A. were not Nazi's.
The Nazi's were few and far between. Mostly it was ethnic Germans who were kicked out of Rumania, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and other places. Unless of course you are going to call everyone of German ancestry who was alive at that time a Nazi, as many people do.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Hmmm, sounds like a healthy, vibrant democracy.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. I've seen this movie before
Chile, 1973.

The CIA doesn't like free elections in other countries when people elect the "wrong" guy.
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. If he does, he can follow our example.
Protesters at the G20 Summit in Pittsburgh had rubber bullets, tear gas and LRAD weapons used on them. A person using Twitter to coordinate the movement of protesters to avoid the police was arrested, his computer confiscated, and his apartment ransacked.

Leave to the AP--the good ol' corporate controlled MSM--to report demonstrations but fail to report that there has been more social progress during the last ten years in Venezuela than there has been in the U.S., where the rich got richer, the poor got poorer, and there was zero job growth.

I agree with the other post: The demonstrators are the Venezuelan version of teabaggers--whipped into a stampede by monied interests who don't like Chavez redistributing wealth.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. Presumably they'd prefer
SOA trained death squads. :sarcasm:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
9. Yawn. nt
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
10. Funny how we NEVER see ANY articles from the Associated Pukes or from any
Edited on Sun Jan-24-10 07:10 AM by Peace Patriot
corpo-fascist news source on WHY Chavez has been elected in Venezuela, in several regularly scheduled elections and one USAID-funded recall election, by big majorities, in an election system that is far, far more transparent than our own.

138% increase in high school and higher education enrollment (1999-2008).

90% increase in elementary school enrollment.
(--nearly half a million children age 5-14 in school who would not otherwise have received an education).

Returning adult secondary education (new program-Ribas Mission): half a million graduates.

Infant mortality cut by one third. Post neonatal (toddler) mortality cut in half.

Four million more Venezuelans now have access to potable drinking water (1998-2007).

Five million more Venezuelans now have access to sanitation (1998-2007).

Primary care physicians in the public sector increased more than twelve times (from 1,628 to 19,571 - 1999-2007).

From 1,628 primary health care centers in 1999 to 8,621 primary health care centers in 2007.

Nearly 12% annual economic growth with the most growth in the private section, not including oil (2003-2008).
(Note: From 1978-1998, pre-Chavez, Venezuela’s per capita GDP declined by 21.5 percent.)

2.9 million more jobs than 1999, with an increase in job quality and most of the job growth in the private sector.

The rate of employment has increased from 80% to 90% (1999-2008).

Please get informed:

http://ideas.repec.org/e/pwe148.html

"The Venezuelan Economy in the Chávez Years"
http://ideas.repec.org/p/epo/papers/2008-04.html
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela_update_2008_02.pdf

"The Chávez Administration at 10 Years: The Economy and Social Indicators"
http://ideas.repec.org/p/epo/papers/2009-04.html
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf


And this doesn't even begin to describe the entire picture of Chavez government achievements, which include excellent financial management (low debt, good credit, high cash reserves). This story has not only been black-holed, we see nothing but negative reports on Chavez and the Chavez government in our corpo-fascist press. NOTHING positive. NOTHING!

A ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-EIGHT PERCENT increase in high school and higher education enrollment!

This Associated Pukes' story, trumpeting the USAID-schooled Venezuelan "tea-baggers"'s mantra ("blackouts, water rationing, crime"), is just one more item in a record of such incredibly distorted disinformation that it is difficult to fathom or describe.

The corpo-fascist press has presented the exact opposite of the truth on Venezuela and the Chavez government. They have also created a false, bogeyman of Chavez as some kind of crazy "dictator." I'm sorry, but no kind of crazy "dictator" oversees a 138% increase in high school and higher education enrollment.

That stat just blows my mind. While we in the U.S. suffer all our money going to war and banksters and the super-rich, with severe cutbacks in our schools and universities, and our libraries closing their doors, the Chavez government has invested in the future. They are opening schools--thousands of new schools; we can't fund the ones we have. They are creating jobs; we have lost multi-millions of jobs here. Who has the better government? Who has the better democracy?

That is what the Associated Pukes and brethren do NOT want you to know. And the lie is so big and so pervasive and so insidious that, combined with the huge US military buildup in Latin America--most especially an areas adjacent to Venezuela's main oil reserves and facilties (Colombia, the Carribbean)--it is extremely worrisome.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. On the subject of education
did you know that they even have lessons on the packets/wrappers of essential foods, the prices of which are subsidized for the benefit of the poor, which is one of the factors which Hugo used to help their literacy.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. That's some nice faulty data..
Let's look at one thing that you said: "Nearly 12% annual economic growth"

Let's look at the numbers:

looking at constant 1990 dollars from this source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela

From 1998 through today it is not even close to 12% annual economic growth. What others of your statistics are pure bullshit? If you are so wrong about one that is so easy to verify, how can one trust other less easy to verify numbers?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Let's look at this perplexing material on your Wiki link:
This article does not cite any references or sources.
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2009)


This was at the top of the page:

This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please improve this article if you can. (March 2009)


Hasn't anyone ever explained to you you can't wave Wiki in others' faces, expecting them to defer to its timeless purity?
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Please provide your source data then..
Or can you?

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I respect Peace Patriot's links, thanks. n/t
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. So, you have faith that the numbers are correct, but you have no idea. /nt
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Of course. Thanks for noticing.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. So, you don't believe the numbers are correct, but you have no opposing data?

OK

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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I do have opposing data..
Now as to the marxist activist's papers, there is a lot to wade through, which I am working on.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Pardon.
Wiki articles emblazoned with warnings are not opposing data.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Mark Weisbrot's articles are extensively footnoted. Have fun trying to knock him down.
Mark Weisbrot
http://ideas.repec.org/e/pwe148.html

“The Venezuelan Economy in the Chávez Years” (34 footnotes, 10 charts & tables)
http://ideas.repec.org/p/epo/papers/2008-04.html
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela_update_2008_02.pdf

“The Chávez Administration at 10 Years: The Economy and Social Indicators” (13 footnotes, 16 charts & tables, plus a book appendix)
http://ideas.repec.org/p/epo/papers/2009-04.html
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf
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wayne fontes Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. It's not hard
Edited on Sun Jan-24-10 02:33 PM by wayne fontes
Mark Weisbrot is a neo-marxist apologist for the Chavez regime. The numbers he uses are carefully chosen to burnish the Chavez regime. Look at that education numbers you sited. Venezuela's poplulation has been growing by 500,000 people a year during the Chavez administration. Of course school enrollment has shown growth. The population has grown. Weisbrot choice of a 20 year period of negative GDP wasn't an accident. The peak oil price was 1979 and the collapse of oil revenue lead to the declining GDP (DUH!).

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Inflation_Adj_Oil_Prices_Chart.htm

Chavez has increased social spending both in absolute and percentage terms. No question about it. He has benefited from greatly increased revenues both by renegotiating the terms of Venezuela's contracts with the oil companies (to his credit)and the over all rise in prices. The question is what will his policies mean if there is a substantial drop in oil prices.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Gasp -- The Chavez government INCREASED social spending?
No wonder the people are so upset!

lol
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. You knock him down by first of all calling him names? Not nice. And not convincing.
Edited on Sun Jan-24-10 06:18 PM by Peace Patriot
Who says "the numbers he uses are carefully chosen to burnish the Chavez regime"? You? Why should I believe you?*

You ignore two things about the large increases in school enrollment:

1) That the Chavez government has kept up with population increases. Would a rightwing government have even that? You say, "Of course school enrollment has shown growth." That is not at all a given. One of the reasons for the Chavez government's popularity is its reversal of the prior governments' gross neglect of public services in poor areas where the majority of people live. No access to health care. No sanitation. Shanty-town housing. No schools or deteriorating schools where attendance was low. So, just to keep up with population growth, on educational enrollment, was/is an achievement that would not have occurred with rightwing government, and is obviously one of the reasons for Chavez's popularity especially in the poor areas never before served by government or so poorly served as to constitute gross government malfeasance.

2) But they haven't just kept up with population growth. They have increased the percentage of people in each age group enrolled in school well beyond population growth (1.508%, according to the CIA). For instance, a 138 % increase in high school and higher education enrollment since 1999. Are you saying that Venezuela's population has grown at that rate? That is absurd. And here is a hard number--the number of countable schools constructed--that supports the enrollment figures (from Weisbrot's 2008 report): "...the number of public schools in the country has increased by 3,620 from 17,122 in the 1999/2000 school year to 20,873 in the 2004/2005 school year. By comparison, in the period between the 1994/1995 and 1998/1999 school years, the number of public schools increased by 915. (17)." That's four times the number of schools. Did the population increase times four? They have also enrolled adults in adult secondary education and in literacy programs that did not exist prior to the Chavez government--half a million people in the Ribas Mission alone.

---------------------------

Health and education figures are vetted the UN, by the Millennium Project, and by all sorts of other organizations and government and international entities. If there is something wrong with these figures, we can be sure we would have heard about it. And Mark Weisbrot would never have used them if they were not reliable and would not likely say anything untrue about them or skewer his report. He is subject to peer scrutiny of several kinds--academic, journalistic, the editors/newspapers he writes for, book editors, co-writers, the organizations he consults for and, of course, hostile critics. He has excellent academic and journalistic credentials.

--------------------------

*Mark Weisbrot

Expertise: Economic growth, trade, Social Security, Latin America, international financial institutions, development

Biography

Mark Weisbrot is co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, D.C. He received his Ph.D. in economics from the University of Michigan. He is co-author, with Dean Baker, of Social Security: The Phony Crisis (University of Chicago Press, 2000), and has written numerous research papers on economic policy.

He writes a column on economic and policy issues that is distributed to over 550 newspapers by McClatchy-Tribune Information Services. His opinion pieces have appeared in the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, the Boston Globe, and most major U.S. newspapers. He appears regularly on national and local television and radio programs. He is also president of Just Foreign Policy.


http://www.cepr.net/index.php/mark-weisbrot/
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wayne fontes Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. What's your point?
My comment stated that Chavez increased social spending both in terms of the absolute amount of dollars and percentage of the budget. I'm saying that he's put his budget where his mouth is and there is no criticism of Chavez on that basis.

I don't see any need to back down on my criticism of Weisbrot. Where are his papers subject to peer review? Peer review wouldn't stop the bias of the basis he uses for his arguments in any event. It's designed to detect factual errors and problem in methodologies. Bias in choosing a time frame would pass through unchallenged. Weisbrot can't be separated from the VIO and the majority of his publications are devoted to supporting Chavez or other South American leftists. He is not a neutral source.

Your assumption that a conservative government would not have kept up with the population growth is pure speculation on your part. Remember they would being playing the same fiscal hand that Chavez has today, oil at $70 a barrel not $20 as it was in 1998. Chavez has benefited from increased revenues during his tenure as president. The question is whether he has made the wisest long term choices. On education I think he's made the right choice. His macroeconomic choices are a disaster waiting to happen. Price controls and nationalization will distort the the economy and slow down growth. Venezuela needs to diversify their economy away from oil and his policies impede that process.

When I look at Chavez what he's done doesn't concern me. I fear where he's going.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. I agree with you about Venezuela's need to diversify its economy.
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 10:46 AM by Peace Patriot
Interestingly, the Chavez government's recent devaluation of the bolivar was structured to do that, and they articulated that purpose: it's aimed at reducing expensive imports, and stimulating local production. It's clear that they DO see the need for diversification, and have for a long time. The 2003 to 2008 period saw the most growth, and the most job creation, occurring in the private sector. Half their government revenues are from oil, but the other half are from the business sector and private wealth, with improved (fairer) tax collection. (The Chavez government has ended the prevalence of tax scofflaws, so common in Latin America.) I've studied a number of issues in depth--including their land reform, small business, manufacturing and educational policies, and, in all of them I see intelligent recognition of what the problems are and innovative policies to address them.

"His macroeconomic choices are a disaster waiting to happen. Price controls and nationalization will distort the the economy and slow down growth."

That's rather kneejerky Wall Street Journal, it seems to me. Like them, you are predicting that the Chavez government's highly innovative mix of socialist/capitalist policies will fail. Based on what? It hasn't failed so far. It's been very successful. That's why the Chavez government keeps getting elected, by big margins.

The Bushwhacks and the Clinton "neoliberals" are the ones who produce highly distorted economies and the DEATH of economic growth, here and wherever they touch down on the planet. Their touch is deadly, truly, and it produces insanity in US economists, who routinely predict the opposite of what occurs. Just look at the countries they have messed with--Mexico, Colombia, Jamaica, Honduras, Haiti--vast, intractable poverty for most people. And look at the US, for that matter. Where are we going, if not into the same depression spiral for most people?

Which brings me to Weisbrot. WHERE are we supposed to get objective information about Venezuela? The Wall Street Urinal? The New York Slimes? The Associated Pukes? Rotters? The BBCons? I've gone to best available source: A Ph.D. in economics with wide-ranging creds, who is obviously peer reviewed, and who analyzes the DATA--data that has to pass muster at the Millennium Project, the Heritage Foundation, the UN, the CIA and dozens if not hundreds of other government and international entities--who deals with FACTS not "Chicago School" predictions.

You also kind of insult me in presuming that I can't spot bias. I can. And I understand his "time frames," and the reasons for the time frames he chooses.

Weisbrot provides a corrective to the utter bullshit we are getting from "the usual sources." There is no question that he is a sympathetic leftist analyst, but, damn all, that is what is needed to get some kind of accurate picture of Venezuela. Are you going to rely on the crapola that is spewed from corpo-fascist sources? You have to understand what the Chavez government is trying to do--and you can't understand anything if your first premise is utter hostility--and you have to understand what the political/economic context is (for instance, the US/Exxon Mobil bosses' lockout trying to crash the Venezuelan economy in 2003-2004), and so forth. Weisbrot has that understanding and is also an expert on analyzing data. I mean, what more could you ask for? King Solomon?

I don't know if the Venezuelan economy is going to succeed or fail. Who knows about anything these days? Who knew that the Bushwhacks could pull off a Financial 9/11 in their last months in office, and crash the frigging world economy? Who knew that Obama would agree to give all our wealth to the banksters?

All I know is that the Chavez government has succeeded thus far, has excellent financial numbers, one of the best employment figures in the western hemisphere, successfully pulled out of the one of the worst messes Venezuelan has been in (the coup attempt, the oil bosses strike, etc.), invests in people (education, health care), is innovative and flexible (NOT Soviet-style dogmatic), and seems to have thinking people in charge--not corporate looters and lobbyists. If even half of what Weisbrot says is true, they are a spectacular success. And I have no reason to think his analysis is only half true. Sympathy is quite different from bias. And what we are getting from our corpo-fascist media is not just bias, it is seething anger and hostile intention.

-----------

One other thing. You say that, "Your assumption that a conservative government would not have kept up with the population growth is pure speculation on your part."

That is not true. It is based on the condition of the poor in Venezuela at the end of the rightwing/neoliberal era--the utter misery in which most Venezuelans were living, with no access to health care, no shoes to put on their children's feet to send them to school, poor nutrition, high infant mortality, high illiteracy, little or no public services where the majority of people were living, no adult education or retraining available, no formal sector jobs available, and an utterly malfeasant policy of driving small farmers from the land into urban squalor, and creating a rich, elite, urban minority addicted to Gucci bags and Jaguars, based on the oil wealth that most Venezuelans never saw any benefit from. You think that this same rightwing minority, who used the oil wealth to get their own goodies and abandoned everybody else, would not have continued those nation-wrecking policies? It is not "speculation" that they would have. It is reality that that is what they DID. Do "conservatives" do anything else--ever--anywhere? Not that I have seen.

And on top of everything else, this rich, rightwing minority in Venezuela is mostly rightwing Catholic, opposed to population control. When the Chavez government tried to pass a Constitutional amendment for equal rights for women, these dinosauric Catholics put ads in the newspapers saying that the Chavistas were going to take children from their mothers! They oppose contraception; they oppose a woman's rights over her own body. Population control is of no concern to them, because their economic policies were aimed at enriching themselves and not paying for the education and bootstrapping of the poor! But, hey, they supplied themselves with maids and a big pool of poor, uneducated workers without rights or dignity.

Nice folks. No, they would NOT have educated the poor. They would NOT have provided health care to the poor. They would NOT have wiped out illiteracy. They would NOT have kept up with "population growth." They would NOT have built sufficient schools or community medical clinics or any of the other things the Chavez government committed to doing and is doing. They had their own private schools. They had their own expensive medical care downtown. And they didn't care about anybody else.

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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Something to back your claim on high illiteracy before Chavez?
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 01:19 PM by ChangoLoa
Dinosauric catholic groups opposing population controls in Venezuela and putting ads in newspapers?
I live in Venezuela. Who invented this? Yourself?

Jaguars don't exist in Venezuela.

Do you have any stat showing that this government "wiped out" illiteracy?
I've shown you stats from the UNESCO which demonstrate that the previous trend of illiteracy reduction was just maintained by this government.

You seem to say that pre-Chavez Venezuela had always been ruled by a conservative right-wing elite. Nothing is further from the truth. Venezuela has historically been the most left-leaning country of the continent (Cuba excepted). The conservative party was banned after the Federal War in the 1860's, our history has been shaped by revolutions, our communist party is been active since the end of the 1930's.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Where were you, Changoloa, when the infamous 'Who wins and who loses' ad was all over the press
in Venezuela?


--------------------

U.S. Companies Behind Anti-Reform Propaganda in Venezuela


November 27th 2007, by Michael Fox - Venezuelanalysis.com

"I voted for Chavez for President, but not now. Because they told me that if the reform passes, they're going to take my son, because he will belong to the state," said Gladys Castro last week, a Colombian immigrant who has lived in Venezuela for 16 years, and cleans houses for a living.

Gladys is not the only one to believe the false rumors she's heard. Thousands of Venezuelans, many of them Chavez supporters, have bought the exaggerations and lies about Venezuela's Constitutional Reform that have been circulating across the country for months. Just a few weeks ago, however, the disinformation campaign ratcheted up various notches as opposition groups and anti-reform coalitions placed large ads in major Venezuelan papers.

The most scandalous was an anonymous two-page spread in the country's largest circulation newspaper, Últimas Noticias, which claimed about the Constitutional Reform:

"If you are a Mother, YOU LOSE! Because you will lose your house, your family and your children (children will belong to the state)."


The illegal ad, which was caught and suspended by the Venezuelan National Electoral Council (CNE) after a few days in the press, has received relatively high-profile attention in the Venezuelan press, and even Chavez joked about it last Friday on the nightly pro-Chavez talk show, La Hojilla. What appears to have gone completely ignored, however, is the fact that the ad itself was placed by an organization which has at its core, dozens of subsidiaries of the largest US corporations working in Venezuela.

Disinformation & Propaganda

The scare tactic against Venezuelan mothers isn't the only piece of misinformation in the anonymous advertisement. Under the title, "Who wins and who loses," it goes on to tell readers that under the new reform, they will lose their right to religion; that 9.5 million people will lose their job; that small, large or cooperative businesspeople will lose their "store, home, business, taxi or cooperative"; that urban, rural and mountain militias are going to replace the National Armed Forces; that students will lose their right to decide what they want to study; that campesinos are going to lose out because they won't be owners of their own land; and that the value of the Venezuelan currency, the Bolivar, is going to drop along with the value of Venezuelan homes, cars, farm lands (finca), and educational studies.

Comments in the ad refer to specific reformed articles in the Constitution, as if providing a reference for readers to verify the claim. Of course, briefly examining the article in reference verifies that each claim is either completely false, or a ridiculous exaggeration and manipulation of the reform. Article 112, for instance, which the advertisement says will take Venezuelan children from their families, in actuality discusses economic development and production.

Last week, after a barrage of illegal propaganda on the part of both the pro and anti reform camps, Venezuela's National Electoral Council (CNE) began to crack down, following through with their promise to regulate the propaganda. In an announcement last week, Tibisay Lucena, President of the CNE made specific reference to the "Who wins and who loses" piece, pointing out its illegality because of the falsities and its anonymity. Although published as an anonymous article, Lucena announced that according to the official tax number (RIF) published with the article, the advertisement was actually placed by the Cámara de Industriales del estado Carabobo (The Carabobo State Chamber of Industry).

The Carabobo State Chamber of Industry (CIEC)

The CIEC is a 71 year-old organization, headquartered in the Carabobo state capital of Valencia, which groups together more than 250 businesses in the region. Among those are dozens of subsidiaries which compose literally a who's who list of some of the largest and most powerful US corporations, including (among others): Ford, General Motors, DaimlerChrysler, Bridgestone Firestone, Goodyear, Alcoa, Shell, Pfizer, Dupont, Cargill, Coca-Cola, Kraft, Novartis, Unilever, Heinz, Johnson & Johnson, Citibank, Colgate Palmolive, DHL and Owens Illinois.

Without a doubt, the region carries important weight with heavy US interests. The new US Ambassador to Venezuela, Patrick Duddy, even said so when he visited Carabobo a few weeks ago on his first official trip within Venezuela.

"Valencia is a very important industrial center with a presence of American companies that create thousands of jobs and that also run social programs that benefit both their surrounding communities and their employees," said Ambassador Duddy.

According to an article on the US embassy website, during his stay in Valencia, Duddy met the board of the Venezuelan-American Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the board of Fedecámaras in Carabobo, and with a number of the above mentioned subsidiaries, including GM, Chrysler, and Ford. He also spent time with the CIEC board, and in particular, then CIEC President Ernesto Vogeler, who also happens to be Chief Executive Officer for Protinal/Proagro, a subsidiary for the Ag Processing, Inc. (AGP), an Omaha-based AG coop.

In a normal state of affairs, this would all seem completely normal: The foreign ambassador meeting with his country's major subsidiaries, and the president of the chamber of industry to which they belong. However, we should briefly remember the role that US businesses have played across Latin America, whether we are talking about the United Fruit Company's destabilization attacks against Guatemala's democratically-elected President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán in the 1950s, or Anaconda Copper's support of the overthrow of Chile's Salvador Allende in the 1970s. Alcoa, GM, Citibank and most of the above-mentioned companies know how to throw their weight around, be it by technically legal, or more subversive means.


http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2904

---------

**"Just before these visits Solidarity Center staff attended a series of meetings to bring together leaders of the CTV and FEDECAMARAS (Venezuelan national business confederation). These meetings, six in all, took place around the country and ended in a national meeting on March 5, 2002. At that meeting, the CTV and FEDECAMARAS, supported by the Catholic Church, discussed their concerns and priorities regarding national development and identified common objectives and areas of cooperation. The CTV and FEDECAMARAS were anointed "flagship organizations" in the struggle against President Chavez."

http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Labor/AFL_SolidCtr_NED_SAfrica.html

------------------------------------
------------------------------------


"'Dinosauric catholic groups opposing population controls in Venezuela and putting ads in newspapers'?
I live in Venezuela. Who invented this? Yourself?"
--Changoloa

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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. I see, you have nothing
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 04:18 PM by ChangoLoa
Peace Patriot, you're a wizard and a spinner. Suggesting than an ad from a chamber of industrials saying:

"I voted for Chavez for President, but not now. Because they told me that if the reform passes, they're going to take my son, because he will belong to the state"
"If you are a Mother, YOU LOSE! Because you will lose your house, your family and your children will belong to the state"

Is opposing contraception and equal rights for woman is absolutely ridiculous and absurd. They're not talking about contraception and population control, it's so obvious that I doubt this is a mistake. They're referring to the education law in the reform.

------------

"And on top of everything else, this rich, rightwing minority in Venezuela is mostly rightwing Catholic, opposed to population control (emphasis yours). When the Chavez government tried to pass a Constitutional amendment for equal rights for women, these dinosauric Catholics put ads in the newspapers saying that the Chavistas were going to take children from their mothers! They oppose contraception; they oppose a woman's rights over her own body." --Peace Patriot

------------
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. High illiteracy among the poor (and the indigenous, esp. re Spanish)
Literacy videos reach poor in Venezuela slums, jungles

By Carol J. Williams
Los Angeles Times 6/13/04


ISLA PEDRO CAMEJO, Venezuela — In a thatch-roofed hut, two dozen barefoot adults and children, a few dogs and a monkey named Pepe cluster around the strange equipment that has arrived by canoe.

Behind the hut, which serves as the village schoolhouse, Alejandro Fernandez fires up a gas-powered generator with five or six pulls on the whipcord, then connects an extension cord to the television and VCR. The snowy display that signals no reception awes the indigenous Puinave assembly.

Teacher, handyman and rare link with the modern world, Fernandez pops in a cassette for the community's first Spanish-language instruction, which begins with a slogan from Cuban liberation hero Jose Marti: "To be cultured is to be free."

This remote island in the Orinoco River is one of the last and most isolated enclaves targeted in Venezuela's vaunted campaign against illiteracy, which in less than a year has taught 1.2 million people, from the slums to the jungles, to read and write in the national language.

By the program's end, the 36 families on Pedro Camejo should have mastered at least sixth-grade Spanish, augmenting their native Puinave and Curripaco languages, which have no written form and are little understood beyond the swift, muddy waters that surround their island.

Until the education drive, which costs $16 a month, many indigenous communities were deprived of more than knowledge. Ignorant of Spanish, the tongue of the conquistadors and now Venezuela's only official language, residents in Pedro Camejo could rarely ask for social assistance or health care when they made their way to the nearest city, Puerto Ayacucho, a two-hour drive or three-day walk.

Despite decades of disenfranchisement in a country where neither broadcasts nor ballots have been offered in anything but Spanish, many here in the crude outback of Amazonas state, Venezuela's poorest, have yet to be persuaded that learning to read and write in another language will better their lives.

(SNIP)

...most villagers are eagerly grasping the lifeline to the outside world, even if they rarely can articulate what they expect from a midlife education.

"I want to understand more," says Maria Rodriguez, whose 18-month-old son, Daniel, clings to her calf as she uses a freshly sharpened No. 2 pencil to carefully trace letters in a notebook.

(SNIP)

The program has been both praised and lambasted for the side effects of the quest to eradicate illiteracy, which stood at 9 percent nationwide when the program started but was as high as 60 percent in indigenous areas.

Opponents accuse Chavez of using the program to win favor among rural indigenous peoples, though they make up less than 2 percent of the population and are rarely politically active.

They also lament the leftist revolutionary messages embedded in the lessons from communist Cuba, which provided the televisions, VCRs and videotapes, in which Cuban teachers speak in their idiosyncratic Spanish.

Cuba has sent 12,000 volunteer teachers, doctors and trainers to Venezuela, partly to compensate Caracas for discounted oil sales that help keep Havana's economy afloat. The Cubans train program "facilitators" but don't teach.

(SNIP)

Hernan Garcia, a 44-year-old Piaroa who grows yucca, pineapple and cassava on the community's plantation, says the program has, in a few months, lifted him from illiteracy. "I didn't know how to read and write before. I knew how to plant the seeds and how to harvest the crops. Now I can also prepare the reports and the invoices," says the father of eight. Nearby, his wife, Lucila, hunkers over a workbook at a battered desk in the concrete schoolhouse illuminated by a single bulb.

Of the 60 people in the village, 40 were illiterate a year ago, community leader Miguel Garcia says. Now only three are unable to read or write, all of them elderly men who refuse to spend their evenings in a classroom after toiling all day in the fields, he says."
(MORE)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001954987_literacy13.html

-----------------------------

The Education Gap

Just ten years ago, Venezuela’s illiteracy rate was nearly 9%, or about 2 million people, primarily in rural Indigenous communities and poor inner-city families. Under previous governments, students had been required to pay fees to attend public schools, which in practice excluded the most needy from receiving basic education. The most remote parts of the country had no schools at all, and government spending on public schools declined steadily throughout the 1990s. Although the country enjoyed immense oil wealth, the government – in alliance with the elites – made little effort to eradicate this plague of illiteracy and educational discrimination.

School Boom under the Chávez Administration

To meet the demand for primary education, Venezuelan leaders deployed the military to an ambitious school construction project in 2000. Within four years, more than 3000 new schools had been built. School attendance at all levels had jumped 25% by 2002, representing approximately 1.3 million students who had previously been left out of the system. During a 2001 visit to Venezuela, The Director General of the United Nations Education Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), Koichiro Matsuura, lauded Venezuela’s education initiatives as well as its increase in education spending to 6 percent of GDP—far above the 3.9 percent average in developing countries.

Mission Robinson: Literacy for Everyone

Mission Robinson is named after Simon Rodriguez, a private tutor to Latin American liberator Simon Bolívar who often traveled under the pseudonym Samuel Robinson. The most significant campaign in Venezuela’s battle against illiteracy, Mission Robinson Today, some 100,000 educated volunteers spend evenings teaching basic reading, writing and math skills to adults in small night classes around the country. The key has been to establish night schools in virtually every corner of the nation, making them accessible to adults with families and full-time jobs. Venezuela’s state universities try to instill a renewed sense of community responsibility among their students and alumni, and college students make up the majority of mission volunteers. In its first year, more than 1 million people have graduated from Mission Robinson programs. Literacy graduates then have the opportunity to continue on to earn an elementary school equivalency with two more years of classes.
(MORE)


http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/literacy.htm

--------------------------------

Chavez Wins Easily

With the loyal support of members of Venezuela's impoverished majority, such as Faria, Chavez won Latin America's first referendum to recall an elected leader on Aug. 15 with a 16 percent margin of victory.

In an oil-rich country where 75 percent of the population lives below the poverty line and 65 percent of the households are run by single women, Chavez has built huge popular support with Cuban-style social-welfare missions.

There is the literacy campaign known as "Mission Robinson," through which thousands of poor people are receiving adult education. There is the free health and dental care campaign, with services provided by Cuban doctors known as "Rescuing Smiles." There have been programs that use oil proceeds to subsidize supermarkets and women's centers that attend to cases of domestic violence.

Most of the money for this populist so-called Bolivarian revolution--named after Simon Bolivar who liberated South America from Spain--comes from a $1.7 billion transfer from the state-run oil company Petroleos de Venezuela.
(MORE)

http://www.womensenews.org/story/the-world/040906/poor-women-gave-chavez-his-win-venezuela

-----------------------------

MISSION ROBINSON: IMPROVING LITERACY AND EDUCATION

In addition to poor healthcare, Venezuela has also been historically plagued by illiteracy. To address this problem, Mission Robinson was founded to equip the population with essential literacy skills. On May 23, 2003, pilot programs began in the capital city of Caracas, as well as in the heavily populated states of Vargas, Miranda and Aragua. Overwhelmingly positive results in these initial programs prompted the official inauguration of the mission on July 1st of that year. The mission has targeted Venezuelans over 15 years of age who are unable to read or write, and draws on a Cuban methodology known as Yo Si Puedo or "Yes I Can," which utilizes audiovisual equipment and local volunteers to implement the vigorous program.

The results have been tremendous; 1.5 million citizens have been taught to read and write, increasing the literacy rate in Venezuela to 96%. The United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) has applauded Venezuela’s efforts, calling the country a leader in the region at reaching UN Millennium Development Goals for literacy. Several related missions have also been created to promote education.
(MORE)

http://www.veninfo.org/downloads/Social%20Missions.htm

-------------------------------

See Mark Weisbrot's rebuttal of Francisco Rodgriguez on the literacy issue.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2331648/An-Empty-Research-Agenda-The-Creation-of-Myths-About-Contemporary-Venezuela-

--------------------------------

Venezuela Declares Itself Illiteracy-Free
IPS
October 28, 2005
Humberto Márquez

CARACAS, Oct 28 (IPS) - Venezuela declared itself an "illiteracy-free territory" Friday, announcing that 1.482 million adults have learned to read and write in the past two years, and that less than two percent of the population of 26 million remains illiterate.

"We are no longer poor, we are rich in knowledge," 70-year-old María Eugenia Túa, who signed up in the Mission Robinson literacy programme two years ago, proclaimed in Congress.

Túa spoke in the ceremony in which the government declared this South American oil-producing country free of illiteracy, in a session attended only by the legislators of the ruling coalition, which holds a majority in Congress.

"It is practically impossible to achieve a 100 percent literacy rate, there is always a small percentage of people we simply cannot reach, but we will not lower our guard," said Education Minister Aristóbulo Istúriz, standing next to his Cuban counterpart Luis Gómez.

Cuba provided the "Yo sí puedo" (Yes, I can) teaching method created by Cuban educator Leonela Realy, and sent instructors who trained 129,000 Venezuelan literacy tutors.

With that contingent, the government launched its literacy campaign in July 2003 with the aim of teaching one and a half million adults to read and write, and set up a programme offering incentives to those who had agreed to attend classes, ranging from baskets of staple foods to land and credit, as well as 100,000 grants of 75 dollars a month, half of the official minimum legal wage.

The people who have benefited from the literacy campaign include 70,000 indigenous people in dozens of communities, who are now literate in both Spanish and their own indigenous languages.

Special programmes were also undertaken for the blind and deaf, and for 2,000 prisoners - 10 percent of the country's prison population - while people with poor vision visited the ophthalmologist for free and more than 200,000 contact lenses were prescribed without charge.

In a ceremony with President Hugo Chávez Friday, a blind elderly woman gave a demonstration of how she had learned to read using Braille.

Mission Robinson II went into effect several months later, to enable the newly literate adults to complete primary school, and other plans were implemented later to allow hundreds of thousands of people to complete their secondary school education or enter university, with the help of monthly scholarships or grants.

The programme took its name from the pseudonym used by Simón Rodríguez (1769-1854), aka Samuel Robinson, South American independence hero Simón Bolívar's teacher and mentor.

Because Rodríguez was born on Oct. 28, that was the date chosen to proclaim the end of illiteracy in Venezuela in the ceremony in Congress.

Istúriz said the goal achieved by Venezuela is certified by the Andrés Bello educational agreement among the Andean countries, and by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO).

UNESCO special envoy María Luisa Jáuregui said "we visited the classrooms and centres used in the literacy campaign in Venezuela, and it is only fair to recognise the political will and efforts made to teach one and a half million people to read and write."

UNESCO supports Venezuela's literacy goal, she said, adding that "Venezuela is the first and only country to meet the commitments adopted by the region's governments in 2002 in Havana to drastically reduce illiteracy."
(MORE)

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/3558.html
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #59
73. statistics?
What was the illiteracy rate in 1999 before it increased to 96% in 2008? What's its historical evolution?
From 16% in 1980 to 10% in 1990, 7% in 2001 and 4% in 2008.

The "Just ten years ago, Venezuela’s illiteracy rate was nearly 9%" takes us back to 1995, 4 years before Chavez entered in function.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. Right. It's better to find and judge stats by yourself
than having to trust the word of an author. For school enrollment, I know that the Venezuelan state stats institute (INE) compiles the first-hand data and for social expenditures on health, I trust the World Health Org (WHO).

Some talk about hundreds of % increase, some others rely the news, so I went to check..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x26599

http://www.ine.gov.ve/condiciones/educacion.asp

Preschool registration: public (total)
1998: 613,765 (759,372)
2007: 837,448 (1,047,811)

http://www.ine.gov.ve/condiciones/cuadro_educacion.asp?Tt=227-06&cuadro=Educacion_227_06&xls=22706

1st to 9th year
1998: 3,597,282 (4,367,857)
2007: 4,069,867 (4,984,453)

http://www.ine.gov.ve/condiciones/cuadro_educacion.asp?Tt=227-11&cuadro=Educacion_227_11&xls=22711

Mid, diversified and professional
1998: 251,938 (388,956)
2007: 510,721 (711,305)

http://www.ine.gov.ve/condiciones/cuadro_educacion.asp?Tt=227-19&cuadro=Educacion_227_19&xls=22719

Total
1998: 4,462,985 (5,516,185)
2007: 5,418,036 (6,743,569)

General school enrollment growth (1998-2007): 22.3%

Population growth (1998-2007): 17.4%


Venezuelan real public expenditure on health per capita from 1995 to 2006 (W.H.O):
"real" = inflation adjusted (PPP)

1995: 130 $
1996: 112 $
1997: 197 $
1998: 186 $
1999: 172 $ Beginning of Chavez government
2000: 189 $
2001: 127 $
2002: 118 $
2003: 103 $
2004: 140 $
2005: 147 $
2006: 196 $

Retrieve stats from the World Health Organization at:
http://apps.who.int/whosis/data/Search.jsp

In 3 steps:
1. Regions/countries: Venezuela
2. Indicators: Per capita government expenditure on health
3. Time period: Select all time periods
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
66. What it will mean is that those who were educated while Venezuela
could afford to educate them will REMAIN educated.

When you are flush, you INVEST. It is what responsible people, and responsible nations, do.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
72. oh my god a Neo Marxist??? RED FLAG RED FLAG ALERT ALERT
Do not trust it. Do not trust it.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Wikipedia.
Never a good source for contentious political issues.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Oh, my. Wikipedia, the ultimate source on Venezuela.
lol
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. Can't wait for the next coup?
Don't we have enough rightwing crap here without wishing it on other nations?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. Here's a protester who got hit by a wooden dowel fired by the police.
Edited on Sun Jan-24-10 08:21 AM by Judi Lynn
http://www.subliminalnews.com.nyud.net:8090/assets/OaklandWound_4.7.03.jpg


(Oh, wait! That happened in Oakland, California in 2003. Sorry!)

April 07, 2003

Oakland Police Fire Wooden Bullets at Protesters; At Least 12 Injured, Including Dockworkers
Protesters pelted with wooden bullets at Port of Oakland (4/07/03 - San Jose Mercury News)

Police in Oakland, CA fired wooden dowels, rubber bullets, tear gas "stingers" and concussion grenades at protesters in front of the Port of Oakland on April 7. Protesters as well as longshoremen employed by the Port were injured in the assault, according to victims, witnesses and reporters on the scene. It is believed to be the most violent confrontation between police and protesters to date since the March 19 invasion of Iraq.

Initial reports indicate that about a dozen were injured. Six injured dockworkers were treated by paramedics, but "it is unclear" if protesters were treated. Press reports still coming in at this writing indicate at least one longshoreman has been hospitalized.

About 500 picketing activists gathered at the Port early in the morning to protest shipping companies profiting from DOD contracts to ship war materiel to Iraq. Most of the crowd had been dispersed, but police opened fire on a group of about 150 who refused to leave the gates.

Deputy Police Chief Patrick Haw claimed protesters had attacked first, telling reporters, "Police moved aggressively against crowds because some people threw rocks and big iron bolts at officers."

However, at least one protester had a different version. "I was marching in a circle when the police lowered their guns at us," said Oakland resident Scott Fleming, 29, a criminal defense attorney. "I started to run and kept getting hit in the back."

More:
http://www.subliminalnews.com/archives/000042.php
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Any interpretation of your retort lends credence to the article in question
which I will file away until the next time you opine on a news article about Venezuela.

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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
28. Here's my take on what is going on in Venezuela
I do a lot of chatting on the Internet using instant messaging, and I have made several Internet friends from Columbia. But at the same tile I don't ever see anyone online from Venezuela while at the same time there are many online from Columbia.

I wonder why that is. Does Chavez impose restrictions on the Net, or are most Venezuelans too poor to have computers, or is there some other explanation for this?

To read DU, I would think that Columbia is a fascist state that oppresses it's citizens whereas Venezuela is a socialist democracy. But if that's true, why do so many Colombians have the freedom to use the Internet while apparently according to my anecdotal evidence, Venezuelans do not?

I'm curious about this. Perhaps there is a logical explanation that I haven't thought of.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I have met people from Venezuela on the internet
In real life I have friends from Colombia and they are here because of their country's problems. They do not want to go back and oppose the current leader and his record of cruelty and involvement in genocide.

I would say the opposite of what you are deducing may be true. The US is heavily involved in Colombia. It's possible that those 'Colombians' online are hired to prop up the government there.

It's done here in the US and Colombia's image around the world is not very good. Otoh, they may just be ordinary people who, like Bush supporters here, have no problem with their government engaging in the crimes the leader of that country has been accused of.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Thank you. That might be it.
Like I said, my evidence is only anecdotal and not based upon anything else.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
53. You're welcome.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. So when we U.S. demonstrators protested the Torture, War Profiteering, and Cruel Neglect
of domestic infrastructure by the Bush Gang, did they crack down on the protesters?

Yes, the Bush Gang cracked down on protesters. The GOP made sure to screen participants in his "Town Hall" meetings. The GOP threw protesters out of those meetings. The US governments created "Free Speech Areas" -- to corral the protesters.

Yet even after the Bush Gang allegedly practiced torture as documented in photos and videotape, our valiant free press supported his reelection by making sure to feature every opposition to boring Massachusetts liberal war hero Kerry and every supportive story they could drum up about the Happy Born Again Frat Boy and his Torture VP.

Blackouts, water rationing and increased crime. I wish those were our only problems. Sure beats pretending the last administration didn't stomp on the Geneva Conventions, make billions through war profiteering and stack our supreme court with pro-corporate activist judges.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. Thanks, I had not thought of that.
One reason we hear so bizarrely much about Chavez is so that we will be distracted from what is going on at home. I mean, you have to admit this guy gets a heck of a lot of coverage.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. And always the way-outdated Boogie-man Socialist No No coverage.
When perhaps the more 21st century approach would be to watch with a neutral eye, to what happens when another government tries to make its society more just. What are they doing that is working, and what isn't, and for whom and for how many?

Seems to meet that as we approach the need for creative solutions to sustainable development, we watch others' experiments evolve, with much less interference. Let's just watch and see how they get on. They're trying to do a herculean task-- to redress imbalances in their economies to make things more fair for the majority.

Could we please just leave them alone and watch and learn?

We could if our national life was less thoroughly controlled by massive multinational corporations who prefer we instantly detest any regime that threatens to wrest control from them, for whatever noble objectives they might have. Even their noblest aspirations, if they run counter to the wishes of the private tycoons, will be vilified.

Yes, we have seen some vicious communist dictators in our time, but we've also seen countless privatized kings who have decimated their populations for enormous private profits.

And we ceded control of our country for eight years to vicious war profiteers, so who are we to cast aspersions on the Venezuelans choosing another kind of domineering force?

Ours allegedly violated the Geneva Conventions in our name. And trampled on all restraints our citizens imposed on military and corporate power.

So where do we get off leaping upon the eccentric Hugo Chavez with a knee jerk superiority?

I wonder what the world must think when the people who allowed the Bush Gang to remain in power after Abu Ghraib, and soldiers with the most expensive armies in the history of the world not having adequate armor came to light, when those same people take umbrage at the sometimes outrageous Hugo Chavez. What could they be thinking of us, so quick to condemn, when we allowed the Bush Gang to remain in power for so long?

We let Cheney rule us. VP of Normalizing Torture, for heaven's sake!
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
35. 'Tens of thousands of Americans opposed to Barack Obama
flooded the Capitol on Saturday, waving US flags, accused the US President of dragging the country down the path of Socialism.'

'Obama is leading the country to ruin, said one protestor.'

Many wore t-shirts picturing President Obama as 'The Joker'.

Most criticizend his coziness with Wall St. Bankers and blamed for the country's high unemployment rate.

The protestors call their movement The Teabag Movement. One of their heroes is former VP nominee, Sarah Palin. There were few supporters of Mr. Obama evident at the rally.


Here we call that 'Democracy'. But OMG when it happens in Venezuela it has to be because their President is a 'dictator'!

Funny to see the propaganda against Chavez intensify lately. A country that is now thought to have even more oil than Saudi Arabia. And how can we allow a small country like that be in control of all that oil?

I'm sure there will be lots of these anti-Chavez threads coming up to their elections. And if he survives, who knows, maybe another US-backed coup attempt?
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Anti-Obama and anti-Chavez protesters shouldn't be compared
The "Teabag" movement doesn't include socio-democrats (MAS), socialists (Podemos) and marxists (Bandera Roja)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. But World Can't Wait does and so does Code Pink..
They are still protesting the war and torture and war crimes.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. I don't see why not. In any Democracy there will be protests
If anything, the protests show that Venezuela is a Democracy. And here in the US there are plenty of Democrats who feel betrayed by this administration and as EFerrari pointed out below, there are demonstrations here by Democrats and Independents against policies of this adminstration.

I could link eg, to photos of how protestors at the Democratic Convention were beaten and jailed and reporters like Amy Goodman and her producers were treated. A lot worse than anything I've seen in other democracies like Venezuela. Not to mention the spying on students and other peace advocates by our own government. Maybe we ought to clean up our own backyard before pointing fingers at anyone else.

The real reason for these threads attempting to make the Venezuelan president look bad is very transparent. I think the oil guys need to find another method.

What, btw, do you have to say about Colombia's methods of dealing with dissenters? Genocide is okay if it's from one of our allies? How about Uzbekistan? ANy complaints about THAT president's torture and genocidal tactics against his own people while we support him financially?

Considering the governments this country has supported and is still supporting, I could only wish that Venezuela was one of them as it is a real democracy and people are not stupid. We know the reason for the anti-Chavez propaganda coming from the right in this country. What is disapppointing is to see it on democratic boards like this one.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Right, in any democracy
I'm just pointing out that protesters in Venezuela don't fit the right-wing description. In any democracy, there's an opposition. In non-bipartisan democracies, the opposition tends to be highly heterogeneous. The Venezuelan "opposition" includes two center-right parties (liberal demo-christians), one centrist, two center-left and one leftist. These demonstrations are gatherings of protesters with very different political points of view.

You ask me about Uribe, Karimov and if genocide is okay when it's from one of your govt's allies. What's the idea? I can say that I condemn the political aberrations ruling Colombia, Uzbekistan and the historical or current US foreign policy, but it would be an empty statement in a thread like this one. I think we could have a better dialog if we had a different perspective than the compulsory US foreign policy centered argumentation. We could talk as people, instead of US or Venezuelan citizens with backyards to clean.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. What I'm saying is that I rarely, if ever see threads
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 07:30 PM by sabrina 1
from the same people who slam Venezuela, about Colombia or any of the other dictatorships that we support. I find that to be revealing. What it says is that they not care less about the issues they pretend to care about.

What is the cause of their obsession with this one country which IS a democracy and what business is it of ours how the people there react or don't react to their government? Don't we have enough problems of our own to worry about? The reason is clear. Venezuela is one of the biggest oil-producing countries in the world, and there are those who believe that their oil belongs to us. Just like Iraq.

By supporting these threads you are supporting propaganda aimed at a country that has already suffered from the interference of the US. And if anyone thinks this country is beyond invading yet another oil rich country, either by manufacturing enough dissent to topple a democratic government or any other way they feel will help get the oil profits into the hands of the usual greedy global capitalists, then just look at our history.

It is for the same reason that I never supported the attacks on Iraq, which started this way also, NOT because I liked their government, but because it was clear WHY the propaganda was being pushed and also because it was none of our business. The Iraqi people are responsible for their own government. Now, over one million dead Iraqis later and nearly 6,000 US troops, I can only say I wish Americans had refused to go along with the propaganda.

And if this country once again attempts to topple the government of Venezuela and take away the rights of the people there to deal with their own problems, those who supported these daily attacks will be responsible for whatever results from that. I personally don't want anything to do with any more deadly interference by this government in the affairs of other countries. We need to start minding our own business.
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
43. He might crack down if they were actually THERE.
At the link, they have illustrated this story with a picture of a crowd all right. But read the caption - it's a picture of Chavez SUPPORTERS at a rally commemorating the 52nd anniversary of democracy.

They couldn't get a single photo of these "tens of thousands" of demonstrators? I have no doubt there were a few "personas con unas bolsitas de té" but "tens of thousands" is a blatant lie.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. The media did that in the run up to that omnibus referendum.
They'd say "student protesting Chavez" and show pictures of both protesters AND supporters under the same title. LOL, shamelessness.
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #50
62. They disgust me.
Even more disgusting though, are the "Dems" who blithely lap up this waste and pronounce it food.
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
45. Daily Chavez propaganda thread #2
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #45
64. Chavez propaganda thread
or anti-Chavez propaganda thread?

I can guarantee you, robcon will never be seen posting propaganda on behalf of President Chavez.
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
60. "...as the socialist leader...
...confronts mounting criticism and an emboldened opposition..."

....everyone is being affected by this global capitalist depression, including Venezuelans....our capitalist leaders and the European capitalist leaders are also having dificulties....

....I'm sure our President would tell you, that as a capitalist leader who is confronting mounting criticism and an emboldened opposition, that he too is doing everything possible to improve our countrys' economic condition but that recovery is going to take time....

....I wouldn't be surprised if I saw a T-shirt that read: "3 Strikes: Gitmo's Still Open, Wall Street Casinos Unregulated, No Healthcare Reform. Obama, You've Struck Out!"
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
63. They wouldnt be much of a foe if they didnt protest something, eh?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
67. UPDATE 2-Student killed in Venezuela TV station protests
Source: Reuters

CARACAS, Jan 25 (Reuters) - One student was killed and nine police officers injured on Monday in the Venezuelan city of Merida in violence linked to protests over the suspension of a TV station opposed to President Hugo Chavez.

---

Interior Minister Tareck El Aissami said late on Monday that 15-year-old Josino Jose Carrillo, a pro-Chavez high school student, was killed while participating in a demonstration in the Andean city of Merida.

"Unfortunately several minutes ago a group of students that were protesting peacefully were attacked in a cowardly fashion, and this lamentable incident resulted in the assassination of a 15-year-old youth," said El Aissami in televised comments.

He said nine police officers from the state of Merida were wounded in the student demonstrations, two of them with firearms.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2520473020100126?type=marketsNews
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. The rest of the article implies the students were anti-Chavez.
More than a little confusing.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Trying to get viable news on Latin America is like trying to find a fart in a jacuzzi.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. lol... I have to use that
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. I gather there are both kinds of students, and I think they want you to be confused.
Some of this anti-Chavez stuff is getting to be boilerplate, rote work.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. There were demonstrations
by the state university (ULA) students to protest against the government closing RCTV and counter-demonstrations by other students to support the decision. What I've got until now is that two students died. One 15 year old from the PSUV and one 25 year old from the UNT (opp). The house of a politician was put on fire and part of the ULA social science faculty was badly attacked. The situation has been very tense in Mérida during the last days.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Thanks for the info, it does sound nasty. nt
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
76. Where was Ollie ?
I am sure that protest cost the american tax payers plenty.
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