United States Air Force Academy religious body is installing a stone circle for Wiccans and Druids.

[MilitarismFTL]

Source: Air Force Times

The Air Force Academy will add a worship area for followers of “earth-centered religion” — pagans — with a dedication ceremony scheduled for March 10.

A stone circle located on a hill overlooking the Cadet Chapel and visitor center will join Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist sacred spaces at the academy in Colorado Springs, Colo.

Tech. Sgt. Brandon Longcrier, a pagan who worked with the chapel to create the circle, said he did not encounter resistance to the idea.

“There really haven’t been any obstacles for the new circle,” he said in an Air Force news release. “The chaplain’s office has been 100 -percent supportive.”

Read more: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/01/airforce_pagans_012910w/

---

It strikes me as strange that "earth-centered" religions are okay with bombing the earth.

[rcrush]

1. If this is because someone in the air force saw Avatar...

:rofl:


Edit: The link does not work.

[next left2]

37. Me too! Ahahahaa! Hilarious!

OMG, I can't believe this. Is it true?! I thought I'd accidentally clicked over to The Onion and was reading a parody. hahaa

Well, if they can do this, recognizing gays shouldn't be so hard.

[donco6]

2. Here's a link that still works:

http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123187157

Yours gives me a 404.

I guess it's legit. Wow. I'm truly shocked.

[Posteritatis]

153. Airforcetimes links require the trailing / - the OP's link works when that's added. (nt)

[Bolo Boffin]

3. People whose leader preached "Turn the other cheek" have no problem with bombing other people.

Why not earth-centered religions, too?

[No Elephants]

4. Did anyone count the number of heads that exploded?

[AzNick]

7. As a buddhist I see heads explode all the time

Someone: "So what is your denomination?
- I am a Buddhist
- (laughs) No, seriously...
- I am a Buddhist. I took refuge (x) years ago. I belong to the Sangha.
- (head exploding)"

I realize how little-minded people are sometimes.

[jgraz]

86. Sadly, saying I'm an atheist no longer has that effect

Goddamned Richard Dawkins...

[Maine-ah]

113. it has the same effect up here, lol

:hi:

[Blue_Tires]

87. +1

[WheelWalker]

100. True story.

Blessings.

[roguevalley]

123. I wish there were words to express how happy I am about this!

WOOHOO! BLESSED BE!

[rhiannon55]

158. Blessed Be!

And so mote it be!

[AsahinaKimi]

136. My Parents are Buddhist .. so

I guess I have always been. People who have ask me if I was a Christian are some what surprised when I tell them no, and I have even had a few people try to convert me, "Why don't you come to our church service, and see what its like.."

I politely refuse. I have even met aggressive people who have tried to convince me, my life and soul was in mortal danger if I didn't convert. I simply tell them, I am happy as I am, thank you very much. They walk away most frustrated.

Its hard being a Buddhist in America, and I am glad that at least here in California there are people who believe as I do and there are places for me to go, if I need to.

Some day I want to visit the Shinto Shrine in Washington State. I wish we had one here.

[conservdem]

22. LOL. I would think this must be a big hit over on FR.

[donquijoterocket]

143. especially

Considering that the town which houses the blue zoo is also home to Dobson's operation, a campus so large it has its own zip code. I'd think James and that crew are probably having a conniption especially also in light of the fact that Military Religious Freedom Foundation resulted from the excessive proselytizing by uniformed fundigelicals of the founder's Jewish son cadet and the barrage of hate mail and death threats unleashed upon MRFF founder Michael Weinstein following his weighing in on Trijicon's "jesus" rifle sights. I've always believed and will continue to think that freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.
Frequently the behavior of the so-called religious in this country confirms Gandhi's statement about Christ and Christians.

[EFerrari]

5. This is so rich in irony, it should require a prescription to read.

lol

Welcome to DU, MilitarismFTL. :)

[MilitarismFTL]

31. Thanks!

Long time reader, first time poster... typically everything I find pertinent to this aggregator/blog has already been posted here.

[EFerrari]

33. I know! These people are too damn fast.

Are you a vet? Is that what your user name means?

[MilitarismFTL]

50. Nah

I'm just an unemployed progressive in NYC. Militarism FTL = Militarism For The Lose. I was reading the book Imperial Delusions: American Militarism and Endless War by Carl Boggs when I created this handle. Needless to say, I'm not a huge fan of the military-industrial-complex, though I do take a lot of interest in it. I especially am concerned with the manner in which veterans are treated, and would like to see a GI Bill that allows vets access to all forms of healthcare for their entire lives, and make every level of higher education free for them to mention a few things...

[EFerrari]

131. Gotcha. n/t

[pscot]

48. WooWoo

I guess if you take your bible seriously, Wica becomes a plausible possibility

[AzNick]

6. The Pastafarians need their place of worship too nt

[SpiralHawk]

9. You Pastafarians already have Chef Boyardee's place

So stop whining, and pull yourself up by your own Beefaroni...

[shireen]

35. you want us to worship cans of Chef Boyardee Spaghetti & Meatballs?

May the wrath of Ragu pour upon you! :mad:

[jmowreader]

55. I've BEEN to Chef Boiardi's place!

It is in Milton, PA. The smell of canned spaghetti is strong there.

[Vidar]

137. And desecrate the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[BrklynLiberal]

21. Yes!!!

[shireen]

40. RAMEN! nt

[boppers]

45. Don't the pastafarians have a mess hall?

rAmen!

[Old Time Pagan]

81. Now you've got me scratching my noodle,

I'm gonna' have to take a pasta on this one.

[Arugula Latte]

121. That's just fusilly.

[caraher]

8. This seems like a big development

The Air Force Academy is pretty much ground zero for Christofascism in the military. It must drive them nuts to have something like this there. Is it being done over their objections? Is it cover - "see how tolerant we are?"

[Hawkeye-X]

20. And right smack in the middle of Fundieland - Focus on the Family

HQ is about 5 miles from the AFA.

I'm sure not only the explosion of heads, but people screaming with terror in Colorado Springs.

Hawkeye-X

[AlbertCat]

101. Perhaps...

...they're just trying to get all the Pagans in one place at one time....


Be afraid!

[MetaTrope]

78. Well, they're probaby expecting human sacrifice of Guantanamo detainees

Hum.

[Turbineguy]

10. That's just so

they don't have to put a stop to the fundie-christian stuff.

[jwirr]

64. Exactly, it is one thing to have chaplains of different religions available

but this they will use in a different way. Here is their justification of continuing to insert religion into government policy - especially in the military. They are assuming that the groups worshiping at these other site will be so little that they won't matter. I do not see this as an advance in freedom of religion. I want the military to recognize other religions as the individuals right but I do not want the military to do what they did to my SIL - tell him he HAD to go to a church.

[KamaAina]

66. They are assuming wrongly, then.

There are TONS of pagans in the military, although the highest concentration is in the Army.

Remember what happens when you ASSUME: you make an ASS out of U and ME. :P

[Plucketeer]

11. The USAF I used to belong to was SOOOOO different!

And I'm SOOOOOOOO glad it was. What it is today is an embarrassment as far as I'm concerned.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

138. Please elaborate. -nt

[Plucketeer]

147. What I mean is...

there's a push in this branch of the military, to embrace the christian religions. Sure, they let other faiths play along, but the overall emphasis is on christianity. THAT stinks. It's bad enough, the perception of us being a revived crusading force. Servicemen and women shouldn't be made to feel they're not IN if they don't attend some sorta services on a regular basis. There was NO SUCH emphasis or highlighting when I was in - from 63 to 67.

[cascadiance]

12. What about devil worshippers?...

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5280890,00.jpg

[shadowknows69]

14. Except for the whole "eyes rolled back" thing. That girl is cute.

[Chulanowa]

38. What's with the Rubik's pentagram, though? n/t

[donco6]

60. She has Jesus earrings.

I doubt he appreciates that.

[shadowknows69]

70. I doubt he gives a shit.

[donco6]

74. Well, when you put it that way -

I'd have to say you're correct.

[winyanstaz]

77. Devil worshippers are just "Bent" Christians...

They worship the Christian Anti-God Satan.
I guess they could just use a graveyard or an abandoned church...or maybe just use the Christian Churches around midnight if they didnt make a mess..
heheh...

[rcrush]

91. If they use a graveyard they will just end up fucking up the Megan Fox sacrifice

And then they will turn her into some kind of man-eating demon-whore.

[Xela]

89. Good question

After all the brits protect their right to worship:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3948329.stm

Xela
(a Pastafarian, mind you)

[shadowknows69]

13. Um, as a rule, no, we're not okay with bombing the earth.

But there are soldiers of every faith, you think they all like what they do? Beyond that your ignorant comment deserves no further reply.

[Tailormyst]

19. But you also have to admit:

The druids and pagans of old were not a peace, love and light society. There were druids classes and warrior classes and fighting was not a strange concept. Early Europe was a violent place.

[shadowknows69]

25. Oh, I know. And it's not wise to cross a witch.

I know a couple whose bad side I wouldn't want to be on. B-)

[Chulanowa]

44. Certainly not

But then, warfare was different back then.

The idea of "total annihilation" warfare is a really rather modern re-invention (the Romans used it, then it died out and got revived by the Spanish in the Reconquista and the Americas.)

If you were in an Iceni war band, you were out to stab a few dudes, take their cows and women (in that order, you loves you some cows) and then haul ass before the rest of your enemies could counterattack.

[liberation]

71. Why do some people feel the need to rewrite history in order to romanticise a narrative?

Confusing cultural conquest and assimilation policies with "total annihilation" is rather disingenuous and incorrect, from a historical point of view.

[proteus_lives]

83. "total annihilation" has always been around.

For examples the Mongols used to kill entire cities and the country around them if their demands were not met.

[Posteritatis]

154. And those romanticized "noble savages" were usually locked in endemic warfare

Thirty or forty percent death rates due to war spread across one's lifetime doesn't strike me as pacifist.

[MilitarismFTL]

94. Sorry that I am so ignorant.

I can imagine that the justification required to wrap one's head around the paradox of worshipping the earth while destroying it is nothing out of the ordinary for someone like me, who grew up in a Texas town whose water supply is mostly Round-Up. On the other hand, people who were raised to treat the earth with respect and then manage to find themselves into the branch of the military that drops bombs just strikes me as odd. Maybe another branch that kills humans or something, but we're talking about the branch of the military responsible for napalm and agent orange. But, as you can probably tell from my username, I don't really think highly of military aggression. I find it strange that anyone would be willing to drop bombs on the earth.

[PacerLJ35]

95. Yes, only the Air Force drops bombs...

Napalm, Agent Orange (a common herbicide that was in use at the time) and other ideas weren't born in the Air Force.

[av8rdave]

106. I don't think highly of military aggression either. But during my time at the Academy...

(I'm a graduate of the Air Force Academy) that is not what was taught there. War was taught as a last resort...an extension of the failure of peaceful foreign policy. The majority of the material taught (besides the usual collegiate academics) was what was necessary to be a professional military officer: how to lead, problem solve, earn and cultivate respect, foster integrity, etc. These are desirable qualities in nearly any endeavor...not just military.

The actual "how to" of conducting warfare was normally associated with specialized training specific to specialties/assignments/duties, which came after graduation.

[librechik]

15. now if only they can stop evangelical Christians from proselytizing and hazing in the service--

that would be an accomplishment that actually meant something. This gesture just seems like elaborate sarcasm.

[Demeter]

36. Or Frantic Desperation

or just plain whacko-bizarre. I would strongly doubt the sincerity of anyone using the circle for anything....

Are recruitment quotas so high that they will even take pagans? What about the gay, then?

(sound of crickets)

[Hestia]

61. Oh My Goddess - do you seriously think that no one will use the circle?

I'd be there in a heartbeat if I was in the area. I'm sending this to Pagan groups - we do have Elders and hopefully some of them from all Paths will be invited to consecrate the area. This is huge news for Pagans in the military. The military wife of the fallen soldier had to fight and won the right to have a Pentagram used on military headstones, just they use the Cross and Solomons' Seal and other symbols of respected Paths. Fear not, having a consecrated circle will used greatly by many groups.

[shadowknows69]

69. That is my hope too Hestia. I think it's a huge step for pagan acceptance.

[winyanstaz]

65. As a Pagan I can speak only for myself....

But as a Pagan I have to say that it is not nearly as bizarre to try to connect with God/Goddess under the trees and sky that God/Goddess created as it is to look for a God inside an artificial man-made building.

If the military can pay for places for all the other religions to meet, surely this is no different..and probably a lot cheaper too.

As for the military taking pagans...even pagans love their nation..and so do the gay. Shame on you for attacking people that are trying to serve honorably.

[shadowknows69]

68. Why wouldn't they take pagans? Or the gay? but we know their misguided reasons for that.

[Tailormyst]

75. I know many Pagan military personel

And even a cop or two. @ Fort Hood they worked really hard many years ago to be allowed to hold circle on base. Wicca is recognized in the Chaplins handbook.

[Hekate]

85. And you use the name of Demeter? You surprise me. My Pagan friends have a high proportion of vets...

... and active military personnel among their numbers. They are not pacifist New Agers, and they do love this country.

Hekate

edited for complete sentence and clarity

[Ian David]

16. That's an easy answer. They're not bombing The Earth. They're bombing PEOPLE.

Less people is good for The Earth.

:sarcasm:

[winyanstaz]

80. As a Pagan I want to let you know...

That we are allowed to defend ourselves and to be warriors to protect our people as well.
While killing is abhorred it is also sometimes necessary to protect the ones we love at home.
I do NOT think any of the wars we are engaged in at this time are necessary and I think they are wrong.
You should be glad that there are Pagans in the military. That means there are many there that are a lot less willing to be turned against us Americans here at home.

[roguevalley]

124. there are aethists in the military too who kill people. its all too awful but this is awesome

[onehandle]

17. Where are the separation of church and state DUers?

If they were putting in a Christian facility, DU would burst into flames.

(yes, I know there's already one there)

[Codeine]

30. I'm one of those people.

I think the stone circle thing is ridiculous, and I see no difference between an imaginary Skydaddy and an imaginary Earthmommy; that said, if you're going to have places for Christians and Muslims and Jews to worship then fairness requires a spot for Wiccans to wave their athames around and dance widdershins 'neath the waning moon or whatever.

[fishbulb703]

39. +1

[enlightenment]

51. Agree to all of that . . . nt

[Hestia]

62. Waving athames around? Don't you trust that soldiers could use a ritual blade wisely? Who else but -

[jmowreader]

56. "Putting in" a Christian facility? At the Air Force Academy?

The Air Force Academy IS a Christian facility.

[OnionPatch]

118. Here.

:hi:

I don't agree with this. There should be NO religious symbols affiliated with our armed services.

[PacerLJ35]

120. People in the armed forces should have access to religion

Banning religion from any and all military facilities is basically telling people in the military they are not allowed to practice or observe their religion so long as they wear a uniform. That's wrong, in my book. The Constitution specifically forbids the government from establishing a religion. This means they cannot say "only Christians are recognized here at the Academy". Quite the opposite, as evidenced by the cadet posting below, the Academy tries to allow access to all religions, and if there's not enough presence at the Academy to warrant opening a facility for worship or observation, then the Academy will allow transport to an off-base site.

[OnionPatch]

151. I tend to get a little squeamish

at any type of government sponsorship of religious facilities, especially since the Bush years, but it does make me feel better that there is a place for everyone there and not just for one religion.

[PacerLJ35]

159. The government isn't really "sponsoring" religion, they are just providing access

Just because the government provides facilities for people to worship as they wish, doesn't mean the government is endorsing that religion as any kind of institutionalized religion...

[Posteritatis]

155. Such separation is not being violated here. (nt)

[Tailormyst]

18. Whoa, seriously?

[PassingFair]

23. They will go to ANY length to keep religion in the Air Force. Even "tolerance"..

of other, small membership types.

When I attend state democratic events, I now have
to sit through AT LEAST THREE prayers.

One X-tian, one Jewish, one Muslim, all in the interest
of "freedom of religion". They really think they are
being on the cutting edge with this.

Except, there is no reality-based counselor called upon
to address the group before the politiking begins.

Good lord, no! That would be anti-religious! So I have
to now sit through THREE instead of ONE appeal to the
Big Daddy in the sky to favor our side over theirs....

I hope I don't have to listen to a DRUID on top of everything else.

A moment of silence would be the proper compromise.

[pattmarty]

24. I am not very "religion based". I was brought up Catholic and now.......

...........am agnostic. Sometime try explaining the difference between agnostic and atheist to a 2010 normal US voter. I personally do not have any use for "most" religions, AND believe ALL should be taxed in the US.

[Auggie]

26. Repukes and/or fundies are going to raise hell

[shadowknows69]

73. Good, let them look like dominionist assholes.

[rd_kent]

27. Where will they put the Quiddich field?

[AlphaZero]

28. Haha awesome

Let's see how much uproar this causes with the ultra Christians.

[aquart]

29. We've got druids?

I didn't know they were back.

[onehandle]

47. I've been a Druid.

Eons ago in Dungeons & Dragons and more recently in World of Warcraft.

[winyanstaz]

93. It is interesting how much game playing has helped to open people's minds...

My youngest son and I owned a few shops in one big building for a while before my husband died.

I had a metaphysical gift shop, a computer gaming shop and the coffee shop upstairs.

He had a shop inside my shops that dealt with card games and dungeon and dragon and other tournaments used to be held there all the time.

It was a lot of fun and it gave a lot of kids and young people a safe place to hang out that was off the streets.

We kept a tight shop with no drugs or fighting allowed inside or outside and we never had any trouble. It helped that all three of my sons are big guys. :)

We were just opening a sword and armor and medieval clothing section when my husband became so ill and I had to sell the shops.

I might open another one some day..who knows?

[winyanstaz]

67. We have never left

That being said...I should also note that I have not only studied for many years with the Druids,(I am a High Priestess) but with Wiccans, Dianics, Native American Medicine Teachings, (I am a Medicine Woman) Buddhism, Toltec Sorcery (some)..as well as Hinduism, Taoism and Zen philosophy and Advanced Yoga philosophy (I am a Yoga). Before all that I studied with the Mormons (I was baptized there as a child) and the Baptists.

I am also a registered and ordained Minister with the state of WA. and I can marry you or bury you. :)

I have been a student of Theology since childhood..mostly due to the fact that I have been able to astral project since I was a small child and I wanted explanations for the things I can do.

I specialize in teaching people "Seeing." and can help most people to see the first four layers of the human energy field (aura) for themselves. (It is very handy to be able to see auras and energy fields)

I am still learning new things all the time..no one can claim to know it all or be all-knowing...but it is a fascinating field of study.

I came out of the broom closet back in the early 80's and have never regretted it.

Flame on if you must.

[Tailormyst]

76. It is a pleasure to meet you Lady

[winyanstaz]

90. That is kind of you to say that.

It is not easy to stick one's neck out but until more people admit who they are, there will be trouble with those that wish to keep others down.
We have to live what we believe and be who we are.
It is very nice to meet you too. :)

[AlbertCat]

104. We have to live what we believe and be who we are.

Even if it's a bunch of crap someone else made up.

[winyanstaz]

135. Yes that is true..and that is why it is alright for you to believe what you want too...

and we all know that is exactly what you are doing with this post. You are believing what you want to.

[roguevalley]

126. ditto. I wish you lived near me. I have been truth seeking since I was born.

My last name is Bishop. :)

[Hekate]

109. It's an honor to make your acquaintance -- would love to meet you in person some day

:hi:

Hekate

[AlienGirl]

129. Check your inbox, I think I might know you

[AlienGirl]

125. Got one in the other room right now. He is also a veteran of the US military. Any questions?

My friend for about twenty years now, knew me before I was even a mom. I'm couch-surfing at his place.

Tucker

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

139. They've got droids, so why not druids? -nt

[htuttle]

140. In ancient times...

Hundreds of years before the dawn of history
Lived a strange race of people... the Druids

No one knows who they were or what they were doing
But their legacy remains
Hewn into the living rock... Of Stonehenge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7wcyLrPqC4&feature=fvw

[BlueIdaho]

32. Is this part of the New Earth Army?

Color me stunned!

[Ferret Annica]

34. I used to catch much indirect fire over the 'Wicca' on my dog tags

in the Army. I am pleasently stunned. It's about time.

[enlightenment]

54. When I was in the AF, they wouldn't let me put atheist

on my tags - they told me 'non-denominational' was as good as I'd get . . . I argued until they allowed 'agnostic'.

That was mid-70s.

[bertman]

41. This is so they can keep tabs on who the "non-believers" are, and add them to their

No-Promote lists.

[Ferret Annica]

46. I went from E-1 to E-5 in 2 years and 3 months in the late 1970s being openly Wicca

Of course I did get damned with faint praise and thus was not selected for Army helicopter flight school, so things aren't all bad but they are not all good for Wicca people in the military, which is how things can be in the military.

[bertman]

88. The Air Force Academy is churning out officers. With all due respect to you and all other

enlisted men and women, the military has always been more "demanding" of the the officer corps in terms of loyalty and adherence to the "right" principles.

I witnessed that as a young lieutenant back in the 60's--a time when there was far less open discussion of or practice of religion in the military. Maybe times have changed, but from what I have read and heard, the pressure to conform is greater now in the all-volunteer military.

[PacerLJ35]

92. I am an officer in the Air Force

For the most part, most of the people I work with don't care what religion I am, or even if I'm religious at all. There are a few, however, that give the rest a bad name. I particularly remember one guy who was a Lt Col (and I was a Captain), and during my first divorce he gave me this long religious speech about how I wasn't being a good Christian husband, etc. After he finished, I said "with all due respect, you didn't have to be married to her" and walked out. That same guy got fired as a squadron commander for an EEO complaint, so what goes around comes around.

[bertman]

96. Thank you for that info, PacerLJ35. What would have bothered me about that Colonel's

religious proclivities is whether he would have fairly evaluated my performance, or skewed it based on his disapproval of my personal actions or my failure to adhere to HIS religious beliefs.

There is a lot of evidence that the military is infused with super-religious types who are working at cross purposes to a fighting force that is supposed to be secular in nature. Perhaps you have heard of a group called Christian Embassy, which is a Christian organization that has lots of high-ranking military officers as members. These individuals view their primary role in life as promoting Christianity and spreading Jesus' message to the world. They are open in their support of such extremists as General William Boykin who views the U.S. military as the "army of God".

Here's a link to an article that makes my skin crawl. If this is what has become of our military, I fear for this country.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488


I'll be the first to say that I do not begrudge anyone his or her right to their own religious beliefs, but this nation has drifted closer and closer to defining itself as a Christian nation, not just in words but in actions. As a non-believer and an American who strongly believes in the separation of church and state, this is cause for alarm.

Sad to say, most Americans have no awareness of the history of Europe and the church/states that ruled and fought each other for centuries. And strangely enough, most of the Christians I know have no understanding of the religious persecution that was happening in the United States during its infancy OR the influence that persecution had on the founding fathers who sought to keep religion and government separate.

[PacerLJ35]

98. The super-religious certainly get a lot of attention

But I think they are a long way away from taking over the military. I'm personally Episcopalian, and I have many friends who are very religious, even more so than I, but they keep that to themselves. MOST of us understand that the workplace isn't for religious sermonizing. Most don't want to alienate the others who don't share their views. But as with any group there are always a few that see themselves in a different light and feel it's up to them to set us straight. I've only met a few I would consider their religion interferes with their ability to be an officer, but they do exist.

In that same unit we had a small group that would meet for a prayer breakfast every week. It was lead by our then commander and the director of ops (#2)...the dir. of ops was the same guy who gave me the speech about marriage. The commander was very into the prayer breakfast, but he never cornered me and lectured me about religion...although many of us did feel that those lower-ranking officers (Lieutenants, captains, etc) that participated in the breakfast tended to be viewed in a better light by the leadership than those who did not. One LT who we all felt was the commander's assboy even attended church with the commander.

In any case, every year the Air Force would conduct a climate survey and that leadership team always got really poor marks, and it completely infuriated those two. Luckily they eventually rotated out of the positions and moved on, and the commander we got later was truly a real ops-oriented guy and although I know he went to church with his family, he could care less if we did or not...all he cared about was whether we could fly the airplane safely and get the job done. We just felt glad that Team Church moved on and we returned to being a military organization that focused on flying, not what church you went to, how shiny your boots were, if you wore your scarf every day with your flight suit, and how far could you shove your nose up the commander and DO's ass.

[bertman]

107. That's a good report. I'm glad to hear that the climate survey has some value.

Did you check out the link? I'd love to hear your comments on that.

Also, several recent posts have shown GI's and Marines wearing the insignia of the Christian militia while on ops in Iraq. I have no idea how prevalent this is, but it's very disturbing that these types of things are happening. I realize that they are very likely a small minority, but when we read about the chaplains passing out bibles to villagers in Afghanistan where this is seen as a taboo cultural move, I wonder if the leadership is really tuned in to what's going on.

[PacerLJ35]

114. It does have some value

But one of the purposes of the survey is to provide feedback to the unit leadership...ie, if they get bad feedback then they should take a closer look at themselves. Unfortunately, for leadership that's got a holier-than-thou attitude, this usually translates into "the unit is rebelling against me...I've been a good commander, but they just don't get it". You know, the typical personality type where it's anyone and everyone else's fault but their own.

If chaplains are passing out religious material to the local population, or if lieutenants are leading attacks chanting religious slogans, that would be a direct violation of General Order 1, which strictly prohibits those activities. If these things aren't being enforced it's a failure of the local leadership...and I've seen it first hand where local leadership is more worried about what color socks people wear with their uniforms than they are worried about big-picture issues like this.

If you are on Facebook, I'd visit the page "I hate reflective belts". It was formed by a bunch of Air Force officers (mostly junior officers) that are tired of the micro-managing leadership that's super-obsessed with minor issues like wearing reflective belts and minor uniform infractions, and missing the big picture completely.

[grahamhgreen]

42. That is the best news I've heard this year!

[shireen]

43. excellent news!!! nt

[Dogmudgeon]

49. There's no religion like No Religion

(And that's plenty!)

--d!

[Bette Noir]

52. I'm not at all surprised.

No names, but I knew one of the founders of the Neo-Pagan movement. He was a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force.

[AnnieBW]

53. Wow!

I'm flabbergasted! Blessings to the Air Force!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

57. I have a better idea,

Remove ALL religious garbage from the site,

[barbtries]

82. that's the one that works for me

the military is of the state, we are supposed to be enjoying the separation of church and state, exactly. nothing.

[ProgressiveChristian]

133. Wow

So, I see you are as tolerant as the fundementalists.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

142. I am a secular fundamentalist

and have never claimed to be tolerant of any religion

[madrchsod]

58. earth centered "religions" were around longer than the one god religions

[Fire Walk With Me]

59. I hope that they didn't write down the specifications on a napkin.

A dwarf will crush it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpaG-L0zTJ4

[Hestia]

63. To answer the original question - not every Pagan lives in a rainbow bright world

(though I do wish we could), we come in all flavors just like the rest of the world. Look up Asatru for more information.

[PatrynXX]

72. now thats how I wish our government would work

Allow all religions instead of siding with the Atheistic religion. (yes I know they hate being called a religion, but they believe there is no god. Believing is a faith. Basically They have faith there is no god. (don't consider agnostic a religion. indeed I wish the Government would run from an Agnostic point of view. )
Cenk is Agnostic isn't he. They are a bit more easy to chat with because they don't know.

Not that I don't have atheistic friends. But there is a rage there when the god subject comes up.

I'm Christian, but dislike the harshness they have against other religions so have a few Druidic necklaces around the room. :) Most of them were gotten at the Minnesota Renaissance Faire years ago. Love that place :)

[MilitarismFTL]

79. I tend to think of it more

as a disbelief in deities, rather than a belief in no deities.

[PatrynXX]

110. bad experiences with

some atheists have me at odds with them because some of them get nasty and want to ban all religions.

only way I'd use that word is I'm in disbelief that Obama wouldn't charge Bush or Cheney with War Crimes. :(

I'm not saint. normal Christians make mistakes. Right wing Christians supposedly don't right? :P

I'm not currently going to church. Whoops. Talk to Sydney Moon on twitter now and then.. and she's a great fan of Cenk /TYT (how'd she get to have an interview. lucky!!!)

Should get a batch of us an encourage her over here.

There's a rather nice atheist I know that had a brain tumor and it messed up her life for awhile being part of the camera crew in hollywood. I don't know her fairly well, but we've emailed and Im'd. She blames God for it so she doesn't believe in him. Most of those are tests. Rich Mullins was taken from us yet I listen to his music (Awesome God) I figure God loved him so much he went to heaven. Another friend could be an atheist (close friend more like) online. Known her since Feb 1997. She lists her religion on facebook as pagan, probably for sarcasm than truely pagan, but hey love today's Druids. yesterdays druids? uh... watch The Color of Magic and have a laugh about it. (or the original Europe title The Colour of Magic) Never really read a Terry Pratchett Novel, but having seen that (even if Twoflower is supposed to be asian and I'm sure Sean Astin isn't) I might. sfbc.com sure lets me have enough books though so I have a few of his 30 odd books from discworld.


For a good laugh though... I told a young girl who was telling her mother there's no such things as dragons. Oh she really must see Miracle on 34th Street. Yes I do believe in dragons, unicorns and of course magic. :)

So hence I'm not Saint. But I can have a smile at imagination. Not to say the Bible is fiction. Prefer KJV the most. NIV is silly. Mom likes RSV and KJV. And I still prefer to call BC Before Christ. AD was never said right. Many assumed after death. Which can't be right if it's 0 AD. 30 AD woulda been his last birthday I think and I'm no pro. Like thinking your president and knowing the history of the middle east and jumping right in the middle of it. (oh wait. think someone already did that whoops)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

145. AD is Anno Domini. Year of our Lord.

The preferred version of BC, is BCE before the Common Era.

[nolabear]

84. My RW Air Force Sgt. father is spinning like a top in his grave!

But I'm grinning ear to ear. While an atheist myself, I can't help but simultaneously laugh about the "inclusiveness" in this act and cry over the fact that they say they'll take years to give gays equal rights.

What a world, what a world...

[Fearless]

97. Taxpayer money to support any religion... sigh...

Just saying.

[New Dawn]

99. K&R - it is shockingly rare when the US military actually does something right.

If other religions get special places for worship, then so should pagans.

[AlbertCat]

102. How much is this costing tax payers?

[Hekate]

122. Nothing. Read the article: the stones were being moved anyway. nt

[Ignis]

156. RTFA? Surely you jest!

;)

[roguevalley]

127. the cost of placing stones.pagan sacred spaces are below maintenance.:)

[JoeyT]

103. And the vandalism begins in

3....2.......1......

My guess is that they'll either have to keep guards posted to prevent constant vandalism, or they'll find out who goes to it and they'll catch hell for the rest of their stay. As usual, I hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it either way.

[b_m_p]

105. i think a lot of people are missing the mark with their analysis

i'm a student at the Air Force Academy, an agnostic, and I've been in the Air Force 8 years, so there's my context

first, the Academy isn't some fundamentalist Christian stronghold, despite its geography or what you may have read in the news. We have some overzealous people of faith, but in my 4 years here, i've never once felt uncomfortable or had my beliefs called into question.

second, this idea of separation of church and state is way off. the Chaplains setting up worship facilities is far from an unconstitutional breach of the barrier between church and state. Like it or not, people of many faiths serve in the military, and I hardly think some nebulous rhetoric about conflating the two institutions is reason to deny those men & women the right to worship. i'd personally rather not tell the young soldier whose friend was killed by an IED in a war he didn't want to fight that he doesn't deserve to worship because the state and religion shouldn't have anything to do with each other.

third, the dissonance between earth-worshipers in the Air Force is about as strong as that of someone vehemently against militarism that still pays his taxes to a government that, as i'm sure he believes, perpetuates militarism like no other. not all roles in the Air Force are related to dropping bombs, and i would venture to guess that the practitioners of that religion have given that little tidbit a great deal of thought, just as Christians who take up rifles for their country have.

finally, the Air Force Academy is not a microcosm of the entire U.S. military. the mission is radically different, the demographic is different and, worst of all, the scrutiny from the media is much greater. this policy was decided at the local level among the Chaplains, and probably approved at a federal level. the Chaplains here are amazing for accommodating the student body's religious needs. any service that isn't offered on base, and the chaplains will fund transportation weekly to a local service. no, this isn't so we can fool the world into thinking we're tolerant (and i would argue that sort of cynicism is pretty unproductive). it's because, thank goodness, some in the military are able to transcend petty and trite politics and actually do what's best for those serving beneath them.

[av8rdave]

108. Well put! Thanks for posting

An '80 grad.

Go Falcons!

[PacerLJ35]

115. Good luck at the USAFA

2000 OTS grad

[Hekate]

128. Welcome to DU! Thanks for the input, b_m_p. It's nice to get some new info...

The guy who sued the Academy over his son being called a "Christ killer" multiple times is the friend of a friend. I have not met him, but I read about this case here when it first broke. During the Bush administration it was pretty well established that the fundies had taken over and were proselytizing those who weren't. Team Jesus... Christian Army... US is a Christian nation... Why weren't you at Bible study?...

It was demonstrably rough going for Jewish guys like Mikey Weinstein's son, whose family had a long and proud history of military service to the US. If the Buddhists and Pagans didn't have to be called Christ killers, they still were made to feel exceedingly unwelcome in their desire to serve their country. Mr. Weinstein was right to sue.

I have no problem with military personnel believing in any god, gods, or no god. I have no problem with chaplains, any more than I have a problem with medical doctors or psychologists working within the military community -- all, in their own way, are called to be healers. The church/state breach happens when people start with the heavy-handed conversion process; the my god is the only god and all the rest of you are going to fry for eternity stuff; and it is compounded when this comes from up the chain of command.

I am more glad than I can say that the atmosphere has changed and that the Academy is righting itself. I really appreciate the update.

If you google "Mikey Weinstein USAF Academy" you'll get links going back to before you arrived, but here's the wiki entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Weinstein

Hekate

[Ignis]

111. About time.

Fair is fair.

[Mari333]

112. cool!!

[kestrel91316]

116. The USAF is about more than bombing the earth. My dad was career USAF and

never once dropped a bomb. He DID take lots of photos and fling lots of chaff, ant earned the Distinguished Flying Cross for evading a MIG that was shooting at him.

[PacerLJ35]

119. Exactly...the USAF does far more good than they do bombing

People on this site only focus on the bombing aspect. Hell, even the good things we try to do, like Haiti, receive no reprieve from the "US is always bad" crowd.

[BennyD]

141. I agree. n/t

[kestrel91316]

117. The fundies are losing their grip on the Academy, it seems. Of course,

I fully expect vandalism of the site to be an ongoing problem.

[donheld]

130. I'm very surprised, this is a step in the right direction

one I never thought they'd take.

[valerief]

132. I guess only atheists don't want to blow people up. nt

[slay]

134. Nah doesn't interest me either

funny how us non-religious people are often the most peaceful.. :hippie:

[Green_Lantern]

144. This is great....

A big victory for religious tolerance and freedom that this didn't get more resistance in the military. Also these stone temples look amazing too.

I'm glad different religious views are welcome in the military and hopefully this will be a learning experience.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

146. My opinion of the local pagans has dropped greatly.

I sent one of them an email and signed off with "Namaste" which means "I recognize the divine force within you", and I had told them I was an atheist secular humanist. I also study Buddhism but have not formally taken refuge in the three jewels.


They got really pissy with me, removed me from their meetup groups, etc.

I figure it's no great loss if they are so freaked out about an atheist saying "namaste". I don't want to associate with people who go off and explode like that.

I guess they wanted me to call them "Stupid, meaningless, transient meatsacks"?????

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[winyanstaz]

148. I am sorry that someone claiming to be a pagan was rude to you.

You can say "namaste" anytime as can anyone. It is not a requirement for you to believe to use the greeting.
That greeting is found in a number of paths and does not belong only to certain pagans.
It is used by the Yogas, the Hindu as well as the Lakota.
It is a traditional greeting as well as a goodby..said upon entering or leaving a lodge or circle in some traditions or as just a greeting...much like aloha. :)
Unfortunatly there are good and bad people in every religion, path, race and sex.
I hope you do not judge us all the same as one that was rude to you.

Namaste mitakuye oyasin....

[Manifestor_of_Light]

150. This was two guys representing two meetup groups.

One of them said he couldn't keep the group going (not pagan, a drum circle--same bunch of people), admitted he didn't have a job, and couldn't cough up the small amount that meetup requires you to pay. As you may know, Meetup.com has a countdown to deletion of a group if nobody takes over as leader.

So I stepped up and took over, and he and his buddy at the pagan group got FURIOUS with me. Because of the uproar I asked Meetup to delete the group completely. The pagan group leader deleted me from the pagan group immediately.

Several other people in these groups got mad and sent me nasty emails insisting I was insulting them. They were just copies of the first two guys' taking offense at namaste. I guess they have no original thoughts, just do whatever the rest of the group does.


I did not react. My husband sent them an email requesting that they apologize to me. They did nothing of the sort. I just sent them an email reminding them of the rule of karma or the rule of three, and that according to THEIR beliefs, not mine, their hatred would come back upon them times three.

Apparently a lot of pagans have a big problem with someone who says they are an atheist/secular humanist/Unitarian-Universalist. I do not deny all spirituality. My friends at Heathen Hangout said "They're nuts; blow it off". Which I did.

So now out here in the middle of rural East Texas I do not know if there are any sane pagans at all.

:shrug:

[Posteritatis]

152. Meh, neopagans have at least as many fundies per capita as other beliefs. (nt)

[LanternWaste]

149. it may serve the Air Force well to build a shrine promoting...

If its membership is in anyway reflected by posters on this thread, it may serve the Air Force well to build a shrine promoting The Church of the Perpetually Pissed Off At The Benign.

[Quantess]

157. Wow! Interesting.

I'm sure this is an OUTRAGE!!!1 in some circles. :D