Gun attack at Mexico student party leaves 13 dead (mostly students)

[villager]

Source: BBC

Gun attack at Mexico student party leaves 13 dead

The victims' ages reportedly ranged from 15 to 20

Gunmen have killed 13 people at a high school student party in the Mexican city of Ciudad Juarez.

Two adults and 11 teenagers died, while about two dozen others were injured, as the attackers fired indiscriminately on partygoers, according to reports.

It was not immediately clear if anyone at the party was linked to the drug gangs that have made Ciudad Juarez one of the world's most dangerous cities.

At least 15 other people died in the city, on the US border, at the weekend.

Witnesses said the gunmen drove up to the house in several cars late on Saturday or in the early hours of Sunday.


They began shooting at people from outside the property before moving inside, and pursued some of the youngsters trying to escape over a fence.


The men drove up in four SUVs, went into the house and shot at everyone, you could hear the gunfire all around

The bodies of the victims - whose ages reportedly ranged from 15 to 20 - lay scattered around the house.

<snip>

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8490366.stm

[Flaneur]

1. More than 16,000 dead in Mexico's drug wars since December 2006...

...when Calderon sent in the military. The pace of killing is accelerating, too.

Drug prohibition has created a Frankenstein's monster in Mexico.

[madrchsod]

2. the real war on terror is south of our border

when mexico runs out of oil all hell`s going to break loose....

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. +1000. Things will go from bad to worse when the oil stops.

n/t

[DissedByBush]

3. But Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws in the hemisphere

This couldn't have happened!

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

5. If they have US-made automatic weapons, they get them from their OWN Goverment

Seems that the MX federal government has a terrible time keeping track of the weapons it buys directly from US manufacturers. Stuff that can't be obtained by US civilians, IOW

Turns out that many of the fully-automatic weapons they own seem to "fall off the backs of trucks", or otherwise go missing.

And if the gangsters don't care for Yanqui guns, there are plenty of full-boat automatic weapons available from third countries whose only paperwork requirements are "Hard cash, please".

Stop blaming American gun owners for the War on (Some) Drugs, corruption and poverty.

[Flaneur]

12. Nobody was until the gun people hijacked the thread with preemptive snark.

[DissedByBush]

6. People here seem to think there's a connection

There's always an outcry for stricter gun laws whenever something bad happens here.

BTW, how do they get "automatic weapons" to smuggle down south?

[CanonRay]

9. Drug gangs buy them in bulk here

and bring them in by boat to Mexico. Not a hard thing to do on either end. What gun dealer here wouldn't like to sell a couple of hundred semi autos here a month? No questions asked.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. No, they don't

Why would they? They have a ready supply of fully-automatic weapons available from Central and South America, as well as
guns diverted from MX government stocks or other gray-market sources.

Gangsters are a vicious lot, but they're not stupid. They won't pay premium prices for semi-automatic weapons from Gringoland when they can easily get full-automatic weapons for less.

[ronnie624]

22. U.S. gun dealers arming Mexican drug cartels

<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/world/americas/26iht-border.4.20459692.html>

Gun show loophole sees many weapons smuggled into Mexico

<http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/2009/11/12/gun-show-loophole-has-some-weapons-smuggled-into-mexico>

Obama targets Texas gun smugglers to Mexican drug cartels

<http://blogs.chron.com/txpotomac/2009/01/obama_targets_texas_gun_smuggl.html>

[friendly_iconoclast]

23. The ones in the OP weren't gotten from gun shows in the US:

Yes, some semi-autos are smuggled, but the gangsters are using military stuff these days

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=215673

Mexican weapons cache seized.

MEXICO CITY (AP) - A woman was arrested guarding an arsenal that included an anti-aircraft machine gun—the first weapon of its kind seized in Mexico, police said Tuesday.

The arsenal belonged to a group linked to the powerful Beltran Leyva drug cartel, federal police coordinator Gen. Rodolfo Cruz said. It also included ammunition, five rifles, a grenade and part of a grenade launcher.

Mexican drug cartels, battling a fierce crackdown by soldiers and federal police, have increasingly gotten hold of higher-powered weapons, even military-grade arms such as grenades and machine guns. That has left police—particularly state and municipal forces—grossly outgunned, and many officers have quit following attacks.

Cruz said the confiscated .50-caliber, anti-aircraft machine gun can fire 800 rounds per minute and is capable of penetrating armor from more than 5,000 feet (1,500 meters). Police on a routine patrol Monday found the gun fitted atop an SUV at a house in northern Sonora state....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=205774

So where are the drug cartels REALLY getting their weapons?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,7497626,full.story

MEXICO UNDER SIEGE
Drug cartels' new weaponry means war

Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and anti-tank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.
By Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson
5:53 PM PDT, March 13, 2009

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=233558

Uh oh... Police chief and 91 officers detained in Mexico

Anyone still believe that 91% of the illegal guns in mexico come from trafficers that buy them at gun shows?

Former special forces soldiers...they just wouldn't have any knowledge of where to get the automatic weapons, grenade launchers and true military weapons we so often see in the photos accompanying the "gun pipeline to mexico" type propaganda, right? RIGHT?


Why, I'll just BET that those former special forces soldiers just tell everyone they talk to, to get them at a gun show in America.

But seriously, this might just explain why the mexican government allows so few guns out of a much larger pool, to have a trace attempted on them...

[xsquid]

26. You beat me to it

we were reading about this killing and the attack on the police station with automatic weapons and hand grenades. That stuff did not come from here unless it went through their government first as civillians cannot buy full auto weapons here unless they have a special, hard to get license. Very few have them and very close tabs are kept on those that have them. Grenades cannot be bought at all. Watch mexican tv, the weapons they get from the cartels, they are full auto military stuff. As stated it mostly comes from south and central america and "stolen" from the mexican government. I keep hearing parroting of the 91% of confiscared arms being able to be traced back here, but only a very small amount can be traced. By far most cannot be traced and a good portion of those that can be traced to here sent through the mex governent. The military is in charge of arms and the one gun store and corruption is rampant within the military and police.

We were in Juarez in July at the new consulate that's supposedly in a good area. While we were in there a guy was killed in denny's next door, two car loads of guys drove up, walked in and killed him. The people there that I talked to feared the military as much as the narcos, bad situation.

If anyone thinks that even if the us stopped all arms sales it would make a bit of difference they are delusional, the shipments from south of them would just get bigger. They are NOT getting the auto weapons and grenades from us gun shops.

If Mexico thought that stuff was really, in a majority, coming from here they would check at the border for it. Mexico checks nothing at the us border, on the guatamala border they check everything and ironically they are very tough on illegals crossing down there (coming into mexico from guatamala). Treat them VERY badly.

[ronnie624]

30. You seem confused.

The opening article says nothing about automatic weapons, police stations or hand grenades. Nor has it been reported that most of the murders in Mexico have been committed with anti aircraft machine guns, grenade launchers, hand grenades or even automatic rifles. Most of them have doubtless been committed with hand guns and semi-automatic rifles, many of which are coming from the United States.

I have no interest in imposing a universal ban on rifles or hand guns in the U.S., but I feel an irresistible compulsion to correct blatant misinformation when I see it.

[xsquid]

37. You are the confused one

go to mexico for a while and see on their news what weapons are being used/confiscated. A police station down south was just attacked with full auto weapons and hand grenades. You are blathering about something you know nothing about. Most of the arms are coming in from down south by the ocean. We are spanish speaking and have a house in mexico 9wife is from there) and the us, don't believe everything you see in the us media, watch mexican media to see the full auto weapons, grenades, etc. and nobody but you mentioned anti aircraft guns. The police in mecico is outgunned with THEIR automatic weapons. Learn another language, watch something other than msnbc.

Full auto

http://www.vanguardia.com.mx/XStatic/vanguardia/template/content.aspx?se=nacional&su=seguridad&id=334624&te=nota&p=2

Hand grenades, full autos

http://www.elpinerodelacuenca.com.mx/epc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9720:ya-no-hay-capos-sino-puros-matones-jose-reveles-&catid=35:policiaca&Itemid=15

"Armamento decomisado a narcos, superior al de las FARC" This means the narcos have better arms, farc has full auto

http://images.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.ahoramismo.com.mx/noticia.aspx%3Fid%3D4896&usg=__5bpI0w3ZKsN4AG-3pAkn8fF_sZA=&h=300&w=600&sz=23&hl=es&start=12&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=yCmf1ZMF0_sWAM:&tbnh=68&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Darmas%2Bde%2Blos%2Bnarcos%26hl%3Des%26cr%3DcountryMX%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

http://www.elporvenir.com.mx/notas.asp?nota_id=291600

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/617009.html

http://images.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.elsiglodetorreon.com.mx/v3/bin/foto.php%3F326771&usg=__quUCnJV51cOWOOm5UMEkXsteyMw=&h=240&w=320&sz=34&hl=es&start=61&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=_Ecrt87JUwlLMM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Darmas%2Bde%2Blos%2Bnarcos%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Des%26cr%3DcountryMX%26sa%3DN%26start%3D54%26um%3D1

If you bother researching mexican news you will see the narcos have full autos and grenades, not the news you are being pablum fed. There's way too much ignorance in the us of a country as close as mexico.

[ronnie624]

55. Those are some nifty looking links you've posted.

Nicely spaced, with a word or two of 'commentary' sprinkled here and there. They add a certain amount of gravitas to the illusion.

Nicely done.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

67. I knew you couldn't resist descending to the ad hominem attack. Lol. n/t

[martymar64]

43. One exception to your point

If American-made automatic weapons and grenades are sent as part of military aid packages to countries like El Salvador or Honduras or Colombia, they can easily "fall off the truck" with the assistance of corrupt individuals in the logistical chain. So those could technically be traced back to the US with US taxpayers paying for this gift to the drug gangs. However it doesn't subtract from your point in terms of them getting to MX via private channels, like gun shops. The gun shops would likely be the sources for ammo and handguns that get smuggled to the south.

[ronnie624]

29. The opening article said nothing about AA machine guns or grenade launchers.

You must have posted on the wrong thread.

[xsquid]

38. Read the mexican noticias

and you will see mostly full autos and grenades, theres a world beyond msnbc.

[ronnie624]

34. Calderon Says Mexico Violence Stoked by U.S. Weapons

The remarks followed the killing of at least 16 students attending a party in Mexico’s Ciudad Juarez over the weekend by masked gunman. Calderon, who has used the military to crack down on drug gangs since taking office in December 2006, won a promise from President Barack Obama last year to push for the ratification of an arms-trafficking treaty.

Obama said he would press the U.S. Senate to ratify the stalled treaty, which was adopted by the Organization of American States in 1997. More than 90 percent of guns used in violent crimes in Mexico are brought in illegally from the U.S., according to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4253002>

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. And the "90 percent" number was debunked in that very thread!

slackmaster (1000+ posts) Tue Feb-02-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. That "90 percent" figure has been debunked innumerable times on these forums
It is based on a small percentage of "recovered" weapons for which a trace was actually attempted.

...There's no dispute that thousands of handguns, military-style rifles and other firearms are purchased in the U.S. and end up in the hands of Mexican criminals each year. It's relatively easy to buy such guns legally in Texas and other border states and to smuggle them across.

But is it true as President Obama said, that "more than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States?" No, it's not.

The figure represents only the percentage of crime guns that have been submitted by Mexican officials and traced by U.S. officials. We can find no hard data on the total number of guns actually "recovered in Mexico," but U.S. and Mexican officials both say that Mexico recovers more guns that it submits for tracing. Therefore, the percentage of guns "recovered" and traced to U.S. sources necessarily is less than 90 percent.

Furthermore, the 90 percent figure is based on a badly biased sample of all Mexican crime guns. Law enforcement officials say Mexico asks the U.S. to trace only those guns with serial numbers or other markings that indicate they are likely to have come though the U.S....

Source: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/bara...

The real source of Mexican crime weapons would probably be a serious embarrassment to Mexican law enforcement and military people. Calderon and others are misusing information in an ongoing attempt to get the US to ratify a treaty that would be at odds with our constitution. They're trying to deflect blame for Mexico's crime problems away from their own inability to control it.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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ronnie624 (1000+ posts) Tue Feb-02-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Factcheck.org alters 'not true' charge about U.S. guns
<http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/fact... >

Apparently it hasn't been "debunked" even once.

Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
slackmaster (1000+ posts) Tue Feb-02-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. OK, so maybe it's 90% of 36% rather than 90% of 17%, or maybe not
Edited on Tue Feb-02-10 12:02 PM by slackmaster
It's still a far cry from 90% of the total.

Here's a link to an original GAO report - http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09781t.pdf

And another cite you gave is nothing but inaccurate:

Another disturbing issue the authors don't mention is the legal availabilty of parts kits for assault weapons in the US. According to the Impact Guns Online Superstore website, " kits are what's left from real AK-47, or AK-47 rifles that were cut in half to destroy them as weapons. Those parts are legal to import since they are not a gun. They are a great inexpensive source of spare parts for your AK, since many AK-47 parts are interchangeable between models. These kits are also made back into legal rifles in the US with American made receivers and semi automatic trigger parts.

No, you *can't* legally buy kits to build your own AK-47. The ATF regards these as the same as an automatic weapon, and
those haven't been available to civilans (even as parts) since 1986

[xsquid]

42. It has been debunked since it first came out, but there

are a lot of people with their head in the sand.

[ronnie624]

54. Wow. You really showed me.

What a powerful debunking that was. I am absolutely dumbstruck by that PDF link (with no quotes). And those two links to blank pages (whew!); they really drove your 'point' home.

I guess I'll just mosey along with my tail between my legs, before you decide I haven't yet had enough.

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. Granted, the full links didn't come through. Here they are:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4253002

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/barack-obama-gun.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/factcheck-org-corrction-mexico-guns.html

Feel free to explain why a news report of what a Mexican politician is supposed to have said in Tokyo
is more accurate than a publication of the General Accounting Office....

[ronnie624]

66. "The 90 percent figure is not supported by government statistics,

but we cannot prove it is wrong."

[friendly_iconoclast]

79. I'd say the '90 percent' figure is a faith-promoting rumor.

Without any way to independently audit Mexico's claims re weapons seized, I would say this is
Calderon's way of blaming the gringos for problems in his own country.

[ronnie624]

56. What assault weapons ban?

Take this example: A recent issue of Guns & Ammo magazine—a special issue devoted entirely to the AK 47, “The world’s most popular battle rifle”—features an in-depth article on how to build an AK-47, from items easily obtained at gun shows or the Internet.

The article wouldn’t shock gun enthusiasts much. The same information is easily available from many websites, but it does concisely describe what is needed to purchase and build an AK-47 from parts.

Essentially, a person needs three things:

First, they need a “parts kit.” Despite the innocuous-sounding name, these kits are in many cases full semi-automatic imports of foreign assault rifles with one small exception: One part called the “receiver”—the part the trigger would hang from—has been cut in two with a blow torch, making it unusable. Under federal law, this means it’s not a firearm. A receiver is the firearm—the rest is just parts.

<http://www.newtimesslo.com/cover/2922/what-assault-weapons-ban/>


How do I build my rifle and not go broke or go to jail?

If I were building a compliant rifle at this time I would use the following:

1. Coonan Receiver (1 American Part), Stay away from the Century receivers because they require more fitting than the first time builder has the skills to usually do.

2. R1 rifle Kit from Military Gun Supply (MGS). They are at http://www.militarygunsupply.com for $179.00 less shipping. Be advised these rifles are warrior weapons and have been in a war. Also they are painted in strange green and puke yellow colors to act as camo. Don’t expect a 400.00 kit cause you ain’t gonna get it. You will get a functional kit that can be assembles into a rifle.

3. Penguin second furniture (3 American Parts)

4. DSA gas piston (1 American part). The DSA’s are a couple thousands over in diameter and this seems to compensate some for the worn gas systems on the R1’s.

5.Tapco’s Charging Handle (1 American Part)

6. What I would do so I didn’t have to worry about compliant magazines would be to buy an American made Flash hider. I’ve bought DSA stuff and been happy with them. You can also cut the threads off your barrel and have your weapon look like Belgian issue but I don’t like that because you have to recrown the barrel.

<http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/fallegalparts.htm[br />

[X_Digger]

61. "semi-automatic imports" -- aka, not an AK-47

But you knew that, right?

[ronnie624]

68. The whole point is to elude the law by importing certain parts.

AK-47? WTF?

[X_Digger]

71. There's no evasion of the law..

.. for a stamped piece of metal (the receiver) you have to go through a background check if you purchase from a dealer, just as you would for a whole firearm.

The point above, though, was that the parts kits and receivers that you can buy are not for full auto weapons (true AK-47s) but rather semi-automatic ones.

[ronnie624]

73. Thanks for the 'info'.

Though I'm not sure how it relates to the huge number of weapons being smuggled into Mexico from the U.S., especially when most of the murders there are being committed with handguns and semi-automatic rifles.

[X_Digger]

75. Handguns, yes.. semi-auto rifles?

Check the pictures of the guns seized.. a fair amount are full auto rifles that obviously didn't come from the US civilian market.

Apply Occam's razor.. which is the simpler (and therefore more likely) scenario?

a) A narcotraficante wanting a firearm contacts a business associate in the united states, who then finds someone with a clean record who they can trust to not rat them out. That third person purchases a weapon for the second (at US retail prices), and the second smuggles the firearm back into MX, risking seizure / arrest for straw purchases in the US and smuggling guns into MX.

b) A narcotraficante uses his normal means of communication with his suppliers in Bogota and says "throw two AKs into the next crate, k?" (full auto AK in Bogota runs about $150.)

Which is more likely? Getting cheap, more powerful guns via an established route running in the proper direction for large item smuggling or paying much more for a less powerful gun via a route much harder to smuggle large items?

[ronnie624]

76. The most likely scenario

is that weapons are being smuggled into Mexico from a neighboring country, with which Mexico shares a porous, almost 2000 mile long border, and in which small arms are cheap and readily available. The fact that the neighboring country also happens to be the most prodigious supplier of weapons on earth, with some of the least restrictive gun laws, makes the scenario even more likely, especially when one considers the restrictive gun laws in Latin America, which would increase the difficulty of smuggling thousands of semi-auto rifles from there.

So which scenario is really consistent with Occam's razor: a complicated and circuitous smuggling route that involves numerous middlemen and potentially multiple countries, or simply carrying them across a scarcely populated and poorly secured border frontier?

There's also the fact that both the Mexican government and the U.S. government are saying the same thing: most of the weapons being used in the violence in Mexico, are coming from the U.S., and that thousands have already been identified through the FBI's database as having originated in the United States.

I'm not going to waste more of my time posting links to information about this topic. A search produces thousands of links to sources saying the same thing. Anyone interested will have no problem finding them.

[X_Digger]

77. "restrictive gun laws in Latin America"?? Seriously?

Having done business in Valencia, Venezuela and Ica, Peru, I can tell you that regardless of what laws are on the books, getting a handgun, submachine gun, full auto rifle, even grenades- all are about as hard to obtain as a dime bag of your drug of choice in the US. My driver and I were talking guns, and he was bragging about his brand new 'fell off a truck' (I forget the idiom) FN FAL (full auto, .308 caliber).

[friendly_iconoclast]

80. "Trust me. Important politicians assure me that this is so."

Didn't we go through this with Iraq?

Repeating your argument doesn't make it any truer

Fact is, the only US guns we can confirm are the ones directly traced by the ATF, referenced in the GAO report.

*All* else is conjecture, despite any and all confidently delivered statements made by high level officials from
both governments.

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. Your Google-fu is weak, ronnie

Your first link is 404

The second link is from 2005 and discussing the FAL, a completely different rifle than the Kalashnikov (or variants thereof)

Where you got this idea that gangsters raking in millions dollars a month are reduced to making weapons from kits
instead of just buying some of the extant ones that are floating around Central and South America escapes me.

[DissedByBush]

21. Where do gangs get automatic weaspons here? n/t

[pipoman]

46. They don't.

Automatic weapons used in crime in the US are almost nonexistent.

[420inTN]

24. So, we just need to illegalize drug gangs and everything will be peachy fine.

oh.... wait....

[Fumesucker]

17. No, what feeds the "trafficking problem" is the illegality of drugs..

Alcohol Prohibition was basically "decriminalization" since the possession and use of alcohol were never made illegal, only the manufacture, importation and sale of the drug and yet violence soared.

You do not see alcohol distributors in violent shootouts these days and haven't since the end of Prohibition.

Making drugs legal won't completely end the violence but it will ratchet it down probably an order of magnitude or so.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. True, but their first stop is a MX government armory.

After that, who knows? The Mexican government has a lot of its weapons go missing, mostly they seem to end up in the
hands of various cartels.

[Chef Eric]

8. What's your point? That Mexico should make all guns legal, since they have so much violence anyway?

If that's what you're trying to say, then why don't you come out and say it?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

16. Not to threadjack, but what kind of gun will you buy?

Since you claim it's neccesary to arm one's self these days.

[DissedByBush]

25. Historically, any dickwad could buy a gun

Until we decided that certain undesirables shouldn't be able to have guns, like the newly-freed blacks.

Gun restrictions and drug prohibition have one thing in common in this country: they both have racist roots.

[bc3000]

11. This isn't a gun issue; it's a crime issue.

Drug gangs have money. No matter how strict you make gun laws, these are the type of people who will still have enough money to obtain them.

Why is this even coming up? Stop feeding a republican scare issue.

[DissedByBush]

28. Why is this their issue?

I have been wondering this for a long time.

Republicans don't care about our rights. Why do they support this one?

We are the party that supports individual rights.

Why is it that our party generally doesn't support this one?

I would love to see the day that gun rights are our issue and Republicans return to their normal role opposing the rights and freedoms for the little guy.

[aikoaiko]

13. I know making pot legal wouldn't end this violence, but I have to believe it would help

:shrug:

[naaman fletcher]

18. The point is this would all end if we legalized druges. nt.

[timo]

19. ????

if you dont live down here you wouldnt understand, those four suv's didnt pull up because they didnt get invites to the party, guns cost $ bullets cost $ the men who fire them cost $ and the cartels are not in the habit of pi$$ing away money on an op like that because thaey got their chones in a wad over not being invited.


and more guns are coming into mexico from the south and china than are coming from the north!! por favor belive it!!! those guns get bought by the sea can load not onsie twosie bullshit from nortenos, about a year ago down here someone rolled a grenade into a bar...it dindnt go off, it was tracked back to a shipment that was long ago sold to mexico and some others that have been found here in the states as well.

[xsquid]

27. Claro que si

timo, If people spent some time down there, got their news and info down there they would see the facts. The majority of the stuff is coming by water from the south as you say. Too much military on the guatamalan border for it to come by land.

I also agree with you about the shooting not being because of them getting their chones in a wad over not being invited, the cartels are not in the habit of just going off like that. Saludos.

[timo]

31. people are fooled

Hola !!! people get fooled because a news agency tool wrote a story and it sounded good.
The hard facts of life in mexico are if werent dope and wets they would be smuggling something else. Stolen cars are very popular, who wouldn't want a lexus at half price??? or some flat screens straight of the dock of the maquiladora? or a little labor union thuggery.
these people that make up the cartels would be doing something illegal they are criminals not because AMERICA forced them to be, but because it was/is the easy way out, if they put the same amount of effort into a legitimate enterprise they would be just as rich and not have to worry about getting a party favor from the cuerno de chivo.
but fear not AMerica, most of these guys who are doing the shot calling are getting smart and they are moving north, to big cities, so little by little they will infiltrate your society, and their kids will play with YOUR kids, until someone forgets to pay, or won't shut up when talking to the cops,or took a little tooooo much lana, got greedy and kept it for themselves, then they will have a party and some crew of guys will show up and write the mensaje all over the wall in 7.62 and 9mm. but hey don't take my word for it, wait till you read it in the news.

[xsquid]

41. Some of these guys

will deny it and stamp their feet even if its right in front of them. There are some narcos close to toluca that have a house built like a bunker, nobody even the cops or militar messes with them. You can't go out after dark there and the police won't do anything unless they are paid in the side.

You are correct though, the narcos will be in business no matter what. The child market, which is already big, would get bigger for one.

[timo]

51. I agree

it doesnt matter what the deal is, knock off dooney burke purses and tag watches, these guys would be extorting $ and cagando el palo in one way or the other, and whos gonna stop them? the current administration??? no mames buey!!!!!! it is a thousand times easier for the Mexican army or police to kill someone and say, ooops he was resisting arrest and my gun went off 23 times accidently. Whereas American law enforcement has to play by the rules and read the miranda warnings anmd due process and he gets a lawyer etc etc etc...mean while 14 kids who will kill you for your ipod have been waging war to see who gets to take his place and caused all kinds of heartache in the process..America wont do shit to Mexico accept send more $$$$$ to "help aid us in the fight against narco terrorism"....the bad part is they sent the money to the wrong groups!!!!!!!!! American politicians ME VALE MADRE!!

[martymar64]

44. If the war moves north to the US, the US will invade and occupy Mexico

But this time, we won't leave. Believe me, we would drop Iraq and Afghanistan and invade Mexico guns a blazing in a NY minute if the level of violence going on in Mexico moved north.
For instance, if a bomb was to go off or a attack similar to the one in CJ happens in Houston or San Antonio or Phoenix or San Diego and is traced to the narcos, the US public would be screaming for blood. The cry for revenge will make the reaction after 9/11 seem tame. Congress would push through resolutions authorizing an invasion of Mexico and it would pass both houses almost unanimously, and Obama would certainly sign it. Shortly thereafter, you'll start seeing US airstrikes hitting narco strongholds and a few hundred thousand troops will starting coming across the border, first brutally pacifying the border towns and then moving south, not stopping until they reach the Guatemalan border. And as recent experience in Germany, Japan, Korea and Iraq shows, we will never leave.
I'm not hoping for this scenario, but we have invaded Mexico before so its not outside the realm of possibility. Marines have marched into the halls of Montezuma once so it could definitely happen again.
So I guess the point is, if the Mexican government can't put a lid on the violence, eventually the full force of the US military will, and it won't be pretty.

[timo]

50. try closer to the border

like along the lines of Brownsville,Mcallen,laredo,Del Rio, El Paso etc....we already get the shootings by the grace of God the grenades they got didnt go off, but its just a matter of time because the shot callers are moving north, ask any realestate agent in San Antonio, they will tell you the influx of fresas from Montterey is skyrocketing, same with the chilangos from the D.F. Phoenix AZ the kidnapping capital of the states!!

when those airstrikes start, think of all the dopers in the states getting anxious, getting sick, getting the shakes,getting angry, thats gonna be some funny ass shit!!!!!! You wont have bombings at first, you will find a few bad guys dropped in the guiso, a 55gallon drum of diesel used to cook a human alive as torture and revenge,some beheadings, bodies dumped in the town square with a message to whom it may concern, kidnappings galore, media ignores most of it now because its just a bunch of dumb Mexicans..... and how will the congress deal with all the civil uprising when the mojaditos get pissed because some asshole blew up the wrong ejido? you couldnt hold them all, there arent enough prisons to hold the ones you have now, invading Mexico would be all kinds of unpopular!!!
no congressman would go near that!!

And like Chingo Bling said, "YOU CAN'T DEPORT US ALL!!!!"

[Rapier09]

60. No America isn't going to invade Mexico

However Americans are going to find it harder and harder to believe that Mexicans can adapt to America.

Also generally speaking a country that tears itself from the inside out tends to put those living abroad in a very bad position.

[martymar64]

45. Self Delete - Duplicate

[ronnie624]

35. This is the internet.

Anyone anywhere can get the same news, info and facts. Simply living "down there" offers no special insight.

[xsquid]

39. You must be kidding, have someone killed by narcos next door and see if you feel like that.

Plus by far hardly any gringos look to mexican noticias for their news, don't claim they do. You don't get the same picture with the us news.

[timo]

49. hahahhahaa

most yankees shit when they see Mexican newspapers that show all the dead bodies and mangled shit!!

[ronnie624]

53. I don't analyze events and facts with my 'feelings'.

It's a sure way to be mislead.

On the internet, I have access to news, information and opinions from all over the world, including Mexico. Isn't that neat?

Bye now, xsquid.

[xsquid]

58. You analyze it by sitting in your recliner being pablum fed the news by msnbc.

Bwahaha, what you are reading asre opinions that msnbc wants to feed you. Anyone that thinks living in the us is the same as living in the violence is just plain nuts. I used the murdered next door example as it happened to us, THAT is more than feeling. When you grow up you will find the world is different than what you think.

[ronnie624]

65. I don't believe you. n/t

[xsquid]

70. I knew you would not, you don't believe anything not on msnbc, but its true nt

[ronnie624]

72. Disbelief is always a danger when one depends on arguments from authority.

I neither believe nor disbelieve the claims about your personal experiences. I simply regard them for what they are: completely unverifiable, and therefore logically fallacious when used to promote your point of view.

The fact of the matter is, both the Mexican and U.S. governments say most of the weapons seized in Mexico are coming from the U.S. Analysts from both countries say weapons from the U.S. are being smuggled into Mexico in large numbers, and that they are a major contributing factor to the violence there. I posted links to information that show how easily the laws are circumvented to this end. I don't know why you are in denial about this. Your point of contention isn't clear based on the content of your posted messages.

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. The trouble with that is both the US and MX governments are also arguing from authority

And since you believe them, you find them persuasive.

We just went through this with the US and UK governments claiming that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
They, too, had lots of third parties chiming in with them.

See 'Chilcot' and 'Iraq' for further example

We have no way of independently confirming:

The number of guns the MX government actually seized.
The percentage of said seized weapons whose S/N's were submitted to the US government for tracing.

When questioned, you reference the availability of gun parts in the US as response.

Sorry, I do not see this as a reason to change US gun laws.

[timo]

47. really???

thats a dumb statement, who sees and knows better the people on the ground who live and breathe whats going on in their backyard???
or the armchair quarter back who live up north and thinks taco bell is real mexican food???

[ronnie624]

52. A more powerful emotional response

does not necessarily translate into more knowledge or a greater understanding of events. In fact, it's more likely to have the opposite effect. It is universally accepted as a matter of fact, that people in a state of emotional agitation are more likely to have their judgment impaired.

And anyone can read and analyze facts. One's geographical location of residence alone, does not make one any better informed than anyone else, regardless of the topic, especially in an era of almost instantaneous communication of news and information.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bucky]

32. Do you think this was an attack on the family of someone involved in the business?

That's the only thing I can think of to make sense of this--drug gangs feuding so hard they start going after each other's families.

[timo]

33. yup

like i said they didnt do it because they were didnt get an invite

[xsquid]

40. Thats why thhe militar and policia wear masks,

family killings are huge.

[NeoConsSuck]

64. Cartel turf war behind Juarez massacre, official says

(CNN) -- A war between drug gangs was behind this weekend's massacre in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, that left 16 dead, including 10 teenagers, an official told CNN Tuesday.

The gunmen who opened fire on a party early Sunday belonged to the Juarez drug cartel, who believed that the partygoers were all members of a gang affiliated with the rival Sinaloa cartel, Enrique Torres, spokesman for the city's federal security operations, told CNN.

Details of the alleged motive came from a police interrogation with a suspect who was arrested Monday.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/02/02/mexico.juarez.killings/index.html?hpt=Sbin

[rabs]

69. El Paso man killed in shootout led cartel hit squad

(More details than the CNN story.)

By Daniel Borunda and Adriana Gómez Licón / El Paso Times
Posted: 02/03/2010 12:00:00 AM MST

An El Paso man killed by Mexican soldiers in a shootout on Monday was the mastermind behind the massacre of 16 people at a birthday party over the weekend in Juárez, federal officials said Tuesday night.

Adrian Ramirez, alias "Ramon, El 12 or El Rama," allegedly led a hit team for the Juárez drug cartel also known as La Linea, authorities said in statement that included artist renderings of other suspects in the slayings.

Federal officials said the team of shooters believed the people attending the party were members of a rival gang known as Artistas Asesinos. Officials refused to say whether any of the victims were gang members, but most of them were identified as students and athletes.

http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_14322281

[goforit]

48. Chaos, guns and drugs.............lovely scene

[Ron Green]

74. It's the Free Market at work!

This shit is 'way out of balance.

[anonymous171]

81. Maybe the Mexican government should consider clamping down on gun ownership? nt