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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:11 PM
Original message
Another tiger species headed for extinction?
Edited on Tue Mar-16-04 03:12 PM by villager
homo sapiens - what a wonderful goddamn species...

Another tiger species headed for extinction?

Poaching in Indonesia's Sumatra widespread, report finds

Chris R. Shepherd / TRAFFIC Southeast Asia

March 16, 2004

Unless poaching for body parts is stopped, Indonesia's Sumatran tiger could be the first large predator to become extinct this century, according to a report Tuesday by a network that monitors the illegal trade in endangered species.

Three of the world’s eight tiger subspecies have already gone extinct in the past 70 years. The remaining five subspecies are all endangered.

The report by Traffic found that despite an international ban on trading in tiger parts, at least 50 Sumatran tigers were hunted each year between 1998 and 2002. The total population of Sumatran tigers — found only on the Indonesian island of Sumatra — is estimated to be 400 to 500.

<snip>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4539423/
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. delete
Edited on Tue Mar-16-04 03:12 PM by demdave
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Extinct in the wild, or completely extinct?
You'd think that some of the subspecies would still survive in zoos, although I suppose it's possible that tigers don't breed well in captivity.

I hope somebody is collecting DNA samples, just in case.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. but that's not the same as having them in the wild...
...where they belong.

Pacing, neurotic tigers in cages aren't really "tigers" in the same sense as the majestic animals who fill our dreams are...
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. don't know about this subspecies
but the lincoln park zoo here has had pretty good success in breeding endangered cats, including tigers.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. which is fine as far is it goes....
...but zoo specimens don't really fill the needed role of "tigers" in the world.

Methinks that without something wilder than us out there -- wolves, tigers, panthers, grizzlies, etc. -- our spirits are diminished...
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. didn't mean to suggest that they did
i think most responsible zoos these days see themselves as "arks", keeping species from extinction, with the hope of releasing them again once mankind has regained it's sanity.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. true, the sense of "mission" has changed at a lot of zoos...
...but waiting for humankind to regain its sanity, well, that's gonna be one hell of a long wait...
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. tigers do breed well in zoos
sometimes too well. The problem lies in managing the gene pool. A well kept stud book can keep inbreeding at a minimum, the problem is selection. That is, are the animals that we breed in captivity being selected(in the evolutionary sense)for traits useful for survivial in the wild? We may select for traits unsuitable for reintroduction.
Captive breeding can and has been successful in saving species but it is a desperate, last ditch option. As a former zookeeper I have the utmost respect for those efforts, and some are brilliant, but letting thing go that far really pushes the envelope. DNA is currently a pipe dream, sf.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. Evolution is too slow for that. Avoiding inbreeding is enough. (nt)
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. beg to differ
under normal circumstances you are correct. However, in a situation where you have less than say 50 breeders it is a concern. In a situation where some specimens breed better than others that "better breeding" trait will quickly come to dominate your gene pool. That's how we got our domestic livestock. Will that trait affect the species survivial in the wild? Maybe, maybe not. But it is a risk to be recognised in a species that close to the edge.
I'm all for captive breeding as a last resort but we should do all we can to avoid having to resort to that last option.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Bush Admin is trying to weaken
The Endangered Species Act, which means all species now on the brink, will probably be gone.

Please visit Defenders of Wildlife.org or any other group workin to try & save these magnificent species.

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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You can pass any law you want but until you convince the Asians
that they can buy viagra instead of killing rhinos for their horns and tigers for their penises, the killing will continue.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Politically Incorrect Rant
I am so sick and gosh-darned tired of hearing about endangered species becoming extinct because of "Chinese Medicine".
:wtf:

What the hell is wrong with these people?
What are they going to do when all the rhino horns, bear livers, elephant cocks, etc. etc. etc. are ALL GONE!!?!?!?!?
:mad:
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. well, right....
there's no reason to believe that whites in the west are the only utterly myopic batch o' humans...
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. For a second there I thought you were chastising me.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Nope, you just primed my pump!
;-)
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minkyboodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. don't get me started....
don't forget about the oceanic pursuit of these things as well (shark fin soup etc...) Its really disheartening.
Scott
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Shadder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Phew!
Thought at first glance you were talking about the Detroit Tigers.....
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mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. The South Chinese Tiger will be gone soon as well
No one has ever successfully introduced tigers back into the wild.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Not true. Tigers have been successfully re-introduced into the wild.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-04 07:39 PM by Ladyhawk
I just saw a documentary about a fellow who released tigers back into the wild...in Africa of all places! There's just no safe habitat left for them in their native ranges, so the experiment was conducted in Africa.

He successfully taught the tigers how to hunt and they're currently living on a reserve built especially for them and doing just fine catching their own prey.

This is proof that if safe habitat can be secured in the various tiger subspecies' home ranges, they can be re-released.
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mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. The Bengal, Siberian (Amur) and Corbett's are also endangered
there will be no more wild tiger populations in 50 years
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. And the Caspian, Javan and Balinese subspecies are already extinct nt
.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. indonesia
the indonesian army is particularly complicit in the trade in endangered species. there are quite a few parrots that are endangered as much by the pet trade as habitat destruction. parrots to sell is considered as much a perk of the job as the right to extort bribes.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. unintended consequences
of world trade. Some Chinese have become well off selling cheapness to us and they spend their money like drunken sailors exterminating the worlds wildlife for their bogus "traditional medicine". And its not just the charismatic megafauna that's getting whacked, tens of thousands of fresh water turtles fron the southeast were exported last year to China. South Carolina implemented a moritorium on trapping last year, I hope it continues. If not, be assured when I hit the swamps this year its monkey wrench time!!!
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. good point about "free" trade
amping up the market for poached goods, too...

and -- "happy hunting" in the swamps...;)
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Nonsense- don't pawn this off on the Chinese.
They have laws protecting endangered species as well and enforce them much more strictly than we do in the west.

And all the rich Chinese people I know have better things to spend their money on than rhino horns (like Gucci and Haagen Dazs).

It's the rich tourists who come to Southern China looking for a little culinary adventure who down a good percentage of the protected species.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No, I'll quite happily pawn it off on them.
They have laws protecting endangered species as well and enforce them much more strictly than we do in the west.

The above statement is patently, absurdly untrue.

And all the rich Chinese people I know have better things to spend their money on than rhino horns (like Gucci and Haagen Dazs).


How is that relevant?
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Patently false?
Edited on Tue Mar-16-04 11:59 PM by bezdomny
"China has enacted a number of laws and regulations to protect these endangered species, including acceding to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, promulgating a law to protect terrestrial wild animals, and completely prohibiting all traffic in tiger bone and some rhinoceros horn. Yet these measures will not prove effective, and illegal hunting and trade will continue throughout the world, unless alternative sources for these valuable medicines can be developed.

China has already begun work to develop alternative medicines and to breed and domesticate endangered species. For example, with respect to musk deer, work is under way to breed a domestic population, to develop methods to collect musk from live deer, and to artificially synthesize musk. Centres have also been set up to breed and domesticate the Northeast tiger and the Saiga antelope, and to explore alternatives to rhinoceros horn and other medicines.

China is now seeking technical and financial assistance in order to continue its scientific research on alternatives, expand its domestication and breeding activities, establish protective zones and conservation banks to protect endangered wild populations, and set up an information system to monitor by species its population, habitats, and illegal trade. These actions will enable China to develop a secure supply for traditional Chinese medicines that does not rely upon or jeopardize endangered animal species."

http://www.acca21.org.cn/pp8-3.html

Penalties for illegal hunting and trafficking in China:

"THE ENVIRONMENT ENTERS THE CHINESE CRIMINAL CODE
A report from U.S. Embassy Beijing May 1997

Penalties for Illegal Hunting, Trafficking in Wildlife
Section 340 -- punishes under the provisions of the Water Resources Protection Law whomsoever captures aquatic products in areas closed to fishing, outside the fishing season, or using illegal equipment or methods by imprisonment of three years or less or a fine.

Section 341 -- punishes whomsoever illegally hunts or kills wild animals protected by the State as valuable or endangered animals or illegally purchases, transports or sells protected wild animals or products made from protected wild animals with imprisonment of five years or less and a fine. In serious cases imprisonment of over ten years and a fine or confiscation of property may be imposed. Whomsoever violates hunting regulations by hunting in areas closed to hunting, by hunting outside the hunting season or by using illegal hunting equipment or methods can be punished, in serious cases, with imprisonment, detention or restriction of up to three years or a fine.

Penalties for Trafficking in Protected Animal Products
The penalty for poaching is now up to three years imprisonment compared with up to two years under the previous law. Trafficking in "products made from protected wild animals" appears in the law for the first time, recognizing that the crime of buying, selling and transporting wild animals products made from protected wild animals is just as serious as trapping and killing protected species."

http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/sandt/envlaw.htm

vs. US Penalties under the 1973 Endangered Species Act

"Penalties and Enforcement (ESA ¡ì 11). Criminal penalties of up to $50,000 or imprisonment for one year, or both, and civil penalties of up to $25,000 per violation, may be assessed against a person who knowingly violates, or a person engaged in business as an importer or exporter of fish, wildlife or plants who violates, a provision of the Act or its regulations relating to: importing or exporting, taking, possessing, selling, delivering, carrying, transporting, or shipping after taking; participating in interstate or foreign commerce or any commercial activity of any endangered species of fish, wildlife or plants in violation of CITES; engaging in business as an importer or exporter of fish, wildlife, plants, or African elephant ivory, or importing into or exporting from other than a designated port without first obtaining permission of the Secretary; soliciting, attempting to solicit, or causing to be committed any prohibited act. Criminal penalties of up to $25,000, imprisonment of six months, or both, and civil penalties of up to $12,000 per violation, may be assessed against a person who knowingly violates, or a person engaged in business as an importer or exporter who violates, other regulations issued under the Act. A person who otherwise violates a provision of the Act or a regulation, permit or certificate may be assessed a civil penalty of $500 per violation. (The maximum criminal fines noted in this paragraph are those stated in the Endangered Species Act; however, the Sentencing Reform Act of 1984, as amended in 1987, increases the fines that may be imposed. See the summary of the Sentencing Reform Act in this Handbook.)"

http://ipl.unm.edu/cwl/fedbook/esa.html

I dunno. I kind of live in China and work at a job that puts me in contact with a good cross section of quite wealthy Chinese people. And I have yet to meet any "drunken sailors" with nothing better to spend their massive fortunes on than rhino horns. Strikes me as a fairly condescending thing to say (the poor, poor dears just can't handle all that wealth) and so I responded with my own experience. I never said it was the definitive argument- simply that one other person's uninformed subjective opinion stuck me as false.





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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Enforced like the Chinese mining safety laws, I am sure.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. window dressing
so you know some rich Chinese in the metropolis, good for you. I'm sure that speaks for a nation of 1 billion.
The Chinese government does what it must do in order to maintain western favor. Many nations have good wildlife laws on the books, but they are ignored or underfunded. A friend of mine visited China a few years ago and toured several tradional medicine markets and was appalled by whay he saw. Endangered species products were openly displayed. I'll see if I can get you some pix.
Consider the Three Gorges Project. The Yangzee(sp) dolphin will be gone. And the Chinese Alligator. Not to mention some species of fish.
Leaving asside lions & tigers & bears what about the turtles? Several species of recently described Chinese box turtle are now no longer to be found. Southeast Asia's turtles are being decimated for the Chinese market. Now our species in the SE US are being targeted for the same market.
Tourist? You can do better.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Exactly!
The Chinese may SAY they are protecting their own species, well good for them.

That doesn't stop them from poaching from other nations.
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chenGOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Jesus...you guys...
Like you've never seen any western homes with Tiger skin rugs? Old timers down in Florida with alligator skin shoes? People with real leopard fur bags?

Note that the original article actually talked about Indonesian traditional medicines, not Chinese.

Now this is not to say that the Chinese are blameless, far from it. However, to blame every exctinct exotic species on the Chinese is just ridiculous. Google for North American extinct species. And that's not even counting South America. Blaming is easy to do. Educating is much more difficult and very fucking trying, but it doesn't mean we should just start pointing fingers around in large general swaths.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. I never said the West was blameless
Far from it. But I WILL say, stereotypes like "The Great White Hunter" are passe in our culture. I would say a majority of Westerners find tiger skin rugs, etc. to be distasteful.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. there's heaps of blame to go arround
but the fact is that the Chinese market targets tigers, bears and rhinos(along with Yemen)along with other species and its a serious money buisness.
Plenty blame to go around. The Japanese lust after ivory and tortoise shell(hawksbill sea turtle). In Latin America sea turtles are ruthlessly exploited for the pathetic amount of leather on their body and their eggs, which many consider an aphrodisiac. In Sub Saraha Africa the bushmeat trade threatens chimps, bonobos, lowland gorillas and mandrills with extinction.
Of course, WE don't do things like that. We just destroy and poison their habitats and then get concerned. And of course directly and indirectly finance much of the above.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
22. :-(
Such beautiful creatures
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. I wish human corruption
was going extinct.
Dammit.
WE humans need to develop a conscience and learn to SHARE and not exploit others. Or we will all die and take all the good creatures down with us except for maybe roaches.
Leaders require followers.Followers are made.

Exploiters need complicit people to get away with being corrupt.Complicit people are sell outs to the corrupt and so are corrupted by selling out.

When will people stop this bullshit?
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PartyPooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
29. Siegfried and Roy. Where do they stand on this issue?
Inquiring DU'ers wanna' know!
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JetCityLiberal Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
30. These are now extinct
From a post on the Environmental/Energy/Science forum these animals have no hope.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x6003

When will we learn?

It better be soon.

JetCityLiberal
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. and how long with humans delude themselves...
...that they are exempt from the "extinction wave" they created...?
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