Venezuela offers Aristide refuge

[bemildred]

Jamaica is also refusing to recognize Latortue.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has offered refuge to ousted Haitian
leader Jean-Bertrand Aristide and said he still recognised him as the
legitimate president of the Caribbean country.

"We don't recognize the new government of Haiti," Mr Chavez said in a
speech in eastern Venezuela.

"The president of Haiti is called Jean-Bertrand Aristide. ... Venezuela's
doors are open to President Jean-Bertrand Aristide."

His offer appeared to be a general, open-ended invitation to the ousted
Haitian president.

ABC.NET.AU

[tlcandie]

1. Yay!!!!!

Thank you Chavez!!!!

[Judi Lynn]

2. Interesting news, isn't it?

Hugo Chavez may as well paint a target on his back.

Gotta hand it to him, he's got real courage, and character. He's calling these unwholesome guys out.

I'll bet we're going to hear a brand new story now concerning a discovery Chavez is DANGEROUS to U.S. interests. Oh, yeah, he's WITH the terrorists who populate _Bush's PNAC storybooks.

Look for an all-out barrage of propaganda, with return cameo visits from some of DU's most driven right-wing coup supporters.

[bemildred]

7. Might as well do the right thing.

He already has a target on his back,
and playing nice won't buy him a thing.

[ret5hd]

8. no sh*t...

but now that you bring it up, it seems that a couple of the most tedious of those supporters showed up after Aristide's ouster. Could they have been some kind of "innoculation" front, with pre-knowledge of this development?

god, they got so bad for a week or so that i just tired of answering them...it was almost as if there were a "team" behind each name. i wonder how much that job pays?

[AP]

9. Chavez has defined the struggle of the 21st century as neoliberalism vs

Keynsian/Stiglitzian/New Deal/Progress for America-style economic development.

Which side are you on?

[Avalon Sparks]

50. However -

Joesph Stiglitz is on Chavez's side now. The former Clinton economic advisor wrote "Globalization and it's Discontents" because he didn't agree with all the neo con's running the World Bank...

[Vladimir]

10. Half of Chavez's problem

is his stubborn insistence on doing the right thing as opposed to playing politics. If he can somehow survive on the enemy's terms, it will be a political victory that will resonate well beyond Venezuela.

V

[bemildred]

20. It appears to me that Mr. Chavez understands the situation.

It was not without reason that he selected Bolivar the
Liberator as his emblematic forebear.

Edit: spelling

[Just Me]

24. Perhaps, that is why there are those who support, even admire him.

He appears on the side of the masses rather than the political elite.

My sense is that the people of the world have had enough of arrogant, elitist (whether in wealth/influence/religion) leaderships; and the people of the world are sick of the carnage wreaked by corporatism and imperialistic ambitions. It is becoming more lucid that, the concentration of wealth and power is an obstacle to hope for a healthy democracy because that concentration recycles an environment which serves a few rather than the many.

[Vladimir]

26. I hear you man

even a realpolitik loving cynic like me can't fail to feel an affection for Chavez. I just hope he hasn't misjudged things.

V

[Just Me]

40. Ahem,...you hear the words of a woman *smile*,...

,...although I realize you were most likely doing a relaxed expression just like me, man *grin*.

[peacetalksforall]

37. Amen

and ditto.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

13. That's all you can say?

CASTRO! CASTRO! CASTRO!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

15. I know. What a weird fixation.

[AP]

17. It's much easier than trying to defend the coup in Haiti, I guess.

It reminds me of the Wizard of Oz: don't look at Uncle Sam behind the curtain.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

14. Surely your boys at the Agency know the answer.

Maybe you can ask around and let the rest of us know.

[Judi Lynn]

18. Hi, mobuto.

Dunno! I DO know that Cuba sent doctors immediately, who got right in there and started treating gunshot victems.


~Otto Reich's unacknowledged tattoo~

On edit: you won't see Otto Reich's likeness ANYWHERE as a tatt!

[Vladimir]

19. No, no, you haven't read the script

they were slaves, forced to cure the wounded by the evil monster Castro when they would have much rather have been asking them if they had insurance...

get with the program, will ya?

V

[Judi Lynn]

30. Isn't that sad?

I DID hear that embarrassing attempt to stretch the Miami agenda wide enough to cover Haiti, too.

Sure, the actual quotes from the Cuban doctors SEEMED genuine enough, but then that only showed how terrified they were of Castro's eating their children if they didn't put on a convincing charade to fool the world into believing they are not, actually, slaves, working in desperate fear, every day of their poor lives until their oppressed, grief-stricken, freedom-aspiring hearts simply give out.

It's a shame that Miami crowd refuses to get a hobby.

[TahitiNut]

22. For an old guy like me, it's nice to see ...

... the politics of the "Red Menace" alive and well. :eyes:

[mobuto]

27. You really think that's what this is about?

Rather than opposition to repressive dictatorships of all sorts, regardless of where they claim to lie on the political spectrum?

[TahitiNut]

28. Not that what I "really think" is relevant ...

... "what this (thread) is all about" is that Chavez of Venezuela has reportedly offered asylum to Aristide.

I see nothing in the Original Message (which is the topic, after all) about Castro or Cuba, just as I see nothing about Bermuda, Turks and Caicos, the Bahamas, or many other Caribbean nations.

It'd be nice if we could keep "on-topic." :shrug:

[mobuto]

29. So then why accuse me of red baiting?

I don't follow.

[TankLV]

47. I for one understand where you are comming from.

We haven't seen eye-to-eye for awhile here, but I've been reading your posts on another topic, and I have to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your intentions.

I cannot be that noble, however. I cannot spend time making excuses or even partially agreeing with anything that this gang of criminals occupying OUR White House has done or said. Never. This is war. I will remain silent rather than say anything nice about bunkerboy.

Give Mobutu some slack here.

Castro isn't exactly the poster boy for fair elections or democracy here - I happen to think lately he's been more correct than bunkerboy, and I support the old "enemy of my enemy" adage here. But I don't have any illusions about Castro and Cuba, either. Castro's just not a saint - he's quite far from it. The problem is, bunkerboy and his gang of thugs have more in common with the worst of Castro's record than anything resembling American Democracy or Enlightenment and Freedom (the original meaning of true "Freedom", not the war slogan it has become).

But, I almost forgot to say: WAY TO GO HUGO! VIVA CHAVEZ! WE FULLY SUPPORT YOU!

[Mika]

53. Its easy. I'll show you all about US/Cuba relations..

Here..

USA = Good
Cuba = Bad


See? Its easy. Easier still if one substitutes Castro for Cuba, then Americans can more easily ignore the will of the Cuban people.

Ahhh..... Ignorance is bliss.

-----------------


Don't ask questions!


Here are a few of the national parties of in Cuba,

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/8144848.htm">The Moderate Opposition's Reflection Group of Cuba
[br />Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 in the city of Santiago de Cuba, his hometown.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Fidel Castro Ruz, Cuba's greatest revolutonary war hero and still living, has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[dax]

48. If we oppose dictatorships, why are we friends with Egypt? Saudi? Turkey

There are countless dictatorships we don't even hear BushCo mention and certainly the US has had warm friendships with previous dictatorships-we supported Saddam, SHah of Iran, Manuel Noriega, Pinochet-don't you get it, Mobuto-dictatorships are fine with US government as long as we can make money off their countries and control their economies-the only countries called terrorist and dictatorships that we need to overthrow are the ones that stand up to the IMF or try to price with Euros or try to build their indigenous people's economies without corporate control. The US has not supported democracy anywhere in the world in the 50 years I have been alive. Those countries that have kow-towed to the IMF and corporate control find their economies in a shambles and an increase in poverty, inequality and the real "death squad"-lack of clean water, health care, housing and education. Watch babies die of dehydration due to cholera or deformed by depleted uranium all over a country and suicide bombers don't seem so outrageous-real terrorism is bombing a desert of gentle nomads in uninhabitable terrain for anyone without centuries of adaptation. they didn't need cluster bombs then and they don't need McDonald's now.

[Aidoneus]

35. Indeed

For once the good guys might actually come ahead here, if they can learn to work together to resist the fascist aggressions (which are working in tandem, it would appear).

They've already drudged up the "al-Qai'dah" in Venezuela line of bullshit before, right before the previous corporatist coup attempt. I think Hizbullah's Islamic Resistance and Saddam Hussein are teaming up with FARC and the Shining Path (operating out of that "triangle" area of the upper Amazon), backed by Hugo Chavez, Aristide, and Fidel Castro...to INVADE AMERICA UNLESS WE DO SOMETHING NOW! :eyes:

[0007]

39. Truth is bracing itself from the money lords who buy assassins

and glib talkers who try to poison folks with lies for the sake of blood money.

[kaitykaity]

3. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. (Think Meg Ryan and that Sally movie.)

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. This is too good!!!!

[ret5hd]

4. oh yeah...

thank you hugo.

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. JB should take it. Chavez has a bigger army than Jamaica

and behind that army, millions of angry Indians who are more likely to be frightened by Paris Hilton than a few hundred Marines.

[bemildred]

16. I do believe it would take more that a few hundred.

And we do seem a bit short-handed at the moment.

[DuctapeFatwa]

21. And Paris Hilton is booked solid through summer. Oh, well.

Can't invade em all.

[bemildred]

23. So many little countries to be slapped around for disobedience,

so few marines ...

[bobthedrummer]

6. Chavez has a pair.

And oil. This is an interesting development, indeed.

[The Blue Knight]

12. Go go Hugo Chavez!

You da man!

[Just Me]

25. I totally crack up everytime I see that crop shot!!! *eom*

[underpants]

43. They are just asking for it aren't they?

Yeah Chavez does have a pair not that I care for him too much but that is a real "f**k you".

[Almost_there]

31. Is Chavez really offering asylum, or is he slopping bushy in the mud?

Just curious if anyone thinks that Chavez is just doing this for political points as opposed to really offering him asylum, which I doubt he is likely to take up. (Only with the possibility that Chavez will be voted out sooner or later) Its great to see Chavez rub bushy's nose in it, but, how serious is the offer?

Just sort of a contrarian view, I got a chuckle out of reading the article, it just seemed... contrived. I dunno.

~Almost

[bemildred]

34. Aristide stayed in Venezuela last time. nt

[dax]

42. Chavez is just speaking truth to POWER-"you're not the boss of me"

With a coup hanging over his country he can stand tall-a major oil supplier to the US and a larger economy than any but Britain of the Coalition of the Killing-ready to say-We saw your coup d'etat and we don't recognize your puppet government and if we all stick together-guess what-you don't own the Carribbean so BUTT OUT! He is a real cowboy he is- kind of John Wayne with an accent! Courage looks good next to AWOL and his crew.

[Ignis]

45. Like Pavlov's dogs at the sound of a bell...

Working as a tag-team now, are we?

Intellectual integrity would seem to demand that one review each actions of a person for its own merits, rather than simply deciding beforehand that every action performed by that person is worthy of censure.

Of course, this presumes that you were honest in your posts beginning only a few days ago that you were merely asking questions about Chavez, rather than entering the fray to support the anti-Chavez brigade--that is, Windandsea--by any means necessary. Frankly, it all seems a bit convenient for me.

[Almost_there]

56. Huh? Wow, you lost me.

OK, so, I guess personal flames are ok in this forum, that's cool. From reading the articles, I have been allowed to form something called "Opinions", as defined as 1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL, ESTEEM
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=opinion&x=0&y=0 That means what I think doesn't have to necessarily agree with what you think. Note the "stronger than impression, less strong than positive knowledge." If you need any of those words researched, do it yourself. Yes, I am entitled to my own thoughts, and from what I read, I tend to think that Chavez is doing this to jab it in the BFEE's eye. Just my "Opinion".

~Almost

[Chicago Democrat]

32. VIVE ARISTIDE!!! VIVA CHAVEZ!! DOWN WITH BUSH!!

VIVA ARISTIDE VIVA CHAVEZ!!!

Hip Hip ! Hurrah!

[Judi Lynn]

33. “Will You Comply?” (Interview with a commander of the Vene. Army)

Via Haiti US, Megaphones Venezuela:
“Will You Comply?”
by Heinz Dietrich
Translated with an introductory note by Toni Solo
www.dissidentvoice.org
March 16, 2004



An interview with General Raul Baduel commander of the Venezuelan army by Heinz Dieterich

The barbaric violation of basic legal norms revealed by British detainees lately released from Guantanamo is emblematic of US foreign policy root and branch. Open or covert illegal aggression has always been a principal tool of US foreign policy. The energy needs of the US and its allies will dictate the next likely savage intervention: Venezuela.

Venezuela is an obstacle to the full implementation of US plans for the region. Those plans require control of extraction and transport of Latin America's energy resources and on destroying the region's food sovereignty. Plan Colombia, Plan Puebla Panama and the “free trade” corporate welfare scams the US seeks to impose on the region are the main policy instruments to achieve those goals. Multinational European corporations are willing collaborators.

It is certainly not mere coincidence that the US now has military bases in the Dutch Antilles – Curaçao and Aruba. Like the other huge oil companies including British Petroleum and the United States oil giants, the Anglo Dutch oil multinational Shell would love a free hand in a privatized Venezuelan oil industry. It goes without saying that European Union foreign policy prioritizes European energy needs. This fact probably does much to explain why European mainstream media resolutely refuse to report the facts of political and economic events in the country,

This interview by writer Heinz Dieterich with the head of the Venezuelan armed forces gives an interesting insider's view into the latest bout of destabilization in Venezuela – which many people there regard as a yet another externally orchestrated attempt to overthrow the democratically elected President Hugo Chavez Frias.
(snip/...)

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar04/Dietrich-Solo0316.htm

[bemildred]

36. Fascinating, thanks for putting it up. nt

[Aidoneus]

38. very interesting, thanks JudiLyn..

Might be worth a thread of its own in another forum? :shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

41. Thanks to you and bemildred for reading it.

It's unnerving, isn't it? Ships parked, once again, close to Venezuela, helicopter carrier, Colombia suddenly getting tanks from Spain along that border, and sharp-shooter snipers discovered in Valencia. Creepy.

Of course, no one in _Bush's misadministration would be capable of any kind of vicious, illegal attacks on another country's elected President. We can put that thought right out of our minds!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~p/center]

Sorry to ask a stupid question, but, since I have spent almost all of my DU time at LBN, I'm in the dark about the best place to put this article. Do you have a suggestion? (No profanity, please.) Would you suggest "Editorials?"

[bemildred]

49. I think it more in the nature of provocation/threat

than any current plan to do something. The Bushites seem to
really not understand any other modus operandi than threats,
bribery, and force. It's a great weakness really.

There is a good deal of threatening and provocation going on in
a number of places around the World that does not appear to be
anything but talk at this point, e.g. Syria, Iran, Georgia. It's
fairly interesting that they seem to have no interest in threatening
N. Korea at present. Of course you can never be sure with these
loons, after watching them attempt to occupy Iraq, it's hard to
be sure what other sort of stupidity they might convince themselves
to give a shot at.

As it says, it's an attempt to maximize the threat value of the
coup in Haiti to try and get the other disobedient Latin American
nations back in line. The threat is real in a way, we have done
that sort of thing many times, but we are not in a position to pursue
it with confidence at present, and going in and not looking
invincible is worse than doing nothing.

The General's job is to think about these things and be ready,
he speaks from that point of view. If they ever do come at him,
every effort will be made to have it be a surprise, hence the
paranoid POV. It was interesting to see where he sees the dangers
and his assessments of the actions of various parties.

I usually use Editorials of Foreign Affairs for stuff I want to hang
there for the interested parties for a while. In this case I would
use F/A. You don't get much response in most cases, but those who
grovel over these things will see it.

[Judi Lynn]

51. Thanks. I'll do it! n/t

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

44. Boy that really must piss off G DUHbya

[Judi Lynn]

46. This is a move which separates Hugo Chavez from something like Bush

From the article:

Although Mr Chavez said he did not recognize Haiti's new government, led by Prime Minister Gerard Latortue, he said oil-rich Venezuela was offering humanitarian aid to Haiti, including supplies of fuel oil.
(snip)

Although Venezuela, as well as a lot of other countries, believe Bush reamed Aristide and arranged his kidnapping and transport to CAR, where he was held, without access to communication with others for an extended period of time, and a press conference his wife attempted was interrupted and the tv cameras and mikes disconnected by secret police, and a pompous ass, a right-wing stooge who has been exiled and living the right-wing life in Florida installed as the new leader, Venezuela intends to continue to supply oil to Haiti.

You will note that the REPUBLICAN WAY is to throw embargoes on leaders they don't like, and punish the people in their countries endlessly, severely, and viciously.

Big difference between Republicans and human beings.

[Layman]

52. Mi Casa Es Tu Casa

Hablas Espanol Nino George? Verdad? Entoces chinga su madre.
Su amigo, Cesar

[seemslikeadream]

54. Venezuela offers refuge to Aristide

Venezuela offers refuge to Aristide






"It's a snub to the United States -- the good-old `my enemies' enemies are my friends thing," said a Caracas-based diplomat, who asked anonymity.

Although Venezuela remains a leading oil supplier to the United States, Chavez has made a point of criticizing U.S. foreign and trade policy and befriending anti-U.S. states such as Cuba, Iran and Zimbabwe.

The Venezuelan president, who says Washington is trying to overthrow him, backed allegations by Aristide that U.S. authorities abducted him.

"He was kidnapped by troops of the country which preaches democracy to the world: the United States," Chavez said

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/headline/world/2452688

[seemslikeadream]

55. Chávez opens door to Aristide

IN CAPITAL: Marines from Camp Lejeune, N.C., patrol Port-au-Prince. There were no shootings Monday night. TECH SGT. ANDY DUNAWAY/U.S. AIR FORCE




Posted on Wed, Mar. 17, 2004



PRESIDENT IN EXILE


BY JACQUELINE CHARLES AND MICHAEL A.W. OTTEY


WELCOME

Chávez told a nationwide address Tuesday that ''the doors of Venezuela are open'' to the former president, who resigned and fled Haiti on Feb. 29, spent two weeks in the Central African Republic and arrived Monday in Jamaica.

Chávez echoed Aristide's allegation, denied by Washington, that he was ousted in a virtual coup backed by the United States and tricked into going into exile, and he criticized the lack of action by the Organization of American States.

''What silence with respect to the kidnapping of a person, besides a popularly elected president,'' Chávez said, blaming ``the troops of the country that shouts about democracy in the world.''

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8204244.htm