Threats 'linked to headscarf ban'

[demdave]

THREATS made by a Muslim group against France are linked to a controversial law that bans the wearing of headscarves in state schools, the newspaper that received the threatening letter said today.

The two-page letter to Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin "threatens France with reprisal attacks following the February 10 adoption of the law banning the headscarf", Le Parisien news director Christian de Villeneuve said.

On February 10, France's lower house of parliament, the National Assembly, voted through the bill banning the wearing of conspicuous religious symbols in state schools. The Senate approved the measure on March 3.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8991515%255E1702,00.html

[Florida_Geek]

1. If France gets attacked over this

they have only themselves to blame and I will not feel sorry for them.

[Chelzek]

2. Wow

So you don't have a problem with people getting killed over a head scarf. I know of someone who would agree with that... his name starts with an O.

[Florida_Geek]

7. The Christians Right pushed this ban

and it was supported by the French Sheep. This is a Religious issue of my religion is more correct than yours.

[Flagg]

11. "The Christians Right pushed this ban"

prove it or shut up

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[Chelzek]

19. HAHAHA

Let me guess my american friend, you have never even step foot on French soil?

I find it funny ANYONE can claim a nation with such an EXTREMELY politcally weak christian minority somehow was able to push the secular french government to adopt this policy. Perhaps you have not seen the numbers on exactly how many people are atheist/agnostic in france? As well as how many people in its population classify as christian fundamentalist?

Frankly I don't care about your religion (or anyone elses). But if you want to force a secular government to intergrate religion and government I will not support you. Your religion (as well as any other) has no place in any French government building per French law. You might find it to be some kind of "persecution", but as an atheist living in a christian fundamentalist stronghold I can assure you I know far more about religious persecution than you. Hell, in some muslim nations I would be outright killed.

Also, careful with the "my religion is more correct" talk. It breeds the fundamentalism you seem to have a problem with. (or maybe it only applys to other religions... <sigh> I'm so sick of watching the religious fundamentalists on every side fight. Pathetic.)

[Just Me]

37. Yup,...the "my beliefs are superior to yours" thing breeds bad stuff.

It always has and always will. I am a spiritual human being and, as such, avoid holding myself out as anything other than equal to others in value. I, too, am sick of religious fundamentalists incite unecessary division, hatred and violence. Enough already!!!

[fujiyama]

24. The Christian right?

There hardly exists a "Christian right" in France. The ban was pushed because of the need to secure a secular tradition.

So, now it's all right to kill innocent people because of headscarves?

[rinsd]

45. Huh?

The Christian Right (nearly non-existent in France) pushed a ban on religious clothing including large crosses?

I had no idea they were so wily.

[PsychoDad]

14. There's no O in arabic...

So it can't be Usamma... :silly:


And remember - you cant have Usamma without the USA

[bearfartinthewoods]

20. or a problem with people running their own country?

the headscarf thing is the decision of the elected representatives of the french people...freely elected. it's their country and their decision.

jeezus sometimes i wonder......

[Kellanved]

3. pardon?

The victims of these terroristic attacks are usually not the leaders responsible for the offending law/action. In the Spanish attacks you can be pretty sure that most of the victims were opponents of the Iraq war.

So you are telling me that you would not feel sorry for innocent victims, just because you disagree with a policy of the conservative French government?

[Florida_Geek]

8. The French Sheep in this case supported the

ban.

[Kellanved]

10. you amaze me

Do you believe that polls are always correct? Is it your impression that with, say 60% approval polled for a law, every person supports the law to 60% ?
Do you believe that terrorists wouldn't just use the next best reason, without such a law?

[demdave]

5. You support terrorism as a method to change a school uniform law???

So terrorism is an option in your mind for how small of a law that you don't support? Speed limits too high on your side street....bomb them. You live in a dry (or wet) alcohol community.....fire bomb a school.

You amaze me.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[Mike Daniels]

33. I don't notice any Christian or Jewish groups making the same threats

All obvious religious apparel was banned. Jewish skullcaps (sorry, I don't know the technical term), crosses, etc.

It's threats like these that show these groups to be the extremist nutjobs that they are and any killing that is committed by this group is that group's fault and their fault alone.

[Roaming]

38. Sorry, but IMO there is NO EXCUSE for any kind of terrorism...

France may have some crappy laws but that doesn't give any group the right to bomb innocent people.

[Neecy]

44. it's not that simple

I also thought that the headscarf ban was disruptive to a citizen's right to practice his or her religion, but now at least I'm trying to see all sides of the issue.

Start by reading this months' Vanity Fair - there's a lengthy article about the ban that might open your eyes a bit. At the very least, it's a complicated issue that has far deeper implications than simply banning religious symbols in public schools, such as being a starting point in bringing women in the Muslim community under the protection of French law (which, in many ways, they currently are not - as in the case of forced marriage).

The issues underlying the ban are ones that the French people are going to have to work out, hopefully in cooperation with the Muslim community and not in opposition. I agree that this probably wasn't handled particularly well. But if we had the same issues in the United States - a signicant percentage of the population being Muslim who wanted to live under Islamic law vs. American law, a rise in anti-Semitic violence against American Jews, civil rights issues involving women - well, we'd be pretty hard-pressed to come up with answers, too. And our record on race relations shows we probably would screw it up.

[cprise]

4. Oh well

If Muslim extremists think they'll gain from a combination of Political Correctness and terrorism in France, they are quite mistaken.

The French public will be all too happy to witness a demonstration of what happens to immigrants who refuse to make concessions to secular society, and then follow that with threats. Christians don't get away with it, so why should anyone else.

[Florida_Geek]

9. It was the Christians against Muslim

School GIRLS

[cprise]

22. No it wasn't

And if French Christians are so mendacious and powerful, who was against who when ostentatious Christian symbols were banned in public schools?

[PsychoDad]

13. no.... this just can't be!

IIRC, I remember being told how most of the French Muslims supported this ban- nay looked forward to it with joy.. I remember how I heard that this ban would save French democracy from the Islamic threat posed by young women in the militant garb of hijab.

I remember hearing that this ban would make France, and the whole of europe a safer place.

Malcolm X once said something about chickens comming home to roost at the end of the day.

[fujiyama]

25. Chickens coming home to roost?

Do you support terrorism as a means to demonstrate against a law?

Banning headscarves is NOT killing anyone. They are preserving their secular society. While I don't believe the law makes much sense, they have every right to ban religious symbols in classrooms.

Jews can't wear yarmulkes and skullcaps. I don't hear them threatening the French govt. over that.

[PsychoDad]

31. No....

I don't support terrorism in the sense of attacking with intent to harm, maim, or kill innocent targets of opportunity. I do support the right of French Muslims to protest with all means available, such as civil disobedience and social disruption.

And you are correct,
"Jews can't wear yarmulkes and skullcaps. I don't hear them threatening the French govt. over that"

I am surprised that we have yet to hear a cry of anti-semitism from the global Jewish community at what is clearly an affront to their religious customs. I suspect French Jews are being quiet because of the rampant anti-semitisim currently in France and other parts of europe... Still, I wonder why American Jews are not vocal on this subject.

As for brother Malcom's quote, there are many here that predicted that this xenophobic action by the French government would only serve to motivate and empower the more extreme factions. Although this group seems to be based in Chechnya... a bit far from France.

Peace

[PsychoDad]

15. THREATS made by -A- Muslim group

noticed there was no more mention of which group this was.

[Kellanved]

18. apparently a group named "commando Mosvar Barayev "

With links to Chechnya.




http://www.leparisien.fr/home/info/faitjour/article.htm?articleid=240937338

[PsychoDad]

30. Sounds like...

They are a bit far from home.. Or are they known to be international?
Are they accused of any actions outside of Chechnya?

[Kellanved]

36. Their name is a link to the Moscow opera hostage taking

And France stopped one Chechnya based terrorist group before - as of now it is unknown, if there is a connection.

[Aidoneus]

41. this is not a real unit

Very likely a propaganda invention; I have read that the French authorities have admitted that it is likely a provocation. I saw the full version of the memo, the wording does not suggest a Muslim hand and they did not even spell Movsar's name correctly.

Whether this is related or not--a captured Russian FSB officer has told Chechen intelligence units that there are plans for acts by FSB "terrorist" detachments to be falsely blamed on Chechens. They encourage French vigilance to prevent these from occuring.

[Kellanved]

42. yes - I've posted an article about this

see below in this thread. :hi:

[dArKeR]

21. I declare a ban on ties, high heeled shoes and paint of the face. What use

are they?

[cprise]

23. For all present and future keyword searchers--

...let this thread serve as a prime exmaple of how post-modernism and PC have totally f*cked-up the American Left.

[fujiyama]

26. I agree...

I'm tired of tolerating psycho religious extremists because they are of a "different culture". I cut no slack for Christian fundies in the US. Why should I do any different for Muslim fundies?

Of course, considering many believe in MIHOP and that the Twin Towers were brought down by remote control... :eyes:

[Almost_there]

27. Perhaps we are forgetting something...

I am just thinking out loud, but, are we assuming terrorists to be rational by our standards, or theirs? I mean, worst case scenario on this thread is France is attacked, Al Qaida claims responsibility and lays blame because of the head scarf ban.

What then? Seriously. Does France say "whoops! Head scarves are now 'OK', but, since we haven't gotten bombed by the Vatican, crosses are still out." Or, will they change because of the threat from some groups that may or may not be Al Qaida, with the resolve to back the threats up? Remember, on one of Al Qaida's recent tapes they mentioned the head scarf thing, more as a side bar in the typical rant against everyone.

Also, I think calling a Christian fundamentalist and a Muslim fundamentalist out on the issue is fine, but, Muslim terrorists are a new breed altogether. As out there as Jerry Falwell might be, I can't recall the last time he flew a plane into a building or strapped a bomb to his chest. Different situation, I know, but, I cannot be intellectually honest and compare someone that sheds innocent blood to make a point, or change a policy in the name of God to someone who gets up and rants and raves about homusexshuals and the evils of fornicatin'.

Perhaps I am opening myself up for flames here, but, let's compare apples to apples. Fundies are fun to make fun of, it is fun to see the veins in their forhead go boomboomboom, whereas I don't think I'd like to be in a room with UBL, I think he'd just as soon slit my throat, your throat, Kerry's throat or Bush's throat and do it in the name of a merciful and kind God.

~Almost

[PsychoDad]

35. Little crosses are still in....

Little headscarves are still out.

[cprise]

43. I don't think so

You are forgetting that France has long experience with terrorism from Muslim groups. The latter is not "a new breed altogether", they are human beings with negative qualities that authorities in the US refuse to recognize in themselves.

The difference between UBL and the fundies in my own family is that the latter want to inflict death with the most impersonal means possible. They differ in what style seems honorable to them, and even that may not differ for long; rural religious paramilitaries in this country consider themselves experts on "urban warfare".

Oh, and France hasn't changed the headscarf ban because of the Madrid bombing. They will be going about their business long after our Tim McVeighs have fond their excuse to take this country down.

[fujiyama]

28. Well now you've got...

business people, strippers, and football fans after ya! ;-)

[PsychoDad]

32. Here, here!

And hair styles. I find many of them eletist and disruptive. And Christian TV Fundi's use them to promote their agenda...

Ban them!

[Spentastic]

29. This is very dangerous

If indeed it is "muslims" making these threats they should be aware of the consequences of their actions.

A country with a strongly held secular tradition will not back down under the very threats that their secularism is designed to avoid. These pronouncements will further marginalise the Muslim community. If an attack occurs on the basis of the "headscarf ban" (which it isn't by the way) you can fully expect retribution against the Muslim community.

Killing people because you are not allowed to wear a headscarf would strike most people as entirely irrational and evil. It doesn't exactly paint Islam in a good light either.

[PsychoDad]

34. Sure they're Muslims...

Not all muslims, or even most Muslims...they are some Muslims. Some Muslims with the wrong Ideas and aproaches.

You stated, "Killing people because you are not allowed to wear a headscarf would strike most people as entirely irrational and evil. It doesn't exactly paint Islam in a good light either."

Although wars have been fought over the right to religious freedom, I don't advocate killing anyone, but I do advocate the right of my French brothers and sisters to resist and use civil disobedeance and social disruption to voice their outrage.

But the truth is...no matter what they do, it will be painted in the western media as threats and terrorism. There is a Crusade on after all, and the masses must be fed their daily propaganda.

[toopers]

40. I am sure we can expect a lot more of this.

After what happened in Spain, there is the perception that acts of terrorism will sway opinions and influence government policy.

[Kellanved]

39. France Minister: Terror Threat Not Typical

A letter from a previously unknown Islamic group threatening attacks for France's ban on Muslim headscarves does not resemble typical extremist correspondence, the interior minister said Wednesday.
...
``The specialized services believe that the phrasing does not correspond to the rhythm typically used by extremists in these kinds of messages,'' Sarkozy said without elaborating.

The message was signed by ``Commando Mosvar Barayev,'' the Justice Ministry said. It was a possible reference to the Chechen rebel killed at the end of a hostage taking raid on a Moscow theater in October 2002. The letter misspelled Barayev's first name, which was Movsar.
...
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V7067.AP-France-Islamic-.html

[rinsd]

46. Yeah I saw that....

Between this previously unknown group and the letter asking for negotiation from the group that claimed credit for the blackouts last year, you need a scorecard to keep up with whose doing the threatening and who the actual threats are.