Venezuela Owes $12 Billion for Seizures, Chamber Says

[Joanne98]

Source: Bloomberg


March 3 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela owes $12 billion to more than 20 companies that belong to the Venezuela-U.S. Chamber of Commerce for assets the government seized over the past three years, chamber President Carlos Henrique Blohm said.

The assets of 28 members of the chamber, including nine companies that provided oil service work for state oil producer Petroleos de Venezuela SA, have been nationalized Blohm said. Of the nationalized companies, 22 have received no response from the government to their requests for compensation, he said. Four companies have been paid, and two have received partial compensation, Blohm said.

“PDVSA is very behind in paying off debts to some of our members,” Blohm said in an interview, declining to name any of the companies that are owed money for compensation.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has nationalized parts of the country’s oil, cement, metals and utilities industries as he extends the role of the state in the economy to create what he calls “21st century socialism.” U.S. oil companies Exxon Mobil Corp. and ConocoPhillips, whose assets were taken in 2007, are involved in arbitration proceedings against the South American country.


Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aWjdbN7hGcc0

---

I didn't know there was a Venezuela-U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

[LiberalFighter]

1. If it involves the US Chamber of Commerce. I say screw them!!

[WriteDown]

5. Not exactly. This is them

http://www.venamcham.org/ Nationalizing without compensation is sure to earn a lot of foreign investment.

[starroute]

22. All the AmCham groups are tied to the US Chamber

http://www.uschamber.com/international/directory/default

The American Chambers of Commerce Abroad (AmChams) advance the interests of American business overseas. They are voluntary associations of American companies and individuals doing business in a particular country, as well as firms and individuals of that country who operate in the United States. Currently, 113 AmChams in 100 countries are affiliated with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

AmChams pursue trade policy initiatives, make available publications and services, and sponsor a variety of business development programs. Through four regional organizations in Asia, Europe, the Gulf Countries, and Latin America/the Caribbean, the AmChams represent the concerns and interests of the business community at the highest levels of government and business in trade policy development.

[Wilms]

23. Yep. And one of the authors of the article may be tied to the neocon FDD.

Joshua Goodman, Manager, Research, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Could be two different people.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Foundation_for_the_Defense_of_Democracies

[WriteDown]

25. That's why I said "not exactly." nt

[DJ13]

2. If the CoC is upset, then its all good

[WriteDown]

6. See post 5. nt

[classysassy]

3. Robin Hood

It seem Chavez is robbing the hoods and giving it to the poor.

[proteus_lives]

7. Really?

:rofl:

[Mithreal]

8. Yes, really. Do you do anything else?

[warm regards]

51. You really should have your vision checked.

:)

[Rapier09]

4. Someone needs to tell Goldman

There is money to be made in Venezuela.

That would take care of 2 problems.

[liberation]

9. When someone steals from a thief... is it really stealing?

Maybe so, but does the thief have any right to scream that he's been robbed?

[Laplase]

10. Amen to that...

Hugo is a hero in my eyes. He doesn't owe those companies shit. This man does more to stand up to big business than anyone here in the United States. Go Hugo!!!!!

[rug]

11. Let them sue.

[EFerrari]

12. LOL! It's a South Florida front group. Our USAID tax dollars at work!

http://www.venezuelanchamber.org/

:rofl:

[WriteDown]

15. Interesting. The old justification of the Chavistas was that these companies were paid FMV..

for their seizure. Now the new justification is "they deserve to not be reimbursed."

[wayne fontes]

16. That's not the same organization.

Try clicking the link from the Bloomberg story. Different URL, different organization name, one site is in Spanish and the other in English.

Do you still think the one you linked is a front group?

[EFerrari]

33. You know, you're right. The front group I linked to is in South Florida

and it looks like these people are in Venezuela.

It's too late tonight but now I'm really curious about how they articulate. Thanks for pointing this out.

ETA: Judi Lynn has beat me with some good stuff here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4292204&mesg_id=4292521

[dipsydoodle]

18. Their name has become before

on similar issues. Yes - :rofl:

[The Magistrate]

13. My Heart Bleeds, Ma'am....

"Property is theft."

[protocol rv]

20. Please explain?

I don't understand the comment "property is theft"

[Judi Lynn]

21. Spend some time trying to think about it. n/t

[DissedByBush]

26. Sounds self-contradictory

To even have the negative concept of theft you first need to hold the concept of property in a positive regard.

If you hold no regard for property, then the concept of theft is meaningless.

If the statement does denounce property, then it invalidates itself.

[bemildred]

28. Not really.

The "owner" who is stolen from can be some collective entity, like a corporation, or the government, or the public. In the case here, "property is theft" means that private property is the taking for private use of what was once the common legacy of all, i.e. the conversion for private benefit of "the commons".

[DissedByBush]

46. If it is in the commons

Then it wasn't really property in the first place.

In other words, say the commons 'property' is a lake. While it is in the commons nobody owns it. When it belongs to all it is the property of none. This is the pure anarchist or communist ideal, the elimination of property.

At the moment I gain an exclusive right over that lake, then it becomes property.

At that time it is subject to theft, such as through nationalization without adequate compensation (paging Mr. Chavez).

I kind of see what you are trying to say, but "property is theft" doesn't work to describe it.

Especially since there is pretty much no way a person can simply seize part of the commons to turn it into private property without the consent of the people. What is freely given cannot be theft.

[The Magistrate]

49. And How, Sir, Do You Imagine Exclusive Use 'Of That Lake' Is Actually Gained?

In all instances, some judicious mix of force and fraud is required....

[bemildred]

53. Good morning Sir.

Nice to see you.

[DissedByBush]

69. By the consent of the people

No force or fraud required.

Perhaps the lake is suffering from the tragedy of the commons and the people feel a private owner would better take care of it.

Perhaps the people need money for another desired project and one of them is willing to trade his money for the exclusive use of the lake.

Perhaps it is an unpopulated area and the people are encouraging people to move there, allowing anyone to stake claim to resources.

[The Magistrate]

74. You Do, Sir, Understand The Depth Of Nonesense You Have Emmitted Here....

Though the 'examples' you attempt hardly deserve serious engagement, let us pretend, at least, to treat them seriously, if only for the sake of humor in the dead of night.

The second is most revealing of the lack of thought you have put into this. No system of money has ever existed in human societies prior to the ownership of all real estate within a government's bounds by some owner, whether an individual or a clan. The idea that a single individual could have sufficient resources to 'purchase' a major element of the local economy, without already being in a domnant position over that community, is laughable.

Your first suggests a simple ideological bias, and omits completely to engage how one individual becomes the chosen of the community to exercise exclusive rights over a major economic resource. This individual's exclusive rights over the resource will always bring him or her greater benefit than any benefit that can accrue to the community from that individual's ownership rights over this resource, and the power over the resource will eventually, invariably, be used to the disadvantage of many community members.

Your third founders on some simple general facts. Unpopulated areas that are inhabitable by people are damned scarce, to put it mildly, and have been for long before complex cultures featuring individual ownership of large economic resources came into being; this is particularly true of well watered tracts featuring lakes. If such an area is 'uninhabited', one of two things are most likely going on: either a population employing hunter-gatherer economics, which support a sparser population generally inhabits the region, and is confonted by a population employing agriculture, and hence haviing much greater population density, or the original inhabitants have been killed off or driven off or herded off for sale as chattle by a conqueror. The only other possibility is that there has been a great dying off of epidemic disease, such that lineages have collapsed and title, even, been lost.

No, Sir, you have done nothing whatever to refute the primacy of force and fraud in judicious mix as the origin of exclusive rights to the economic resources of communities coming into private hands.

[bemildred]

54. You assume "property" equates to "private property".

In other words you assume what you conclude, a very useful form of argument, which unfortunately fails as logic.

[DissedByBush]

70. That makes it even more absurd

If you consider the commons to be property, then "property is theft" gets even funnier.

Everyone is stealing from everyone else by there being a commons.

[bemildred]

73. As I said, "it fails as logic". nt

[bemildred]

24. Google is your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft!

[The Magistrate]

48. Thank You, My Friend

[DissedByBush]

14. I heard recently Chavez needed much investment and experience

From foreign companies in order to properly utilize the oil resources as he's hurting from the low price of oil.

Good luck doing that Chavez if you stole from the previous companies crazy enough to deal with you.

[protocol rv]

19. Multinationals are waiting for certain rule changes in Venezuela

Primarily they want international arbitration, to protect their investments. This would allow them to take their case to an outside arbitrator or court to decide damages, should Venezuela break agreements, nationalize their properties, or otherwise take from them in breach of contract. This is one reason why there's so little foreign investment taking place in Venezuela.

[Judi Lynn]

17. Never heard of them either. Isn't this odd?

http://nt1.ggpht.com.nyud.net:8090/news/tbn/9S2NVVUTdh1b9M/6.jpg

(google translation)
Venamcham said Venezuela was ranked 174 on economic performance

The Venezuelan American Chamber of Commerce and Industry Venamcham, presented the report of Economic Freedom 2010 that reflects the classification of 183 countries worldwide according to their economic performance. James Robert, an expert at the Heritage Foundation, said that Venezuela has had a decrease placing at number 174, by the policies pursued by the national government against the principles of economic freedom.

Robert James said "Eight of the ten indicators are lower for Venezuela, especially regarding the protection of real property, intellectual and all, is already very low.

Santos Michelena's lawyer, said the Act "dpabis" is repressive and does not provide local security because there is too much regulation by the state and away from investment.

Michelena said "Pretend and go beyond the cost structure and get say on the idea of a price to keep things I think that does not respond to a reality and is not beneficial."Hong Kong ranked first in the freedom index saved by the relationship between the opportunities of people and prosperity, offering economic openness, regulatory efficiency, rule of law and competitiveness.

http://noticiero.venevision.net/index_not.asp?id_noticia=20100302003602&id_seccion=02

It's so hard to imagine how anyone would believe these guys are entirely hard-right political scums, isn't it?

[bitchkitty]

30. The Heritage Foundation - they make plates, don't they?

And commemorative coins and shit like that? ;)

[EFerrari]

35. LOL

:rofl:

[Happy Hippy]

27. Chavez is a joke.

Earth quake weapons, nationalization of grocery stores, lifetime presidency, firing of common employees who didn't tow the political line from government owned companies, supporter of Iran, blacklisting citizens who protested against him - no government jobs, national ids, or passports, etc, nationalization of entire industries, etc.

It's hard to take him seriously. I do not think he is the role model American liberals should be seeking. Chavez also looks like a pig. At least he isn't starving like the rest of his country will be when we kick our oil addiction.

[UTUSN]

29. New around these parts, ain't cha?11 I'm staying out of it. Welcome to DU!1 n/t

[bitchkitty]

32. Probably not so new. n/t

[Happy Hippy]

36. Thanks

Thanks for the welcome. I guess your telling me it isn't a popular thing to criticize Chavez's actions here. I hope no one takes offense to my post. I have a few IRL friends who are die hard supporters of Chavez. The last rally I was at in May was full of American supporters of Chavez too.
I don't really understand it though. My only point is that I don't think he is a good role model for American progressives.

I try to stay out of the politics of other nations - especially those in Latin America - citing our obvious history of political and economic abuse in the region. Just to reiterate, I don't think he is a good "political role model".

[EFerrari]

38. Fact based criticism is welcome. The thing is, there is so much bs

about Chavez and Venezuela and other leftist leaders in Latin America, we don't tend to get around to facts very often and it gets old to simply keep debunking the media smears.

[Dreamer Tatum]

72. Just a note: "LOL" does not equal "debunking". Also...

...assailing the source <> debunking.

Furthermore, links to your pet websites <> debunking.

[bitchkitty]

31. "looks like a pig"

Do you hate all overweight people, or just brown overweight people?

Not so happy a hippie, it seems.

[Happy Hippy]

39. Yes I am happy.

No, I do not hate anyone, regardless of weight, race, ethnicity, religion, nationality, sexual preference, class membership, etc. Citing Chavez's comments about our president, I doubt he can say the same. See post #36 for a better explanation of the post you responded to.

Chavez has the anthropomorphic attributes of a pig - nothing more meant by my comment.

[EFerrari]

42. Projection is so endlessly fascinating. Say more about Chavez.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

47. Did it ever occur to you this poster might just be a writer, period?

You're only embarrassing yourself.

[EFerrari]

50. So your response is to try to smear me and not to prove your case.

How lame is that.

[bemildred]

55. Dang, you sound like one of those pesky "internet activists".

Tsk tsk tsk ...

[EFerrari]

56. Speakung of activists, did you see that Carlos won the Sun Sentinel thingy?

He must be really hung over today. :)

[bemildred]

57. Yah, this "internet activist" stuff is "hard work"(*).

* -- http://quotations.about.com/od/georgewbush/a/BushHardWork.htm

[PacerLJ35]

58. Ab alio spectes alteri quod feceris

Ah, yes, much like the oft-used "you're a government/military plant" that's been used against me when I post my observations/opinions. Welcome to the club.

[EFerrari]

61. You don't know the half of it.

lol

[Happy Hippy]

65. Pot meet kettle.

Coming from someone who believes every news source, journalist, and blogger is a "CIA plant" I find your response hilarious. It's clear that for whatever reason you have a vested interest, hobby or otherwise, in defending Chavez. You are a biased source. You wildly defend Chavez all over the internet - Google proves this to be true. Any ounce of criticism towards Chavez and internet super hero EFerrari pops up and labels the post or article a CIA plant. If someone dare point this out - their post gets deleted - see my post #45 for example.

[EFerrari]

66. Are you stocking me??!!1

lol

[bitchkitty]

52. Your comment was offensive.

As offensive as it would have been if you'd called him a racial name.

Your pedal-backwards statement that you meant he had the anthropomorphic attributes of a pig is ridiculous. Fail, hippie.

[PacerLJ35]

59. You can't pick and choose

Some of these very same people crying about being "smeared" or otherwise maligned have been quite active in employing those very same tactics in past threads. I find it amusing, to say the least.

[bitchkitty]

68. Whatever floats your amusement boat.

I am not amused by anti-large people jokes, and don't drag me into your persecution complex.

If your opinions cause you to be rejected, maybe you should reexamine your opinions.

[EFerrari]

34. It's hard to take you seriously when what you think you know about Chavez

seems to be so muddled.

The Earth quake weapon was not Chavez but the Russian navy.

There is no "lifetime" presidency.

There is no evidence of political persecutions or prosecutions Can you provide some?

The food security of the poorest Venezuelans has IMPROVED under Chavez, not the other way around.

And good luck to us with that addiction. :)

[Happy Hippy]

40. Google....

I'll be happy to refer you to Google. There is a wide variety of independent sources documenting the abuses of the Chavez regime. Something tells me that if it doesn't come from an i heart chavez Wordpress blog you will refuse to consider it a valid source. I have friends who share your pro-Chavez sentiment, so I know exactly how the debate process works.

I do not consider myself pro or anti-Chavez. I don't think we have any business supporting or opposing political factions in Venezuela. It's none of our business. Chavez's oppressive actions as a dictator are as obvious as the sky is blue.

-Happy Hippy

[EFerrari]

41. Google? You're joking, right?

LOL

[Happy Hippy]

43. Yes? Google.

Google is a very popular search engine. http://www.google.com

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enrique]

37. you pass the RW radio pop quiz

you nailed ALL of the anti-Chavez points.

Now, tell us a few things about Obama.

[Cal Carpenter]

63. ROFL

You are a deliberate caricature, I hope.

Otherwise, even more ROFL.

[PacerLJ35]

60. Outstanding...yet another Hugo thread to watch so-called "liberals" defend another idiot politician

Is it that easy? Do I only have to say I'm working for the poor in order to gain power, consolidate it, and then run out or bar any political opposition while simultaneously stating I'm "progressive"?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...if a politician did the things Hugo does in this country, we'd all be calling for impeachment.

[EFerrari]

62. That's funny. HIllary said about the same thing yesterday in Brazil

Are you two related? :)

ETA: Brazil.

[PacerLJ35]

80. Yes, I'm Hillary posting here in disguise. You've found me out.

[Cal Carpenter]

64. Actually

All over this site we see people saying that we should limit the power of corporations, limit their obscene profits, tax them more, regulate them more, and so forth.

Chavez is a hell of a lot closer to doing those things than we are in this country. What people find so threatening is the international market implications of what he does - but what choice does he have? Capital doesn't pay attention to manmade boundaries...

Not to mention all the ways lives of the poor and the indigenous in Venezuela have improved under Chavez (who has been democratically elected, btw) including education, health care, and so forth. But I feel confident that you already know that Chavez is waaay more than just rhetoric even though you imply otherwise.

[bitchkitty]

67. LOL n/t

[fascisthunter]

71. so-called as in yourself?

[Judi Lynn]

75. Wow, you really bring back the memories of another time, all right.

ACLU Sues Tampa for Violating Protestors' Free Speech Rights at Bush Rally
E-mail ShareLinkedInDiggFacebookMixxYahoo! Buzz"Twitter"StumbleUponTechnoratiRedditPermalinkPrint November 1, 2002
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

TAMPA, FL - The Tampa Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida today filed a federal lawsuit against Tampa officials for civil rights violations stemming from the wrongful arrest of two grandmothers and a gay activist during a rally organized last year for President George W. Bush and Florida Governor Jeb Bush.

"We weren't exactly 20-year-old rabble rousers," said Jan Lentz, a grandmother who carried an "Investigate Florida Votergate" sign demanding an investigation into Florida's 2000 election fiasco.

Local and federal law enforcement officers forcibly removed Lentz from the rally in handcuffs. "Our intention was not to make any trouble," Lentz said. "We came down there to register our disapproval of the President in a totally peaceful way, but instead we were treated like criminals."

The case arose on June 4, 2001, when Lentz, Mauricio Rosas and Sonja Haught -- one carrying a sign that said "Boo!" -- arrived with tickets in hand at the security checkpoint at Legend's Field, the stadium selected as the rally site. Shortly after entering the stadium, they were approached by security personnel who demanded, "Lose the sign and you can stay." Security personnel at no point asked other rally attendees to remove their signs, which for the most part were favorable of the President and Governor, the ACLU said in legal papers.

When the three protestors declined to give up their signs, they were handcuffed and led down a tunnel to the basement of the stadium, where they were held for several hours.

"I wanted the President to see my message," said Mauricio Rosas, a gay activist who attended the rally to protest President Bush's refusal to sign a proclamation acknowledging June as Gay Pride Month. "We had a right to be there to protest in a peaceful and respectful way."

According to the ACLU's lawsuit, the police officers removing the protestors were overly aggressive. The officer removing Lentz from the field used Lentz's body as a shield to force her way through the crowd. In doing so, Lentz was pushed onto an 81-year-old man. The man suffered lacerations to his head and other injuries requiring medical treatment.

Prior to being released, Lentz, Rosas and Haught were charged with trespassing and ordered to appear in court. Haught received an additional charge of disorderly conduct. After being held, they were escorted back to their cars and told not to return. The criminal charges against the three were eventually dropped.

"The protestors were entitled -- just like the hundreds of other people at the rally -- to lawfully exercise their free speech rights, but they were arrested in an attempt to silence them and shield the government from criticism, " said ACLU cooperating attorney W.F. "Casey" Ebsary, Jr. of Tampa.

http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-sues-tampa-violating-protestors-free-speech-rights-bush-rally

~~~~~~`
Bush's Top Aides Exposed an Undercover CIA Agent To Silence Critics
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#spy

ETC.

The rest of us started learning about _{George W. Bush's} hideous abuses toward critics long, LONG, LONG ago.

If any newspapers or tv stations had dared participate in the build-up to a coup, and deliberately deceived the population about what had happened they themselves would have been in prison in a heartbeat. There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever on that.

And the coup participants who plotted the armed kidnapping of Hugo Chavez, the forgery of his "resignation letter", the attempt to destroy the elected government immediately, and sent out the troops to run down his administration officials: were they imprisoned? Of fraking course not.

You're not fooling anyone here. We were all very aware of what has been happening every day. We also had a D.U. member living in Caracas at the time who was keeping us all informed during every day and night as he watched this filthy coup unfold.

[Bo]

76. The disaster which is Chavez is a running joke in South America

...nobody South of the Border likes this clown and I travel all over and talk to people constantly. He has destroyed Venezuela.

[conspirator]

77. The Chamber of Crooks can lickus my dickus nt

[Judi Lynn]

79. They ONLY favor politicians who put personal profit before the citizens. Sleazy, greedy scums. n/t

[KamaAina]

81. Adventures in Headline Writing

I honestly thought this had something to do with epilepsy!!