The opportunity Geert Wilders has waited for

[pampango]

Source: BBC

A party that calls Islam a backward religion, wants a ban on headscarves in public life and has compared the Koran to Hitler's Mein Kampf has made major gains in local elections in the Netherlands.

Geert Wilders' Freedom Party (PVV) has become the biggest party in the medium-sized city of Almere, and the second biggest in the political capital of the Netherlands, The Hague.

Mr Wilders was visibly buoyed by the results, but was also combative in his reaction, and called the results the first step in the upcoming campaign for parliamentary elections. "The national campaign begins today. Today, in Almere and The Hague, tomorrow in all of the Netherlands… On 9 June, we'll conquer the Netherlands," he said.

Other parties which did well were the centre-right D66 and the left-wing Green Left party - the two parties that have been most vocal against Geert Wilders.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8549155.stm

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The only silver lining that I can see is that the left-wing Green Left party, which vocally opposes the anti-immigrant, anti-Islam Wilders, also did well in the election.

[naaman fletcher]

1. Islam is anti-liberal

While Wilders is a right-wing jerk all around, Pim Fortuyn was a good man. He was a liberal man who did not want to regress into middle-ages style feudalism.

This is what is wrong with liberalism today. We once were proud to stand for our belief in the modern secular state, and liberalizing humanity. Today, most who call themselves liberal have zero strength of conviction, and are unwilling to proclaim that, yes, modern western liberalism is superior to middle-ages style feudalism and the the sexism and homophobia of Islam.

I wish Fortuyn was never killed so that he could have carried on this message without the other right wing baggage of Wilders.

[iandhr]

2. Thank you

I will not deny that we have faults but we are FAR superior to those who stone women for not wearing head scarfs

[Alameda]

8. "we"....????

............I don't know who or what "we" you refer to. Is it the "we" that harvested "strange fruit"....or the "we" that gave the Indians smallpox infested blankets.....There are good and bad every group....I'd be careful about painting a whole people with such broad strokes.
I do know, I'm not one of your "we" I'm one of "them".

[naaman fletcher]

12. If you don't want to be one of the "we"

that is opposed to treating women as 3rd class citizens, is opposed to the idea of a secular state, is opposed to stoning as a form of punishment, and is opposed to killing homosexuals, by all means don't identify with us.

PS: nobody gave smallpox blankets to indians:


The May 2006 report by the Investigative Committee of the Standing Committee on Research Misconduct at the University of Colorado corroborated Churchill's critics. The committee concluded that for over a period of 10 years, Churchill consistently falsified his sources and fabricated claims regarding the Fort Clark epidemic. The committee criticized Churchill for failing to recognize and correct his errors, and for his insistence that he intends to republish his indictment of genocide in the future without substantive changes. The committee also criticized Churchill for answering his critics with ad hominem attacks instead of reason and evidence.
Additionally, the committee found Churchill guilty of serious research misconduct in his claims that John Smith initiated a smallpox epidemic against Wampanoag Indians when he visited New England in 1614. The committee found that the source Churchill cited for his claim (Manitou and Providence: Europeans, Indians, and the Making of New England, 1500–1643 by Neal Salisbury) actually gave evidence contrary to his claim, namely that Smith viewed the Indians as a potential source of labor to be exploited militarily (rather than exterminated) and that the epidemic did not break out until at least eighteen months after Smith had left the area. Based on these and other inconsistencies, the committee determined that Churchill had fabricated this event and cited sources in a misleading way.<22>

[pampango]

4. The GreenLeft Party, that most directly opposes Wilders, is hardly in favor of regressing to

the Middle Ages.

"The party combines green with left-wing ideals. The core ideals of GreenLeft are codified in the party's program of principles (called "Uitgangspunten van GroenLinkse Politiek"). The party explicitly places itself in the tradition of leftwing parties that are freedom loving. Four principles form the guiding principles of the party

1. the democratic rechtsstaat (rule of law), which ensures individual freedom and equal political rights;
2. an ecological balance, in the knowledge that natural resources are limited;
3. a just distribution of power, knowledge, property, labour and income, within the Netherlands, but also on a world scale;
4. a resistance to exploitation and opposition to the suppression of groups and peoples."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GreenLeft#Ideology_and_Issues

I submit that they have a better approach to handling immigration and cultural assimilation issues than does the Freedom Party and Wilders.

[naaman fletcher]

6. The green party...

Suffers from the decline of moral certainty about liberalism, and is unwilling to speak the truth: Islam is anti-liberal, and with it's spread is spread sexism, homophobia, and economic stagnation.

It's simply fact. Liberalism was once proud to proclaim it's superiority, being rooted as it is in the emancipation of the masses. Now we cower and hide as backwards feudalists stone people and treat women as mules.

[pampango]

13. 4. "a resistance to exploitation and opposition to the suppression of groups and peoples."

It seems to me that the GreenLeft Party does not suffer from a "decline of moral certainty" and favors "the emancipation of the masses".

Your rhetoric sounds like Wilders: "We're going to take the Netherlands back from the leftist elite that coddles criminals and supports Islamization," said Wilders, who campaigned in Almere for banning Muslim women from wearing headscarves in public."

You: "The Green Party (s)uffers from the decline of moral certainty about liberalism, and is unwilling to speak the truth ... Now we cower and hide ..."

Sounds like you want the likes of Wilders' Freedom party to ride to the rescue of Western civilization who are plagued with liberal political parties which suffer from a decline in moral certainty and are unwilling to speak the truth."

[naaman fletcher]

16. saying it and doing it are two different things.

As to Wilders, I dotn't like him. I like Pim Fortuyn. It is too bad that after Fortuyn's death it had to be a right-winger to take up his message. The left is AWOL.

[Alameda]

5. Excuse me? And you know what about Islam?

Islam is not sexist or homophobic....there are some (too many sexist and homophobic Muslims, as there are sexist and homophobic people in secular, atheist and other belief systems. Your knowledge is very superficial and limited. Psst...you are showing your own lack of knowledge and narrow mindedness.

[naaman fletcher]

7. BS..

Everyone Islam spreads it brings with it its 3rd class citizenship for women.

[pampango]

10. Stereotype Muslims much. I'm sure we all know Muslim women who will smack you if

you call them third class.

[naaman fletcher]

11. Yes, I do sterotype when it fits

And it does fit, and it's the muslims who treat their women as 3rd class citizens. I'm sure it's also the case that women 200 years ago in Britian might have smacked you for the same thing, nevertheless it was true.

You'd probably be upset in a country ruled by Pat Robertson types (as would I), yet you won't pass judgement on people who people who still use stoning as a method of punishment.

And no, of course not all muslims are that way. In fact, my girlfriend of many months (although we just broke up, but nevertheless are going on a trip together next week) is muslim. She is the first one to say who backwards Islam is, despite the fact that she still believes in the religion.

[cali]

24. true enough but

there are no secular nations where women are subjugated in the manner that they are in many Islamic nations.

[Ratty]

14. No different from Christianity

I have no doubt that if history were different - that the rich, successful west were Muslim and the poor, oppressed Middle East had become Christian - that we would today be facing the same problems of terrorism and the Middle East would still be oppressing women. You can find all sorts of horrible crap in the Bible and all sorts of horrible crap in the Koran. It's all in what parts you cling to, which parts you ignore. Islamic fanaticism arose from the history and culture of the Middle East, not from the Koran. Just as there are moderate, peaceful Christians, so too will you find the same in Islam. I'm not saying Islamic fanaticism isn't a problem that shouldn't be addressed. I'm not saying they aren't barbaric savages. I have a problem with using religion as a broad brush. Saying all terrorists are Muslim, therefore all Muslims are terrorists is a logical fallacy.

[naaman fletcher]

17. I don't approve of one religion more than another..

And you might be right that roles were reversed we would be doing what they do in the name of Christianity.

That is all irrelevant. What matters is here and now. Western secular liberalism vs. the middle ages.

[No Elephants]

22. I would not have assumed you are liberal.

BTW, liberals have plenty of strength of conviction. But more "proclaiming" is not the issue. We have to take ACTION, something many who post on message boards tend to miss.

[Metta]

3. The rise of fascism once again during hard times. Some people won't learn.

Happy karma.

[Romulox]

9. Is there any reason the OP isn't participating in any of the threads about Greece?

:shrug:

[pampango]

15. Shoot the messenger; ignore the message. (There are hundreds of threads I haven't posted to.)

;)

[Romulox]

18. So, no, there's no good reason you are avoiding the threads about the crisis in Greece

after spending the past several weeks advocating that the US emulate the European Union?

[pampango]

19. Not to participate in the hijacking of my own thread :) , but ...

I have posted to Greece threads. You and I have even exchanged posts about Greece's current troubles.

What does Greece have to do with the Netherlands' election? (OK, I'll admit that Wilders' far-right Freedom Party wants the Netherlands to withdraw from the EU and Greece's far-right Popular Orthodox Rally Party wants Greece to withdraw, so there may be a slight connection. ;) )

You know I'm a big supporter of the EU. It has an impressive history of peace, prosperity and progressive government. It is certainly not perfect. It slipped up big time when it admitted Greece without closely checking that their budget numbers were real. Greece wanted into the EU so badly that its politicians and military leaders "cooked the books" to make it look like they met the requirements set by the EU for admission. Now Greece and the EU are dealing with the effects of that.

Happy now? ;) (I suppose even though we're not talking about the Netherlands' election, this serves as a continuous kick for the thread.)

[Romulox]

20. So...you don't remember posting several "if the EU can admit Bulgaria, why can't the US form an NAU"

with it's poorer neighbors?" type threads in the weeks prior to the Greek meltdown?

"It slipped up big time when it admitted Greece without closely checking that their budget numbers were real. "

But again, didn't you deride those who warned about forming an North America Union with the US's impoverished (not to say corrupt!) neighbors to the south might have just such a consequence as people who failed to take note of the accomplishments of the EU?

I won't bother to search, because you must admit that you did!

I'd like you to understand that I fully respect your right to your own advocacy. But I cannot respect a person who cannot admit plain fact. And of course I can't ask you to change simply to earn my respect (which I suspect is of little value to you anyhow.) But I would suggest that being more forthright will ultimately earn you more support than simply "laying low" while waiting for ideologically inexpedient current events to pass! :hi:

[brooklynite]

21. But can he get the trash picked up?

These were local council races; not sure how much of PVV's traditional policy issues really come into play.

[No Elephants]

23. Conservatives co-operate to spread conservatism worldwide. It's a damn global cult at this point.