White House to Congress: Don't offend Turkey

[SpankMe]

Source: msnbc.com

WASHINGTON - The Obama administration is urging a House panel not to offend Turkey by declaring that the Ottoman-era killing of Armenians was genocide. But the committee chairman pressed ahead Thursday.

The administration stepped in despite a campaign promise by President Barack Obama to brand as genocide the killing of as many as 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman Turks.

The United States relies on Turkey as a key supply route for U.S. troops in Iraq and Turkey's troops serve in the U.S.-led coalition forces in Afghanistan. The United States also is pressing Turkey, which holds a rotating seat in the U.N. Security Council, to support sanctions against Iran, Turkey's neighbor.

Armenian American groups have for decades sought congressional affirmation of the killings as genocide. Historians estimate that up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I, an event widely viewed by scholars as the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey says the toll has been inflated and those killed were victims of civil war and unrest, not genocide. In April, Obama broke a campaign promise to brand the killings genocide in an annual White House statement on the day marking Armenian remembrance. Obama said that while he had not changed his personal views, he did not want to upset promising talks between Turkey and Armenia on improving relations and opening their border, sealed since 1993.


Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35705977/ns/world_news-europe/

---

We Democrats have become spineless. We need to have the balls to stick to our convictions and do what's right rather than bend to threats of other countries. I know Turkey is important strategically. But, all this caving in is worse for us in the long run.

[AllentownJake]

1. Yeah, not voting for this guy again

Don't give a fuck. He is morally bankrupt.

Can't even recognize the genoicide that inspired Hitler, because some Turks are going to be offended we acknowledge what their great grand parents did.

[EFerrari]

20. It's not just him. It's the whole structure, it's the water or something.

It's harder and harder and harder to keep up with news out of DC.

[saigon68]

34. Draft Dodger extraordinaire

[alarimer]

46. Some bloggers have taken to calling it Versailles because they are so out of touch.

I think it is an apt comparison. Washington seems to corrupt nearly everyone.

I'm starting to think term limits might be useful after all.

[No Elephants]

47. Three words: Senator Ted Kennedy.

Then again, "We may never see his like again."

I'd better give term limits another look myself.

[Enrique]

2. he was never firm on it

he waffled all through the campaign, if I remember correctly. I'm not even sure if they're correct to say he promised to support this.

[AllentownJake]

3. Could care less

Hitler looked at what happened in Armenia and decided he could get away with the Holocaust. That is history.

Morally bankrupt decision, you have to stand for, Something?

[mike_c]

8. I don't give a rat's buttocks about the precise phrases he used....

Killing 1.5 million people, mostly non-combatants, leaves quite a stain on history. It's hard not to notice.

[EFerrari]

21. That's fine and I agree but singling out one of these politicians

sort of misses the bigger or a bigger picture. Our government is hopelessly corrupt.

[jgraz]

10. And this is unlike every other issue how... ?

[AllentownJake]

11. +100

I agree genocide is wrong, however it is important to recognize our fine allies the Turks position...:rofl:

[Captain Hilts]

12. Yes, he did. But most candidates do, then renig when they get elected. He's not the first. nt

[No Elephants]

52. He's not the first, but it's not true that most candidates go back on many of their promises..

Those who do should be held accountable. Otherwise, we may as choose our Presidents by flip of a coin.

As just one example.

Poopy Bush broke his promise not to raise taxes. It was a dumb promise and he was correct and politically courageous to break it. But he got voted out and has never lived it down.

[DissedByBush]

15. He promised

http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/19/barack_obama_on_the_importance.php

"As a senator, I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide."

He lied.

[Wilms]

32. Obama on January 19, 2008 - "I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution"

"The facts are undeniable. An official policy that calls on diplomats to distort the historical facts is an untenable policy. As a senator, I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide."

More of a familiar pattern of behavior hiding behind the excuse of "moving forward."

http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/19/barack_obama_on_the_importance.php

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4293964&mesg_id=4294100

[No Elephants]

48. He was very firm on it. He actually used the words "firmly" and "forcefully."

Barack Obama on the Importance of US-Armenia Relations
| January 19, 2008
I am proud of my strong record on issues of concern to the one and a half million Americans of Armenian heritage in the United States. I warmly welcome the support of this vibrant and politically active community as we change how our government works here at home, and restore American leadership abroad.

I am a strong supporter of a U.S.-Armenian relationship that advances our common security and strengthens Armenian democracy. As President, I will maintain our assistance to Armenia, which has been a reliable partner in the fight against terrorism and extremism. I will promote Armenian security by seeking an end to the Turkish and Azerbaijani blockades, and by working for a lasting and durable settlement of the Nagorno Karabagh conflict that is agreeable to all parties, and based upon America's founding commitment to the principles of democracy and self determination. And my Administration will help foster Armenia's growth and development through expanded trade and targeted aid, and by strengthening the commercial, political, military, developmental, and cultural relationships between the U.S. and Armenian governments.

I also share with Armenian Americans – so many of whom are descended from genocide survivors - a principled commitment to commemorating and ending genocide. That starts with acknowledging the tragic instances of genocide in world history. As a U.S. Senator, I have stood with the Armenian American community in calling for Turkey's acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. Two years ago, I criticized the Secretary of State for the firing of U.S. Ambassador to Armenia, John Evans, after he properly used the term "genocide" to describe Turkey's slaughter of thousands of Armenians starting in 1915. I shared with Secretary Rice my firmly held conviction that the Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence. The facts are undeniable. An official policy that calls on diplomats to distort the historical facts is an untenable policy. As a senator, I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Genocide, sadly, persists to this day, and threatens our common security and common humanity. Tragically, we are witnessing in Sudan many of the same brutal tactics - displacement, starvation, and mass slaughter - that were used by the Ottoman authorities against defenseless Armenians back in 1915. I have visited Darfurian refugee camps, pushed for the deployment of a robust multinational force for Darfur, and urged divestment from companies doing business in Sudan. America deserves a leader who speaks truthfully about the Armenian Genocide and responds forcefully to all genocides. I intend to be that President.

I look forward, as President, to continuing my active engagement with Armenian American leaders on the full range of issues of concern to the Armenian American community. Together, we will build, in new and exciting ways, upon the enduring ties and shared values that have bound together the American and Armenian peoples for more than a century.


http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/19/barack_obama_on_the_importance.php

[izzybeans]

4. If doing what's right disrupts our supply chain for war then I'm all for it.

...even more than I already was.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thesquanderer]

6. Then we'll have to own up to the genocide of the native Americans (n/t)

[mike_c]

9. yup....

Kettle, meet pot.

[DissedByBush]

16. Done, sort of

http://www.tahtonka.com/apology.html

I think admitting "ethnic cleansing" comes close enough, since in this sense it is basically genocide.

[atreides1]

26. Close enough isn't enough

Close only counts in horseshoes.

[DissedByBush]

29. Given that genocide is a subset of ethnic cleansing

It's pretty good.

Our government admits it killed a lot of people on purpose in order to get them out.

Turkey won't even admit that. They say the civilian Armenian deaths were accidental during a time of war and uprising, that there was no coordinated effort.

[No Elephants]

51. Ethnic cleansing, like extermination, is a disgusting term. Slaughter, mass murder,

genocide--none of those terms pretend to be dscribing something positive, as do "cleansing" and "extermination."

"Cleansing" equates the victims with filth, and "extermination" equates them with some kind of undesirable infestation, like bugs or rodents.

Both are dehumanizing, disgusting terms.

[No Elephants]

50. That was an apology. Turks won't even admit it or allow anyone to admit it.

No one should use either "ethnic cleansing" or "extermination," but that is a separate issue.

[thesquanderer]

30. a good start, but not enough, especially because of this line:

"I do not speak today for the United States. "

But thanks for the link, it was interesting.

[Endangered Specie]

35. Theres a HUGE difference between US and Turkey...

Stating "the US committed genocide against Native Americans" in the US is protected under the first amendment.
Stating "Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians" in Turkey is ILLEGAL and WILL LAND YOU IN JAIL.

[boppers]

38. Turkish authorities have made the Native American point.

Funny thing is that most Americans aren't offended by such an accusation, AFAIK.

[No Elephants]

49. Is anyone denying itt?

[Plucketeer]

7. I know this is serious, but

when I saw this header: "White House to Congress: Don't offend Turkey", I thought the subject matter was about a warning from Obama to Pelosi to not hurt John Beohner's feelings.

NOW - as far as not offending the Turks, tough stuff. We shouldn't be in favor of writing history in pussyfoot fashion! TELL IT LIKE IT IS. Heh - so much for truth and openess. :hide:

[Tyrone Slothrop]

13. Wasn't this one of Sibel Edmonds' claims?

It's been awhile since I read her deposition transcript, but I seem to recall that a good chunk of it was dedicated to her allegations that the Turkish secret service was blackmailing/bribing high-level members of the US govt and Congress in order to prevent the passage of the Armenian genocide resolution.

Good thing the mainstream media didn't bother reporting on any of that...
:eyes:

[AllentownJake]

14. If they are bribing members of congress....

I assume the media gets its cut.

[catnhatnh]

17. Yep,

The biggest hog at the trough was Dennis "Fat Denny" Hastert to the tune of 400K if I remember right.Somehow using mafia type monickers for Repubs like him seem appropriate...

[No Elephants]

55. And what is Haestert doing these days?

[awnobles]

22. Exactly what I was thinking

Please research Sibel Edmonds, It is exactly what she talkin about.

[davepc]

18. The 'Great Game' trumps taking a stand on principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game


We won't do a thing to piss off our allies, right or wrong be damned.

It's no different then when a young Thomas Jefferson admirer named Ho Chi Mihn tried to get Woodrow Wilsons support to end the colonization of Vietnam by France.

Wilson told him to go pound sand.

[Adsos Letter]

40. Worse than that; Wilson refused to even meet with him.

It amounts to the same thing, just represents one further mark out on the "go pound sand" scale.

[Nothing Without Hope]

19. Just ask "Denny Boy" Hastert about Turkey. Much more light is needed on this.

How many Americans know what Sibel Edmonds has revealed? How many real investigations into treason are going on?

[Igel]

23. One could make a rather different assertion about spinelessness.

That the spinelessness was making a promise about something of little current international importance in order to get votes.

I think there was an Armenian--and Greek and Kurdish--genocide. Yes, I understand much of the reasons for it. I still think it was horrendous. I've seen faculty threatened with loss of materials and access, and use that threat to their research and their students' research as extortion to get the Turks' POV not just acknowledged by honored. I've known Turks; I've known Armenians.

And yet it's not a big deal currently, except to the extent that it makes a group of 2nd-3rd generation American immigrants feel validated; or, it applies pressure so that a quasi-Islamist group proud that their ethnicity has always been good and just and virtuous has to face the facts, their ancestors were pigs like most people, but since they were powerful pigs they were able to do more wrong.

[armodem08]

24. Something is seriously wrong with this.

"On Thursday, a Turkish official suggested his country could again recall its ambassador to the United States if the congressional panel approves the resolution.

"All options are on the table," the government official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue."

Am I the only one who wants to kick the anonymous Turkish gov official in the balls?! His country killed millions of Armenians, and THEY get offended when someone brings it up. That is seriously messed up. Of course no one will call them on it, mostly because of the Iraq supply-route thing.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

37. Hey......we are not at Freepwear!

Do not call this President vile names.

That's stepping over the line.

[alp227]

27. UPDATE: HOUSE PANEL HAS APPROVED THE RESOLUTION, AND TURKEY IS UPSET!!!!

This article has been updated just over half an hour ago.

WASHINGTON - A congressional panel approved a resolution Thursday declaring the Ottoman-era killing of Armenians genocide over protests by Turkey, a NATO ally that is crucial to U.S. interests in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

Minutes after the vote, Turkey said it was recalling its ambassador from Washington.

The House Foreign Affairs Committee endorsed the resolution with a 23-22 vote Thursday, even though the Obama administration had urged Congress not to offend Turkey by approving it.

We should call our representatives and urge them not to deny history and vote FOR this resolution. This genocide is just as undeniable as the Holocaust and Rwandan Genocide!

[dipsydoodle]

28. LBN - US Congress panel accuses Turkey of Armenian 'genocide'

A US congressional panel has described the killing of Armenians by Turkish forces during World War I as genocide, despite White House objections.

The resolution was narrowly approved by the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Turkey, a key US ally, responded by recalling its ambassador in Washington for consultations. It has fiercely opposed the non-binding resolution.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8550765.stm

[Kitsune]

31. Fuck Turkey.

And the same to Obama, if he's going to defend genocide deniers. This isn't a huge issue but it's kind of a no-brainer, y'know?

[inna]

33. The link in the OP appears to be gone.

:wtf:


MSNBC censoring itself, or what?...

[Endangered Specie]

36. Pass it, and tell the Turkish government to eat shit.

JMHO

[boppers]

45. How... diplomatic.

[boppers]

39. The south complains the US civil war was genocide, the north disagrees.

It's kind of a paltry comparison, but the events involved were like a bizarre mix of civil war, ethnic cleansing, class warfare, state revolution, and holy war.... wikipedia seems to do a good job of it, pointing out that the actions involved had the *effect* of killing off a large ethnic group, but the overt *motivation* was not killing the group itself.

Oh, and just in case it NEEDS to be pointed out (because I think it does), "Genocide" has different meanings when translated to different languages.

[Adsos Letter]

41. Not sure I completely agree with your take on the wiki article

"The Armenian Genocide...was the deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I."

"It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern genocides,<7><8><9> as scholars point to the systematic, organized manner in which the killings were carried out to eliminate the Armenians" (intent being the key here; the Turks acknowledge the deaths, but disagree about the intent part))

further on:

"Law professor Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term "genocide" in 1943, has stated that he did so with the fate of the Armenians in mind, explaining that "it happened so many times... First to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action."


further on:

"The premeditated destruction of objects of Armenian cultural, religious, historical and communal heritage was yet another key purpose of both the genocide itself and the post-genocidal campaign of denial."


I'd say they come down pretty squarely on the determination that it was a genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

[boppers]

42. See the terms definition section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide#Defining_genocide

It's complex.

Putting it in American terms, I would say that the US committed unintentional genocide against Native Americans. Perhaps "unintentional genocide" would work in some languages, but in others, genocide implies intent to destroy a people, so it would translate as "unintentional intentional killing of a people", which doesn't make much sense.

edit:typo

[Adsos Letter]

43. This is the definition which is relevant in the ongoing debate between Turks and Armenians

Key Provisions

The convention defines genocide as any act committed with the idea of destroying in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. This includes such acts as:

Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting conditions calculated to physically destroy the group (the whole group or even part of the group)
Forcefully transferring children of the group to another group

http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/treaties/genocide.asp

Yes, the situation in the ottoman Empire at the time was complex. But, I read wikipedia as agreeing with the UN resolution/definition of genocide, and that the Turks committed such against the Armenian population.


Edited to add: "Several international organizations have conducted studies of the events, each in turn determining that the term "genocide" aptly describes "the Ottoman massacre of Armenians in 1915–1916."<123> Among the organizations affirming this conclusion are the International Center for Transitional Justice, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and the United Nations' Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities.<123><124>"

I read Dr. Bauer's point as one of comparing the Holocaust to any other form of genocide, an issue that has been addressed by other scholars.

Edited to add: I have no problem calling the US policies regarding Native Americans "genocide," especially under the Jackson administration.

[boppers]

44. The problem:

Is killing peoples who reject governance, as a group, genocide?

Is the Turkish government as justified as the Israeli government in building their nation, by removing dissent?

[Unvanguard]

53. No, let's go ahead and offend Turkey. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

54. Obama is a BIGGER piece of shit every day...how does he do it?

what a spineless, WORTHLESS fuckwad.