AP IMPACT: Toyota secretive on 'black box' data (could explain crashes blamed on sudden acceleration

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP

By CURT ANDERSON and DANNY ROBBINS

SOUTHLAKE, Texas (AP) - Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.

The AP investigation found that Toyota has been inconsistent - and sometimes even contradictory - in revealing exactly what the devices record and don't record, including critical data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.

By contrast, most other automakers routinely allow much more open access to information from their event data recorders, commonly known as EDRs.

AP also found that Toyota:

- Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.

- Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.

- In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20100305/D9E864VO1.html

---

See full story.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Something is not adding up here.

I smell a rat.

They need to come clean, or they will find themselves painted into a corner that they chose.

[Oldtimeralso]

2. K&R and off to the greatest n/t

[billymayshere]

4. Ford will be the new standard of quality

I think they out sold toyota last month. It really makes me curious what is on those boxes. If it is a widespread problem Toyota is toast. Is it bad to root for this problem?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. I can hardly blame you for rooting for this problem...

Except that those black boxes really need to be seen. People's lives depend on them.

And yes, Ford did outsell Toyota...

Welcome to DU!


:hi:

[Mopar151]

15. From the linked article

General Motors, for example, has licensed the auto parts maker Bosch to produce a device capable of downloading EDR data directly to a laptop computer, either from the scene of an accident or later. The device is available to law enforcement agencies or any other third party, spokesman Alan Adler said.

Spokesmen from Ford and Chrysler said their recorder data is just as accessible. "We put what you would call 'open systems' in our vehicles, which are readable by law enforcement or anyone who has a need to read that data," Chrysler spokesman Mike Palese said.

Nissan also makes its EDR data readily available to third parties using a device called Consult, spokesman Colin Price said. The program allows access to a host of vehicle data, from diagnosing the cause of a check-engine light to downloading EDR data after a crash, he said

I know what I'd be doing if I owned one of these Toyotas - but It's not a practical solution for most owners.

[Omaha Steve]

19. Welcome to the DU

Nice to meet you.

[ingac70]

3. kicking.

[madrchsod]

6. i`m beginning to think they really know.....

their design can not be fixed. i`ve thought the problem is the design and there`s no way to correct 8 million autos. the more this is exposed the more it looks like they are trying to cover that fact up.

[fujiyama]

7. At this point, that's what bothers me most

It seems like they really don't have a clue what the issue is - and I'm not sure they really care enough to do what's needed.

The problem seems very deep seeded and like Peggy said, it's important for public safety to get to the root of it.

[Bearware]

9. Smells to me at lot like software synchronization and timing bugs

There are probably a number of different problems both with the hardware and the software. With car's electrical systems turning into a network of computers, Toyota probably did not have a competent software architect design foolproof synchronization for handling simultaneous events. In other words whatever they use as an "operating" system and the code that interfaces to that system, has intermittent or timing bugs that Toyota is either unaware of or does not not have the staff that knows how to fix that type of problem. Some of Toyota's software people may have the required skills but that does not mean that management either knows the skills are required or will allow right software people to fix the problems. It may be that mechanical and/or electrical engineers are making those decisions without realizing they do not have the required training or skills.

The worst case for Toyota is they may have to rewrite their system code. Microsoft had a vaguely similar situation and solved it by replacing Windows 95/98 with Window NT. Windows 95/98 would act squirrelly or crash if you pushed on it with many simultaneous requests. The core of Windows NT was not a set of fixes to Windows 95/98, it was a totally new operating system written by people with serious prior experience in operating systems for multitasking computers.

Maybe it's just my nose acting up...

[Kablooie]

13. Or it might require an expensive hardware replacement they don't want to do.

[Mopar151]

14. I think you both may be right.

Another poster here - IIRC, a VW/Audi tech - mentioned a serious, high-speed data bus in those cars. I can tell you, from my limited experience in industrial automation, that lack of speed/smarts in the sensor net will make for big crashes - fixing said crashes being one of my specialties. Timing/programming issues have a lot to do with it, as well - especially what happens when a sensor drops out.
Toyota could live through replacing the whole computer, with a new program - but serious deficiencies in the sensor net could bankrupt even Toyota.

[Kolesar]

16. Your account of Microsoft and multitasking talent is interesting

I wonder where the new designers were "hired away" from.

[Bearware]

22. Sounds like you know the answer already.

For those who do not know the company was Digital Equipment Corporation and Dave Cutler was a primary architect on DEC's VMS and the primary architect of MS Windows NT. The following shows how many real operating systems he was at least one of the primary architects on. He brought a number of very experienced people with him from DEC form the VMS development group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler

I suspect timing bugs are the biggest issue because most programmers do not seem to be able to successfully write and debug timing dependent software. This far more the case for engineers from other disciplines. The high speed bus may be another issue but having a car suddenly go full throttle and stay that way even with the brakes full on for many seconds says the software has dropped the information on the floor. Since the information is on the floor most likely any error message to be stored for the after crash investigation will never be created. The programmer would have had to have tested for "impossible" situations and timing conflicts which most are not aware of. I have seen many cases of hide-and-seek bugs that come at random times and disappear. It was just a computer "glitch" - NOT! Properly written realtime multi-threaded code can run for years without a reboot. A hardware failure that fails to execute an instruction properly can cause the software to fail but this is quite rare and usually produces a crash.

[Kolesar]

25. Control systems are developed for processes handling dangerous materials ...

...that don't have Toyota's "problems". There are ways to design output circuits and control algorithms so that any failure, whether a transistor or a software problem, fails to a "safe" state.

[tridim]

10. 8 million people stuck with worthless cars and unpaid loans. Yikes.

[Kablooie]

12. I'm beginning to agree with you. A dangerous problem they can't fix? Whoa.

That is what it's sounding like.

[harun]

26. I am sure it can be fixed just much much more epensive than anyone has suggested.

Hence they aren't actually fixing the problem. The real solution is they probably need to replace whole pieces of hardware, not just upgrade firmware or software. If it was just firmware or software they would have fixed it in five min's and it wouldn't have cost them anything but the labor. My speculation on this is the hardware in there just isn't able to provide the right data to other parts of the system nor use that data correctly, so they are really screwed. They will need to replace major hardware, probably the cruise control systems and drive by wire acceleration systems in all those vehicles. When faced with that price tag the Exec's probably figured out a plan to keep everything from seeing the light of day.

All speculation on my part but their actions allude to something of this nature going on.

[Zoeisright]

8. Just like all corporations. Kill people, then hide their culpability.

Death penalty for corporations.

[tridim]

11. It's like "Fight Club" nt

[Poll_Blind]

27. That whole little speech he gives about recalls HAS been coming up over and over again in...

...my mind, too.

PB

[groundloop]

17. I've suspected something Toyota had serious computer problems, glad we own all Fords now

This certainly doesn't look good for them, it's going to be a major undertaking to redesign their computer/sensor systems, and an even bigger problem to convince their customers to come back.

[pattmarty]

18. Not being an actual mechanic, I have throughout my life worked...........

............on ALL my cars (saved a ton of money) and had certain "toy" (muscle car) cars. Up until around the early 90's a mechanically inclined person could actually "work" on their own car. Now you pretty much have to be "trained" and MUST use specialty (expensive) equipment to "diagnose" most electrical and fuel problems in a vehicle. Today a "backyard mechanic" can still replace brakes, starter, alternator, battery and certain other items on a car without having to have certain expensive specialty tools/diagnostic equipment. More and more vehicles of today do not use the old way of directly connecting the gas pedal to the engine via various mechanical linkages. It is a similar system to the "fly by wire" systems used on aircraft of today.

[PJPhreak]

20. As an owner of Toyota cars and trucks for the last 34 years...

all I can say is I am very disappointed in the way that Toyota is handling this.so much so that when I go to replace my aging Corolla I think its time to take a harder look at not only what I am gonna drive,but why also.
Like yourself I do as much repair/maintenance on my cars as possible...Tho over the last 15 years this has become more of an exercise in frustration and ignorance due to the ever increasing complexity and computerization of the modern automobile.

My solution? This...


Parts availability...Check!
Economical to operate...Check!
Ease of maintenance/repair...Check!
Good Looking (Cool Factor)...Check!
Fun to Drive...Oh Hell Yeah!

Like in Woody Allen's "Sleeper" these things will be around forever!

[SomeGuyInEagan]

21. On complexity and Toyota's response

I agree with both of you about the increasing complexity.

I, too, used to handle most of my own maintenance and repairs. While I can't point to correlation with complexity, cars built today (by all manufacturers, I believe) are lasting much longer. My current Toyota Avalon has 225+ k miles and seems to be running fine. When I began driving in the early '80s, the common belief was 100k was the upper limit for any car. Now, there is little I can do because of complexity. Though I have to add, when the solenoid contacts for my starter was dying last year that it took several calls before I found a parts place where they had even heard of replacing just the solenoid contacts ($10) instead of replacing the entire starter ($250 and throwing away good equipment). It only takes an extra ten minutes to replace to contacts when removing the starter ... ARG!

As to how Toyota is handling this ... no kidding.

A recent NPR study shows that while Toyota indeed has issues with unintended acceleration, if you go back through the years it is tough to find an auto manufacturer who has not had such an issue on a large scale at some time (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124276771). But Toyota is really, really messing up on this on the consumer and governmental relations front. Other manufacturers handled this much, much better and more responsibly. How Toyota is handling this will be case studies for business, ethics, public policy and communications courses soon if they don't get a clue.

And, while it is great that NPR put the resources into doing the digging and reported needed for such a story, it is sad that the NHSTA isn't able to do this itself. The NHSTA *should* be the ones doing this work (and a strong media should be there checking their facts and questioning their results, methodology and next steps). Kudos to NPR.

[Little Star]

23. Everyone on the road is in danger when a Toyota accelerates

out of control and can not be stopped. It is not just the driver of the Toyota. Somebody better do something to correct this problem.

[Endangered Specie]

24. You know, if a Chinese car was imported to the US and had these problems

people would be screaming for them to be banned from importation