Evangelicals Flock Into Iraq on a Mission of Faith

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/20040318/ts_latimes/evangelicalsflockintoiraqonamissionoffaith&cid=2026&ncid=1480

BAGHDAD — An American missionary proudly watches as a sea of Iraqi arms rise in witness to Jesus Christ and choruses of "Amen" compete with distant rattles of gunfire. The faithful sing familiar Christian hymns in Arabic, their voices bouncing off the shipping containers that protect the church from car bombs.


Every Sunday, more than 400 Iraqis travel to this well-to-do neighborhood far from the protection of an American base to worship in the National Biblical Christian Federation Church. Converted from Islam and from other branches of Christianity, they are the first ripple of a tidal wave that evangelical leaders pray will inundate the Middle East.


"I learned about Jesus and eternal life from a friend, and came to this church to see," said Rana Atass, who has attended weekly services at another church for the last month. Her mother, bearing facial tattoos as some Iraqi women do, stood in a line of congregants to ask church leaders for help in buying food. snip

"Handing out food is a perfect time to talk about Jesus Christ with nonbelievers."

more

[OneBlueSky]

1. this, more than anything, is why we will never "win" in Iraq . . .

I've always objected to Christian evangelizing on principle, particularly in countries where other religious traditions are well entrenched . . . having an army of evangelists invade the Middle East on the tail of the U.S. military is the surest way to provoke ongoing hatred of us in the region . . .

[saigon68]

144. Not only that, These Guys are going to get Blown to Bits

Ya, Whitey , take a little walk through harlem late at night, talking trash.

[MurryMom]

2. Converts?

Another perfect time to discuss your belief in Jesus Christ with nonbelievers is when you are holding a rifle and a nonbeliever is on the other end. Nonbelievers can be converted in a hurry if they see your itchy index finger moving slowly towards the lower end of the rifle's trigger.

[tlcandie]

3. And holding out food while there is none to be found ...

Disgusting!

They are itching in the wings to CONVERT!!! Just like those who are greedy for oil and power...

Sickening to take advantage of people who are in such a chaotic state and have no clue about their future.

I think that if anything they may be converting in order to get the items they need or protection they might need to survive at this point in time.

[megatherium]

13. The same proselytizing technique

served Islam very well through much of its history. To this day, in several Islamic countries, it's the death penalty to convert from Islam to Christianity (or simply to be an apostate from Islam).

[rooboy]

19. Notice how American principles in the last 3 years have deteriorated?

Once Americans used to speak of their actions in terms of what they aspired to be. Now everything has become a comparison.

* "at least he didn't lie under oath"
* "at least we're not as bad as Saddam"
* "at least our fundies aren't as bad as the Islamic fundies"

It's a sure way to send your country down the gurgler without even noticing.

[megatherium]

35. point well taken.

We shouldn't be in Iraq period.

Actually, Iraq was one of the more tolerant Arab countries before the war, in that Christianity was permitted. (Tariq Aziz, former Deputy Prime Minister, is Christian.) This contrasts with our fine ally Saudi Arabia, which prohibits Christian worship, even in the privacy of one's own home.

[SemperEadem]

73. our fundies are worse than Islamic fundies

because they worship money over God and will lie in your face while taking your grandmother's retirement savings and say that they don't.

[ck4829]

158. That's not all

They also have connections to death and mass murderers just like the Islamic Fundamentalists.

Pat Robertson's friends
1. Mass Muderer Charles Taylor who is responsible among other things, just one them being the Massacres of Sierra Leone. He also provided sanctuary for Al Qaeda.
2. Rios Montt, he murdered 60,000 Mayans in 1982-83, Montt is also friends with Jerry Falwell.
3. Frederick Chiluba, who denied public education to non-Christians. His more atrocious crimes included the mysterious deaths of his Political Opponents and people who defected from his 'presidency'

Paul Weyrich - Head of the FCF and said to be the Father of the Christian Right (this is just a small list)
1. Augusto Pinochet, he murdered many people and was a Dictator for years, yet Weyrich said it was to restore democracy
2. Laszlo Pasztor, the Nazi and SS guard

[Tommy_Douglas]

20. I'll listen to some guy babble about Christ...

When they have the guns and I'm starving. As far as terrorists go this will be viewed as nothing but a crusade. The exact thing they wanted to mobolize the average everyday muslim against the west.

They say a vote for Kerry is a vote for OBL, but its apparent its the other way around...

[President Jesus]

133. Weirdo Ralph Reed's political contributions

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=GA&contributor=Ralph+Reed

HWJD

(How Would Jesus Donate?)

[schultzee]

4. I hate it when these freakoid paranoid crazies tell me UMC is not

Christian and I am not saved. Why don't these freaks just practice their faith and leave us and the rest of the world to our own faith. I guess tolerance is not part of their beliefs.

[murielm99]

5. UMC???

[tlcandie]

7. I would say United Methodist Church .. yes ...

nt

[murielm99]

9. Don't these freakazoids know that

Shrub is United Methodist?

I will never figure out that one. Why does he act like he is so born-again? United Methodists do not do that. They should disavow him.

[smirkymonkey]

26. I thought he was Episcopalian??

either way, he's still a lying, cheating a**hole.

[area51]

29. Episcopalian

I think it's Geo. Bush Sr. who's Episcopalian.

[wellst0nev0ter]

8. I Think It's The United Methodist Church

And these Jesus freaks are extreme in their self assurance that their Biblical worldview is right and everyone else is wrong, no matter how Christian their counterparts are.

[PsychoDad]

6. UMC?

United Methodist?

[Disturbed]

10. Christians

Maybe these Christians will get their chance to meet up with Alah.

[Ilsa]

11. Well, at least the terra-ists will flock to Iraq

to rid the middle east of the infidels and we won't be fighting them in the streets of Detroit. (sarcasm off)

[Comadreja]

93. Fighting Fundies in Detroit?

Hell, they will have to fought on every street corner if GW gets another term.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

149. Has G DUHbya ever read the bible?

Matthew Chapter 6 verses 19-21: "Do not lay up yourselves treasures on earth where rust and moth consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither rust nor moth consume nor thieves break in and steal."

Or better yet Matthew Chapter 19 verse 24 "And further I say to you it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kindom of heaven."

[BonjourUSA]

12. It isn't a scoop !

We early knew these "God gangs" were in the luggages of the US army.

The most active "Humanitarian organisation" is Samaritan's Purse of Franklin Graham, the Billy Graham's son. This organisation gives to the Iraqis a Bible with a cover which looks like the American soldier uniforms. The colonialism is coming back and perhaps the Middle Age soon.

In 1898, Albert Beveridge, Senator of Indiana, already said something like that : "God made the American people the leaders of the world for bringing order where the chaos is"

[opihimoimoi]

14. Iraqi Gov't letting these guys in???

Oh so there is no gov't.... WE let them in.

This is outrageous.

They don hate us for Freedom, They hate us for our Arrogance and Ignorance.

[BonjourUSA]

17. This organisation is paid by

(excuse my translation) the Baptist Convention of the South ((Convention des Baptistes du Sud, in French). Its aim "to exterminate Islam".

[IndianaGreen]

15. The churches that are sending these misguided missionaries

should be prosecuted for reckless homicide.

[0007]

16. Did the British try this tactic in the 1920's?

How does the rest of the world feel about the U.S. bringing Christianity to the most popular religion in the world?

Are the Chinese laughing at us yet?

[playahata1]

18. This stuff predates the British in the 1920s

The Middle East, Africa, anywhere where persons of color are sitting on resources coveted by Anglos/Euros. Take heed the following quote (slightly paraphrased):

WHEN THEY CAME, WE HAD THE LAND, THEY BROUGHT THE BIBLE.
WHEN THEY LEFT, WE HAD THE BIBLE, AND THEY HAD THE LAND.

[tlcandie]

59. VERY right on there playahata1!!!!

Brilliant post!

[0007]

104. Very good! I love it!!

[Cocoa]

21. those poor Iraqis

not only has their country become a magnet for terrorists, all the evangelists are going there too.

[smirkymonkey]

27. I don't know which is worse!

These poor people! What a disaster.

[maxrandb]

54. On the bright side

Maybe enough of these nutcases will go ever there and not be able to get absentee ballots in time for November.

Think this is ugly. Wait until the Passion snuff film starts being shown in Europe.

It make me sick when you think of the number of people killed in the name of Jesus Christ. If * gets reelected, I hope that, if there is a God, he comes down here and bitchslaps * back to the 12th century.

[veganwitch]

22. "Handing out food is a perfect time to talk about Jesus Christ..."

this is a perfect example of some of the bullshit bully tactics that i cant stand with some missionary groups. way to prey upon the vulnerabilities of others! jesus would be proud.

[dawn]

30. I agree. They should just give the aid, without strings attached.

But that would be too Christian for them...

[progressivebydesign]

32. I notice that about the churches around my area..

.. they spend most of their time and money proclaiming how damn Christian they are.. and how everyone needs to be just like them.. and they spend the money on social events and youth groups to recruit more people who think like them. Their churches are multi-million dollar spectacles.. but were is the LOVE???? WHere is the caring and helping others? That money they spend on ski trips and big churches and luncheons to talk about how faithful they are, could be used to help others. They're like the Amway of religion!

[dawn]

36. I know. It's really sad.

They are like the Pharisees in the Bible. Always making sure to pray in public, where they are seen.

[Roaming]

45. Actually, simply because a church has other ministries doesn't necessarily

mean that they do not help the poor. The church I belong to, for instance, has things for youth, elderly, holds concerts, etc., but we also help the poor with a food pantry, help mothers who need a home when they are pregnant, support two orphanages in Russia, etc., etc.

What I'm saying is, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[veganwitch]

40. ever see that episode in south park..

with the christian missionaries in africa? its hits the nail right on the head.

[The Stranger]

23. Welcome to the Crusade . . . .

Mega-mart "churches" pumping millions for the soothing sermons denial or the brass knuckles of hatred ensconced in the velvet glove of "conversion" or "salvation", Left Behind Eschatology selling off the shelves, the Rapture, the Rapture, the Rapture, and a Neocon Administration as accomplice (if not perpetrator) of all of this.

[FlyByNight]

53. Dubya sure wasn't kidding about a "crusade"...

the time he spewed the term a couple years ago right before the post-9/11 Afghan campaign. As if the Arabs didn't have enough reasons to hate us (the US government anyway)...

[jokerman93]

92. Rapture Rapture Rapture

Dogs and cats living together
Mass hysteria...

Surely these are the last days!!!

If we could just get all the fundies to go to Iraq. That's one outsourcing I wouldn't mind at all...

[EdGy]

24. these people are legitimate military targets

They are invading Iraq just as much as the US army is.

They are attempting to destroy Iraq just like the US bombs and missiles destroyed it. They are exploiting the disorder and hunger in order to try to destroy another culture and religion.

They are legitimate military targets.

They have no business being in Iraq or any other country for that matter.

[saigon68]

25. And they are going to get their Bootys Kicked

This behavior is akin to rolling in molasses in the nude, and then sitting on a hill of fire ants.

[peterh]

48. And the targets are getting hit….

It’s sad…but they have no one to blame but themselves….

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/03/17/BAGCT5M4RJ1.DTL

Beloved missionary killed in drive-by shooting in Iraq

:eyes:

[Comadreja]

94. Kind of like the Children's Crusade

Poor deluded fanatics banded together to reconquer the Holy Land from the infidel, thinking that faith would be enough to route the Moslems. Doesn't it say that faith can move mountains. The kids never made it past Constantinople, and got sold into slavery.

Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. -- Ambroise Bierce

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. That's idiotic

They are religious missionaries, NOT military targets. You try to rationalize terror. By that definition, EVERY church in the world is fair game.

Boy, I knew hatred for religion was bad here, but this thread is pathetic.

We as a nation believe in Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech. That enables you to talk about God and your beliefs. That is definitely something we should export to every nation -- especially places like Saudi Arabia.

[okieinpain]

75. yeah, I kind of agree with you. but it's like going into a dark alley

after flashing a big wad of money in front of a bunch of people. no one has the right to take that wad, but man that sure is a stupid mistake. I was wondering why all of a sudden the civies were getting shot at, now I know why.

[EdGy]

76. what you're saying is idiotic

Did I say every church in the world is fair game? No I didn't. You for some reason have to distort my words.

I do not hate religion. I believe that people should be free to worship as they wish.

But I do think it is WRONG for missionaries to go into a place that is occupied by the military of their country, and under the pretext of "helping" or "saving" people who are in very desperate material conditions, try to convince them that their religion is wrong, their culture is wrong, and that their own way is the only true way.

These people are part of the invasion of Iraq, they are there as a tool of the occupation.

This is absolutely wrong. Iraqis have the right of self-defense. And that includes the right to defend their culture and religion from these invaders.

Please stop distorting the words of others. What I'm saying is very clear. If you believe that missionaries have the right to go to other countries that are occupied by military forces and diss the religion of those places, just say so.

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. I didn't distort a thing

You continue to rationalize terror by supporting attacks on noncombatants.

Sure, you believe people should be free to worship, as long as those who don't like what Christians say can kill them.

The right of self defense to missionary work is the right to say, no thanks. NOT the right to kill.

[EdGy]

105. you continue to distort!

muddle indeed!

"as long as those who don't like what Christians say can kill them."

Your method of distortion is very familiar. Take a specific and generalize it in a way to make it seem ridiculous.

We are not talking about the general right of Christians to say what they want in general terms.

We are not talking about "Christians" in general terms.

We are not talking about "saying" in general terms.

We are not talking about things in general.

We are talking about Iraq. A country that is militarily occupied by the US. A country that the Bush regime has openly declared it wants to remake in the US's image.

We are talking about a specific sect of people who call themselves Christians, who are the strongest political backers of the said Bush regime.

We are talking about people who are not "saying" just anything, but rather are saying that the non-Christian religion and culture of the people in Iraq are bad, evil, etc.

These people's words are backed up by a huge army that is occupying an entire country, which used military force to conquer that country. It is backed up with all kinds of earthly goods that people in Iraq are desperate for because of the military attack.

Surely even you can see that there's a difference between this scenario and generic Christians saying generic things (and even the case of missionaries who go door to door in American cities)!

But then again maybe you don't, or maybe you're just so contrary that you can never admit it...

If you have not already read the post #95 by jokerman2004 below, please do (here's one snip: "Missionary forces have been used as a tool of colonial occupation for hundreds of years.") You might learn something.

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. According to you, noncombatants "are legitimate military targets"

That's what YOU said. Not me. I didn't make it up.

Here it is again: "They are legitimate military targets."

You are indeed talking about "the general right of Christians to say what they want in general terms." You are talking about killing any Christian who dares speak about his religion in an entire NATION!

One does not have to say Islam is bad to say Christ or Christianity is good. Different faiths for different folks. However, to speak of it or recommend it is not a crime.

No one is being forcibly converted. This is NOT like the old days. The military is there on its own and these missionaries are there on their own.

To advocate the murder of innocent noncombatants is to advocate for terror.

It's appalling to see that on DU.

[EdGy]

109. they are neither innocent nor noncombatants

they are an arm of the Bush occupation of Iraq.

[Muddleoftheroad]

139. If they aren't fighting or in the military they are noncombatants

Sad to see you distort the rules of war so perversely that you endorse terrorism.

[Columbia]

145. Sometimes I wonder what is more disturbing...

Seeing people on this board "progressively" and "tolerantly" advocating the death of Christian missionaries...

or

Me not being surprised anymore.

[EdGy]

147. you're confused

When I say that someone is a legitimate military target I am stating a fact.

US soldiers are legitimate military targets if they are in a war. That is a fact. By saying that, I am not "advocating" their death. I am merely pointing to a fact.

The missionaries are an extension of the US military occupation. I am not advocating their death. I am merely pointing out that as part of the occupying forces who are seeking to stamp out local culture and religion, they are also legitimate targets. I am not advocating it. I am pointing out that fact, whether you like it or not.

Of course the US government denounces anyone who uses violence against its own interest as terrorists, I have become used to that. And I also expect apologists for US imperialism to use the same language.

[Muddleoftheroad]

151. You are indeed rationalizing acts of terror

By applying your own set of rules to the rules of war. These new rules conveniently say it is OK to kill noncombatants that you don't like.

But that puts you in good company. Some of the more memorable names of history did stuff like that. Attila. Genghis Khan. Hitler. Stalin.

[TankLV]

182. You forgot "enemy combatant" bush*.

Along with the others you mentioned.

[EdGy]

146. no

the terrorists are the people in YOUR government who are destroying another country, with overt military force as well as with these so called "christian" missionaries.

Defending one's own country against invading and occupying forces is not terrorism. Resisting US imperialism is not terrorism. These people are part and parcel of the US forces. They were IMPOSED onto Iraq by the Bush regime.

If you want to be an apologist for US imperialism that is fine with me. Just be honest about it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

152. I don't apologize or apologist

I opposed the war in Iraq. If you had a DU star, I'd say check the archives and you'll see that.

That doesn't make militaries that fight other militaries out to be terrorists.

But the rules do stand for those who deliberately attack CIVILIAN targets. They are terrorists.

Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Wiccan missionaries are ALL noncombatants.

[JohnLocke]

156. Muddle...

check your inbox.

[jokerman93]

95. You are completely correct

Missionary forces have been used as a tool of colonial occupation for hundreds of years. This tactic is well documented, and there's plenty of scholarship to back you up. Religion is always in the tool kit of conquerers and the western corporations who have entered foreign countries to get hold of natural resources. Importing Jeezuz is equal to importing the values of the capitalist conquistadors. It creates an ambiguity of loyalties. It breaks down the integrity of the native value system. It's a means of cultural and social pacification -- psychological Operations pure and simple.

I'm at work and don't have the references. Sorry. If anyone is interested, please email me.

I also agree with you that these so-called missionaries are sitting ducks. On the other hand, I also believe these people want to bring it on -- the eschatological fervor is growing feverish and hysterical among the Dominionists. They expect and want lots of dead christians at the hands of the unsaved. Persecution is their primary means of self-validation.

[Comadreja]

98. Then there's the martyr complex

Some of these folks are the Dominionist equivalent of a jihadi. They think that getting killed while on a holy mission is a direct path to paradise. It's the same pathetic delusion that has sent missionaries into suicidal situations since the Common Era began.

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamaties that engine of grief has produced! -- John Adams

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/christiantaliban.jpe

[jokerman93]

101. Bingo!

n/t

[dax]

159. Religion is the most successful con to subjugate people...

Think about the use of religion-to convince people that if they are civil to each other and respect authority, that god will reward them in the hereafter. then you take various texts written by men with an agenda and say that they are god's words and interpret them to suit the agenda and of course god isn't available to be cross examined by anyone who has a different interpretation...When I read the christian bible it is overwhelmingly clear to me that Jesus was a socialist-throw the money lenders out, share the fishes etc. Yet fundamentalists tend to be right wing sometimes fascist in their need to deny the right of others to coexist with different beliefs-I love the judge in Multnomah county who refused to issue the injunction on same sex marriage- he said the petitioners had "failed to show how they would be harmed if two other people got married". AMEN Yes the missionaries ARE an arm of the occupation and it is a set-up for the missionaries and the Iraqis. If you were an Iraqi guerrilla, you would "convert immediately, share all the goodies with your rebel friends, wait for the right opportunity, use your expanding access to American facilities because they "trust you now that you are a "christian, and blow something big up with lots of people to demoralize the occupation. these missionaries meddling where they don't belong are just pathetic pawns in the whole mess. they really need to concentrate on bringing health care, housing and adequate food and organizing LABOR UNIONS to raise the standard of living in America. If they want to go abroad, they should contact local people and ask what they need and send it. I used to do a toy distribution benefit and all the public volunteers wanted to be in on the distribution-they wanted to be handing out toys to poor peoples kids. It used to wear me out explaining that we distribute toys to the parents so they can give them to their kids and preserve some personal dignity. If local people ask for your presence, then you can go otherwise, you are just another in vader.

[EdGy]

160. "If local people ask for your presence, then you can go otherwise, you are

just another invader."

That is very well put, dax.

And I think your story about the toys, and people putting their own desire to be thanked, their desire to make these children grateful to them, over the common sense position you took, focusing on the dignity of the families and children, is a huge part of what's wrong with US foreign assistance, NGO activities, and of course the missionaries.

They are just another invader.

[Muddleoftheroad]

162. So if One Person invites you, it's OK?

Because I'm sure every missionary could find one or a small group to invite them.

[EdGy]

167. that is a good point

no, it should not be one person. It should be the society as a whole. But only while it is free and able to have open discussions about its own goals and priorities.

As long as the US military is based in Iraq, even once it "gives back" Iraq its sovereignty, that discussion cannot be had.

The US has made it clear that it will not allow countries under its control to make decisions about their own societies if those decisions go against the interests of the ruling regime in the US.

Given the extent to which the religious right and the Bush regime are intertwined, especially, this discussion will not happen in Iraq until the US military and US corporations leave.

[Muddleoftheroad]

171. If you are waiting for U.S. corporations to leave

Then technically you are invalidating missionary work in every nation on the globe.

[EdGy]

173. you are correct.

I think that missionary work of the kind being carried out by these people is wrong, period.

[Muddleoftheroad]

174. So now we get down to it

You are simply opposed to missionary work anywhere.

[EdGy]

175. I am opposed

to the kind of missionary work these people are doing. I understand that not all missionaries behave and believe as these people do. I have seen missionaries whose goal is NOT to convert people, NOT to tell people they will burn in hell if they do not accept Jesus, NOT to belittle peoples' own religious and cultural beliefs as pagan and primitive, but who rather are there ONLY to help out, with NO goal of conversion. I have fewer problems with that kind of missionary.

But I think the kind of "mission" that the people in this story are conducting is wrong.

My point here has been that it is particularly despicable in a case like Iraq, where these American "Christians" are coming in under the protection of the US military, rushing to establish a presence because they know full and well that if the US were not in control they would not be allowed to be doing what they are doing, and coming in to convert people to their own extremist version of Christianity.

It is also despicable in other countries where, while not under military occupation, the situation is so dire that people are desperate, and this type of missionary uses that desperation to convert people.

Although I also oppose missionaries who go around door to door in the US, and find it offensive, obviously it is very different than the other situations.

And for the record, I am just as opposed to Muslim missionaries as to Christian ones who behave in this way. In the Balkans I have seen Muslim missionaries from Saudi Arabia, doing exactly what these Americans are doing in Iraq, taking advantage of peoples' desperation, using their money and resources to lure people into their missions, while the real goal is to convert people to a very particular extremist version of Islam. And they are nothing but a tool of Saudi imperialism.

[Muddleoftheroad]

177. All the difference is soft sell vs. hard sell

When you walk into the dealership, does the guy chat with you and ask you about your kids and THEN sell you the car or doesn't just get down to business.

You are bothered by tactics.

All missionaries should want to convert people to their beliefs. The only question is how eager or active they are.

[EdGy]

178. that is not exactly true

some types of missionaries do NOT have the goal of conversion (maybe calling them missionaries is a misnomer).

Plus this is very different than car sales.

It's the difference between giving someone something to eat because they are hungry, and giving someone something to eat because they are hungry and you want them to change their religion.

But for the sake of argument let's accept your premise, and talk only about missionaries who are out to change religion.

Please re-read my above post with that premise in mind.

[Comadreja]

97. The old anti-DU mantra

I see it on other forums when "Christian Zionists" and other conservatives refer to DU or Liberals...we "hate" religion, we "hate" America, we "hate" our troops, we "hate" the unborn. It's their way of cranking up the rhetoric.

"We are trying to change the tones in the state capitals - and turn them toward bitter nastiness and partisanship." Grover Norquist

[The Stranger]

82. Nice try. But that's not going to fly here.

This isn't about "Freedom of Religion" in the least. In fact, this isn't even really about true religion at all.

The people seeking to convert the Iraqis don't believe in Freedom of Religion -- they believe that everyone should be coerced to believe in their religion. That is why they seek to institutionalize their religion in the government, including the need to amend the Constitution to prevent same sex marriages, the need to outlaw and erode a woman's right to choose, and the need to incorporate and worship in public schools through use of their own kind of prayer.

Nor is it really religion to begin with. The need to make someone else worship as you worship -- and confronting them (directly or indirectly) in an effort to make them worship as you worship -- is abuse. Instead of accepting (or loving) that other person as an end in themselves, the proselytizer is making that other person (Other is a good word here) a means to their own ends. Making another person a means to your own ends -- your own sick need to justify your own beliefs by making others "believe as you do" -- defines abuse.

Given the long and sordid history of Christianity with regard to Islam and Judaism, these people should be educated on others who shared the historical quest to convert others and the damage that this has caused, the lives it has cost, and how this has gone on for centuries.

[TankLV]

183. Bingo. Well said.

Unfortunately, the bush*/fundie apologist will never listen.

[Sandpiper]

124. We as a nation also seem to believe in imposing our beliefs on others

Whether they asked for it or not. These "missionaries" are emissaries of American imperialism that are following in the wake of military jackboots.

These same noble Christians of the Southern Baptist Convention enthusiastically cheered Bush's slaughter of Iraq, and now have the Hubris to come in as "humanitarians."

Muddle, is there any revolting act of the fundies that you're not willing to excuse?

[BEZARK]

165. Shades of political commissars

"We bring you the new truth"

[Kool Kitty]

28. So it really is a crusade.

How many of our soldiers are going to die saving them?

[progressivebydesign]

31. Okay.. I'm officially sick of the "non-believer" crap!!!

I HATE that term!! I HATE IT!!! It's a way to minimalize and disparage those that don't agree with them. Children in the pubilc schools use that term now to ostracize kids from social groups. It's an ugly word because of the way it's used.

These people need to get a life.. Iraqis need to have their lives back.. they don't need to be praising Jesus.. they need food, and jobs, and safety. I cannot wait until this fad is over.. I guess whenever the economy is truly bad, religious cults get popular.. as in the 70's.

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. What term would you prefer?

Non-believer sounds like you don't believe in anything. Atheist might be more correct for some folks, not others. Got an omnibus term you prefer?

However, the flip side is you stop using offensive terms like "cult."

[bobbyboucher]

176. You're the "non-believer"

You don't believe in common sense, or logic, or scientific theory, or facts.

Instead, you say those that don't believe in myths, or superstitions, or religion are "non-believers".

Stick to the facts.

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k<
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

[eurolefty]

181. the brights

Got an omnibus term you prefer?

Yes. Some of us prefer "the brights". Thanks for asking.

http://www.the-brights.net/

[progressivebydesign]

33. I'd rather be in Hell with Ghandi, then in Heaven with these people!

..according to their gospel, I'd have some damn find company down there!! A big DU Party!!!

[Malva Zebrina]

55. I have often thought of that

imagine all the interesting people you would meet in hell? Carl Sagan for one--Bertrand Russell for another and a host of interesting and brilliant minds would be there. Buddha and even Confucious will certainly be there.

Imagine the people you would be forced to live with in heaven. George Bush the killer for one. Even Hitler who was baptised a Catholic may be in heaven if he said just before he shot himself that he was sorry.

[President Jesus]

134. extremely well put

to me, the way those people live and think people is the definition of hell. I want no part of that, and I highly doubt Jesus would either.

[devinsgram]

34. How about all these fundies go to Iraq

and we bring the soldiers home, then they can do the fighting. After all they are ready for end of the world and I would think they would be happy to die for their cause.

[dawn]

37. I'm so tired of evangelists.

I was recently job searching and found what looked like a great job on Monster.com. Until I read that the Web Editor position would be at an evangelical institution. Their website was so hateful. They called Bhutan a haven of sin because they didn't allow proselytizing of Buddhists and Hindus. And then they called Tantric Buddhism demonic and twisted.

:puke:

[The Animator]

38. The inquisition.. what a show!

So there goal is to turn moderate Muslims into Christian extremists... good plan. This puts the "mental" in fundimentalist.

These poor people need to be saved from the threat of abortion clinics, inter-racial relationships, homosexuality and evolution.

This is why when people ask me, I tell them I'm a Jedi.

[SOS]

39. What would happen

if Islamic fundamentalists from Iraq showed up in the US Bible Belt trying to convert Christians?

[EdGy]

41. that's an excellent question!!

and should help at least some Americans understand why this kind of thing is so offensive (and stupid).

[Sandpiper]

125. No, it would be different

Because Christianity is the "true" religion. Islam is a "heathen" religion.

[Jacobin]

43. They would be shot or lynched.

I suspect they will get the same treatment in Iraq.

Who am I to complain? :shrug:

[lolly]

112. More to the point

What if an Islamic country invaded and conquered the U.S., leaving us all in starvation and without the basic necessities of life . . .

THEN, while we were still under occupation, the Islamic state sent missionaries to tell us they would give us food and shelter to whomever would accept Muhammed as God's prophet.

As a U.S. citizen and non-Muslim, I would certainly consider those missionaries as the enemy, and fair game for resistance activities.

Do you really not see any difference between that and standing on the street corner asking people to read the Bible or Qu'ran or whatever?

[EdGy]

114. thank you lolly, this is exactly the point

but I fear some people don't want to look beyond their own support for US imperialism.

[enki23]

42. that'll help relations

but what the hell. at least they're somewhere else.

[Just Me]

44. Jesus would come and knock these people off their righteous pedestals!

Mankind's greatest weakness of fearing inferiority has destroyed the message of this incredible human being and resulted in entirely too much violence to humanity.

[Roaming]

46. Besides loving God and one's neighbor as one's self, the third

command a Christian has to carry out in the world is to tell others' about Jesus' love. If sharing the Gospel is done in love and with "no strings attached" (which I believe missionaries do -- they would not withhold food from a hungry person just because they are muslim) then, IMHO, it can only help in a country where hope is so desperately needed. Also, will it not also put a kind face on westerners for them--all they have seen thus far are soldiers...

[Blue Gardener]

47. Are those rose-colored glasses you're wearing?

You really think they are going to welcome these people with open arms? The "my religion is better than your religion" crap is not going to go over well. Have you already forgotten about the missionaries that were gunned down earlier this week? Personally, when someone tries to convert me, I don't look upon a "kind face", I see someone who thinks I'm simply not intelligent enough to figure out my beliefs on my own. I don't need their help, nor did I ask for it.

[Roaming]

57. [smile] Maybe they're rose-colored, I don't know

But I do know what the love of Christ has done for me in my life and in the lives of many others like me, and I'm hopeful for what it can do for others.

[dawn]

66. Hey as long as you're cool with people not liking it.

Then that's fine.

I like what another poster said. What if Islamic evangelists were doing this around the USA?

[Roaming]

122. Actually, Islam one of the fastest growing religions in the US, and

it's certain that at least some Muslims are discussing the reasons for their faith with people or how would that be the case?

[dawn]

170. Discussing faith is different than what these missionairies are doing,.

I have seen their websites. They call other religions "demonic". Yeah, a real great way to get people to see your way of thinking.

And imagine if Muslims set up aid programs on Skid Row, while passing out Korans and converting the poor to Islam. Imagine the outcry here.

[Blue Gardener]

74. Whatever works for you is fine

Don't assume what works for you will work for everyone else. If Christianity is what you need to get through the day, then good for you. But, be respectful of the tens of millions of other people throughout the world who have their own beliefs that they are perfectly content with.

[Roaming]

123. I agree, respect is tantamount, and naturally flows out of love

for others.

[Sandpiper]

127. The love of Christ for these people

Is a bible in one hand, and a machine gun in the other.

[The Stranger]

83. By definition, loving another as yourself means that you do not abuse

that person by confronting them and trying to make them worship as you do.

[Malva Zebrina]

90. and conversly, it does not mean you obliged to listen to anyone of them

out of "love" or respect. There are boundaries and they need to be established lest these people be allowed to ride roughshod over you at will. You must first love yourself if you are to love your neighbor.

[Roaming]

96. Believe me, no missionaries are into the business of forcing anyone

All they want to do is present the love of Jesus and the story of the Gospel. From there, it's up to the individual and the Holy Spirit.

[The Stranger]

100. That sounds good. But,

Again, by definition, if you are following the love of Jesus, you don't have to "present" anything. Worse, such "presenting" may be abusive, demeaning and judgmental to another person, thereby violating the love of Jesus.

[Roaming]

110. On the contrary, if you love Christ you are entrusted with

the "great commission" of telling others about Him.

[The Stranger]

111. His New Commandment trumps the "Great Commission."

Also, the Great Commission doesn't appear in all of the Gospels, while the New Commandment (Love one another as I have loved you) does.

[Roaming]

113. Actually, the Great Commission does appear in all the Gospels:

Thanks for your observation--it made me do some digging.

The directive to spread the Word is in Matthew (28:18-20), Mark (16:15), Luke (25:47), and it's a little harder to find in John, but it's there, in chapter 15:18-20, and also in verse 27 -- and clearly implies Jesus expects his disciples to go out into the world and teach others, warning them that they will suffer because of it.

Therefore, the love commandment and the commandment/expectation to out into the world do indeed appear in all the Gospels. Which makes sense, doesn't it, in that to be able to love others you need to be close to them and communicate with them?

Respectfully,

[The Stranger]

117. Nope.

Only Matthew talks about going forth and making "disciples of all nations." Luke comes close to Matthew. Mark only talks about creatures and John never comes even close to any commission at all.

But the fact of the matter that trying to convert someone is not loving them, it is violating them. Truly loving someone involves accepting and loving them as an ends in themselves -- not as a means to your own ends. Any commission must take this into account or violate the most fundamental of laws.

[Roaming]

120. Let's look at this more closely then...

OK, let's look at each of the Gospel passages that are in dispute here:

Mark 16:15: He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Doesn't it seem silly that the text here would be referring to animals and trees? Who in their right mind would preach to animals and trees? Further, it says "whoever believes." Obviously an animal is not a "whoever" -- people are.

The quotes in John are implied, but they are clear that Jesus was expecting his disciples to tell others about Him:

John 15:18-20 starts out with a warning: "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also."

Why would the world hate and persecute His disciples? It certainly wouldn't hate them if they kept to themselves.

And the final verse in that paragraph clearly shows Jesus' expectation that the disciples would be teaching others: "If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also."

Finally, from verses 26-27: "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning."

Again, this last quote even more clearly implies Jesus expected his disciples to testify to what they had seen and heard (i.e., spread the Gospel message).

And finally, most importantly, your last statement is absolutely correct. FORCING YOURSELF upon someone certainly is violating them and not showing them respect, or love.

However, humbly and lovingly sharing the Gospel to those who are willing to listen, and then leaving it up to the individual to decide, is the true character of Christian missionary work.

Respectfully,

[TrogL]

121. That John passage is a bit of a reach

I just re-read John (Lenten project) and didn't get at all.

[Roaming]

128. OK, here is just a little bit more than might help make the case

I found a couple other references in John:

John 17:18: "As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world."

and verse 20: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,..."

In any event, even if one rejects any reference in John to what has become known as the "Great Commission," logically speaking we have:

1. Three out of the four other Gospels that expressly command it;
2. John clearly implies that Jesus wanted his disciples to spread the Word, and if you don't accept that, at worst John is silent on the issue;
3. The entire book of Acts and onward in the New Testament chronicles that the early church was dedicated to spreading the Word, showing that the early believers were certain this was their mission.

Respectfully,

[Muddleoftheroad]

108. Unless they are murdered

As some here advocate.

[Sandpiper]

126. These same missionaries advocated war with Iraq

as a means of clearing the path to bring Christianity to the region. Call me crazy, but I don't recall Jesus EVER supporting militarism.

[TankLV]

184. Guess you didn't hear about our own taliborniagain general

who wouldn't let OUR SOLDIERS have a drink or shower unless they agreed to be "saved".

This idiot should have been courtlmartialed, but he wasn't even reprimanded. It's fucking OFFICIAL US policy.

These missionaries get absolutely NO sympathy from me. They are asking for it.

[ProfessorGAC]

49. Gotta Say, That Takes Some Guts!

I don't go in for structured faith and all that, but going to Iraq right now is not a safe and easy thing to do. I'll hand it these folks, they're committing themselves to their faith. This is a dangerous mission.
The Professor

[Malva Zebrina]

51. yes it certainly is, and if they get kilt, they will be martyrs for

the faith. Never mind that the people have a faith--they believe it is not the "right" faith and they intend to tell these people who do not have the "right" faith they are wrong. and if they get kilt, well they were very brave to go into the midst of the infidels and go into such a "dangerous" mission in order to spread the word of love.

Totally in sinc with the Ugly American personna.

\Yes indeed. they are very brave. Did you know there already was, under Saddam, a thriving, albeit minority , population of Catholics tolerated in Iraq?

Sure they are really brave for following their intolerance.

The professorette

[Sandpiper]

135. Part of being a Christian

Is a pathological need to be a martyr or feel like you're being persecuted in some way.

Even when Christians' power is entrenched, they will imagine they are being persecuted. Not withstanding that the U.S. government recognizes their two holiest festivals (Christmas, Easter)...

What, you say public schools can't teach the divinity of Jesus? Persecution! Intolerable anti-christian persecution!

What, Roy Moore can't erect a monument to the Ten Commandments in the State Supreme Court Building? Persecution!

What, you say science classes don't teach the Genesis creation story? Persecution!


These people's desire to feel persecuted is so profound that they really grasp at straws sometimes.

Iraq however gives them the opportunity to go into an area of U.S. military occupation and impose their beliefs on locals who don't want them there.

And when some of them are inevitably killed, for being considered emissaries of the foreign invaders, they will fancy themselves martyrs. And for them, Jesus's prophecy that they would be persecuted and hated for spreading the good word will be fulfilled.

It's really kind of weird and sick when you think about it.

[TrogL]

50. This is the worst possible thing that could happen

Do they WANT to start the jihad to end all jihads?

What do you think the result would be if the other side tried this in Texas?

[Toucano]

52. There are evangelicals who have an "Armageddon Wish"

I won't bore you with the details (because I don't completely understand the insanity:)), but basically they think they're supposed to promote holy land conflict so their prophecies can be fulfilled and Jesus will return.

They want a strong Israel so the Jews will all be together when Jesus comes to smote them. Or something like that.

[roguevalley]

56. At the beginning of the war, some dip said there were 10-20,000

evangelists poised to go into Iraq. Armageddon indeed.
Holding food out for conversions is sick. They did that
in the east of Ireland during the famine, demanding that
the starving people listen to sermons before giving them
food. Many starved before giving in.

[Sandpiper]

137. You're quite right

Christianity at its core is a doomsday cult. Jesus is going to come back at the battle of Armageddon, destroy the wicked (non christians I presume), rescue his true believers, and show those goll-darned Jews once and for all that he is the Messiah.

Consequently, evangelical Christians feel like it's their job to help Jesus out and bring Armageddon as quickly as possible.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. So Islam can spread to America, but Christianity can't spread?

That is a ridiculous premise. Islam is allowed to spread freely. So should Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism and every other Ism. If Islam is threatened by missionary work enough to start a crusade, then we will fight that battle sooner or later no matter what.

[tlcandie]

84. I don't see them standing out in our streets trying to convert

Christians over to their beliefs. If they did, they would be arrested for terrorism or deported or some such nonsense.

Hell, I can't even get any rest from the Christians at my own home between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons!

I'm all for being spiritual and that is between each person and their God or Creator, but taking it to other people I don't believe is what it is about. I am NOT about religion and hitting people over the head with a baseball bat of guilt and intimidation or control and manipulation to get them to do what YOU believe is right even more at a time when they are suseptible and confused about even every day life.

I think it's walk the walk you talk and we are by far a long way off from that as a nation! In fact, I've had more people ASK me about my life NOW than when I was a RW Christian because it is true to the core and can be seen. Your spirit glows and it is contagious and a magnet. There is no need for this crap it is inflation of ones' self.

People were drawn to Jesus and he shared and talked with them in parables. He let them see his life by traveling with him, spending time with him. He didn't go throughout telling them the end was near, repent and be saved or go to hell.

If you want to help them and bring them into your fold, then go build a church with YOUR funds and provide food, clothing, shelter to them, WITHOUT strings attached mind you, and watch them come in by the hordes without all this missionary crap! I'm sure it's all a HUGE tax write off now anyways under this administration with its faith-based initiatives.

[Muddleoftheroad]

87. Then you aren't looking the right places

Mosques are growing in the U.S. and gaining converts. Islam is particularly popular as a growing faith among the U.S. prison population.

[tlcandie]

89. Mosques... THAT IS NOT THE SAME!!

And ALL religions go to the prisons, so that doesn't hold water.

[Muddleoftheroad]

91. It holds gallons of water

Mosques -- just like churches -- have outreach projects and charity efforts that help find new members.

And the prison outreach is a huge issue in the African-American community because it is targeting young black men.

[dawn]

103. Um, do you see Islamic missionaries passing out Korans on the street?

Do you see them giving aid to our poor, in return for a conversion to Islam?

Many religions, like Buddhism for example, do not believe in proselytizing. They believe that you should find it on your own. Which is why they don't like evangelists working in their countries.

[EdGy]

106. if you cannot see the difference

between the spread of Islam in the US and the actions of "Christian" missionaries in Iraq, then you are indeed blind.

[EdGy]

115. for a specific example of the difference, see

post #112 by lolly above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=429624&mesg_id=433253&page=

[Sandpiper]

138. Stop flogging your Straw Man Muddle

"So Islam can spread to America, but Christianity can't spread?"

Stop being wilfully ignorant of the obvious difference. Stop ignoring the elephant in the living room!

Iraq did NOT invade the United States, occupy it, then start importing Muslim missionaries.

Damned big difference here Muddle.

HUGE Fucking difference.

[Muddleoftheroad]

141. We are not IMPOSING missionaries

They are there of their own free will.

Huge Fucking difference.

[number6]

148. LOL

you are good for a laugh...

"They are there of their own free will."

well duh

the point was we were imposing them on Iraq

[Muddleoftheroad]

153. Not at all

They are there on their own. We aren't imposing anything about their presence.

[dai]

161. Lacking a democratic process

the Iraqis have no means of expelling foreign missionaries (with the exception of violence). As long as Iraqis themselves have no means of deciding who may or may not enter their own country, the presence of missionaries is effectively imposed by the occupying authority.

[Muddleoftheroad]

163. So if I vacation in Iraq

I am an invader because they can't expel me?

That's a pretty convoluted rationale.

[dai]

166. While you may consider yourself

a tourist, an Iraqi may not. Your callous disregard for the rights of the Iraqis underscores a strongly imperialist mentality.

I am an invader because they can't expel me?

Absolutely. In your hypothetical situation, who grants you the right to enter Iraq? Not the Iraqis, until they are able to practice self-determination.

The same goes for the missionaries. Americans are granting foreign missionaries access to Iraqi soil, while the Iraqis have no say as to what goes on in their own land.

[Muddleoftheroad]

172. My callous disregard for Iraqis?

What are you accusing me for during this hypothetical visit? Not tipping enough?

Last time I checked, the major nations -- U.S., Britain, France, Germany, etc. -- have influence in most nations. For any nation under such "influence" to just arbitrarily expel a citizen of any of those nations would cause problems.

[dai]

179. What you do in Iraq

is wholly irrelevant vis a vis the rights of Iraqis. The problem is that the Iraqis had no say as to whether you were allowed to enter at all. Nations exercising sovereignity are able to decide who may or may not enter their country, and for what reasons they may be denied entrance or expelled. For some reason, you do not believe Iraqis should have this right.

If Iraqis want to close their borders to missionaries, or even to you Muddle, they should be allowed to do so. At present, however, Iraqis have no means to make such a choice.

Last time I checked, the major nations -- U.S., Britain, France, Germany, etc. -- have influence in most nations. For any nation under such "influence" to just arbitrarily expel a citizen of any of those nations would cause problems.

"Major nations"? What is this racist crap supposed to mean?

[Muddleoftheroad]

180. Iraqi rights

Well first off, Iraq doesn't really have a ruling government right now. It's in flux. So somebody would have to rule that I couldn't enter and who would that be?

Yes, nations ARE allowed to decide who may enter. But when they do so and piss off other nations, then they also suffer the consequences of lost trade, lost travel, etc.

Clearly, you misunderstood my comment about major nations. Major nations are, well, major nations. Nations with lots of power, influence, trade, political muscle and large militaries. Those nations always have extra influence over nations like Chad or the Madagascar.

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

58. <sigh>

I can almost hear Osama bin Laden laughing...

[kera]

60. Allah

France occupied a north African country for more than a century, and hear this, citizenship was granted only to indigenous who were willing to convert to Christianity, result , the people lived all this time on special status: indigenous status which meant no rights whatsoever , no right to education, no right to own their own land, and from time to time million they were sent to fight all European wars .million died.....thousands were sent to work in metropolis France sort of reverse outsourcing. They were also used by millions for more than a century as canon folder to fight wars in Europe , million died in war ware 1 another million in war against Hitler. This apartheid was enforced by the country that holds itself pioneer in democracy. Nothing no has changed basically

[leesa]

61. Good. I hope they all go to proselytize in a war zone

The more that go home to Jesus the better off the world is.

[goclark]

62. I Am Christian But...

This makes me sick. Why must we force our beliefs on innocent people? Why should we think they should give up their religion and follow my God?

Keep Religion Out Of This War Zone. If you want my opinion, the Religious Right really wanted to go over there so that Christianity will spread all over the world. Sad

Get A Life Fellow Christians. Get a Life!

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. Calling for the death of people

How progressive of you to embrace those of other beliefs.

[leesa]

85. I'm calling for their deaths? THEY are doing it, I say good for them.

They know what they are doing. If they are stupid enough to do it, then so be it. Stop putting words I didn't say into my mouth Muddle.

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. Here are the vile words

"The more that go home to Jesus the better off the world is."

That's calling for their deaths. Amazing.

[The Stranger]

99. I thought it was calling for their "eternal life."

[Sandpiper]

129. How progressive of you to support Religious Imperialism

n/t

[oldcoot]

136. Imperialism

This is a form of cultural imperialism. It is one thing for leaders of an independent nation to invite missionaries into their country and it is quite another for missionaries to follow a conquering army. Unfortunately, many Iraqis are aware of this fact. According to the article, Iraqi newspapers "are screaming about a Christian conspiracy" and Iraqi political leaders are worried about stability.

Another thing that I wish more people would consider is what is going to happen to Iraq after the United States leaves. Eventually, the troops will leave and the Iraqis will be on their own. What is going to happen to those Iraqis who converted during the occupation? Will they be seen as collaborators?

[Muddleoftheroad]

142. It is up to them

Except for a few places on Earth, most folks travel back and forth fairly freely. (Wars and conflicts tend to intervene obviously.)

That means when a nation's leadership changes from a pariah nation to one that is not, people will go there -- including missionaries.

Those who convert during this time are doing so out of their own free will.

[oldcoot]

164. Nations have rules

Nations do control their borders. They decide who may enter and what rules that person must follow. Even the United States, a comparatively free nation, does not let every one in. When and if Iraq becomes an independent country, Iraq's government will decide what rules missionaries, tourists and others will be required to follow.

The missionaries quoted in this article clearly understand this fact and say they want to establish churches before Iraq's sovereign government curtails access to the missionaries. Indeed, one person makes a comment about only having a six-month window. It is also interesting to note that at least one of the missionaries hope to use Iraq to spread his brand of Christianity to nations "where the laws keep us out."

The issue of free will is a tricky one. If a missionary approached me and offered me cookies and punch in exchange for allowing him to have the opportunity to "share" his faith with me, I would laugh in his face. This is easy for me to do because I have never known hunger. However, it would be hard for someone who is starving to say "no" to the same offer.

The article also describes some of these missionaries as unprepared. Some of these missionaries are pastors who just decide one day that they want to go to a war zone with very little training or preparation. It is easy to see why responsible Christian humanitarian groups are concerned about their behavior.

[renegade000]

64. holy war anyone?

eom

[kera]

68. a joke

for you

2 friends talking

X : what seems to be the problem Y ? you look run down

Y; well , i gave a lift to a woman and she pressed charges against me for sexual harassment in my car during the trip, but as soon as the judge saw her , he charged me with driving under the influence ...

[Pax Argent]

70. Christ, Conquistadores and Missionaries

When did we hop the TARDIS back to South America circa 1600? The only thing that has changed is the color of the gold (its black now).
:shrug:

[TrogL]

71. Comment on the Churches in Iraq

Ahknaten here! Trogl is maiking dinner!

Churches in Iraq, this is f%^&^% scary!! I use to live in the Middle East. Egypt to be precise. I attended a church there when I went through my Christian phase of my life. The Egyptian Gov. allowed this church to be there on a few conditions. 1) Don't talk about Islam
2) Never even try to convert someone- penalty-death by hanging
3) A spy from the government had to sit through the service and report back to the authourities
4)Don't draw to much attention
5) Taylor the sermons so that it teaches to respect Egypt and her culture

There were many more but I don't have time to list them all.

In Iraq the Shiite and the Sunni at best barely got along. They agree on the execution of missionaries though. Trust me they will act together to get them out of Iraq, soon.

Some of these so called missionaries are really just in the Middle East and Africa on a tourist visa for 1-3 months. I've come across these tourist-missionaries all the time. They don't know the culture, you have to live there 2 years minimum and speak Arabic to know the culture. These tourist think they are doing good but they are naive and basically signing thier own death certificate. Really stupid people!

I work in an African gallery and meet lots of these tourists that call themselves missionaries. Basically thier church will pay for these people, a lot of them youths-well around 18-19 years old, to go to these countries for 1 to 3 months. When you live overseas you know it takes a long time just to settle in! They claim they very effective as missionaries when they can't even get in a local taxi and get around the country! I have met true missionaries and when they are on a mission it is usually life long or will stay in a country 5 years or more.

When bombs start going off in churches and killing Americans don't say I didn't warn you. That's all I have to say to these so called do-gooders. In Cairo at the Maadi Community Church we had bomb threats all the time. It was part of life in the Middle East. The womb of civilization, hot and bloody! If you ask me these tourist-missionaries deserve what is in store for them. I'm not going to take that back either! I don't believe in conversion, it infringes on anothers rich culture that needs to be preserved. Instead I believe in respected others differences and learning from each others culture. So lets wait and see how long before the first bombing of a church or shooting of the parish. Let's just hope the Iraqis are selective in who they kill and down with the missions!


Peace Out

Ahknaten

[jsw_81]

72. Good

I hope they stay. Gawd knows these idiots have been knocking at my door every friggin day. I hope they enjoy Iraq.

[Dulcinea]

143. I'm with you.

I say we bring the troops home & let as many of these mouth-breathers go to Iraq as want to.

[Rockholm]

77. Bye Bye!

[Mari333]

78. Do you realize how these people put our soldiers in JEOPARDY??

GOd this pisses me off!! I called the International Mission Board, who sends these people and I said what the FUCK is wrong with you people???? why in the hell should MY kid have to be put into jeopardy because YOU people think you can evangelize your religion in Iraq..do the Iraqi people want you there?? NO...just SEND food if you want to help but get you and your bibles OUT of there..this is bad bad JUJU and the last thing Iraq foreign policy needs is Baptists running around over there bugging people and making asses out of themselves.
Its our troops that will suffer from this!
Get OUT Baptists and go home ...!

[EdGy]

79. but Bush sees them as part of the occupation forces

these missionaries are part of the whole neo-conservative plan to change Iraq's culture to remake them in the image of the US GOP.

They have forcibly privatized the Iraqi economy.

And they are making sure that US right wing fundamentalist missionaries, taking advantage of people's desperation, are able to do as much damage to the local culture and religious beliefs as possible.

These missionaries don't want to help Iraqis. The food etc. is just a ploy, a way to entrap desperate people, to enable them to "harvest" the souls of these desperate people.

[Comadreja]

102. One of their own pulled the same ploy on our troops

During the invasion one of these Calvinist Conquistadores was offering "free" baths to our filthy and miserable soldiers on the condition they submit to sermonizing. Wouldn't surprise me if this clownish chaplain were now in charge of the new Baptist Martyr Operation.

It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous. -- Gloria Steinem

[savistocate]

131. Exactly right--and first thoughts to rush to

mind how their presence foments incites in the most raw intensifying manner. This is shocking stupidity allowing
civilians there exploiting victims of our military--our govt's destruction vanquishing.
.

Can anyone imagine this doesn't increase many many times over the odds another attack upon Americans on US soil being
the payback.

Whenever a nation abroad shows signs of instability of chaos, very quickly our govt requires civilians LEAVE...so here !! they're
being allowed, encouraged in. In for an activist fueling of flames.
This is INSANE. Contacting our Reps & Senators is called for here..NOW.

[ima_sinnic]

80. some background on these sorry fools:

an article I just discovered early this a.m. by Barry Yeoman, from Mother Jones, May/June 2002;
The Stealth Crusade
Inside one Southern university, Christian missionaries are being trained to go undercover in the Muslim world and win converts for Jesus. Their stated goal: to wipe out Islam.

<snip>
. . . That, he says, is the model for winning converts in the Islamic world: Find another pretext to be in the country. Build friendships with the locals. Once you've developed trust, then it's time to try to gain new believers. But don't reveal your true purpose too early. "How did Jesus explain why he was there?" Love asks the class. "Indirectly," volunteers a veteran missionary. "He'd say, 'Why do you think I'm here?'"

"Did Jesus ever lie?" In unison, the class says, "No."

"But did Jesus raise his hand and say, 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?'" Again, 20 voices call out, "No!"

There are lots of ways to camouflage yourself, Love tells the students. In Indonesia, evangelists ran a quilt-making business to provide cover for Western missionaries, allowing them to employ—and proselytize—scores of Muslims.

The students nod thoughtfully; they agree that Muslims must be reached by whatever means possible. Their zeal is helping to fuel the biggest evangelical foray into the Muslim world since missionary pioneer Samuel Zwemer declared Islam a "dying religion" in 1916 and predicted that "when the crescent wanes, the Cross will prove dominant." Over the past decade, evangelical leaders say, the number of missionaries trying to convert Muslims has jumped fourfold, from several hundred in the early 1990s to more than 3,000 today. Many are sent by the Southern Baptist Convention, with the rest coming from a network of church-supported groups with names like Christar and Arab World Ministries. . . .
</snip>

UGH!! so from this I guess the pretext of "building a water treatment plant," or whatever the hell those latest X-tian "martyrs" were pretending to be doing (remember those missionaries who were killed in Iraq a week or 2 ago?), was a fabrication based on slimeball training like this. As far as I'm concerned these idiots deserve whatever they get. Prime Darwin Award material. And the upside of Darwinism is that those too stupid to survive are also removed from the gene pool.

[Mari333]

81. The muslim world is very aware of these idiots and what they are doing

and this is quite possibly the WORST idea and move this administration could create, and guess who will be the people who are attacked because of these morons?? OUR SOLDIERS! they are the sitting ducks whilst these idiots wander around Iraq selling jesus for food.
the entire muslim world looks at these idiots and says OH REALLY?? YOU WANT TO COME IN AND CONVERT OUR PEOPLE AND EVANGELIZE WHILE OFFERING US FOOD IN RETURN?
this ONCE AGAIN creates even more terrorists then ever.
I point to the White House and Capitol Hill my friends , to show you where the real terrorists reside.
Hey I know!! Let the missionaries stay there and fight and BRING OUR KIDS HOME NOW
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com
http://www.mfso.org

[ithacan]

116. and don't forget this: www.TheocracyWatch.org

How the religious right has hijacked the Republican Party: http://www.TheocracyWatch.org/

This helps explain why the Bush guys are subordinating the safety of US soldiers, and the security of the US and the world, to the desire to convert the heathen Mohammedans...

[Chovexani]

140. I posted a link to that in another thread on the 4 fundies that got killed

Sick, sick little monkeys. No wonder the world hates us.

My heart goes out to the Iraqi people. I can't get peace in my own house from these kinds of jackasses, I can't even imagine what it's like to be starving, without a job cause somebody came in and blew up my country on top of it.

[looking glass]

118. Here's one sap

"When I come here, my heart sings with happiness," said Jonvia Elias, an Iraqi homemaker who attends the National Anglican Church of the Christian Union. "We learn how to love Jesus and feel joy. It feels very young here."

What a pathetic woman. Maybe we should feed her into Uday's plastic shreading machine for daring to enjoy a church service.

Just trying to get into the spirit of the thread . . .

[EdGy]

119. don't be fooled, here's what it's really about:

"I want eternal life," Atass said, "but we also need enough to eat."

I've been in Eastern Europe where the phenomenon of missionaries, both Christian and Muslim, was very common in the poorest parts, including in Albania, but also in Russia.

People in those places with whom I spoke expressed their desperation, that they were attending the services and spouting the "faith" of the missionaries as a way to get access to food, jobs, etc.

I'd like people to think of the case that lolly puts forward above, and think how you would feel if that happened in your town, to members of your own faith/religion.

This is US imperialism pure and simple.

But I understand that lots of people are 100% behind that, in part because they buy into the "white man's burden" version of imperialism

[Bridget Burke]

130. It's bad timing.

Even the many Iraqis who don't miss Saddam want the US to get out of their country. Thousands of them have died & their country is a wreck. The missionaries are therefore linked with an occupying army.

Christianity has existed in Iraq far longer than these little evangelical peanut stand churches have been in business.

[oldcoot]

132. Urban Legend

The human shredding machine story is probably an urban legend like the incubator story.

Did you know that Iraq had Christian churches before the invasion and that this woman probably could have attended one of those churches if she so desired?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

150. Good! Now the insurgents can attack these SOB's and stop assaulting.....

our TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Muddleoftheroad]

154. Wow

One of many who send out the call endorsing terrorism.

With outlandish comments like these, I bet the right just loves DU to provide fodder for editorial pages across the land.

[varun]

155. If the missionaries want to help...

...why not start with the poor at home in USA?

There are many in need here..and charity begins at home.

[ck4829]

157. Shame on the Evangelists

They pushed for war, and Bush always listens to the Televangelists. He probably sent us to Iraq because they told Bush to send us to Iraq. This missionary work messes up everything we're trying to do in Iraq.

Televangelists: "Let's bomb Iraq" "Bomb it now!"
Bush: "duhhh... ok..."

So then an Iraqi loses her entire Muslim family in the war. She's lost, she's confused and then an Evangelical tells her she must convert to Christianity or she won't go to Heaven. Really, if you were her, how would you feel? This missionary work also encourages terrorists, it gives them busy work to harm the Missionaries when they aren't hurting innocent Iraqis. If we're going to sell Christianity to the Iraqis, at least we should go and allow Christians and Muslims to be brothers, instead of promoting only one of them to be true.

[Joanne98]

168. Here's one of their funny web sites

http://www.raptureready.com

[Comadreja]

169. After the Missionaries are chased out....

The pattern of Christian Stealth missionaries in Moslem lands has been a shameful one. The usual procedure is that when a missionary operation is exposed, the government revokes the visas of the missionaries and sends them safely home where they can imagine they have been persecuted for the Lord's name. But guess who really catches it? Their converts, of course. These often lose their homes, their livelihood, and often their lives. For this reason, the reputation of these conversion agents for imperialism is very low indeed. They are seen as treacherous because of their sneaky tactics that end up ruining people's lives.