Toyota disputes critic who blames electronics

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP

NEW YORK (AP) - Toyota Motor Corp. plans Monday to try to undercut suggestions that its electronics systems caused the sudden acceleration problems that led to the recall of more than 8 million vehicles.

The automaker plans an event in which it will seek to debunk a critic who claims faulty gas pedals did not cause the sudden acceleration.

Toyota will aim to duplicate the scenario created by David W. Gilbert, a professor at Southern Illinois University Carbondale. Gilbert told Congress on Feb. 23 that he was able to recreate sudden acceleration in a Toyota vehicle by manipulating its electronics.

The company is calling in the director of Stanford University's Center for Automotive Research to try to refute the claims. Toyota said Stanford professor Chris Gerdes will show that the malfunctions Gilbert produced "are completely unrealistic under real-world conditions and can easily be reproduced on a wide range of vehicles made by other manufacturers."

Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20100307/D9E9NM802.html

[LiberalFighter]

1. How will Toyota rig their demonstration?

[PSPS]

2. Edmunds.com is offering $1 million to anyone who can recreate the problem on demand.

[ShockediSay]

31. The Internal Computer needs a brake override

Saw that article very recently

Waazamadda? cost too much?

[blue97keet]

3. unrealistic under real-world conditions?

Isn't it the purpose of validity checking software to prevent "unrealistic" out of range, weird and freaky signals from being translated into valid commands to do something such as open the throttle? It looks as though professor Gilbert simply executed a valid "bad day" test case.

[IDemo]

4. Gilbert is pretty well debunked in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gQWGZ8uBw&feature=related

To sum up for those who don't want to watch the 8:53 minute video - Gilbert's scenario involves an extremely unlikely combination of events involving open wires which connect at precisely the right amount of resistance (200 Ohms) and simultaneously contacting a ground or 12V DC line, remaining in contact for the duration of the sudden acceleration event.

Edit - A better explanation -> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/

[ingac70]

7. Denso pedals are in the Lexus ES 350

The car that that family was killed in on the 911 call.

IT ISN'T THE PEDALS!

[IDemo]

14. Likely neither the pedal or the wiring in that case

http://www.cartype.com/pages/4310/lexus_es_350_accident_investigation

On August 28th, 2009, California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor and three members of his family tragically lost their lives on a highway near San Diego California, while driving a 2009 ES350 loaned to them by a local Lexus dealer.

"Our deepest sympathies go out to the friends and family of Mark, Cleofe, Mahala, and Cleofe’s brother Chris Lastrella."

Preliminary information from law enforcement investigators indicates that the cause may have been an all-weather floor mat from a different Lexus model which, if installed incorrectly in the ES350, could cause it to interfere with the accelerator pedal.

All-weather floor mats are installed by dealers or customers as an accessory item.

Driver’s floor mat interference with the accelerator pedal is possible in any vehicle make with any combination of floor mats when the floor mat is not properly secured or if it is not the factory designed floor mat for the vehicle.

Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc. takes public safety very seriously and will fully cooperate with any investigation. "We believe our vehicles to be among the safest on the road today".

"We are instructing all of our Lexus and Toyota dealers to immediately inspect their new, used, and loaner fleet vehicles and we urge all other automakers, dealers, vehicle owners, and the independent service and car wash industries to assure that any floor mat, whether factory or aftermarket, is correct for the vehicle and properly installed and secured".

The fact remains that Gilbert's explanation rests on a very unlikely scenario.

[ingac70]

16. Floormats my ass.

The lady who testified before Congress had issues with the same vehicle, and neither putting it in neutral nor throwing it in reverse did anything to stop the car.

Different model, but a Lexus....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIeoewbPdB4&feature=related

[On the Road]

27. So the Transmission Didn't Work Either?

[Javaman]

29. Nothing worked. check out her testimony...

She tried everything. She keep pumping the brake in all gears, nothing worked.

Finally, she tried applying the emergency break, it slowed the car to 35, but it was still going and burning through the brakes.

Then it just quit, like nothing was wrong.

Something really screwed up with the computer on that car.

[ingac70]

34. Denso pedals....

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/runaway-toyota-prius-reported-in-california-2010-03-08

[ingac70]

37. .........

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/runaway-toyota-prius-reported-in-california-2010-03-08

[Xenotime]

5. Toyota needs to be shut down..

Its time to bring some charges against the company and put them out of business.

[ingac70]

9. +1

[WriteDown]

15. Nationalize them! nt

[ingac70]

17. They already are, by Japan....

Japan subsidies their companies.

[WriteDown]

18. Seize all there factories and use them to manufacture GM vehicles! nt

[liberation]

20. At least they are direct and honest about it...

... plus they do not require them to produce killing machines in return for the subsidy.

Sans the defense contracts, a big chunk of American industry would be kaput. Of course, we don't call it subsidies... but it seems only Americans tend to take such levels of double think seriously. Ah, marketing... the new newspeak.

That being said, Toyota needs to be held accountable in a big way if indeed they tried to weasel their way out of these quality issues and liabilities.

[ingac70]

25. ????

Mitsubishi makes combat tanks.

[FarCenter]

6. If Toyotas with Denso pedals don't have the problem, then it is likely not the electronics

Toyota builds cars with gas pedals from two companies: Denso and CTS Corp.

If the cars equipped with Denso pedals do not have the problem, then the problem is likely with the CTS Corp pedal and not the electronic throttle control electronics.

On the other hand, if cars equipped with Denso pedals also have the problem, then the problem is likely in the electronics.

NHTSA must have data on which cars have the reported problems, but I haven't seen any analysis.

Admittedly, if the Denso pedals send a resistance signal while the CTS pedal send a pulse width modulation signal to the electronics, there might be a software problem in interpreting just the CTS type of signal. But this should be a fairly small and localized portion of the code.

[ingac70]

8. Cars with Denso pedals DO have a problem.

The Lexus ES 350 in that 911 call where that family died. Does that ring any bells?

[Tesha]

21. Do you understand that it is possible that there can be more than one cause of this problem?

And that it is entirely possible that the CTS pedal was one cause
and floor mats were another? The Lexus apparently had problematic
floor mats.

Tesha

[ingac70]

23. That is a BS lie by Toyota....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIeoewbPdB4&feature=related

[IDemo]

24. The customer in the Youtube link is either mistaken or lying.

There is no way, mechanically or electrically, for the pedal to "suck down to the floor", which he mentions several times. Nothing connects to the pedal itself - no throttle cable, no airline, no vacuum line, no hydraulic line. The signal lines exit the pedal assembly (both the CTS and Denso units) at the top, well away from the bushing on which the pedal pivots. I'm frankly surprised the technician didn't call him out on that.

If it were truly the perception of his wife that the pedal were being "sucked downwards", it is more than likely again that darned floor-mat bearing against it, or she was pressing it down herself with her foot and unaware of it in her state of panic.

And yes, the above poster is correct. In any reasonably complex system, multiple fail modes exhibiting the same or similar symptoms can and do exist.

[Tesha]

26. Thank you. (NT)

[ingac70]

35. Denso pedals....

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/runaway-toyota-prius-reported-in-california-2010-03-08

[IDemo]

40. Denso or CTS, same story

Both rely on magnetic/Hall Effect sensors to detect the position of the pedal and relay it to the engine control computer via electric signals. Think of a volume knob on a radio, or a light dimmer switch. No throttle cable. No air line, vacuum line, or hydraulic line. Nothing exists within either unit that might cause a pedal to physically "suck down" as the customer in the YouTube video insists, several times.

Unless the car was named "Christine", anyway.


http://www.ctscorp.com/automotive/datasheets/703.pdf

http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/gem/etcs/accelerator_pedal.html

[Tesha]

41. Your link's not loading for me today; perhaps you can summarize it?

And while you're at it, answer the question I asked you? You *DO*
understand that there can be more than one root cause for a given
failure symptom, right? Like floormats *AND* pedals?

Tesha

[ingac70]

10. kick.

[Kip Humphrey]

11. I'm thinkin' cars are hacked & infected with malicious virus via car's WiFi capability

[Po_d Mainiac]

12. software is probably based on windows

Of coarse the cars are going to crash :hide:

[IndianaGreen]

13. I saw the ABC News report on the faulty software

in which the car accelerated and there was no error message on the electronic box.

This issue needs serious research, and for Toyota to go into a bunker mentality, it will be bad for their business.

[CRF450]

19. How hard would it be to go back to cable operated throttle body's??

[Tesha]

22. They had failure modes as well.

Before redundant return springs were mandated, broken return
springs commonly caused "stuck open" throttles.

And there are some pretty good technical reasons for switching
to electronic throttles that operate under the control of the Engine
Management computer.

Tesha

[mahatmakanejeeves]

28. Not hard at all, as such a system was in use over twenty years ago.

But you would still need a throttle position sensor.

Let's say you had a cable or linkage or something mechanical connecting the gas pedal to the fuel injection control assembly. You would still need to let the ECM know the position of the throttle. You would end up with what was in use in the electronic four-barrel Rochester carburetors found in GMs in the late 1980s. I rebuilt one of these carburetors for my 1989 Oldsmobile, which had a Y-code 307.

There is a throttle position sensor sitting up on top of the carburetor. It is connected to the ECM by wires. The throttle plates are opened via a cable going back to the gas pedal. The throttle position sensor notes how far open the throttle plates are, and the wires send that information to the ECM. The ECM's memory has a look-up table that takes that information and assesses it, along with other input information it receives, into telling the engine how far the timing should be advanced and so forth.

To the best of my belief, the Y-code 307 was the last carbureted engine in use in passenger cars in the US. It lasted through the model year 1990, which was the last year in which Oldsobile station wagons had that "three box" look. In 1991, fuel injection was introduced, and the wagons got the rounded look. I'm sure you remember the Chevrolet police cars with the streamlined look.

That engine has air hoses everywhere. Just one leak is enough to ruin your day. The carbureted 307 is legendarily difficult to get through an emission test.

Everything old is new again.

[Tesha]

42. You don't need a carb; there's no problem with fuel injection and a cable-operated throttle either.

My '91 Audi 200 turbo-quattro had just such a system complete
with the throttle-position sensing potentiometer that you described.

But there are technical disadvantages to such a system:

o The potentiometer has a limited lifetime; you'd prefer
a more-reliable position sensor.

o The cable has its own failure modes.

o The return springs can fail.

o If the car has "cruise control", you *STILL* need some
kind of motor to drive the throttle.

o The operator can stomp on the throttle or suddenly release
the throttle, rapidly altering the operating regime of the engine
and making it hard for the anti-pollution systems to keep up. You
may even get backfiring if the mixture suddenly leans out and
fails to ignite in the cylinders. With a purely-motorized throttle,
the throttle only opens and closes as fast as the rest of the system
can keep up with it; no dashpots are required!

o And yes, a well-programmer electronic throttle can be arranged
to "back off" if the driver stomp the brakes.

It's for all these reasons that "drive by wire" has become so
popular.

Tesha

[CRF450]

43. My 01 Trans Am and 04 Dodge Dakota has the cable, they're not carbed

Its only untill recent few years that the electronic throttle body started being used in cars, and now they're pretty much in every new car and truck out their. I don't care much for them, they dont make a car anymore efficient nor better performing. All that little servo motor does is open and closes a butterfly valve to control how much air goes into the intake in conjunction to how much the driver pushes down on the pedal.

[pipoman]

30. This is smelling more, and more like Audi II every day..

operator error..

[ingac70]

32. Are you saying idiots disproportionally prefer Toyota/Lexus?

They are having the exact same issues in Japan.

[pipoman]

33. I am just finding it Déjà vu like

the similarities between this story and the Audi story of the 1980's. The rarity of a reoccurring problem with hundreds or thousands of engineers working on but can't replicate, nor definitively determine a cause is, well, incredibly rare...after this amount of time is nearing unbelievable. After months and months of testing Audi, and ruining their reputation, it was determined that operator error was the only possible answer. Time will tell I guess.

[ingac70]

36. ............

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/runaway-toyota-prius-reported-in-california-2010-03-08

[pipoman]

38. dupe

[pipoman]

39. Yeah, and?

[Hepburn]

44. IMO...

...it's not the floor mats or the gas peddle or...IMO...the CHP driving instructor who died in a crash -- along with all his family -- sure as hell could have dealt with something like that.

JMHO