Report: Test can't re-create 'runaway' Prius

[JI7]

Source: cnet

On March 7, James Sikes called 911, saying the accelerator in his Prius was stuck and he couldn't slow down. The event was thought to be related to mechanical or electronic glitches that, in rare cases, may cause uncontrolled acceleration in the Toyota Prius.

But in a memo drafted for a congressional panel, technicians with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota were unable to replicate the problem on Sikes' car, according to the AP report.

"Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor, the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down," the report said. The memo went on to say that it would not be likely that Sikes's gas pedal would be stuck while he was slamming on the brakes at the same time.

A similar conclusion was reached by Edmunds.com on Friday, which CNET reported, based on an interview with Dan Edmunds, director of vehicle testing at Edmunds. The car Web site conducted a test on a Prius in an attempt to replicate the problem that Sikes had claimed.

"It doesn't add up," Edmunds told CNET on Friday. "I...held the throttle wide open with my right foot and then I pressed on the brakes with my left foot. When you overlap the brake and the throttle in that car, the engine decouples, and the brakes take over completely," he said.

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10468196-64.html

[DJ13]

1. That test only works on a hardware malfunction

If its a software glitch its not necessarily repeatable.

[Dreamer Tatum]

2. Says you nt

[DJ13]

3. Yeah, says me who isnt worried about protecting a corporation

[Dreamer Tatum]

6. Read it and weep...I guess you drive a car made by a coop?

"In this case, knowing that we are able to push the car around the shop, it does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time," according to the report for the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.


http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/14/lawyer-rebuts-doubts-runaway-prius-driver/

[DJ13]

7. You're right, its all a sham

Toyota wasted millions recalling cars, and customers who had their cars serviced under the recall that still accelerated afterwards are just out to scam them.

Damn, you caught on to their grand plan.

[Dreamer Tatum]

8. Nope, not ALL a sham. Just a lot of it. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. The ABC report was pretty well gutted here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gQWGZ8uBw&feature=related

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

17. You don't accept the fact that there will be some scam artists out there?

Not everything is black and white.

What is Edmunds' stake in all this to protect Toyota? I think all future Toyota owners have a right to full disclosure, and if that also means scam artists who try to take advantage of this situation are exposed, it's better for the consumer.

[harun]

35. Look up the definition of scam. What does this driver gain from this

"scam"?

A scam involves some benefit to the scammer. What was this driver getting out of doing this? He isn't suing. Just because he is in debt doesn't mean this helps him get out of debt.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

121. He's not going to sue NOW.

Not unless he's an idiot.

[pattmarty]

40. So you're a fucking mechanic. CHP says they believe the guy...........

...........and plan no further investigation into the incident. I have worked on many cars and "push the car around the shop" does not prove a goddamn thing. On top of it you quote Fox "news"? That alone should be "proof" it did happen.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

103. The NHTSA says there was not significant brake wear...the CHP does not do this

kind of investigation and have turned it over to those who do (NHTSA)

[splatshot]

133. The same CHP...

...that lost a brother to a stuck accelerator. The same CHP that profiles. That CHP believes this lowlife? Go figure. And what's wrong with us fucking mechanics? Listen moron, learn the basics about the car before you spout off.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Software will also fail repeatedly if the conditions are reproduced

That is basic S/W engineering. The problem is sometimes the conditions are not obvious which may be the case here.

[MARALE]

44. I was a software test engineer for a whil

and yes, software testing is repeatable. BUT there are sometimes many variables that come into play that are not always tested. there are many times a software routine will bring in many factors and count on getting a variable from another routine. it is sometimes assumed that you will get a certain factor, but I have had cases where the assumptions are wrong. software is very complex and it is a known fact that software is a lot more unreliable than hardware. if the conditions are not exactly the same, they will not get the same results. Period.

[pipoman]

84. Wouldn't the chances of reproducing a problem increase

to a point of certainty with some level of investigation by thousands of engineers working in concert and independently with much to gain by solving the mystery? talk about a resume' enhancer, being able to take credit for determining the issue with Toyotas.

[MARALE]

110. Sometimes the issue with software is

That so many people touch the software and there are assumptions that are made. Engineers get pulled off a project many times, and there are a lot of different ways of writing code to do one thing. Even with thousands of people looking at it, that does not mean that they think the same way the original engineer did, and if there are many writing software, then getting them to work together is sometimes hard because everyone has their own approaches to logic. software it not very straight forward as many people here seem to assume. Software is a lot more fallible than mechanical systems. you can just do a lot more with it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

102. That is why software can not use the serial hardware reliability model

and goes with a different statistical approach. Its really an acknowledgment of the Law of Cybernetic Entomology...that there is always one more bug.

[pipoman]

120. Give the teach a gold star...

my only wish is that people would look at this problem logically, without bias for or against this particular brand. You seem to do just that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

125. My bias is for process rigor not tabloid self righteousness

There are make/models that have higher rates that any Toyota, but due to its market share, they are more visible with Toyota. It does need to be seriously investigated and understood and not just for Toyota. Given the difficulty in replicating it, I would bet on a multitude of factors, and not a single technical smoking gun. Lets not forget that human factors is as much a discipline as software development. I believe some of the problems lie there.

The really irksome thing is the tabloid approach taken by some including ABC, whose so called proof was bogus from the get go to anyone who understood the technology. Kane/Gilbert got debunked by multiple sources, but I like the job done by Car Questions on YouTube best (http://www.youtube.com/user/carquestions and http://carquestions.ca). NHSTA and others are looking into this seriously. I'll wait until they have something concrete.

As for gold stars, someone gave me one today. Wish I knew how to thank them personally.......

[jody]

130. Software can never use a hardware statistical model because the population size is one (1) v. a

finite population (n > 1) for hardware.

It is cost prohibitive to do an exhaustive test of every combination and permutation of software inputs for systems used on complex systems.

An interesting question is "Did Toyota software engineers use Computer-Aided Software Engineering (CASE) tools or were some modules of the code designed by the "You start programming and I'll go find out what they need" approach?

[rickford66]

137. software glitches

I work on flight simulators. We see many anomalies which are not always repeatable. We also stimulate real aircraft avionics which have their own "built-in" glitches. I've owned two Ford pickups which occasionally race up. Since they were both 5-speed manuals I had no trouble controlling them. If you have dozens of inputs you cannot always predict the outcome of the software logic. I've seen module tests fudged to pass by using the actual results as the expected results. Did Toyota engineers fudge their tests? I've worked with ex-automotive software engineers who came to work on simulators. I wasn't too impressed with their work. One example was one engineer programming the flaps on a 747-400 sim. We showed him how we could confuse his software by moving the flap handle back and forth quickly. He responded that we shouldn't do it that way. As if no one would ever move the handle back and forth quickly. Did he go to work for Toyota? Maybe.

[Mithreal]

15. Definitely repeatable.

In my experience programmers are fairly resistant to acknowledging until you show them you can reproduce the problem consistently.

Until then, they blame user error and all sorts of other factors not under their control.

[PuppyBismark]

49. Pruis Drives Need to Know How Their Car Works

I have a 2010 Prius.

I have tested putting it into Neutral while driving and it works just fine. At that point, one could engage the brakes and stop the vehicle. If that did not work, one could turn off the car. The Prius has a keyless ignition system, so in order to turn off the car when it is moving, one has to hold down the power button for more than three seconds. (This is a little known feature of the keyless systems by Toyota and is implemented this way to prevent inadvertent shutdown by touching the button.) Then the car would possibly not have power steering, but could be steered. The brakes would work with the power turned off, I tested that too.

Some of these run away car problems could have been avoided had the drivers understood how the car works, but nobody reads the manual. The big unknown is how to turn off the car with the keyless ignition.

[pipoman]

118. I think there should probably be a standard key

or some kind of kindergarten kill switch just so the masses don't kill themselves because they don't understand anything new. I don't consider that a defect....and people here have a hard time believing that this may be caused by driver error...

[Nihil]

129. Don't know about that ...

> some kind of kindergarten kill switch just so the masses don't kill
> themselves because they don't understand anything new.

I'd rather they kill themselves (just themselves) than continue to be
allowed behind the wheel of a kinetic energy weapon whilst lacking the
intelligence to RTFM first.

I'd prefer to see an *increase* in complexity but for the ON switch rather
than the OFF one ... if they are too dumb to master it, they have just
ruled themselves off the "capable to drive" list.

There comes a point where sensible people should stop trying to cater
to the ever-increasing stupidity of the general public.

:shrug:

[lob1]

4. The policeman that stopped the runaway Prius said he could see the brakes

smoking. If that's true, his braking-accelerator override didn't seem to be working. However, I am suspicious that the driver wouldn't put the car in neutral when the 911 operator told him to. He mumbled something about being afraid putting it in neutral would somehow cause it to wreck, but the man was speeding down a fairly busy freeway with nothing to lose. I don't understand why he wouldn''t put the car in neutral. It would've let him stop.

[vadawg]

9. ill take the cops word for it, but i have seen a car with smoking brakes

going over a hundred, during a chase during peiods of accelaeration and hard braking you can have red hot smoking brakes all the time even when they are not applied or the driver is just tapping them intemittently... all the cop did was tell what he saw,

[Mithreal]

13. movies don't count

just in case

[vadawg]

14. rofl not talking about movies dude, talking about real life

hell ive had my brakes glowing so bright my partner thought i was on fire.... :)

[FlaGranny]

16. Many years ago

I had a Chevy that "ran away" with me. The engine would race and roar and the brakes would not stop it. Within seconds I figured out I had to put it in neutral. I was alone and no one told me to do it. It was just common sense. Turning the engine off makes you lose the power steering and brakes. It's a very scarey experience, which has caused me recurrent nightmares about not being able to stop my car at a stop sign or traffic light ever since.

[awoke_in_2003]

73. your chevy's gear selector

was mechanically linked to the transmission- not so on the Prius.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. I have read that examination of the brakes did not support the driver's statements

which makes the CHP statements questionable as well.

[vadawg]

22. as i said upthread, i can pretty much make my brakes red hot and burning

without really burning of to much speed, its pretty common in high speed chases, so the CHP may have been correct in that he smelled burning but the in the reasons for it he may have been mistaken.


woohoo shift change, 3 days off work, gotta go..

[Atman]

87. Actually, the investigation CONFIRMED that the brakes were worn down.

I said elsewhere in the thread, if the Prius's electronic braking system automatically disengaged the throttle when depressed, how did the brakes get worn down, and why did the investigation confirm it?

.

[d.gibbs]

117. The brakes were worn down because he was too cheap to put in new pads

He was broke and hurting.

[earcandle]

5. Maybe these events are satelite driven at random, just because they can?

Cheney and folks playing god with peoples lives, causing havoc
in the trusted industries?

Just a long shot. 

[splatshot]

134. An extremely long shot.

These reports are mostly hysterics, a few outright frauds & a even fewer still, based in something resembling reality.

[earcandle]

138. Mike McConnell's plane went down because someone messed with the computer inside the engine.

IN th end he had no control.  I heard the same thing happened
to Wellstone.

Why not put it in cars as well.  If the drive is to make us
scared and insecure
so we'll take sides and kill each other to prove that
armaggeddon grows near,
well, what the hell.  It just another game for those pulling
the strings.

Armageddon is another long long shot gaining momentum and the
weather to go with it.
The weather is undoubtedly satelite maneveured, seed clouded
and controlled. 

Hysterics?  I would be hysterical if my car went out of
control too!  Or my plane?
Or the flooding patterns in my town, or the earthquakes in my
land... are they caused
by submarines shooting missiles into the plates of the earth
down-under?  

There are a lot of crazies with money who want this third war
with an obsession.
We need a lot of angry crazy people to cause something so
destructive as a third world war.

Have you checked your own sanity scale lately? 

[CreekDog]

10. That exactly what I was saying!!!

:hide:

:rofl:

[Tx4obama]

11. BUT lookie here....

Excerpt:

Several events usually combine to cause problems with cars, and it's difficult to reproduce them, Hoff said.

"It's going to make it really hard to find, because you've got to line up the multiple effects," he said.

The congressional memo said both the front and rear brakes were worn and damaged by heat, consistent with Sikes saying that he stood on the brake pedal with both feet and was unable to stop the car. But if the fail-safe system worked properly, the brakes wouldn't have been damaged because power would have been cut to the wheels.

Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on.

Full article here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20100315/us-runaway-prius/

[OneBlueSky]

12. well, SOMETHING's wrong with a lot of these cars . . .

and the fact that Toyota is dismissing the possibility of electrical problems out of hand leads me to believe that's where they probably originate . . . also makes the most sense logically, at least to me . . . I'm only interested because I drive a 2002 Camry that supposedly is on the list of "this could happen to you" cars . . . if it does, I sure as hell hope that shifting into neutral (it's an automatic) works . . .

of course, in my case they'd likely blame the left-foot accelerator that I drive with (and have been for over 20 years) . . . such is life in the United Corporations of Planet Earth . . . U-COPE (not much else you CAN do) . . .

[pipoman]

31. There are 117 cars on the

"this could happen to you" cars list. It is driver error...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

[pattmarty]

42. TURN THE KEY TO OFF (not lock) and put the vehicle in neutral........

.......does the trick all the time. Most people (yeah and I'm talking "guys" here too) panic and don't realize how easy it is to do. Being a "car" person, I have had to use the "key off" thing in the past.

[pipoman]

61. This is the one fault

which so far has been proven with the prius, that is you can't just turn off the key, you have to push and hold the start button for 3.3 seconds which would undoubtedly confuse many people, even experienced drivers who had not read the manual.

[pattmarty]

66. Okay, you got me. I have never driven a Prius or known anyone.........

.............that has one. BUT, it is not just the Prius, it is across their lines even the Lexus. And again, Toyota HAS RECALLED CARS FOR THIS PROBLEM. What gets me is why are you defending a car company?

[pipoman]

70. Again I ask

Have you even bothered to click the link I posted over and over? 117 makes and models sold in the US...

Ford has 2 models in the top 5, as does Toyota..

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

[enlightenment]

72. Logically, would it benefit Toyota to NOT recall their cars?

People are in such a foaming swivet over this that it's more likely it would be corporate suicide.

Issuing the recalls at this point is not so much 'proof' of a problem as it is common sense - since people are already after them with torches and pitchforks. Is there a problem? Probably. Is it as massive and widespread as people are making it out to be? Probably not. Doesn't it raise anyone's eyebrows that SUDDENLY - within a span of a few months - cars that are several years old and have never had an issue are developing this problem? If it's a software problem, did they encode a 'kill date' or something similar, so they'd all go bad at one time? If it's a hardware problem, did they manufacture the piece to break in 2010, regardless of when it was made?

And yes, I am defending them. I don't work for them, but I think this whole thing has ratcheted so far out of control it's ridiculous. This seems to be more about crucifying some 'ferrin' company that doesn't have union employees than any real concern about their product.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Atman]

76. Lexus has the same issue...push-button start which you can't just "turn off."

In fact, one of the problems with the Camry and Lexus was that you not only had to push and hold the START button for 3.3 seconds (yes, press the START button to shut down, shade of Windows!), but that you had to use the on/off button on the KEY FOB! Since you don't need the key fob to actually start the car, it is very possible you don't even know where it is while you're careening down the highway at 90. Maybe it's just in your pocket -- so you have to unbuckle your seatbelt (again, while careening out of control), find the key fob, then press the button for 3.3 seconds! It is a ridiculous, unsafe way to have to stop a car, and it is even more ridiculous for people in this thread to be blaming the victims for not knowing how stupid Toyota's electronic design is.

.

[pattmarty]

83. Thank you for the clarity.

[pipoman]

90. I don't disagree with this.

Do you know if the Lincoln Town Car has the same type of system? It is the #2 most reported UA make/model in the last 5 years.

[pattmarty]

91. A: You are not an expert. B: You keep failing to acknowledge.........

.....that Toyota DID recall cars for a throttle sticking problem. For christ sake, I have worked on (mostly) non computer cars years 50-01 and have experienced throttle sticking problems. I have not worked on the newer "drive by wire" cars. Most auto makers have had recalls, this one is really no different OTHER than toyota has backtracked somewhat from their original statements. I don't want to get censored (oh, I mean deleted again) so I am ending it here.

[Atman]

92. Maybe Ford is acknowledging the problem and not lying and stonewalling?

That seems to be all most people are saying here: Toyota has had an abysmal record of lying, backtracking and stonewalling about this. Maybe Ford doesn't.

.

[pattmarty]

94. God, finally someone that maybe can get through.

[pipoman]

96. Uh, no, there is no recall that I can find on Lincoln Town car for UA

I believe that this is a driver error phenomenon which is known and expected by car makers. Please show me where Ford is acknowledging a mechanical cause for the apparent UA problem with Lincoln Town Car or Mercury Grand Marquis, the #5 most reported car for UA.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pattmarty]

93. "Most" cars use the drive by wire system nowadays. I am somewhat..........

.......of an "expert" in that I have worked on ALL my cars for over 40 yrs and some drag cars also. So I do know of where I speak. The newer cars (say 1995 up) I only work on as far as items that are basically the same as the old cars, ie brakes, starter, alternator, belts the simpler things. I do not have (nor can I afford) a lot of the "computer" tools that are needed in the newer drive by wire cars, so I do not do the engine/transmission work because of that.

[splatshot]

135. No...Sikes was/is lying.

The brakes were worn, in fact, damaged by overheating & over application but not during Mr. Toads Wild Ride. He did over several days in order to make it appear that he was " on the brakes". The guy is a lying lowlife.

[joshdawg]

18. It would appear that

Sikes wanted and got his fifteen minutes of fame.
Did anyone see the video of him while he was describing the "incident?" I've seen that same look on G.W.Bush when he was talking about weapons of mass "distraction."

Just sayin'.....

[Blue Gardener]

23. Typical response from mechanics...

"Well, we can't figure out what's wrong unless it happens when we have the car".
I had a car that would die at stoplights. This is the answer I got several times until it finally happened when they had the car. I'm sure they thought I was just some dumb woman that didn't know what I was talking about. Women get this attitude a lot from mechanics (not all mechanics, just the asshole ones).
I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[OneBlueSky]

86. "we can't figure out what's wrong unless it happens when we have the car" . . .

and even then it's no sure thing . . . true story . . .

I was driving a 1990 GEO Prizm that my mom had bought new about a year before she died . . . being handicapped and doing only a little part time work from home, I didn't drive it much -- just local stuff, food shopping, errands, the library, the occasional movie, etc. . .

when my mom purchased the car, she also purchased an extended bumper-to-bumper service contract that basically paid for anything that might go wrong with the car up to a certain number of miles or five years . . . I was nowhere near the mileage, and I think was about 3.5 years into the contract, when the engine started eating oil like crazy . . . I'd drive 50 miles and be down over a quart; 100 miles and down three quarts or more . . . and nobody knew where the oil was going . . . the dealer ran all kinds of tests, and couldn't figure it out . . . the emissions were fine so I wasn't burning the oil, it wasn't leaking from the car, and it wasn't leaking into the engine . . . everyone was absolutely baffled . . .

so I let the service manager take the car and drive it to his home (which was over 100 miles away) and keep it for the weekend . . . the following Monday, he reported that the car had eaten over two quarts of oil just on his ride home -- and he had no idea where it was going . . . they called their master mechanics and anyone else they could think of, they took the engine apart, and nothing . . . no excess oil anywhere . ..

long story short . . . after I threatened legal action, the dealer gave me a complete, brand new engine -- block, head, everything right from the factory -- something they did NOT want to do . . . they installed it under the service contract (much to the chagrin of GM, I'm sure) and it solved the problem -- but no one ever did figure out what was happening to all that oil . . . they were able to reproduce the symptoms, but they still couldn't figure out the disease . . .

[pipoman]

24. Driver error

this driver error phenomenon has been known at least since the Audi incident of the 1980's. I believe this is a smear because Toyota has overtaken the big 3 in vehicle sales in the US and humiliated the big 3 in the planned bail out of the big 3 known as 'cash for clunkers'.

I wonder if any other makes and models have reports of 'unintended acceleration?...

Well I'll be damned, imagine that, at least 117 makes/models have reports of UA..

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

[Atman]

25. That's just dumb.

Who is leading this conspiracy? Reports of other autos experiencing UA isn't the point. Toyota's lying, cover-up and stonewalling are the issues here.

[pipoman]

26. No, the belief that Toyota could hide the cause is dumb

you do realize that there are hundreds or thousands of engineers investigating the cause of these incidents who have everything to gain by finding a manufacturer defect, yet cannot. They cannot reproduce this. Not in one single vehicle has anyone been able to reproduce this. Is Ford covering up their issues on the 7 models they have in the top 20 vehicles with UA reports?

[stuart68]

27. great point

All these engineers with a reason to find the problem cannot, not to mention all the GM, FORD and Chrysler engineers who want to and are trying to find it.

Every crappy driver now has an excuse. The most shocking to me was the woman who tearfully testified to Congress that, at over 100mph, she found her purse, found th ecell phone in th epurse and dialed her husband to chat. 100mph is pretty fast on a wide open freeway, let alone durign daylight hours.

Not saying she is not telling the truth, just havign a little trouble figurign out whay she has not been recruited by NASCAR.

[pipoman]

29. Is that the same woman who sold her

'run away car' with 3,000 miles on it without disclosing this incident, then when the subsequent owner was contacted the car had 30,000 miles with absolutely no problem what so ever?

[Atman]

77. Thus is the nature of RANDOM occurrences.

They're random. By their very nature, you can't force a random occurrence.

.

[pipoman]

82. Thus is the nature of human error too, no?

[eilen]

126. Randomness happens

Back in the 1980's my mother's Subaru accelerated for no reason. She turned it off and lost the power brakes and power steering and just managed to steer it away (with all her strength as the power steering was gone) from a crowd of people at a small airport and crashed/stopped it into a huge metal wire fence. She was sore for a week and had to go to the chiro but was otherwise unharmed. I don't remember how fast it went but no one could figure out how it did that or why. The car never did that again.

I think she had purchased this car new in the mid to late 1980's. I'll have to ask her again about it, it was a long time ago.

[Atman]

34. Two issues: random occurrence, and the fact the burned-out brakes.

How do you expect a random occurrence to be easily replicated, especially within the short period of time since the last Prius incident? I am still of the belief that this is software-related, and I defy you to tell me when your Mac or PC will freeze up next. That is the nature of software glitches.

Second, how do you explain the FACT that the investigators of the recent Prius incident acknowledge that the brakes on the man's car were indeed burned out? If stomping on the brakes automatically disengages the Prius engine, how was this possible? Hmm...maybe it was the ELECTRONIC braking system in the Prius, and a glitch in the software which switches the brakes between the two modes.

What you're also missing is that the investigators don't just say they cannot replicate the incident, they also state they cannot DISPROVE it, yet, either.

[pipoman]

38. I think the fact that almost every make and model

have reported cases of UA, combined with not one single recreation of this issue ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, combined with my knowledge of braking systems and cars in general, combined with my own observation from watching people drive, combined with the vast, vast number of drivers, combined with the Audi fiasco of the 1980's..I don't think it is mechanical, electronic or electrical.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

[Atman]

53. So you know all about the new all-electronic systems in the Prius?

This isn't a standard braking system. It is software controlled, not mechanically controlled. There are two braking systems. Toyota itself acknowledges problems with it, and has issued a recall because of it; the car uses one method of braking at low speeds, and electronically -- not mechanically -- switches to a different set of brakes at higher speeds. Toyota has already issued a recall because the software was not properly switching between the two systems when the driver pressed the brake pedal. Yet, because you apparently know something about brakes (which I think is part of the problem in itself!) you think it has to be the drivers' fault. EVERY driver who has had this problem was too scared or too stupid to realize he was stomping on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal?. Really? Seriously? Despite the fact (which you ignored in your reply) that the NHTSA has stated that the brakes on the last Prius incident were burned out? How do you account for that? Even IF it is always driver error, as you say, why didn't THIS driver's car stop when he stomped on the brakes, which eventually burned out? I don't get your logic. Brakes stop the car, unless it's a driver error...yet the driver stomped on the brakes enough to wear them down, in a car which has software controlling the brakes and engine, yet the car didn't stop, despite your saying that brakes always stop the car unless drivers are stupid.

Okay...run with that -- Drivers are stupid, cars are infallible, software always functions as planned.

:eyes:

.

[pipoman]

60. No, I don't know anything about the Prius

Did I miss something or is this issue about more than the Prius?

Why didn't this driver do as he was told and simply shift into neutral? Someone simply has to realistically duplicate the issue and I will be much closer to believing, yet not one single engineer or technician on the planet has been able to do this? Really? There are some smart mf'ers out there who could use the $1 million reward, but alas, no one can do it? You're right, I can't believe, on faith, in humans over faith in repeatable mechanical anomalies.

[Atman]

74. The car is virtually ALL electronic! Don't you get that?

You don't mechanically "shift into neutral" with a Prius. You flip a switch which sends a signal to an electronic component that then instructs the transmission to move into the neutral position. That's the whole point! SOFTWARE controls the switch to neutral, yet you keep referring to "mechanical" issues. The Prius is a computer on wheels. The mechanics are almost entirely controlled by software. Do you deny that software can be poorly written or encounter unexplained glitches? Has your computer ever crashed inexplicably? Were the keys (which are mechanical, but don't actually DO anything but send electronic signals to a computer chip) all frozen in their last positions when it happened?

You seem to be deliberately overlooking or ignoring the issue of SOFTWARE as opposed to MECHANICAL issues. And since you admit you know nothing about the Prius, why do you keep yammering on about how knowledgeable you are as you blame stupid people for not knowing how to stop a car they drive every day?

[pipoman]

78. Only the Prius, this is about far more than just the Prius

I don't know if there are problems with Prius or not and really don't care. This is about the phenomenon of 'unintended acceleration' in several models, which have been thus far in this decade has been only assigned to Toyota even though there are reports almost identical in virtually every single make and model, including 20 Fords and 25 GM models.

As for this particular vehicle, apparently the initial investigation has found inconsistencies in the story. If later it is determined that this incident was an electronic issue, or mechanical I will yield. What must be demonstrated for you to acknowledge that maybe there is a phenomenon of human error which may be responsible for most if not all cases of UA?

[Daemonaquila]

81. Repetition of some anomalies isn't so easy.

Was the guy not thinking well, assuming the problem was real? Yup. Not everyone handles even moderate stress well.

However, it's getting somewhat irritating to see the guy vilified over the fact that 2 hours of road testing didn't reproduce the error in that car. Assuming he (and others with similar problems) aren't all scam artists, he started it up and drove it HOW many times for HOW many miles and HOW many hours with no problems at all? Expecting that the same glitch would occur on a software-controlled system within 2 hours is not realistic.

I was a software developer, tester, etc., etc., etc., for many years of my early working life. Some problems can be reproduced at the drop of a hat. Actually, a lot can be. When you start adding multiple layers of hardware into the mix, it starts getting much harder. I'll call to mind the Airbus A320 and some related aircraft that are also fly-by-wire, with concerns that some of the crashes were caused by software glitches including, famously, flight 447. A number of the crashes have been attributed to pilot error in *using* the fly-by-wire system, with only the crash at Habsheim, France being a clear-cut computer control problem.

I also tend to take the scientific approach that problems should be reproduceable - but given the statistics of these few incidents, a couple hours on the road is a bloody silly test.

[pipoman]

88. But the larger issue,

which has attracted thousands of engineers, and 10's of thousands of hours of testing has yet to produce one single example? Not even one worldwide? Surely this has to be nearly unbelievable to any scientist/engineer? At the same time nearly every single make and model sold in the US has reports of nearly exact symptoms and have for decades. This doesn't ring of user error?

If applied to a software program you have distributed to millions of people, you receive complaints from say 1/100th of 1% of a specific error which you can duplicate through misuse of the software, but cannot, after many many hours of testing, get to duplicate without misuse. Would you not attribute the issue to user error? Of coarse nobody dies if their program shuts down, so you probably wouldn't have government agencies and media publicly pushing you to fix the unfixable.

[pattmarty]

100. Combined that you really do not know what you are talking about...........

...........when it comes to cars. Admit it mr expert, you do not have a fucking clue.

[pipoman]

107. You are the one who is a shade tree mechanic

at least I have actually worked professionally as a brake and suspension mechanic and have an associates degree in an automotive field and have attended continuing education at Hunter Engineering 5 times. Doesn't make me an expert on this, but somewhat more knowledgeable than someone who, is, say...I am somewhat..........of an "expert" in that I have worked on ALL my cars for over 40 yrs and some drag cars also.

[pattmarty]

113. Whoo, hoo................. I am fucking impressed. Midas, huh?

[stuart68]

28. Toyota is forced to prove the unprovable

They don;t want the problem if only for financial issues.

If Toyota finds no problem, they are covering up. If they find the drivers are negligent, they are heartless. I guess they should just make up a problem then officially fix it. They need to learn from our esteemed legislators.

[pipoman]

30. Precisely

[Tesha]

43. That's precisely why they will absolutely positively fit the "brake over-ride" feature...

...to all of the firmwares. Not only is it a genuinely
good idea, but it's something they can actually *DO*
to all of their drive-by-wire cars.

Tesha

[Romulox]

58. Wait a minute--Toyota ALREADY annolunced a "fix" for its sudden acceleration problems...

Are you suggesting they were lying when they identified a shim as the "fix" for the problem? Or just engaging in PR? :silly:

[pattmarty]

47. You MUST have a lot of stock in Toyota and a certified mechanic too.

:sarcasm:

[pipoman]

48. I do have a strong automotive background

no dog in this fight aside from the obvious.

You do realize that nearly every single make and model of vehicle in the US has reports of UA, no?

That not one single recreation of this issue has EVER been done despite the hundreds or thousands of engineers working tirelessly on it AND the $1 million reward now offered for anyone who can duplicate this issue?

That nearly identical issues ruined Audi in the 1980's were forund nearly unanimously to be driver error?

That Ford has 7 models in the top 20 models for reports of UA?

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

Driver error.

[pattmarty]

51. The only driver error is panic. Why panic if "nothing" happened?

Since you're an "expert" you would know of people having sticking gas pedals/linkage and not knowing to turn the key and put it in neutral, right? Toyota is up to their neck now in this shit and so far have hid the fact that their very could be a software or hardware problem with their drive by wire system. They have issued recalls for the problem, so how is it now that there is no problem? You'll defend a foreign maker but I didn't hear hardly anyone defending the domestic makers when they had problems. We need regulations/laws to recall any consumer product if it may cause a danger to the user, now there basically are none. Now tell me again WHY Toyota recalled certain vehicles for a fix? They have a problem, you know it, and they made it worse with all the finagling and denying.

[pipoman]

54. I never claimed to be an expert,

just a critical thinker. How about you answer my questions before we begin throwing others in the mix.

Did you even bother to click the link? I doubt it or you would realize, that at least as far as UA is concerned, if we "We need regulations/laws to recall any consumer product if it may cause a danger to the user,", EVERY single make and model of vehicle sold in the US would be on recall including 20 Ford models, 25 GM models, etc..

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deacon]

32. I just went for a joy ride in mine...however, my intention was to just back out the driveway (joke)

n/t

[erpowers]

33. Not Surprised

I am not surprised by this information. This guy's story did not make sense. What Sikes told the 911 operator did not seem to add up to what he did in the car. He said he had done everything he could to stop the car, but once he pulled the emergency brake the car began to slow down.

[Atman]

delete

dupe post

[Atman]

56. The EMERGENCY BRAKE is just that...an override of the ELECTRONIC brakes in a Prius.

Raise your hands...who here uses the emergency brake on a regular basis? Or can even find it on their car right away, much less in a panic situation? Face it, with the ubiquity of automatic transmissions in automobiles, hardly anyone sets the parking brake anymore, even if you should. Lots of cars have the handle in the center console...neither of mine do. I'm guessing, but I'm pretty sure mine have the pedal models, on the upper left under the dash.

Point being, just because the emergency brake eventually stopped the car as it is designed to do, doesn't automatically mean the driver wasn't panicked and didn't think to use it.

.

[madmom]

36. Years ago a had an suv that would stop dead without warning. It happened a

couple times in a local intersection (luckily no traffic was coming). It didn't happen all the time just intermittently. Took to manufacturers garage, they couldn't make it happen so their conclusion...woman driver. I got on the phone to the company and let them know in know uncertain terms they were about to be sued, went to the dealer (who agreed with them) and had it out in the showroom with other customers present. FINALLY they decided to REALLY check it out, injection control module was replaced and all was fine. Don't tell me this kind of stuff doesn't happen they can and will make it someone else's fault!

[One_Life_To_Give]

37. Simplistic test, and simplistic expectation.

Ok they did the simple and obvious test.
How about adding some stress to the CANBus and/or EMC, etc.

The relatively low rate of occurrence compared to total number of vehicles and cumulative hours of operation. Make it relatively unlikely that replication will be easy. It can take many weeks of targeted testing/stressing a system and still they may not find the root cause.

[pipoman]

41. But

when you consider the tremendous number of Toyotas on the planet, the number of engineers and others who have everything to gain by being able to assign fault to someone, and the fact that nearly every single make and model of vehicle in the US has reports of ua, I think it is so completely remote that this can't be determined...it is much, much more believable that human error is to blame.

[One_Life_To_Give]

101. While some are Human Error

Certainly some are Human error. Some of the elderly have been driving into stores etc. for years. It's not just because of Toyota that it's happening. However assuming that years of reports about only certain models is not a result of an as yet discovered bug is a stretch. Obviously Toyota is responding with the current recalls, to at least a statistical anomaly, if not a probability that something is contributing to the phenomena.

I am not in a position to speculate on what Toyota may have already done to try and identify a Root Cause. In my area with Industrial Electronics it can be as much an art-form as science to try and deduce the probable mechanism and subsequently prove it.

[pipoman]

109. How often does a

reoccurring phenomena go undiagnosed, for decades, especially a reoccurring problem which is industry wide and causes fatalities? All of these cars have the same problem apparently.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

[DallasNE]

39. I Told You A Few Days Ago

That the driver's story didn't pass the smell test and not be surprised to find out his story falls apart. Two items led me to that conclusion. First, this driver had a run-in with his local Toyoto dealer over the dealer not "fixing" his car because it was not on the recall list for a sticking gas pedal. Second, the officer observed that when the car was finally stopped that both the gas and brake pedals where in there normal positions.

[Roland99]

46. Why wouldn't they be in "there" normal positions?

Has every case of unintended acceleration involved either a brake or gas pedal remaining down or something?

[Atman]

59. Since it's an ELECTRONIC problem, the position of the pedals would have no bearing

The software doesn't control the position of the pedals, the driver does. There is no reason to expect that the pedals would remain depressed. That is part of the problem here, people keep confusing purely mechanical issues with purely electronic issues...when your computer crashes, do all the keys remain in the same position as the moment of the crash?

.

[Roland99]

67. Exactly! I can't tell you how many times I've not been able to reproduce software or hardware errors

and I develop software for a living and I've setup and configured my share of servers in my time, too.

This guy is being vilified for some reason.

[DallasNE]

68. A Quick Google

Shows the description to be of the gas pedal getting stuck in the "wide open" position (Toyoto's own words). http://www.toyota.com/recall/videos/hybrid-vehicle-stopping-procedure.html

[Atman]

71. I don't believe Toyota's "own words" for a moment.

They've left me no reason to believe them.

.

[high density]

45. This specific instance seems pretty bogus

I mean he was concerned that the car was going to "flip" if he put it in neutral. At best he's an idiot, at worst he's a scam artist.

[Skink]

50. I can text at a hundred.

find a radio station at 110.

[pattmarty]

55. But, can you grab that lit roach between your legs???

[Skink]

127. do that first am I right ?

[pattmarty]

131. You indeed are a professional, I salute you!

[Romulox]

57. 54 people dead, and they can't recreate ANY of it so far. What does this prove?

These people not dead after all? :wtf:

[pipoman]

63. Uh, no

Maybe that some people actually have accidents (sometimes even fatal accidents unfortunately) which they, themselves, are at fault for.

[Romulox]

64. OK, but nothing in the OP proves that point, or any other point.

Your statement is a truism that again allows us to draw no firm conclusions about this or any other case of sudden acceleration.

Repeat: Toyota claims that it cannot conclusively find the cause of ANY of these sudden acceleration incidents (though it paradoxically has implemented severl "fixes" by now, including a shim and and an advisory that customers drive without floor mats.)

[pipoman]

65. They have been ordered to fix a problem

which nobody, including the accusers can point to the problem. They are faced with a damned if you do/don't situation. The task of proving a negative. So of coarse they are grasping at straws.

[Romulox]

69. You're confusing the word "problem" with the word "cause"....

Logically, it's very important to distinguish these two concepts. There is self-evidently a problem. Toyota's inability to identify the cause and fix this problem doesn't make the problem go away, either logically or practically.

"The task of proving a negative. So of coarse they are grasping at straws."

Right. Which is impossible. I wish some of the Toyota boosters, upthread, understood this! :silly:

[pipoman]

75. Why can nobody

diagnose the "cause"? Even those thousands of engineers and technicians which have everything (including a $1 million reward) to gain from determining the cause?

Why does every single major make and model have reports of nearly identical UA symptoms?

It would be hard to diagnose mechanically or electronically if say, 1/10th of 1% of drivers error, causing similar issues.

[Romulox]

79. Wait just a minute--what were those shims about if nobody can discern any problem?

This is what the writer meant by "oh what a tangled web we weave..."

If there is no problem with these cars, then Toyota shouldn't have admitted to one in Congressional hearings. :shrug:

[pipoman]

85. They were/are being pressed

to shit the cause..they are attempting damage control. Why aren't there hearings on, say, the #2 car for reports of unintended acceleration, that being the Lincoln Town Car?

[Romulox]

89. So is every tortfeasor--that's not good enough. nt

[pattmarty]

97. Why don't you answer the question about the "phony" fix? Has the...........

.........Lincoln been recalled? How many Toyotas have been diagnosed with the problem? How many Lincolns? C'mon, get fucking real, expert.

[pattmarty]

95. Well, you're the "expert", why don't you give us some of your...................

.............automotive expertise on "sticking throttle syndrome"?

[pipoman]

108. If there is such a syndrome

I am quite sure it could be duplicated by someone, yet not one of the thousands of engineers has been able to recreate this problem...not one on the entire planet....my money is on human error as I have said over and over. Now if someone ultimately reproduces this issue and can demonstrate the error, I will gladly acknowledge the problem, I only want some proof. What will it take for you to admit that the issue is most likely human error?

[pattmarty]

114. Look expert, you seem to have the minority opinion here, Toyotaman.

[pipoman]

115. Therefore I have to be wrong huh?

Sounds like shade tree, dirt tracker logic right there..

[pattmarty]

123. Well, at least I actually worked on cars and got my hands dirty and......

...........bruised over the years. Beats working at an Autozone.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DebbieCDC]

104. I thought there was something hinky about this story from the beginning

And got flamed on this board, wanting to know if my check from Toyota had cleared.

Well suck it folks, sometime the victim ISN'T the victim.

[Kablooie]

105. Recreate it by putting a guy behind the wheel who's in debt and wants to scam a corporation.

[Psephos]

128. The obvious answer. n/t

[Silent3]

111. If it's a software bug, software bugs can be notoriously difficult...

...to reproduce. Things you'd never think should make a difference can be contributing factors to a bug, and without know what all of the factors are, you can try and try but never reproduce the bug you're hunting for.

[pipoman]

119. I can see your point

for sure. I do, however, doubt that thousands of engineers and technicians spending tens of thousands of hours with much to gain by reproducing this can't do it, somewhere on the planet.

[Magleetis]

112. When I first heard of this story

My gut feeling was that the guy was going for the deep pockets of Toyota. I'm sticking with it.

[d.gibbs]

116. The guy didn't maintain his brakes and let them go bad

Maybe that's why.

[Fastcars]

122. Not sure about this particular incident....

but I honestly believe that Toyota does have a problem that is going to be a real pain to fix.

The odds are very slim that a 2008 model Prius would be in need of brakes. Heck I have a 95 Cobra turbo car that is just now in need of brake pads after 60,000 miles.

[AngryAmish]

132. This reminds me of the defect in the 737 rudder system

For well over a decade Boeing said it was impossible for a rudder reversal to happen. They had dozens of engineers, both inside the company and outside. NTSB even said it could not find the fault.

1991 Colorado Springs - all lost.

1994 Pittsburgh - all lost.

Other incidents (see here occurred without loss of life until Boeing agreed to a fix - and the fix may not work.

Yes, rare and nonreplicable events occur due to design flaws.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

136. I LOVE my Prius- best car ever and I fill it up every 2 weeks or so

Our family owns three:

Generation 1 (son), 2 (daughter) and 3 (Mom & Dad). Never had a bit of a problem with any of them.

They are wonderful cars, but just like any auto there can be a lemon.

We had a Mercedes 300E that used to just conk out on the freeway - no warning just no gas to the engine.

Dealer said it was the O2 sensor, they fixed it multiple times to no avail. We finally sold it at a loss and we've been

driving Toyota/Lexus products ever since.