Kucinich: 'A firm no' (on health care bill)

[sabra]

Source: MSNBC

With President Obama today campaigning for health reform in Dennis Kucinich's congressional district, Kucinich's office reiterated to First Read that "he is a firm no," according to spokesman Nathan White said.

The health bill isn't progressive enough for Kucinich, who voted against even the House-passed bill, which included a public option.

Read more: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/03/15/2228258.aspx

[Bumblebee]

1. Primary him. End of story.

[AnOhioan]

6. Too late for this election cycle, but thanks for playing!!

[Bumblebee]

9. Recall him then as GOP's best friend.

[AnOhioan]

11. Lemme know how that works out fior ya

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

408. It'll work out for those who want to ignore corporatism . . .

[DesertDiamond]

83. I call him the PEOPLE'S best friend!

[Mithreal]

117. +1

[emilyg]

162. +2

[Iowa]

171. +3

[tango-tee]

182. And one more!

[Stevepol]

193. +4

[RoccoR5955]

219. +10e100! n/t

[Threedifferentones]

311. DK rocking as usual

[flyarm]

374. +5!!

[Enthusiast]

326. +4

[nightrain]

181. DK is working for all of us, some don't recognize it.

[Roland99]

215. The UnRec birds in their DLC Dandies ways are out in abundance

Ya know...just a few years ago, this thread would have been recced up to 500+ by now.

[nightrain]

308. yeah, possibly. And the recs are less important than the active support of DK to me.

[Roland99]

330. That was intended more as commentary on the makeup of DU in general

Seems it's become more centrist/corporate in overall tone compared to a few years ago.

More trolls here? Disenchanted conservatives coming here but still holding onto their ideology?


Or purposeful disruptions?

[jonathon]

357. DU is a different place now - and many of the most progressive dems left

[defendandprotect]

411. I think many more will be leaving. . . and as $$ drops for Dems . . .

maybe someone will begin waking up --

Campaign finance bribery has to be acknowledged for what it is -- BRIBERY!!

Time that we began a little demonizing on this very important subject!!

[Name removed]

406. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

261. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rabies1]

278. I'm with you! I think he should hold out for a REAL healthcare option.

I'm glad he's standing firm on this - a basket half-full is useless.

[Crunchy Frog]

364. We'll all be dead by the time we get a "REAL" healthcare option.

[defendandprotect]

412. And will insurance and Big Pharma care . . . will Obama/Rahma care? Will DLC care?

[No Elephants]

547. Especially if no one fights for one. Then again, people may die for lack of a real public option.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

570. Yes and Kuchinich will be buried in his grave along with his "PRINCIPLES"

Dennis please listen to all of us who have seen health care options

defeated time after time.

This is a step towards CHANGE WE BELIEVE IN!!!!

[RBInMaine]

303. The "friend" who accomplishes NOTHING for the people. Kindly grow up!

[ronnie624]

462. Accomplished?

You mean like Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama and every bought and paid for congress member, champions of the status quo, all?

Please.

We need genuine progressive leaders. The long term survival of our species depends on it.

[Buenaventura]

346. +++ Thank you Dennis! +++

and yes - the PEOPLE's best!

[theFrankFactor]

350. + Infinity

[sallyseven]

360. It will be 20 years before any health care bill

will pass. He4 is a snotty jerk and deserves to lose his next election.

[RufusTFirefly]

369. They keep serving us crap and we're supposed to say "Yummy!"?

Go Dennis Go!

(I wonder what DU apologists would've said about Wayne Morse and Ernest Gruening, both Democrats, who voted against their party's president on the Gulf of Tonkin resolution.)

[DesertRat]

370. +5

:thumbsup:

[TankLV]

373. x100

Dennis is operating on the HIGHEST principle here - sad to say most aren't.

It's debatable whether we'd be better off with or without this bill.

I'd like to see it just to for the following two reasons:

1) It would drive the repukes and LIEberman crazy.

2) We get to rid this country of rush pigboy limpballs once and for all.

And those are aside from the fact that it will have the "no previous conditions" struck down.

I'm coming around to think that we can DEMAND that they improve it later - within the next few years at most.

[defendandprotect]

409. +7 + 8 === +1000% -- thank you!!

[troubledamerican]

415. + 1 more

[golfguru]

436. +100

[SoCalDemGrrl]

571. Sometimes change has to come in increments and DK should realize this

IDEALISM WORKS ONLY SOMETIMES.

PRACTICALITY IS SOMETIMES NECESSARY......

DK --- PLEASE VOTE YES

[liberation]

130. So you find a Dem acting like a Dem threatening, I assume the GOP accusation is pure projection

LOL

[Lerkfish]

150. gotta love the lack of logic there -- if you're too progressive you're a conservative.

however, if you bend over backwards and give the GOP everything they want, you're democratic hero!


up is down

[Iowa]

173. +1

[suzie]

344. +2

[Ignis]

235. No kidding. It's like Bizarro World at DU sometimes these days.

I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise, given how many have embraced the "War is Peace" meme.

[skeptical cynic]

312. Yes, war is peace, poverty is wealth...

and mandated insurance is healthcare.

[True_Blue]

458. LOL!

Welcome to DU!:hi:

[Ignis]

540. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

413. Very funny -- and very tragically correct -- !!!

if you're too progressive you're a conservative.
however, if you bend over backwards and give the GOP everything they want, you're democratic hero!


up is down

[golfguru]

It's called blind worship n/t

[MisterP]

564. conservadems and loyalists care about form--NEVER content

that's why they'd literally be OK with Bush if he had a D after his name--'cause, y'know, that's another D, and thus the Party is stronger, and thus more progressive bills will be passed, because only the Dems pass progressive bills. This is why their greatest fear is "the spoiler"--not the conservative takeover of 1988-present.

if DK is against a bill that most of the Dems and their Leader support, he's against the Dems, and thus with the GOP: the actual content of the bill is utterly irrelevant to them. This is also why it's the "pragmatic" centrists and conservatives who have the most fanatical followers: those for Dean '04 or Kucinich or Edwards '08 weren't busy trying to erase IWR votes or damning critics; in fact, lefties hold their candidates' feet to the fire and vocally criticize them when they feel they've made a bad move!

then come the BS arguments: "we can fix this bill later" (even though starting from scratch is easier, since political capital is unspent), "Kucinich is in this for his ego" (though only one of the people involved has a literal personality cult), "some parts are good" (only a la Buzz Windrip's Trojan-horse platform from "It Can't Happen Here," and there's no reason single payer or strong PO wouldn't give us all the same things--and in 2010-11 rather than '14), "lefties only care about FEELING GOOD" (sheer projection: politics to them is about kissing the hem of the Leader's cloak and literally weeping in the poll booth that you can vote for someone so wonderful)

and a lot of them are just eager volunteers or operatives, like Rafael Trujillo had and Israel has (anyone remember Serdar Argıç from 1994?)

[waronbanks]

250. GOP's best friend?

This is about corporate rule...not GOP or Dems. You can choose to pretend this bill doesnt force every American to buy BS insurance policies that wont be there when the customer needs it (the corporate dream)or you can see the truth behind this charade and stand against the corporate rulers (the corporate nightmare). I know which choice I would make if i were in a position to vote. Go ahead and back the corporates...but dont slam those of us who refuse to give in.

[defendandprotect]

414. Corporatism is the GOP and DLC's ' best friend . . .

[grahamhgreen]

441. Why can they NEVER realize they MUST give us a public option or Medicare expansion????nt

[NJmaverick]

8. Yes get someone in there that will actually get things done

[FBaggins]

49. Why not get "someone" in OTHER positions

that actually tries for something WORTH "getting done" ?

[Roland99]

212. What is worth "getting done"? A gift to ins. cos. in the form of 30 million captive new suckers?

No thanks.

I'll take someone who will stand on principle in the face of corporate rule.

[sabrina 1]

275. You never responded to my question about that talking point!

Maybe you missed it, AND the information that debunked it. How is Kucinich less effective than the majority of Democrats in Congress?

And try to drop the talking points. This is a discussion board, so let's discuss your claim, unless of course you can't back it up.

[Lorien]

320. Like one of your DLC whores? What more would you like to have done for our

corporate overlords?

[Roland99]

22. Yeah, let's get someone in there that will do the bidding of the Corporations

yeah...that's what we need.


:eyes:

[Hansel]

241. He's in there already. His no vote gives them the green light

to do whatever they want. They know nobody can stop them now.

[Roland99]

243. Say WHAT?! Are seriously arguing FOR this bill?

for mandated coverage with much higher premiums for everyone?

[liberation]

255. The logical dissonance is strong with this one...

[defendandprotect]

417. Obama gave "green light" to ignore PO, single payer, universal care . . .and to throw our $$$

at insurance companies and Big Pharma . . .

and that "green light" also came in private meetings, private deals!!

Yeah -- that's where the best work for the people gets done!!!



:eyes:

[ixion]

40. Yeah, gotta replace those ethical politicians with Blue Dog puppets

:eyes:

[Mithreal]

54. +1

[niceypoo]

78. Yeah

Get someone further to the right in there instead! Those damn left wingers!!

[Mithreal]

129. Obama? Who would have the fortitude. He has secured much of the corporate money.

And average Americans will accept his marketing appeals again.

[sabrina 1]

158. Send him to the Senate. This is the kind of commitment to

what is right for the people we need more of. Not the flip floppers we now have willing to bow down to Corporate America:

Way to go, Dennis ~ sending out a request to my email list to ask for donations for his campaign.

Now where are the rest of the so-called Democrats?

Btw, what do you disagree with him about? Where is he wrong?

Once again not expecting a response to those questions from anyone who is anti-Public Option.

Just like the president who has yet to explain why, with Repubs out of the picture and reconciliation now in play, there is no Public Option in the bill. He cannot offer any more excuses now, all the obstacles have been cleared. No wonder he will not address it. What a disappointment this president has been.

[RoccoR5955]

224. Screw that... ELECT HIM PRESIDENT! Kucinich/Sanders 2012! n/t

[sabrina 1]

273. Yes!! n/t

[defendandprotect]

421. Ah . . . a humanist in the White House . . . you mean, people before profit????

Would never happen --

but I'd love to see Kucinich in the Oval Office --

how about Bernie Sanders for VP?

[RoccoR5955]

536. I've been saying Kucinich/Sanders or Sanders/Kucinich 2012 for a while

I don't care which one is Pres. That ticket would win me, and a whole lot of people over. I think that they could get a clear majority, if the MSM would FACTUALLY report their positions on the issues.

[defendandprotect]

580. Agree . . . thing is the Dem Party is now so corporate that they wouldn't permit it . . .

Kucinich and Sanders would have to walk away from the Dems and take

a stand in another party -- what then?

Plan B, C, D?

[defendandprotect]

420. Didn't Obama feign a move to the left last week in promising to put PO in AFTER

the bill passes?

That sounded to me like Nixon's secret plan to win in Vietnam!!!



love your posts!!

[pattmarty]

175. You're a fucking liberal?

[SlingBlade]

209. Agreed, We need Profressive challenger to Obama

[RoccoR5955]

They keep primarying him... He keeps winning because he works for

WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations!

[SoapBox]

229. Ditto...

Dennis...I loves ya!

BUT, if you screw this up...it will be time for you to go.

[Lorien]

Wake up and smell reality. Kucinich is one of our (the people's) only advocates

we don't want any of your DLC scum in his office.

[Enthusiast]

325. I will support Kucinich!

He is right!

[Crunchy Frog]

362. Plus 100!

[Left Coast2020]

477. STOP THE PRESSES!!! PUBLIC OPTION IS BACK IN BILL!!!

Unfucking real!!!! Can you believe this???????

Go to Title II--Subtitle B on page 116.
In pdf.
http://budget.house.gov/doc-library/FY2010/03.15.2010_reconciliation2010.PDF

F-ING WOW is all I have to say!!!!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[cyclezealot]

508. Don't make me choose sides between Obama/Kucinich

as party leader, cause if you do it will be Kucinich.. Thanks to Act Blue, I just sent a contribution to DK in support.. We have a conundrum . Vote for a lousy H.C. plan or stick to our guns we toted last Fall when the bill passed the House. No public option, it's a no go..
You need click on Michael Moore's interview to the upper left side of this DU screen. Example of why the Senate H.C. reform sucks.. There are no limits if pre-existing conditions for four years and then it's only a fine for the insurance companies. Not a prohibition..
If I were in DK's position, I'd likely vote yes, but I'd have to hold my noise and fear my constituents will feel I betrayed them when they discover the specifics of this plan for voting aye...We said last Fall , no option , no plan.. DK need be praised for his consistency to principal.

[Xithras]

531. Better idea, Primary Pelosi

You want to move the party to the right by removing its more left wing elements.

I want to move the party to the left by removing its more right wing elements.

You want to beat Republicans by becoming one.

I want to beat Republicans by becoming better than one.

[No Elephants]

545. Yeah. We've got to rid ourselves of every last damned Democrat in elected office.

[ProSense]

2. Perfect

"The health bill isn't progressive enough for Kucinich, who voted against even the House-passed bill, which included a public option."

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mithreal]

131. A quote that is misrepresentative.

[sabrina 1]

286. Once again you display your ignorance.

You have been provided with Kucinich's own words as to why he voted against that bill. His reasoning was excellent and I totally support him on having done so.

No wonder you will not respond to legitimate quesions. You KNOW you are wrong, and you know Obama is wrong, so you cannot engage in a discussion. But do you really think your robotic and silly, childish little DLC talking points are in any way convincing?

I do thank you though for making Kucinich threads so informative. You have done more for Kucinich in terms of providing opportunities to debunk those talking points than all those who agree with him combined.

Talk about failure to 'get anything done'! :rofl:

[vaberella]

478. Basically, so he's not for the PO too. n/t

[No Elephants]

552. Wrong.. Please see Reply 543.

[No Elephants]

543. Midleading.. Read the next paragraphs of the article at the link:

"Unfortunately, the president's plan, as it currently stands, leaves patients financially vulnerable to insurance companies. It requires all Americans to buy private health insurance policies, while failing to ensure those policies do what they are supposed to do -- protect people from financial catastrophe caused by injury or illness. ...

"Absent a strong public option or legal protection for states that wish to pursue single payer, the bill that the president is proposing is a step in the wrong direction. Even with the few modest improvements in the bill, the insurance companies will still have dozens of loopholes to deny care and continue to find ways to leave Americans with the unpayable bill."

He voted against the combination of a strong mandate and a lame, delayed public option. He would have voted for a strong public option, though, obviously, he would prefer single payer.

[drdtroit]

3. One sole representative with some balls! n/t

[Bumblebee]

7. and health insurance in case his balls get sick.

[drdtroit]

14. I want health CARE not health (good luck getting your claim covered) insurance!

[liberation]

132. Citizen! This has nothing to do with you, your interestes, or what you want....

They at ze DLC know best, now shut up, and do your duty as loyal repu... I mean loyal Democrat. Anyone who dares making ze president look bad will be dealt with swiftly.

[drdtroit]

482. Must I now show you my papers! LOL

[mzmolly]

177. If he had "balls" he'd give up his own access to health insurance coverage

until his constituents were covered.

"Plainly put, I will not accept health insurance coverage until everyone I represent in Wisconsin and across America is given the same opportunity." Rep Steve Kagen

[midnight]

347. I would like all of our elected officials to do this. Wisconsin is so lucky to

have Mr. Kagan....

[mzmolly]

351. I agree fully.

:hi:

[tomp]

507. that's a noble gesture but not required of anyone to be taken seriously.

is kagen vociferously opposing obama's piece of shit? that is the question.

[Walk away]

378. All of the republican Senators are voting the same way...

Do they have balls? Maybe they are the real progressives.

[No Elephants]

546. No shortage of testicles in Congress. Some say too many. Not much courage or heart, tho.

Turns out...no correlation whatever between balls and courage.

[SharonRB]

4. He needs to stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good

I understand he's standing on his principles, but sometimes we need to compromise and start with baby steps to get something done.

[WriteDown]

15. Yes, even if it is a step or two backwards, we must get it passed.

Then we can say, "Thank gawd it passed!"

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlbertCat]

35. But that's just mindless DU rhetoric

Speaking of mindless rhetoric, how about the pretending that this bill is anything but a joke?

But it will pass and that will be reality.

But, even though he can't win, we need reps who call it as they see it and to remind us the only reason the bill is so complicated is because they are trying to reform without changing anything. We need to be reminded (though we shouldn't) that "we'll fix it later" is laughable at best.

[Mithreal]

59. Better Than Nothing! Can't wait for the next Presidential election.

[No Elephants]

553. "Better than nothing" sums up a lot these days.

Either that or "Better than McCain Palin."

[Mithreal]

58. +1 Independents just want to see a bill, don't care what's in it.

[pocoloco]

27. Got to keep our powder dry.

[seabeckind]

55. Wait! It's that loser Rahmism quote again!!! n/t

[Mithreal]

57. Is bad the enemy of the good? Of course, not.

Don't let the bad be the enemy of the good.

[seabeckind]

76. A rewording: When half-assed is the best you can do n/t

[Mithreal]

91. +1 We only have the House, Senate and White House.

[DesertDiamond]

89. A bill that forces me to pay money to the insurance industry is NOT GOOD!!!.

It'd be one of the worst things they've ever done. Well, among the many things destructive things they've done.

I have said before and I will say again. I do not use western medicine so this insurance would do me go in. But I would be happy to pay into a government run option. But to be forced to buy insurance from the ripoff insurance industry? No, this is NOT GOOD!!!

[Mithreal]

125. +1

[ooglymoogly]

127. That is the poison pill that the few good things in this bill are

meant to disguise. That and the half trillion taken from medicare (no matter how parsed) will doom us come next election. The elderly become partyless and very angrey and vendictive, when medicare(their lives) is seen to be treated like a football. Witness the MA election.

[sabrina 1]

277. He's already compromised on the 'perfect'

The 'perfect' was Single Payer which is what he really wanted. Dems started out with a compromise, which was to be a good PO. He got on board with that.

What he is being asked to do now is to not let the compromise be the enemy of nothing at all for the people. No person of principle should be asked, by Democrats especially, to compromise on a compromise which was far from perfect to begin with.

[suede1]

392. But this bill isn't good. It's bad.

[defendandprotect]

429. . . . like wanting the Constitutional right to no wiretapping . . . it's a pony!!!!

Cut it out, folks --

next thing you know, you'll be wanting re-funding of wars -- and, then, no wars!!

[No Elephants]

551. That's Rahm's played out lie. The perfect is single payer. The good

is strong public option. The cruddy is strong mandates and no single payer, plus a tax on good plans.

Kucinich will accept mandates plus a strong public option. The article linked in the OP says that.

He does not trust that this will be a "start" that will get improved upon. Many agree with him on that, based on history. And some think this will be so costly and offer people so little that it will set back real health care reform.

If more people voted against it, they'd have to come up with something better or face the consequences.

[tridim]

5. DK to 40 million uninsured: fuck you.

Me to DK: fuck you.

[shotten99]

12. Well said.

[Mithreal]

61. Is it opposite day again?

[liberation]

256. Nah, it is just the convergence of the morning and evening shifts...

[defendandprotect]

422. Loved it . . . thanks for the laugh!!

Evidently a heavy investment here by DLC?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

13. I am uninsured and I agree with Dennis - the bill makes Insurance cos MORE powerful

last thing we need to do is strengthen the insurance companies.

This bill gives Ins Cos exactly what they want and still leaves us at their mercy.

[drdtroit]

16. Yep! Just another ponzi scheme for the uber wealthy. n/t

[defendandprotect]

423. Agree -- and it cements insurance companies and Big Pharma into health care!!

[ProSense]

21. Yeah, regulating the insurance companies make them more powerful

What a crock. It's a good thing no there are counters to his bogus claims.

[Mithreal]

62. Uh huh, that is definitely representative of the argument.

I admire perseverance, but must get better at representing.

[girl gone mad]

86. You mean the way Wall St is regulated?

A lot of good that's done..

[defendandprotect]

430. More like the way Pfizer was regulated . . .!!!! Whistleblowers finally got them!!!

[liberation]

137. Please, add "regulation" to the list of words and terms which don't mean what you think they mean...

... thanks.

[ooglymoogly]

178. Hmmm,...is that the Orwellian use of the word?

To Regulate: Make laws for the majority but not the few.

[pattmarty]

186. Uh, why exactly did Rep Grayson introduce the "Medicare buy in"..........

..........bill? Get fucking real, the bill is a fucking piece of shit. You could cut 2000 pages from this crap and just have regs stating you can't refuse someone because of pre-existing conditions and can't drop someone because they got expensively sick (rescission). Why would you or anyone want to institutionalize privatization into our healthcare system? It's bad enough already, why make it worse?

[ooglymoogly]

188. +1 nt

[defendandprotect]

431. + 2 . . .

[sabrina 1]

315. And once again you produce a link to

a deceptive post of yours. So once again, I will ask you why you are linking to a PDF outlining the president's policies and claiming, falsely, that those are the words of Rep. Grayson? I've asked you several times and received no response from you.

[defendandprotect]

424. Aren't these the same insurance companies Obama has been calling "evil"?????

[True_Blue]

465. Insurance companies are the problem not the solution. nt

[HughMoran]

25. Kill other people to satisfy you

Not too selfish, are we?

[liberation]

139. If you are so concerned about all those people, shouldn't you be advocating universal coverage?

How is a bill, sans the requirement for universal health coverage guaranteed via public funding, supposed to cover uninsured people under a purely for-profit system?

Awaiting your hand wavy explanation...

[Mithreal]

159. Don't be silly.

[HughMoran]

279. I did repeatedly for 30 years

Where the fuck have you been and what kind of nerve does it take to assume that I was wanting anything less? This is the best compromise our 535 Congresspeople, who can't seem to agree on anything (and 40% of which are all NO Republicans) could come up with. What is YOUR solution - I don't mean some idealistic pie-in-the-sky with whip cream on top - we all want that - what is your PRACTICAL solution to this problem?

I await your hand-wringing non-answer with baited breath (not!)

[defendandprotect]

425. We're concerned enough to actually want that dirty word . ."UNIVERSAL" health care . . .

rather than a near miss for those who can barely afford health care because of

the "evil" insurance companies -- and a total miss for the "poor."

Let's have one UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM -- single payer/no insurance companies --

that TREATS EVERYONE EQUALLY.

[mbperrin]

30. Exactly right. This bill would actually make it HARDER to get

single payer later. The scream would go up, "Don't scrap the new system! It hasn't had a chance yet!"

Single payer is all that will work, all that is being used where healthcare results are up: longer lives and lower infant mortality.

[eyepaddle]

68. A bit of a quibble: single payer isn't the "only" system which could work.

It is the one I prefer, but there are many other types universal health care, ranging from single payer (Canada) to Fully socialized (Britain) to a mix of public and private (Australia) to heavily regulated private (Switzerland). It would seem that there are many different approaches and the two things they have in common are that they are 1) much more effective than ours, and 2) much less expensive.

[ipaint]

118. All of them relegate private ins. to niche add ons or gov.

dictated policies with caps on price and very small to non-existent co-pays and deductibles which are picked up by the employer. In every single country that offers healthcare insurance companies are told what to do and how to do it, never the other way around. Also back room deals with drug companies are also non-existent.

We did the opposite, leaving the for profit health care industry in charge. Once again those who can afford ins, co-pays and deductibles will get healthcare everyone else suffers. Massive fail. But when it's the political scorecard you are worried about, effective policy that benefits all citizens will always fall way short of the mark.

Our government regulatory agencies are staffed top to bottom with industry lawyers and lobbyists. Health insurance agencies and regulators will be no different. Giving these for profit career lobbyists a mandate is suicide.

[eyepaddle]

513. Pretty much. I started out a fully committed advocate of single-payerm but

then just decided what I INSISTED on was a public option coupled with heavy regulation. At this point I'd be willing to roll with a deal like the Swiss have, which is basically heavily regulated non-profit private insurance. Here in MN all insurance is already legally required to be non-profit, but that doesn't really seem to have any meaningful impact on the picture.

Blue Cross tried pretty hard to shaft me with a $2400 bill for an endoscopy with the ol' "we don't have a referral on file" bullshit. Yes you do. The surgeon called me to tell me when my appointment was--how do you think he knew I needed the procedure--was it maybe that my primary doc "referred" my case to him? Because of that, I switched to HealthPartners at my next open enrollment. While they are one of the two succesful (and briefly lauded) co-ops I still don't have that much faith that they won't take a dump on me just see how I react

However to get back to the original point, the poster I responded to said single payer was "the only" system which could do better. Having looked around I have to think that only our current system can do worse--the one thing every other country has in common isn't gov't ownership of the whole health system, or even a part; it seems that effective regulation and universal coverage are what cuts cost (typically by about half) and improves outcomes.

While I have a personal vendetta against the insurance companies I won't let that set my position in stone.

And for the record--I am not necessarily advocating for the current HCR bill, although I am (very) cautiously optimistic that passage of it will in balance be somewhat positive. I merely wanted to clarify debate.

[ipaint]

514. Our for profit ins companies wouldn't exist in any other country with some form

of health care for everyone. They would die in their present form. There is a reason for that and it is they are not about providing health care. They are about profits and shareholders. The opposite of health care.

This current bill will be a disaster because it puts companies beholden by law to shareholders, companies who profit by denying care, companies that have let the bodies of americans pile up for 3 decades, in charge. It won't work because it can't work.

[eyepaddle]

516. Okay, I'll leave out the "personal background for context" and focus on my point.

I'm not really talking about this particular bill--I threw that in as an aside. I am merely stating that there are options aside from pure single payer that seem to work pretty well.

[eyepaddle]

517. Also, much of American Health Insurance is in fact private not-for-profit

and they are just as fucked up as the for profits. I am not entirely sure of the root cause of that, but there is more wrong with American Health Care than quest for profit.


The profit motive is clearly a contributor, but not the entire problem.

[OnlinePoker]

511. I wish people would stop holding Canada up as the be all and end all of medical service

Last night I found out my 80 year old aunt fell and broke her arm on Saturday. Her arm was snapped between the shoulder and elbow and her shoulder was broken in two places. Today, she is being discharged with her arm secured to her body and a lot of drugs. They don't have the parts to fix her and she has an appointment on the 26th to see the surgeon. This isn't a surgery date...this is just a follow up to see if they can schedule her for one. 80 years old and she has to live with a broken arm for 2 weeks because they don't have the parts. I'm sorry, but that is bullshit and nobody should have to go through it.

[emilyg]

164. Exactly.

[mzmolly]

190. This bill makes US more powerful

because insurance companies will be regulated in ways they've never been.

[martymar64]

377. No it won't

They will now have a 30 million strong captive customers that will have to buy their crap product or get risked sicced on by the IRS. Large group plans will begin to disappear because of the individual mandate. Large companies will no longer be forced to provide coverage, so to strengthen their own bottom lines, they will drop health coverage altogether. Hundreds of millions more will then be forced to buy on the "exchange" these useless individual plans that wouldn't cover squat.
Also as soon as this boondoggle passes, I predict every one of you DLCers will be clamoring to "move on" and not advocate any fixes to this abortion of a bill. You'll just want to forget about adding any improvements to it, you and Rahm got your dream sweetheart deals for Big Insurance and Big Pharma, so no more talk about health care for the next decade or two.
Also it you think these "regulations" are going to be enforced, then I'll have whatever it is you're smoking. The Obama Administration has already proven itself utterly unwilling to enforce anything that denies profit to Wall Street and Big Business.

These assholes will try to ram this shitty bill down America's collective throat, and it is likely that they will succeed. But when election time comes around and they ask for my vote to get re-elected, I'll just repeat what they told me when I asked for real health reform through a public option.

"Sorry, the votes just aren't there."

[mzmolly]

416. If it's only a crap product, how can you explain the 45,000 lives that are saved

annually as a result of having insurance coverage? Yes I do believe regulations will be enforced. Regulations are effective, which is why the industry is fighting reform with the 'death panel' meme, among other such nonsense.

[defendandprotect]

432. ....excuse me . . . NOT FOR THREE YEARS . . . that will be 105,000 more Americans DEAD...!!!

[mzmolly]

449. 90 days if you have a pre-existing condition. Or, NEVER if Kucinich

has his way.

[defendandprotect]

521. This health care doesn't begin for 3 or 4 years . . .

What you are saying is that people who can afford to pay exhorbitant rates to

insurance companies won't -- maybe, 90 days from now -- no longer be excluded!

These are the same "evil" companies who have found endless ways to limit benefits . . .

their businesses are built on limiting benefits.

Where we are going with Obama/Rahma is into increasing and securing corporate profit!!


Time to dump these DINO's . . .

[mzmolly]

528. Unless you have a pre-existing condition or are a child

with such a condition.

Dump these EGOS....

[defendandprotect]

433. MEDICARE FOR ALL -- up and running -- NOW!!!

[mzmolly]

447. SHOW ME THE VOTES FOR THIS .... NOW

Or, let us proceed with PROGRESS ... NOW.

[GinaMaria]

515. let's have a vote on it

straight up or down. Let's see which of our elected representatives stand against us. Let's just see it. Make the people who say, 'well yes, we want it but don't have the votes' put up their votes. No one knows if the votes are there for this or not. Put it to the test. If the votes are not there as you claim, then you will be able to make that claim for certain, and we will know who stands against us. Bernie can introduce it as amendment and they can vote straight up or down on it.

Now let's hear why you wouldn't support a move like this.

[mzmolly]

530. I'm fine having a vote on it, but let's pass what we know we can first.

Now let's hear why you or Dennis doesn't support a move like this.

[GinaMaria]

532. Let's vote on it first

it's the only way we'll see who is really with us and who is really against us. You do not know what will or will not pass or what can or cannot pass. Do you really think you do?

It's as I suspected.... you don't support this move. A simple amendment and a quick vote tells us everything we need to know. Now why would you not want that.... let's think about that.... The rats in congress need a light that shows exactly where they stand. We deserve to see this. We deserve to know. We have a bunch of cowards in office who straddle the fence and try to have it both ways. You want to claim there are not enough votes for this.... the only way to prove it is with a vote. I want to see who stands where. I want to know what's possible before compromising. Why don't you?

[mzmolly]

534. No. Let's not. Let's not put what we know will pass on the backburner.

Let's start saving lives, now.

[GinaMaria]

537. Again, you do not know what will pass

There's no back burner. Vote on the simple amendment then vote on the bill right after. It won't slow down the implementation date of the bill to vote on the amendment. You will not save more lives by not voting on this amendment. It would not impact the effective date at all.

[mzmolly]

542. Call Kucinich and ask him to stomp his feet on this absurd

notion for you. We will not stop everything to have a vote on a frikken bill that hasn't been written, no matter how much you wish it were so.

[GinaMaria]

548. It's an amendment and Bernie Sanders proposed it

who is 'we' Are you a voting member of congress or is this more delusional thinking?

[mzmolly]

555. The companion house bill was introduced a year ago and has SEVEN cosponsors

And the Senate bill has NONE. Now you tell me why it's a great move to hold up health care/progress by trying to pass bills with what amounts to ZERO support?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d111:1:./temp/~bdA67p:@@@P|/bss/111search.html

[GinaMaria]

557. Are you delusional or are you a voting member of congress?

You are all over the place as usual. Now you believe it is holding up health care/progress? How does an amendment hold anything up. The items in the over 2000 page bill would not go into effect the second it passed. So what is the hold up?

[mzmolly]

559. I'm delusional? You're the one suggesting that health care hasn't been delayed

and a bill with NO cosponsors will pass.

[GinaMaria]

562. I've said no such thing, but this is typical of discussions with you

I am not talking about a bill. I am talking about an amendment. I did not suggest anything about health care being delayed or not delayed. Now about health care reform being delayed, if that is what you are talking about... um, it's been over a year and you're focused on an amendment being a delay? Seriously? Something that would not impact the effective dates of any pieces of legislation in the bill should it pass, that's really what you are saying here? Let me just clarify your position. Are you saying that an amendment with a simple up or down vote, that would not impact the effective dates in the bill is a delay? :crazy: Are you sniffing glue?

[mzmolly]

563. You're too immature to continue

a conversation with. Cheers.

[GinaMaria]

565. Ah. got it. I can't follow your irrational, flight of ideas but

somehow that's a problem with me not with you. Whatever you need to post to save face, dear.

[defendandprotect]

581. You got it -- !!!

:)

[GinaMaria]

583. LOL

:hi: Always good to see you

[defendandprotect]

518. Show me the public doesn't want this . . .!!! Even Catholics want it , with contraception+abortion!

Everyone wants single payer --

Meanwhile, Obama can't even say the words because he knows there would be

run-away support for it --

And, why are you so gun-ho about corporate control of our health care?

These are filthy people -- "evil" according to Obama --

as for Pharma, each and every one of them have ripped off the government --

and been invited back to do it again -- see the latest on Pfizer???

Thanks to whistle blowers -- not government -- they were caught.

But, again -- no one goes to jail -- personhood ends at the prison doors, evidently!!

[mzmolly]

529. Then Dennis should have no problem passing single payer after he votes

yes on the current bill.

[GinaMaria]

533. In all seriousness, do you really expect DK

to vote yes on Mandates? Even worse Mandates without a PO to balance it out? If you are serious about DK voting for mandates you need medication.... lots of it. Hope you know where to get cheap prescriptions because the amount you will need will likely bankrupt you.

[mzmolly]

535. There are forms of a public option in the bill(s). Dennis has no problem

paying his monthly premium, without the "balancing" act of a wide spread public option. So, I do expect him to vote YES, to save the lives of his constituents and other Americans.

[GinaMaria]

538. This is really important....

it's really important that you read this.

You have to take the medicine everyday. You cannot stop taking it just because you feel better. You must take it everyday.

[mzmolly]

541. You keep repeating what your Dr. tells you until you remember it

ok? :eyes: C'mon enough with the cheap shots. You're an adult aren't you? Act like it.

[GinaMaria]

549. Delusional posts deserve this kind of response

You claim to know what will or will not pass, what can or cannot pass..... Sounds delusional to me, but then again you always have. Hope you get the help you need.

[defendandprotect]

585. Maybe you haven't noticed the little problem of corporations buying our government ...

and elected officials -- and President?

Or, are you in denial about that --

Or in DLC-Heaven about that?

[No Elephants]

569. No one ever tried to get those votes. That is heinous.

[HughMoran]

24. True.

[ChicagoSuz219]

31. What tridim said... n/t

[elias7]

94. Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. ~Emerson

Your sig line. Except in this case, right?

[ChicagoSuz219]

124. LOL... good catch! and, Yeah! n/t

[elias7]

138. OK. I don't get it.

Are you confused as to where Emerson might stand in this debate?

[ChicagoSuz219]

152. I didn't realize we were debating.

What's the topic?

[elias7]

206. I believe you seconded the sentiment, "Fuck you, DK"

I merely questioned how strongly you identified with your sig line, as I would imagine Emerson would be on DK's side for taking a principled (i.e. no path) stance rather than toeing the party line for political expediency (i.e. path).

[ChicagoSuz219]

299. Now, you're just making things up...

You can't say how or what Emerson would do.

I'll let Emerson speak for himself. I went & found some quotes:

"He who has health, has hope. And he who has hope, has everything."

"The first wealth is health."

"The first muse is health."

"An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory."


Hmmm... your guess might be wrong. He seems to place a lot of stock in health... and also in taking action.

[elias7]

484. He places a lot of stock in health because death was all around him

He lost his first wife to TB at age 20, lost his son to scarlet fever, lost I think around 5 siblings in either childhood or young adulthood to various ailments, lost his father at age 8 to stomach cancer, etc.

I don't quite get your point. Emerson's family would have been cut from insurance coverage without reform, would have had progressively rising rates with current reform, and would have benefitted from single payer and/or public option.

All I get is that kucinich has the guts to stand up for principle, speak out for single payer and for public option, be more involved in crafting health care legislation than 95% of congressmen out there, has the gumption to vote no when he sees that current state of reform is not able to be built upon as it is still privatized and insurance company based, and all I see is you saying,"Fuck you, Dennis"

[ChicagoSuz219]

492. His family would benefit from this Bill, as well.

That's besides the point. Dennis seems to be coming around. I hope so. I'm sick to death of all these grandstanders. It's. not. about. them.

[elias7]

525. Again with the name calling. Kucinich is not a Grandstander.

You need to read up a little on Kucinich's history (and Emerson's as well). This has been a silly conversation. Bye.

[ChicagoSuz219]

560. I didn't call him a 'Grandstander'...

...I said I didn't like grandstanders. If the shoe fits...

Anyone who holds this bill as hostage for their own agenda - no matter what their reason - is grandstanding & not acting for the greater good.

I don't need to read up on Kucinich & I've been around for his entire career. Sometimes I agree with him, sometimes not.

I believe he will come around. I can't imagine he wants to align himself with the Party of NOthing & the crazy-ass teabaggers on an issue this important... 'cause no matter how you try to spin it, the result would be the same. You've either got to be part of the solution or part of the problem.

[Mithreal]

134. +1

[Dappleganger]

41. My thoughts exactly. nt

[Mithreal]

60. Too bad we didn't have a larger majority than one lone representative.

[defendandprotect]

435. ...and he happens to be in agreement with UNIVERSAL health care world over!!

I love the way obama/Rahma are playing "deaf and dumb" on public option, single payer

and what every other nation has!!

They seem to think we believe they're reinventing the wheel!!

What garbage -- !!!

It's basically a crime within the DLC/Democratic Party to even mention UNIVERSAL HEALTH

CARE FOR EVERYONE . . . no let's start weighing levels of near poverty and poverty!!!

Let's have some good old fashioned CLASS conscious health care!!!

More garbage -- !!!

Obama should be thoroughly ashamed of himself --

[howmad1]

123. Funny, isn't that what Obama told all those who supported him?

It's those damn fucking retarded progressives causing all these problems.

[tridim]

160. No, that's not what Obama told his supporters. Not even close. nt

[Mithreal]

213. Rahm as CoS was just that message and "f#@*ing retards" was the cherry on top

[tridim]

244. Rahm didn't say "fucking retards" and you know it.

Try again. Eventually you'll get it right.

[Mithreal]

258. Outright lie, maybe you better explain yourself

http://www.disabilityscoop.com/2010/02/09/white-house-meeting-future/6950/

The half-hour meeting last Wednesday in Emanuel’s office marked what is believed to be the first time self-advocates were included in dialogue with a top White House official, while garnering the attention of national media and even Saturday Night Live.

Emanuel’s gathering with six advocates came more than a week after The Wall Street Journal quoted the White House chief of staff using the phrase “f—ing retarded.” The report prompted outrage among self-advocates and disability organizations who say use of the word “retarded” is offensive and should be discontinued.

Emanuel seemed genuinely surprised by the outrage he generated and told the advocates that he planned to discuss the situation with his three children so that they could learn from his mistakes, Peter Berns told Disability Scoop. Berns attended the meeting in his role as CEO of The Arc of the United States.

[flyarm]

385. Rahm also told liberals to kiss his ass. well he can kiss mine in Nov

and he still won't get me to the polls!


Rahm Emanuel Tells Liberals To Kiss His Arse

[FrenchieCat]

489. My understanding is that Rham stated that the PLAN that was being used was Fucking r*tarded....

he didn't call any group or person that.

so I would understand those who represent those with mental disabilities being
outraged by the statement, but you are not someone with mental disabilities,
so why would you so bent out of shape to where you would distort his words in order
to play victim?

In fact, the letter written to Rahm from the late Eunice Kennedy Shriver's son specifies exactly what Rahm did say:

"But what did trouble me was the quote attributed to you describing a plan to air certain ads as "f-----g retarded."
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2010/02/rahm_emanuel_on_defensive_over.html

So why are you twisting those words in order to be able to "claim" that Rahm called you or the rest of us anything out of our name,...and isn't that dishonest of you? and if so, why should I believe anything else you might say, since you are proving to be one who twists, exaggerates, and likes to inflame. Seems like you are no better than the one you denigrate via a simple "taking words out of context" game.

Why smear Rahm more than required?
What's your agenda?

[mvd]

490. He shouldn't have used the word at all, and..

it was very disrespectful to progressives, IMO.

[FrenchieCat]

498. I understand that.....but twisting his words further isn't the key to the truth......

and if one is that willing to stretch things in order to put someone
in an even worse light, what's is the next truth that we stretch in order to
get the desired effect?
I leave that type of shit up to Republicans,
as it is one of the reasons I don't trust them,
and I don't believe shit they have to say.

[mvd]

520. Understand what you mean

But when he says it in that way, I take it personally. Wish he would call out conservatives instead for blocking the public option.

[liberation]

135. LOL, and here comes the part where some pretend that crumbs are a 5 course meal

with a side order of black mail.

[mzmolly]

194. "Crumbs" are good enough for every member of congress, including Kucinich.

eom

[Skittles]

577. bullshit

they just want to be able to say victory with this piece of shit bill - victory for them, not for America

[mzmolly]

179. In the mean time, we're paying for his health insurance coverage.

Sickening. I'm so disappointed in him.

[Lorien]

327. Just get off it

The symbolic "win" for Obama isn't worth fucking over every American citizen; fleecing us to enrich the insurance companies while demanding nothing in return from them. This is no different than the bankster bailout; except that the advertising has worked on a few of you.

[mzmolly]

332. I will not be silenced by you

or others here. It's not about a win for Obama or a win for Kucinich and his coming Presidential campaign for ME. It's about dealing with the reality of the situation we're in, and knowing this bill will improve and even extend the lives of millions.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

418. We're paying for Obama's as well.

Does that sicken you? Should he have given up insurance coverage for he and his family until this shit bill is signed into law?

[mzmolly]

428. And Obama would like the rest of us to have access to the same

health insurance he has. So no, it doesn't sicken me at all.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

443. So would Kucinich.

One is pushing an insurance and pharma give-a-way that will do damage; the other is fighting it. Has this country learned NOTHING from the Wall Street bonanza?

[defendandprotect]

446. The DLC love corporations . . .

they love the campaign fund BRIBERY . . .

The other thing that smells to high heaven about this "insurance" plan is

that much of it is finance based -- setting up a class system -- near poverty

and closer to poverty and actually in poverty.

Everyone should be treated equality -- there should be NO weighting of wealth!!

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE FOR EVERYONE -- NO ONE OUT, EVERYONE IN!!

:)

[mzmolly]

452. Why does Kucinich buy into a system he claims doesn't help anyone?

Why is he paying his own premiums with the help of our tax dollars?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

483. Because H.R. 676 is not law?

Please provide a direct quote of Kucinich claiming the system "doesn't help anyone." He supports a government-run plan; plenty of tax dollars at work for everyone.

[mzmolly]

527. Kucinich refuses to spread help until he gets his way on every

angle. It's akin to a tantrum. People will die if this bill doesn't pass. Dennis isn't representing anyone but himself.

[pattmarty]

184. I can see you are really intelligent and WELL informed.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[sabrina 1]

280. Well, that was informative.

Mostly of a severe lack of logical thinking skills.

[Lorien]

324. DK to the greedy insurance pricks: fuck you

The wealth insurance bill does NOTHING to help the uninsured except EMPTY THEIR WALLETS!

I've spent over $78,000 on insurance premiums, they've only ever paid $200.00 in claims while I lost my life savings. THAT'S the exact kind of "service" these DLC whores are proposing. Kill the bill; it's an unconstitutional bailout for the uber rich which won't save a single life.

[mzmolly]

333. He's paying the "greedy pricks" every month for his

coverage and we're subsidizing it. You might not have lost your life savings if this bill had been in place in time for your health condition.

[defendandprotect]

438. This HC goes no where for THREE WHOLE YEARS . .. while we PAY$$$$$

[mzmolly]

453. 90 DAYS IF YOU HAVE A PRE-EXISTING CONDITION.

OR NEVER IF YOU AND "KOOCH" GET YOUR WAY.

[defendandprotect]

519. Pre-existing condition could be removed immediately . . .why not?

Everyone is in favor of that -- and there should have been separate and

immediate legislation on it --

Those who are "getting their way" are the corporates -- and sadly that includes

Obama/Rahma . . . who can't seem to do enough for corporations!!!

Strip mining, MIC -- Corporate control of health care -- "faith-based" organizations

we're pouring tax dollars into and which Obama is increasing.

This is overall betrayal of the public interest --

Let's do what every other nation has done -- UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE . . .

EVERYONE TREATED EQUALLY -- EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

No INCOME weighing -- no "risk pools" -- no insurance companies -- just health care --

Treat every American citizen equally --

[mzmolly]

526. A no vote from Kucinich and his pals means NEVER GETTING COVERAGE IF YOU HAVE A PRE-EXISTING

CONDITION. NO ONE IN, is the Kucinich plan.

[defendandprotect]

582. Knocking out this bill doesn't mean "never" . . .. in fact, it could mean help before 3 years...!!

[defendandprotect]

439. Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime -- and now we're getting more of it!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

367. The US government to me, an uninsurable pre existing condition...

FUCK YOU.

Me to the lot of "progressives" Fuck You.

[provis99]

400. guess what? after this rotten bill, you're still won't get insurance to pay your bills!

Congratulations! You will have an insurance policy three times as costly as it is now, and the companies will still not pay your bills!

[ScreamingMeemie]

402. Hello? I think you're yelling at the wrong person.

I agree the bill is rotten. Please reread my post. Thanks. The bill offers nothing for pre existing conditions.

[liquid diamond]

407. This.

I say the same to D ic K's supporters.

[shotten99]

10. Shame!

That's all I can say.

[johnnypneumatic]

17. He needs to stop letting the terrible be the enemy of the not very good

Come on Dennis, be reasonable. We only have a huge democratic majority in the house and senate and a democratic president. You can't expect to pass real health care reform, you have to settle for windfall profits for insurance corporations.

[RedstDem]

18. I Love This Man

Wish we could clone him..

Go Denny Go!!!

[Bumblebee]

20. so does GOP

[FBaggins]

50. So I take it that you love Ron Paul?

n/t

[liberation]

142. If only some of these so-called Dems fought as hard for Dem ideals, than they do to trash other Dems

who dare not follow their narrative. A much stronger and healthier Dem party we would have...

It is clear the DLC has decided that DK is their number one enemy for dare being an actual Democrat. I will cherish the day when the DLC stop being such chickenshits and register Republican already.

[defendandprotect]

440. As we can see, DLC hates Kucinich . . . meanwhile, we all hate corporatism . ..

Unfortunatly, Obama/Rahma/DLC love corporatism -- !!

Protectionism for corporations -- !!!

[suzie]

486. Wait, when I heard Dennis Kucinich speak in person, all he did was trash other Dems.

When he's on TV, he spends his time trashing other Dems.

And then votes with Republicans. How does that equate to being a Democrat?


It's Dennis Kucinich who should own up to his real self and make the switch to the GOP. He could go back to being anti-woman all the time and wouldn't have to hide behind other reasons for voting against health care.

[mvd]

487. I'll just say: we couldn't be further apart

Not even worth arguing all of that.

[Mithreal]

216. Those who equate Kucinich with the GOP, simpletons

[Ignis]

236. Paid quislings, more likely. (nt)

[liquid diamond]

410. Ouch. That'll leave a mark.

[inna]

33. Yeah, if we had a hundred Kuciniches in Congress...

We'd be in a much better place.

[RedstDem]

53. Exactly!

If we had two hundred, the country would be on track in no time...

[goclark]

75. But we don't because they couldn't get elected

[Mithreal]

165. Bull shit.

[Iowa]

183. +1

[FBaggins]

185. So which is it?

That there are no other DKs out there?

Or that they're not patriotic enough to run?

[Mithreal]

189. .

More of it is situational, you know, about money and who controls it.

Get involved with DFA or other real grassroots organizing, if you haven't already.

[FBaggins]

204. So now which is it?

They CAN get elected or they CAN'T (i.e., it's "situational")?

Sounds like you're saying that they can't get elected but the REASON that's the case is the money and who controls it.

Which makes me wonder why you gave "BS" to the earlier post.

[Mithreal]

207. Was referring to many ALREADY in office, I spoke poorly

[Mithreal]

221. And I can understand how what I said led to confusion but your either-ors

are weak. They are not indicative that you understand the complexity of the question you are asking, but honestly, thank you for calling me on my confusing comment. For that, tip of the hat.

[FBaggins]

231. Thanks... but "weak"???

I see three main possibilities.

Either "they" can't get elected in most parts of the country

Or they CAN get elected but are not running.

Or they CAN get elected and ARE getting elected.

I'm not a rabid DK fan, but I think that most would disagree that there are plenty like him in Congress... so that leaves option #1 or #2.

[Mithreal]

237. Your position keeps moving.

"That there are no other DKs out there?

Or that they're not patriotic enough to run?"

Please look at that either-or and tell me how that doesn't look weak? Please acknowledge that either-or I quoted is kinda weak and I'll move to your more recent post and comment. If you want to elaborate on what you meant by that quoted statement and what DKs actually means, that's all good too.

[FBaggins]

284. Not at all.

It's the same position.

The first question merely assumes that option #2 is the remaining option... that other candidates like DK CAN get elected. Since they are not I presume that you either believe that there are no such people out there (but that they could get elected if they existed) OR that they exist and simply refuse to run (note that if they won't run because of money etc, then you are agreeing with the earlier post).

[Mithreal]

359. Evidently you lack flexibility. If not your position then the expression.

I have some other things to do for a bit, may return to this later. You attempted to explain, fair enough, just had time for a peak at DU atm.

[Mithreal]

500. Ok, what is a DK? Let's start with that, to avoid wasted effort.

[ooglymoogly]

550. The simple mind requires black and white....What this goverment has

provided is something very black which they are trying to pass off as arguable shades of gray by adding a few obvious nuggets of vitality that should be a given and never been in question. Black or white ia not debatable; Not fungible; They are what they are. It is the fertile confusion of the infinite shades of gray we must carefully examine. Gray is the fertile soil of propaganda. Putting a few life sustaining nutriants in a mountain of shit does not make it palatable.

As far as dems not patriotic enough: The gauntlet for a new democrat is the wholly owned subsidiary of the pug party, the corporate "MSM". It has become a sisyphean task for a patriot to run this uphill gauntlet. There is only one way through that enigma and it is money; Money, tons of it, to pay the bribes parading as spots on the media to even be noticed enough to gain a vote. If the media ignores you, the voters will ignore you. THE GATEKEEPERS TO GOVERNMENT ARE FAR RIGHT WING REPUBLICANS AND THE GATE IS CORPORATE "MSM".

Dennis is a precious anomaly and we need to have his back at all times.

Do you think fire dept., highways, roads and bridges should be privatized. They are vital to the health and commerce and are the arteries for the life's blood of our nation. Health is the most vital aspect of all; It alone is truly the health and commerce and is the blood of our nation and without it we are doomed. It must be treated as such. Most civilized nations understand this and prosper for it; Thereby leaving us in the dust; Why can't we? Could it be our "liberal" corporate "MSM" owned by foreign and domestic interest; conglomerating fast into a fascist Corp-America, leading the way to a fascist corpworld? Corporations are by their very nature ruthless. Is that to be our future?

[NorthCarolina]

248. +1

[goclark]

322. Check out the Latest News and get back to me

[fascisthunter]

539. when the media treats all candidates the same

and all candidates have the same resources at their disposal, more Kucinich's will get elected. But corporate/private money is killing democracy, so now we are stuck with corporate whores who do NOT represent the people voting them in.

[defendandprotect]

473. They could if corporate BRIBERY wasn't involved . . . how long are we going

to NOT call it what it is?

[JBoy]

80. They'd all vote NO on each others' bills.

[Politicub]

242. But wouldn't get anything done

So if you think political stasis is a better place, then Kucinich could be the leader of the movement.

[suzie]

352. And then we'd have more so-called progressive Democrats who vote with Republicans?

And spend their time grandstanding against other Democrats whenever possible?

Is there a reason we'd like to have that?

[ProSense]

19. The health care bill is progressive enough for Bernie Sanders, but

Kucinich will take a so-called principled stance and vote with conservative Democrats and Republicans to kill the bill.

[Mithreal]

168. You know what we got from Bernie's support. Why not just post it.

Not like it's less than good stuff.

[defendandprotect]

474. Bernie Sanders supports MEDICARE FOR ALL. . . says we can do it for what we're paying now--!!

[mzmolly]

196. Well, he gets to keep his health insurance coverage.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

455. So do Obama/Rahma and Pelosi and Reid . . . and the Repugs . . .

but don't let that bother you . . . it's just Kucinich, of course!!

Obama/Rahma are so busy kissing the butts of corporations and pretending

that they're reinventing the wheel, that we need to remind folks that

every other nation has done what Obama/Raham just don't seem to be able to do . . .

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

No differnce between citizens -- everyone treated the same!!

And no privatization of health care --

Keep the "evil" insurance companies where they belong -- in jail!!

[fascisthunter]

29. I support his "no"

[harun]

46. I got to say I do too. There are many things that could be put in

to this bill to get him to vote yes. They aren't putting them in there though. I don't think they will be passing anything.

[Festivito]

110. I'll go with Dennis, he's seen the bill NOT RELEASED TO US.

This has been a 50+ year fight, we can keep fighting until we see the whites of their eyes.

Not released yet:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x222780

[NorthCarolina]

252. So do I. This whole process was a sham from the get go, and it's prime

purpose is to circumvent any possibility of single payer being advanced in the future in response to a much more liberal younger generation. Cement the role of private insurance now, while congress is still conservative enough to get it done.

[defendandprotect]

456. Of course it is . . . imagine pretending that we don't know how to do this . . .while

everyone other nation has managed to have health care for EVERY CITIZEN ...

This is a disgusting CLASS system, singling out near poor, close to poor and totally poor . . .

Treating everyone differently --

Rather, we need a health care system based on EQUALITY --

EVERYONE EQUAL ... no citizen different from any other citizen!!

Everyone in, no one out!!!

MEDICARE FOR ALL --

[bluestateguy]

32. "Thanks!"

Love,

Jim DeMint, John Boehner

[Chisox08]

39. Thanks!

Love,

Blue Crooks Blue Shield, United Healthscam

[SlingBlade]

34. Dennis Kucinich is a Patriot not a Political Hack

[MadBadger]

36. I think he's both.

[SlingBlade]

38. And I think your one of 'em, Guess which ?

Opinions are like assholes, Everyone has one, Some just think theirs doesn't stink !

[MadBadger]

52. I have an opinion you dont like, therefore I dont like my country

How Rovian of you.

[Mithreal]

172. There were two choices, no. Why pick that one, hmm.

Oh, because you have no response to the other. Now straighten that lapel pin, jk.

[SlingBlade]

214. Yes. Suck's doesn't it Rahm

[FDR_Democrat]

Thanks for being the only voice in Congress

that represents my opinion.

I refuse to be blackmailed into supporting this bill because of the uninsured supposedly "being helped". This bill looks like it helps them on paper, but it's nothing but a big empty promise. The only people that are going to be helped are the health insurance corporations, the federal government is going to help them help themselves to your wallet!!!

The New Democratic Party - Representing the Ruling Class 24/7!!!

[RedstDem]

56. Boils down to more corporate welfare for the insurance companies

I'm tired of the fascism with a smile, and so is Mr. K

[defendandprotect]

457. Hundreds of billions of dollars for insurance and Big Pharma...and private deals!!!

Very difficult to find anything these days but disdain for this Obama/Rahma pro-corporate

private deal making!!!

Disgusting!!

We need a health care system that will treat everyone the same -- everyone EQUALLY ...

all citizens EQUAL --

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE . . . EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

And we need to kick these vile insurance companies in the butt and get them out of government!

[Skittles]

481. CORRECT

[Flaneur]

37. Why all the vitriol toward Kucinich? He's not the only Dem voting "no."

Like my rep, Stephanie Herseth Sandlin (D-Citibank).

At least Kuciinich is voting against it for principled reasons. I can respect that.

[mvd]

495. Exactly

:hi:

[Change Happens]

42. What an asshole...nt

[Taverner]

43. Kucinich to US: DROP DEAD

[Mithreal]

64. Yes, that is the message.

[closeupready]

44. Go, Dennis!

:hi:

[neuvocat]

45. But his own health insurance is progressive.

Otherwise he would drop it.

[goclark]

48. He has insurance for his Family

many of us don't have that luxury -- Prime Insurance, not the small stuff.

Give up your Prime Time Health Insurance Dennis and then talk to us DEMOCRATS about your " NO."

[Taverner]

51. Exactly - but he'd rather be the martyr

God I'm sick and fucking tired of martyrs

[Mithreal]

66. Never get tired of spinning, you folks.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

328. So does Obama but he doesn't want it for the rest of us, although

he used to, maybe before he took all that money from the Insurance Industry.

Kucinich is one of the least wealthy members of Congress. Why doesn't Obama give up all of his millions until he can provide jobs for Americans? And then let him talk to Democrats about why he is helping Wall St. out while doing nothing for Main St! :eyes:

I love these stupid talking points which refuse to address the actual issues.

So, what is it that Kucinich has said about the compromise (you do remember that he has already compromised don't you) that YOU disagree with? Are you with the Republicans on opposing a Public Option?

[florida08]

47. I like congressman Kucinich

and I agree with him. Obama promised:
1. No Individual Mandate
2. Complete transparency
3. Enable the Government to Directly Negotiate Drug Prices
4. Allow Drug Importation
5. Lower Premiums by $2,500 for a Family of Four

Are any of these in this bill? Funny thing is I can order furninture from Canada but not meds. But on the other side of the coin..if this bill fails any chance of real insurance reform probably goes with it. It will be the POTUS's waterloo and ours. Does anyone really see a miniscule's chance of getting anything better? The country is growing tired of the battle. Remember republicans hate government. That means they hate democracy. They want to keep the power out of our hands and in theirs. Democrats may have their scandals but it was two democrat presidents that signed medicare and social security into law. What have we gotten from the GOP?
I'd like to hear what the alternative is if this bill fails for us.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mithreal]

79. I don't entirely agree with your reasoning but this is a better approach

than demonizing Kucinich.

We should be going after the conservatives in our party and sending a message to those who promised to demand a comprehensive public option available to everyone and lost their nerve too.

At least we exposed President Obama. Yeah, I get it, what he did is legal but it shouldn't be. We sent the President to DC to ask the fabulously wealthy and corporations how to govern and regulate.

[florida08]

122. umm..where did I demonize Kucinich?

I like him..I agree with him I think is what I said. Just asking what happens after the bill is killed which by the way I think it should be, but we will have to live with the consequences. Obama has not fought for what he said he would. We know it, but I'm concerned that the proverbial baby will be thrown out with the bath water. Let's say this crummy bill passes and a miracle happens and we get someone like Kucinich, Grayson, Sanders or Weiner for president..could it not be improve on? Wouldn't that be easier than starting the whole thing up again? Don't know..just askin'.

[Mithreal]

145. Was actually praising what you said.

Sometimes I poorly phrase my position.

Was comparing your take to those blaming Kucinich.

Unless all the good stuff in the bill begins next to immediately, we are going to suffer consequences from the erosive debate. If the final bill fails and I don't think it will, pass all the positive regulations on the insurance industry, like end to rescission, discrimination, etc. Plenty of others have addressed this question.

Anyway, I was giving you a thumbsup for the way you framed the disagreement.

[florida08]

166. oh gosh ..I'm sorry

I see it now. Just like us to have more of a give and take instead of me vs you style. More can be accomplished with open minds like you have. I know we are all frustrated so thanks and sorry I jumped to the wrong conclusion :crazy:

[Mithreal]

174. .

No need to apologize. I misread and mispeak often enough.

[laconicsax]

318. You must not have read your marching orders.

We're all supposed to love this crap bill because Obama likes it. Don't worry about the broken promises, the fact that this bill was widely regarded as shit just a few months ago, and all the problems with it. Just blindly march in lockstep and keep repeating "pass it now, fix it later." Studies have shown that if you keep chanting something simple, you'll start to believe it.

[Enthusiast]

336. Yeah!

The American worker has endured the de-industrialization of the U.S. in the name of free trade yet we can't allow the re-importation of drugs. Free trade for every product but pharmaceuticals-unbelievable. We even import the raw ingredients for drugs from China. This is hypocrisy of the highest order.

No one should be OKAY with this. At the very least re-importation should have been a provision in both bills.

[seabeckind]

65. When others tried to put in anti-people stuff,

like Lieberman with his non-medicare buyin,

Stupidak with his abortion,

Baucus with his no public option,

You were ALL up in arms and not defending their position. Dennis, along with some other courageous democrats, is fighting against this bill that blows chunks, goes against all our principles,

And YOU help to attack him?

The corporations hate Dennis and would love to get rid of him -- just like they do any other truly populist.

Dennis is fighting for US.

I was surfing the teevee a bit ago and saw a crawler under Obama's rhetoric -- I keep the sound muted these days -- that shows he said "premiums will double in". So I would ask: then WHY are they still in the temple????

[tomhayes]

87. "Goes against all our principles"???

Really? Getting rid of pre-existing conditions "Goes against all our principles"??

Getting rid of the donut hole? ban Lifetime coverage limits? rate increase reviews? Those "Goes against all our principles"??

Really???

Would I like to see other provision added, like Medi-care buy in for people over 18? Yes - but that doesn't mean THIS BILL "Goes against all our principles".

Some people here sound like REPUBLICANS with their "IF it doesn't make an imperfect system PERFECT than it's just government waste."

We need to make SOME changes RIGHT NOW to the health care system. With the corporate controlled system we have (Thanks to anti-gay marriage sentiment r-relecting Bush - then Bush appoint Alito and Roberts) we'll probably never get the health care system we actually need. Accept it and let's get a system CLOSER to the ideal one.

We are not going to get a better bill than what has been currently passed by The Senate - it just will not happen. You sound like a tea-partier of you think we can "throw the bums out." honestly - show a *way* to the goal? SHOW YOUR WORK.

Mine is this : Pass senate bill. Pass reconciliation. Gradually try to implement better policies.

DU hates incrementalism - but face it - the only changes *not made* by incrementalism have been for the worse in the last 40 years. Wars. tax Cuts. Education policy. Those went from bad to worse overnight.

This has to do with Campaign Finance laws - and those are GONE for the most part thanks to a Superme Court that can't tell the difference between a PERSON and a corporation.

In California Meg Whitman is running her gubernatorial campaign by attacking "too generous welfare" and illegal immigration - and promising to fix things "by common sense" using her "business know-how."

[seabeckind]

128. Some realize you can't cross a chasm incrementally

When the 19th amendment passed, it granted the vote to ALL, not just those women over 5' and we'll fix it later.

Many say, we're getting health insurance for 30 million...ok, but we're NOT getting it for 15 million.

That's ok, we'll fix it later...bullshit.

When the democrats took congress in 2006, why wasn't one of the first things they did the reversal of Gramm? Why didn't they modify Medicare Part D?

When this bill passes, this giveaway to the insurance companies, that's the LAST increment you will see.

[Mithreal]

192. +1

Please post more often.

[tomhayes]

222. And some people realize some issues aren't ON/OFF

Healthcare is VASTLY more difficult than a yes/no question.

I guess some people think of everything as black or white - and that's not how these complex issues *ACTUALLY* work.

If you disagree then SHOW YOUR WORK.

And stop trying to compare something that needs a very complex solution (healthcare) to something that had an easy solution (women to vote/slavery/gays in the military.)

Or show YOUR GODDAMN WORK!!!!

Jesus, don't you think that MEDI-CARE is complex? Or the VA?

[seabeckind]

259. Ok, I understand...it's just too difficult for me to understand

Then again, perhaps something that somebody told you was very complex, really isn't and they were just saying it to make you think it was...I think the word is temporizing. It's the one we used on our kids when we didn't want to get into something -- sometimes our motives were honorable, sometimes not.

To me it seems fairly simple -- it just takes courage on the part of our elected representatives.

Single-payer would require the expansion of medicare, more clients. Hire some more people, get some more 'puters. Not a big thing, maybe not overnight but by fall. Increase the medicare tax a bit maybe.

Public option would require expanding the FEHB to handle a bigger pool. Works for me, maybe my rates might drop a bit. Allow business to jump in, maybe even the BIG business. Again, more people, more 'puters...no big thing, again, by fall. This would keep the insurance companies around but believe me, FEHB keeps a pretty tight hold on them or they lose their base.

Some things should never be compromised. HealthCARE for all, insurance if we must. And perhaps we shouldn't budget strictly on gov't cost, but societal cost.

It's a matter of priorities. Maybe we might hold off on those AF tankers or the f'in F35 for a while.

And what the f' work are you talking about???

[tomhayes]

268. Oh, it's just COURAGE??

Can I take that platitude to the hospital and get healthcare??

I don't know what world your living in, but in 2010 in America this bill is the most progressive that can be passed.

Buit yeah, COURAGE. Why not FREEDOM and LIBERTY while we are at it??


(And for the record the VA system of socialized medicine would be the ideal for this country. Bt the only people that Americans feel deserve it are the military. That's AMERICA in 2010, deal with it.)

[seabeckind]

316. The VA would be the ideal?

You're kidding, right? You basically are in favor of the british system for us? And you think doing medicare for all would be complicated? And how would you think we might suddenly bring the entire medical community under the gov't blanket?

As far as courage? Yep, you better believe it. Takes a lot to stand up to the corporations in this country, this Reagan utopia. Far as I can see there're only a few in congress and Dennis is one of them. I haven't seen any in the White House in a long time -- not since Carter and Johnson before him.

Anyone who stands up to the corporations is demonized and belittled, Dennis, Dean, Moore, Carter, and any unionist. There isn't a vast right wing conspiracy...there is a VERY vast corporate conspiracy. They manipulate the message and anyone who doesn't realize that most of what they hear from any source is manipulated hasn't been paying attention. And that includes you.

And don't bring up that freedom and liberty dog whistle bullshit...it just confuses the issue. This is about what the people deserve out of their society. As far as taking that "platitude" to the hospital? If our congresscritters had the courage to do what we pay them to do -- no wait, their sponsors actually pay them, we just give them walking around money -- anyone could be able to go anywhere in the US and get health CARE.

[tomhayes]

337. Do you have the COURAGE to show how you'd GET IT DONE

How?? Show *HOW*!!!!!!!

SHOW HOW!!

Or is this a McCain "I know HOW to get Bin Laden" type of "HOW?""

[Missy Vixen]

361. Oh, you're talking about platitudes?

>Can I take that platitude to the hospital and get healthcare??<

You all forced the rest of us to swallow "hope" and "change", did you not? Or, are they not "platitudes" on your planet?

Obviously, you're not over 40 with pre-existing conditions. Your precious bill might strip out the ability to turn someone down for pre-existing conditions, but it sure as hell doesn't restrict the ability of health insurers to charge more on the basis of age, does it? How about three times more? Yup.

When the only solution I see is to look into emigrating to Canada because we won't be able to afford to carry health insurance in the USA, something is wrong.

>2010 in America this bill is the most progressive that can be passed<

And I call "bullshit". It's all about courage. President Obama has none. Neither do the members of Congress who let this happen to the American people. We gave President Obama EVERY TOOL HE NEEDED to get this done. He chose to squander them all. After all, campaign contributors must be rewarded.

[inna]

376. Passing strong Public Option would be absolutely certain, if Obama wanted it.

Unfortunately, it is becoming more and more clear that he is not on the side of the working people in this unilateral class warfare.

[tomhayes]

480. I voted for him on POLICY issues

His were much, much better than McCain's. Not my *ideal*, but much closer to the way I want the country to be headed.

I'd have voted for Hillary too.

If Obama and the system broke your heart, well it's not *my* fault.

Even his incremental changes are being fought agiainst the right in the most *VILE* ways possible. And you want to bellyache about courage.

[Missy Vixen]

497. Well, you told me, didn't you?

What "policy issues" were those? The ones he lied through his teeth on, the ones he continues to lie about? I guess it's okay if you break your promises to the entire electorate if you have a "D" after your name, isn't it?

>If Obama and the system broke your heart, well it's not *my* fault.<

Gosh. Your compassion knows no bounds.

EVERYONE between 40 and 65 is taking it up the ass with this legislation. Of course, it's "not your fault", is it? It doesn't matter to you; I'll bet you have a nice employer-paid medical plan, and therefore, don't give a shit. There are fifty million uninsured right now in the United States, as well as another fifty million who can't afford to take advantage of the insurance they have NOW due to spiraling drug prices, co-pays, and the fact health insurance companies make sure they pay as little as possible. Those of us who can't absorb monthly health insurance payments the same price as our mortgage are sick and tired of the smug Obama apologists who claim "some's better than none".

I'll tell you what, Sparky. You go without your insurance, or you pay the equivalent of an additional mortgage payment monthly for coverage, and then you can talk about your "incremental changes".

This is NOTHING more than a bailout of the health insurance industry, backed up with financial negative reinforcement for those who are struggling NOW and can't afford an unfunded mandate by any stretch of the imagination.

I'll tell you what breaks my heart. There are people who line up all night to be seen at a free clinic in the United States of America, the richest nation on earth, because Barack Obama does not have the courage to keep his campaign promises to them. If you believe that "incremental" "hope and change" is good enough, then own it, buddy.

I sure as hell don't.

[tomhayes]

501. WELL, HOW'S ABOUT THIS

1)We get this bill passed now.
2)You MAGIC UP some "courageous" politicians and completely overhaul campaign finance reform, for profit insurance, and for profit healthcare - and that bill passedg
3)Your magic bill knocks everything that is being put up 40 and 65 year old's asses out of said asses


Step number one in no way precludes you from the magical legislation you are advocating (with no way to get actually passed in this America, with this legislature and this Supreme Court.)

(OR do you want to get into a time machine, fix the election for mcCain and see how much better we'd all be right now??)

You are talking *a lot* of shit with no plan on getting it turned into reality.

DID YOU THINK SOMEHOW THAT ELECTING OBAMA WOULD DRASTICALLY CHANGE AND FIX ANLL THAT WAS WRONG IN THE ENITRE POLITICAL SYSTEM?????

REALLY?????

Incrementally better is better than status quo or worse.

[Missy Vixen]

561. Gosh, Cupcake

If the legislation is already going through the reconciliation process, Obama can demand the public option be part of that legislation.

He's not.

Do you wonder why?

At this point, it has NOTHING to do with "votes", and everything to do with the fact he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him. Of course, you think it's fine that the entire country is beholden to campaign contributors, so you probably think that's smart.

>You are talking *a lot* of shit with no plan on getting it turned into reality.<

I think I know more about "reality" than you ever will. For instance, I know that the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is pulling the same BS maneuvers we were outraged over re: the previous administration, and people like you are giving him a pass.

>DID YOU THINK SOMEHOW THAT ELECTING OBAMA WOULD DRASTICALLY CHANGE AND FIX ANLL THAT WAS WRONG IN THE ENITRE POLITICAL SYSTEM?????<

I expected him to keep the promises he made to the entire electorate during his campaign cycle regarding health care reform and a host of other issues. He has kept NONE of them. (Oh, yeah: He got his daughters a dog.)

If you expect less, that's your problem. The rest of us would appreciate some transparency and truthfulness. Unfortunately, we're not going to get it from President Obama.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

442. Ask Barack "We Need Courage" Obama.

Obama calls for action on healthcare: 'We need courage'
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-healthcare-obama16-2010mar16,0,4385273.story

[defendandprotect]

444. Pre-BRIBED and Pre-OWNED . . . and we have to begin calling it what it is...!!!

Let's take a hint from the Repugs and at least demonize campaign funds as

BRIBERY!!!

[Hekate]

67. That little withered SOB

[hayu_lol]

74. Dennis Do-Nothing used to climb up on his chair about once a ...

month with his latest 'news' item. Then later, he started doing this once a week or so...still didn't get the photo ops he wanted. Someone must have bought him a POGO STICK because now he is up and down all the time.

He still does nothing however...were he a patriot like this during the Revolutionary War, we would stll be wards of the King.

How can anyone with any mind left at all stand up for this wanna-be somebody.

[seabeckind]

77. Cause then you're standing with the other guy. n/t

[Mithreal]

81. Obama, that is a lil harsh. He sold us out, but doesn't deserve that kind

of name calling.

Corporations got theirs, they're people after all too.

[mzmolly]

335. LOL

:rofl: I've never heard it put quite that way. ;)

[Hekate]

340. Kooch is a garden gnome. I've given up on him.

and yeah... :rofl: because I'm not going to :cry: yet.

Hekate

[ooglymoogly]

69. Yeah, what Ohio needs is a real Dino like Rahm. nt

[Taverner]

71. No, Ohio needs a congressman who gives a shit

Which Dennis, unfortunately, does not

[Mithreal]

97. Yes, that is it. May I use your word, "dude?" Dude, when you make a weak argument

it's probably better that it was never made at all unless you really are seeing things from my perspective and trying to make the silliness of those who despise Kucinich all the weaker.

[Taverner]

98. Look I don't despise Dennis. But tell me exactly, what has he "done"

Not "said"

People say lots of things

But what has he "done"?

And don't turn this around and say "oh yeah, well what did xxxx do?"

We're not talking about xxxx, were talking about Dennis

[Mithreal]

103. You can blow air all you want. You need to do your own homework.

And the DLC New Dem's have done a pretty good job marginalizing him. If you don't despise him, then don't jump on their wagon.

The party has exposed itself, Kucinich has been pretty consistent.

[Taverner]

105. Boogaboogabooga! DLC!!! EVIL!!!!

You know, for as much as people fear the DLC, they aren't half as powerful as you guys make them out to be

[Mithreal]

112. Keep telling yourself that. And yes, they have had to do some rebranding.

Not evil so much, but corruption and away from traditional Dem principles.

[Taverner]

298. Come the fuck on, don't you know that DLC is nothing but a canard

Howard Dean was DLC when he was Governor of VT for fucks sake!

Stop pulling out the DLC boogeyman every time you need a whipping horse.

[ooglymoogly]

115. Hahahahahahahahah, you jest right?

[ooglymoogly]

113. Dennis acts and uses his soap box, which in reality, is all

he has; A vote and a soapbox and occasionally a megaphone, and if you do not hear him or understand his voting record then you are not listening or seeing. He is one of the very few progressives with true democratic values.

[ooglymoogly]

566. The Marquis of Queensbury says: The proper word is

"Dudess, or "Doooodess"

[Mithreal]

82. +1

[craigmatic]

72. I just don't understand him. He talks liberal backs all the right things yet

when it is time to put belief into action he says no. I wish he'd reconsider.

[Taverner]

73. Hint: He's not really a liberal

Just look at his vote on the flag burning ammendment

[Mithreal]

85. Obama, telecom immunity, war crimes off the table, etc.

Obama is a conservative, get used to it.

[Taverner]

88. Dennis is a conservative. get used to it

[Mithreal]

90. People know where Kucinich stands despite your vilifying.

Obama, not so much. The marketing provided a lot of cover.

[Taverner]

92. Whatever dude. Go back to fantasyland. There's a pink pony waiting for you there.

[Mithreal]

93. Ah, the pony, again expose the impotence.

[Taverner]

96. Hey its not my fault you and many others are being completely unrealistic

I mean, shit, I'm a fucking socialist. But I know nothing even close to that will ever come about in my, or anyone walking around today's lifetime.

[Mithreal]

99. I'm a unicorn. I see your position for what it is, weakness, vilifying and excuses.

Why not, because you aren't willing to work for it?

www.whipcongress.com

The assholes said there weren't enough votes. We had 59 until Obama told Reid to cave to Lieberman. Now we have more than enough senators who will vote for a comprehensive public option for all. We never had a champion in Obama though.

[Taverner]

101. Two words: Insurance Reform

Yes, not enough, not soon enough

But like I said, we aren't talking about Obama

were talking about dennis

[Mithreal]

108. You aren't talking about Obama. I am.

[Taverner]

102. Y know, its funny. All you can do is insult, and vilify

Yet you accuse me of that...

Pot, kettle, the color black...

[Mithreal]

106. I will take that. I am one of those folks who gives as good as he gets.

Knock yourself out with that.

[Taverner]

107. Well I haven't called you anythying other than unrealistic

Yet I am a corporate whore who hangs out with ilk

[Mithreal]

116. Well that is a lil over-the-top. If arguments are just going to get

all ridiculous, expect a lil of your own medicine. I generally think that people appreciate the connection. If you use certain tactics, you will appreciate a response that engages in the same tactics.

[Enthusiast]

339. Taverner is one of those pony

talkin' guys.

[defendandprotect]

463. Ah, well a PINK Pony is so much more woth waiting for . . . !!!

[liberation]

144. I think some of you are having trouble with the difference between "liberals" and "neo-liberals"

I am sure a lot of you are some of those "liberals" who when told what left-leaning policies and ethos look like, you act all perplexed and disgusted.

LOL.

[YOY]

283. Sorry Taverner...gotta disagree. He is the textbook definition in many cases.

n.t.

[defendandprotect]

466. Right . . . Obama/Rahma and Pelosi/Reid are the "liberals" ...!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ooglymoogly]

84. A very Merry unrec to you, yes who? yes you sabra, you should know better.

Better than nothing is not good enough. Here is 10 cents for you and you and you and here are billions for HC industry thugs. Yes I know the poor are starving and have no healthcare but 10 cents will just have to do.

Sure there are a few good things in the bill but the cost for them is billions more than they are worth. This is not a hard thing, a good bill; It is just pretend hard so devastating giveaways to the HC industry thugs, are made palatable by nothing but smoke and mirrors and a scant few of the many obvious and vital things needed to fix healthcare. This bill does not even come close to fixing the problem, as the folks pretending to fix the problem are part of the problem and that problem is greed; And good on Dennis for getting it.

[tomhayes]

95. As someone who will lose COBRA this June , and has a pre-existing condition I disagree

Your position might (*might*) make sense in a political theory class - but some of us need a change RIGHT NOW. And this bill provides a lot of good.

You don't want a mandate??Just take your subsidy and pay for fines.
You want COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY? Do we have that anywhere in our government??


Face it - if we don't make a change NOW they're will never be a change made, EVER.

But if this doesn't get passed RIGHT NOW it, and any other "good" reform will NEVER pass. NEVER.

And this bill does not exclude the changes you want - those can be added through other bills.

What's wrong with making more changes later? (Like later this year.)??

[Taverner]

100. This is reality. Some people need this fix now.

Not this pie-in-the-sky, "when I gets me a million dollars" fix...

[WriteDown]

121. And so what if that sentences to the rest of the population to mandated insurance...

Afterall, you got yours.

[tomhayes]

133. SENTENCE

Health Care is now something you are SENTENCED too?

Shit, I pay money for a lot of stuff I disagree with. Wars. Cattle Farming. Rural electrification.

But it's not a SENTENCE. It's only a punishment if you think paying taxes is also a SENTENCE.

The people on these boards seem to be creeping into the republican "No money for social welfare" territory.

And how am I doing the "I gots mine" with this? I'll have to *pay* for it. And there are MILLIONS of other people who need healthcare RIGHT NOW and can't get it.

Push for *MORE* regulation on the industry, and do it right after this bill with some VEYR NECESSARY changes passes. Or if you don't want any healthcare don't pay for it - you'll get a small fine.

And then stay out of the hospitals. If you get in a car crash take a PRINCIPLED STAND and refuse life saving treatment, unless you can pay for it out of pocket.

[Mithreal]

136. misrepresentative

[WriteDown]

141. Being forced to pay for PRIVATE insurance is corporatism.

I'm sorry that you seem to be open to the concept.

[tomhayes]

146. So being SENTENCED to pay for it from The GOVERNMENT is okay?

So it's just a philosophical point for you - you don't actually NEED HEALTHCARE LIKE I DO??????!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Then we can get rid of the gubbernment stuff because some people don't like paying taxes either.

Or do you not earn any money/pay any taxes so it's *all* moot to you??

Here's what I need - HEALTHCARE. And we're not going to be able to get it for free anytime soon.

[Mithreal]

151. misrepresentative

not just ok, but even constitutional, you know, like social security

"free" talking nonsense too

[WriteDown]

156. Apparently, you don't understand the difference between corporate profit and a govt program....

Once again, sound like all you want is "yours" and let everyone else be damned. I wonder what the reaction would be if this bill banned all abortion or maybe reinstituted segregation. I guess the other things in the bill would outweigh those things though. How exactly does that scale work again?

[tomhayes]

230. This bill doesn't reinstitute segregation

Hyperbole much??

This bill does require people to get healthcare insurance. And in the bill the insurance is all PRIVATELY run.

But guess what - that's STATUS QUO. Unless you are covered under a CHIP program, or the VA, or Social Security, or Medicare that's the only way to get healthcare insurance.

if you feel it's SLAVERY to pay a private insurer for healthcare than I see why it's against your philosophy.

And how many votes do we have in the House and Senate to really socialize our healthcare system like a Britain? 10 votes? 20?? (I'd be *ALL FOR IT* by the way.)

And this "You got your you don't care" line of reasoning against me is BULLSHIT. I'll have to PAY for healthcare. And the MILLIONS of people who need healthcare and aren't allowed to PAY for it need this bill.

You've got philosophy and hyperbole on your side - what you don't have is a better public health policy than we currently have in there.

[WriteDown]

234. Just trying to figure out where the limit is....

What exactly would you be willing to saddle your fellow citizens with to get "yours?"

Actually, its not slavery to be REQUIRED to pay a private corporation. It's flat out unconstitutional.

And do you like Romney-care? Why or why not?

[nodehopper]

200. why do you disagree with rural electrification?

[tomhayes]

271. In comedy the third thing is always funny

.

[nodehopper]

509. aha so it's like the old Russian joke about how anti-semitic Russians are

"kill all Jews and bicyclists." "Why the bicyclists?"

[Taverner]

260. Did you not hear Obama's speech today?

Or were you busy painting pictures of Obama as the Joker???

Tax Cut to make up for the cost of the insurance.

What part of - oh wait, you're part of the Ponies and Unicorns brigade. Sorry, thought I was talking to someone logical

[WriteDown]

276. Word salad?

Almost like you had a conversation with yourself. Go Romney-care 2.0. Obama-Romney in 2012.

[Taverner]

285. Um...ok

I guess just because its in the bill, written down, and Obama mentioned it, then it must be false, right?

[WriteDown]

287. Mentioned what?

Mandated insurance? Sure it's in there.

[Taverner]

289. No - tax break equalling the cost of insurance

[WriteDown]

291. So pay for your insurance like a good little customer and we'll make sure to get your money...

back to you by the end of the year? :rofl:

Can't wait to read the final bill.

[Taverner]

293. It is as good as we are going to get

I mean, shit, have you looked around lately?

The GOP is running on "crazy" and its fucking working

There will not be another Democratic administration for another 8-12 years - trust me on that one.

And do you think the GOP is going to try to solve the HC problem? OF COURSE NOT

And this bill is better than nothing.

SO FUCK YOUR PESSIMISM

You're the folks that form the circular firing squads - and I'd rather you just go off and be a Fundamentalist Christian and vote GOP because they have the intolerance you love

[WriteDown]

294. This is worse than nothing. Did you try to move to Massachusetts

when this first came out?.....

[Taverner]

295. Whatever dude...throw out the nonsenical statements

This is not better than nothing - the insurance reform (yes, there is a bunch. pre-existing conditions for one) is worth the cost of the mandate.

And we have to fight for the public option in reconcilliation, because that will never get past a fillibuster.

But hey, you want perfect to be the enemy of good and necesarry, so sorry logic has departed your brain.

I'm stoned and I'M the more realistic one - amazing!

[WriteDown]

296. I didn't think so.

It's amazing that Massachusetts didn't see a huge population increase when Romney-care went into effect. Seems to be enormously popular. Maybe it just needed new marketing.

You may want to check up on other "promises." Like remember when no-bid contracts would be banned on anything above $25,000?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-broken/

[Taverner]

297. Dude, check snopes for most of those

Obamammeter has some stuff right, and some stuf way off wrong. Like Sarah Palin wrong. But you wouldn't care - only Saint Dennis will do. Everyone else is TAINTED! TAINTED I said!!!!! BOOGA BOOGA!!!!

When you touch ground in reality give me a call...

[WriteDown]

301. You offered a lot of facts there.

:eyes:

[No Elephants]

567. I don't think you've read many of WriteDown's posts. D.K. is not his favorite pol.

To find WriteDown's favorite pol, I'd start looking to Obama's right, not to Obama's left. Maybe even to the right of Ron Paul.

[martymar64]

387. So he made another speech. BFD

He is good at making speeches.

However, I now suspect that he doesn't really believe what he's saying. He just wants us to believe it.

Sorry but we've been down this road before. Talk is cheap.

Without any real reform, come 2012, he's going to be hearing from many of us

"Sorry the votes just aren't there to re-elect you."

[WriteDown]

120. And so what if that sentences to the rest of the population to mandated insurance...

Afterall, you got yours.

[Mithreal]

126. +1 They just think they got theirs, otherwise agree.

[pundaint]

147. This bill will let you continue your coverage for three times your present premium. Does that work

for you? Is that all it will take for you to see this as a win?

[liberation]

I think they figured out they don't need to play since they can move the goal posts...

... when you get to redefine what "win" is, you don't really need to play hard (or play at all).

[Mithreal]

155. Happy days are here again. President Obama just wants a win.

[ooglymoogly]

167. Yes that is a good thing as are a few others I can count on one hand

and should be passed through reconciliation on its own merits. It is such an obvious and necessary fix. But think of the billions we are paying in forced insurance to placate the insurance thugs to pay for that obvious and necessary fix that should have never existed in the first place. We are robbing from those in need to help those in need, while the robber barons continue to haul in the blood and sweat from all of us, handing over billions to the thugs of the HC industry. The HC bill; I believe, will pass and good on you for that and I sincerely hope it helps you and those in your situation, but we will pay for it in so many ways we cannot even begin to understand. There are better ways to fix what is criminal and should never have been allowed to exist in the first place. We are being hoodwinked.

[SocialistLez]

366. pre-existing conditions

If you truly think an insurance company won't reject you for a pre-existing condition, think again.
None of the bills have any true consumer protections.
They can say your medical condition is the result of a "lifestyle choice."

Giving these corrupt health insurance companies more money in the hopes they'll clean up their act is like giving an alcoholic a few more drinks in the hopes they'll sober up one day.

[martymar64]

384. You really think they want to revisit Health Insurance again this, next or any year?

If you do, then you're really high.

The ConservaDems aligned with Rahm and Obama will make sure that any chances of any fixes will be strangled in the cradle. This is the best we can expect from this crowd. Buy crappy insurance or get bitten by the IRS. Nevermind about actual health care, you won't be able to afford the deductibles and co-pays anyway.

The WH and the conservative Senate will make sure that no health care related bills will see the light of day for the remainder of Obama's term at least. They have codified a privatized system that will do little or nothing to lower costs or to actually get people healthcare. It just gives the middleman a fancy new office from which he can skim his cut while he and his buddies in the WH have a good belly laugh at all of our expense. They have served their corporates masters well. The system are mandating will be it for my lifetime at least, I predict. I guess if I want to actually get health care, I'll have to take a raft and float to Havana or sneak into Canada or even Mexico.

If this is the best they can do, then they really really suck at this.

Oh well, if they won't listen to me and my fellow citizens, then they won't deserve my vote come November this year or in 2012.

I'm done with the lot of them.

[defendandprotect]

460. If the GOP get a crack at a majority again, they'll sweeten pot for Insurance/Big Pharma . . !

and destroy what's left of American citizens!!

We need a system that treats everyone equally -- no differences --

every citizen a citizen entitled to health care --

UNVIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!

[defendandprotect]

467. Now? Nothing happens for three years!!! Or more!!! PLUS we pay for it immediately!!!

What are you talking about?

Pre-existing conditions, kids kept on parent's insurance -- these are things that

could be done immediately -- but they're not going to fall in place for years!!!



Make change later? Yeah, like once the insurance companies and Big Pharma are cemented

into our health care system we'll get them out?

And, if GOP takes over next cycle, think of the damage they can do with really setting

the insurance companies loose on the public via this bill?

Sweetening the pot for them and for Big Pharma!!


What we need is what every other nation has -- and it's ony being blocked here because

of corporate $$$$ bribing our elected officials!!

This crap doesn't treat every citizen equally . . . it's singling out people by income!!

It's a class system of health care --

Rather than UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE -- EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!!


Great start for more corporatism!!!

Obama/Rahma/DLC just loves corporatism!!

[2Design]

104. One of the few willing to fight for the people and not corporations - go Dennis n/t

[Taverner]

109. Dennis only cares about Dennis

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

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[Iowa]

195. Well said.

[Mithreal]

201. +1

[dana_b]

223. very true n/t

[Taverner]

257. Of "us"???

A bit paranoid aren't we?

Seeing things that aren't there....


Making up hidden armies of Rahm Emmanuels all set to destroy us?

I am not a paid operative, nor am I a DLC stooge as you insinuate

Just an American with a grip on reality...one which is tenuous at best for you...

Happy pony day!

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

210. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

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[Mithreal]

266. Very greeen of him. Didn't realize he had any principles.

[Name removed]

270. Deleted message

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[defendandprotect]

461. Right . .. this makes him ultra popular within the DLC/Dem party -- !!!

Are you kidding?

[suzie]

488. +1

[defendandprotect]

468. DLC ... trying to make corporations look good --and anti-corporatism look deviant!!!

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --

[elias7]

114. At least he ain't selling his vote for earmarks

[ooglymoogly]

119. and lobbyist bribes. nt

[pundaint]

140. PEOPLE! Stop clamoring for a few scraps dribbling off a corporate table that YOU are paying to set.

They've won many of you over, to the side that this very small benefit warrants the hundreds of billions of dollars committed to the corporations over time.

THE ONLY INDISPUTABLE WINNERS IN THIS BILL ARE THE FOR-PROFIT INSURERS WHO ARE THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH.

How will we ever prevail, if so many of us can't even discern the difference between win and lose?

[Mithreal]

157. +1

[NoodleyAppendage]

143. Sending money to Kucinich now to fight the corporate Dems who will try to unseat him.

A lone voice for the people, not the corporations, sings out into the night. Kucinich is a rare breed indeed. A Dem politician with spine and integrity. Too bad he practically alone.

J

[dana_b]

225. good idea - me too! n/t

[suzie]

485. The most corrupt guy in Congress--that is pretty rare.

[Lerkfish]

153. its always interesting who comes out of the woodwork to bash progressives

oh, wait, I meant predictable

[madrchsod]

163. they have been out since early this morning....

the talking point of the day...156 republicans are more democratic party friendly than dennis

[tinrobot]

254. Kucinich is voting with Republicans on this one.

I don't call that very "progressive"

[Lerkfish]

342. the bill is being compromised by blue dog dems and republicans

which makes the bill not that progressive.

[HughMoran]

523. Essentially, that's what DK supporters are doing

Acting the cultist that can't criticize their mighty leader is a massive weakness that has destroyed his credibility here - probably forever. Pat yourself on the back.

[madrchsod]

154. there`s 156 republicans that are more democratic friendly than dennis.

[YOY]

161. The anger in this thread is palpable.

Really sad.

Coming from relatively sane DUers to the guy who I am sure would applaud if Obama took a shit on his head.

[madrchsod]

169. you would think the anger should be focused on why .....

we did`t get a real reform bill. dennis is`t the problem. it`s the cowards in the democratic party.

[Mithreal]

199. Your visuals are above reproach. Tell you what,

let those who fight for average Americans do our thing and you can hide under your bed until it's over.

Yeah, palpable anger is so uncivilized. You got yours, why the fuck should anyone else be angry, am I right? Yay team.

Unless I misunderstood you :thumbsdown:

[YOY]

232. You do misunderstand me.

I am on your side. There's not a post by you up thread that I don't agree with.

The guy who would applaud as mentioned above has spouted his usual up thread as well. And yes, he would applaud if Obama told him that he would take a shit on his head.

There's times when I stick with Obama and there's times when I will criticize. This is a critical moment. I do not think this is the way to get people who are uninsured to get coverage.

This thing has NAFTA 2 written all over it. I do not expect it to end well.

[Mithreal]

239. Ack, my bad. I honestly thought I was probably misunderstanding.

[YOY]

282. Judging by the K&Rs here I'd say most of DU is with you.

I see the usual crowd who aren't and some surprises too.

[still_one]

170. up or down vote, medicare for all. The nays say we can't afford it, but

it is those very culprits who got us into two wars, one based on lies, and have no problem with spending on military systems, that even the miltary says are a waste

This is a governement of the special interests, by the special interests, and for the special interests

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[still_one]

191. Completely controlled by the Democrats, really? That in itself is definitely not

accurate in the Senate, and I don't consider blue dogs Democrats, based on major positions that they have taken

[Mithreal]

205. I smell a rat.

[jonathon]

176. Love you Dennis - forgive them, they know not what they do

[20score]

187. Thank you Dennis! Wish there were more like you in congress, then we could have actual improvement

in our health care system.

Personally I hate this bill. Using the government to bill collect for private industry is fascism.

[Deep13]

197. Deep13: a firm "no" to DCCC, DNC and conservadems.

I don't care what his stated reason is.

[ooglymoogly]

198. HELLO!!! Healthcare is not a "for profit" thing; period;

and that's a fact. The sooner we realize it and demand what is obvious to even a dolt, the sooner we can get on with our lives. Enough of this fucking bullshit. We need to fight this flim flam tooth and nail.

[pundaint]

202. +1

[Zambero]

310. Well, it shouldn't be for profit, but...

the unfortunate fact is that for-profit insurance companies are firmly entrenched and not going away any time soon. Given that reality, if 30 million+ current uninsured are provided with coverage that provides better affordability and access to health care, it's still a far better outcome than settling for the status quo.

For a tried and true single payer system that phases out the 30% of health care costs pocketed by insurance companies and applies those savings to expanded health care, progressives would need at least a 60% majority in the Senate and a working majority in the House. Factoring out DINO's who can be counted on to side with republicans, this means a 70% Democratic majority. Right now despite sizable majorities in both houses, we're at least 10% short without any prospect of improving the numbers come fall. So at this point, lying down and playing dead in the face of an ensuing GOP steamroller does not seem like a very good option.

[defendandprotect]

470. Exactly . . . plus this is not a UNIVERSAL plan . . . we need every citizen treated EQUALLY . . .

This legislation is weighing INCOME!!!

That's a class based system --

We need a system of health care -- NOT FOR PROFIT -- where every citizen is treated

like every other citizen --

MEDICARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!

[davidthegnome]

203. As usual

DK makes a firm stand for what he believes in. Whether you agree with him or not, suggesting that he's killing people or keeping them from getting the treatments they need is somewhat inaccurate. At best, this bill will insure some people who will be able to receive a very limited amount of care compared to nothing now. That is a slight step forward in the right direction. It isn't enough though - and DK is absolutely right to say so.

The question is, who stands to gain the most? The uninsured? The working class? The unemployed and disabled? No. Insurance company executives who are already multi millionaires, for the most part. I'm sure there's a great deal of little gifts to the drug companies included as well. Count me out. Business as usual has failed and will continue to fail. It's time someone had the balls to stand for the people, and DK is doing a damn good job of it in my opinion.

This bill, far from covering everyone, in fact has very little in the way of regulation. Another example of "free market" gone stupid. I can't bring myself to support a half assed measure that goes to profit the wealthy and the corrupt. So I'm with DK, unless or until they come up with something better.

[Mithreal]

208. +1 Subsidize the fabulously wealthy.

[defendandprotect]

472. + 2 -- and cementing corporatism into our HC makes it "for profit" . . .

PLUS this bill is based on weighing INCOME --

it's class based --

Whereas what we need is a system where everyone is treated EQUALLY ...

Where every citizen deserves health care and every citizen gets health care --

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE -- EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!

[SleeplessinSoCal]

211. DK may be trying to get the kind of atention Stupak got for his "cause"

[Mithreal]

226. Equating him with Stupak, wow. You all are reaching deep into the pile.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

321. I'm not equating him - just the similar effort to push their issues into the spotlight .

[Mithreal]

355. Then please don't put them in the same sentence.

Bart is scum and his office knows what I think of him.

[RoccoR5955]

217. Good for him!

This bill is nothing more than a bailout for the insurance industry. His bill, HR 676 would provide healthcare for all of us, and only affect the top 5% of income earners, and have a small tax on stock transactions. The bill is also only THIRTY pages long!

For your own copy to this brilliant bill, point your browser here: http://www.pnhp.org/nhibill/nhi_bill_final.pdf

I still stand with Dennis. He is one of the few who still work for WE THE PEOPLE, not them the corporations!

[humbled_opinion]

218. I stand with Dennis and those that don't answer this

What would you say if this exact legislation was being put forth by Bush and a Republican Majority in congress? Because with very minor tweeks this would be the exact bill a repuke would put forth...Would you support it? 500B in Medicare cuts?(remember Republicans already tried to do this) Forcing Americans to buy insurance from the corporate insurance companies? (Repuke Wet Dream).. No Public option available (gurantees corporate control)...oh of course they throw in a couple of bones to lure some moderate Democrats namely a condition that health insurance could not be denied due to pre-existing conditions but nowhere in the bill does it fix the price, nowhere so people that get all excited about this are fooling themselves insurance companies are going to continue to gouge the consumer nowhere does it say insurance companies won't be able to pool all of the pre-existing folks into low end healthcare (clinic care) the only difference now will be they will have Government approving it...

This is the worst possible legislation that the Democrats could have developed and I stand with DK in opposition to it.

[budkin]

220. I'm uber liberal and I've finally had enough of him.

Disconnecting from all his social media now...

[Mithreal]

227. Give Obama a chance. Whatever.

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinrobot]

246. Every Republican is voting against the bill - just like Kucinich.

So... who's the RepubliCON?

[Hansel]

247. It's not your place to take names of people and lump them into categories.

There are a lot of us on this board who disagree with DK because we care about people and think this HCR is a good first step toward getting universal coverage. We don't look at the issue the way you do and think DK's no vote is wrong.

This isn't the Joe McCarthy board. This is Democratic Underground.

It's time to take a deep breath and to can the hyperbole.

[Mithreal]

267. Agree with SOME of your sentiment to that DU'er

but let's see how hard you push it when the "party before principles" crowd does the same. I have seen them do it at least 10 to 1 and never a push back, not even from me. I already know they like to ignore average Americans.

And everyone has their place, hogsnot.

[Hansel]

288. There has been a lot of posts on both sides of the issues that

are a little over-the-top of impugning the motives of the people posting. And it is certainly not a 10 to 1 ratio in any stretch of the imagination. I have rarely called them out on either side. But I think this one was a bridge too far. No one should be making a group efforts to put people on black lists and to assign motives to their support on either side of an issue.

I realize things get heated and people say things they might not normally say. But I think this is a little more dangerous to the cohesiveness of the board and needs to be called out.

I don't agree with your stand on this issue because I think that passing the bill is a foot in the door. That doesn't mean that your positions are not valid and that you might not just be right in the long run. But your position I believe will result in NOTHING being done and that's been the position for 70 year. It also doesn't mean I need to organize a group of DUers and put you on a list that judges your motives in the most negative light.

I think that there are caring people on both sides of this issues. And they should be able to express their thoughts without being black listed by any group on this board.

Also, you seem to enjoy name calling. I suggest that if you are an adult and want people to take your positions more seriously, that you try to avoid that.

[Mithreal]

505. I appreciate your thoughtful response.

I agree that people speak out of frustration so I cut that DU'er slack. There is a split now in the party about what it means to be a Democrat. I don't subscribe to the New Dem philosophies. I don't know if the rift can be healed but most likely will. I am sure we will return to a lower level hostility at some point as well. This cohesiveness is poorly understood if not outright false. I welcome you to expound upon this or point me to a more fleshed out opinion, other than the ABOUT DU page.

Our disagreements are about the lives of average Americans lower and middle class and the direction of this party. Your comment suggests that personality or maturity plays some kind of a role in whether a position is taken seriously or not. There is a lot of noise on this board and I have chosen a different tactic at the moment to cut through the clutter. I don't accept unjustified unpersuasive common wisdom, a lot of that has got us in so many of the messes we are in.

A kind of love guides me, though most wouldn't know it and I live with that. I choose to push my fellow Dems to be strong and able to stand and justify what they believe. Even some of the people I am most often engaging aggressively I try to find reason to like them or respect their opinions. I am flawed, but I know who I am and what I stand for. I have the courage and confidence in my convictions. If you don't like the presentation, to each his own. Not every person can be reached with civil discussion, sometimes it takes a more aggressive approach. My way isn't yours, I get that.

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

[ooglymoogly]

238. The context in which you are using the word "uber"

bespeaks a more probable truth about your line of thinking. "Uber" as in "Uber Alles" Means "over everyone else" and bespeaks (at least since Hitler) of a dictatorship, power over all people and all matter. A title of Hitler was "Uber Alles" and was the top of the food chain in The Third Reich.

"over liberals" is an odd turn of phrase.

[felinetta]

269. Yes, a firm SCREW YOU, Dennis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HughMoran]

522. How much 'negawhining' is acceptable

...before one should see some results huh?

I also have and will promote his viewpoint in the future, but he's smoking crack on this one. His addicts don't care, but I do - I don't do crack.

[Politicub]

240. Dennis repeatedly casts his lot with the teabaggers

He frequently opposes things but rarely champions alternatives.

It got me to thinking that he has more in common with the teabaggers than Democrats at this point. Maybe he's trying to earn their support or something - like Ron Paul.

[ooglymoogly]

253. There is a cosmic difference. I think you are confusing Teabaggers with one's ability

to read the tea leaves

[liberation]

262. I personally recommend that you brush up on the concepts behind logical fallacies

before embarking on thinking expeditions.

[Mithreal]

264. Here's a decent resource on logical fallacies at the link

at least to get one started.

http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm

[Mithreal]

263. Rich. Keep em coming, might as well have all the nonsense out in the open.

Please remember to flush and don't forget to wash next time.

[nightrain]

306. HR 676, for example? Dept of Peace? Opposition to war? Removing troops?

DK certainly champions alternatives.

Maybe you're thinking of Lieberman?

[Politicub]

313. That's rhetoric - look at his record of getting his bills passed

By that measure, he's quite useless.

[nightrain]

323. I wonder what Gandhi would say about supporting disease management corporations?

Think DK and Gandhi have anything in common in terms of their approaches? "Action", particularly non-violent type looks different. Think of it in those terms.

[depakid]

245. Could be the angry mob might want to read his actual position

rather than sounding off without knowing what you're talking about:

Kucinich tells his side of the story on Democracy Now!

In a lengthy interview on Democracy Now! with Amy Goodman, Congressman Dennis Kucinich explained why he would not vote for the present health care bill and defended his position against attacks from people on the left like Markos Moulitsas. He also spoke about the subjects of Afghanistan, campaign finance, and the passing of activist Granny D.

I mean, I have a responsibility to take a stand here on behalf of those who want a public option. There’s about thirty-four members of the Senate, at least, who have signed on to saying they support a public option. If I were to just concede right now and say, “Well, you know, whatever you want. All this pressure’s building. Just forget about it,” actually weakens every last-minute bit of negotiations that would try to improve the bill. So I think that it’s really critical to take this stand, because without it, there’s no real control over premiums. Without it, we have nothing in the bill except the privatization of our healthcare system.

The main topic of the interview was health care. Earlier in the week, of course, Kucinich said that he was willing to be the deciding vote against this health care bill. However, on Democracy Now! the Congressman said that his vote was not by a long shot a guaranteed “no:”

AMY GOODMAN: Is anything that would cause you to support the bill at this point?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, I mean, it’s—we don’t have the vote yet. The ball is still in play. The White House could decide that in order to pass the bill, they need to put public option in it, a meaningful public option. That would certainly get my attention. Or they could decide that they also want to protect the right of states to proceed with single payer, and not some place far into the future, but do it now. I mean, you have movements in Pennsylvania and in California, in my own state of Ohio, for states to be able to take responsibility for healthcare. I mean, create the possibility now. Let the momentum go in many different areas. But to say 2017 at best, and then it’s an if-come waiver to not permit the states to have legal protection against challenge by the insurance companies?

I should just mention here that I’m involved with the movement for single payer in Pennsylvania, which is currently supporting a bipartisan bill (with support from the governor and the state Democratic party, as well) in the state legislature.

There are two things that Kucinich is demanding, and apparently trying to get by building up pressure, from the health care bill. It remains unclear if he would vote for a bill with just one of the two. One is, of course, a strong public option, a subject which has been covered to death. The other is a way to change ERISA so that it does not interfere with implementing single payer systems on a state by state basis.

AMY GOODMAN: Congressman Kucinich, President Obama says that the Senate bill does include single-payer language. He was talking about a provision by Senator Bernie Sanders which would allow states to use federal money to set up a single-payer system years down the road. What do you think of that?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, it provides for a waiver; it doesn’t grant the waiver. And it takes effect 2017. But by then, we’ll already have a system in place that will be very difficult to move out of. And it doesn’t cure the attack that insurance companies can make on state plans using the Employee—the ERISA Act. And so, my amendment that was passed in committee would have protected states from illegal challenge by insurance companies. The Sanders amendment doesn’t do that, so you still have the problem that, no matter what reforms are enacted, can be knocked out. I mean, I talked to the President personally about this. I’ve met with the President three times on this bill. The White House knows my position.

More: http://blogs.alternet.org/rossl/2010/03/13/kucinich-tells-his-side-of-the-story-on-democracy-now/

[Jefferson23]

249. I stand with Kucinich.

[Enthusiast]

341. Mee Too!

[davidthegnome]

251. Another thing about the current bill

It is blatantly unconstitutional. Are we even living in a democracy? A bill that basically forces people to buy health insurance, or pay a fine? That's what disturbs me the most about it. Not allowing denial based on pre-existing conditions is a good idea - vouchers would help. The lack of meaningful regulation however, added to the lack of any choice on the part of the individual (Well, you could choose to pay a fine, or choose to face the consequences if you can't - some choice) strikes me as somewhat frightening.

Also, to compare DK with the tea baggers is like comparing Gandhi to Hitler. I understand that many people support this bill, for reasons they believe are good ones, but DK has always been a man that has stood up for the right things. The Iraq War and the Patriot act were things he was in strong opposition to. Now that may not count for something with everyone, but it does with me. He has been right on far more occasions than he has been wrong. The respect he has is well deserved and well earned. Whether he's right or wrong on this issue is something people have strong feelings about - but right or wrong, he is a decent man deserving of some respect.

(Edited for spelling, whoops)

[Mithreal]

272. Both parties treat the Constitution like toilet paper. Dems to a much lesser extent, of course.

[HughMoran]

524. 63 POSTS DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE IN THIS ONE THREAD!!!!!

Holy fucking crap - it's just not worth it!

[Mithreal]

554. Are you finished?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsx2vdn7gpY

[HughMoran]

556. Are YOU????

Holy crap!!!

(oh, and it anybody thinks I ever have or ever will click on an unattributed Youtube video, you're mistaken)

[Mithreal]

558. Your loss.

[icee]

353. You're right. People cannot be forced to buy insurance or pay

a fine under our Constitution. This is not like auto insurance. With auto insurance the statues involved the car. Car has to be insured. A car is not a constitutional person. HCR will be overturned, or at least that section, should it pass. The Democratic Whip says they do not have the votes, but will..... He is forced to say "we will" because of his job.

[Romulox]

265. Dennis speaks for me. K/R. nt

[still_one]

292. Whether I agree with Dennis or not, one thing cannot be argued, he is not bought and paid for

and doesn't play political games

[imkcbucky]

274. Thank You Dennis

Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean.... Those are about the only politicians I completely trust... If Dennis says NO than trust me everyone... He has YOUR best interest at heart. Stop the hating on Dennis nonsense... Damm DU where did all these Blue Dogs come from today?

[Hansel]

314. Bernie Sanders says it should be passed. And so does Howard Dean. nt

[Crunchy Frog]

396. Just a bunch of corporate DLCers.

[No Elephants]

568. Yes, but both immediately add that it needs improvement ASAP, in the form of (at least) a strong

public option.

And both also say the real solution is single payer.

So, it all comes down to whether one believes that rapid improvement will be forthcoming. I don't.

[icee]

281. Great, Dennis. Stay away from those DLC crooks. Pure garbage.

[Christa]

290. I am so disappointed in him nt

[Zambero]

300. He makes Ralph Nader look like a team player

The Republicans would love for every Democratic congressman to be as ideologically "principled" as Kucinich. Because they would be 100% confident (and 100% correct) that NOTHING meaningful would EVER be enacted. The GOP would happily exploit 'zero-results do-nothing Democrats' as a campaign theme with which to regain power and ultimately drag the country down to a point of no return. I say give Dennis a formidable primary challenger, and let's see him campaign in his home district for a change. Whether he wins or loses, he can be the perennial "Harold Stassen" of the left presidential candidate racking up 1% of the primary vote every four years. The HCR reconciliation strategy being put forth by Congress is not all of what I'd hoped for either. But it's something to build on, and God forbid if the Republicans somehow regain control, "spoilers" such as Kucinich will be at least partially to blame.

[geezerpk]

319. He makes Ralph Nader look like a team player — Sad but true

I love Dennis K's courage, but lament his lack of reality. Just like Nader's misdirected moral imperative brought on 8 years of GWB and tens of thousands of deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. If Dennis casts the vote killing this bill, it's likely the matter will not be taken up for another 15 years or more. Is it worth it Dennis? Passing something weak and hoping to strengthen it later is risky, but passing nothing at all is literally and figuratively deadly for a lot of people.:argh: :argh:

[davidthegnome]

358. Principles are the foundation

Of any political organization, party, whatever. Without our principles we are nothing - if we are willing to sacrifice them for the "greater good" then in general, I'd say we had better be damn sure it's for the greater good. Kucinich's principles, to me, shine as a beacon amidst chaos. I'll grant you that if he is alone in standing on principle, it's a damn lonely place to be and he may, as a result, be somewhat ineffective. That is not, however, a failing of HIS.

Rather, it is a failing of the status quo, of the many who neither stand by their beliefs nor make even a half hearted attempt to tell the truth. Ideological principles may not always achieve results, but because I prefer to live in a Country where they do (at least when the ideology is sound) I will always support those who stand for the right things. So perhaps I'm ineffective too, but I can tell you, that if we all had the nerve and the "ideological principle" that Dennis Kucinich has, it would be a far better Country.

(Edited for one of the few grammatical errors I noticed)

[RBInMaine]

302. Kucinich is being a complete non-reality asswipe ! PISS ONHIM !

[LatteLibertine]

304. It's going to be interesting

if HCR fails by one vote.

If it does President Obama and the Democrats will be gimped for the rest of his term. You can forget about them getting anything meaningful done after this loss. As a result, you'll likely see the return of a Republican majority. We should get good HCR then, eh?

The GOP and the lobbyists thank you Dennis.

[Hansel]

309. I think this is a very good assessment of what the result will be.

Unfortunately.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

459. If this thing passes and the public finally gets wind of mandates with no...

insurance industry cost controls, 2010 and 2012 will be a blood-bath for the Dems. The vast majority of Americans -- those in the mushy middle -- are clueless and not sweating the details.

Virginia first state in nation to pass anti-mandate health reform bill
http://ifawebnews.com/2010/03/11/virginia-first-state-in-nation-to-pass-anti-mandate-health-reform-bill/

While 34 other states have considered or partially passed legislation to ban any federal mandate to secure health insurance coverage, the Virginia General Assembly has passed a bill that is expected to get the signature of the state’s governor.

By an 80-17 vote, the Virginia House of Delegates passed HB 10, sponsored by Del. Robert G. Marshall (R-13th District), which states that no resident of the commonwealth shall be required to obtain or maintain individual insurance coverage. All 17 “nay” votes were cast by Democratic delegates.

Gov. Bob McDonnell, a Republican, has already said he would sign the bill into law, making Virginia the first state in the nation to challenge any mandates that could be handed down from Washington, D.C.

~snip~

On the same day the Virginia General Assembly passed Marshall’s bill, the Idaho Senate also approved the Idaho Health Freedom Act (HB 391), which deems the individual mandate unconstitutional and permits the state to sue Congress or any other body enforcing such a mandate.

[Citizen Kang]

305. Thank you Dennis

For standing for your principles and voting NO on this abomination of a bill!

[Faygo Kid]

307. Oops! Maybe not.

I disagree with you. Pass it and make it better. At any rate, he won't be the vote that kills the bill and hands the thugs in the Republican Party victory. I don't think Dennis would do that.

We'll see, won't we?

[martymar64]

390. There won't be a "make it better" bill. Rahm and Obama will see to that.

As soon as this abortion of a bill is passed, they will never breathe the words' "health care reform" again. They will employed their whole propaganda machine to change the subject. They want to get to everything else they can think of get get peoples minds off the fact that they are now in debt in this country to private insurance for the simple fact that they are breathing. They have a good six months or so before the November election to change the subject and "move on" and "look forward".
This is our only shot here and they blew it. They'll do what they want anyways, they really care fuck-all about us. We'll be forced to eat their shit sandwich under penalty of law and when the base stays home in droves in retaliation, they'll have nobody but themselves to blame.

This administration has been a disappointment all around.

[dana_b]

317. +1 n/t

[marasinghe]

329. long past time for DK to go solo & for me to leave DU to its subset of plutocrat ass kissers (n/t)

[theFrankFactor]

349. Amazin' Ain't It? Nixon's a Liberal by the Standards We See Here! Such Pussies.

I remember when I first read a comment on DU that someone thought Kucinich was an ego maniac! I thought, so the closer someone gets to standing up for what Democrats voted for the more they become an ego maniac?
It's like some Democrats are so used to the taste of GOP (blue dog) testicles that top shelf whisky makes them cry.

[martymar64]

391. Good one Frank!

[Faygo Kid]

354. OK. We'll miss your 160 posts.

Guess we will just have to carry on without you. 'Bye! :hi:

[BeatleBoot]

331. BeatleBoot: "A Firm 'NO' to Kucinich's Healthcare"

Bite me, I'm not paying for your ass anymore.

[Lerkfish]

343. actually, do you know anything about Kucinich's healthcare plan back during the election?

if we had adopted HIS plan, we would be in good shape.

[BeatleBoot]

356. Yeah, except those darn votes weren't there

sometimes those "votes against" just get in the way and you have to make do.

Or you can claim "being principled" and vote against your own party and american families.

It's Dennis's right, I guess.

Point is, his vote doesn't really mean squat now, anyways.

So Dennis will just be remembered as voting against his own party and against the first steps towards health care reform.

We can put his picture on the same wall as Bart Stupak and all the others.

[Akoto]

334. Thanks, Dennis, for letting my pre-existing condition keep me out. n/t

[merkins]

338. Stand Firm Dennis!

K&R

[AzDar]

345. Dennis is right.

:thumbsup:

[Faryn Balyncd]

348. Dennis is right and has balls. We need more like him to keep us from going over the cliff.

[SocialistLez]

363. I'd vote for Kucinich

It's Obama who needs to be saying no to this health insurance bailout bill.
We deserve better!!

I am proud of Kucinich and any one else who stands firm for single-payer.

Voting for this bill will make single-payer much harder in the future. Do you think the health insurance industry will let their little gravy train go without a HUGE fight? They will be fighting against reform with taxpayer dollars. How do you like them apples?

[4dsc]

365. With mandates this bill sucks and should be defeated..

that is all..

[defendandprotect]

448. This is the opposite of UNIVERSAL health care -- everyone EQUAL . . .

This is a class system -- where earnings are weighed --

this stinks to high heaven!!

WE WANT EQUAL TREATMENT FOR EVERYONE ---

MEDICARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!!

Every other nation can do this and we can't?


$635 Million a year to protect our ridiculous Taj Mahal of an Embassy in Iraq????

Whose values are these?

[hulka38]

368. Everybody but Dennis for this Frankenstein's monster?

My party just took a gigantic turd on the ideals that I still hoped it stood for. The charade that they wanted a PO was an unnecessary insult and will damage the party come November.

[dsharp88]

371. It's both good enough and not good enough.

It is not good enough to be the end of health care legislation.
It is good enough to be a small first step that will be correctable in the near future with further legislation whereas a loss here would not be correctable in the near future with further legislation because there wouldn't be a chance for anymore legislation.

This is our only shot as a first step for the near future. Our last shot? 1993. 17 years ago.

Beyond any doubt, Ted Kennedy would have been a YES vote on this matter because of the mistake he said he made in 1993 - a similar stance that Dennis is taking now.

Dennis has great ideals. We can all agree on that. On procedure, however, he may not be making the right move here. I don't want it to be ruined until 2027.

[wial]

372. I must say I'm sick to death

of the Stalinist line that any dissension plays into the enemy's hands. Those who court the center as "good cops" desperately need a few "bad cops" so they can say "deal with us so Dennis doesn't come visiting, and you know what we mean." As the anarchists used to say, "be realistic, demand the impossible." There well always be well-brought-up lawyers to cut the deals and compromise away almost everything worth trying to achieve or protect, but at least we can make sure the playing field, in one far, lonely corner, includes a little bit of the truth.

Kucinich is a true hero.

And dare I say it, so was Nader.

The truly sick thing is polls show again and again that so-called extreme progressive position perfectly expresses the stated aspirations of the American people.

But we can't have that, now, when we can have short term meaningless victory instead! People need prestige born from political deals negotiated via Ivy League networking!

shudder. Same as it ever was, I suppose.

But DON'T tell me not to support the good guys and the basic decency they stand for.

[blackflame]

375. God Bless Kucinich:

this monster of a bill is giving to the ones who cause this mess,at lest Kucinich haves the balls to stand up to these thugs :)

[ProSense]

379. Kucinich wants his amendment, but here

is the reality

[SandWalker1984]

380. Dennis does not support American enslavement to corporate rule

Debbierlus posted on the following on DU back on November 21st. Now is an excellent time to remind everyone of what Debbierlus said at that time.

Health Insurance Reform: The Enslavement of American Citizens to Corporate Rule

After months of silent, closed door negotiations between the holy trinity (the executive branch, the congress, & the health care industry), we stand on the brink of health insurance reform.

Health insurance reform. Do not confuse this with health care reform as that was never the intent of this legislation. This is not a minor point. Health care reform would have addressed the central problem of our current health care system and confronted the reality that in order to provide universal, affordable health care for all citizens, we would need to stop treating human health as a commodity. It would have taken a moral imperative to place human life over profit. But, right from the very beginning, the central GOAL in creating this legislation was just the opposite, the development of a plan that not only maintained, but expanded the ability of the health care industry (private insurers, big pharm, large hospitals) to profit off human illness.

And, that has what has been created. A bill that enshrines private health care companies as the government mandated model for health care administration. A bill that will provide 70 billion dollars in subsidies to private insurance companies, at the expense of universal, affordable coverage for every American citizen. A bill that negotiated away the government's ability to stop big pharm price gouging, in exchange for a phony bargain where the pharmaceutical companies would cut up to 8 billion dollars in costs over the next ten years while they elevated prices 10 billion this year alone. A bill that does not allow reimportation of drugs from Canada and holds the American people hostage to a mob type system of pay or die. Under this bill, millions will not be able to afford their prescriptions. Millions more will be forced to choose medication, food, or heat.

Under this bill, denial of care will be allowed for a thousand other reasons then the sole prohibited exception of a preexisting condition.

Under this bill, health care coverage will remain a game of chance.

Under this system, class difference may still determine whether you live or die.


The promoters of this legislation claim that this bill will provide health insurance to 96% of the population. But, they fail to note that doesn't mean it provides health care to 96% of the American people. The reality is that tens of millions will only be able to afford plans that provide either minimal or catastrophic coverage. Millions more will opt out entirely and pay the fine to avoid tax penalties or jail time. Millions more won't be able to pay the fine, and they will incur a thousand dollar penalty in addition to the hundreds of dollars they could not afford to pay to opt out. Or, they will go to jail.

Bankruptcy from medical bills will continue en force with this legislation. The most affordable 'comprehensive' policies are allowed to only cover up to 60% of costs. If anyone with a 'comprehensive' policy such as this meets with the bad fate of a chronic or life threatening illness (or even a single hospitalization), they will stand in very real danger of being financially ruined even with their insurance coverage.

Under pressure from the executive branch, the Congress removed the only strong amendment in the House bill that would allow a state from emancipating from the enslavement to corporate insurance by developing their own single payer plans. The Kucinich amendment which would have prevented insurance companies from suing states who developed single payer at the state level is gone. So, yes. That means states can be SUED by private insurance companies for developing an alternate system that would provide universal, affordable and comprehensive coverage to its citizens.

Industry profit above all else.

This reform is being accepted from the American people out of ignorance and sheer and total desperation. We have acquiesced to the corporate dictate for so long, we forget that we even have the alternative to fight back against policies that put our very lives at risk for the sole purpose of corporate and shareholder profit. We have become so accustomed to the myth of compromise,
we have relinquished our principles to the point of our own powerlessnes. So, it is with this legislation. Better to take what crumbs are thrown, then to stand on conviction and demand true reform. Something is better then nothing. Our fear is so great, we cower and give up before we even begin to fight. But, until we break this circle, we will be left with less and less, and our power to influence will be all but impotent.

This legislation was written to save the health insurance system from the collapse which was soon to come. A collapse which very well could have precipitated the transition to single payer.

Why are we reviving the beast?

**********************

We should not settle for crumbs. The Senate bill, which the House is about to rubberstamp, is about MANDATING INSURANCE, NOT ABOUT BETTER HEALTH CARE. Insurance does not = health care. Health insurance companies make profits by DENYING THEIR CUSTOMERS HEALTH CARE.

I refuse to go along and play along. If the Senate version of the bill had been proposed and passed by Republicans, most of you would be screaming your heads off about how bad the bill was, how many loopholes it contains, how it is nothing more than mandated profits for the insurance industry and how the Republicans are owned by corporations. Sticking a "D" next to the bill doesn't make the pile of shit smell any better.

If the Senate bill passes and is signed into law by Obama, WE WILL ALL BE GIVING UP ALL CHANCE OF TRUE HEALTH CARE REFORM in our lifetimes. The health care industry, who is already powerful enough to control the writing of this bill will gain even more money, more power and more control over future members of Congress. They will not allow future regulation or legislation that will impact the way they do business or their profits.

Forget about reconciliation. NAFTA hasn't been fixed in over 17 years. It's still destroying the middle class and the value of the dollar. These corporatists cannot be trusted. Enough is enough!

I voted for change we can believe in, NOT corporate chains we will be in.

[gulliver]

381. "Kucinich, who said later he remains uncommitted..."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/15/politics/main6302179.shtml?tag=stack

[RoccoR5955]

383. Please... CBS news, is Fox News Lite!

I have seen them only professing the right wing point of view more than a number of times.

[kstewart33]

382. Dennis is a preening peacock.

My way or no way!

I stand true to my principles! I'm a great protest voter! Many years in Congress - and only 3 of my bills have been passed into law!

What a record! Who cares! As long as I stand for purified liberalism!

And now, my crowning achievement! No to insuring 30 million people! No to removing the pre-existing conditions trap!

No, no, no!



Yeah, sure. He's one heck of a legislator. Oh no, wait. Doesn't legislator mean participating in the process to actually....legislate?

He'll cave and vote for the bill.

Even Dennis isn't this big of a schmuck.

[western mass]

386. RW spin in the 2nd line of this article

"Not progressive enough" for Kucinich ?!!

The problem is that this is a REGRESSIVE bill. A massive handout to the health insurance industry that entrenches a broken systen and does nothing to fix its worst problems. The idea that there's anything progressive about this bill is pure right-wing spin.

[johnaries]

388. As much as I like and respect Kuch, I'm done with him.

To "stand up for your principles" is one thing. To be an obstructionist to Progress is another.

We need a voice like his. But at the end of the day, we need someone who will vote for the American people - even if it's not everything we wanted.

If he can't compromise, then he's just as much an obstructionist as the Republicans. His principles may be different, but the end result is the same.

If he can't see that, if he can't see that he is defeating his own cause in the name of - well, whatever you want to call it - then he is worse than those who purposely work to defeat progress.

At least they are honest about it.

Kuchinich is the Ron Paul of the Proressive Movement. Always the Idealist. Never the Pragmitist. Always the Spoiler.

I love Kuch. I think we need his voice. I never thought I would ever hear myself say this, but - he needs to go. More than a voice we need someone who is willing to do what's best for the American People.

[flyarm]

389. Thank you Dennis ..you are the only one left in Congress that reminds me of a real democrat!

One with Balls and integrity and gives a real damn about Americans !

and i called his ofice today and said just that!

[suede1]

393. Wish people would stop settling for talking points and demand congress and the White House do their

jobs. They really are supposed represent the people and do right by the country. They have failed miserably and it sad to see people cheering that.

[Birthmark]

394. Good on Dennis.

I'd vote 'no', too, if I were in Congress. It's a POS, possibly unConstitutional, expensive, and will do very little for the average person. And it will only get worse over time.

[colsohlibgal]

395. Remember - Only The US

This bill as is changes nothing about the big picture, we will still be the only non two bit country in the world to allow obscene profit, or really any profit at all, for health care. Add to that that the fact that on top of health care we in the US separately have to pay for dental insurance and then vision insurance - which adds to our cost. Oh, and dental insurance stinks for any real work.

This bill will fix a few things but notice the language from the proponents has switched from lowering health care costs to reigning in increases - if it's too expensive now, how does that help?

Finally the real fishy thing at this point, is Pelosi saying how she is for the public option but the votes aren't there - when there is pretty solid video evidence that the votes are there. It all lends credence to the story that the deal was struck a long time ago with the insurance folks that there would be no public option. My minds eye just can't scrub the mental picture lurking there, of insurance executives all set to party like it's 1999 for dodging the bullet via money well spent.

Kudos to Dennis for sticking to his guns.

[defendandprotect]

451. It's not UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE with everyone treated EQUALLY . . .

it's the opposite -- weighing salaries, net worth -- near poverty, close to povery,

total poverty -- rather than treating everyone simply as a citizen entitled to health care!!!

This is disgusting!!!

LOVE DENNIS . . .!!!

:) :)

[Gman]

397. What a Republican. With friends like this guy, who needs enemies

[suede1]

398. The country needs friends like him. Think you're confused on who your friends are.

And to call him a Republican is a pretty low information thing to say.

[Gman]

401. I don't need or want friends like Kucinich

He's a Republican in drag.

[defendandprotect]

454. Rather the DLC is the friend of the insurance/Pharm industry . . .

and unfortunately they're not only in the Democratic Party -- they're in

the White House!!!

Disgusting!!

[Svafa]

399. Forcing people who can't afford to buy insurance

to buy it anyway is a terrible excuse for a health care plan. Good for Kucinich to stand up to the big insurance companies and their shills!

[David Zephyr]

403. Thank you, Dennis. Behold the great support Dennis has here.

To the minority who despise Dennis here, I hope you read this thread and see the well of love and support that my fellow DU'ers have for this brave Congresman from Ohio.

K&R.

[defendandprotect]

445. They hate Kucinich, but love private deal making, love insurance companies. . .

love giving our $$$ away to insurance and Big Pharm!!

And, doubt that the fascist gang of 5 would ever finding FORCING people to buy

insurance company coverage would be anti-Constitutional!!!

[New Dawn]

404. Kucinich: a folk hero in the making. Bring on the 2012 presidential primary.

[liquid diamond]

405. Words cannot describe how much I hate that little shit.

Fuck you DK.

[Mike K]

419. Kucinich is a fighter.

As such he is not willing to accept the kind of compromise the diluted HCR bill represents. He represents the percentage of Americans who want the Public Option and are willing to take a punch rather than take a dive and give in to what the insurance industry is tossing at them. As a fighter he knows that getting the Public Option, or even single payer, will not happen without a lot of pain and struggle. Demanding these concessions from the insurance industry is revolutionary politics and revolutions are never won by compromise. Give in and you're finished.

Kucinich knows this.

[ShamelessHussy]

426. Thank you Sir, for fighting for real reform

:toast:

[NewEngland4Obama]

427. Kucinich remains uncommitted

Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, who flew with President Barack Obama, then walked into an Ohio senior citizen center with the chief executive in time to hear a voice from the audience yell out, "Vote yes."

A smiling Obama turned to the liberal lawmaker and said, "Did you hear that, Dennis?" Then, turning back to the audience, he added, "Go ahead, say that again."

"Vote yes!" came back the reply.

Kucinich, who said later he remains uncommitted, is one of 37 Democrats currently in the House who voted against Obama's legislation when it cleared the House last fall.






http://www.kansascity.com/2010/03/15/1813504/obama-heads-to-ohio-looking-for.html#ixzz0iJ9mUq4B

[Dr.Phool]

469. A friend of mine just got off the phone with Dennis,

He's a "NO".

[jonthebru]

434. S crew him

I like what he says sometimes, but right now its all about him and his ego. Who is his primary opponent and how can I support that person
S crew him.

[defendandprotect]

476. Nonsense. . .this is about Obama/Rahma private deals with corporations . . .

it's about UNEQUAL health care -- rather than a UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM

which would treat all citizens equally --

This crap is class based -- incomes weighed!!

That's a really GOP gimmick!!

[SoCalDemGrrl]

572. Yeah I agree- Called his office today to voice my opinion

I like most Dems don't love this bill, but shit we've been visiting this issue for 40+ years and sometimes

you have to take "baby steps" knowing that things will improve over time.

AT THIS POINT - SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING.

PLEASE DENNIS VOTE YES we can better it in the next few years.

[grahamhgreen]

437. He speaks for me, the senate bill is the opposite of what we need (Medicare expansion). nt

[Democat]

450. In this case, you either vote with Obama or with the Republicans

Like it or not, this vote will probably define the Obama presidency, at least the first term.

If you want to take Obama down, vote against it. If you want to support him and his agenda, vote for it.

Most idealists here on DU don't care, but that's the way it looks politically right now.

Also, if this goes down, I doubt you'll see another major health bill get close to passing in many years.

[defendandprotect]

475. No -- it's a vote for DLC corporatism ... or a vote for UNIVERSAL health care . . .

where everyone is treated EQUALLY ...

And that kind of system isn't based on INCOME . . . it's based on every citizen

beging treated as an equal.

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

479. You don't think that mandates with no insurance industry costs controls...

will take down Obama and the Dems? At least 34 states are pushing legislation that makes them unconstitutional. It's gonna get u-g-l-y; well, uglier than this clusterfuck already is...

[SoCalDemGrrl]

573. Agree completely Repubs said this is Obamas Waterloo- FU if u vote no

on this - you, like Nader in 2000, will have a whole lot of explaining to do.

Like Don Quixote twisting in the wind - Kucinich will wave a flag of impotence if he votes no.

A Pyhrric victory to say the least.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

574. Hey Dennis- Ask Nader how he feels now about Gore/Bush 2000

Nader's principled grandstanding led to the worst 8 years in recent U.S. history and you will be accomplishing the same feat with a NO vote against Obama and the Dems.

Yeah - go ahead be the "principled" one who stands tilting against the wind.

I'm sorry I love Dennis but on this he is being STUPID if he continues to vote no and brings down reform.

[t0dd]

464. K&R

:applause:

[jkd]

471. Jim Matheson

I've got a picture of Mitt Romney as a advertisement at the top of my page; can you believe that?

On March 09, a letter in the Salt Lake Tribute gave some good advise to Jim Matheson, a blue dog from the Utah 2nd Congressional District. DK will not vote for this bill because it is not progressive enough. Congressman Matheson wants to get elected in a very Republican Utah. Here's the advise; I think it applies to both men. The writers name is Jeff Cole. This is the last paragraph of his letter.

“This health care reform bill, however flawed, is better than the alternative, which is the evermore expensive and increasingly exclusionary status quo.
If Matheson is looking for a better bill, one that addresses all of his specific reservations, he will die waiting, and as a result, so, too, will many others, prematurely. As Voltaire wrote in his poem 'La Begueule.' ' The perfect is the enemy of the good.'”

[mvd]

491. Whatever he decides, I know he thinks it will be good for the country

I did hear he is considering voting yes now.

[mvd]

493. However, if he votes no, I will remain a DK fan

I don't think it would be the end of the world to start over, though I'd reluctantly vote yes (and definitely not quietly). I'd stress how I did not like how the process went, and how much we need improvements.

[suzie]

494. Of all the people on the Democratic side, Dennis Kucinich cares less than any whether or not

this will be good for the country.

In that, he is exactly like a Republican, using the issue health care only to try and add to his own personal power.

[mvd]

496. As I said, I will not agree with this

You can say it over and over, but that will not make it right.

With that, I am leaving the conversation with you.

[punkin87]

499. Thank you Dennis! You rock! At least one person has courage and a conscience.

[True_Blue]

502. Howard Dean is opposed to this bill also

http://ofthisandthat.org/LettertoPresident.html

[True_Blue]

503. Michael Moore - "This Healthcare Reform Bill Is A Death Sentence For Tens Of Thousands"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tez2u5UFCqA

[mzmolly]

544. NO reform is a death sentence.

eom

[tomhayes]

579. Geez, first you post a link to aa satire sight

And then you make it sound like Michael Moore thinks this bill will KILL people if enacted.

He is saying that the pre-existing condition changes take too long to go in effect in this bill. (Watch the interview)

Well GUESS WHAT - if the bill doesn't pass those changes NEVER take place.

This bill KILLS or SENTENCES NO ONE TO DEATH.

I think you missed his point - he wants provision in this bill to take effect SOONER - not that this bill will KILL people.

[cyclezealot]

504. Act Blue to his defense

Against Fire Dog Lake.. We just gave DK a small contribution.. We are of mixed feelings.. We favor a yes vote for this lousy H.C. plan, but not sure why.. Very well the Goopers are right. there will be a negative reaction to the requirement we buy lousy private plans...
Hopefully , DK's vote will not be necessary to pass this less than perfect bill, which is a sell out to private insurance.. We can always count on DK to do the right thing..
. Did we not mean it when the progressive caucus said last fall.. If there is no public option, it's a no go.. We can always count on DK to be honest and not betray his own words.. When I told my COngressman last Fall in our telephone calls Such, and I meant it...

[Egnever]

506. Thats cause his vote doesnt matter.

It's grandstanding, Kooch is good at it.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

576. God, please let that be true that his vote is not the deciding one.

[orbitalman]

510. +129

[freddie mertz]

512. DK just refuses to get "bogged down" in the lies and corporate bullshit.

I admire him for it.

[marshall]

575. Strange bedfellows, here

DK, with all the right reasons, is aligned with folks who just want to thwart Obama, or they want to limit choice for women in regards to abortion, etc. But regardless of their motives what they want in this one instance coincides. As soon as the dust settles they will go their separate ways, thank goodness.

[Freddie Stubbs]

578. Seems like that 'firm' no has changed into a flacid yes

[robcon]

584. That "yes" was bought, IMO.

Kucinich's "no" was always principled, although wrong-headed, IMO.

Something made him change his 'principles'... either a reward for his "yes," or a threat if he went through with the "no."

[robcon]

586. Or both.

n/t