Retired US General: Gay Dutch Troops Contributed to Srebrenica Massacre

[Newsjock]

Source: Voice of America

A former top U.S. and NATO commander says the Netherlands' inclusion of gays in their military rendered Dutch peacekeeping troops unable to prevent the slaughter of thousands of Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica in 1995.

Retired U.S. Marine General John Sheehan led the U.S. Atlantic Command and served as the top NATO commander in the mid-1990s, the height of ethnic cleansing in former-Yugoslavia.

He told the Senate Armed Services Committee that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the U.S. military would breed friction and undermine unit cohesion in the armed forces. Asked by Senator Carl Levin whether other nations, like Britain and Israel, had suffered as a result of ending their nation's bans on gay military service, the general said "yes."

Sheehan pointed to the Netherlands, which he said embarked on a process of social engineering in the Dutch military once the Cold War ended. "They declared a peace dividend and made a conscious effort to socialize their military. It included open homosexuality. That led to a force that was ill-equipped to go to war," he said.

... Asked for comment, Dutch military officials expressed astonishment. The spokesman for the Netherlands Ministry of Defense, Roger van de Wetering, told VOA Sheehan's assertions are "total nonsense" and that he "cannot believe that a man of that rank is stating such a thing." He added that he had never heard Sheehan's allegation before from any source in the Netherlands or anywhere else.


Read more: http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Retired-US-General-Gay-Dutch-Troops-Contributed-to-Srebrenica-Massacre--88450667.html

[Brickbat]

1. This is getting fucking embarrassing.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. The stupidity is beyond the pale!

[yava]

48. I prefer don't ask don't say but to accuse gays of closing eyes

on a massacre just because they are gay means this guy is simply anti-gay and using his previous position to get news coverage for it.
He should be sued!

[AlbertCat]

65. The stupidity is beyond the pale!

The stupid AT THE TOP.... OF EVERYTHING is down right scary. Generals, Senators, Reps, Judges.... this is what 30 years of leaning to the right does.

[FarrenH]

3. From the interview that follows

It sounds like the general was just making stuff up.

[Solly Mack]

4. Damn

[hobbit709]

5. Every day the nuts hit a new level of stoopid.

[FiveGoodMen]

9. One day we will have to go to open war against them.

Reason clearly doesn't work.

[LakeSamish706]

6. Let me guess, he's a Republican I bet! n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

7. I wish a horrible, agonizing death upon Retired U.S. Marine General John Sheehan

[The Magistrate]

8. What A Stupid Man This Is, Sir: A Disgrace To Gen. Butler's Marine Corps....

The Dutch soldiers were under orders not to shoot, and outnumbered at least ten to one. No further cause need be looked for....

[KittyWampus]

16. Ah, but REAL manly men would disobey orders and each soldier fight with the fury of ten .

Was Audie Murphy gay? I think not.
Seargant York? Not.
Rambo? Not.

[Arctic Dave]

10. When I was in the military this fool was the rule and not the exception.

I really believe you have to be mentally ill to rise in rank in the military.

[meegbear]

11. Teh Stupid! It burns!!!

[David Zephyr]

12. What a vile "story".

[Kolesar]

13. "Socialize the military"? Does that mean make the government run it??

Stupid is on overdrive with this one.

[Edweird]

14. That,....uh...That ....just doesn't make any fucking sense.

[ejbr]

15. Okay, I'll play along...

the fact that the United States did not allow openly gay members in the military during the Vietnam War was the reason we did so poorly there.

[Ignis]

17. Good on Levin for holding Gen. Arseface's feet to the fire on this.

Linking the massacre to the Netherlands allowing gays in the military prompted this exchange with Senator Levin, who seemed perplexed by Sheehan's assertion.

SHEEHAN: "That {Srebrenica} was the largest massacre in Europe since World War II."
LEVIN: "And did the Dutch leaders tell you it was because there were gay soldiers there?"
SHEEHAN: "It was a combination ..."
LEVIN: "Did they tell you {that gay soldiers were to blame}, that is my question."
SHEEHAN: "Yes."
LEVIN: "They did?"
SHEEHAN: "They included that as part of the problem."

Does anyone think that any Dutch leader in his right mind will come forward to corroborate this story?

[Tempest]

18. Sheehan should be made to say who told him that

The Dutch military is denying it.

[DutchLiberal]

39. Sheehan mentioned one "Hankman Berman", who's unknown to the Dutch embassy...

The Dutch embassador in Washington said to CNN:

“I couldn’t disagree more. I take pride in the fact that lesbians and gays have served openly and with distinction in the Dutch military forces for decades, including in leading operational positions, such as in Afghanistan at the moment. The military mission of Dutch UN soldiers at Srebrenica has been exhaustively studied and evaluated, nationally and internationally. There is nothing in these reports that suggests any relationship between gays serving in the military and the mass murder of Bosnian Muslims.”

http://weblogs.nos.nl/washington/2010/03/18/srebrenica-de-schuld-van-de-homos/

[Blue_Tires]

22. holy damn...

at least he has a job waiting for him as a Fox News analyst...

[DutchLiberal]

38. According to the Dutch embassy in Washington, Sheehan made the story up...

Sheehan said that the Dutch chief of staff at that time, had said that gays in the military were to blame. Sheehan says his name was Hankman Berman. The Dutch embassy says they don't know anybody by that name. (It's not a very Dutch-sounding name, is it?)

Embassador Renee Jones-Bos says:

“I couldn’t disagree more. I take pride in the fact that lesbians and gays have served openly and with distinction in the Dutch military forces for decades, including in leading operational positions, such as in Afghanistan at the moment. The military mission of Dutch UN soldiers at Srebrenica has been exhaustively studied and evaluated, nationally and internationally. There is nothing in these reports that suggests any relationship between gays serving in the military and the mass murder of Bosnian Muslims.”

http://weblogs.nos.nl/washington/2010/03/18/srebrenica-de-schuld-van-de-homos/

[Ignis]

81. Wow, so Sheehan DID provide a name after all.

That's pretty awful of him. I assume he's lying (and the Dutch response appears to confirm that), but it's still cowardly of him to "out" his source like that.

Just goes to show: Scratch a bigot and you'll find a coward.

[Tempest]

19. Sheehan's just pissed Dutch troops are leaving Afghanistan

This is going to backfire big time.

If I were the Dutch government, I'd pull the troops now and not wait until August.

[Toasterlad]

20. The US Military, Ladies and Gentlemen!

Always on the cutting edge of social progress!

[liberation]

21. Nice to know someone in the US Army is training furiously for the next Jackass Olympics

Good grief, what a fucking embarrassment to have a General in our Armed Forces who can utter that in public, and without any sort of "quality control" in his brain to cut off his mouth.

And these are the people in charge of our "strategy." No wonder is taking these idiots twice as long to capture a goat fucker with a beard in the middle of nowhere... as it took the greatest generation to help win a two front World War. Explains a lot really.

[atreides1]

43. Not Army, Marine

"U.S. Marine General John Sheehan"

[FarrenH]

45. "training furiously for the next Jackass Olympics"

:D

[msongs]

23. heterosxuals have murdered uncounted tens of billions of people nt

[No Elephants]

30. To that, General Shithead would probably reply, "Yes...and your point is?"

[jmowreader]

24. Let me get this straight: friction in the DUTCH Army over gays in it?

The Dutch Army is, without question, the most liberal army in the entire world. The soldiers in the Dutch Army, plus their retirees, are represented by the General Federation of Military Personnel, which is a registered member of the Dutch Federation of Trade Unions. You read that right: the Dutch Army has a UNION. This union has managed to cut out about 90 percent of the Army Bullshit most other armed forces have to put up with. The Dutch Army's union (which is run by retired officers, not left-wing peace activists like the freepers think a military union would have) actually went through every Army regulation with the goal of getting rid of the stuff that was just in there because that's the way it always was, and kept the things that make for an effective fighting force. Result? During the Cold War NATO had a tank crew competition. The Netherlands never competed until 1987, when the Commander in Chief, US Army Europe, invited the Dutch to send down a couple of tank companies. These guys showed up and no one took them seriously. BIG mistake. The Dutch Army can drive a fuckin' tank, man--they won by a stupid margin. It wasn't even close.

Apparently Ratko Mladic had nothing to do with this.

[AlbertCat]

68. Apparently Ratko Mladic had nothing to do with this.

Yeah.... but what did Hankman Berman have to do with it? Huh? Huh?

[ThW5]

85. The Dutch army doesn't have a Union, it shares four

The Dutch military has no less than four "general" military Unions, (for all of the military, not just for the army), and special Unions in addition to that for the military police and the navy officers (who started the unionization in 1883.

[Spazito]

25. Wow! A senior VP at Bechtel and a member of the Defense Policy Board...

(no conflict of interest there, no siree) spews disgusting lies because he is a POS homophobe, imo.

[No Elephants]

26. Dear General Shithead, this is NOT a debate about whether gays SHOULD be in the military.

Gays ARE in the military. There have ALWAYS been gays in the military. DADT already says it's OKAY for gays to be in the military--as long as they live a lie.

This debate is only about whether the gays already allowed into the military must live a lie.


You know of any massacres that were prevented because gay troops lied about being gay? If not,






Why aren't our brilliant Congress folk framing the questions properly and controlling shat like the shat this turd is spewing?

[Ozymanithrax]

27. If gays in the military comit war crimes, they should be tried and, if convincted...

punished by law.

The General is a idiot.

[Ian David]

28. I think it's because the enemy could hear their wooden shoes coming a mile away. n/t

[Jennicut]

29. I heard on CNN a few minutes ago that the Dutch are pissed at this idiot.

They say there were other factors that led to the massacre in the Bosnia conflict that Sheehan said was caused by having gays in the Dutch military.

[Tempest]

31. Was Sheehan legally required to have reported this?

Sheehan received intelligence (a representative of a foreign government passed on information to an American officer about a military operation), as an officer in the military wouldn't he have been required to report it?

All Levin has to do is ask to see the written record of the conversation. If nothing exists and it was required to be reported by law, then Sheehan is either a liar or committed a crime.

[verges]

49. I think he should already be in trouble for lying.

Apparently the Dutch Military sees things differently and there is no Hankman Berman.

[Joey Liberal]

32. Sheehan is a fool. nt

[TygrBright]

33. Someone please lead the General gently away, now.

His rubber ducky is waiting in his tubby, and there's a nice red hot-water bottle between his Batman sheets.

:eyes:

disgustedly,
Bright

[zenprole]

34. Check the Math

"Cannot believe that a man of that rank is stating such a thing"?

How do you think he got to that rank, Mr. van de Wetering?

[fascisthunter]

35. I Bet he Claims god speaks to him too

idiot whack job.

[DutchLiberal]

36. How does he dare say such a thing!

The Netherlands are proud of their gay man and women in uniform.

The reason why Srebrenica happened, is that the Dutch were heavily outnumbered by the Serbs and were poorly equipped. The French, via the UN, had promised to back them with air force, but they never came. It's a huge tragedy. It shouldn't be used to play political games.

[Mike K]

37. Did General Sheehan offer any specifics?

If not he had no business making such a declaration.

I was in the Corps in the 1950s when homosexuality was a criminal offense. I saw a staff sergeant (artillery MOS) who was comparatively well-liked, set up by the CID and an informant and arrested. I never found out what happened to him. There were a lot of different rumors. But I felt very sorry for the guy. As far as I knew he was a good Marine and nobody disliked him.

While there were no known gays in any outfit I was ever in I can recall a few guys who I later in life realized were probably gay but didn't dare come out. In the ultra-macho atmosphere of the 1950s Marine Corps (I don't know about today's Corps) I can't blame them. I don't know what the reaction would have been but it wouldn't have been good.

[vadawg]

40. no idea why, but the dutch army is pretty ineffectual, they are pretty much part timers

weirdest thing ever is to see the expectation that they should get the weekend off and be able to disagree with their officers. Their elite guys are good as elite soldiers should be but their line guys wouldnt scare anyone...

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vadawg]

42. no i wont shut the fuck up, as i stated the dutch army is more liberal than the other armys

i did state that their elite soldiers are good but can you deny that there is major differences between the dutch army and her counterparts in NATO, nothing you say can change the fact that soldiers from other nations dont get the dutch military attitude.

[DutchLiberal]

44. You insulted the Dutch army, which is fighting America's bullshit war for you...

You should thank them. If not for the Europeans, Americans would have to be drafted to finish this non-sensical war.

[vadawg]

46. No i insulted the Dutch attitude to the army, ive worked with a lot of good dutch soldiers

but even they would shake their heads at some of the crap they saw, and as the retired general said they pretty much stood back and watched genocide happen for whatever reason, still cant believe they have a union and abolished reveille, saluting etc...

[verges]

52. And the Dutch have

refuted what this retired General said. And the General's source apparently doesn't exist.

[vadawg]

53. and what i was talking about had nothing to do with what the general said

i dont agree with him, but i do have an opinion on the dutch army..

[DutchLiberal]

56. Yeah, opinions are like assholes: everybody's got one...

Doesn't mean a thing.

[DutchLiberal]

55. "They stood by watching genocide happen"? In which universe do you live?

They were outnumbered, poorly equipped and most important, the French army had promised to support air force to fight off the Serbs, but they didn't come. The Dutch army were powerless. If you want to blame people, blame Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic, and the French who didn't show up.

The Dutch army abolsihed saluting? That's just made-up nonsense.

Now please shut the fuck up.

[vadawg]

57. yeah they stood by and watched helplessly, as you said they were outnumbered, poorly equipped and

powerless, that is pretty much what i said. you need to go read up on the salute thing, heres an article where they talk about reinstating it for foreign actions. http://www.godutch.com/newspaper/index.php?id=884

[Blue_Tires]

51. Regardless of your expert military opinion,

you can admit the general's testimony about gays is irresponsibly hateful bullshit...

[vadawg]

54. hell yeah, i dont see what point hes making at all, im sorry if i didnt make that clear

[Dutchy]

66. Maybe...

...he's trying to prove the difference between US and Dutch army using himself as an example of US army outstanding intellect?

[vadawg]

69. rofl, i dont think thats working for him is it.

[Dutchy]

72. Well, in my opinion he has proven it well enough

and so have you. For some reason you seem to forget that these "pretty ineffectual, pretty much part timers" are exactly those guys that are in Afghanistan currently.
Any idea why NATO and the US are so keen on keeping 'm there? Any idea why this is if they, to use your words: "wouldn't scare anyone"? Could it be that in many cases in current areas of conflict it is better not to scare people because most of them are civilians on which you have to depend whenit comes to intelligence? Any idea how an Afghan citizen feels if his unlocked front door is being kicked in by US troops? Any idea how much time it costs to repair what US troops are wrecking by scaring people?
To get back on your opinion on the supposed attitude of the Dutch army. It appears you are an expert. Could you shed some light on your personal experience in combat or peace keeping forces with the Dutch army on which your opinion is solidly based?

[Dutchy]

73. Well, in my opinion he has proven it well enough

and so have you. For some reason you seem to forget that these "pretty ineffectual, pretty much part timers" are exactly those guys that are in Afghanistan currently.
Any idea why NATO and the US are so keen on keeping 'm there? Any idea why this is if they, to use your words: "wouldn't scare anyone"? Could it be that in many cases in current areas of conflict it is better not to scare people because most of them are civilians on which you have to depend whenit comes to intelligence? Any idea how an Afghan citizen feels if his unlocked front door is being kicked in by US troops? Any idea how much time it costs to repair what US troops are wrecking by scaring people?
To get back on your opinion on the supposed attitude of the Dutch army. It appears you are an expert. Could you shed some light on your personal experience in combat or peace keeping forces with the Dutch army on which your opinion is solidly based?

[LanternWaste]

84. Precisely how?

"but the dutch army is pretty ineffectual..."

Precisely how? Ineffectual at what? Is this analysis based on objective peer-reviewed AAR's, or simply anecdotal evidence?

[JI7]

47. lying asshole

[DesertDiamond]

50. Oh pfffffffffffft! If this one of the most ludicrous anti-gay arguments I've ever heard.

[kestrel91316]

58. Anyone who is so biased that they cannot accept a gay co-worker

and get along in the workplace when ORDERED TO DO SO needs to be fired.

I say: pack the military with gays and people who have no objection to serving with them, and shitcan the neanderthals and bible beaters.

[BreweryYardRat]

61. Sounds like a plan.

Neanderthals and bible beaters should not be getting military training in the first place -- they're too likely to turn around and use it in civilian life against the groups their tiny minds despise.

[Zoeisright]

59. That is the dumbest statement ever made.

What a fucking tool. WHY are people like this appointed to such high office?

[Hekate]

60. I s'pose he can provide photos of the Dutch Interior Decorating Squadron in a slap-fest...

... and basically just being way too distracted to actually kill people on command.

Otherwise -- without such proof -- General Sheehan should STFU. Sir.

What an *hole. :argh:

Hekate

[AlbertCat]

70. Dutch Interior Decorating Squadron in a slap-fest...

All I could find was this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldFWvHa4Svg

[HippieCowgirl]

62. WTF? Has he gone senile? (nt

[BreweryYardRat]

63. THIS was a GENERAL with a large-scale field command?

Oy vey, if this is representative of our officer corps, we're in trouble.

[bullwinkle428]

64. Wow...they're showing this asshole's testimony on Rachel Maddow now -

what a pathetic schmuck!

[pattmarty]

67. VOA, the number 1 propaganda organ on the fucking planet.

[Bluenorthwest]

71. So when certain civilian leaders whine that we must consult the

military on DADT, this is the sort of person they see as an expert to be heard. Says as much about those who seek his opinion as it does about the ignorant bigot himself.

[ProudDad]

74. "War is too important to be left up to the politicians"

Gen. Jack D Ripper...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/

[Libertas1776]

75. Wow

way to fucking utterly insult our NATO allies you fucking asshat. I can't believe this idiot said such nonsense. Disgraceful.

[Ken Burch]

76. For a second there, I thought the link was gonna say that gay Dutch troops LED the massacre

So Sheehan is saying that the Dutch troops couldn't stop the massacre because they weren't able to say the Dutch word for "f----t"?

:eyes:

(It's times like this I wish we had an "Oh Puhleeze!" smilie).

[Kurska]

77. Israel and Britain have two of the finest armies on earth.

They are also American allies, this idiot is telling our two closest allies in the world that their armies are substandard. He shouldn't be allowed to speak on capital hill in a official capacity of congress. He is even directly putting down the dutch, who have contributed more to the fight in Afghanistan then most NATO nations that have armies 10 times the size of theirs.

[LiberalFighter]

78. To bad his pension can't be revoked.

[marshall]

79. Is he trying to connect this to Muslim attitude toward gays?

Within the Dutch unit itself they seem to have worked through the change, and why wouldn't their commanders be taken as the authority on whether they are effective or not?

On the other hand, I know that women in our military have to behave by different standards when they are stationed in countries like Saudi Arabia.

[DutchLiberal]

80. "Dutch fury at US general's gay theory over Srebrenica"

Dutch officials have rejected a retired US general's claim that its forces failed at Srebrenica because of poor morale over openly gay soldiers.

A defence ministry spokesman dismissed as "complete nonsense" the remarks by John Sheehan, a former Nato commander.

"It is astonishing that a man of his stature can utter such complete nonsense," Dutch defence ministry spokesman Roger van de Wetering said in response.

"The Srebrenica massacre and the involvement of UN soldiers was extensively investigated by the Netherlands, international organisations and the United Nations.

"Never was there in any way concluded that the sexual orientation of soldiers played a role."

The Dutch ambassador to the US, Renee Jones-Bos, added in a statement on the embassy's website that she "couldn't disagree more" with the claims by the former general, who retired from the military in 1997.

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8575717.stm

[DutchLiberal]

82. Dutch military union: "That guy is just insane!"

Sheehan was supposedly talking about former chief of staff Henk van Breemen, when he mentioned "Hankman Berman". Van Breemen strongly denied ever saying such a thing.

Prime-minister Balkenende said Sheehan remarks were "disgraceful, unbelievable and not up to the mark". Defense minister Van Middelkoop said the remarks were "a disgrace and unworthy of a military man". Minister of Foreign Affairs Verhagen said the remarks made by Sheehan were "extraordinary strange". Jan Kleian of military union ACOM said: "That man is just insane. Maybe that sounds a little harsh, but there's just nothing else I can say, because it's total nonsense."

http://nos.nl/artikel/144797-homouitspraken-generaal-vs-militair-onwaardig.html

[belpejic]

83. When even Betrayus says it's time for DADT to end...

You know it's really time. End the ridiculousness, DC. Do something right for once. Patriotic, capable US citizens want to serve their nation, and we need them.

[Judi Lynn]

86. What a shame this deteriorated idiot has ever been given any resposibility at all,

he's not fit to serve if he's this stupid.