BREAKING: House Passes Historic Health Care Reform Bill (219-212)

[Hissyspit]

Source: MSNBC

Reconciliation Package/"Fixes" passes 220-211. Goes back to Senate. Senators need to keep agreement to accept fixes. No public option.

House Passes Historic Health Care Reform Bill

House sends health care bill to Obama's desk
President to sign reforms into law; "fixes" still require Senate action

BREAKING
msnbc.com staff and news service reports
updated less than 1 minute ago
WASHINGTON - After well over a year of negotiations, setbacks, and political wrangling, the House has approved President Barack Obama’s top domestic policy initiative, sending a bill to massively overhaul the nation’s health insurance system to his desk to be signed and enacted into law.

The climactic chapter in a century-long quest for near universal coverage concludes with the House's approval of a bill to extend coverage to 32 million Americans who lack it, ban insurers from denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions and cut deficits by an estimated $138 billion over a decade.

Republicans voted unanimously against the bill, which they say constitutes a government takeover of the health care system, financed by a trillion dollars in higher taxes and Medicare cuts combined.

UPDATED AT MSNBC:

WASHINGTON - Summoned to success by President Barack Obama, the Democratic-controlled Congress approved historic legislation Sunday night extending health care to tens of millions of uninsured Americans and cracking down on insurance company abuses, a climactic chapter in the century-long quest for near universal coverage.

Widely viewed as dead two months ago, the Senate-passed bill cleared the House on a 219-212 vote. Republicans were unanimous in opposition, joined by 34 dissident Democrats. Obama watched the vote in the White House's Roosevelt Room with Vice President Joe Biden and about 40 staff aides. When the long sought 216th vote came in — the magic number needed for passage — the room burst into applause and hugs. An exultant president exchanged a high-five with his chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel.

A second, smaller measure — making changes in the first — also passed later in the evening. It will go to the Senate, where Democratic leaders said they had the votes to pass it. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said the legislation awaiting the president's approval would extend coverage to 32 million Americans who lack it, ban insurers from denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions and cut deficits by an estimated $138 billion over a decade. If realized, the expansion of coverage would include 95 percent of all eligible individuals under age 65.

For the first time, most Americans would be required to purchase insurance, and face penalties if they refused. Much of the money in the bill would be devoted to subsidies to help families at incomes of up to $88,000 a year pay their premiums.

AP:

updated 3 minutes ago
AP Associated Press
WASHINGTON - Summoned to success by President Barack Obama, the Democratic-controlled Congress approved historic legislation Sunday night extending health care to tens of millions of uninsured Americans and cracking down on insurance company abuses, a climactic chapter in the century-long quest for near universal coverage.

Widely viewed as dead two months ago, the Senate-passed bill cleared the House on a 219-212 vote, with Republicans unanimous in opposition.

Congressional officials said they expected Obama to sign the bill as early as Tuesday.

A second measure — making changes in the first — was lined up for passage later in the evening. It would then go to the Senate, where Democratic leaders said they had the votes to pass it.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35961584/ns/politics-health_care_reform

---

"Many are now speculating that the Republican MTR this evening will be a motion that offers the anti-abortion amendment from Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.), the onetime leader of the key bloc of holdout votes. The Stupak amendment received support from 64 Democrats when the House first voted on it in November."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/03/what-time-is-the-vote-and-othe.html

Republicans tried to embarrass anti-abortion Democrats with reintroduction of Stupak Amendment. Motion to Recommit (MTR) failed, vote moved to the "fixes."

Stupak argued against Republican's motion strategy - said motion is not a "pro-life" motion, but a motion against health care reform. STUPAK: "For the unborn child, his mother will now be able to have pre-natal care... Vote NO on this motion to recommit."

Motion to recommit failed.

MSNBC reporting GOP House member yelled "baby-killer" at Stupak while Stupak was speaking.

[Haole Girl]

1. Yes!!!

:woohoo:

[boredonafriday]

30. Perfect pictures for the republicans right now..

and



:kick:

[Sultana]

77. Jajajjajajja

I love it

[classysassy]

114. Will the republican party and their fans

stop trying to destroy our country,everyone of those lying clowns should be kicked out of Washington.

[yeswecanandwedid]

223. omg, that's awesome. nt

[nashvilleman]

286. Say goodbye to America and jobs

This legislation is causing many small businesses to trim their budgets and consider major scale-backs in their labor force. I'm a job-loving democrat not a socialist. I think we've gone too far pushing businesses around. Hope I'm wrong, but I'm not.

[SteveM]

210. It ain't the best, but I'm 61 and will take what I can get. nt

[ixion]

2. Another Dark Day for the American Republic...

This is as depressing as when they passed the unPATRIOTic Act.

They were going to 'fix' that one later, too, and we see how that worked out.

What a cluster f**k.

[Cal Carpenter]

3. Yeah, it seems to me more like a sports contest around here

'Our side' won. Yippee. At best this bill is mediocre. At worst it's a giveaway to the insurance cos and the last chance for major national health care reform for at least 10 more years.

But the republicans are pissed so that makes it a win, I guess.

:(

[Oregone]

13. Another day of political football

[mbritton]

20. I agree

It took them this long to get this far. It IS NOT PERFECT, It indeed may be a clusterf*ck, but there is no place to go from here but up, right? BTW, someone on the house floor called stupakl a "baby killer"? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?????

[kverley]

43. stupak.

are you kidding me is right!!

and yay for us!

[YDogg]

246. Welcome to DU

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarryTrumanDem]

276. "this bill is mediocre".

Agreed. Let's not forget the public option was eliminated, as were most of the perqs Demos had argued for years ago (like having the govt.cover medication costs for low income people).

While it may be slightly superior to nothing at all (at least at this stage), the HCR bill was a corporate, centrist strategy aimed at making insurance companies and hospital contractors wealthier--. Really, the teabag--bots should be pleased--it's mostly a win-win for corporations and business.

[mike_c]

4. agreed-- this is awful news, an awful bill, cheered on by partisans...

...shooting themselves in the foot. Fix it? Yeah, right. Let's not forget to revisit that issue in a year or two.

[Robb]

7. Yeah, this is EXACTLY like the Patriot Act.

:eyes:
"Ladies and gentlemen, I've been to Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and I can say without hyperbole that this is a million times worse than all of them put together."

[Jester Messiah]

12. Would you care for some cheese to go with your whine? [nt]

[FarLeftFist]

22. Helping our citizens and small businesses is a dark day?

If your going to spout doom and gloom speculations and un-factual conspiracy theories save it for fox news.

[ixion]

51. OH PLEASE

It has nothing to do with that. How can you be so naive?

[FarLeftFist]

66. Sure, whatever you say.

[NYC Liberal]

37. A GREAT day for the American Republic!

[ixion]

50. Nope. Not even close.

And quite the opposite, in fact.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ixion]

74. Excuse me? I'm speaking my mind about a subject I feel passionately about

and just because that doesn't happen to jibe with your Kool-Aid fueled delusion, that doesn't make me a troll.

[The Hope Mobile]

75. +1 nt

[FarLeftFist]

93. I wasn't saying you were a troll, just that you were acting like one because...

You were expressing your passion by putting others passions down. Seems hypocritical. I don't see the passion in "Oh please, stop being so naive" or "Nope. Not even close". I've heard much more passionate arguments than that, usually one's that provide reasoning and logic. If you actually did have a passionate argument It might be a little more understandable. But your posts just came off as obnoxious and intruding, at least to me. And I don't drink kool-aid, or anything with hi fructose corn syrup in it.

[ixion]

97. My Problem with this piece of trash is simple:

It elevates insurance companies to the level of quasi federal entities with the power of the IRS to enforce, and mandates the purchase of a crappy pseudo product from a FOR PROFIT company as requisite terms for legal citizenship.

Despite whatever concessions may be in it, that mandate is a poison pill that no sugar coating will fix.

[FarLeftFist]

105. Yes, but there are literally millions of people dying to get their hands on that product....

To ensure security for their family that will now be able to. Most people WANT health insurance for themselves and their family and don't view it as this giant evil entity. I'm all for single-payer, but you have to admit this well help a lot of people. I don't view this as the end but the beginning. That's probably where we differ.

[ixion]

106. I will admit no such thing

because I do not believe it will.

Insurance is NOT health care. Your premise is flawed.

[feslen]

121. No clearer words have ever been typed out +10,000

wow,someone who actually thinks like me!

Insurance companies= scam what do they exactly "insure" your health, or their pockets?

the intention of this bill however is decent, at least their minds may actually be in the right place. (for once)

[FarLeftFist]

232. Yes, we all know insurance is not health care, but health care is not cheap.

I believe every corporation has the right to make money and make a profit but not if that profit is put ahead of human life. Hopefully this helps that situation. No one is saying this bill is perfect, not even the president, but if it helps our citizens have a better life than it is a step in the right direction. This bill does a lot to stop some of these companies more repulsive practices, and as far as them being viewed as giant evil entity's, which normally I do, I'm just saying you would be surprised the relief a parent feels knowing their child has health insurance, no matter what age they are. There are a lot of people that view having health insurance as a good thing for them and their families. And remember, just because YOU believe it will not help people doesn't make it true.

[ooglymoogly]

259. A healthy profit is a good thing...usurous profit by way of an oligopoly is not.

Capitalism can only work when it is carefully regulated so that monopolies can be prevented. The insurance mafia is not capitalism; It is blackmail on something so vital as life and death. And this government should know better. The health of our nation is just that, the health and well being of every man woman and child of our nation; And should not even come under the umbrella that the term capitalism fantasizes. Not so long ago we had the will to break up monopolies like ma Bell, that had a stranglehold on our vital signs. What is happening in this bill is not a good thing for this country, though there is a teaspoon of sugar to make the corporate medicine go down; As it sanctions a mafia stranglehold on the health of this nation. This nation is already on a ventilator because of this kind of sick government and by this insanity, will, not so far in the future, go into cardiac arrest as it did in 1929 from sheer greed over the health of this nation. Robber barons are just what that name implies; Thieves and should be behind bars.

[musical_soul]

253. Not only that.......

It's forcing people to buy health insurance. There's going to be a gap of people who don't qualify for the stimulus, but can't afford the insurance. People will be unfairly fined, but won't be able to pay the fine because it's ridiculously high. In theory, you can't be sent to jail, but you know the IRS won't take that lying down. Either they'll find a loophole to excuse sending people to jail or the wages of already struggling people will be garnished.

Mark my words. A year from now, some of you all will say how horribly this bill has affected your lives.

I don't understand why anybody is happy about this. Does a victory over the Republicans mean that much to people? This isn't even a Democratic Party like bill. It's a bill that hurts the working man. How can people support that?

And for the record, I don't know anybody in real life (Democrat, Republican, black, white, poor person, middle class, etc) who actually thinks mandated healthcare is a good idea. This is a disaster. What's worse, it's not even a bill that's Democratic Party like. It's a sham.

To me, this "victory" over the Republicans is about the same as the person who competes to get to the ground first after jumping out of a plane by taking off their parachute.

"I beat you!"

Plop!

That's this bill and the so called "victory" over Republicans.

[No Elephants]

154. Most people don't view health insurers as a giant evil entity? Which folk you been chatting up?

As far as helping a lot of people, maybe. But that could have been done without making health insurers even richer and more powerful.

Please see also, Reply # 136.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

167. Those are the people who really haven't needed to use it

I don't think most people want insurance I think they want health care.

[ixion]

171. exactly

spot on.

[joycean]

120. well, no

Insurance companies will have absolutely no power to enforce the individual mandate. The enforcement is very simple, and is purely monetary with no criminal penalties, and comes from the IRS only. If you don't have insurance, and are not required to file a tax return (because you don't make enough money), you don't have to pay. If you can file, you either pay a flat rate, or you pay based on a percentage of your income, whichever is lower. Guess what percent? 0.5
Not a typo, that's it. Point five percent. So if your taxable income is $20,000 (so you really made $30K), you pay...$100.

BUT, do I think the individual mandate is crap? Of course I do. It only makes sense if it comes with an inexpensive, but reasonable quality and publicly funded health care insurance option. Chances are high that the entire individual mandate language will be scrapped in the Senate, as it is extremely unpopular at every political level. Best case scenario, the Senate attaches a Medicaid buy-in to the individual mandate.

But even if they keep it as is, we are not all getting barcoded, or sent to work for the Ministry of Truth.

[No Elephants]

156. Only bc the Ministry of Truth operates at taxpayer expense without our services.

"So if your taxable income is $20,000 (so you really made $30K), you pay...$100. "

And taxpayers give health insurers, Big Health and Big PHRMA the rest, on your behalf.

A taxpayer bailout of industries that don't even need a bailout, no doubt as a reward for decades of bloodsucking.

Apologists for this bill are damned selective in what they choose to quote from it.

[joycean]

162. Please show me this 'bailout'

Where is it in the bill?

[ixion]

174. It's called a 'mandate'

and if you don't see how mandating the purchase of a private FOR PROFIT product equates to a bailout for the insurance industry, then I don't think anyone can help you.

[No Elephants]

184. In part, yes. Please see Reply 179.

[yeswecanandwedid]

200. Don't we have that now for car insurance? nt

[ixion]

202. No. That argument has been soundly refuted.

You can make a choice to own/drive a car. You cannot choose not to breathe. Well, you can, but only once.

[No Elephants]

204. Yep. See also Reply #203. There are probably other differences, too. Those are just off the top

of my head. I'm sure someone who knows more about it than I do could come up with more.

[yeswecanandwedid]

214. If you can't afford it though, you don't have to pay. So what's the big deal? nt

[ixion]

215. Choice. That's the big deal.

Being forced to purchase a private, FOR PROFIT, product as requisite terms for legal citizenship is foreign to me.

[yeswecanandwedid]

218. I would agree with you..

..that is a pretty big change, it's different than what we are used to. Is it a bad thing? To me, I don't think so. They seem to have the bases covered for those that can't afford it so they aren't left hanging. It may be different then what we are used to but I'm going to continue to be an optimist.

I would have preferred a single-payer, government system. But then we would have been arguing over other stuff on here I'm sure, or the bill would have been dead already.

[No Elephants]

228. Single payer is single payer, period. It is not a government health care systerm.

"But then we would have been arguing over other stuff on here I'm sure, or the bill would have been dead already."

I have no idea what that actually means, but, if we had gotten single payer, you would have seen the message board equivalent of danding in the streets on this board. But, what message boards say about a bill is hardly a way to assess it anyway.

[yeswecanandwedid]

237. You really think insurance companies would allow single payer to pass?

That's what I'm saying here. We all want single payer, but I think it would have been dead on arrival. I think the people that have the money and want more of it would have killed it. I feel this is a good step forward, but maybe not we all had hoped for. I hope that clarifies a little, sorry.

[No Elephants]

226. Turns out, trillions of dollars have to come from somewhere. They will come from consumers and

taxpayers and not only us, but our kids, grandkids and great grandkids, maybe beyond.

And that's unnecessary. All we needed was single payer or a good public option or better price controls.

But, the people we elected lied to us and sold us out.

That's the big deal.

[AlbertCat]

240. All we needed was single payer

Which of course would cost taxpayers nothing. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:


The bill is far from perfect, but it's some kind of start.

And mainly.... it's a defeat to Repug obstructionism. If this can be passed with all the effort put into killing it, who knows what else might be passed without the help of and in the frowning face of the GOP?

[No Elephants]

255. No, that is not what I said.

I gave three different options, not single payer alone.

And I never said single payer would cost nothing. But single payer would have cost a lot less than this giveaway.

As far as being a defeat to obstructionism (a) it wasn't such a defeat. The Republicans, via Collins and the DINOS, got better for the insurance companies than the insurers dared write into the bill themselves; and (b) a great bill would have been a real defeat. See also, Reply #41.

BTW, did you happen to see the post to which I was replying?

To all who must take my posts out of context and/or mischaracterize them before they respond with rolleyes, do you really think anyone is going to take anything like that seriously?

[Nordmadr]

247. I have a problem with the private company insurance mandate.

The government decides if you are poor enough to pay or not; on something they make you have.

How are the insurance rates set? How often will government 'too poor' levels be adjusted to accomodate for rate hikes?

4 years for most 'protections' to kick in as I recall? Hell, there could be a new majority that repeals this law before it ever puts out much benefit. Of course, they would be required to keep the 'mandate' in place though. I'm sure that would stay.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

269. Besides which, the car insurance companies are a lot better about paying up

If a tree falls on your car and smashes the windshield, they don't try to weasel out of paying by saying that living in a storm-prone area is a pre-existing condition.

[No Elephants]

203. Not the same thing at all. For one thing, car insurers have never enjoyed an exemption from

monopoly laws, as health insurers have had since, I believe, the 1940s. And car insurers have never had the privilege of rescinding your insurance after you have an accident, thereby increasing their profits. And, I believe, there is a state pool for those dropped by their car insurers, so it's something of a public option. In all, car insurers have not had the same opportunity to be bloodthirsty and build their profits/power as the big health insurers have had.

For another thing, you can get out from under your car insurance by not owning a car. The only way to get out from this mandate is to die or go abroad to live or become eligible for Medicare--at least for now. Who knows? If the insurers like this bill enough, we may privatize Medicare down the road.

[yeswecanandwedid]

216. Well, we're not getting a single payer right now, so the insurance companys...

...will still be around for quite some time. It still seems like a step in the right direction. I'm not saying it's perfect, but they are trying, trying to improve things for all Americans. That's what I voted for. If we waited for perfection, we would be waiting forever. My opinion of course.

[No Elephants]

229. Your reply totally ducks what my post said.

BTW, the only choice was not between single payer and rolling over for insurance companies, PHRMA and Big Health Care.

[No Elephants]

179. It's not quite as direct as the Wall Street bailout, but it's there.

First, health insureres were facing a loss of the Baby Boom generation to Medicare. (Baby Boom generation is widely considered to be those born in 1946, plus those born in the succeeeding 20 years.) That would have been a significant blow to the insurers, starting next year.

The mandate saves health insurers from feeling that hit by handing them young, typically healthy folk, healthier and more profitable than the Boomers. PLUS, insurers are permitting to triple premiums on those over 55, as well as charge those with pre-existing conditions a bundle.

Also, allowing price increases + a mandate serves to subsidize health insurers, PHRMA and big health care.


And, while some may be heavily subsidized at taxpayer expense, in paying for their premiums, that subsidy goes to health insurers, PHRMA and big health care to help beef up their profits.

Then, there was the swift killing of the drug re-importation bill.

IOW, "follow ALL the money." If you do, you will see massive transfer of wealth from individual American consumers and American taxpayers to Health insurers, PHRMA and big health care, much as Bush's Medicare Part D was a transfer to PHRMA, though the word "bailout" was never used.

If you're really interested, which, candidly, I tend to doubt, just google health care reform bill money to health care providers PHRMA health insurers. And then read some of the articles from Democratic leaning sources.

[No Elephants]

209. P.S. I think you already found it on your own. See Reply # 124.

[ixion]

170. well, yes, actually

They have no direct power, but your health insurance is now tied to your tax return. So it is undeniable that Insurance agencies and the IRS will now work -- in some fashion -- in tandem.

Nice try at spin, though.

[laughingliberal]

277. The percentage of income people will be fined is phased in til it hits a high of 2.5 %

in the reconciliation bill. 2.0% in the Senate bill.

[DailyGrind51]

158. There was a time when African-Americans were glad that employers who had closed

opportunities to them previously, were forced, by law, to hire and promote them. As a cancer survivor who has been rejected for individual coverage in the past, I feel similarly vindicated.

[No Elephants]

160. I am sorry you had cancer. I am glad you are a survivor. I am glad that this POS bill helps you.

I, too, have a serious pre-existing condition. At least three, in fact. None of them will do anything but get worse and require more care over time. Two are likely to be the cause of my death. It's only a question of which does it first.

You and I could have been helped without this POS, though.

Please see Reply ##s 152 154, 156 and 136.

[callous taoboy]

248. You hit the nail. This is similar to what happened when railroad monopoly was broken:

The railroad bosses actually gained more control.

[kenfrequed]

260. I am a bit critical of this bill as well.

The lack of a public option stands out most prominantly.


You, however don't seem to elaborate on why you think it is bad. Merely saying it is a dark day for the republic is silly. This is a discussion board. Either elaborate and discuss the particulars or expect to be given a rather cold shoulder.

[The Hope Mobile]

73. + 1 nt

[IsItJustMe]

89. +1

[avaistheone1]

110. A great day for greedy for profit health insurers who pay their CEOs

millions of dollars a year to deny health care to their customers. Americans will be putting more of our hard earned money in the insurance companys' pockets to further enrich and empower them.

In the meantime, how does that work for people who do not qualify for health insurance under this reform bill and still can not afford health insurance?

In any case, I am sure the health care stocks will be flying high tomorrow.

[Roland99]

55. All health reform needs now is some health reform.

[ixion]

57. exactly! I'm all for health 'care' reform

This isn't it, though. This is the Insurance Industry Profit Protection Act.

[DesertDiamond]

109. My thoughts exactly! The problem as much the for-profit health care as it is

the for-profit insurance companies. We need to revolutionize the health care industry so that it is truly working for our health, not just to maintain us in sickness for the rest of our lives.

[callous taoboy]

249. Social Security was tinkered with some 20 times since its inception. n/t

[laughingliberal]

278. Social Security began as a public program and remains such today

despite right wing attempts to turn it over to private, for profit entities. We were able to expand it over time but we did not have to make a U-turn before we started expanding it.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[icee]

84. Will be looked back on as the beginning of the end.

[Hekate]

98. "The beginning of the end"?! Of what, exactly? The world? Life as we know it? Christianity?

Capitalism? Democracy?

Help me out here.

Hekate

[icee]

180. The Party of and for the People.

See ya, Hekate. I've enjoyed your posts.

[go west young man]

181. According to the rest of the globe (America's in denial)....

capitalism officially failed in September 2008. Democracy ended in November 2000. Fascism with a colorful face proceeded thereafter and was in full swing by March 2003. What we have now is clusterfuckism.

[WeekendWarrior]

86. Yeah, damn, it's so dark and depressing

I don't know if I'll be able to get out of bed in the morning. :sarcasm:

Could we be anymore dramatic?

[joycean]

117. I don't know which bill you read...

Or if you even read it at all. Is it that you think this is going to throw us into a totalitarian state? Or are you upset that it doesn't include a public option? The latter I can understand, but the former is just ridiculous.

[No Elephants]

142. You read the entire Senate Bill and House Reconciliation Bill and followed all the cross references?

On your own time?

If I believed that, I'd be really impressed.

[pattmarty]

137. You are a brave soul going against the grain at DU. My opinion is..........

..........is was a SHORT TERM political victory for the Dems, not much more. The Republicans and their propaganda arm (Fox "news") are going to immediately tear into ALL the bad things in this POS. And you're right about fixing it. "Fixes, what fixes"?

[No Elephants]

144. As far as I can tell, DU is divided. Then again, I hang out mostly in LBN.

[xchrom]

5. Recommend

[SkyDaddy7]

6. Hell Yes!!

[Skinner]

8. Great news!

:thumbsup:

[Political Heretic]

128. .....for the insurance industry!

:thumbsup:

[No Elephants]

157. That was brave! Don't forget Big PHRMA and Big Health, though.

[Scurrilous]

9. Yes!

:thumbsup:

[alp227]

10. Stupak's stupidity makes the Backstreet Boys sound like the London Symphony Orchestra

Seriously, what the hell is it with this conservative misguided ranting about the right to the unborn but not a single word about the millions of currently uninsured Americans? This really confirms their obsession with fetuses. They need to be voted out of office.

But good thing the bill passed! GO HOYER TOO!

[Robb]

11. Oh no you di'nt?

[Grassy Knoll]

271. Napoleon " Boehner " parte........

Waterloo who ?

[mikesm]

14. Part of me feels REALLY HAPPY tonight...

Because we could actually muster enough backbone and beat the boner and the rest of the R's, and show some courage for a change. But I worry the reason I am so happy is just getting a win, and not the substance of what we actually won. The tea partiers, boner, limbaugh and other's attacks made we pretty happy about the victory - but I ask myself, would I really be this happy if none of these people had been so irrational in opposing it. On the substance alone, I can't say there is much in there that makes me happy. It could have been so much better.

But what worries me is that I might be enjoy the win for the sake of winning itself. And that's not what a progressive should be doing - it's the other side that believes in jingoism and motivating people emotionally as opposed to substance. We are smarter, and more reasoned on our logic than they are. But I worry that this fight has made more more into a cheerleader than anything else, and that is what's behind this sinking feeling behind my happiness.

I don't want to be a cheerleader for the corporatists, but is that what I have become?

[Hekate]

92. You're terribly concerned. Take a break, okay?

:eyes:

[No Elephants]

135. Welcome to DU, and kudos on questioning your motives.

[Doctor_J]

153. Unfortunately, the only two choices were to beat Boner & Big Media,

or have them beat the prez. I had a lot of uneasiness myself, but if Sanders, Grayson, and Krugman are OK with it, it's probably alright.

[No Elephants]

168. Sanders, Dean, et al. are NOT okay with it. In one breath, they say

they want it to pass, and, in the next breath, they say it needs a lot of improvement.

That is not the same as saying they are okay with it.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

136. Just because this is what passed, doesn't mean it was the best we could do.

We and future generations were sold out to health insurers, PHRMA and Big Health Care before the official process even started. That is clear. Failing to recognize that is what's naive.

At first, I thought it was just a failure, a massive cluster flock. However, I'm beginning to think that we've had nothing but kabuki ever since, to make us "understand" how nearly impossible it supposedly was to pass even this POS, and make it feel as though passage was some kind of victory for us, instead of for health insurers, PHRMA and Big Health Care.

The "drama" of the last couple of weeks on particular was so over the top. This Rep isn't going to vote for it. This one will. Oh, wait. He won't. Oh, wait, he will.

And the Senate bill just had to pass on Christmas Eve and the House reconciliation bill on a Sunday? December 23 or Monday morning just wouldn't have done it? Seriously?

But, whether by ineptitude or design, we did get a POS, after a very damaging 14 months, during which we saw the Tea Party form (which may be a mixed event -- time will tell). When we could have done the 50 Senators plus Biden deal from the jump and avoided those gun toting town halls last August.

But, whether it was ineptitude or design, please don't expect me to believe that whatever crap Washington flings at us is ipso facto, in hindsight, the best possible thing that could ever have been accomplished by legislators and a President acting competently and in good faith.

If that's what a majority of Americans believes, they deserve whatever comes their way. I am just deeply sorry they may carry me and my descendants along with their sorry "accept anything they fling at us gratefully and gleefully" asses.

[pattmarty]

138. You indeed are naive enough, and I can't wait to say "I told you so".

[No Elephants]

146. Too bad saying "I told you so" won't get back the past 14 months, in terms of

health care reform, the Tea Party, etc.

[pattmarty]

165. I blame Obama for that. He didn't get engaged until a couple of.............

..............days ago. Pretty speeches about bipartisanship don't count. If LBJ handled Medicare and especially the Civil Rights act like that, where do you think we would be today?

[No Elephants]

169. See, I think he was engaged. Please see Reply 136.

Also, look how fast the WH smacked down the drug re-importation bill.

Members of the the House Progressive Caucus were begging him for meetings, which he declined until the Senate bill was in place. One story I read even says he stood them up once.

There's more that I put into a post on another thread. I'll try to find it.

Okay. Here's the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4308373&mesg_id=4309103

I'm sure there was more than that, too. That was just off the top of my head.

[pattmarty]

183. If I can shrink your statements down to a sentence or two..........

.........is that this was Obama's plan all along, correct? If that is what you're saying, I totally agree with that. I think we're both saying the same thing more or less. I say he should have been engaged from Jan 21st pushing for what he "said he wanted". And, you are saying is this is exactly what he wanted from the beginning. As it shakes out now, I believe you are right. He did not want "real" reform and made deals with all the devils to get something that he could call "reform". If that is what you mean, I totally agree with it.

[No Elephants]

186. Yes, I am saying I believe Obama got the bill he wanted and was involved all along.

I never bought the idea that the poor widdle pwesident and head of the Democratic Party just washed his Democratic Congress and could not do a thing with it. Therefore, he could not possibly get what he really wanted.

[pattmarty]

193. Yes, we agree. He will now try to propagandize it into a political victory.

[No Elephants]

211. Of course. Eveyone will. They started that before the bill passed.

We usually agree, although I just read your profile and it doesn't fit me.

(I'm simply a classic Democrat and Buchanan makes me want to barf.)

I think our views are the same for the most part, anyway.

[pattmarty]

225. I'll try to explain my Buchanan thing. I really believe that he is what..............

..........I call a "true believer", in that he actually believes in the stuff he talks and writes about. I truly believe most so called conservatives actually don't believe all the bullshit. The one reason I "like" him somewhat is when he is not being partisan and he talks about politics and realities surrounding politics, he is usually right on. All bets are off when he puts his partisan hat on. I want to make one thing clear; I don't buy into his Immigration thing and his one book "Death of the West". I not too long ago read "Day of Reckoning" and there was a lot in that book that was insightful. I again want to clarify, I did not vote for him nor would I ever, but he is one "conservative" that I do respect. I don't want to go on too long with this because I will give some here ammo to fuck with me, but I also do not believe he is a racist as some here do.

[No Elephants]

235. As I said, we seem to disagree on very little, Buchanan is one of the things we disagree on, though.

[pattmarty]

256. No biggie. It is nice to have an intelligent discussion with someone.........

.............like yourself. See ya again.

[Name removed]

250. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

254. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

279. I agree. And Russ Feingold, who I generally trust, said this was the bill the President wanted all

along.

[Auggie]

16. Yeah, good news. But my premiums are still 60% more than a few months ago.

That was our increase when Mrs. Auggie turned 50. A whopping 60% increase from Anthem/Blue Cross.

[NoKoolAideForMeThx]

19. HELL

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Auggie]

24. ?

[Hissyspit]

26. Yeah, my reaction too.

Maybe an accidental response to you instead of the original post.

[No Elephants]

207. Foreman, is that you? Kelso?

[pattmarty]

139. Yes, it does NOTHING to control costs.

[No Elephants]

148. Wait till she turns 55 under this bill.

[happygoluckytoyou]

17. if this bill makes you sick---AT LEAST YOU CAN GET ATTENTION even if you have been sick b4

[The Hope Mobile]

78. In 4 years nt

[Hekate]

99. Some provisions kick in very quickly.

[DesertDiamond]

111. The ban on preexisting condition does kick in immediately for children.

Of course, that's pretty safe for the insurance companies since most children don't have preexisting conditions. Although, the insurance companies seem to be pretty good at making them up.

[pattmarty]

140. Not very many.

[SOS]

163. That's the key

Almost nothing until 2014.
Adults with pre-existing conditions will be in a "high-risk pool" (whatever that might be) until 2014.
A guy like me (self-employed w/out coverage) has to wait four years for even the hope of a subsidized plan.
Funny how the $182 billion AIG bail out was approved and delivered in a few days, but this takes four years.

[The Hope Mobile]

273. +1 nt

[No Elephants]

152. If you have enough money to pay the sky high premiums, sure. If not I'll pay the insurers a bundle

on your behalf, along with other taxpayers.

What's wrong with a government bailout of a highly profitable, heartless industry?

[FarLeftFist]

18. Great News. Now we can finally change the national dialogue.

Just imagine in a week or 2 the RW media may actually have to cover a different story.

[TankLV]

29. And that, sir, is THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE at hand here...

[The Hope Mobile]

79. Hopefully we'll be talking about the passing of a public option. nt

[AllyCat]

116. Support Alan Grayson's Public Option Act!!! Call your rep!

[pattmarty]

141. Don't hold your breath. They will be picking apart this POS with............

...........a fine tooth comb. This crap will be THE deal in the fall elections. Ya think "we" won, huh? Just wait.......

[MARALE]

21. Yess!!!!! NT

[mr1956]

23. The bill is not perfect,

But it's a start for something that needed to be done since Teddy Roosevelt was in office.

[avaistheone1]

115. That is a big comfort for the thousands who will continue to die despite this bill being passed.

It covers too few people.

Yet we have trillions of dollars for wars that few people want, and crumbs for the health care needs of our country.

[joycean]

124. This bill costs as much as Iraq and Afghanistan. Combined.

Well, it's 30 billion shy. But it sure as hell isn't 'crumbs'.

[No Elephants]

197. and you challenged my statement that this is a bailout for health insurers, PHRMA and Big Health?

:rofl:

[TankLV]

25. YES!!!

It's not perfect, by a long shot.

But it will help many.

And it will strengthen Obama and by result - the Democrats.

We can not do BETTER and MORE.

And we can FIX THIS BILL - AND ON TO SINGLE PAYER!!!

This is just a FIRST step.

It is just the BEGINNING.

WITHOUT THIS - there would be NOTHING.

I am one of Obama's most fervent critics here - and very disappointed at a lot of his actions to date.

BUT ON THIS ONE POINT - WE WIN AN IMPORTANT VICTORY!!!

[Auggie]

32. Yes... a beginning. A building block, if you will.

[mvd]

76. Right on

If this is all we get, I will be very disappointed. Not a fan of the bill and of how none of the really progressive provisions were fought for strongly (PO, medicare expansion, ending the anti-trust exemption, re-importation of prescription drugs), and loopholes were let in, but there's a lot more to consider. Overall, it was good that this passed.

[HillWilliam]

27. So this means we're FINALLY rid of Rush Limpballs?

Yeahright :rofl:

[verges]

60. He DID promise!!

[No Elephants]

192. He promised a strong public option, no mandates and no tax increases on those making under $250K yr

[verges]

219. You might want to follow the thread back. And see what I was actually responding to.

I was talkng about Rush Limbaugh moving to Costa Rica. Unless you're trying to tell me that Rush promised a strong public option etc.? I'm reasonably sure that he did not.

[No Elephants]

230. Your're correct. I did not mean Limbaugh. But

maybe Limbaugh doesn't keep all his promises, either.

[TomCADem]

28. Yes We Can!

[enki23]

31. good

.

[Cartoonist]

33. GOP defeated!

OK, so there are problems with this bill. Nothing is perfect. Check that, one thing is, the complete defeat of the GOP. Not a single repub voted for Clinton's economic package. That gave us a boom decade for which the Dems got no credit because the GOP was succesful in defeating health care. Now the GOP has nothing and Obama's stimulous will crush them in November. I was reading in one of the political magazines today about the republican optimism for later this year. Hah! I don't care how many flaws this bill has, it still spells doom for the GOP.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hekate]

102. Are you sure you landed in the right spot tonight? Take two aspirin and call back in the morning.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sellitman]

34. Anything that muster "0" Rethuglican support must be good.

At least in theory.

:rofl: :rofl:

[ccharles000]

35. k/r

[kestrel91316]

36. The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. This bill is that step.

And sportsfans, the day after President Obama signs it into law, we hit the ground running to come up with ways to improve it and a game plan for doing so.

[complain jane]

85. I'm with you.

[shellgame26]

91. "The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. This bill is that step".

YES! Thank You!

[Hekate]

104. I'll be lacing up my running shoes, kestrel!

:hi:

[No Elephants]

164. Because we just haven't done enough of that for the past 2 years?

I have emailed Obama, my two Senators and my Rep every week for the past two years and called at what seemed like critical times, along with signing every online petition I came across that got my agreement.

You're trying to tell me something is going to change if I start that again in a day or so?

One definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result.

[Hissyspit]

38. "MSNBC/NYT reporting GOP House member yelled 'baby-killer' at Stupak while Stupak was speaking."

[FarLeftFist]

46. For a group that is 'pro-life' they sure hate the living.

Not to get too graphic but my mother used to tell me horror stories of how she was a nurse before roe v wade and how women would come into the ER with wire-hangers hanging out of them and massively botched abortions, not to mention infections, huge loss of blood, bacterial infections, and still having to pass the fetus. Some even died. People will go to great lengths to not have a fetus inside them when they truly don't want it, we should always give the woman a choice to have her procedure done in a sterile, safe environment.

[No Elephants]

166. Nah. They just would love to stir up anti-abortion folk in Stupak's district to vote against him.

I don't for five minutes believe all the Republicon politicians give a damn about abortion or homosexuality.

It's all about keeping their seats and the $$ that come with them; and their chances of doing both improve if they are in the majority. Especially the $$.

[FarLeftFist]

234. True, these same 'pro-life' republicans have HC plans that cover abortions.

Hypocrites.

[ramapo]

39. I'm pretty happy

Much happier than if it had crashed and burned

[nvme]

40. HATE the law BUT IT PISSES THE REPUBS OFF

SO yYEAH!

[salguine]

41. Yeah, if Republican don't like eating dog shit, it must be delicious!

[No Elephants]

198. Great retort, but isn't this even worse for us than what Pubs have been yapping about?

[NecklyTyler]

131. The Republicans are in fact the Minority Party

It is about time they are show their place

[No Elephants]

199. So, when do you think that will happen?

As far as I can tell, this bill is worse for consumers and taxpayers than the reforms Republicans have been mouthing off about since Nixon.

[Dappleganger]

42. woot!

[dogfacedboy]

44. How many of those Republicans who voted against the bill

are going to face un-happy constituents back home? regardless of what the rightie propaganda machine says, most Americans want to go in the direction that this bill points us in.

[TheFarseer]

56. I haven't found an American yet that likes the bill

Democrats are going to be voted out in droves and then we can get back to tax cuts for the rich and more wars. And we will have done nothing about jobs, outsourcing, energy, stopping the war, the deficit, unfair trade agreements, killing the Patriot Act and on down the line. I am seriously disappointed that the only thing we've managed to do is pass an extremely dubious Healthcare bill. Your only source of news must be DU and John Stewart if you believe that Repubs will be facing an electoral firing squad in November. Believe me, it is quite the opposite.

[No Elephants]

201. Granted, it was not scientific, but my local TV station poll showed 77% against this bill this a.m.

It was a straightforward "approve or disapprove of this bill" question in a phone in poll.

Again, not scientific, but you can contrast that with about the same number approving the public option in a national poll a few weeks ago.

Oh, btw, I live in Massachusetts (now Senator Brown country).

[LatteLibertine]

45. It's a start

and thank you to the Democrats that voted for it.

To the Republicans, fuck you all. Now you can move on to championing the cause of Wall Street over the good of the overwhelming majority of the population. Have fun running on that and repealing HCR.

BTW, Rush, time to buy that plane ticket. See ya'. You won't be missed.

[pattmarty]

145. Uh, I think the Dems are the "champions" of Wall st.

[No Elephants]

195. Both Parties in D. C. are the champions of Wall Street and Big Business.

We're the ones lacking champions.

[pattmarty]

220. We agree again, Elephant. It is amazing some out there that are.........

..........still naive about the way America "works".

[Joey Liberal]

47. YES WE CAN!

[TrollBuster9090]

48. Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earthshattering KABOOM.

<IMG SRC=>

The universe didn't end?
No death panels?
We didn't wake up in communist gulags?
Nobody's pulling the plug on Grandma?
Healthcare isn't being rationed?
The IRS isn't auditing our bank accounts?
The value of the dollar didn't drop to zero?
The Chinese didn't call in all their IOUs?
The health insurance companies didn't all go bankrupt?
There isn't rioting in the streets?
No New World Order black helicopters are circling the Capitol?
Interpol isn't coming to confiscate our guns?

Gosh, I guess it's official. The GOP has cried WOLF once too often!
Jim DeMint was right, this is Waterloo alright. But he was wrong about who would be Napoleon and who would be The Duke of Wellington.

[galileoreloaded]

178. Still early on the west coast!!! ;)P

[No Elephants]

208. I see you're not a T.S. Eliot buff.

[TrollBuster9090]

252. A T.S. Eliot buff?

Oh, but I am. (Sort of.)

I mean, I believe that 'the result of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.' This is about health insurance, not tyranny, and the cable news channels are finally talking about what's IN the bill, rather than what the screechers are saying about it.


Did I miss something? :)

[jwirr]

49. It is done in the house - now let us hope that the Senate can be trusted.

Then on to our President.

[salguine]

83. Trusted to bury this piece of shit bill.

[Arkana]

52. We did it...we succeeded where so many Democratic Presidents

have failed.

Truman, JFK, Carter, Clinton...finally, we've done it.

Now, Sen. Reid...all eyes are on you. You can either pull it off and be a hero or you can fuck it up and be a goat.

[pattmarty]

147. Yep, really something to be proud of. Let's see, the Europeans.............

...........had REAL healthcare for how long is it now, 60 or 70 yrs? The Canadians since 1961. Yeah, we're right there with a FOR PROFIT healthcare system that will do fucking ZERO to contain costs. So, yeah we "did it". We kidded ourselves for another fucking generation, the Europeans, Japanese and a lot others in the industrialized world are laughing their asses off AGAIN at the stupid Americans.

[Arkana]

265. The Canadians and Europeans

also don't have teabaggers and an opposition party whose entire platform is "NO!", you sanctimonious assclown.

[pattmarty]

282. It's nice to know that BOTH your response to me and my response...........

..............to your remark will be deleted. Now, GO FUCK YOURSELF!

[No Elephants]

212. Too bad Nixon failed, too. His ideas were less industry friendly--and we could have blamed him

for whatever we didn't like.

[RoccoR5955]

53. A small step in the correct direction.

Yes, this is far from perfect legislation. However, with all the flack that the CONs have put up, it is a step in the correct direction, and it sure beats the alternative. If it helps ONE person with their health care, it is worth it. If it saves one life, it's most assuredly worth it.

With this, the Cons, cannot say that this was Obama's Waterloo. They will go down in history as the obstructionists, who tried to block this essential legislation, which can be the beginning. This should give the Dems the momentum, to possibly grow a pair, and stand up to the Cons.

[No Elephants]

205. If trillions to health insurers, PHRMA and Big Health is the right direction, this is a huge step.

They will all get even richer and more powerful, only now on tax dollars. Before, it was mostly just a combo of highly favorable legislation and consumer dollars.

Can't wait to see how much more powerful their lobbies get now.

[RoccoR5955]

283. WTF do you expect with such vehement opposition?

Do you expect Obama to wave a magic wand, and give the Left everything it wants? Give me a break, and get real. There HAD to be compromise, and you NEVER get all that you want when you compromise.
We got more from this law, than we would have gotten without it.

[Krashkopf]

54. A Clear Win for President Obama!

Is it a great bill . . . no, but its a start, and we can make it better.

Am I glad that Obama beat back the efforts by the Republicans to destroy his Presidency? HELL YES!

Congratuations to the President, Speaker Pelosi, and the Democratic members of the house!


!

[No Elephants]

213. If "we" can make it better, and "we" truly want that, how come" we" didn't bother?

IMO, all of Washington, D.C., from C Street to K Street to Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol Buidling, is going to have to change before this bill really gets better.

But we Democratic voters could not even get a lame public option or an end to the monopoly exemption into this bill. So, how are we going to change the entire system?

[mistertrickster]

58. It's a bad bill--but a good start. We can and must build on this. nt

[mvd]

71. Yes, have to have some foundation.

A historic night and hopefully the start of a lot better things to come. :thumbsup:

[DesertDiamond]

61. Sorry, I think this bill stinks.

[The Hope Mobile]

81. You're right. It does. nt

[salguine]

82. 'Cause it does. To high heaven.

[Democat]

62. Good job, Obama and Democrats.

It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. Letting the Republicans win would have been a huge setback for any dream of better health reform in the future.

[Autonomy]

63. Welcome to history, everyone.

So nice to finally be here. K&R.

[treestar]

64. Teddy wanted us all to have it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhYtMmw9OVk&feature=player_embedded

Even though he was rich and never had the problem, he still got it.

[SoapBox]

65. I'm LOVE'N me that Hopey/Changey Stuff!

[Imperialism Inc.]

87. K&R. I hope we use this momentum to push all the other change.

Next stop Climate Change.

[JBoy]

69. Congratulations, my American friends! It was a good night.

[DeSwiss]

70. K&R n/t

[FailureToCommunicate]

72. Thanks, Ted Kennedy. Rest -even more- in peace.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

88. Yippee! Now for the more perfect part.

[Eric J in MN]

90. Rep. Alan Grayson (D-FL) writes

I voted yes on today's health care reform bill. It's an historic first step. Historic.

But we're not done. The framework for a comprehensive health care system is in place. Now we must finish the job.

Our Medicare You Can Buy Into Act now has over 80 cosponsors in the House and over 40,000 citizen cosponsors at WeWantMedicare.com. It's a simple bill, to let you and me buy into Medicare. You want it, you buy it, you got it.

www.wewantmedicare.com

Let's do it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/21/848909/-A-Near-Death-Experience,-and-On-From-Here

[FailureToCommunicate]

189. Thanks for the link. Signed the letter. Go Grayson!

[Lifelong Protester]

194. I agree with you

and have signed the letter. I wanted momentum, and that we now have.

[No Elephants]

222. Awww, another online petition. Adorable. Do they ever work, though? Please see 164.

Sorry, but I am out of "hope" on this issue. I think people signed hundreds of thousands of petitions on this issue since 2005, when HR 676 was filed, but especially since Obama won the primary.

I love Grayson's outspokenness, but, if Congress ever intended to do this, or anything remotely like it, one of the 100 co-sponsors of HR 676 would have at least gotten the CBO to score it. Or put a meaningful public option in this bill. Or something.

They have given zero indication they are sincere about real reform. We've been played. Enough kabuki. Turns out, it's not really all that entertaining.

[Hekate]

94. Hi Hissyspit! Just for this night, let's be happy! Hope! Change! Moving on!

:party: :bounce: :toast: :party: :bounce: :toast: :party: :bounce: :toast:

For tonight we'll merry merry be/ tomorrow we'll be sober.

party: :bounce: :toast: :party: :bounce: :toast: :party: :bounce: :toast:

Hekate

[DollyM]

95. I guess it is a start but some things in it bother me . . .

I don't like the whole idea of fining people who don't buy health insurance. Everyone has different expenses and there really is no set idea of what is "afordable" health insurance. What is affordable for someone else might be too much for me to reasonably handle in cost. It worries me . . .

[Iowa]

108. DollyM...

I have not verified this with other sources, but take a look at this calculator. Punch in your numbers. I did, and I was pleasantly surprised:

http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

If anyone can confirm the accuracy of this calculator, I'd appreciate it.

[Lerkfish]

96. I suppose I"m glad we passed ... something, so I celebrate that at least

I'm not happy with many parts of this bill, and I am happy with some parts of this bill.
However, I think fixing it will be as hard fought and close a call as passing it, so I can't fully celebrate it yet.

I think it may be naive to think fixing it will be a cakewalk. My observations tell me that good legislation is hard fought, and constantly under attack. But bad legislation is like herpes... it never goes away.

[wisteria]

100. I am proud to be a Democrat tonight. n/t

[LaPera]

101. What a bunch of assholes.....

34 congressional assholes who have the nerve to call themselves Democrats, they voted against their own party"s health care bill just as the republicans & the insurance corporations threatened & demanded....these "Dem" assholes were all swept into office in 2008 - people wanted & voted for change.

Though by no means a great bill, no single payer nor even a public option in the bill....Still, it was the Dems consensus that they needed to pass this bill, to at the very least get tens of millions of people with zero insurance, some coverage....

We all had to swallowed shit, like not getting the public option, just as someone I greatly respect did, Dennis Kucinch. Finally in the end most Dems did stay united and voted for a much needed bill.

While every single lying greedy hateful republican stayed united - All fucking republicans voted with their disgusting corporate fascist party against the bill.

As did 34 other asshole who call themselves Democrats.

I wish somehow I could guarantee that each and every one of the 34 paid-off spineless assholes is out of a job oome November.

[martymar64]

187. We need to primary those conservadems that removed any Public Options

That means Senators that fucked us over (Nelson, Baucus, Lincoln, Landrieu etc) need to be primaried the fuck out of office. Time to get actual progressives in those seats, not corporate lapdogs. This bunch sold us out to Big Insurance/Big Pharma and they gotta go!

[Hekate]

103. This is a downright hilarious thread: so very many Deleteds and Ignores on this happy night--

Clearly not EVERYONE is happy with the outcome. :evilgrin:

Hekate

[Beartracks]

107. Wow, right there in the first sentence...

... the bill is referred to as an effort to "overhaul the nation’s health insurance system."

Hm.

------------------------

[laconicsax]

112. So after no Republicans voted for this, will Obama push even harder for bipartisanship...

on the rest of his agenda?

Or, perhaps will he finally give them the finger and move without them?

[Divine Discontent]

123. Did you see the president speak? He said it wasn't just a Democratic success, I thought, wow, they

deserve ZERO credit because they made such a huge deal about everything for over a year that they ended up stripping it of, among other things, the Public Option and GLBT health protections. They were total obstructionists! Sick arses...

[Dragonfli]

125. They deserve credit, all the Ideas are Republican in this bill, the deserve credit for

not adding a single vote yet getting a bill with nothing but their ideas in it to the detriment of any liberal ideas.

Next perhaps we will end homelessness by laying heavy fines at the feet of the freeloaders that refuse to buy houses just because they are poor!

This poor tax idea still has a lot more potential in other areas don't you think?

[pattmarty]

150. Excellent post.

[Divine Discontent]

270. ha! good point. yeah, they shove 200 amendments into it and don't even vote for it, knowing it

won't be a 'great' plan (Single Payer with protections for all citizens), but instead an okay start of a plan that guarantees you can get insured if you're already sick or your kids are, and insuring the poor who work, but it has flaws that the GOP put in!

[laconicsax]

275. Obama was against the exact same thing in the primaries, so who knows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoSnqofelsQ

If a mandate was the solution, we could try that to solve homelessness by mandating everybody buy a house.

Maybe he can let the Repubs write the bill and then get Pelosi and Reid to push it through congress. That's real bipartisanship!

[martymar64]

188. He'll keep trying to get them over. He'll give them everything they want.

And they'll still not give him a single vote.

Bipartisanship is a dirty word in my lexicon from here on out. Obama's biggest fault is that he believes in this bipartisanship nonsense. He needs to wake the fuck up.

[AllyCat]

113. While I hate this bill, I am excited that Rush will be leaving the country

[Wednesdays]

149. Don't hold your breath

Rush makes far too much money here, which he can't in any other country. I mean, how many ditto-heads can there be in Brazil or Norway?

:shrug:

[AllyCat]

196. You mean he's not a man of his word? Shocking!

[liberation]

118. alea jacta est

godspeed... hope positive developments come out of this, there is to hoping someday we have proper health care in this country.

[paulflorez]

119. For all the cynics, a very pertinent quote from Conan O'Brien

"All I ask of you, especially young people . . . is one thing. Please don't be cynical, I hate cynicism -- it's my least favorite quality and it doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen. I'm telling you, amazing things will happen."


I don't think anyone loves the Democrats or trusts them a hundred percent. The point of seeing this bill passed wasn't because we all worship the Democrats, it's because it contained many things we wanted to see done. We could be cynics and join the tea partiers with signs saying "kill the bill" or we could support the bill with the knowledge that this is only the beginning, that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans do not run this country, but rather we do.

This is NOT the end of hard work, it is only the beginning. We need to keep engaging each other, discussing and debating in a civil manner. We also need to keep the pressure on our Representatives. Even if they make a decision that we may not agree with, as long as they engage us and treat us like human beings, we have the option of giving them the benefit of a doubt. Ultimately though, we can choose to vote them out, so they are fairly powerless in the scope of things which makes the conspiracy theories that they're trying to usurp the power we grant to be pretty far-fetched. It's not as if, given enough political opposition, the bill could not be repealed. Of course, the bill contains many popular provisions, so it's doubtful it'll be repealed, but rather be amended in future bills.

Here's to working really hard, being kind and amazing things happening.

[No Elephants]

251. Isn't that what Conan said right after getting $45 million to leave quietly?

If the bill gave my friends and me $45 million, I wouldn't be cynical about it.

But seriously paul, if I thought my Representative or my Senators or the WH was engaging me, my attitude would be different.

Ditto if I thought we were really running the country. I often post the Pogo cartoon that says "We have met the enemy and he is us." because I think we, as a people, let too many things go by. However, our friends in Washington, D.C.--from C Street to K Street to the WH to the Capitol building--have made it harder and harder for the voice of the people to be heard or to matter anywhere near as much as corporate donations. However, I don't think the answer is to continue to be accepting. IMO, that will only get us more and more of things we don't like. I think we have to be less accepting.

But, I appreciate your sentiments and the lovely way that you put them.

[paulflorez]

274. Irony!

"If the bill gave my friends and me $45 million, I wouldn't be cynical about it."

Cynic: "a faultfinding captious critic; especially : one who believes that human conduct is motivated wholly by self-interest"

Out of everything I said, you take the part about being engaged by your Representatives and attempt to dismiss every other point I made as "lovely." What you fail to realize that being cynical does not help you achieve the goal of having more influence in the political process.

And O'Brien got $33 million ($7 million went to severance packages for his staff) because that's how much his contract was worth, and it was CHEAPER to let Coco go than to let Leno go; the latter having a contract worth $150 million. Are you unable to see the potential for bitterness even with $33 million being placed in your already millionaire hands? It's like being told you'll get single payer and then you don't even see a public option! In fact, the $150 million man you were fighting with gets to re-take your spot!

For goodness sake DON'T be bitter! Turn whatever that is into energy towards engaging your neighbors and representatives. If you want to build up a progressive candidate, green party, whatever, then do it, but don't waste time and energy trying to rip down people who've "disappointed" you; that accomplishes NOTHING.

[Turbineguy]

122. Sigh.... the death of the free market....

"Hi! I'm having a heart attack and so I'm calling around to see which hospital will give me the best bang for the b....uck...uck..."

"Sir? Sir? Are you still there?"

[John Kerry VonErich]

126. My only fear now .....

is I hope we don't get sold up the river just for votes.

[stuart68]

127. Keep kidding yourselves

This is a failure. It will not get better because they threw everything they had at a crappy bill - there is nothing left to get (think Patriot Act).

This reflects a failure of Obama's leadership, adn a desire to be historic as opposed to doing the right thing. It will be a drag on small business and a drain on the economy. It will help all those going bankrupt (as Nancy Pelosi said) in the same way the mortgage assistance worked - not at all. It will help the common man the same way the bank bailouts did - not at all. It will help big business ! Watch the stock market (for insurance companies) today for an indication.

[pattmarty]

151. Yep.

[stuart68]

191. It will result in a good house cleaning

come November. At this point, I am all for throwing them all out.

[AnOhioan]

129. So...we pass a crap bill and out come the party hats??

Thanks...but I will abstain from celebrating.

[quaker bill]

130. The tide turns

I do love a clear victory in the face of ardent opposition with colorful statements of doom and gloom. Much like Clinton's budget and minimum wage increases, none of the predicted bad things happened and in the long haul Republicans lost all credibility on the subject.

Watch the numbers turn as we head for November.

[bos1]

132. BUSH INVADED IRAQ. OBAMA PASSED HEALTH REFORM.

Any questions about change?

[FailureToCommunicate]

185. +1 Preemptive war VS preemptive health coverage.

[bos1]

224. LOL. what's that, death panels?

[FailureToCommunicate]

241. No, it means I agreed with your comment and rephrased it. One of the better provisions

of the new bill is free PREventative care. "Pre" as in before there is a problem.

[bos1]

245. sorry. I am too used to negative comments.

Or else I would have realized that it's a pretty clever phrase -- preemptive healthcare instead of preemptive war. Thanks

[RBInMaine]

133. CHUH-CHING ! Hey RePUKES, GO PISS UP A ROPE ! YOU'RE DONE !

[JNelson6563]

134. Bravo!

:toast:

[olegramps]

155. Some on this board would have applauded if the Republicans had succeeded in killing the bill.

This bill sets the stage for the eventual transition to universal health care. Take out some time and read about how limited Social Security was when first enacted and how it has expanded and been improved over a number of years. Is this bill perfect? Hell no! It is far from being what so many want and what is needed.

What it did was full expose that our health care system is a damn disgrace and that the heartless Republican bastards don't give a damn about the plight of their fellow citizens. The problem can't be ignored any longer and the shortcomings of this bill will only serve to magnify the necessity of further improvements.

Despite it shortcomings this has been a tremendous achievement in view of the massive opposition that was launched by the health care rip-off insurance companies and their Republican henchmen. The only negative thing that I can say would be that it is disgusting that 34 Democratic Representatives voted against its passage. I would encourage and financial support their replacement by REAL Democrats in the upcoming election. This is of such historic importance that they should be regarded as nothing more than corporate bootlickers whose only concern is getting reelected so they can continue feeding at the public trough.

[duhneece]

177. I see it as a step in the right direction

"...Despite it shortcomings this has been a tremendous achievement in view of the massive opposition that was launched by the health care rip-off insurance companies and their Republican henchmen..."
Amen!

I remember reading how difficult it was for Ben Franklin to support the US, since it meant including a slave state, Virginia, which was the biggest, wealthiest state of all, but without which there would be no UNITED states.

[freddie mertz]

161. I suppose this might be better than the alternative, but was anyone else troubled...

By he last gasp of anti-choice maneuvering we saw in the last hours on Sunday.

I have heard a few pundits declare that the Democrats are now a "pro-life party."

That is not exactly something I am comfortable with.

[llmart]

172. Terrific news!!!!

This is a huge victory for President Obama. And to all you naysayers on DU, I have a feeling that you'd never be satisfied unless you got everything you wanted and here's a word of wisdom for you: life is about compromise. You can't always get everything your way. That's life. Didn't your parents teach you that?

[martymar64]

190. Well they just compromised themselves out of my vote come November

How do you like that?

All I wanted was some sort of Public Option but Obama cut his deal with Big Insurance and sold us out early while pretending to be in favor of a Public Option. He lied right into the face of the American People. He also campaigned on no individual mandate but he sold us out on that too.

The Democratic Party is useless if this the best that they can do.

[No Elephants]

217. Bullshit on your characterization of DUers who are against this bill.

What we wanted was single payer.

I would have settled for a strong public option.

Failing that, I would have settle for reasonable price controls (taking into account the increases already made) and an end to the monopoly exemption.

Try discussing the issues without having to sling crap at your fellow Democrats.

[pleah]

173. 34 Democrats must lose their seats come November. n/t

[JonLP24]

272. As crappy as this bill is

What ever each one voted doesn't matter to me. I'd still vote my Rep. whether he/she voted yes or no. I'm sure the reasons each one of those voted 'no' for are the same reasons I don't like the bill.

Edit/Most if not all of Dems that voted 'no' are blue dogs so I'd likely vote against them in a primary whether they voted 'yes' or 'no' so carry on.

[pleah]

280. Mine, Taylor, voted no and is a blue dog. His reason,

according to an email back to me, was about the abortion issue and he wanted the Stupak amendment in it. Taylor is an idiot regardless of this vote.

[JonLP24]

281. My edit reflects that

I posted, then looked at the 'Nay' voters. Almost all of the 'no' voters are blue dogs including Taylor. So they likely voted against it for the 'wrong' reasons.

Either way this isn't a make or break issue for me. I don't like some things about this bill, other things I like. I can understand the Democrats who didn't like it but voted for it because it seems like this is the best we can do at this time. When it comes to voting booth, I will take this vote into consideration but how they voted on other issues is what I'll be looking at mostly.

[gorfle]

176. It's just another welfare program that most will pay for and/or not benefit from.

As I predicted, this bill appears to me to be nothing but a giant welfare program that most Americans will pay into and/or reap no benefit from.

If it actually does provide insurance for everyone, that's great.

What does it do for the vast majority of the rest of us?

From what I can tell so far from CNN, mostly what it's going to do for the rest of us is:

1) make sure nobody ever gets an insurance plan worth more than about $8500 per individual or $23,000 per family or so as part of their compensation package.
2) make sure everyone has to buy insurance or pay a fine (insurance companies LOVE this part)
3) make everyone who makes more than $250,000 a year pay higher taxes

So what did this huge, landmark, year-in-the-making "health care reform" bill do for ME? In what way is health care reformed or made more cost-effective for ME? As far as I can tell, about the only good news in this for your average person is that you will, so they say, no longer be penalized for pre-existing conditions.

The biggest thing I take away from this legislation so far is that it basically helps the poor and the insurance industry. I believe this is going to be a political DISASTER for the Democrats in the next election. If the Assault Weapons Bill, which only affected firearm owners, was a motivating factor in 1994, you ain't seen nothing yet.

What is needed is a single-payer system where EVERYONE benefits from the system, whether they pay into it or not. We don't need a separate fire station for poor people, we need one fire station that helps anyone in need. We don't need a separate police force for poor people, we need a single police force that helps everyone in need. We don't need separate schools for poor people, we need one school system that educates everyone.

Why do they make this so complicated? The only obvious answer is there is too much money at stake to be lost by the insurance industry, and they have made sure it came out in their favor. The system has been set up so that EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO CAN put money into their pockets will be made to do so, while the government will make those same people also pay for the the health insurance for those too poor to squeeze for any insurance company money.

[yeswecanandwedid]

227. I would like to see single payer as well...

..but it isn't in this bill. Maybe later, they had to start somewhere. At least that's how I look at it.

[gorfle]

238. I dont' believe there will be a "later".

I believe there is going to be an enormous backlash come election time.

If health care had significantly improved things for most Americans, then the election would go easily in our favor. But since this reform has done little for most Americans, most Americans will not be eager to support it, and there are many, many who are and were already adamantly against it.

[No Elephants]

233. I have much less of a problem with welfare. At least private companies don't profit from welfare

at taxpayer expense.

Other than that, I agree with most of what you say. This was about taking care health insurers, PHRMA and Big Health Care, especially health insurers.

[NJmaverick]

182. This was great news to wake up to this morning

:woohoo:

[1American]

206. finally!

.........BUH-BYE RUSH ! HAVE A MEDIOCRE LIFE.........WON'T BE SEEIN' YA!

[RedState_progressive]

221. I don't see where this bill helps us (wife and I) at all

It allows seniors who have been paying for other people's health care all their lives to NOW get charged triple ??
No real enforcement that I can tell.
no preexisting condition protection until 2014 - maybe they plan for us seniors to be killed off by then.

Another sellout to the corporations. Damn I wish we'd moved to Canada before age 50.

[No Elephants]

239. Just pray they don't privatize Medicare before you turn 65. With all the extra

money health insurers, PHRMA and Big Health are going to get, they will be more powerful than ever. Privatizing Medicare might well get bi-partisan support, too.

You'd think we'd be able drawing a line in the sand, rather than cheering the corporate giveaway 'cause Democrats were the ones who did it.

Oh, well.

[Gwoppi]

244. Riddle me this

Nobody plans for seniors to be killed off. I have friends who are 101 and 87 years old and they're spryer than I am and the 87 year old can walk faster than I down a Manhattan street. Who guarantees that age means death? You could live to be 114 and I at age 40 could die crossing a street tonight. What this bill does is make it easier for an uninsured person or very ill person regardless of age to obtain the medical care they need without first needing to be a) unusually wealthy, b) the possessor of a nest egg (which my generation has been unable to create because of YOU GUYS' overspending and greed for countless decades ahead of us; think on that awhile), c) a lottery winner, d) game show winner, or d) trust fund recipient. It's sad to me so many seniors are as self-concerned and frightened as you seem to be. Don't you care about the poor Americans younger than you? I am employed and my taxes pay for your Medicaid and Medicare and your comfortable retirement. I don't mind that.

You shouldn't mind, as the generation taught to buy war bonds and collect rations to support your country, working and sharing together to help all Americans live. Yet you do.

Why is that?

[No Elephants]

261. As to the poster's death comment, I think he was being facetious.

As to your assumption that your generation will be shafted without anyone caring, please see Reply 226. which I posted long before I read your post. I am very concerned about passing on the cost of this bill. Maybe the bailout was necessary. Maybe the stimulus bill was necessary. Maybe the next one will be as well. And, while I mind passing the cost of all those bills down to others, I especially mind passing down the cost of the so called health care reform bill because a giveway to health insurers, PHRMA and Big Health Care was not necessary. There were lots of alternatives.

Welcome to DU.

[The Wielding Truth]

266. Won't Canada accept people over 50?

[myrna minx]

231. K&R n/t

[No Elephants]

236. I had hoped that passage of the would at least mean the kabuki would be over, but it

looks as though I won't be getting that wish any time soon, either.

Could be worse. In a brutal dictatorship, I might have to applaud the kabuki.

[Gwoppi]

242. Waterluau, anyone?

I've delurked after 2 steady years of reading DU just to say this: Congratulations to the Democrats who stood up for this bill, all you guys who made phone calls, sent emails and supported it, and everyone who helped at least open the door to the possibility that someday soon there will be free healthcare for all. I'm confused by the all-or-none position of some folks I've read, but I respect their opinion even while I disagree with it. Nothing is perfect - even Social Security (which imho, if you are facing a dire financial emergency, ought to let you access some of what you've worked so hard to earn without requiring you to retire first). Let not perfection become the enemy of the good that can be worked on, brothers and sisters. That is all.

And finally, folks, it's time for us Democrats to demonstrate to the Republicans how a proper HCR Bill is celebrated. I hereby submit for your approval:

... Waterluau!

I've got the pineapple, pigs and taro! Anyone wanna join me? :toast:

[renate]

258. Glad to see you delurking!

I guess "welcome to DU" doesn't really apply... two years is a long time to read and not post! Your restraint is impressive but I'm glad you finally dropped the cloak of invisibility.

:hi:

[Gwoppi]

264. Heh

Wasn't so much restraint as much as Fear of Getting Torn a New One during some of the more, ah, shall we say "heated"... exchanges round these here parts from time to time :D

Thanks for the welcome and here... have a lei and grab a drink! Hawaiian Midori melonballs on the house! We (and our "yea" House Dems) earned it!

[fascisthunter]

243. Well, no turning back now

hopefully the inevitable outcome is something more socialized. With premiums sky-rocketing, I see no way for this current private insurance controlled healthcare system to last... all will come to a point where this will not be enough... if people think this issue is going away, think again.

[bc3000]

257. So, how much longer to we have to pretend this was anything other than a political victory?

The honeymoon has already worn off for me.

Can we now call this bill what it is, a huge handout to the insurance industry? Or do we have to keep pretending that the democrats passed something that wouldn't have been a republican bill 20 years ago?

[Owl]

262. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zorra]

263. Awesome. Now to tweak it and get it right. n/t

[lifeliberty345]

267. Yay!

Republicans, and Republican Double Agents get out of the way!

:Cheer:

[pundaint]

268. It's not what we campaigned on, but it's all you get with Democratic bait and switch. Historic?

If you are going to call this reform, than it's time to start humming, because words have lost their meaning.

[cstanleytech]

284. Ya know, I think we all are thanking the wrong people.

This isnt something Obama deserves credit for, nor most of the democrats.
In fact the ones we should be thanking are the republicans, we should do it repeatedly and often, after all it was their own plan that they pushed years ago as a counter to clintons proposal that required people as well as many of the other ideas.
So the next time ya hear someone (like say a wingnut) try to give the credit to the democrats lets make sure they know who really deservers most of the credit.......the republicans.

/evil grin

[rhett o rick]

285. Has anyone posted the names of the 34 Democrats that voted with the repukes? nm