Document: Toyota warned dealers of throttle surging in 2002 (NHTSA hid it)

[underpants]

Source: CNN

The technical service bulletin went to every U.S. Toyota dealership in late August 2002 after some customers reported their vehicles were speeding up unexpectedly.

But Clarence Ditlow, the head of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety, said the 2002 document doesn't talk about mechanical issues.

"If you look at this document, it says electronics," Ditlow said. "It says the fix is reprogrammed in the computer. It doesn't say anything about floor mats."

"The government is really hiding this information from the consumer," Ditlow told CNN. "They're in a conspiracy with the auto industry to keep these out of the public's sight."

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/22/toyota.throttle.warning/

---

NHTSA did not respond to requests for comment. And Toyota did not respond to questions about the bulletin, but it issued a statement to CNN attacking Howard and his fellow lawyers.

[Joanne98]

1. WHOA!

[underpants]

2. TSB is here

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/22/toyota.tsb.pdf

[dipsydoodle]

3. Link specifies Camrys

Different reasons in different models I'd say.

[underpants]

4. Not arguing but aren't the same parts (accelerators) used in several models?

Wouldn't due diligence and just basic common sense call for a review of all such parts and functions?

Just asking

[dipsydoodle]

5. No idea

but what is a mystery is you, in the USA, suffering from ailments not suffered in Europe. Ours are made in Japan - where are your ones made ?

BTW - my Jeep Wrangler Unlimited does it occasionally too but only at very slow speed and nothing to really alarm me although it might not be too exciting if I was parking the car between two others.

[ashling]

6. If I was Toyota,

that's what I'd say , too.

[madokie]

7. Went to the big city yesterday in my f150

drove most of the way using the cruise control, wanta change your speed a few mph just tap the button how many miles per hour you want to speed up or slow down, one tap is one mph. simple and works like a charm on both our Fords. Not once have either of them took off on their own either in the 11 years we've owned them. Buy Ford and be happy is what I say. I should be on fords payroll cause I've sold a countless number of people over the years on Ford products and not one of them that I know of are dissatisfied with their decision to go ford.

TOYota will not survive this. If I was a bettin man I take bets on that too.

[jody]

8. Ford was the best buy a century ago and still is. n/t

[still_one]

9. Toyota will not survive this? If Ford could survive the Pinto exploding gas tanks, Toyota will

survive this

Also, in case you didn't know, Toyota helped Ford with their Escape hybrid

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_toyota_kickstarted_ford/

Ford was also a real gem with Bob Kearns and their stealing of his invention, the intermittent windshield wiper

[xultar]

10. True and the police officers burning in the interceptor.

[still_one]

11. I was just pointing out that in general most corporations unless regulated will not always

be ethical

[xultar]

13. I was agreeing wiith u right? Did I do it wrong?

[still_one]

31. No, not at all /nt

[xultar]

34. Cool-io still_one. hang in there!

[still_one]

37. Thanks, you to

[FarCenter]

20. Ah, but who regulates the regulators?

[madokie]

26. Just a little help in the hybrid startup

pinto's gas tanks weren't met with denials by ford is what made the difference. And those denials ford didn't do didn't last going on 7 or 8 years like now with toyota. TOYota will have to change their name at this point if they ever want to have a chance at regaining even part of their market share.

No one likes a liar and toyota has been shown to be one and are they're still in denial even after all the evidence toward it being a software problem.

[still_one]

32. They sacrificed safety for the sake of cost. There were real ethical issues involved at the time

and while not identical to the issues Toyota is having, they were aware of the gas tank problems, and still went ahead and produced the cars

[Romulox]

35. Your information about the connection between the Ford/Toyota hybrids isn't correct.

Ford developed its hybrid technology independently. It licensed some technologies from Toyota after Toyota was first to secure a patent. :hi:

[Heywood J]

42. Ford also being the company that put a price tag on human life.

Not that I'm a Toyota fan, but Ford has some pretty bad things to answer for.

[Dappleganger]

18. I love Ford...

we've owned several of them (last one we sold was our big econoline van because it was a guzzler). Always dependable, easy to work on.

[madokie]

29. One of the things I like about my fords is they are the same day in and day out

my last chevy truck would wake up on a different side of the bed, so to speak, every damn morning. If I'd get out and drive the piss out of it the night before it'd sound and run like shit the next morning where as I can take this f150 and kick the spurs in and make it hump up and holler and by georgie it'll wake tomorrow ready to go do it again. Running even better actually.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

12. about 10 years ago, one of the fancier Buicks had a minor

programming gltich. If you were driving in very low temps, with low pressure, the engine would surge.

Where else but a mountain pass, curving up and down with cliffs at each curve, do you find low temps and low pressure?

One of the US carrier - based fighters apparently had another glitch. If you flew across the equator while on auto pilot, the latest test version of their inertial navigation system would flip your jet upside down. The first fix was was to turn of the auto when crossing the equator, they later found something simple, like a period in the code, instead of a colon, or something as miniscule.

The more complex you make something, the better it works. Most of the time.

Until it fails, then the failures can be completely spectacular, far worse than you ever expected.

We already automate much programming, because
a) we can
b) it is easier and cheaper
c) the systems were tested and seem to work.

But we don't really know what goes into each and every line of code, or how each aspect of the latest generation of chips interact with it. We are reaching the point where most of that stuff will simply be magic to the normal Joe on the street.

Worse yet, the idea of "Synergy" cannot be discounted. When you start combining two or more tested, robust complex parts (say, programming) each one works fine individually, but when you add, 3, 4, even 20 of them together, it becomes virtually impossible to determine each and every interaction, and the chances of catastrophic failure rise from negligible, to something substantial and likely.

[jody]

14. All good points and those who think testing software, population size 1, is comparable to hardware,

population n >1 and typical large, ignore that basic difference.

As you point out the number of combinations and permutations of interactions in software code are unbelievably large and the cost to do an exhaustive test of each is prohibitive.

One aid is good design using CASE tools but too often that is not used with sufficient rigor to minimize bugs.

[Kingofalldems]

15. Looks like we need a Special Prosecutor

[Hepburn]

16. Like the Pinto gas filler memo...

...smoking gun.

JMHO

[Dappleganger]

17. And people on THIS BOARD defended NHTSA when I said they are NOT biased!

I told you so! I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceburg!

[HamstersFromHell]

19. The lawyers might be inserting their feet into their mouths here...

In all my 35+ years of being a mechanic, "surging" is NOT "uncontrolled acceleration".

Usually surging is a slight rise and fall in engine speed, and most likely caused by one of two things: a too-lean fuel mapping for the conditions or too much ignition timing. (Both often used to improve fuel economy.)

Even if it was a "fly by wire" throttle miscalibration, it's merely in the "granularity" of the calibration, and still should not cause any wide open operation.

Likewise, the TSB says it only occurs in lockup mode (as in transmission) so any wide open throttle would cause the convertor to unlock and the entire scenario that the TSB mentions beomes instantly invalid. (The computer switches to a different mapping.)

Not to mention I'm skeptical of anything a lawyer says in conjunction with wanting to make these into a class action suit. Lawyers get all the money, and the affected car owners get a "$5 off your next oil change" coupon as a way of settlement.

[Romulox]

24. They'll have an opportunity to explain that mess to a jury--right after a lengthy discovery process.

:hi:

[Cowpunk]

44. I'll second that. Surging is a totally different issue.

The TSB describes a "surging during light throttle input". That means when you step on the throttle pedal, the engine speed fluctuates up and down, producing a kind of jerky feeling.

Some GM vehicles had a problem recently of surging with the cruise control on. Also fixed with a control module software update, if I recall correctly.

[DesertDiamond]

21. After 25 years of failing to match Toyota's quality, US car industry finally resorts to sabotage.

Having spent the last 20-odd years driving used cars and doing heavy duty research every time, Toyotas have always been the #1 car to buy used because they are the most reliable, long lasting and low maintenance. To the point that it's always been hard to get my hands on a used Toyota because they are always snapped up the moment they are advertised. Or, now in this economy, nobody is even willing to sell their Toyotas. Go look on any car selling web site and you'll see that there are almost no listing, with lots for every other major make of car.

It amazes me that US car makers have had 25 years to make a car that is as economical, longlasting and dependable, and somehow they haven't done it. Now, they are simply trying to destroy their #1 competition by character assassination. Now, that's sinking really low.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

23. Tinfoil time: there's a scan of the document at the link!

Do you think the saucer people are involved? :silly: :hi:

[blue_onyx]

25. Toyota's problems are their own fault.

Their vehicles have had quality issues that they have covered up for years and then blamed on the consumers and floor mats. Toyota is a corporation that doesn't care about you and yet you defend it as if it was your child.

If you think the US automakers are to blame for Toyota's problem, you are truly delusional.

[Romulox]

28. You = sabotaged.

:sarcasm: :rofl:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

47. Hey Mods! We were JOKING around! No need to have deleted the post, above. nt

[jakefrep]

27. Toyota isn't everything they were cracked up to be.

Apparently, that truth hurts.

[still_one]

33. very few companies are /nt

[DainBramaged]

40. Libel

Try spewing your garbage to the families of the 50+ dead from this 'character assassination'.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Trillo]

36. A consiracy? Is it of the tin-foil hat kind?

What would the motive be? It's easy to look at the cumulative cost of repairs and say that's why Toyota may not wish to fix the alleged computer problems. But what would the motive of the government be?

The only thing I can think of is that the government has mandated auto companies insert a computer between the driver and the vehicle, making many systems 'fly by wire', perhaps with lines of code to effect particular actions when certain conditions are met.

[Romulox]

38. No, that's a misreading. It's basic subservience of gov't to big business, as seen to this day.

No tinfoil required.

[Kokonoe]

39. Its not a a conspiracy with the auto industry,

Its a conspiracy to protect Toyota from the unionized American auto industry.

BushCo republicans are crooks with hands on the scale.

[IDemo]

41. For more information than you ever wanted on Toyota's electronic throttle system:

Videos and transcripts of a 'webinar' by Toyota reps and engineers detailing how the system works,
failure detection modes, and testing for electromagnetic and radio interference:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/2010-toyota-electronic-throttle-154266.aspx?ncid=12036

[Wilms]

43. k&r n/t

[TrogL]

46. If it's in the software, it may be a bitch to find

Here's the problem.

It may not be in the accelerator code. It could be someplace completely different.

It's likely a buffer overrun someplace else in the code.

Here's how it works.

Let's pretend you've got some code to warn that your turn signals are on too long. You set aside a variable to store the count of the clicks. You're short for space, so you use a variable type that only stores a maximum of 255. It's supposed to reset every time somebody turns off the turn signals. Somebody else decided the whole thing was a stupid idea and took out most of the code (including the reset) but forgot the counter. So now, every 255th' time you use your turn signals flash, a number of a larger data type gets put into this memory space, leaking into the memory allocation next door, changing that number in unexpected ways. It could be something simple like the area where the speed for the cruise control is stored, so it now decides it wants to go 200 instead of 70. It could be the register for "what do I do next?" so instead of checking the fuel-air mixture, it decides now would be a good idea to accelerate. It could be something like it only occurs if you're right turn signal has been used 256 times on a rainy day in a month ending in "y" and your radio station is tuned to a station whose digits add up to 11.

It could be any of the code anywhere in the system, reportedly millions of lines of code. Buffer ovsrruns are notoriously hard to spot.

Good luck finding it without a complete top-to-bottom code review.

[ConcernedCanuk]

48. There is a problem with TSBs (technical service bulletins)

.
.
.

Many mechanics, and mechanical supervisors DON'T READ THEM.

Most shops up here in Canada are flat-rate, you get paid for working on a vehicle, not reading.

I watched the supervisor go around in the flat-rate Ford dealership I worked in during the 70's; depositing TSBs on a regular basis on mechanic's toolboxes..

I would stop whatever and read the TSB right away,

the other mechanics threw them in a drawer with many other(unread) TSBs, and continued "making money".

I suspect this still happens.