12-Year-Old Murder Suspect To Be Tried As An Adult(11 at time of crime)

[RamboLiberal]

Source: KDKA TV Pittsburgh

NEW CASTLE (KDKA) ― A judge handed down a ruling Monday morning stating that a boy should go on trial as an adult on charges connected to the shooting death of his father's pregnant fiancée.

According to court documents, Judge Dominick Motto ruled that Jordan Brown, 12, will be tried as an adult in the fatal shooting case of 26-year-old Kenzie Houk last February at the family's farmhouse in Wampum, Lawrence County.

Judge Motto denied a petition to transfer Brown's case from criminal court to juvenile court.

One reason why prosecutors believed Brown should be tried as an adult for the murders of Houk and her unborn child is the evidence that investigators have gathered in the case.


Read more: http://kdka.com/local/Jordan.Brown.trial.2.1596875.html

---

Heinous and despite the defense's contention there is another confession I believe the kid did shoot the stepmom and there are serious problems in the family as well as with Jordan Brown.

Really mixed feelings on this one. Is this kid really beyond redemption?

[Warpy]

1. An eleven year old kid is not an adult

and this kid belongs in a psychiatric institution, not prison.

They can re evaluate him at 18.

[demosincebirth]

23. What other civilized country does this?

[tsstranger]

33. Civilized Country?

Who says we are a civilized country? We are still trying to get universal health care, we get armed protestors in the vicinity of the president, we have commited Christians murdering doctors.

Civilized? Not hardly.

[demosincebirth]

37. Well, we're suppose to be. nt

[hlthe2b]

2. I don't know how any psychiatrist could determine at age 12...

that this child could not be treated and rehabilitated with time... Seems an absolute admission of the failure of the profession, IMO.

I'm sure he is severely damaged, but irredeemable at age 12? Really?

[Love Bug]

16. Prison is not about redemption but about revenge/punishment

Unfortunately, that's the attitude that prevails in decisions like this. An 11 year old is NOT an adult, by any definition. Punishing him like one is revenge, not justice.

[demosincebirth]

26. Many dorctors in this profession are Grandiose...

You can't tell anything.

[left coaster]

3. A personality disorder is not the same as mental illness..

The former is nearly impossible to change/treat.. where as mental illness, like depression, etc., is much more treatable..

From the article:
"Meanwhile, a prosecution psychiatrist testified that Brown has personality problems - he blames others and claims no responsibility and as a result would not be amenable to treatment."

I'm no expert, but the boy sounds like he may be a sociopath.. that's a major personality disorder.

[Drops_not_Dope]

11. blames others and claims no responsibility

like you never did at age 11.

[joeglow3]

74. I am guessing the analysis done by Doctors was a bit more detailed than...

...the typical parent dealing with a typical 12 year old. I agree everything should be done to save the kid. I am just stating I think their usage of the words carry weight beyond what you and I experience with our kids.

[Drops_not_Dope]

75. um

maybe you responded to the wrong person?

[joeglow3]

82. No, right one.

You implied that every 11 year old exhibits those behaviors and, therefore, it is not significant to this specific case. I am saying those descriptors are going to be a bit beyond what the typical 11 year old exhibits.

[Drops_not_Dope]

94. Nope

sorry you misunderstood though.

[joeglow3]

95. No problem

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[1monster]

15. Personality disorder is psychobabble for "there's something wrong with the person, but we don't

have a clue of what."

So called "personality disorders" can be modified, but it takes years, vigilence, caring, and patience.

It also requires that the people working with the person with "personality disorder" like "borderline personality disorder" stop treating the person, who suffers from whatever the problems are that the pschiatric community place under such a big umbrella as "personality disorders", stop believing that the person is completely responsible these "disorders".

My guess is that these "personality disorders" are just as curable as depression and schizophrenia, which really are only treated, not cured.

Law enforcement are not about and don't care about justice or rehabilitation or whats best for the accused or the victims and their families. Law Enforcement only cares about winning the case...

on edit: corrected for clarification and typos.

[pitohui]

22. personality disorders don't change

so called personality disorders can be "modified" over "years" well i'm sure those who make money trying to "modify" personality over "years" would say that but i've never seen the slightest hint of evidence offered that this can happen

an acorn will grow up to be an oak, and a filly will grow up to be a mare, by age 11 you've got the personality you're gonna have and we all know that from a lifetime of observation

[1monster]

43. Ever lived with someone who has a "personality disorder"? I have and I have seen it modified.

The person is below average IQ and has several other physical and psychoneural problems. His IQ went from 74 to somewhere between 80 and 90 from age 11 to age 18. (That is some thing that does not happen as a general rule.) He could not communicate beyond that of a backward preschooler until he began learning to understand language at age 16. He still doesn't have the ability to understand every day rules and laws that is necessary for any individual to live even semi-independently even in an assisted living facility.
At age four he was diagnosed with eleven markers for autism, had delayed speech and didn't understand anything beyond the simplest instructions. And that is what is diagnosed as a "personality disorder"...

At age seven he spent four months in a children's psychiatric ward. The diagnosis? ADHD. :eyes:

I've seen him make strides; but it takes him years to understand what it takes average people to understand in a few minutes. (And by the way, the strides he has made were not every because of anything the psychi/psycho world helped with in any way.

At age nineteen, his mental age was five years old. Fourteen years later, his mental age is about that of a sixth grader.

Explain to me, PLEASE! what a "borderline personality disorder" is, if not, "something is wrong but we don't know what."

Is it someone who wants to please others, who would not intentionally ever hurt anyone, but dosen't necessarily know what can be psychologically damaging to others? It is someone who doesn't want to call attention to himself, so feins understanding, even to be able to mirror back explanations givin to him without understanding even half of what he is agreeing to understand? Is it someone who is unable to tell moral right from moral wrong without painstaking help from other?

Is it someone with "clear psychoneural impairment?"

Cause that is what is being diagnosed as "personality disorders" these days.

I've found most of those working in the psychiatric world, whether Ph.D. M.D., psychologists, licensed therapists, and even neuralogists working at prestigious medical centers to be poor listeners and too ready to pass on pablum rather than do the work necessary to find out what is wrong and how to treat or deal with the problem.

[EFerrari]

46. Personality disorders for the most part involve an inability to maintain

a stable sense of self and stable relationships (duh, they're reciprocal). They have nothing to do with how smart someone it or not. But they are very real and yeah, people get DXd with them when there is no money, skill or will to do the work.

[1monster]

47. By that criteria, the diagnosis of "personality disorder" is wrong for the person I've

discussed. Personally, I believe he is autistic, having had some discourse with a 27 year old autistic man who is putting himself through college (I'm sure with SSI and other government help).

I went back and checked out the markers for autism and he fits the bill.

Every psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist, and neuralogist we have taken him to has ignored the autistic markers dagnosed when he was a preschooler.

[EFerrari]

50. Same happened to my ex who I believe was a high functioning Aspie.

Everyone focused on the pd and ignored the autism that was staring them in the face. My ex was extremely smart so he compensated pretty well -- until he didn't. Argh.

[fishwax]

53. that's not consistent with my lifetime of observation at all

"by age 11 you've got the personality you're gonna have and we all know that from a lifetime of observation"

[demosincebirth]

27. The kid may be delusional

[Iowa]

41. Not quite...

"Personality disorder is psychobabble for "there's something wrong with the person, but we don't have a clue of what."

It would be more accurate to say that the personality disorder diagnoses are attempts to categorize/describe a person's "modus operandi". It's an attempt to classify people who have "upset the apple-cart" based on how they tend to behave, how they are likely to interact with others, etc. It's society's way of trying to get a handle on what they're dealing with and what they might expect going forward. But it's not a matter of not knowing what's wrong with the person. Knowing "what" is usually pretty damned obvious. Knowing "why" is another matter.

"So called "personality disorders" can be modified, but it takes years, vigilence, caring, and patience."

Well, there is a tendency for some of the worst behaviors to wane with old-age, but the underlying personality remains pretty much intact.

"My guess is that these "personality disorders" are just as curable as depression and schizophrenia..."

And your "guess" would be wrong. Maybe someday. Not today.

That said, I don't believe that it makes any sense to subject an 11 year old to the adult criminal system.

[paulsby]

48. law enforcement also cares about protecting the law abiding public from

murderous fucksticks

hth

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. Where do you draw the line then? 10? 8? 5? 2? -0.75?

[paulsby]

59. that's a good question

my point was in regards to the comment about law enforcement ONLY caring about winning cases.

fwiw, i certainly don't think a 11 or 12 yr old should EVER be sentenced to life in prison, though

[jobendorfer]

84. borderline personality disorder

This is somewhat tangent to the thread topic, but I felt I could add some information here.
I used to work as a psychotherapist at a public mental health clinic in Washington state.
Many of the people that I worked with had been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.

It is a developmental disorder, and typically occurs in people that were abused, neglected, or subjected to severely chaotic environments between birth and age 36 months. There is probably a genetic component, but I will spare you that whole debate. It is characterized by unusual levels of variability in mood, black and white thinking or "splitting", volatile relationships, a highly unstable and diffuse sense of self, and chaotic behavior. All of this to an extent that markedly interferes with the person's ability to function at work, in school, in relationships, and life generally. Para-suicidal behavior is very common, and a tendency to self-harm is often seen in people with this disorder.

It is a treatable by long-term therapy, specifically, what is called "dialectical behavior therapy", which is a form of cognitive-behavioral therapy adapted specifically for the disorder. In my experience, it typically took 3 to 5 years of weekly therapy for a client's symptoms to ease and remit.
It is a very difficult disorder to treat. At the time I was working in community mental health, BPD was just about completely unresponsive to the pharmacoepia, although that may have changed by now (sorry, stopped keeping up with the literature years ago.) Insurance companies usually exclude it, because treatment is long and therefore expensive. Consequently people who suffer from this fall into the treatment provider of last resort, typically community mental health organizations.

I will concede that BPD has been a "trashcan diagnosis" in years past. But it's a very real disorder, the people that suffer from it are truly suffering, and -- given sufficient funding and resources -- can be helped.


J.

[alcibiades_mystery]

97. Exactly right

In 100 years, the whole discourse of sociopathology that so runs our new, anti-rehabilitation philosophy will be considered a rather cruel hoax, when not outright laughed at. It is the modern day equivalent of phrenology or Lombrosism, with the supposed "MRI" evidence to "prove it" as silly as those ridiculous busts with regions highlighted, or the laughable "studies" of the "criminal face."

What a fucking joke.

[EFerrari]

42. Yes it is. Do read the DSM before you spread disinformation.

[wickerwoman]

90. Personality disorders are never diagnosed in pre-teens.

They usually emerge after 16 or 17 or in the early college years. According to the DSM, you cannot diagnose someone with a personality disorder if they are younger than 18.

Kids younger than 15 who show signs of antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy are said to have "conduct disorder" but few psychiatrists not on the payroll of the prosecution would claim that an 11 year old had an irredeemably established antisocial personality.

[BR_Parkway]

4. The same shrink would be "think of the child" had the kid fucked his

teacher or something

This makes no sense - how do you write off a person at that age as nonredeemable?

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. Fucking fucked up

The legal system in this country is a fraud. He's either a child or he isn't, and that is determined by AGE. All this "try him as an adult" business is a corruption that needs to GO.

[harmonicon]

13. THANK YOU!!

I've been saying this around here for ages when people are all for condemning children as adults; and I've been saying that it's a slippery slope. If you start trying 15 year olds as adults, 11 year olds are next, and then 8 year olds. We have a juvenile justice system for a reason. Brining these charges is an act of barbarity that shouldn't happen in the western world; further evidence that THE U.S. IS NOT A FIRST-WORLD COUNTRY.

[Ozymanithrax]

6. Redemption has nothing to do with it. An 11 year old's brain is not an adult brain...

They are not responsible in the same way and adult would be responsible.

No 11 year old or 12 year old should be tried as an adult.

[MrsBrady]

7. the article says that the defense believes an ex-boyfriend did this n/t

[RamboLiberal]

28. I think the ex-boyfriend is a far afield ruse

Unless something more comes of it. I've been following the case somewhat closely since it is in my area of local news coverage. I think it is a fairly good certainty that the kid did shoot the stepmom. There seemed to be some jealousy that the stepmom was expecting a boy and the boy was going to be named after the father. IMHO the kid may have been feeling he was being pushed aside somewhat for his dad's attention by the new baby coming.

[MrsBrady]

60. I went back and read an earlier story...

but I'm not a lawyer on the case, and I haven't seen any of the evidence...so I wouldn't know either way, really.

Seems to me that someone this young shouldn't be jailed with adults. I don't care if he did it or not.
I'm not saying he should be walking around in public, but I just don't see how it's ethical at all to even think about that.
He needs some serious help if he did it...and he needs even MORE help if he did not.

[liberalmuse]

8. That is fucking barbaric.

Yes, and so is murder, but an 11 year old should NEVER, EVER be tried as an adult. WTF is wrong with people? Jesus FUCK.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. This is ridiculous. An 11 year old has minimal brain development and can't...

be diagnosed for much-- unless the diagnosis is done for the prosecution, preferably by a paid shil.

What on earth could possibly be the point of trying him as an adult, except some sort of revenge fantasy? He will then presumably be sent to an adult prison where he WILL become irredeemable. Or, maybe he'll get the death penalty, which is illegal for minors, but they might find a way let it kick in at 21, right around the time his appeals run out.

The entire situation is tragic, and this kid, whatever he did or didn't do, will continue the tragedy as long as the law tries to fit him into one of its cubbyholes.

[zonkers]

10. Welcome to a life behind bars.

[samsingh]

12. because of the crime he should be tried as an adult

and punished accordingly.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Nevermind the insignificant "conviction" thingee. nt

[Occulus]

17. Barbaric. n/t

[samsingh]

18. try to think about the victims

[greiner3]

19. Won't someone think of the children?

[samsingh]

44. the victims - whether they are children or not - they are still victims

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. Where do you draw the line then? 10? 8? 5? 2? -0.75?

[samsingh]

66. 5 maybe

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Holy crap, you're serious, aren't you?

:crazy: :freak:

[samsingh]

77. maybe not 5, but definitely 10.

[happyslug]

86. The Common Law Rule was 14.

While you could marry at age 12 (and have sex at age 12) under the Common Law, insanity was the inability to think like a "14 year old". One thing about the Common Law, it could be harsh but on cases like this it applied reality to such cases NOT theory that is in fashion when the law was adopted.

[superconnected]

20. Knee jerk reaction says it's just a kid, try him like a kid. However I'm going to guess the judge

is going on a case by case basis and knows more than me so reached his decision intelligently. Maybe he fears for everyone if the kid gets out so feels he needs to make sure the kid gets a stiffer sentence than 8 months in juvie.

[demigoddess]

25. or is he one of those judges who have to be elected??

is that part of his decision?

[RamboLiberal]

29. I believe he has to be elected

This is also a somewhat rural county in PA though there is some urban area in New Castle. An area that has seen a lot of industry leave. Very much Republican. Saw tons of McCain/Palin signs when I was in the area during the election. Also have seen some vile anti-Obama signs since.

[pitohui]

21. i was once 11 and had DAMN good reason to kill somebody, yet somehow i didn't

let's get real, all of us were 11 once, and there are many on DU who were victims of physical and/or sexual child abuse or other horrendous crimes

and yet we somehow managed to get thru it w-out killing anyone

we knew at age 11 that killing pregnant women is wrong and evil and JUST NOT DONE by decent people

for those who pretend that an 11 yr old can't know wrong or right or make a decision to act (or not act) like a decent person...at what age do YOU suggest we stop giving free "kills" to minors? just wondering

sorry, there was many and many a day when i thought about picking up a shotgun and taking someone out (or taking myself out) but i didn't do it, because i knew it was wrong

if this kid doesn't know at age 11 that "thou shalt not kill" giving him a free kill sure won't teach him different

i can't judge the merits of this particular case but the argument that a minor is too impaired by reason of age to know between right and wrong is itself just wrong and a threat to society, some minors, the true sociopaths, would use that to get away w. serious shit

[wickerwoman]

91. No one has proposed letting him walk.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of a "free kill" from.

If tried in juvenile court, he would still spend at least six to ten years in prison.

The question is whether or not someone should get life in prison (or conceivably the death penalty) for something they did when they were 11. You can know the difference between right and wrong in the abstract and still not have the impulse control at 11 to deal as well with powerful emotions and confronting situations as you did.

I think something like the British system is a better compromise. Juvenile offenders are tried as juveniles but after they turn 18 they can be kept in prison at her Majesty's pleasure (until pardoned by the Queen).

There should be a means for extending the sentences of juvenile offenders who show no sign of remorse or reform at 18 and who continue to pose a threat to society. But life in prison for an 11 year old is just vindictive. You can't look at a kid that age and say "this kid will never contribute anything to society and will always be a danger to it."

I'm sorry but I don't believe there's anything you can possibly do as an 11 year old that would justify taking away any chance of your ever participating in mainstream society.

[ConcernedCanuk]

24. This is in the USA, right?

.
.
.

no surprise

The USA is one of the most ingenious nations when it comes to figuring out the greatest percentage of their population they can put in jail.

or their armed forces . . . .

HEY!

don't they actually glean some of these "criminals" to enter the armed forces ??

I heard that somewhere . . .

[RamboLiberal]

30. Here's the judges opinion

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/pdf/201003/20100329opinion_motto_jordanbrown.pdf

I should also mention in this case the father is not looking for retribution against his son. He would like to see him tried as a juvenile. From what I've heard in news media the kid acted like a child when he was taken into custody, crying and not understanding why he couldn't go home.

[superconnected]

31. Maybe you should read it, looks like the kid shot her without her provoking it, and he tried to

cover it up, and he was found to be without mental illness. He refuses to take responsibility for his action so the judge says that he shouldn't be tried in the juvenile court system - which requires a defendant to take responsibility for their actions. - all of this is on Page 17, the 2nd to last page.

[RamboLiberal]

32. I read it and have been following the case

I'm not making excuses for the kid - but kids also tend to act out in anger w/o fully thinking through the consequences. I always thought the father should've faced negliegence charges as well for leaving the kid have access to the shotgun & the shells.

Too a kid having a baby displace you in your father's eyes with a new wife, having the kid named after the father when you the firstborn weren't, and even losing your room to the new baby. Heck adults commit murder for just as much.

I just don't think an 11 year olds mind is as wired to consequences as an adults and that this kid deserves to be locked up for the rest of his life.

[RamboLiberal]

34. More from Pittsburgh Post Gazette

A defense psychologist testified that the case should be moved to juvenile court, in part, because an adolescent's brain does not control impulses in a "mature way." The expert acknowledged that the fact that Jordan Brown denied culpability for the killing would be of concern if it were confirmed as fact that he committed the homicide. A prosecution psychiatrist testified Jordan Brown isn't likely to be rehabilitated in juvenile court, which would have jurisdiction over him only until he is 21. He cited the boy's refusal to take responsibility for the killing, as well as his behavior since then, as factors in his analysis.

-----


The judge said in his opinion: "In evaluating the foregoing testimony, including the testimony of both experts and the evidence presented relative to Defedant's progress at the Edmund L. Thomas Adolescent Center, the Court concludes it is not likely Defendant can be rehabilitated prior to the expiration of the juvenie court jurisdiction."

He also discussed the issues of the nature of the crime and of premeditation: "The evidence presented by the Commonwealth showed that the victim, Kenzie Marie Houk, 8 1/2 months pregnant, was in bed at the time she was murdered. She was totally defenseless at the time her life and teh life of her unborn fetus was taken by a shotgun blast to the back of her head. There is no indication of any provocation by the victim that led to her killing. This offense was an execution-style killing of a defenseless pregnant young mother. A more horrific crime is difficult to imagine." The judge said the evidence indicated that "the commission of the crime demonstrated a degree of criminal sophistication" on the part of the boy, and that the offense was "necessarily premeditated."

If convicted, Jordan Brown faces life in prison. If he is tried and convicted of first-degree murder in adult court, experts say, he would become the youngest person in the United States to serve a mandatory life sentence in prison without parole.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10088/1046524-455.stm#ixzz0jagtZNuu

[tedk_355]

35. unbelievable

[livetohike]

39. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[WeekendWarrior]

36. No child should ever be tried as an adult

It has been proven time and time again that children are unable to reason like adults and do not fully understand the consequences of their actions. They may know what they're doing is wrong, but they certainly don't understand the full weight of it. It's ridiculous to subject a child to a system designed for adults. And everytime I see this happen, I feel sick.

[samsingh]

45. it has not been proven

children who committ horrible crimes should be punished and removed from society.

[WeekendWarrior]

63. That's idiotic

Children who commit horrible crimes need help, not punishment. For crap's sake, what kind of a progressive are you?

[samsingh]

65. i'm very progressive. and i care about victims.

while we talk about helping the criminals, there are innocent victims.

do you remember the 2 'young' boys that killed a 2 year old in England in the 90s? Do you know how horribly they killed and mutilated the 2 year old?

Your fury, directed at me, should be saved for the criminals that hurt the innocent. What kind of a progressive are you, not to care about the victims?

[WeekendWarrior]

68. And when did I say I didn't care about the victims?

You're the one saying you don't give a damn about the boy. I've never made any such claim about the victims, so please don't put words in my mouth.

If your only concern is the victim, then all you care about is revenge.

Why discard this child as if he's dirty laundry when he may well be able to be helped?

Your lack of compassion sickens me.

[samsingh]

78. save some of your 'sickens me' for the repugs

i didn't say i don't give a damn about the boy. i think the boy should be punished like an adult because the crime is that of an adult.

i do care about revenge. i believe in revenge out of respect for victims.

i save my compassion for the victims.

talking about escalation - you have no idea how compassionate i really am. can't you have a conversation without personal attacks? 'sickens me!'

have you spent anytime with the victims of crime?

[mitchum]

96. OOOPS! One of those "redeemed and rehabilitated children" in England is quite a recidivist

"James Bulger’s killer Jon Venables was sent back to jail on suspicion of child porn offences, the Sunday ­Mirror can reveal.

The reason for Venables’ recall was kept secret by the Government but we can exclusively reveal that probation chiefs revoked his licence once the allegations had been made.

Venables, 27, has been in constant rehab­ili­tation for torturing James to death.

But if he has ­committed offences involving child porn while being ­supervised by probation officers the revelation will send shockwaves through the criminal justice ­system and will also raise questions about the virtually unprecedented rights and privileges he has enjoyed since he has been released.

James’s mother Denise publicly warned that Venables and Robert Thompson, both aged 10 when they murdered two-year-old James on Mersey­side in 1993, would go on to commit other offences if released"

[NYC_SKP]

71. "Removal from Society"...

...and trying not yet fully developed children as adults are two different things.

Your contention that "it has been proven children who committ (sic) horrible crimes should be punished..." is not supported by research.

NYC_SKP

[depakid]

38. What is it with Pennsylvania and kids?

[Jim__]

40. This will make him one of the youngest defendants in Pennsylvania history to face a trial for ...

... first-degree murder.

Our country is sick!

[MadMaddie]

49. I think they need to create a new area of law to cover these

age groups. Treating him as an adult is not appropriate.

[Abq_Sarah]

83. There should be some middle ground

Between throwing away the key and erasing the slate at age 21.

The kid needs help, no doubt. If he can be rehabilitated in juvenile, the state has an obligation to give it a try. At the age of 21, they can reevaluate him and move him into a 10 year probationary period.

[Douglas Carpenter]

51. do those who say a 12y/o should be tried as an adult also think the age of consent should be 12?

how about the drinking age, should that also be 12? Should the driving age also be 12? Should a 12 year old be able to decide to live on their own and decide whether or not they go to school?

The entire principle of a juvenile justice system is the same as the principle of age of consent laws; the belief that children or adolescents below a certain age lack the fully developed mental and emotional facilities to make adult level decisions and choices and are simply too young to adequately and fully understand what they are doing or consenting to - and are thus granted special legal protections - specifically because they are not deemed capable of fully understanding what they are doing and what are the entire consequences and meanings of their actions.

The entire rational basis of legally protecting someone that age from corruption and exploitation by adults, presumes that someone so young does not have all the faculties to handle adult decisions. It is just so obvious that if almost everyone agrees that a 12-year-old is too young to make rational decisions about drinking, driving, going to school, having sex or even just living on their own - how on earth can someone turn around and declare that a 12-year-old has all the faculties to be tried and punished as an adult? - as if the most desperate and out of control action they ever took in their entire life - was the one and only area in which they were fully capable of understanding what they were doing.

If I may repost something once posted by PA Democrat who I thank for their contribution:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7540437#7541832

Scientific research shows that the parts of the brain responsible for impulse control, judgment, etc. do not fully mature for a NON-DISABLED person until sometime after the age of 21. For people with developmental disabilities the level of immaturity is much more pronounced.


http://teenagebrain.blogspot.com /


<snip>

We once thought that the brain was fully formed by the end of childhood, but research has shown that adolescence is a time of profound brain growth and change. We now know:

Between childhood and adulthood the brain’s “wiring diagram ” becomes more complex and more efficient, especially in the brain’s prefrontal cortex.

The greatest changes to the parts of the brain that are responsible for impulse-control, judgment, decision-making, planning, organization and involved in other functions like emotion, occur in adolescence. This area of the brain (prefrontal cortex) does not reach full maturity until around age 25!

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=adolescents_maturity_and_the_law

The recent push to lower the age threshold for treating juvenile offenders as adults assumes that adolescents are no different from adults in the capacities that comprise maturity and hence culpability, and that they have adult-like competencies to understand and meaningfully participate in criminal proceedings.

But the new science reliably shows that adolescents think and behave differently from adults, and that the deficits of teenagers in judgment and reasoning are the result of biological immaturity in brain development. The adolescent brain is immature in precisely the areas that regulate the behaviors that typify adolescents who break the law. Studies of brain development show that the fluidity of development is probably greatest for teenagers at 16 and 17 years old, the age group most often targeted by laws promoting adult treatment.

Teens at these ages tend to be poor decision-makers when it comes to crime. They often lack the several elements of psychosocial development that characterize adults as mature, including the capacity for autonomous choice, self-management, risk perception, and the calculation of future consequences.

[UpInArms]

52. George W. Bush had youthful "indiscretions" until the age of 40

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_substance_abuse_controversy

Bush has described his days before his religious conversion in his 40s as his "nomadic" period and "irresponsible youth" and admitted to drinking "too much" in those years. In Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President by James Hatfield, Bush is quoted as saying that "alcohol began to compete with my energies ... I'd lose focus". Although Bush states that he was not an alcoholic, he has acknowledged that he was "drinking too much",<1>

Nicholas D. Kristof quotes Bush's cousin Elsie Walker as saying, "He was a riot. But afterward, when you're older, that can wear thin", and gives the example of Bush asking a "proper" female friend of his parents at a family cocktail party, "So, what's sex like after 50, anyway?"<1>
In December 1966 (age 20), he was arrested for disorderly conduct after he and some friends had "a few beers" and stole a Christmas wreath from a hotel.<2> The charges were later dropped.
On September 4, 1976 (age 30), Bush was arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol near his family's summer home in Kennebunkport, Maine. He admitted his guilt, was fined US$150, and had his driving license in the state suspended for two years, although the White House had claimed 30 days.<3> This incident did not become public knowledge until it was reported by Erin Fehlau of Maine FOX affiliate WPXT-TV in the week before the 2000 election.<4>

The most notorious episode, reported in numerous diverse sources including U.S. News & World Report on November 1, 1999, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq by Robert Parry, First Son: George W. Bush and the Bush Family Dynasty by Bill Minutaglio, and W: Revenge of the Bush Dynasty by Elizabeth Mitchell, has 26-year-old Bush visiting his parents in Washington, D.C. over the Christmas vacation in 1972, shortly after the death of his grandfather, and taking his 16-year-old brother Marvin out drinking. On the way home Bush lost control of the car and ran over a waste container, but continued home with the garbage can wedged noisily under the car. When his father, George H. W. Bush, called him on the carpet for not only his own behavior but for exposing his younger brother to risk, George W., still under the influence, appears to have retorted angrily, "I hear you're looking for me. You wanna go mano-a-mano right here?" Before the elder Bush could reply, the situation was defused by brother Jeb, who took the opportunity to surprise his father with the happy news that George W. had been accepted to Harvard Business School.<5>

During the 2000 presidential campaign, Bush said that he gave up drinking after waking up with a hangover after his 40th birthday celebration: "I quit drinking in 1986 and haven't had a drop since then." He ascribed the change in part to a 1985 meeting with Reverend Billy Graham, after which he began serious Bible study, as well as to gentle but persistent pressure from his wife, Laura.<6><7><8> However this claim has been challenged by some due to a 2004 interview Graham did with Brian Williams where he said.

"I've heard others say that, and people have written it, but I cannot say that," he says. "I was with him and I used to teach the Bible at Kennebunkport to the Bush family when he was a younger man, but I never feel that I in any way turned his life around."<9>

so, what is the standard?

12 is an "adult" but 40 is "youthful" and not responsible?

Pick one. Stick with it. It doesn't matter who, what, when or where. Just stick with it. Otherwise, it means nothing.

[fishwax]

54. no mixed feelings for me

It's a tragic situation, to be sure. But an 11-year-old is not an adult.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Thanks to a recent SCOTUS decision, he can't be executed. If that bothers you, reply here. -nt

[Stinky The Clown]

58. This has the potential to be a death penalty case.

Then what? Wait till he's 21 to fry him?

This is a CHILD. Some of what he does may seem adult, but his mind is immature. Abstractions (like guilt) (like genuine sorrow) may well be beyond his emotional capacity.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. I, being a psychic, answered your question 2 minutes before you asked.

Edit: yeah, I know it certainly doesn't "bother" you in any way, but the synchronicity was amusing.

[Stinky The Clown]

62. To be honest, I saw your post when mine posted after I typed it.

:hi:

[TorchTheWitch]

64. guilt and sorrow are NOT adult only emotions

If this kid at his age is unable to feel emotions such as guilt or sorrow he isn't normal. It's understanding significant consequences as an adult that aren't fully developed in a child, not being incapable of feeling compassionate emotions. He DOES understand consequences in that he attempted to hide what he did, and in the time he's been in the juvenile center he is said to be evasive, and always tries to deny his own trangressions while attempting to shift blame to others. Like most kids his age he has a limited grasp of processing SIGNIFICANT consequences... he knew that killing his stepmother was wrong and therefore tried to hide that he did it and still won't admit that he DID do it, but he likely didn't grasp the enormity of what would happen to him as a result of his killing her.

I don't agree that he should spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole, but I also don't believe he should be let out at age 21 especially since all the psych experts on both sides agree that he probably wouldn't be rehabilitated by that time if ever. I think he's a serious sociopath and incapable of rehabilitation. This kid has behavioral issues that are a detriment to society and I don't think rehabilitation is possible. There needs to be something in between life without parole and free at 21 for cases like this.

I think there should also be serious legal consequences for his father allowing this kid to have access to loaded weapons as well. He let the kid keep the guns and ammo in his own damn bedroom for God's sake.

[Stinky The Clown]

72. Whatever .... the effect is still the same ...... he's a KID

He's not innocent. He might well be a danger to society.

But he is ..... a ....... kid.

Your broad comments are quite correct, I agree.

I marvel at how you're able to diagnose his specific illnesses.

[TorchTheWitch]

89. he's a cold blooded murdering kid

And needs to be kept away from society until such time that he is rehabilitated if that is possible. Trying him as a juvenile lets him out with a clean slate at 21 unrehabilitated and still a danger to society. The problem here is that the law does not make allowances for special and rare circumstances as this giving only two choices neither of which are suitable. However, the law needs to side with the greater good of society, and the greater good of society is to not let a cold blooded unrehabilitated murderer back into society with a clean slate.

This kid is NOT normal, not because of his age but because there is something deeply wrong with him whether a mental illness or "personality disorder" or whatever the hell it is. Whatever it is needs to be identified, and he needs to be helped WHILE being kept away from society as much as it is possible for him to be helped. If he CAN be completely rehabilitated, fabulous... let him back into society THEN. Until THEN he is a danger to society regardless of his age... despite his age he has already cold bloodedly murdered a family member for no justifiable reason and blithly and without remorse went off on his merry way and cannot be in a position to ever do such a ghastly thing again.

I gave my OPINION on what I think is wrong with him given what I already know about sociopaths and what the experts have said about him. And I doubt I'm far off the mark. It's ridiculous to imagine that this kid is normal. He isn't. Normal kids don't cold bloodedly murder people without any justification or remorse and without a qualm go their merry way or such horrible crimes as this by kids his age would be epidemic.

[wickerwoman]

99. Nobody said they were.

Kids develop at different rates. This kid may be behind the "guilt" and "empathy" curve. But is "not being normal" or being less developed than his peers a reason to send him to prison for life?

The point is that the fact that he hasn't developed those things at 11 does not indicate that he has no capacity to develop them.

There's a very good reason you can't diagnose someone younger than 18 as a sociopath. Our personalities aren't clearly established before then (and often not until quite a bit later).

I agree that in cases like this there should be a monitoring and evaluation process which can allow his sentence to be extended at 21 if he does eventually develop into a sociopath.

But no way should you be able to punish someone whose personality and sense of morality are still developing in exactly the same way as someone whose personality and morality could reasonably be expected to be established.

[RamboLiberal]

70. No it is not a death penalty case

It was ruled out by a SCOTUS ruling from what I've been hearing.

[happyslug]

87. No, even the US Supreme Court has ruled you can NOT execute minors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_v._Simmons

The actual Opinion in Roper vs Simmons (2005) in which the US Supreme Court struck down laws permitting the execution of anyone under 18:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/04pdf/03-633.pdf

[happyslug]

93. NOT being a Death Penalty case will help

One of reasons District Attorneys (DAs)go for the Death Penalty is that most people who oppose the death penalty, also tend to NOT to be "Convicters" (i.e. people the DA can count on to convict even if the evidence shows a person is innocent). Thus by asking for the death penalty, DAs are assure of a friendly jury to convict a defendant.

Given that the death penalty is NOT a factor in this case, it will be harder for DAs to get convicters on the Jury (And tend to get a more liberal jury as a result). This will make it easier on the child, the jury may end up compromising on a Manslaughter charge (Or a Third Degree Murder charge). Remember only First Degree Murder carries with it "Life without Parole" and by NOT having the Death Penalty in the case, he has a better chance of getting a something less then "Life without Parole".

[Rage Inc.]

67. The wignuts will demand your head. Unless, of course...

...you're a fetus!

[RamboLiberal]

73. Turns out PA has one of the highest rates of juveniles tried as adults

and serving life sentences without parole. Around 440 now. Other high states are Michigan and Louisiana. Most other states including those surrounding us including WV, OH, VA, DC have in single or low double digits. Even Texas has very few.

[smokey nj]

80. Wasn't it a PA judge who took bribes in exchange for sending kids to prison?

My memory of the case is a bit fuzzy, but I think it happened in PA. I could be mistaken though.

[happyslug]

85. That was Dauphin County (Harrisburg) NOT New Castle

n/t

[closeupready]

76. Physiologically, he's only half-grown at 11. No way he should be tried as an adult.

Put him in juvie and then check on him again at 18.

[Baclava]

79. He has that Michael Myers look going on behind those eyes - did he wear a mask?

"No reason, no conscience, no understanding; even the most rudimentary sense of life or death, good or evil, right or wrong.. the blackest eyes... I spent eight years trying to reach him, and then another seven trying to keep him locked up because I realized what was living behind that boy's eyes was purely and simply... *evil*.

[One_Life_To_Give]

81. Kicked free with clean record in 10 or tried as an adult

Is there any middle ground?
Neither extreme seems totally appropriate in such cases.

[Ter]

88. He's already 6'1?

N/T.

[Amaya]

92. this is just sick

this is what's wrong with america- no other western countries are doing shit like this- we are fucking barbarians.
2,424,279 incarcerated - 3,297 sit on death row

how sick :(



this CHILD deserves to be REHABILITATED in a juvenile facility, he needs psychological help- not to be locked up with real criminals.

... what is wrong with this country!:banghead:

[zelta gaisma]

98. if he is tried as an adult does that mean the courts recognize him as one?n/t

[Ysabel]

100. how can a child ever be judged by "peers"...

??

- any child found guilty by an adult jury is being denied the right to be tried by a jury of peers...

-------------------------

edited to add: really no matter what the outcome (innocent or guilty)...

[slackmaster]

101. The good news is that this one was caught early

Before he kills a whole bunch more people.

[d_r]

102. I do not believe an 11-year-old should be tried as an adult

They do not have the same ability to understand the consequences of their actions as an adult.