Japanese start buying affordable electric cars

[boomerbust]

Source: AP

TOKYO— Japan's first mass-market electric car went on sale in showrooms Thursday as the futuristic technology becomes more affordable amid a burgeoning price war.

The four-seater bubble-shaped i-MiEV from Mitsubishi Motors Corp., Japan's fifth-biggest automaker, costs 2.8 million yen ($30,500) after government incentives are figured into the price of 4 million yen ($43,000).

Proud i-MiEV buyer Chitoshi Okunuki, 72, placed an advance order at a higher price in August and was thrilled at Mitsubishi's decision Tuesday to cut the price by 620,000 yen ($6,700). That came the same day rival Nissan Motor Co. announced it will take orders for its own electric car, the Leaf.

"I'm so happy," said Okunuki, who runs a convenience store, during a visit to a Mitsubishi showroom. "It's so quiet, and there are no emissions


Read more: http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/9000/10836346/Japanese_start_buying_affordable_electric_cars

[Kolesar]

1. Japan used to subsidize the price of products in the US market

...so that they could ultimately take market share.

[dipsydoodle]

3. Bit like US farm subsidies.

screwing 3rd world countries. :sarcasm:

[dipsydoodle]

2. They've been out on trial in the UK too.

Literally cost buttons to run and recharge from a normal mains socket. From memory max between recharges is about 100 miles.

[dotymed]

4. MY God

I applaud Japan. Why can't we do that here? All of our policies are designed to keep the wealth in the hands of a few. Fuck the oil companies, they are the past. Fossils, just like the oil they pursue. Aren't our ruling class , (thats what we have) supposed to be intelligent and far sighted? Instead of "subsidizing" "drill baby Drill", shouldn't we subsidize ideas that raise our technology level and bring jobs? I wonder how many people Japan has put to work PRODUCING these cars? A helluva lot more than the 381 jobs we "saved" by keeping mountain top removal. Things will not change and America will keep sliding toward third world status, as long as we let the money run things. They are only interested in short term profits. Every since Raygun killed the FAIRNESS DOCTRINE (purposefully),Americans have not been informed of the real opportunities available to us. That would endanger the money already accumulated by the wealthy.

[dipsydoodle]

5. Links for you

http://www.owningelectriccar.com/mitsubishi-electric-car.html

http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news/25-mitsubishi-electric-cars-start-12-month-user-trials-996.aspx

http://europeanmotornews.com/2009/12/11/mitsubishi-i-miev-launches-uks-largest-public-electric-car-trial-in-west-midlands/

Bet you thought I meant either cuff links or golf links. :)

[Tesha]

9. "cost buttons to run" really isn't true.

Yes, per mile, EVs cost less than gasoline-powered
cars to run, but the costs are by no means negligible.

Last time I did the calculations (considering the numbers
that plug-in Prius folks were using), I think* it worked out to
costing the equivalent of $1/gallon gas. That is, "filling up"
the car with electricity cost a dollar or two for that fifty-mileish
range they were claiming for the best plug-in conversions.

Bottom line: if your electricity comes from renewable resources
or nuclear, you're doing a good thing by driving an EV. Otherwise,
your just shifting the pollution from a bunch of distributed
sources to a few point sources (which may be a good thing
or not, but isn't a "great" thing).

Tesha

*NB: My memories here are vague and I haven't re-done the
calculations today.

[dipsydoodle]

10. I think ot costs about

$1.50 for a full charge to cover c. 100 miles. Sounds cheap to me hence why I said buttons. You might also need to allow for the fact that our fuel in the UK now costs over $8 / imperial gallon. So - in my Wrangler Unlited it would cost me about $24 to do 100 miles. Still reckon buttons is out of line ? :shrug:

[Tesha]

12. It's not fair to compare a dinky EV to a Jeep Wrangler. (NT)

[dipsydoodle]

15. OK - so draw the comparison

with one of our small diesel European hatchbacks which do at least 70mpg imperial. Charging one of those Mitsis is still buttons in comparison with the equivalent fuel cost.

[dotymed]

16. Hydro-Electricity

Why was that "phased out?"
Is there a way to provide hydro-electricity without Fossil fueled "back-up generators?

[daleo]

17. You could put solar panels on your garage roof

And charge an EV via home generated electricity. Just a thought, no doubt it would need a detailed energy budget analysis to uncover the possible problems.

[Tesha]

18. And in about three weeks, you'll have enough charge to drive to work.

Okay, I'm exaggerating. But let's crunch some numbers. Let's
assume the EV runs on 10 HP. (That's probably way optimistic,
but let's go with that.) That's 7400 Watts. Let's drive for an hour
at 60 MPH. That means we needed 7400 Watt-hours to make
10 HP continuously.

Solar insolation (the total amount of solar radiation reaching
the surface of the planet) is about 1000 Watts/square meter.
But solar cells aren't 100% efficient, they're more like 15% or
20% efficient. And that's if the sun is aimed directly at the
cells. So as the sun moves throughout the day, flat solar cells
on a roof won't do as well as that 15-20% theoretical efficiency.
It's probably more like 10%. So our solar cells will probably
make about 100 Watts/square meter averaged across the day.
(The sunny day, BTW.)

So now let's charge the car. Let's assume we have 8 hours to
do it, or to make the math easier, 7.4 hours. We need 1000 Watts
to produce that 7400 Watt-Hours so we need 10 square meters
of solar cells.

Ten square meters of solar cells is not inconceivable for a
garage roof, but we've made several very optimistic assumptions:

o It's sunny.

o The car is actually there during the day rather than sitting
in the parking lot at your job.

o There's 100% efficiency in the electrical system that charges
the battery, 100% efficiency in the system that discharges
the battery into the motor, and 100% efficiency in the motor
itself.

o That 10 HP is actually enough to power the car to 60 MPH.

Now with "net metering", you can probably dodge the problem
of the car being away during the day, but the rest of the problems
are very real and not so easily dodged.

The dream of an EV that runs on your own solar electricity can be
realized, but it's (presently) a difficult, expensive proposition.

Tesha

[daleo]

19. My first point of disageement

is that a typical commute is an hour at 60 mph. That may apply in some places but ot certainly doesn't apply in my area. I live about a mile from my job (I walk to work). Admittedly, my commute is relatively short, but sixty seems long to me.

[Tesha]

20. Well remember that it's always nice to come home again from work.

So 60 miles is a round trip meaning we're talking 30 miles each way.
Around here, that's probably tragically typical as it takes you, for
example, from the bedroom community of Nashua, NH to just
touching Route 128, home of a lot of the employers in this area.

And also remember that I was wildly optimistic about the car being
able to run on 10 HP. Your average lawn tractor is rated at 8 or 12
HP and a 1965 Volkswagen Beetle made 44 HP. A 2010 Toyota Prius
make 98 HP from its internal combustion engine. So 10 HP is the sort
of power level that an extraordinarily aerodynamic two-seater ultra-
lightweight vehicle might consume, but a practical EV will use more
power. It would probably also be nice if the EV has heat in the winter
time and maybe AC in the summertime; that will take more power.

So you can disagree with me all you like, but as Scotty once said:
"I can'na change the laws of physics" and sadly, neither can you.

Tesha

[daleo]

21. OK, here are my calculations

I have a physics degree, so it's hard to pass up a challenge, especially when Scotty is invoked:

Solar Power from Garage EV Calculation

Solar insolation 1000 W/m2
roof size 25 m2
Angle of sun 45 deg (avg over 10 hours)
Sin 0.71
Efficiency 15% pct
Power 2,652 Watts
Hours sunlight 10
sec/hr 3600
Joules 95,459,415
J/Hphr 2,680,000
Hphr 36
EV Hp 20
Hours EV 1.78

So, assuming a 15% system efficiency (probably achievable) and 10 hours of relatively strong sunlight, this looks doable to me. Note that I assumed a 20 HP EV rather than 10, to be somewhat conservative.

In my part of the world (53 degrees latitude) these conditions would apply in the summer. In fact around here summer could be much better as 16 hours of sunshine is possible. In spring/fall, the calculation gives about 45 minutes of juice, in winter only about 15 minutes. Obviously this would work better as a year round application at more southerly latitudes.

If we assume a 10 HP EV all these numbers are doubled.

Obviously this method wouldn't work every day, due to cloudy days. But it does appear to have the possibility to usefully harness a substantial amount of solar energy.

The cost might not be worth it, but that's another matter.

[Tesha]

22. 15 minutes for 25 square meters seems to support my contention that one really...

...can't expect their garage roof to power their EV, even if one's garage
faces south. This is especially true if, as I mentioned, you expect your
car to have heat in the winter time.

(I don't really think we're disagreeing here.)

Tesha

[daleo]

23. The 15 minutes applied to mid-winter

And I conceded that it wouldn't be a reasonable solution on the Canadian prairie in December.

Interestingly, I just came back from a stroll through the back lanes of my neighborhood, where I spotted a garage suite with 18 large solar panels. They were up pretty high on a steeply pitched south facing roof, and some pretty serious looking electrical cabling was coming off them (through two different junction boxes, then into the garage).

I don't know if this city has net metering yet, though I know there has been talk about it. There are a lot of well off academics in this area, so he probably has the money and know-how to be an early adapter, whatever he is doing.

[mbperrin]

6. I'm ready to buy one today.

In fact, not going to buy another vehicle until one like these is available here.

[madokie]

7. Sure wish I'd be around to see them here

[dmallind]

8. Hell I have under 2 years to go and I will so your health outlook must be terrible indeed.

That very same Nissan Leaf is on sale here next year - actually this year in limited markets.

[madokie]

11. Cancer is a bitch

I'd much rather drop over and die as to be where I'm heading.

[dmallind]

14. I hear ya. IPF here but still same endgame. Less pain than you probably though. Best wishes. NT

[goclark]

13. I'll have to wait if that is the tiny car

that I saw on the streets yesterday.

I was hit from behind while driving my PT Cruiser and I want more distance between my neck and the car behind me.

I sold it immediately!

I'll wait until the majority of them are on the road, then I may try it.

Isn't that the car that looks like a golf cart?

In crazy Los Angeles that is like driving a bug down the street.