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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 04:46 PM
Original message
Atheist dad ready for date at top court ("Under God" challenge)
Atheist dad ready for date at top court
California man to argue against 'under God' in pledge




Greg Lucas, Sacramento Bureau Chief
Monday, March 22, 2004

Sacramento -- Michael Newdow will stand before the highest court in the land for 30 minutes on Wednesday and defend his view that the words "under God'' should be struck from the Pledge of Allegiance.

Since getting a federal appeals court in 2002 to agree with him, Newdow, an atheist, has been at the center of a pitched debate over where the line between religion and government is drawn. Newdow's quest to strip the pledge of "religious endorsement'' has led to death threats against the 50-year-old resident of Elk Grove (Sacramento County). Politicians from President Bush on down and religious groups have condemned the appellate court ruling in Newdow's favor. Even U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said the lower court's decision was "contrary to our whole tradition,'' a statement that prevents Scalia from hearing Newdow's case.

But for the doctor-turned-lawyer who brought the case on behalf of his 9- year-old daughter, this week's Supreme Court hearing is not the most important court case in his life.

Newdow is embroiled in a nearly 5-year-long child-custody fight that has consumed him and left him bitter.

More at the San Francisco Chronicle
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. He was on CSPAN
this morning. He is quite articulate, much more so than the callers. It will be interesting to see the outcome.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. He was quite impressive and respectful.
He appeared very clear, without any appearance of any bitterness or whatnot. He simply seeks a secular governance that respects all perspectives.
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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. That has consumed him and left him bitter...
Wow. That's flattering.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. ya, I thought that was a bit odd
Even if he was consumed and bitter, I'd think a newspaper would have chosen, oh I don't know, a more tactful way to present that fact...
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yeah
How dare he not just give up on his daughter?

Good thing we've got a liberal media to represent all sides in the case.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Michael Newdow: American hero
I applaud him. His rational attempt to preserve the Jeffersonian wall is admirable, and necessary if we are to resist the theocrats a little longer.

Of course, he doesn't stand a chance. But if we can just eke out a secular state for another generation, that will be an accomplishment. Better we are swallowed by the tides of ignorance when we're old, rather than while still young enough to taste sweet freedom from religion!
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. What happens if the court splits 4 to 4?
Since Scalia is recused, that's possible. If that happens, then does the 9th Circuit ruling stand, but only in the western states? I need to find this out.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. Then the original decision stands, as is conidered the majority opinion.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
41. What REALLY happens? The right get's a new issue for November.
And Kerry gets another topic he doesn't dare take sides on. Either way he goes loses more votes than he can spare.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. is this guy an atheist, or "non-monotheist"?

There's an interesting paragraph near the end of the article, that says Newdow has always been "non-monotheistic".

furthermore, he's apparently a member of a church, and founder of another?

It's no skin off my nose either way, but it makes me wonder if we ought to be referring to him as an atheist, if he actually believes in some sort of god(s).
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rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. You don't have to be an atheist to want to keep separation of
church and state. Merely someone who believes in the Constitution.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I agree,

And I support the guy regardless. I'm just curious about whether he's an actual atheist. Lots of people, including some reporters, are sloppy with that term, and use it to mean practically anybody who doesn't believe in the Christian god.
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rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You got that right
"Reporters" and "accurate use of a term" don't go together anymore.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. "contrary to our whole tradition"
50 years of red-baiting is "our whole tradition"?

the undergod wasn't neccessary before mccarthy, why is it neccessary after mccarthy? why can't ONE politician stand up for secularism?
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. also contrary to our whole tradition
freeing slaves
letting women vote
not beating up the irish

why, its just contrary to our whole tradition!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. The original Pledge did not refer to god in it
it was put in in 1954.
And the Constitution exists to protect the minority from the majority. The government does not have the right to use the word God in its pledges or on its monies if there are citizens of this country who are paying taxes who dont believe in a god . If the word God is not there, it hurts no one, and its not the govts place to demand we all think in God we Trust or to pledge to God. Im an american citizen, and I shouldnt have to pay taxes to the US govt if it demands I say in God we trust. People can believe , privately, any thing they want. Thats already established. They have all the freedom they want already to believe in anything they want.
They do not have the right to make this country into a theocracy and demand we all adhere to the govt condoning a god, just because they believe in one.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
37. Well said.
I'm giving away my age, but I remember saying the pledge before they added under god. Of course, it didn't bother me when the pledge changed, as I was only a kid and believed in God. Well, now I'm an adult and no longer believe, so I would like to see those words removed.
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Love Bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. I'd like to see those words removed, too
and I do believe in God. However, my belief is not threatened by removing "God" from the pledge. I believe in the constitution, too.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
44. Some religious people object to it
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 05:31 PM by struggle4progress
because it violates the commandment "You shall not hold The Name up to vain purpose." I can't imagine any more blasphemous use of religion than for political purposes.

<edit: for clarity>
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Then return the Pledge to its original form
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 08:00 PM by DinoBoy
The pledge was written as a ploy to sell more flags in the late 19th Century. It's original form was as follows:

I pledge allegience to my flag,
And to the Republic for which it stands,
One nation, indivisible,
With liberty, justice, and equality for all.

"my flag" was replaced soon after with "the flag of the United States of America" to make it more patriotic.

"under God" was added in 1954 because of McCarthyism.

"equality" was left out before the pledge was first published because it was far too liberal.

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a_random_joel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Here's an essay I wrote on it. Not to be vain, but it hits all points.
The Lion, the Witch and the Pledge

The Pledge of Allegiance is intended to unite Americans. A recent court decision ruled that the inclusion of the words “under God” in the Pledge is unconstitutional. This decision has proven to be extremely unpopular and has generated much controversy; however, the basic principles with which this decision was rendered are valid and reasonably applied. While the decision was based primarily on compliance with the Constitution, there are many other reasons supporting this judgement.
The history of the Pledge itself offers some insight. Surprisingly, the original Pledge did not reference God. Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, wrote the Pledge in 1892 to honor the flag during a quadricentennial celebration in the public school system. That Bellamy was a minister further underscores that the Pledge be a patriotic affirmation, not a religious one. Congress edited the Pledge in 1954, in response to the Catholic Knights of Columbus, in part because of anti-Communist fervor that gripped America during the McCarthy Era.
The First Amendment of the Bill of Rights reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” This statement guarantees religious liberty under the Establishment Clause, which holds that the government will not officially establish a state religion, and the Free Exercise Clause, which holds that the government will not interfere in religious practice. These clauses are the foundation of the wall separating Church and State, as defined by Thomas Jefferson:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. "(Andrew Lipscomb and Albert Bergh, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Vol. 16, pp. 281-282)

To understand the Founder’s intent, one must examine the historical perspective from which this unprecedented position was expressed. Previous governments, from the ancient Egyptians to the Romans (the model of our current Republic and also a state-sanctioned oppressor of a certain religious minority), and including the European Dynasties such as the English from which we proclaimed independence, have all claimed legitimacy granted directly from God, or the Gods. This Divine Right of Kings would be laughable in today’s America – imagine seeing a candidate’s television commercial proclaiming to be the Chosen One – but was the paradigm during the Founder’s time. Additionally, our Forefathers intended to avoid the religious divisions that led to such horrors as the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the many other state sponsored acts of war and oppression committed in a given religion’s name.
Many Americans equate a Democracy or Republic with “majority rule”. While the majority does elect our representatives, they are not necessarily responsible for the enactment of law. If such were the case, the Abolition of Slavery or Woman’s Suffrage might never have occurred. The Founders are clear about protecting the rights of all, particularly minority or unpopular views, after all, the majority does not require such protection. Engaging in commentary with a minimal understanding of our history and legacy is counterproductive and hypocritical. If people cannot stay informed about their own heritage, can they be trusted in matters of theology? If the words of the Constitution can be so carelessly misconstrued or disregarded, then what of the Bible? What protects today’s minorities is also what will protect tomorrow’s Jews and Christians from having to recite a Pledge “under Koresh”, should the Branch-Davidians ever become the majority. Are not tolerance and acceptance the goals of our great nation, and in the tradition of all faiths?
Having established that including the phrase “under God” is unconstitutional, there are several more practical reasons for removal that should be examined. Public school’s are governmental institutions funded by taxpayers, and as such cannot advocate a particular religious creed. The Pledge of Allegiance is mandated by law to be stated in the classroom, and therefore defies the separation of Church and State as it is currently expressed.
Children are notorious for distinguishing differences amongst each other, and this can lead to violence, harassment and intimidation. This occurs based on even minor differences such as clothing, hairstyles, or corrective lenses; and certainly has occurred because of major differences such as ethnic, economic or religious background. Proponents of the existing Pledge claim that children of alternate faith have the right to decline uttering “under God”. Unfortunately, this reveals to their peers a difference, which may be the catalyst for inappropriate behavior. No child should be forced to endure this! No harm would be done to our children by removing the phrase, consequently, the potential for harm to certain children exists by keeping it. Those who doubt that such negative actions can occur need look no further than former President Bush’s own public statement towards those with differing viewpoints: “No, I don’t know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.” (ATHEISM: Belief In No God, and No Belief In God. 10 June 2002. <http://www.religioustolerance.org>;)
As Americans, we are protected from proselytizing. We can turn Jehovah’s Witnesses away from our doors, openly disregard the Hare Krishnas at the airport, and God help a religious telemarketer. In the workplace, it is within our rights to report an overzealous associate to management, or sue an employer that pushes a religious agenda upon us without consent. Why do we not offer these same protections to our children?
Religion is flourishing in this country and will continue to do so. America prides itself on its diversity. Importantly, while the majority of Americans, roughly 75%, identify themselves as Christians, a quarter of the country are not. Atheist, Jew, Muslim, Baha'i, Sikh, Scientologist, Wiccan, and many others are equal members of society. Some of them would have no problem saying “under God”, others would. The burden is not upon a minority to justify their position or alter their behavior to accommodate the majority. The burden is on society to treat all members with equity. Furthermore, the so-called Christian majority is not a representative majority at all. There are several thousand registered Christian denominations in America, among the more common branches are the Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists and Mormons (to name a few); not to mention non-denominational Christians. While the basic ideologies of these brands may be similar, there are enough differences which have caused major conflicts in the past (or present if we look at the Irish conflict in the U.K.). Enough to keep a member of one sect from affirming allegiance to “one nation, under the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”.
Opponents of the Court’s decision contend that the phrase “under God” is a natural product of a religious country, and to deny these words is to interfere with religious expression. While the passion of this argument is to be respected, the logic is flawed. The United States is not a religious country; rather, the majority of people who reside here are religious. The right to express religious faith is vigorously protected: all are free to congregate and worship virtually anywhere, particularly at Church, send their children to Sunday or Hebrew school, or if unhappy with the public school’s role, may opt for a private religious school. Heaven forbid parents actually take an active role, and spend an hour or so a night with their children to discuss these issues. Removing “under God” does not impact any group’s religious rights.
Critics also state that removing these words interferes with the freedom of speech. However, the classroom is an exception allowing restriction of speech. Students are not allowed to arbitrarily express themselves, as it may disrupt the class and obstruct the other students’ ability to learn. A student cannot suddenly belt out Psalm 23, any more than they can interrupt the teacher to talk about the Bear’s game. Students who have such an overwhelming urge to express themselves to God can excuse themselves from class, or wait until break. Perhaps freedom of expression would be served just as well by allowing students to wear marijuana emblems or profanity on their clothing? It appears that these arguments are more about satisfying the parents’ need to advance a religious opinion, and not about protecting students’ rights.
Finally, it has been argued that “under God” has no real religious significance; God is just a word used to signify a higher power. Again we run into the problem that God is a Judeo-Christian term. What of Allah, or the Goddess? What of the eastern religions which do not worship a singular entity – Buddhism and Taoism? What of Shintoists and Hindus who revere multiple Gods? What of Atheists and Agnostics who choose not to believe, or are still trying to understand? What of those who remain undecided, choose to accept multiple sources of wisdom, or could care less? Those who would trivialize God as just “a word” are not in a very defensible position on this issue.
It seems rather ironic that those who would honor such a strong commitment to this nation would, in the same breath, so carelessly deny one of the fundamental principles upon which this country was founded. Separation between Church and State guarantees the health and security of both. To quote the “Father of the Constitution”, James Madison:
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together. "(James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822)

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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Takes the name of God in vain
WTF is that "Under God" supposed to mean anyway? I take it as some sort of claim to divine guidance. Reassure people that despite the fact that the nation murders, bears false witness, covets it's neigbors goods, hates instead of loving, avenges instead of forgiving etc; it's somehow still sanctioned by god.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. it was the 'sunlight' to the 'vampiric' communists
they believed the inherent goodness of the godfearing nation with its pledge with 'under god included' would cause any hidden communists to burst into flame if they recited the pledge.

no, seriously, they really were believing this nonsense (besides the burst into flames part). the mccarthyites thought it was like garlic or holy water against the red scare.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. Not very wise....
I don't care how many moot courts you do, performing in front of the Supremes with zero litigation experience is foolhardy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Ahhh man....
I don't want to pile on the guy. I just think he is doing a disservice to his cause.

Though you are correct, I believe the phrase is "God Save this Supreme Court" or something like that.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. People actually think "under God" was originally in the pledge
I had this argument with my mother-in-law who said the phrase should remain on grounds of tradition. Well if we want to be traditional about it, we should go back to the VERY FIRST pledge:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. you gotta love it. scalia really screwed this up for the fundies.
Even U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said the lower court's decision was "contrary to our whole tradition,'' a statement that prevents Scalia from hearing Newdow's case.

bwahahahahaha is all i have to say. maybe he can get a little duck hunting in during his time off.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. The Pledge...The kids...it hurts the kids!!!!
I live in elk grove california, Newdow has put our town on the map. Cruz Bustamunte also lives here so for the past year and half up-link news trucks troll our neighborhoods. I work here, drive my kid to school, talk to other parents and i have a newsflash for the rest of America that doesnt live here.....no one is even talking about it. From the media reports i see you would think that my town has the torches and pitch forks ready for Mr. Newdow...not true. Don't beleive the the hype, all of it's comes from the GOP and doesnt really reflect whats going on in Elk Grove.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Yes, that's true. In conservative Elk Grove, California,
it appears many people are more concerned about
the growing number of African American students
who are enrolling in public schools, rather than
whether their kids are allowed to say the pledge.

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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Elk Grove race issues that being ignored
yes Elk Grove has some big problems right now with race, at Laguna Creek high school there were 2 kids that planned on killing some black students, the parents claim....oh no you got it all wrong not my child. Of course one of the kids had a 6ft by 6ft swastika banner hanging in his room but his parents didnt know....um ok right. I moved here in part because i knew california had a whole bunch of everybody living here and like a moran i didnt think race was a big issue here, i was wrong. Instead of dealing with the real issues Dave gordon is wasting his time on this bullshit pledge dispute and encouraging the eagle forum to some to school board meetings.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yep, and don't forget the black students
who were attacked during the lunch
hour because the white kids didn't
like them playing their rap and hip-hop
music!
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
28. Sorry, but I think this is a b.s. issue
compared to everything else that's going on right now. It's also emotional and divisive, and a perfect talking point for the fundies to hang their hat on.

I couldn't care less if the words "under God" are in the pledge, and I'm a church-goer. I also think Mr. Newdow has a perfect right to pursue his case if he wishes. I just can't get too excited about it. Trouble is, the average American gets a lot more excited about this case than they do about the Bush family's crimes.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. I saw this guy at a debate last week...
I came in and it was already on and almost over but he is a very eloquent speaker for the godless American like me.

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Almost_there Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. Maybe I'm too into history, but...
I tend to think that the founding fathers of this country were far more religious than we ascribe to them. Benjamin Franklin's grave is maybe 200 yards from the Liberty Bell and 500 yards from Constitution Hall, and he was more than just a go to Church on Sunday kind of person. Maybe its because almost everyone then was running from religious persecution, and wanted to establish that freedom to practice any religion wouldn't be interfered with by the Federalist government, but, I really think they would find laughable the notion of starting a session of Congress without a prayer of guidance, ending a day without a prayer of thanks, or starting any meal without thanking God, whatever Church they may have attended.

I'm not sure why it is such a big deal to remember that this nation is so very young, but, it is also a society and a government founded, yes, founded on the principals of religion. Why was America formed? To escape religious persecution, to allow for freedom not FROM religion, but, freedom to perform whatever religion. (As long as it wasn't witchcraft or any of about 600 unacceptable religions.) But, I digress.

I have read numerous times where Thomas Jefferson is quoted and looked to, but, what does God mean in the Constitution? Well, it doesn't. There isn't a single mention about it, other than Jefferson's famous letter assuring that there is no official religion. But, remember that Jefferson was a very religious man, as were most people in the late 1700's early 1800's, and they actually had Church services in Congress Hall on Sundays. http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

I guess the point I am trying to dance around and make is let's not try and fake what the founding fathers said. They never said that they wanted God's name evoked for everything (the word God never appears in the Constitution, "The year of our Lord" does, but, let's just leave that as an anachronysm), but, remember that the seperation of Church and State doesn't say the government will remain Atheist. It simply says that it will not establish a religion nor prohibit the free exercise thereof.

And seriously, this is primarily an English posting board, right? Would Allah in English be "God"? And could David Koresh, if he were still around, consider himself "God"? Sure. Why not? It doesn't say "my God", or "Your God", or "Jesus", "Allah", "Buddha", "Yahweh", or anything of the like. It just says "God".

Just my two cents. I think the guy is whistling Dixie, not because he has a weak case, but, because he is a doctor who turned lawyer going before the United States Supreme Court on an issue that might be tossed out because he may or may not even have the right to sue on behalf of the daughter that he fathered by a born again woman that he never married and didn't at the time have custody of. Uphill battle all the way. Fight the good fight, I just don't think he has a chance.

Flame away, but, all I've seen is how no one will miss seeing "In God We Trust" on their currency, removing God from just about everything. But, I see it as a reminder of where this country came from. No one is forcing anyone to say the Pledge, feel free to omit what you like. No one is forcing you to go to Church, this one or that one, feel free to form your own. I think we are getting a bit hysterical thinking that "Oh no! It's those damn JEE-SUS lovers again!" I am not a fundie, but, flame away at me, I just think it is so disengenuous to forget what this country is founded on, and what freedoms we have.

~Almost

PS - I don't want to come across as some religious nut, I just fail to see the purpose in denying the past, pretending it didn't happen, pretending that the basis of a chunk of our laws don't come from the Bible. Dude, no one is forcing your daugther to say boo.
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. 3 points:
The personal religious beliefs of the founders are not relevant (if they were, I'd correct your assertion that Jefferson was very religious - he was a Deist).

Second, "under God" IS an establishment of religion.

Third, our laws are NOT based on the Bible. Someone has given you a very bad history lesson.
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Almost_there Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Really?
Well, I guess the "Under God" being an establishment of religion is opinion, depending on the Court and the person you ask.

I tend to disagree about our laws and where the folks of yore got them from. Even if we use the Magna Carta as the historical beginning of the Constitution, it dealt heavily in religion, even stating

"1. In the first place we have granted to God, and by this our present charter confirmed for us and our heirs forever that the English Church shall be free, and shall have her rights entire, and her liberties inviolate; and we will that it be thus observed; which is apparent from this that the freedom of elections, which is reckoned most important and very essential to the English Church"
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/medieval/magframe.htm

So, if the Constitution is borrowed from the Magna Carta, written in 1215, I still think that religion played a large role in setting forth a framework. Again, I'm not pushing anything, I am simply stating that I see the past as something you can't take bits and pieces of. Back in the 1700's, religion played a central role in the Federal Government, and while they never established a "state religion" nor did they stop any religion, I just see it as a major part of what government was then.

But, we are allowed to disagree, and I'll let my history profs know what a crappy job they all did.
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. How could "under God" not be an establishment of religion?
It assumes a belief in God.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. cool, disagree, but let's try this...
can we pluralize and feminize and de-capitalize 'under God' and still retain the same effect? in your assessment it should be so, right? so we should start using the term 'under goddesses'? wouldn't that work?

honestly i believe your heart might be in the right place but it's just like the other guy on the cspan show to debate newdow (who was also quite polite). it's trying to take the argument from the issue of separation of church and state, where gov't *cannot* mandate anything to respect to religion - and switch the argument into a philosophical debate. it's not philosophical, it's an issue of how does a secular nation (and that's what we are constitutionally - of this there is no doubt) reconcile it's lingering mistakes of the mccarthyism witch hunts. that's the 'alpha and omega' of the whole issue. divining the ponderings of the forefathers is wholly irrelevant.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. (As long as it wasn't witchcraft or any of about 600 unacceptable religion
So I guess your definition of Freedom of Religion is based on whether you accept a person's religion or not. :crazy: I find little there resembling Freedom of religion. It is also Freedom From Religion as my Religion is not yours and I don't wish for yours to be forced upon me. My Gods don't really care for your God because he is so much a God of War and a Jealous God. His own words. He is quite jealous of my Gods because they believe in Peace and Prosperity. Why would you wish to force your God upon me if you believe so much in Freedom of Choice?
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a_random_joel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. I don't suppose I could bother you to read the essay above?
Would that be too much to ask?

I don't mean to float my own boat, but I think it clearly and comprehensively lays out the case against the words "Under God."
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malachi Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
40. Removing "under God" doesn't go far enough.
I'd like to see the Pledge of Allegiance done away with completely. Kids don't know what it means and could not care less. It has always given me the creeps, no different than the Nazis or communists in Russia proclaiming allegience to their country, watching school kids or anyone else salute the flag.
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