Islamic world is violent, authoritarian & undemocratic says Carey

[emad]

Friday March 26, 2004
The Guardian

The Islamic world is a violent, authoritarian and undemocratic place, according to Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury.
In a speech in Rome yesterday, Dr Carey denounced moderate Muslims for refusing to condemn the "evil" of suicide bombers, urged Islamic theologians to take a more critical approach to the Koran, and lamented that "no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries".

"Throughout the Middle East and North Africa, we find authoritarian regimes with deeply entrenched leadership, some of which rose to power at the point of a gun and are retained in power by massive security forces," he said. Turning his attention to suicide bombers, he said: "Sadly, apart from a few courageous examples, very few Muslim leaders condemn clearly and unconditionally the evil of the suicide bombers ... We need to hear outright condemnation of theologies that state that suicide bombers are martyrs and enter a martyr's reward."

Dr Carey's words, reported in the Daily Telegraph, come as the present Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, leads a seminar of Muslim and Christian scholars in New York today. His call for Islamic theologians to be as rigorous in their studies as their Jewish and Christian counterparts is unlikely to please his successor. But not all of Dr Carey's speech was critical. He said that Islam and democracy had proved compatible in countries such as Turkey, and admitted that "Muslims are not bereft of brilliant minds". However, his acknowledgment that "they have much to contribute to the human family" did not impress Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, who said he was "saddened" by Dr Carey's comments.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1178545,00.html


Hmmmm...."violent, authoritarian and undemocratic": sounds like the BFEE since Shrub slimed his way into unelected office in 2000....

[LiberalVoice]

1. What an A$$!

Too bad he forgot to mention that alot of those violent "Islamic" countries are in the pockets of the American Govt. and that they are kept in power by us.

My personal opinion is that offcourse the muslim people of this world should condemn suicide bombings and acts of terrorism. But, from those peoples perspectives why should they, when no blame is put on the governments that kill them.

[IndianaGreen]

2. "violent, authoritarian and undemocratic" is the history of Christianity

Ask the billions of victims that were murdered, tortured, ethnically cleanse, enslaved, or forcibly converted for the greater glory of Mel Gibson's hero in his latest movie.

:puke:

[Roaming]

29. Well, at least in the case of Christians doing those things, it was

AGAINST the teachings of Christianity. Unfortunately, the Koran directs faithful followers to perform "jihad" and forceable conversions through war.

[IndianaGreen]

31. The Holy Qur'an has not such thing!

The word "jihad" means struggle, as in inner spiritual struggle, and not "holy war." It was the Western press that used "holy war" as the meaning of "jihad" in the days of European colonialism.

But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever....

(Quran, 4:57)

[Roaming]

33. Here are some quotes

These are all quotes directly from the Q'uran. As to whether most Muslims follow these quotes, thank goodness, no, but it is obviously the source from which the radicals get their inspiration.

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given ...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9: 73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

The holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) laid down the following rules (as found on p. 188-189 of Ibn-E-Majah, Vol. 2) to conquer the world:

When you meet an enemy (infidels) give them three choices:

1. Invite them to embrace Islam (which actually means acknowledging the Lordship of Muhammad).

2. If they do not accept the proposal, then they must surrender and pay tribute, and

3. if they reject both alternatives, then fight them mercilessly:

The holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) said "It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter...Eat what you have taken as booty; it is lawful and good." (The Spoils, 8: 65)

[Just Me]

34. Taking anything out of context is a sign of abuse,...

,...by all those who use religion for purposes of division or self-interest.

[xchrom]

3. i guess western colonialism

and corporate raping of the middle east has nothing to do with the present crises.

[Go Eagles]

4. half the story of course

Of course does he discuss how the west has had a role in creating and supporting many of these undemocratic and authoritarian regimes and radical Islamic movements in the interest of the petruelleum status quo and fighting the Cold War. He probably also neglects to mention the role that Isralei occupation and expansion has played in fanning terrorism.

[seventhson]

5. substitute Christian for Muslim

and what are our troops in Iraq except suicide bombers of a sort? It is suicide to go there and they are bombing innocent civilians?

This guy is a HUGE asshole.

[madrchsod]

6. he should have included

all fundamentalists in all the world faiths. he is right, the voice is intolerance is what is heard today. political leaders wrap themselves in religion to hide their intolerance for anyone who questions their authority and use religion to hide the failures. the voices of moderation are being drowned out by state sponsored fundamentalism across the world. humanity suffers when we allow this to happen.

[The Stranger]

7. Sounds like he doesn't want to talk about the American part of his Church

splitting over the issue of gay and lesbian ministers.

[ixion]

8. Riiiight... and modern day Christians are so peaceful and open-minded

NOT! :eyes:

[billhos]

9. Carey is plainly wrong

"no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries". just look at the suicide vest. i do not believe that that is a fair chracterization of all Muslims. But the mass consciousness is so backwards that the statements made by Carey are generally correct. While I do not profess or practice Christianity i find putting it in the same level as Islam is offensive. And by the way if Muslims societies are 1,000 years in the past due to "imperialisim and colonialism" with out it they would be 2,000 years behind.

[SemperEadem]

15. so what if no great invention has come from Muslim countries?

Yeah, but I'll bet you can get 2 lungs full of clean, fresh air in Iraq, something you can't do in London.


Invention somehow has become a mark of accomplishment or something? By whose leave? What does invention have to do with greatness? We've invented destruction devices and are using them on Iraq right now because we want to steal their oil and that somehow makes our country greater because we can do this?

I don't believe anyone who is sitting up in an ivory stone building all his life smelling old book glue is qualified to pass judgement on the worthiness of countries which don't participate in the pollution machine that is industry.

[mobuto]

17. And then maybe not

Iraq facing massive problems of pollution, environmental destruction, says U.N.


Friday, April 25, 2003
By Naomi Koppel, Associated Press

GENEVA — Iraq faces severe pollution and other environmental problems as a result of more than two decades of war, international sanctions, and mismanagement by Saddam Hussein, the United Nations said Thursday.

"A major threat to the Iraqi people is the accumulation of physical damage to the country's environmental infrastructure," the U.N. Environment Program (UNEP) said in conjunction with the release of a study of Iraq.

"Many environmental problems in Iraq are so alarming that an immediate assessment and a cleanup plan are needed urgently," said Pekka Haavisto, chairman of the study.

http://www.enn.com/news/2003-04-25/s_4078.asp

Remember it was Saddam who drained the marsh, it was Saddam who deliberately poured millions of barrels of oil into the Persian Gulf, it was Saddam who lit the wells on fire. Hardly an environmental record to stand on.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. Read much history, or do you just go on gut feelings?...

Islamic Contributions to Science and Math
<http://www.netmuslims.com/info/contributions.html>

Table of Contents

Sciences
Scientific Inventions
Astronomy
Mathematics
Medical Sciences
Hospitals in Medieval Islam
Political Science
Geography, Travels and Exploration
Industrial Progress
Commerce
Agriculture
Libraries
Painting
Architecture - Part 1
Architecture - Part 2
Fine and Minor Arts
Muslim Social Order - Part 1
Muslim Social Order - Part 2
Economic System of Islam
Muslim Philosophy

[billhos]

35. did you read the site you just referred too?

Almost everything it listed as accomplishments of Islamic society was over 800-1,000 years ago. Seems too me that this site proved the point Lord Carey was making. there is no doubt that long ago Islamic society was a center of learning. But this center was taken apart by Islamic fundamentalists of who are the spiritual and cultural ancestors of todays Muslims. They left a very stagnant back wards culture.

[cap]

10. it's really not good to have Christian religious leaders

criticizing the Muslim world right now. The last thing we all need is for any jihadi to read into Dr. Carey's remarks a justification for a crusade.

That being said, there are some good points that Dr. Carey is raising. Some liberal Muslim thinkers have studied the demise of Islam's golden age and attribute it to the change of a critical, rational-based Islam that fostered the creativity and achievements of that era to a more mystical, non-rational based Islam. These thinkers believe that the non-rational mindset has stagnated the modern Muslim world. The jihadi mindset is an extreme form of this thinking. Just as critical thought helped reinvigorate the Western world during the Renaissance and counter-Reformation, many liberal Muslim thinkers believe that a reinvigorated, critical thinking movement within Islam would pull the Muslim world out of its stagnancy. The Muslim world is the big loser in globalization. There are no factories built there -- they are net importers of many basic necessities.

The Muslim world tends to close ranks and defend its own -- rather than saying, Yes, we do have some miserable leaders who are taking advantage of us, (especially ones that have been supported by the US). They need to be saying "We demand justice" (there is a huge portion of Islam that is an appeal for social justice). Osama Bin Ladin's appeal is based in part on this cry for justice. If you want to neutralize Bin Ladin, eliminate the root causes for injustice within these societies.

A Western religious leader can not make this critique in the current environment. The best thing that he can do is to encourage inter-faith understanding and tolerance. That is what Dr. Carey should be talking about -- not the faults of another religion. That should be left for Western secular groups to work on and to do so in the spirit of increasing justice throughout the Muslim world. Liberal Muslim thought should be encouraged.

[BiggJawn]

11. Hey, Carey! What's that line about "a splinter in your neighbour's eye"?

You got a fuckin' bridge timber in your own, sport!

Come to Murka and spend some time listening to the "Even Discourse" that is AM T"Talk" radio...
Then tell me your X-ian faith is so lilly-white and pure.

Oh, yeah, that's right, go kill 1/2 a village, then fall on your knees and ask forgivness, and you can sleep like a baby....

[cprise]

12. Sounds like he's bemoaning the current state of Islam

But from the way its mentioned in the article, he seemed rather blunt and insensitive. He should qualify his position better.

[mobuto]

14. No, I don't think he's bemoaning Islam

I agree the remarks were not all that well crafted. But I think his problem is with the Islamic World, which has not had an Enlightenment and which still, to an alarming extent, subscribes to medieval notions of human society and behavior. There's nothing wrong with Islam, its with Islamic society. And he's absolutely right that moderate Muslims, who can be as progressive as anybody else, are complicit to the extent that they do not speak out against the evils carried out in the name of Islam.

[SemperEadem]

13. Ok, clark, then explain the characteristics of Christian fundamentalists

and their penchant for being violent, authoritarian and undemocratic which, by the by, is equalled to anyone who is on fire for Islam.

There is no difference, as my Lord Archbishop can look to the history of his own church in his own country of England for that glaring answer.

[private_ryan]

16. before you jump on him

is he right or wrong? Take a look at several states and see for yourself.

[Vladimir]

18. So you agree with the following quotes...

"no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries".

"Muslims are not bereft of brilliant minds"

Patronising racist shite. Particularly the second one... it would be funny if it didn't come from an infantile prick like Carey.

V

[mobuto]

19. Correct: Muslims are not bereft of brilliant minds.

How can anyone argue with that? I know a number of brilliant Muslims. Look up "bereft" in a dictionary if you're still have trouble understanding that sentence.


"no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries".


While I think the point is argued inelegantly, is this not true? He's saying what is so obviously the case -- that the Islamic World, once the center of knowledge and learning, has fallen into an intellectual backwater because of its inability to deal with modernity.

[Vladimir]

21. Oh come on

you must know I was referring to the context with the second quote. How do you think it would play Kerry saying 'blacks are not berift of brilliant minds' in Zimbabwe?

V

[mobuto]

26. ???

The guy, who was criticizing Islamic societies, was trying to make clear that his claims weren't racially motivated. So now you're saying they were racially motivated precisely BECAUSE he says his remarks weren't racially motivated. Am I missing something?

[private_ryan]

24. how about these quotes

"Islamic world is violent, authoritarian & undemocratic"

[DrWeird]

25. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[private_ryan]

32. it still doesn't change the fact that those statement are true

generally speaking of course.

[Roaming]

30. Unfortunately, those statements tend to be true. Just look at

how women are treated in Saudi Arabia, for example. They are not even allowed to drive cars.

[NashVegas]

22. He Is Wrong

In his claim that moderates aren't doing enough. The moderates are doing all they can. The problem is they don't have enough outlets and don't get enough publicity. Not here, because it suits us to protray Islam = evil, and not there, because in some cases they're putting their lives at risk.

In the past year, Irshad Manji has been gaining some attention. She'a a Canadian journalist pushing for reform - you may have seen her on some of the talking heads' shows.





from the accompanying story:

"At least one multicultural organization has cancelled her as a speaker because they're afraid she'll offend Muslims."

http://www.goacom.com/news/news2003/sep/msg00085.html

[bicentennial_baby]

28. Irshad rocks!

She has a website too!

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/

[Just Me]

20. Is this guy the reincarnation of Joachim of Fiori,...

,...who, nearly a millenium ago, said the end of the world was near and resurgent Islam was the instrument of evil. Ole fundie Jerry Falwell says the same thing. Who are these wackos? Can't we put them into mental institutions or something?

[legin]

27. We're starting to get competitive in britain

you lot over there think you lead the market with your Jerry Fallwell's and Pat Robertson's, well now we got ex-Archbishop Dr Carey.

Personally, without wishing to come over all patriotic, I think Dr Carey is a better class of arsehole than what you got over there.

:P

[leesa]

36. I'm so glad the bombs we drop on future "terrorists" aren't violent

What a bigot!

[sadiesworld]

37. Hm.

"violent, authoritarian and undemocratic"
1. Islamic world: yes
2. US: worse every day
3. UK: not so much, but troubling signs
4. France: not so much
5. Canada: wish it were warmer