India slams Pakistan over WikiLeaks charges

[Turborama]

Source: AFP

NEW DELHI — India has slammed Pakistan over reported links between Islamabad's premier intelligence agency and the Afghan Taliban that were revealed in the recent leak of secret Pentagon files. Reams of material leaked to Internet whistleblower site WikiLeaks accuse Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) -- the nation's most powerful spy service -- of secretly helping the Afghan insurgency.

"Sponsorship of terrorism, as an instrument of policy, is wholly condemnable and must cease forthwith," an Indian foreign ministry spokesman said late Tuesday.

India has long accused Pakistan of failing to take credible steps to crack down on Islamic militant groups operating on its soil such as Lashkar-e-Taiba, blamed for the 2008 attacks in Mumbai which left 166 people dead.

"The utilization of territory under Pakistan's control to provide sanctuaries for recruiting and sustaining terrorist groups, and to direct terrorist activity against neighbours, must stop," the spokesman said.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jogPtTDaA79sn-PeZOWwA4ygEpkw

[cosmicone]

1. Pakistan is a little, tinpot, insignificant country

and as it cannot compete with India in anything, it takes it as a defeat of Islam by Hinduism when it has nothing to do with religion; and then tries to gain importance via terrorism, duplicity and asslicking of China and/or the USA to get some baggage handling fees to get its military's latest toys.

This is first and foremost the mistake of the brits to have nefariously partitioned India and creating an eternal wound and then the fault of Americans to continue to supply the Pakistani military and military dictators billions of taxpayer dollars.


Why not take out Pakistani nukes (either voluntarily or forcibly) and then cut off all aid to Pakistan until it balkanizes on its own?

[elleng]

2. 'Insignificant?'

You're from WHERE?

[cosmicone]

4. It is insignificant ...

It has no economy other than baggage handling duties for the US and Chinese...

No Nobel laureates, no billionaires, no major companies, no major industry ... it has no culture or history of its own ... A string of military dictators, no democratic institutions.. nothing.

Terrorism is the only significant thing Pakistan has ever accomplished.

[Turborama]

17. I think you need to look up the dictionary definition of racism. n/t

[cosmicone]

20. Pakistanis are the same race as I am. n/t

[JI7]

28. and arabs muslims and israel jews are related, doesn't mean they can't be bigoted against each

other

[JI7]

29. and arabs muslims and israel jews are related, doesn't mean they can't be bigoted against each

other

[cosmicone]

32. I am not bigoted against Pakistani people...

I only despise the terrorist infrastructure of the ISI and Pakistani military.

Pakistani people are fine. I have been to Pakistan and shown great hospitality by my friends there.

Unfortunately, the military egos and the desire to conquer India and make it an Islamic country drives the establishment there as they reminisce in the glory days of the 11th through 15th centuries.

[OhioChick]

34. "I am not bigoted against Pakistani people....."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4444248#4446493

[Turborama]

36. WOW!

WTF? How come this has been allowed to go on for so long?

This behavior is totally against DU's rules and ethics.

[cosmicone]

37. Show me one place where I had shown any hate against

the average people of Pakistan? It was only spirited criticism of Pakistan the terrorist state.

Furthermore, I wear my Indian-American badge openly ... and pretty much everyone has seen your anti-India and anti-Indian rants on this board. However, I neither save nor use links as ammunition as you do. Perhaps you were trained by the ISI (j/k)

Peace

[closeupready]

41. I don't have the link but the time the news item was posted about the terrorist bombing

at a cinema in Lahore, I think - you called it 'cool'.

That is hatred against Pakistanis.

[Posteritatis]

59. Nice hair-splitting. (nt)

[closeupready]

39. A-fucking-men.

n/t

[JVS]

53. Whoa!

[ChromeFoundry]

55. I never did get a decent response to all those quotes there. n/t

[ChangoLoa]

62. I've been in Pakistan more than once, moving from Baluchistan to the Karakoram

And I've never heard anyone talking about conquering India (how ridiculous would that sound?)... just about "freeing" Kashmir (which is BS too). OTOH, in India, I've heard many hardcore hindu nationalists talking about "purifying" the Indian subcontinent from Islam and citing Mein Kampf with emphasis.

[Turborama]

35. We only have your word on that

You don't even have a profile and your username is nothing to go on.

This is a public internet discussion board available to be read by anyone who has an internet connection and there is a strong possibility that a majority of Pakistanis who read what you wrote would see it as being racist.

You are saying they are inferior, the dictionary definition of racism refers to superiority.

Your posts cast a nasty bigoted shadow over the reputation of Democratic Underground.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4444248#4446493

[cosmicone]

38. Wrong again.

Perhaps the prejudice is in your mind. Pakistanis and Indians are from the same DNA ... in fact, almost all Pakistanis are indistinguishable from Indians -- perhaps because they were Indian hindus before being forcibly converted to Islam under mughal rule.

I don't claim any superiority in terms of intellect or competence over any other race/ethnicity/gender/religion/sexual preference etc.

I do however feel superior to Pakistani establishment which has used terror systematically as a weapon. Do you really support that? Does anyone?

[closeupready]

40. No, your prejudice is apparent to everyone here. Many won't post in response

because your hatred is irrational. If it weren't, you'd see me and others talk it out. But you speak in admiration of things like terrorist bombings in Pakistan cinemas, etc.

[cosmicone]

45. Like I stated, I harbor no hatred ...

I don't admire terrorist activities anywhere ... all I stated in reference to terrorist attacks in Pakistan was either "Pakistan is reaping what it sowed" and "Pakistan's chickens are coming home to roost." Neither of these statements is factually incorrect, is it?

By the way, I am very pleasantly acquainted with two of Pakistan's foremost columnists and extremely intelligent minds, viz. Ayaz Amir and Irfan Hussein (Mazdak) who share my views.

Anyone can play the "bigot" card when faced with valid criticism of a policy or a government. Of course you have seen criticism of Israel invite the "antisemitic" adjective .... this is no different.

Peace.

[closeupready]

47. So you know some columnists.

So what.

[Turborama]

42. I have no idea whatsoever where you are really from

But when you proclaim that Pakistan is insignificant and then make a list of what you think makes the country of Pakistan insignificant you are proclaiming that you think you are superior to Pakistan. That is the definition of racism.

I repeat, this is a public internet discussion board available to be read by anyone who has an internet connection and there is a strong possibility that a majority of Pakistanis who read what you wrote would see it as being racist.

[cosmicone]

44. So one cannot state objective criteria for significance?

From a geopolitical perspective, wouldn't you say Brazil is more significant than Burkina Faso or Mauritania or China is more significant than Laos? There is no prejudice or bigotry involved and like I said, it is all in the reader's mind.

The objective attributes I suggested (and not everyone has to agree with them) make Pakistan feel insignificant vis à vis India and whis is the reason it engages in terrorism as well as the export of it to gain some significance on the international level.

<shrugs>

[Turborama]

50. You just ruined your own argument by adding a whole heap of subjectivity into your last sentence

How do you know that Pakistan even "feels insignificant"? You speak for the whole of Pakistan do you or is that just what's in your mind? (rhetorical question, btw)

Since you have made it quite clear how much you hate Pakistan and why you think India is so much more superior it is clear that you are not talking objectively.

ETA Nice try, though.

[closeupready]

26. As you can see from post #4 from this thread, you're probably wasting your time by

trying to talk sense to that one.

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3958409

Since "Pakistan is a cancer" like "Palestinians are cockroaches" or whatever.

[Prometheus Bound]

57. Whoo-hoo! A classic! If a country doesn't have billionaires it is NOTHING.

Cosmicone, you are an embarrassment.

[ChangoLoa]

60. Pakistan has no culture or history of its own??!!! Are you just being provocative?

The history of the people living by the Indus started more or less at the same time than Mesopotamia's history or the Nile's. Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq and India are the cradle of sedentary civilization.

Where are Mehrgarh, Harappa, Mohendjo-Daro and Taxila?
What about Alexander's empire and the Greek kingdoms in Gandhara (around today's Peshawar)?
Wasn't the same Peshawar one of the capitals of the Kushan Empire?

Hinduism started in the shores of the Indus, isn't that right? Almost all the rivers mentioned in the Vedas are in today's Pakistan.




...and please don't even try arguing that since they became muslims, they lost the legitimacy of their own history.

[varun]

64. Pakistani historians think that their history started with the Islamic Invasion of the Subcontinent

Just pick up any history textbook in Pakistan.

Anything predating Islam is considered insignificant and uncivilized.

Brainwashing starts early in the madrassahs and schools in Pakistan.

[ChangoLoa]

65. Sorry but that's absolutely not true.

The experience I had there showed me that Pakistanis are particularly proud of their pre-Islamic history. And even if some islamist historians weren't, that doesn't take away a iota of their past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Hasan_Dani

"Dani remained engaged in excavation works on the pre-Indus Civilization site of Rehman Dheri in Northern Pakistan.<5> He also made a number of discoveries of Gandhara sites in Peshawar and Swat Valleys, and worked on Indo-Greek sites in Dir.<6> From 1985, he was involved in research focusing on the documentation of the rock carvings and inscriptions on ancient remains from the Neolithic age in the high mountain region of Northern Pakistan along with Harald Hauptmann of Heidelberg Academy of Sciences, University of Heidelberg.<7> In 1990–91, he led the UNESCO international scientific teams for the Desert Route Expedition of the Silk Road in China and the Steppe Route Expedition of the Silk Road in the Soviet Union."

[varun]

68. I have Pakistani friends who tell me about the distorted history.

Here's an article from a Pakistani newspaper

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/nadeem-f-paracha-schools-out-ss-01

"...In an extensive study conducted by Nayyar and Ahmad Salim, in 2002, the following four themes emerged most strongly in history textbooks in Pakistan: that Pakistan is for Muslims alone; the Ideology of Pakistan is deeply interlinked with faith; one should never trust Hindus and India; and students should take the path of Jihad and martyrdom...

...Some time after Pakistan’s defeat in the 1971 war, Indo-Pakistan history was replaced with Pakistan Studies, whose sole purpose was to define Pakistan as an Islamic state. Students were deprived of learning about pre-Islamic history of their region. Instead, history books now started with the Arab conquest of Sindh and swiftly jumped to the Muslim conquerors from Central Asia.


Nayyar and Salim have pointed out the following examples of the expression of hate in post-1971 history textbooks: that: Hindus have always been an enemy of Islam; Hindus worship in temples which are very narrow and dark places, where they worship idols; Hindus declared Congress rule as the Hindu rule, and started to unleash terror on Muslims; Hindus always desired to crush Muslims as a nation; Gandhi was as an extremist..."

The results of this education are bearing fruit now. Pakistan is terrorism central.

[OhioChick]

30. Isn't is obvious? n/t

[customerserviceguy]

3. We don't have the will to fight a WWII style war anymore

and we haven't since WWII. I doubt that India feels that way, and when a truly threatening regime takes over in Pakistan, the Indians will do what is necessary to preserve their society, including getting rid of Pakistan's nukes.

[kenfrequed]

7. Uhm... actually

We would first need a REASON to fight a WWII style war. Something resembling an actual justification with an ACTUAL enemy attacking us would be a nice start.

Without rage agaisnt fascism from the left, submarine attacks, the threat of actually dangerous fascism abroad, and the bombing of pearl harbor, do you really think even 'the greatest generation' would have had 'the will' to fight in WWII.

Please spare me these absurd notional groin checks and at least look at history in context.

[customerserviceguy]

11. We judge all wars after they have been fought

If we won decisively, we come up with reasons why we should have done so, even if it included the use of nuclear weapons. If we lost, or fought to a draw, we come up with reasons as to why the war was wrong.

If we had gone medieval on the Afghans, future historians would invent reasons as to why we were right to do so. You don't see a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking done on Grenada, do you?

[closeupready]

16. You do if you are familiar with Noam Chomsky or Alexander Cockburn.

Your argument is precisely identical to the one used by neocons to go into Iraq - "history is written by the victors" as they and their ilk were fond of saying.

[customerserviceguy]

19. Just because I come to the same conclusion

by different means, doesn't mean I'm a neo-con. Chomsky and Cockburn are only known to a relative handful of Americans, they're not terribly influential with the vast majority.

Victors always do write the history books. And all's well that ends well. Those truisms were known long before there were ever neo-cons. As a species, we always have to justify everything we've ever done, especially when it works out for us.

[kenfrequed]

23. Err..emminent contradiction

The implication that I am wonking a war in retrospect, after making the wonkiest statement about whether or not anyone has the "will" to go to war is painfully ironic.

[closeupready]

9. I'm sure Pakistan is fully prepared for Indian aggressiveness. And

India knows that. So until India is willing to kill themselves, I don't think this will happen.

[customerserviceguy]

12. Long before Israel and its Islamic neighbors

go after each other for the final battle, I expect India and Pakistan to have it out with each other.

That day may be sooner than you think, even though I think it might be long overdue.

[closeupready]

15. You believe this based upon what, the Book of Revelations?

No offense, but I think that's silly, paranoid and defeatist. The reality is hostility between the two states has seen far worse moments than where they are now. That indicates relations can improve. It's just a matter of political will and necessity.

[customerserviceguy]

18. Not the any discredited religious tome

but on history books. The edges of the Islamic empire have long had alternating periods of calm and storm. When nothing comes along to change things, equilibrium results, but any time there is a substantial alteration of either the Islamic societies on the frontier, or their non-Islamic neighbors, tensions rise.

Given the economic boom that India has come through, and the nuclearization of Pakistan, I'd say another round of that historic conflict is overdue. But your optimism is enchanting, I guess if Europe could get tired of fighting within itself, the rest of the world might follow. The question is: Are they tired of it yet?

[cosmicone]

22. Like the last 4 times when Indians kicked ass and even

dismembered Pakistan to form Bangladesh?

Remember the humiliating defeat of Pakistan then when Gen. AAK Niyazi surrendered with 91,000 Pakistani soldiers?

Or how about the kicking of Pakistani butt in Kargil war when Pakistan duplicitously invaded under the leadership of the terrorist-in-chief Musahrraf while PM Nawaz Sharif was signing peace treaties with India?

The reality is that without aid from the US and China, Pakistan will die.

[davepc]

8. Well thats why the US needs to give Pakistan billions in aid money to prop them up.

India wont counterbalance itself!

Nothing better then US foreign policy.

We want India to be successful and powerful, but not TOO successful and powerful so lets support Pakistan.

[closeupready]

10. You want a state that once allied with USSR a powerful one? I don't.

Especially one like India that has NOT signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty - a distinction shared with only two other states - Israel and Pakistan.

[indio55555]

24. India would do it in a heartbeat.....

As soon as Pakistan signs it.

[closeupready]

25. In your alternate fantasy universe?

:rofl:

[cosmicone]

33. India would never sign the NPT unless

India is elevated to a "nuclear weapons state" group under the NPT regime. With 1.1 billion people and the rising economic power, India has earned the distinction.

[closeupready]

43. And that's precisely why India's complaints fall on deaf ears.

If you guys aren't going to sign it unconditionally, then US support for Pakistan will remain firm and unwavering.

[cosmicone]

46. India and Pakistan are not equals

India is 6 times bigger in population, 93 times bigger in GDP and has NEVER exported nuclear technology unlike Pakistan.

India, with its billion plus people expects to be elevated to the nuclear weapons state status which is what US-India Nuclear Cooperation Treaty and the NSG waiver did de facto.

[closeupready]

48. All I know is that India must be checked, and Pakistan is best placed to do that.

We know from the Cold War that India will pursue its interests even at the expense of the United States. And that's unacceptable. At least if you are part of a government commissioned to protect US interests. So no, India will never see Pakistan balkanized or absorbed. Get over it.

[cosmicone]

49. And Pakistani ISI is doing a fine job of killing the very Americans

who are funding it.

I suggest you read wikileaks.


At least India has a secular, multicultural, multi-ethnic democracy with strong democratic institutions and freedom of the press --- those are manifestly American values.

India has far more things in common with the USA than any other developing country on the planet.

[johnroshan]

58. So..

Every country in the world should bow down to US "interests"?

By that argument, every dumb military or CIA intervention that was made by US was legitimate because they were in US "interests". Try to look at things from the other perspective too.

@Cosmicone, Your point that only Pakistan supports terrorism is a naive stand. India supported the terrorists in Sri Lanka, India has done a lot of subversive activities in Tibet, and the countries on its eastern borders. US has supported and continues to support a record number of terrorist activities around the world. This will continue as long as this system of capitalistic greed runs the economy. Don't act surprised when defecation hits the oscillation in the near future.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

67. And who to trust more than a nuclear Islamic republic?

:rofl:

[JI7]

51. India didn't ally with the USSR, they were neutral during the cold war

while i think cosmicone is bigoted . i don't see how you can say pakistans support of terrorism in india and elsewhere is ok.

[JVS]

54. I wouldn't call them neutral. They did that flirting with both sides act that Yugoslavia's Tito did

Neutrality suggests disengagement.

[closeupready]

61. And if I had said that or even implied it deliberately, I would agree with you.

I did not however. Terrorism is not legitimate, now or ever, by anyone, anywhere. Not by Pakistan, either. And those who supported it in Bombay should be condemned by civil people everywhere.

There is a self-contained context here to my posts, which thoughts I would have expressed more delicately or more accurately were I not to have been responding to you-know-who.

Peace. :)

[varun]

63. NPT is a joke

signatories like China have been selling nuclear weapons and technology to N. Korea and Pakistan openly.

[closeupready]

66. Then why doesn't India sign, and make Pakistan look intransigent, if they don't, too?

Doesn't seem like a joke. Nor to Israel, who won't sign it.

[JI7]

13. Pakistani Culture is similar to Indian Culture

they are the same people

[cosmicone]

21. They are the same country originally..

Pakistan comprises of 4 of India's states.

[JI7]

27. and bangladesh was once part of pakistan and before that india

[cosmicone]

31. Yep

Bangladesh as well.

Bangladesh was the first step in Pakistan's eventual balkanization as envisioned by Indira Gandhi and Sanjay Gandhi.

[iandhr]

5. WikiLeaks

they did not tell us anything we did not already know.

[ronnie624]

6. I agree.

I'm wondering about the real motive behind the 'leaks'.

[EFerrari]

14. It may be too soon to draw hat conclusion. nt

[JVS]

52. There's "knowing" and then there's having it flung wide open and thrown in your face.

You'll find that a lot of things we "know" are known in such a manner as to be easily ignored.

[varun]

56. If Mexico had been supporting terrorists to bomb NYC

I'm sure USA would have done more than just "slam" Mexico.