Safety regulators subpoena 'black box' data from Toyota truck involved in fatal crash

[Omaha Steve]

Source: LA Times

The subpoena is issued to William Rosenbluth, an expert in black boxes, who obtained the event data recorder from the family of victim Christopher Eves.

By Ralph Vartabedian, Los Angeles Times

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has issued a rare subpoena to obtain "black box" data from a Toyota Tundra truck that was involved in a fatal collision in 2007.

The subpoena, a copy of which was obtained by The Times, was issued to William Rosenbluth, an expert in black boxes, also known as event data recorders. Rosenbluth obtained the recorder from the family of Christopher Eves, a Washington state man who died after his vehicle struck a tree in 2007.

Investigators found alcohol in Eves' blood, but his father, a former law enforcement official, contends that much about the accident is unknown.

Ron Eves, the victim's father, said he had unsuccessfully attempted to get Toyota to evaluate the data recorder after the accident and that the company had refused until congressional hearings this year, when Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-Wash.) requested the company's assistance in downloading the recorder.



Read more: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-0817-toyota-blackbox-20100818,0,1666004.story

[Lance_Boyle]

1. My bet is on driver error - again.

Nevermind the alcohol. :eyes:

[Omaha Steve]

2. Black box error from the story

The results, taken by Toyota in early April, indicated that the truck was traveling at roughly 75 mph, but somehow slowed by 177 mph after hitting the tree.

Remember Toyota is the only car maker with a propitiatory black box (like ES&S voting machines). This shows a data error. What other errors don't we know about. If there is an electronic problem with the system, it has already been shown the box doesn't record ALL the data.

[Nihil]

3. It had just hit a tree at something in the order of 75mph ...

... I'm not terribly surprised that it suffered "a data error".

Some of the sensors would have suddenly encountered severe damage,
possibly destruction and/or partial/total disconnection, are you really
that amazed at anomalous data recordings during & after the impact?

:wow:

Given that these things are *still* primarily diagnostic agents for
the vehicle's systems (i.e., NOT a hardened, well-padded device like
the aircraft flight recorders from which the media nicked the name),
I'm quite impressed that they get any information at all from the
damn things!

:shrug:

(Edit for typo)

[Omaha Steve]

4. So the flawed data recorder info shouldn't be used to clear Toyota either?

Since you consider it flawed. I believe the US commission used black box data to clear Toyota in over 50 acceleration cases.

[Nihil]

5. Not of any problem that occurred *after* the impact, no.

I think the "foot on the accelerator" vs "magic" debate tends to focus
on the events *before* the impact though ...

:shrug:

[Omaha Steve]

6. Any flawed or not 100% dependable material is not ADMISSIBLE in court

So Toyota may not be able to use it's best defense, the PROPRIETARY black box!

[Nihil]

7. Well that's f*cked all of your witnesses for a start ...!

At least half of the people who claim that it was a "Toyota miracle
acceleration problem" (to get them off a "senile driver problem" charge)
are a damn sight less than 100% reliable!

The fact that most of the rest were found (like this one) to be under the
influence of alcohol (or other drugs) sort of undermines your "100% reliable"
argument before it even gets as far as a court ...

"Black box" data (before the impact) is far more objective and reliable
than any old "please let me off from a dangerous driving charge" story ...
and that applies regardless of which company produces the "black box" in
question. When said pleas are made *after* a high-publicity case for one
foreign manufacturer, damn right I'm cynical about their "dependability".

[Omaha Steve]

8. Witnesses?

Documents! I guess you haven't been following the news on Toyota here in LBN very close. A high ranking US Toyota office wrote "We have to come clean on this!". They retired him. Several technicians wrote of unintended acceleration in cars they themselves experienced as far back as 2003. One blamed SOFTWARE.

And the recall for floor mats and gas throttle assemblies is real too. Or do you think that didn't happen either?

Another reason to take Toyota to court.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/28/AR2010012803971.html

By Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 29, 2010

Toyota Motor began facing complaints of runaway cars years ago, but the company did not install "brake override" systems in those vehicles, even as several other automakers deployed the technology to address such malfunctions.

The brake override systems allow a driver to stop a car with the footbrake even if the accelerator is depressed and the vehicle is running at full throttle. The systems are an outgrowth of new electronics in cars, specifically in engine control.

"If the brake and the accelerator are in an argument, the brake wins," a spokesman at Chrysler said in describing the systems, which it began installing in 2003.

Volkswagen, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz also install such systems in at least some of their cars, the companies and industry experts said, some as far back as 10 years ago. General Motors installs brake override in all of its cars in which it is possible for the engine at full throttle to overwhelm the brakes.

[Nihil]

9. Witnesses. As in the people claiming to have been braking when they accelerated.

As in the classic fraud attempt over in California.

As in the woman who started her car, went straight over the road
and crashed in her neighbour's driveway.

As in the people who panicked whilst driving an unfamiliar hire car.

As in the elderly drivers who probably didn't know what day it was
but were "certain" they were pressing the brake and not the accelerator.

All those reliable people.


> And the recall for floor mats and gas throttle assemblies is real too.
> Or do you think that didn't happen either?

You are moving the goalposts again.

Yes, I know that the recall for the floor mats was real.
Yes, I know how many countries turned out to have insufficiently skilled
people installing floor mats that the recall became necessary (and wasn't
*that* a damning indictment on the intelligence of the installer FFS!).

Yes, I know that the throttle assembly recall was real.
Yes, I know how many car companies issue recalls for genuine quality control
failures too - and I'm glad that they do as it is better to take the PR hit
of a recall than to have the bean-counters and the board write off the cost
of hushing up the deaths as "acceptably low" (*cough* Ford *cough*).


I know that there have been genuine problems on Toyotas.

I really *don't* have any kind of difficulty admitting that.

I *do* have difficulty with people who uncritically blame the manufacturer
for a problem only if the manufacturer is Toyota and who will swear black is
white to defend incompetent drivers only if the manufacturer is Toyota.

If you view those as acceptable attitudes then we will just have to "agree to
disagree".

:shrug:

[Omaha Steve]

10. I'm not defending those that pushed the wrong pedal

But a Toyota technician showed the event recorder did not capture brake info during his unintended acceleration in 2003. That means these cases you point out could have been telling the truth and the recorder failed to capture that info.

And since Toyota is the ONLY car maker with a proprietary black box, I don't trust what they tell us to begin with. We already know Toyota has failed in the past to comply with court orders to provide subpoenaed info etc.

Yes many car accidents are the drivers fault every day. Yes some of these cases may have been driver error. But there is beyond reasonable doubt that many weren't. And it will be years before the court system and the US Government sort it out.

So I believe we have some common ground.



I know that there have been genuine problems on Toyotas.

I really *don't* have any kind of difficulty admitting that.

I *do* have difficulty with people who uncritically blame the manufacturer
for a problem only if the manufacturer is Toyota and who will swear black is
white to defend incompetent drivers only if the manufacturer is Toyota.

If you view those as acceptable attitudes then we will just have to "agree to
disagree".

[Nihil]

11. Fair enough ...

> And since Toyota is the ONLY car maker with a proprietary black box,
> I don't trust what they tell us to begin with.

That is a good point too - if Toyota are the only ones like that then
yes, they need to ensure that "what they tell us" can be independently
verified rather than just "trust us".


> So I believe we have some common ground.

Agreed. Have a good weekend! :hi:

[Omaha Steve]

12. U 2