Howard Dean: NYC Mosque a "Real Affront"

[Freddie Stubbs]

Source: CBS News

Former Democratic presidential candidate and Vermont governor Howard Dean, a hero to many liberals, has called efforts to build an Islamic community center two blocks from the site of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks "a real affront to people who lost their lives."

"That site doesn't belong to any particular religion, it belongs to all Americans and all faiths," he said.

Dean, speaking on New York's WABC-AM radio, said he would like to see a compromise on the issue - one that includes moving the Islamic center to another site. He adds, however, that "people should be able to worship as they see fit."

Dean argues that though the backers of the project are "trying to do something that's good" and integrate Muslims "into the fabric of the United States," the issue is "very delicate" and there should be a compromise "so that everybody is accommodated by this."

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014057-503544.html

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. What an idiotic (and disappointing) thing to say.

And since when does building the community center mean the area "belongs" to Muslims?

[uppityperson]

162. I agree. Here's the short video posted elsewhere on the Cordoba House

Sorry MrDean, I very much disagree with you.

http://www.markfiore.com/political-cartoons/watch-ground-zero-mosque-islam-ramadan-cordoba-house-animated-video-mark-fiore-animation

[Jansen]

2. Dean's got it wrong.

I don't find myself disagreeing with him often but this time.. yeah.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Dean understands politics.

He's right about the politics of the situation. It was stupid for Obama to comment on it, because it isn't within his purview and democrats in swing districts must now distance themselves from it.

[DFLforever]

9. As President of the United States and head of state

definitely outside of his purview to defend the rights of US citizens.:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. Nothing that Obama does will change whether it is built or not.

Nor will it prevent the lawsuit which will occur with either outcome.

What has done is damage his party and play into the hands of Republicans who want nothing so much as to distract governance with another Terri Schiavo/Elian Gonzalez/Gulf swim/AF1 haircut.

[aquart]

69. It is never wrong to defend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

(Even when it's gun rights, for instance.) I WANT my president to stand up for our constitution. Even if I disagree on a particular issue of it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. Every land use action is a balancing act between constitutional rights...

... and the interests of the community.

This community center is absolutely no different in that regard.

[No Elephants]

93. When religious discrimination is the only "interest" of the community in stopping a project,

the issues are very different.

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. In that case, the courts will sort it out. n/t

[DonCoquixote]

147. So..

Let's say some people wanted to build a Museum of Gay rights in an area, but of course, the people are offended, the property values are going down, and the community says "we don't what the Gay building here", is it then ok to cave in to the mob? Funny, the Dean people want to primary Obama in 2012 would have said it was not ok, I do not know who the jackass that made this anti muslim statement is; he is not the Dean I knew.

[lumberjack_jeff]

173. Land use law is well defined

Google is your friend. There are lots of online resources.

A proposed land use which detrimentally changes the character of the neighborhood can be denied.

The Dean you knew is one who knows how to win elections.

[DonCoquixote]

185. dean I knew

He was the one that was supposed to stand for principle as opposed to winning at all costs; if I want someone that is "pragmatic" I would have voted for Clinton.

[Cal Carpenter]

175. Isn't it funny

that constitutional rights aren't seen as being in the interests of the community?

I mean, regardless of the issues at hand on this thread, I find it striking how easily such a comment can be made.

[lumberjack_jeff]

179. Anyone who's ever spent any time as an elected official understands the potential for conflict.

If the right to worship as you see fit were absolute, zoning would be illegal.

[No Elephants]

95. Please see Reply 94.

[FBaggins]

134. Nothing in Dean's statement fails to defend the constitution or the BOR. n/t

[No Elephants]

94. Defend them against whom? AFAIK, no one claims the Muslims do not have a legal right

to build this center on their private property. In nothing I have seen, heard or read, does a single politician or pundit, Democratic or Republican or third party, says they have no legal right to build near ground zero. Not a one.

The battle has not been over what the Imam legally CAN do. On that non-controversial issue, Obama agrees with everyone else, from Pat Buchanan to Howard Dean.

Rather, the battle has been what the Imam SHOULD do, despite his Constitutional (and local zoning) rights. And the only controversial issue is the issue Obama said he will not speak to, one way or the other.

I am not saying he should or should speak to it. I am just saying that EVERYone is saying they have a Constitutional right to build there. So claiming that Obama is defending their Constitutional rights doesn't fit the facts.

[Kweli4Real]

23. Maybe the Obama Critics on this Site ...

Should send out a memo to President Obama listing when he should and when he shouldn't. I would have thought that the President commenting on and taking a position something small ... like ... say ... THE US FREAKING CONSTITUTION would maybe be something us democrats/liberals/progressive might want him to comment on, regardless of the politics of the situation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. You thought wrong.

The courts' purpose is to look out for the rights of minority groups. The president serves, and gets policy done, at the pleasure of the majority - a majority which is jeopardized.

[Kweli4Real]

63. You're Kidding right?

In a democracy it is the court's purpose to look out for the rights of minority groups, but it is the commission of every official to protect and defend the the US Constitution.

And BTW, defending the US Constitution happens to be "right."

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. If Fred Phelps wanted to build a church at the Murrah building.

I wouldn't use their cause to fall on a sword based on my inviolable belief that religious liberty requires anyone to build a church any specific spot they choose.

Let NYC and the courts sort it out.

[No Elephants]

99. The imam who wants to build near Ground Zero is far from the Muslim version of Phelps. So your

analogy fails. And, with all due respect, what you'd lift a finger for is irrelevant, as is what I'd lift a finger for.

Also, there is nothing for courts or NY to sort out. Everyone, from Pat Buchanan to Howard Dean to Bloomberg to Paterson to Obama, agrees on the legal issues.

[No Elephants]

97. Nope. The Constitution REQUIRES the President to take the following oath, spelling it out verbatim:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

[Turborama]

101. Best reply to this whole faux outrage about what the President said that I've seen so far

Thanks.

[No Elephants]

110. This is not about what Obama actually said. It's about what the media is PRETENDING he said.

Please see Reply 94.


I was not either defending or attacking Obama. I have no position on it, one way or the other. Not yet, anyway. I just know a lot of misstatements are flying around and that's never good (IMO).


I was simply replying to Lumberjack's parroting of a-hole Gonzo's position--only courts decide Constitutionality. It's simply wrong.

[Turborama]

114. What the media is PRETENDING he said is the faux outrage I was referring to n/t

[DonCoquixote]

148. UGH

Wait a minute, isn;t this the same bs they use to deny gay rights?

[lumberjack_jeff]

172. Don't pay attention to current events?

WRG to gay marriage, the courts are the ones who are setting things right.

The politicians who won the most votes are the ones who chose those judges.

[No Elephants]

96. Please see Reply 94.

[chimpymustgo]

49. Sometimes it's not about politics...but right and wrong.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. I'm not quite old enough to have voted for McGovern.

Losers don't make policy. If you're going to make enemies over issues of right and wrong, pick fights over things within your purview. Pick fights by doing, not by talking.

[No Elephants]

98. Obama won the election. This is his time to make policy.

"Pick fights by doing, not by talking."

First, tTell that to the guy who got the folks in the colonies to revolt against a King for the first time in history with his "Give me liberty or give me death speech."

Even brutal dictators willing to shoot anyone in sight have to win some people to their side with words, if only the military.


Secong, Obama is not "picking fights. He is simply stating the obvious: the imam has a legal right to build. NO ONE disagrees with that. See Reply 94.

[No Elephants]

92. All swing districts are chock full of bigots?

[lumberjack_jeff]

170. You're calling Gov Dean a bigot? n/t

[karynnj]

116. Obama clearly understands politics as well - otherwise he could never have

won the nomination from the Clintons, the then two most powerful Democrats in the party.

(Note - I am not saying that Dean does not understand politics. Anyone who got as close as he did, also does.)

[DonCoquixote]

146. stupid

Excuse me, but do you honestly think the GOp would allow him NOT to comment on it, especially since they convinced America he is a Muslim? Come on.

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. "Allow"?

As far as I know, the president isn't a muppet.

[DonCoquixote]

186. Muppet

Look, all the media has to do is ask the question, if he fails to answer, they insert their own. If you are genuinely naive on this, nothing can help you.

[Kelvin Mace]

154. This constant subjugation of what is right, moral and eithical

for what is politically expedient is what drives me further from the Dems each day. Every time I hear explanations about why doing the wrong thing is the right thing to do, I move one step closer to just deciding that Americans should just get the government they keep begging for, 19th Century Britain, the one Dickens chronicled so well.

[movonne]

4. Maybe he is trying to not look like professional lefties...

[jtuck004]

5. I suspect Dean's remarks are a real affront to people who lost their lives for freedom,

religious and otherwise. Do they not count because it wasn't in our lifetime?

Bad words, Deano

[X_Digger]

30. +1 n/t

[becxx]

86. Oh honestly

Members of my family have fought and died in every major USA conflict since the Revolutionary War. And I am not the least bit offended by Dean's comments. In fact, I think that his idea that Ground Zero be secular is a good one. I like secular government buildings, secular national monuments and I would like a secular Ground Zero. It is not about religion -- is is about principles that transcend religion. Please give poor Dean a break. I agree with him.

[jtuck004]

88. Of course it's about religion. That's the argument the opposition

is using to keep it away from there. There were muslims who died in the building, and they deserve as much consideration as anyone else.

Frankly, it's not at Ground Zero, and I think everyone should butt out of what someone builds in a Burlinton Coat Factory 2 blocks away. I think it should be there. Maybe if it had been there 20 years ago there would be more understanding, and maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

The people that blew up the building were criminals, these people aren't. I think they should build there and they have my support, and Dean was wrong to say what he did.

Oh, yeah - if it's not about religion, why does this cartoon express it so well?

You are entitled to your opinion.

[becxx]

155. Funny cartoon

I like the cartoon -- funny. I still don't like getting religion and politics mixed together in a situation such as this. I get very sick of hearing people fight and argue about religion. Sometimes I think folks are just looking for things to fight about and if religion did not exist, they would find something else.

Great cartoon.

[No Elephants]

102. Ground Zero is secular and building a Community Center 2 blocks away won't change

that. A mosque is four blocks away. Always has been. No one is objecting to the Greek Orthodox Church that will be near Ground Zero (though, being a fierce advocate of total separation of church and state, I do object that the Port Authority, a quasi-governmental entity is giving the GO the land). So, yes, it is very much about religion. the facts (if you know them) and the rhetoric make that crystal clear.


This is about whether 1.4 billion people, many of whom were born and raised in NY, should be smeared because of the 911 attackers. It's bigotry.

Btw, Ground Zero is not government property an we have plenty of national historic sites that are religious.

[No Elephants]

103. Self Delete. Dupe

[ProSense]

6. Think Progress transcript.

Dean suggests ‘compromise’ on Park 51: No point doing ‘something good’ if met with ‘enormous resistance.’

Glenn Greenwald

Certain things are disappointing and surprising even for the most hardened cynics. Hearing Howard Dean -- the former liberal standard-bearer -- join Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin by saying the following is definitely one of them:

<...>

UPDATE: After hearing Dean say this, I wrote on Twitter: "Please: nobody ask Russ Feingold what he thinks of Park51 - really couldn't stomach hearing him say it should move - difficult race or not." Thanks to amites for pointing out that Feingold -- in an extremely difficult re-election battle in a purple state -- has already spoken out in favor of the community center remaining right where it is. Just as impressively, Alexi Giannoulias -- the Democratic nominee for Senate in Illinois (for Obama's old seat) who is also in a very close race -- came out and strongly supported Park51 as well. So those two stand in stark and impressive contrast to Dean. And see this Ann Tenales cartoon suggesting a new campaign ad for Harry Reid.

No one, in particular the President, should hide from defending the Constitutional rights of all Americans. Everyone is also entitled to their opinion, including their opinion of the President weighing in.

Still, glad to know the President defended this group when the noise was to drown them out and deny them their Constitutional rights.

[Egnever]

32. thank goodness there is a voice of reason on DU

"No one, in particular the President, should hide from defending the Constitutional rights of all Americans. Everyone is also entitled to their opinion, including their opinion of the President weighing in."

Perfectly said. Thank you for your wisdom.

[No Elephants]

104. As to Obama, please see Reply 94. As to Dean, he's "merely wrong."

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Oh, Howard, why?

I don't know about the Goddam politics of it, but I believe Obama was right to speak as he did.

[eleny]

8. I repsectfully disagree with Dean

[ozymandius]

10. Why have any opinion at all?

It's America. Any turbulence is a natural phenomenon.

[knixphan]

28. Zactly-

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. Doesn't that principle apply to Obama as well?

Last I heard, approving land use applications in NYC isn't one of his jobs.

[No Elephants]

105. Just FYI: Giuliani said this a.m. (Today Show), no NYC land use approvals were necessary.

According to The Ghoul, the Imam voluntarily went through the drill anyway.


The original WH position was exact what you suggest--it's for NY. I don't know why it switched. I'm not sure if I agree with the switch or not. Maybe it was a time to either remain silent or go big to lead, as he did with his race speech after Wright's sermons hit the fan during his campaign. He attempted this time to take a mid position, but the media keeps pretending he said more than he said and people keep falling for the media's trick. (See Reply 94.)

[lumberjack_jeff]

139. It was arguably more necessary for him to make the race speech...

... because he's black.

So now, pollsters think it appropriate to ask if Obama's secretly a Muslim. "20% say yes, news at 11".

[EmeraldCityGrl]

11. "Including Muslims."

Conveniently left out of his quote.

I agree with Dean. Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't always make it the most compassionate
thing to do. Suggesting a compromise is worth considering. This has become a pissing contest for many.

[obxhead]

20. Would a Catholic be asked to compromise?

[EmeraldCityGrl]

26. Probably not.

Most people don't find the Catholic Church as offensive as I do.
I would much prefer a mosque in my neighborhood than the
Catholic Church.

Do I think Dean would ask the church to compromise under
a similar highly emotional issue? Yes, I believe he would.

[obxhead]

29. Probably not.

That is the exact reason why Dean's statement makes no sense. We have a Constitution. It must be obeyed. If we fail to do so, regardless of whose panties get tied into knots, then we have lost EVERYTHING that this country stands for.

If a Catholic church is acceptable, then a Mosque must be equally acceptable for this country to maintain its foundation.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

40. Clarifying his position...

"It won't upset me," Dean said, "except I think it is a missed opportunity to show some flexibility... I don't believe all this nonsense the right wing is putting out about radicals and all that stuff. I take the congregation at its word that it is a moderate congregation trying to heal the wounds of 9/11. But the best way to heal the wounds is not to have a court battle, but to sit down and try to work things out."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/dean-stands-by-mosque-rem_n_687049.html

I couldn't agree with him more.

[obxhead]

44. I can disagree completely.

The best way to heal wounds.....

Well lets see. We lost how many in the 9/11 attacks? We lost how many troops in pointless wars that we started?

We have killed many innocent Muslim people abroad since 9/11. I can agree there are wounds, but it's a two way street.

[Better Believe It]

62. Sit down and work things out with who .... Glenn Beck?

[No Elephants]

117. Sorry, Dean does not know what he's talking about.

First, what "court battle?" Under both our Constitution and NYC land use laws, the imam has an absolute legal right to build the Center on the forme Burlington Coat Factory site, which he acquired before 911, btw.

Despite that, the imam voluntarily went through a time consuming, costly NYC approval process he was not required to go through. Everyone had a chance to have his or her say during that process. Mayor Bloomberg support the Center. There is NO legal issue that could possibly be litigated by ANYone.

Second, sit down with whom? Every anti Muslim bigot in America?


third, resolve how? By changing his religion and building a YMCA?

[No Elephants]

119. "Compromise?" How do you compromise when hatred of your religion is the only issue?

People are not saying the proposed building is ugly or too tall, or parking is inadequate or we don't want no stinkin' swimming pool. They are saying Muslims should not be allowed to build ANYthing near Ground Zero (even though their mosque is four blocks from Ground Zero.) Other religions, fine. We'll even give them land. But Muslims? NO!

Why" Because 19 people who were were Muslims--19 of 1.4 billion Muslims--flew planes for reasons that had nothing to do with Islam. You can't "compromise" with bigotry of that magnitude.

[TomClash]

43. Or any other religion? nt

[obxhead]

46. Yes, any other religion as well.

I picked Catholic simply because it is the dominate religion of the US.

[TomClash]

47. But certainly not in New York City where the "Mosque" is being built nt

[No Elephants]

118. What do you think is the dominant religion in NY?

And since when in America do we decide that someone's religion disqualifies him or her from using his or her land as local law permits?

[TomClash]

161. There is no dominant religion in NYC

But if I had to pick one it would be Judaism.

Of course, I agree that religion has nothing to do with whether you can build a building.

[JonLP24]

125. There is a Catholic church

within a similar radius as the community center to WTC.

[No Elephants]

Please see Reply ##s 102 and 109.

[TomClash]

163. I don't think you've grasped that I agree with you nt

[No Elephants]

115. Self delete. Dupe

[No Elephants]

109. Port Authority is giving the Greek Orthodox the land to build closer to Ground Zero.

I have not heard anyone making a flap.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4506811#4508024


Does that answer your question? (Yes, I know it was only a rhetorical question. I wanted to prove with facts that your assumption was dead on.)

[No Elephants]

107. I disagree with Dean. With bigotry, doing something good is ALWAYS met with

resistance and not giving in every time bigots resist very much does have a point.

[Metta]

12. Oh, for Pete's sake, Howard. Snap out of it.

We've already had our political followers, er, leaders, er, followers compromise the Constitution. Sad.

[humbled_opinion]

13. Thinking Compassionately

Who gets hurt if they do build it there? - Many 911 victims families say they will be emotional hurt.

Who gets hurt if they don't build it there? - No one.

A. Build it somewhere else.

[emilyg]

60. Yes.

[Scarsdale Vibe]

78. American Muslims get hurt if they don't build it there.

I guess we're supposed to be sensitive to the feelings of bigots, and not sensitive to the feelings of Muslims in America who see how much their fellow citizens despise them.

At this point, if the community center isn't built, it's basically America's way of saying "Fuck You, We Think You're All Murderous Extremists" to all Muslims.

[humbled_opinion]

108. That is a cynical view...

For many this is not about bigotry no one is talking about not allowing Muslims to practice their faith. This is about senstitivity and compassion. I would rather be compassioned to fellow human beings that may be emotionally scared by building this the Muslim community will not be hurt if they decide to build it elsewhere in fact that will be seen as a bridge building effort. I think everyone needs to look at both sides and not staunchly stand on one side or the other.

There is still hope.

[No Elephants]

112. No, Scarsdale's view is the compassionate one. Yours is a very one sided view.

[humbled_opinion]

156. Oh I see so your saying siding with people

9/11 victims families that have said this building would cause them personal emotional pain is less compassionate then siding with a religious viewpoint that no one doubts has some fundamentalists in its midsts, who would use this building as a launching point to cause more emotional pain for all the victims of 911 you portend that is the compassion side? OK ....

Side Note Fuck All Religion I will not side with supporting anything that has its roots in relgion christian, Muslim, Buhdist, whatever they all worship imaginery beings but I am to believe that your side is compassionate...

Give me a break...

[alarimer]

189. I personally do not care that their feeling would be hurt by this.

How long do we have to continue tiptoeing around them? Their feelings do not trump doing the right thing. But the feelings of the "911 families" is by no means monolithic. Only the right wing pieces of shit among them are making this a big deal and right wing pieces of shit like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrinch are using these people to generate a wedge issue.

[No Elephants]

111. How "compassionate" of you to decide for Muslims whether they will be hurt or not.

Obviously, they care very deeply about building it near Ground Zero or they would have caved long ago.

[JonLP24]

126. Many 911 families say it shouldn't be moved

[DonCoquixote]

152. who gets hurt if they dont'

Oh, how about a bunch of new Yorkers (who just hapen to be Muslim) who know that NYC will approve strip clubs (which there are), bars, and other buildings near GZ, but will not let them build a community center?

How about the people that know that the Right wing will spin this into all sorts of victory, using this to shut down places like, oh, abortion clinics, LGBT houses, and other things because he will have allowed people to use the "it offends me" excuse!

Geesh, I thought Dean was supposed to be the principled one beyond compromise, guess not. But there are some people that will say anything is bad because they get their jollies bashing the President.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

174. Muslim-Americans because bigotry won't allow them to build there.

If you haven't noticed, there are anti-mosque protests across the country. So this concern for the feelings of 9/11 families is bogus.

When they say Muslims can't build a mosque near Ground Zero, what's to stop them from denying Muslims to build a mosque anywhere else in America?

[TomClash]

14. Boo

Many will remember this when other faiths cry because they are singled out for some affront.

[bitchkitty]

15. DAMN. I can't believe Howard Dean, of all people, feels this way. n/t

[frylock]

16. disappointing

[GodlessBiker]

17. Clearly a brain fart.

[obxhead]

18. And Dean goes under the bus. Hell, bet DU even stops it

to reverse over him just to be sure.

I'm shocked, truly shocked. How can Dean of all people demonstrate so well how to shove ones own head so deeply up ones own ass.

With "friends" like these we have in the Dems who the fuck needs an enemy. :(

[wellst0nev0ter]

48. I'm Happy He's Under The Bus

He's kow-towing to bigots. He's dead to me. End of story.

[obxhead]

50. He's not dead to me.

He's done more for the Dem party than Obama can ever even speechify on.

He's dead wrong on this issue though imo.

[Loki]

19. Progress was never made by making decisions

based on whether we might hurt someone's feelings. Women would still be chained to a home, controlled by their husbands, unable to inherit property or vote. Slavery would still exist and segregation would the the rule of the day. Civil Rights - forget that. Prohibition, now that would be interesting...no beer or alcohol because it offends those church folks. I don't think we have people capable of making the hard decisions any more. I look at other countries like Rwanda who went through a terrible genocide and through reconciliation they have tried to heal those terrible wounds. We don't have the guts to confront our bigots and haters. There was a mosque three blocks away from the World Trade Center and it was built BEFORE it was and no one has had one word to say about that.

[bergie321]

21. "it belongs to all Americans and all faiths"

Except apparently Muslim-Americans?

I never knew that people got this riled up about former Burlington Coat Factories.

[Scurrilous]

22. What an arse.

:thumbsdown:

[davidinalameda]

25. thank you Governor Dean!

glad to see him come out against this

[Hissyspit]

35. Yeah.

Doing exactly what Osama bin Laden would want us to do has got to be a good thing.

[davidinalameda]

39. so Osama doesn't want a mosque/community center/whatever

at Ground Zero either?

[Posteritatis]

41. Not one run up by a Sufi, he sure as hell doesn't. (nt)

[Hissyspit]

42. No, he wants us to suppress the rights of Muslims

to freely practice their religion, thus confirming that we are the enemy of Islam. Great Jihadist propaganda.

And it's a twofer. We act like a bunch of scared wusses all around, with not enough spine to defend our own high principles. He wants us to hypocritically shame the memory of Muslim Americans who perished in the 9/11 attacks. All great propaganda to show how evil we are.

Did I really have to explain that?

[mbperrin]

100. Well said. The moment the department of Homeland Security was

created, Bin Laden got what he wanted, and we lost.

We lost individual freedoms by the handful; we lost the right to live in a peaceful environment; we lost and continue to lose trillions in drag on the economy by the direct and indirect costs of the "war" on terror.

[davidinalameda]

132. what rights are we suppressing

as people have pointed out, there is already a mosque in that area

[Hissyspit]

149. Oh, please.

There's a limitation in the First Amendment on number of mosques in private property due to 'sensitivities' and political expediency?

[davidinalameda]

157. who is taking away their rights to build this

I believe that all the appropriate governmental bodies in NYC have signed off on it

but it also begs the question, if this is purely a freedom of religion issue, why do any governmental bodies have to approve the site

[Hissyspit]

159. Public pressure based on bigotry and ignorance

Is trying to take away their rights. I wasn't saying specifically that the gov't was trying to stop it. I was talking about the principle - the principle that many politicians are more than willing, apparently, to concede to the bigoted and ignorant, thus proving the point in my original post.

[davidinalameda]

180. so everyone who opposes this is bigoted and ignorant?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

76. No he doesnt

Hatred of moderate Muslims gives bin laden a big fat recruiting tool.

[emilyg]

61. +10

[Starbucks Anarchist]

81. Glad to see you reveal your bigotry.

[No Elephants]

113. You've taken the anti-Muslim position on this on every thread. Not anti Center, but anti-Muslim.

That Governor Dean has also taken the wrong position on the Center does not vindicate you. God never said only one person can be wrong on any given issue.

[AsahinaKimi]

31. Sorry Dr. Dean, but I disagree..

And I am very disappointed with your statement.

[democrank]

33. I disagree with Howard Dean on this one.

[Jim Sagle]

34. I think he's right. And I think he's trying to defuse a situation that's not so black and white as

so many seem to feel. I think there's a middle ground between Atlas Shrugs and Palestine Chronicle, and I think he's found it.

[No Elephants]

120. Exacty what middle ground are you talking about in practical reality? Please see Reply 119.

If calling a 100% legal Community Center an "affront" because it's not a YMCA or YMHA, but built by Muslims, is a middle ground in America, even the friggin' Puritan Pilgrims would be shocked--and they got here long before the Framers of the First Amendment were a gleam in their respective Daddy's eyes. Please see Reply 119

[keroro gunsou]

36. dear doctor dean:

the only affront i'm seeing is the morons that are using this issue as a means of making national political hay when it's a fucking local zoning issue. it's a distraction from the bigger problems and a perfect wedge issue for the republicans, who thrive on this sort of small town, small minded bullshit. it's a fucking community center that happens to be sponsored by and built by muslims. the fact that there is an area for a prayer room doesn't make it a mosque any more than a cross makes my apartment a church.

people really need to get a grip. there is more important crap at stake than this local zoning issue. to be applied fairly under the constitution, they (the zoning board) should give the space to the muslim group. if they get singled out, any religion has a ready-made excuse to bray and wail that they might be next.

pardon my language, but i'm cranky today....

[No Elephants]

121. No worries. Facile bigotry at DU makes a lot of us cranky.

[keroro gunsou]

160. not what i was cranky about

my financial aid for school got yanked cause i've taken too many credits... got enough to bail out the fucking banks and fund 1.5 wars (iraq is .5 since we've still got a token force there), but god forbid someone wants to retrain for a new job. oh that's right, education is a pussy liberal policy.... and i really hope i don't need to use the sarcasm widget....

[Martin Eden]

37. I hope he said it's a "real affront" ...

... "to bigots and morons" :mad:

[MineralMan]

38. We either have freedom of worship in this country or we do not.

It is a binary issue. Dean is wrong. That is all.

[No Elephants]

123. Not an issue here. Please see Reply 94. The only issue here is

whether, being perfectly free to build this Center at the Burlington factory site, the imam should voluntarily choose to do otherwise. It's a public relations/public opinion issue, not a freedom issue. I am free to say "Fuck you, c**t" in modulated tones to every nun I see as I walk through my very Catholic neighborhood. I just choose not to.

So, the only issue is not freedom, but wisdom, public relations, etc. Obama has refused to speak to that issue. Dean says compromise is in order. As to my opinon of that, please see Reply 119.

[Billsmile]

45. Yeah

Especially the Muslims who lost their lives on 9-11.

[Igel]

51. Dean has a 1st amendment right to free speech.

The issue is whether this is something he should say or not.

A lot of people seem to think he shouldn't have said it, that it was improper however much it is defensible as his right.



The backers of Park51 have a 1st amendment right to free religion. There's nothing forbidding them from building on the site.

A lot of people seem to think they shouldn't build it, that it is improper however much it is defensible as their right.



Oddly, many of the people who seem to think that merely saying that the Park51 folk should not build, saying that they should show due sensitivity (or whatever) is an abridgement of their 1st amendment rights.

Oddly, many of the people who seem to think that Dean's wrong for saying that the Park51 folk should not build; he must show duesensitivity (or whatever) by either supporting the project or keeping his trap shut. This, however, is not an abridgement of his 1st amendment rights.

Apparently the anti-illegal-immigrant folk aren't the only people who really have a problem with the 14th Amendment.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

75. LOL this has nothing to do with Dean's first amendment rights

He can say whatever he wants and people who disagree are free to say so. I don't think people wish he had kept this thought to himself. I think they wish he truly held the oppoosite view.

[pmorlan1]

52. Shame on you, Howard.

It's a strange day in the neighborhood when I agree with Ted Olson and disagree with Howard Dean.

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/08/18/olson-mosque/

[BlueMTexpat]

53. I am a loyal Deaniac but I respectfully disagree with Howard Dean about this.

Apparently, he hasn't read the Salon article. He's probably been too busy working for issues and people in close campaigns that really matter instead of getting involved in this hate-monger manufactured controversy.

Siding with vicious hate-mongers is not a good place for him - or for anyone else, for that matter - and I laud Obama, Feingold and Ted Olsen.

Just because I respect and admire someone does not mean that I will agree with them all the time, nor will I approve of everything that they do. Especially when they are wrong and do not stand for the principles on which this nation was founded.

[JDPriestly]

54. We would be better served if we used this occasion to persuade

people to be tolerant.

It is possible that Dean knows something about the funding for this project that we don't know. Maybe it is being funded by one of the Saudi princes or by Iran or something.

[No Elephants]

124. So what if it were? Has anyone objected to our last several Presidential libraries

being near them? Saudis were big contributors (which raises a real issue if your son or your wife later runs for President *cough* Poppy, *cough* Bubba).

If the Center is to be what the Imam says, what difference does it make who funds it?

And now, we've come to the real purpose, IMO, of all this controversy: make it so toxic that the imam will be unable to raise the money.


Except for that quibble on my part, your post, IMO, is the best on the thread. This was both a teaching moment and an opportunity for true leadership. Didn't happen.

[AlbertCat]

55. How far away is far enough? And how do we determine that?

This is fucking nuts! (and I'm an atheist. Religion just fucks up everything it touches!)

Dems ARE wimps!

I am seriously considering staying home this Nov. I give up. I just don't care anymore.

This country died in 2000 when the Supremes chose the president.

I wish Denmark wasn't so friggin' cold.

[liberal N proud]

56. Howard needs to read the Constitution

1st Amendment.

Sorry Howard.

[No Elephants]

122. Nope. He said they have a 1st Amendment right. Please see Reply 94,

And 119.

[gaiangreentree]

57. I support Dean, but he's wrong here

"integrate Muslims"
He clearly hadn't researched the issue to realize that they were already there and the proposed community center is close the the mosque that predates the towers.

[No Elephants]

129. the problem with his statement is assuming there's some reason to keep Muslims away.

[Better Believe It]

58. Accommodation with bigots and racists has never been a good thing to do.

It encourages them, it doesn't stop or weaken them.

I generally like and agree most of the time with Dean but imagine if Howard Dean had said something similar in 1963 in response to the civil rights demonstrations demanding the right to vote in the south:

Dean, speaking on New York's WABC-AM radio, said he would like to see a compromise on the issue of voting rights for Negroes - one that includes moving the voting rights demonstrations out of Selma, Alabama and to another less controversial site in the north. He adds, however, that "people should be able to vote as they see fit."

Dean argues that though the backers of the voting rights project are "trying to do something that's good" and integrate Negroes "into the fabric of the United States," the issue is "very delicate" and there should be a compromise "so that everybody is accommodated by this."

That would have been horrible.

Does he or any progressive really think that New York followers of Islam should be viewed as being somehow responsible for 9/11, certainly more than Jews or Christians, and therefore should surrender to racist demands by the right-wing? If one buys into that, you can also be convinced that the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq was behind the 9/11 terrorist attack.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. bigoted comments from dean. disappointing

[bvar22]

64. And the good Doctor's remarks...

...are an affront to the 98 American Muslims who died in the WTC on 9-11.


Yes.
Negroes should have the right to sit in the front of the bus,
but they should NEVER do so since that would be "an affront" to the sensibilities of all the White Bigots.

Sorry, Doctor.
I know your are a good soldier just trying to limit the damage,
but you are WRONG on this issue.

Constitutional Rights and Equal Protection are non-negotiable.

[DonCoquixote]

153. We disagree a lot

But I never thought we would be actually be on the same side against something dean did.

[Douglas Carpenter]

67. caving into anti-Muslim hystia is a deal breaker for me and I supported Dean very early on

in 2003 - because of his stand against the Iraq War. But unless Gov. Dean repudiates his position, he has lost my support forever.

This campaign against moderate and liberal Sufi Muslims building a community center in lower Manhattan and trying to reach out to a broader community is part of a broader campaign of lies, hate, ignorance and hysteria against an already marginalized group of Americans.

Right now there is a nationwide campaign of anti-Muslim hysteria being whooped up by right-wing politicians, the crazy wing of fundamentalist Christianity and the likes of Newsmax and Fox News. There is a grave danger of this hysteria becoming - if it has not already - completely mainstream discourse in American society.

This hysteria has dangerous ramifications, not only for the American-Muslim community but for the entirety of society and the direction it is going. The 20th Century has surely shown that hate campaigns are not controllable and can and do lead society down extremely self-destructive paths.

This hysteria has even more dangerous ramifications for American foreign policy.

There are right-wing religious crazies in America who now pretty much dominate the Republican Party and there are the neoconservatives who are bent on promoting a permanent American war in the Middle East and I believe they must be stopped or America and the whole world will experience a catastrophe beyond imagination. The religious crazies believe they must help facilitate the battle of Armageddon in order to usher in the second coming of Christ. This is not a small marginal group of kooks. This is a group who are to a large degree now calling the shots in the Republican Party while their allies the neoconservatives work out the details.

Diffusing this hysteria and not allowing this hysteria to become mainstream discourse is one of the most important stands any public figure can take - The consequences of this hysteria growing and becoming even more mainstream are just too dire. Sadly, Gov. Dean has just caved into this campaign of hate, lies, ignorance and hysteria.

......

Mayor Michael Bloomberg: 'Sad Day For America' If Ground Zero Mosque Plan Is Killed

Mayor Michael Bloomberg: 'Sad Day For America' If Ground Zero Mosque Plan Is Killed

NEW YORK — New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg says it would be "a sad day for America" if opponents successfully kill plans for a mosque proposed near the World Trade Center site.

Bloomberg has been among a few outspoken elected officials supporting the plans for an Islamic center and mosque two blocks from ground zero.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/bloomberg-sad-day-for-ame_n_683692.html

"Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11 and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values – and play into our enemies' hands – if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists – and we should not stand for that." Mayor Michael Bloomberg

.

.

[No Elephants]

131. It's sad when one of our political idols reveals he or she has faults, like any other human..

For me, the solution is not to idolize any politician.


I take the totality of the person. I believe Dean is a decent man overall.

But, if you ever do find a politician--or any human--who is perfect, please pm me.

[Arrowhead2k1]

68. FUCK! Dean too??!!

Doctor FUCKING Dean wants us to cater to bigots, fearmongers, xenophobes, and other people suffering from delusional paranoia because they simply can't bring themselves to believe that the AMERICAN Muslims in lower Manhattan have NOTHING to do with extremism and 9/11? FUCK HIM!

:mad:

[Iwillnevergiveup]

72. Bloomberg is correct

Dean is uncharacteristicly wrong.

[No Elephants]

133. Not entirely uncharacteristically, IMO.

I think issues around minority groups may be his Achilles heel. I've heard him say a couple of things that shocked me. One was about the Hispanic (according to him) staff at a hotel where some Democratic event was going on and I've forgotten the other. Both were around 2004.


His wiki says he requested to room with an African American roommate at Yale. Some might find that "liberal" and/or commendable. I find it offensive.

:shrug"

[defendandprotect]

73. Surprised Dean is so wrong on this issue... 9% of 9/11 victims were Muslim....

and they are 6% of the population!

[Phillip Walker]

74. Sounds like Howie

considers The State as a religion.

[Rowdyboy]

77. Very disappointing and unexpected....

[RamboLiberal]

79. Really disappointed in Dean on this one

Sorry Howard but I side on standing with the Constitution on this one. The damn Repukes are just ramping this up as an issue. If we really wanted to give the finger to those who attacked the WTC on 9-11 we'd counter the wingnuts using this issue and let the center be built.

[JCMach1]

89. Obama seemed to 'ramp it up' pretty well himself the other day

and it will hurt him...

I both agree and disagree with Dean on this.

-Personally, I am against the Community Center because it is being built with money that has ties to the Saudis (no shocker there).

-Having said that I am against it, I think IT IS A LOCAL ISSUE and should be treated as such. I believe the local authorities have been pretty supportive. IF they voted yes to go forward, they should have the facts as they are.

The fact is that both sides in this issue have politicized it. It's location was a 'political' gesture from the beginning. It really should come as no shock that the knuckle-draggers on the right would react accordingly.

[NYC Liberal]

80. An "affront"?

Opposing a community center for the SOLE reason that it is being built by Muslims is a bigoted position.

[becxx]

82. I grew up a Methodist so that's what it should be!!!

No, ifs and or buts about it, if there is anything at ground zero, it should be Methodist. LOL. Just kidding.

Seriously, I like the idea of something secular and peace for a change. It seems that removing religion and bringing in secularism and peace to Ground Zero would be perfect in my view.

[No Elephants]

135. Please see Replies 102 and 109.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[becxx]

85. I think Dean was saying

Why not just make Ground Zero secular? That's what we do with our court houses and government buildings. Courts have even ordered that the Ten Commandments be removed from some government properties. I think it is appropriate to keep Ground Zero secular too.

Actually, I think Ground Zero is hallowed US ground just as Mount Rushmore and other historic place are. Those types of places are always secular as they should be.

[Arrowhead2k1]

87. And how far does "Ground Zero" extend exactly?

The community isn't planned on WTC property. It's private property, two blocks away. This entire issue has been manufactured and blown out of proportion by the right, and one by one, day by day, so called progressives are getting suckered by it. Wake up!

[JonLP24]

130. There are already 3 churches nearby

[No Elephants]

136. Please see Repy 119 as well.

[boppers]

84. Abrahamic religion brought those towers down.

Thus, no chapels, churches, mosques, or synagogues (etc.) should be in the immediate area.

How's that for a compromise?

[anAustralianobserver]

90. hehe no; there can be good and bad in everything including in the Abrahamic religions

individually and collectively, but I take your point.

[No Elephants]

137. No. Bin Laden's views about our foreign policy brought down those towers.

He specifically cited Israel, the blood of innocent children in the streets of Beirut during Poppy Bush's reign and Palestine. http://mprofaca.cro.net/binladen_transcript.htmlml

IMO, framing us as anti-Islam is only window dressing, to try to inflame Muslims all over the world against us. Say whatever else you will about him, he's crafty.

As far as no chapels, etc., what do you suggest? Tearing down all the ones that are already there and cancelling the Greek Orthodox one that is planned?

And, even if we did that, we'd still be left with this battle bc the building is to be a community center with spaces for many activities, including swimming and prayer. It is not to be a mosque.

And even if we get around all that, we'd still have to find our way around several provisions of our pesky Constitution.

[JNelson6563]

91. I love Howard Dean

I disagree with him on this issue. Strongly.

Julie

[Senator]

106. K&+R

[Hissyspit]

127. Update IV: Dean's Response to Greenwald - "compromise"

"UPDATE IV: Last night, I asked Dean to record a podcast interview with me about his position. Thus far, he has submitted a written response to what I wrote here for publication on Salon, which is re-printed below in full. For me, several questions remain about his rationale, as well as some new ones raised by this statement, and it's still my hope that he'll be willing to answer some of those questions and have a discussion about his views:

First of all I am not going to back off. The reaction did surprise me because most of the negative reaction had to do with defending the constitutional rights of the builders of the center. Of course I never attacked those rights, I explicitly supported them as the President also did this week. Nor did I side with the Islamophobic rhetoric of Newt, Palin et al. There are a great many people in this debate talking past each other as is often the case these days.

Here is my case. First, no one who understands the American Constitution can reasonably doubt the right of the builders to build. Secondly, the building site is very close to the site of a violent tragedy that seared the soul of every American including Muslim Americans. Thirdly, the builders of the proposed Islamic Center say they want to help heal the nation and there is a preponderance of evidence that that is true, based not least on the fact that the last administration viewed the leadership of this group as a. pro American bridge to the Muslim world.

Fourth, there are many Americans, about 65 or 70 percent, including many family members of the victims, who have very strong emotional resistance to building on this site. Some of them may have other feelings such as hate, fear, etc. but the vast majority of these people are not right wing hate mongers.

My argument is simple. This Center may be intended as a bridge or a healing gesture but it will not be perceived that way unless a dialogue with a real attempt to understand each other happens. That means the builders have to be willing to go beyond what is their right and be willing to talk about feelings whether the feelings are "justified" or not. No doubt the Republic will survive if this center is built on its current site or not. But I think this is a missed opportunity to try to have an open discussion about why this is a big deal because it is a big deal to a lot of Americans who are notjust right wing politicians pushing the hate button again. I think those people need to be heard respectfully whether they are right or whether they are wrong.

This has nothing to do with the right to build and unlike same sex marriage or the civil rights movement it is not about equal protection under the law. The rights of the builders are not in dispute. This is about ending the poisonous atmosphere engendered by fear and hate, and in order to do that there has to be genuine listening, hearing and willingness to compromise on both sides I personally believe that there are other possible solutions that could result from such a process and that a genuine exploration of those possibilities is something we ought to try.

The mere fact that a majority of Americans hold a particular view -- including perfectly nice and well-meaning people -- doesn't mean the view is free from bigotry and irrational fear. Does anyone doubt that? The history of most nations is suffused with episodes whereby perfectly well-intentioned people ingested -- unwittingly or otherwise -- irrational and even horrific positions about a whole host of matters. As for why opposition to Park 51 is necessarily and by definition grounded in classic bigotry -- i.e., all Muslims bear responsibility for the 9/11 attack -- see my NYT contribution here. For how that bigotry expresses itself in practice among project opponents, see here and here. The central question raised by this controversy is the same one raised by countless similar controversies throughout American history: whether the irrational fears and prejudices of the majority should be honored and validated or emphatically confronted. That question, and several other issues raised by Dean's response, are what I hope to discuss with him."

[No Elephants]

141. Hey! While we're at it, let's urge African Americans to compromise with the KKK and gays to

compromise with Reverend Rick Warren. And insist Israel negotiate with terrorists, too.

Dean just doesn't get it.

You're right. He's wrong.

Please see also Replies 117, 119 and, yes, 133.

Putting it the very best possible way, Dean is totally tone deaf on this. Sad.

[Hissyspit]

142. Those other words are Greeenwald's.

But I agree with them.

[No Elephants]

143. Thanks for clarifying. I agree as well.

[Xenotime]

128. Dean is a loose cannon

[krabigirl]

138. True, burlington coat factory's old building could have belonged to anyone. But it doesn't.

Ugh, people just need to mind their own business. And by focusing on this, it is obvious who "won" the war on terror. Definitely not us.

[No Elephants]

144. I am surprised and saddened by how many DUers stand with bigots and so proud of the rest of DU.

[jimlup]

145. At this point after the debate has been front and center I'm dissappointed

Howard needs to stand on 1st Amendment principles here. Not cave to the stupid "majority rule" thing.

[Renew Deal]

150. Howard Dean is an enemy of the Constitution

Who would have thought it? He cares about the second amendment and not much else.

[Freddie Stubbs]

169. Nowhere in his statments did he say that they did not have a right to build the mosque

[newspeak]

151. and the media throws bullshite at the wall again

and sees what sticks. I swear some Americans are so easily swayed or it's so easy to pander to their prejudisms and ignorance. Over and over again I hear on the boobtube that the mosque is going to be built on ground zero. Yeah, what an affront to all of those 9/11 victims, when close to one hundred of those victims were muslim (and I'm not talking about the alleged highjackers). As I understand by reading, this is a community center with one room for prayer, not a mosque. I understand that this building is at least two blocks from ground zero, and that the leader is sufi. I'm sure OBL has great respect for sufis :sarcasm:.

We have growing unemployment, people losing their houses and worries of our social safety net being stripped; and this is the new big side show for the media and the repugs. Absolutely unfekkingbelievable!

[Green_Lantern]

158. In Dean's defense...

From his statement it sounds like he may not know the full story about the Cordoba house.

He seems to have been led into this response by a faulty premise that this is a mosque restricted to the Islamic faith as opposed to a multi-faith center.

If you look at Dean's words he's endorsing exactly what Cordoba is.

Dean probably doesn't spend his time researching such a minute issue.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Green_Lantern]

166. are you accusing me of bigotry?

I wasn't even talking about my views on the subject but Howard Dean's. And I'm saying he's buying into the hype that this Cordoba initiative is just an "in your face" religious display and that it's right at Ground Zero.

It'd be like building a Christian church at WTC.

And please spare me on comparing religion to race...saying all members of a race do the same thing is silly while the whole point of a religion is members doing the same thing.

If "God" is going to "tell" some followers to kill then other followers of "God" need to convince us they won't be told to kill.

[western mass]

176. the idea that all of Islam

is in any way related or to blame for what happened on 9-11 is casual bigotry.

This is exactly what is being implied when one opposes the mosque under question.

[Green_Lantern]

178. I disagree..

I think some people like Dean are basing their opinion on media spun misconception that this center is an in your face Muslim religious display.

It has nothing to do with blaming all Muslims for 9/11 but honestly if those 19 terrorists were atheists or pagans I doubt they would've done what they did.

[24601]

165. Howard isn't shy about his views - and if I recall right, he broke

with those "radical" Episcopalians over a parking lot - so this doesn't surprise me. Let Howard be Howard - no big deal and he's a private citizen.

[ljm2002]

167. Shame on you, Dr. Dean!

I honestly thought you were better than that.

This is a ginned-up controversy started by some anti-Moslem rabid rightwing woman and then taken up by the Fox hounds.

Furthermore it is a fundamental issue of religious freedom. Not to mention of private property rights.

The real poke in the eye to the victims of 9/11? Well I'd say it was the fact that we never got close to the truth about the 9/11 attacks. Secondarily I'd say that if we REALLY cared so much about 9/11 and the families then we'd have figured out a way to rebuild something there or a memorial now that it is nearly 9 YEARS AFTER THE EVENT.

Shame on Howard Dean for this.

[Green_Lantern]

181. nonsense shame on him...

From his statement it's clear he doesn't know the whole story about this silly issue. DUers forget not everyone has the free time to spend looking in depth into these playground fights.

As I said up in this thread Dean believed the spin that this was just an "in your face" religious display at Ground Zero and not the community center it is.

Dean is no bigot...he just doesn't want a single religion to dominate the focus of Ground Zero.

[ljm2002]

182. I adore Howard Dean...

...but he is wrong on this. If he does not know even the basic facts about the issue then he ought to keep his mouth shut, particularly as he is a very visible pol and has influence in how people look at things.

Sorry, he damned well ought to take time to find out about an issue that he is making public comments about.

[Green_Lantern]

183. I may agree with you if he sought out to make a statement..

But when a radio show interviews you and all of a sudden tosses out a question about this issue I can imagine your mouth moves faster than your brain.

How would he possibly research something he probably didn't know they'd ask him about?

I just love how people criticizing for this are so smug in their perfection.

[cadmium]

Nobody is 100%

I dont agree with my own favorite pol John Kerry all the time. I think he is too accepting of free international trade.

Dean once said something like Dems have to get over God Guns and Gays as issues. He is still one of the very best we have. Al Gore pushed NAFTA full throttle. Al Gore would have been a great president.

Barbara Boxer came out against decriminalization of pot. Russ Feingold voted for Alberto Gonzales as AG and Judge Roberts Chief Justice (he is worse than Requist).

I think Dean is silly on this issue but they cant be right all the time.

[cadmium]

168. Nobody is 100%

I dont agree with my own favorite pol John Kerry all the time. I think he is too accepting of free international trade.

Dean once said something like Dems have to get over God Guns and Gays as issues. He is still one of the very best we have. Al Gore pushed NAFTA full throttle. Al Gore would have been a great president.

Barbara Boxer came out against decriminalization of pot. Russ Feingold voted for Alberto Gonzales as AG and Judge Roberts Chief Justice (he is worse than Requist).

I think Dean is silly on this issue but they cant be right all the time.

[The Second Stone]

177. I think that Dean is mistaken

The only 9/11 family member I've heard from is Ted Olsen. He supports the freedom of religion to have a Muslim community center because we are Americans sworn to uphold the constitution. At least those of us who have so sworn.

Of the one billion Muslims in the world, far less than 1 percent are violent extremists. Pretty much the same small fraction as Christian violent extremists. We don't let those extremists deter us from the business of being civilized to each other.

Now the political opportunists, the people who stir up fears for political advantage, they need to be stood up to. Did we learn nothing from McCarthy's reign of terror and the 60 years of crap that have followed? Apparently not.

Muslims being good neighbors and building community is the height of sensitivity. Playing to bigotry and fear is apparently politics as usual.

[Zorra]

184. The videos of "Muslims" cheering worldwide after 9/11 doesn't help

the case for building a mosque at ground zero. Although this group was most likely a very small representation of Muslim people, it's really going to stick in the craw of many Americans, who are always going to wonder if the reasoning behind building a mosque at ground zero is because it is an especially holy place to Muslims because the attack on 9/11 had an arguably anti-western/anti-Christian significance.

Looking at it from this perspective, I can totally see Doc's point.

I tend to agree with Doc that this is in bad taste-and that an alternate site would be more appropriate. Honestly, I don't understand the reasoning of whoever decided that building this Mosque at ground zero was somehow necessary. Seriously, WTF were they thinking? It makes no sense. It's going to make a lot of people angry and suspicious. They may feel someone is spitting in their face while flipping them off.

[DonCoquixote]

187. First off

it is NOT at ground zero, any more than the strip clubs are. It is a former retail space, that could easily be sitting vacant like other retail spaces.

second, these are sufis, people who ben ladin would kills just as much as he would kill us.

third, you do not think they can doctor videos of americans acting stupid? The tea party by itself could make for fine anti-yank propaganda.

[USA_1]

188. Mount Rushmore & Presidents Park

These are located on the Black Hills which are sacred to Native American tribes from that area. Thousands of Native Americans were killed in order to create those monstrosities. Politicians had no problem with that, did they?

[primavera]

190. Geez, this is a great distraction!

We no longer have to pay any attention to global warming, oil spills, the ever-widening chasm between rich and poor, people dying for want of health care, the subordination of the democratic political process to corporate plutarchy, an economy in shambles, record high unemployment rates, nope, don't need to trouble ourselves about any of that. Instead, we can devote our energies 27/7 to bickering about which set of primitive superstitious rituals get practiced within a particular geographical area. Karl Rove must be laughing his ass off.