France begins deporting Roma Gypsies

[pampango]

Source: BBC

Some 93 Roma left for Romania and 700 more will follow in the coming weeks after being evicted from their camps. The French government says it is a "decent and humane" policy of removing people from deplorable conditions.

But rights groups have criticised the move, and Romania has warned France against "xenophobic reactions". "I am worried about the risks of populism and xenophobic reactions in a context of economic crisis," Romanian Foreign Minister Teodor Baconschi told Radio France Internationale.

The operation has been condemned by human rights groups, who say it is deliberately stigmatising a generally law-abiding section of society to win support among right-wing voters.

Last week, members of the UN's Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination criticised the tone of political discourse in France on race issues, saying racism and xenophobia were undergoing a "significant resurgence" there.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11020429

---

"Years ago, the one-time dissident and Czech President Vaclav Havel said that the Gypsy problem was "a litmus test not of democracy, but of civil society". The challenge now is not just to countries like Hungary or the Czech Republic, but also to much of Europe."

"Some have accused the French president of pandering to the far-right, of stigmatising a vulnerable group. One MP from the president's own party called the round-up "disgraceful" and compared it with what the Nazis did. However, the measures appear to be popular with the public and the president has seen his poll ratings edge up.

The secretary-general of Mr Sarkozy's party, Xavier Bertrand, said the actions were "a slap in the face" for the politically correct.

"As usual, 'Sarkozyism' is out of step with the elites but in step with society," said Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/08/the_roma_repatriation.html

[joeybee12]

1. France's Interior minister is apparently as big an asshole as Sarkozy

Absolutely sickening.

[krabigirl]

13. Yep. The anti-immigrant feeling is definitely there, just like here, right now.

[aquart]

43. No, they've always hated foreigners. And gypsies. And Jews. And...

To hear a Romanian talk about a Gypsy...or an Albanian....scary. But traditional.

After World War II, Europe was made to feel a little guilty about the dead Jews. The dead Gypsies....not so much.

[whathehell]

66. It does put us "intolerant" americans in a little perspective, doesn't it? n/t

[lark]

68. I just got back from spending 15 days in France

and was surprised by the racism. I was in No. France and there are a lot of Turks. My daughter's Director at the language school told us not to go to the Tabacs to get our wine because those were owned by Turks and "it's not safe". I was also surprised by the huge amount of minorities that are there - a much greater percentage of muslim and Asian people than you see here in the states.

[Odin2005]

83. The Euros actually seem to be far more racist than Americans.

It's just that the Euros are more discrete about it, while our bigots have megaphones.

[superconnected]

52. I've even seen it reading Irish news papers.

You get these kind of people in every country.

[Lightning Count]

2. Few Europeans like the Roma's.

Whether the reasons are good for this or not is debatable.

[HankyDubs]

12. Debatable?

Debatable? Bigotry isn't debatable. You claim you're human but that is debatable.

Sarkozy is a Nazi collaborator.

[Lightning Count]

14. Please read some of the posts from people with personal experience with the Roma.

What is a country to do with people who take pride in not assimilating?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davepc]

22. Life is black and white. People are only oppressed or oppressors.

All oppressed are helpless victims of their oppressors who if only freed from the shackles of bigotry would live in peace and harmony with their neighbors in a joyous symphony of mankind at its best.

There is no such thing as self selecting groups of nomadic people who by culture and custom run a life that mimics a confidence game upon the peoples of the places they choose to live.

This simply does not exist.

Any if any of these people did actually exist it's only because they're forced into that type of life by the bigoted intolerant societies they happen to find themselves in. If those societies were more understanding that that lifestyle would fall by the wayside replaced with productive industriousness common among the working class culture of most of Europe.

Gangs of child beggars turned out on the streets by their male elders and small groups of petty thieves and pickpockets same men control are simple imagined figments of bigoted imaginations and have no basis in reality.

It's so nice to see the world in such an enlightened perspective. People are good or evil. The good are the oppressed and downtrodden and the evil are the ones doing the oppressing. Groups and cultures that encounter resistance from other groups and cultures never have a basis in differences in activities and value systems but only naked hate and bigotry.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

25. People take pride in not assimilating?

There are some in the U.S. who take pride in celebrating their heritage.

Me, I drink green beer once a year.

I suppose that might be grounds for deportation, if some other country would have me.

:hi:

[pampango]

34. I suppose if the Roma tried to "assimilate" they would be accused of taking French jobs and lowering

French wages (something the Roma are apparently not accused of doing).

In many places, including the US, the anti-immigrant folks believe that the immigrants "assimilate" a little too well into the job market and other aspects of our economy and society.

When it comes to "assimilation", it seems that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[OnlinePoker]

47. The Amish haven't assimilated...should we deport them? n/t

[LanternWaste]

67. Tell them to...

"What is a country to do with people who take pride in not assimilating?"

Tell them to get back on the Mayflower and go back to England....?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

94. Wow.

Just... wow.

[azurnoir]

3. How disgusting so it's still ok to to be a bigot

as long as its against the right group

[davepc]

4. My relatives in Italy say they resist any and all attempts to integrate them into larger society

and insist on living on the fringes.

My only interactions with them were the couple who tried to pick my pocket at Roma Termini which is a narrow experience.

I think the issue is a bit more complex then blatant bigotry. It would help if the Romani people wold attempt to meet good faith efforts by communities halfway instead of rejecting them.

[izquierdista]

7. Way to paint a target on your back

Having a cultural value that it is good to cheat, swindle, and steal from people not in your tribe is one way. Another way is to label yourself "God's chosen people" and have little social interaction. Is it any wonder that when right-wingers look around for something to focus their hate on, they pick the people who wear these self-made targets?

It's hard enough to get people to act civilized when they have the tendency to form cliques and gangs based on skin tone, language, myths, and dozens of other goofy identifiers let alone when one group decides that they don't have to try to get along with other groups. During the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland, foreigners who visited had trouble telling the Catholics from the Protestants, since by superficial outward appearance they all looked and sounded the same. But the locals had no trouble in spotting the difference from a hundred yards away. You can't expect people to ignore differences when evolution has programmed them to ask "my tribe or other?" What you can do is civilize people into tolerance and maybe even more, into acceptance of others. But it does go both ways.

The Roma have two choices: (1) give up fortune-telling, house painting scams, pickpocketing and learn to fit in with the culture of the country they live in or (2) extinction.

[HankyDubs]

17. victim blame game

"Having a cultural value that it is good to cheat, swindle, and steal from people not in your tribe is one way. Another way is to label yourself "God's chosen people" and have little social interaction. Is it any wonder that when right-wingers look around for something to focus their hate on, they pick the people who wear these self-made targets?"

Classic victim blaming. Repulsive. Seek help!

[Bluenorthwest]

19. These are the exact same 'arguments' that are always leveled

at the 'other' of the hour. And I'd like to see you look Bob Hoskins in the eye and say those things. I offer a link to famous Romani people for anyone who might be confused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romani_people

[KamaAina]

42. Well, well, well. Look what popped up on that list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Sark%C3%B6zi

Rudolf Sarközi, (11 Nov. 1944 - ),is the chairman of the Austrian Romani association Kulturverein. He was born in the Lackenbach concentration camp in Burgenland, Austria. After the liberation of the camp, he returned with his mother to her home in Burgenland. At the age of 14 he started working, and in 1964 married Helga, moving with her to her home town of Vienna. After a career in electronics, he founded the Austrian Romani Cultural Society and achieved legal recognition for the Romani minority in Austria. He retired in 1997 to concentrate on his work for the Society.

Long-lost relative, perhaps?

[Odin2005]

84. Nice find!

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

74. Yes, blame the victims of bigotry for drawing attention to themselves by their existence...

And if only black people didn't have have so much melanin in their skin, and if only women grew beards and deepened their voices, and if only gays weren't gay, then maybe the bigots wouldn't NOTICE that they were different!

[izquierdista]

88. This is not genetic, it's cultural

The "it's-all-right-to-cheat-a-non-Roma" is a cultural factor, not a congenital factor. It's not as fatal to survival as cultures that are celibate (e.g. Shakers), but it's going to make it difficult to co-exist with other cultures once they wise up.

[YOY]

8. I have experienced and seen the same...and I've experienced a lot.

There are two sides to the story. Gotta see it to believe it.

The hatred of the Roma people is palpable in Europe. The resistance of the Roma toward the cultures they live in is also palpable. They are, to some extent, a right winger's dream come true.

My mother in law related a story to me once that a Roma woman in the village was offered a job that paid more than living off the state (not a bad job either...seemstress or the like that paid twice as much as their "welfare") but never showed up. The Roma woman proudly said that it was easier to live off of the state.

Worthy of note, other Roma, Bulgarians, and Turks in the village did not share her values.

[dixiegrrrrl]

44. How is a story by your mother in law

equal to your "experience and seen the same"?

[YOY]

51. That the problem isn't merely the cultures they live in.

The majority of Roma have to change as well the cultures they live in must be willing to accept them.

If you don't believe me or my mother-in-law go see for yourself. Pop a squat at any small city's train station or bus station and drink a coffee or two and watch. Try not and look too foreign. Draw your own conclusions.

There's hatred of Roma as a whole and there is a part of the population of the Roma who smoke cigarettes and drink on the corner while their kids beg for money in rags 10 feet away.

It's not just that hate that's gotta change...it sounds horribly right-wing of one to say, but there is a problem there on the "victim's side" as well as the perpetrator's side.

[LanternWaste]

69. Place the location of your story in America...

"My mother in law related a story..."

Place the location of your story in America, change Roma to any minority, and Presto! an instant 10-minute diatribe found daily on any A.M. radio talk show

[YOY]

73. Just add the dancing bear training, forcedly begging children, and medieval hygiene

Not to mention the shirking of public education (educators have discouraged them in the past to boot so once again two sides are the problem.) and other negative items as a cultural standard.

Presto...the problem isn't just the cultures they are in. Those cultures have to deal with the acceptance of a minority that they have treated with disdain for centuries and MUST provide the opportunity and social acceptance for the Roma. There is no denying that. There is denial that the Roma are pure victims here. If they are victims (and I hate to sound like a Right Winger) then they are indeed at least a small part (but far from all) to blame for their own misery.

A portion of the Roma do need to adjust. Not to ditch their culture or identity or to be driven to conform to become carbon copies of the cultures they live in, but to adopt a few standards that have been globally accepted as civilized. They need to be given the opportunities.

Like I said...they are a right wingers dream. A minority that really does need to address its problems. (Of course the Right Winger's never think that they and the society they "conserve" are part of the problem to boot).

Those portions of the Roma I mentioned REALLY DO EXIST. I have seen them. Not for all Roma but a significant population. They are not some odd welfare queen story on Rush about several incidents describing need for reform that conservatives use to justify their "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

Really, if you think I'm talking out of my tailpipe, then just take a seat anywhere in a cafe in a small Eastern European city near the bus stop, center of town, or train station. Two things I have seen more than once in my time...(far more than once)

-A child purposefully dressed in rags begging for change while an adult male nearby smokes and drinks keeping an eye on the kid are commonplace.
-A beaten old bear that has been trained to dance by making it stand over hot coals when a fiddle is played.

I've also got the personal story of a cat named Sergei who was offered a security guard job at the local municipality (3 times the pay of being on the dole). Stopped showing up to work after 3 weeks despite being well liked by enough people. The commute wasn't an issue, the hours were easy, responsibilities and stress were not intensive, if sick time for any reason was needed he would get it, and he didn't have any addictions. So why didn't he show up to work? This is a guy who had 8 of his 12 kids taken away by social services because he couldn't afford to take care of them. Where was Sergei? Well seeing as how my girlfriend at the time and I were neighbors with Sergei we could see what he was up to. Lemme tell you, looking over the fence, not a whole lot.

Then there's the time my Neice worked in a hotel and some Western European brought in some Roma kids for a little "personal time" in his room after slipping the staff some money. Eastern Europeans may not be the richest but those weren't putting up with it and called the cops. Turned out the kids parents were their pimps. Happens here too I suppose...usually in some screaming tabloid.

It's very real. It's not Rush bleating about some isolated crap that one pissed off jaded social worker who has turned "conservative" over the years rambled to him about. It's very real and very commonplace.

I don't have to accept that as anyone's culture.

You want to see an incredibly accurate and beautiful film portrayal of the Roma? Watch Emir Kusturica's "Les temps des les gitanes" (I think that's the international title.) The hero of the story is a kind and caring young roma named Perhan, who is abused and taken advantage by the disgusting elements on both sides that I have witnessed myself. You see his treatment and tragic end enabled the cultures (Italian and Serbian) that he lives in as well as his treatment by the hands of his own.

I'm not making this up...nor am I talking about the entirely of the Roma people. I don't hate/dislike anyone as a cultural group. There are indeed a good number of well-to-do, respected, and well-acheived Roma in this world. Despite this sounding like a "I got black friends too" comment, I can relate to some to two of the nicer folks of Roma descent I have met.

A young girl by the name of Alina comes to mind. Hard working kid. Smart as a whip. Spoke near perfect English. Proud Roma. She was treated with distrust by her peers at school because of her heritage. I got the oppportunity to teach her class a few lessons in English. I remember telling her to that the nasty kids were just jealous.

Baba Binka used to make me coffee in the morning. Sweet old Roma gal. Living on a pension. Former custodian I think. I would help her with manual labor and kill the flies in her room when they got in.

They didn't like to talk about people like Sergei. Prolly thought it would make me hate Roma if they did. Maybe the Roma people unlike Sergei did amongst themselves.

[LanternWaste]

78. Again, simply change Roma to Hispanic or Black...

Read your post and tried different inflections and different stresses, yet...

Again, simply change Roma to Hispanic or Black and once again your position is simply up and down the A.M. radio dial, hitting many of the precise same points I've heard on talk radio.


Acculturation happens. It happens whether we want it to or not. For many people, it doesn't happen fast enough and we're told, "they just need top adopt our ways...". For other people, it happens too fast and we're told, "they stole our religious traditions and manipulated it for themselves." But regardless, it happens.

[YOY]

80. No. It's not about adopting "our" ways. It's about joining the 21st century.

It's moreover about making sure they are LET into the 21st century by those who have discriminated against them for centuries. Culture, real culture like music language and art stays. Old outdated traditions, like not bathing as it is believed to invite disease, go.

The word "integration" is a nasty one if used strictly and in an authoritarian manner. It is not quite an apt term and it does not need to be applied.

Comparing them to any other ethnicity and comparing my experiences and opinions to the one-sided "blame only the victim mentality" of the right wing are both ineffectual comparisons.

Nobody has been down as long as the Roma (except maybe the Jews and the Jews for all the horrible things that have happened to them have never been as far down as the Roma). They've been down since Atilla the Hun brought them from India as coppersmiths and they stayed behind (that's one historical theory at least).

No other ethnicity has ever not had a homeland be that homeland a lost or current one.

Please don't tell me I'm imagining it or compare it to some RW hate screed again. I've actually seen it. I've seen the forces keeping them down. There are two players keeping them down.

[aquart]

48. You mean, like we tried to do with the American Indians?

Which they were also so grateful for.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Posteritatis]

97. Given their treatment can you really blame them for wariness? (nt)

[krabigirl]

11. There are large numbers of bigots in every nation. America is not unique in that way.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

50. I take it that "dehumanizing Republicans offends? will agree some are most certainly not

above Hate towards "certain"groups on DU especially when its against groups that like Harry Reid and unlike Obama its just so proper to hate

[Posteritatis]

100. I find dehumanizing *anybody* to be offensive, personally

That road leads to bad places.

[LanternWaste]

70. I imagine the question comes down to...

Kinda silly to pretend any of us are above that sort of thing"

I imagine the question comes down to "who is content to remain that way and who struggles to change...?"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

96. By that reasoning, hating blacks or Jews or gays is just as harmless as hating a baseball team.

:puke:

[CanonRay]

5. Romani people are themselves bigoted

they keep seperate dishes, glasses, and utensils in case non-Romani enter their home. Not that this makes the bigotry of others ok.

[bonnieS]

18. sounds like they may be kosher

Now people have to assimilate in order to stay in a country? How about the various ethnic neighborhoods in cities like New York--like Little Italy or the various Chinatowns (named by others) across America? I would think if people stay to themselves they would be LESS threatening. No intermarriages, for one thing. That's a plus, right? (This is a SARCASTIC statement).

I was mugged once. Not by a Roma. So do I have to dislike everyone from that group--it is a big group. Not telling which.

[Lightning Count]

6. Europe has always had strong immigration laws and requirements.

Not always right, but we should try to emulate Europe and Canada in so many ways.

[wookie72]

9. Not so strong emigration requirements...

That is, they don't seem to have a problem sending their people elsewhere and colonizing there...

[Lightning Count]

10. Touche. nt

[pampango]

20. Our foreign-born population is 11.7%, Europe's varies by country from 7% to 15%, Canada is 18.8%

foreign-born. Canada has much more immigration than the US, while Europe - depending on the country - is in the same range as we are.

"In the majority of Western European countries, the foreign-born population accounted for between seven and 15 percent of the total population. In most of the new EU Member States in Central Europe (with the exception of the Baltic States and Slovenia) the share of foreign born was still below five percent."

http://www.migrationinformation.org/USFocus/display.cfm?ID=402

"According to Statistics Canada, the foreign born represented 18.8 percent (5,647,125) of the total population of Canada in 2001."

http://www.migrationinformation.org/datahub/countrydata.cfm?ID=483

[Lightning Count]

21. Our population is already over 300 million.

How does that compare to Canada and France? Of course that is going to affect our percentages.

[pampango]

32. A country with a high percentage of foreign-born cannot be said to have a restrictive immigration

policy whether it is a small country or a big one.

[Lightning Count]

33. It can be said to have more of a restrictive policy though.

What are the requirements for immigration to Canada? Compare that to the US.

[pampango]

37. Evidently lots of people find Canadian immigration requirements quite easy since they admit so many.

How do you make the case that a country with a higher percentage of immigrants has a more restrictive immigration law than does the country with a much lower percentage of immigrants? Countries with very restrictive immigration policies don't let in many immigrants.

Canada has "restrictive" immigration laws but lets in tons of immigrants? If so, then we are quibbling of the definition of "restrictive".

American immigration requirements are a lot more restrictive than most people think. Of our 11.4% foreign-born, 3 to 5% of those are here illegally (9 to 12 million depending on the estimate you believe) so they are not here because of our "liberal" immigration policies but in spite of it.

Just looking at our legal foreign-born population, it is 6% to 8% (roughly a third of Canada's percentage) of our population. Hardly indicative of a "liberal" immigration policy that so many seem to think we have. If we truly had a "liberal" immigration policy (given how many people in the world would like to immigrate here), we would have 18% of our population foreign-born (like Canada), not 6-8%.

[Lightning Count]

38. What happens to children born to illegal immigrants in Canada?

From Wiki:

In Canada there are three categories of immigrants: family class (closely related persons of Canadian residents), independent immigrants (admitted on the basis of a point system that account for age, health and labour-market skills required for cost effectively inducting the immigrants into Canada's white-collar or blue-collar labour market) and refugees seeking protection by applying to remain in Canada. In 2008, there were 65,567 immigrants in the family class, 21,860 refugees, and 149,072 economic immigrants amongst the 247,243 total immigrants to the country. Approximately 41% of people currently living in Canada are first or second generation immigrants.<1>

This is a great system. One which the US should emulate.

[pampango]

39. I agree that Canada has an immigration system that we should emulate, but...

you can imagine the complaining you would hear about the high number of "economic (independent) immigrants" being "inducted into the white-collar and blue-collar labor market". It wouldn't be long before you heard "These economic immigrants are taking our jobs or lowering our wages."

Canadians seem to look at these immigrants as a positive contribution to their economy and society. I'm not sure enough Americans look at immigrants the same way.
--------------------------------
jus soli is observed in 16% of the world, the United States being the largest practitioner.

States that observe jus soli (birthright citizenship) include:

* Antigua and Barbuda<3>
* Argentina<3>
* Barbados<3>
* Belize<3>
* Bolivia<3>
* Brazil<3>
* Canada<3>
* Chile<4> (children of transient foreigners or of foreign diplomats on assignment in Chile only upon request)
* Colombia<3>
* Dominica<3>
* Dominican Republic<3>
* Ecuador<3>
* El Salvador<3>
* Fiji<5>
* Grenada<3>
* Guatemala<3>
* Guyana<3>
* Honduras<3>
* Jamaica<3>
* Lesotho<6>
* Mexico<3>
* Nicaragua<3>
* Pakistan<3>
* Panama<3>
* Paraguay<3>
* Peru<3>
* Saint Christopher and Nevis<3>
* Saint Lucia<3>
* Saint Vincent and the Grenadines<3>
* Trinidad and Tobago<3>
* United States<3>
* Uruguay<3>
* Venezuela<3>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

[Lightning Count]

40. Seems like Canada's system prevents that though.

By only allowing in immigrants with skill sets that meet unfilled job requirements.

Most of those countries I would not like to emulate.

I wish the US could be more like of the countries below in a myriad of ways

Modification of jus soli
In a number of countries, the automatic application of jus soli has been modified to impose some additional requirements for children of foreign parents, such as the parent being a permanent resident or having lived in the country for a period of time. Jus soli has been modified in the following countries:
United Kingdom on 1 January 1983

Australia on 20 August 1986<2>

Republic of Ireland on 1 January 2005<2>

New Zealand on 1 January 2006<2>

South Africa on 6 October 1995<2>

France also operates a modified form of jus soli

German nationality law was changed on 1 January 2000 to introduce a modified concept of jus soli. Prior to that date, German nationality law was based entirely on jus sanguinis.<2>
.

[pampango]

45. "Approximately 41% of people currently living in Canada are first or second generation immigrants."

I loved this from your previous post. (I wonder how the Tea Party-Canada deals with so many people who are not "real" Canadians in their eyes.)

You may be right about "skill sets that meet unfilled job requirements", but some would interpret that as "jobs Canadians won't do" which never goes over very well here. :) (I can't imagine how such a phrase would work in a US context without howls of protest from Americans who would feel that these immigrants are somehow harming their job prospects or wage levels, but Canada does seem to make it work in a progressive manner.)

[Posteritatis]

99. What? Population count and population percentages are entirely independent things. (nt)

[Tripmann]

15. Not to play devils advocate

but in my own personal experience, the roma gypsies are little more than professional beggars. To secure carriage to EU countries they have to pay a considerable amount by the standards of their homeland i.e. they are not the roma who most need support. They then get housing, benefit payments, welfare and medical while at the same time begging on the street for more money. They have absolutely no intention of integration or even earning their keep in society. For that reason, and the fact that they intentionally take advantage of the generosity of the people and welfare systems in their target countries, I cannot sympathise with their deportation.

Not often I'd have such a controversial view, but I was raised to earn my keep and not burden my fellow man.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Just fyi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romani_people

[wookie72]

27. At the very least...

France should have to stop claiming Django Reinhardt as their own. Only fair.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. At the very least

[wookie72]

23. You people saying this is okay realize..

That the Roma were the second-largest group to be exterminated in the Holocaust, right?
(Does Godwin's Law preclude mentioning that, you know, Hitler actually did something similar?)

[Dulcinea]

29. No easy answer to a complex problem.

The Romani certainly have the right to live as they choose, but should the French taxpayers be forced to pay for it? If it's true that they just want to live off the state, that's not fair. If the Romani can support their way of life, that would be a whole other issue.

[davepc]

30. Unfortuantly "as they chose" for a not insignificant segment of Romani people

is a lifestyle built around begging/petty theft and gaming the social services of the country in which they reside. Until their cultural values change to be more in line with the rest of their country of residence they're not going to be very welcomed as a group, even the ones who don't live lives at the fringes of larger society.

[Laughing Mirror]

31. Gustav Flaubert wrote this in a letter to George Sand about 150 years ago

I was carried away with delight, a week ago, at an encampment of
Gypsies who had established at Rouen. This is the third time that I
have seen them and always with a new pleasure. The great thing is
that they excite the hatred of the bourgeois, although they are as
inoffensive as sheep.

I appeared very badly before the crowd because I gave them a few
sous, and I heard some fine words a la Prudhomme. That hatred
springs from something very profound and complex. One finds it
among all orderly people.

It is the hatred that one feels for the bedouin, for the heretic,
the philosopher, the solitary, the poet; and there is a fear in that
hate. I, who am always for the minority, am exasperated by it. It is
true that many things exasperate me. On the day that I am no longer
outraged, I shall fall flat as the marionette from which one
withdraws the support of the stick.

As a member of a hated minority myself, in response to the hatred of Nicolas Sarkozy, I can only echo Flaubert's exact sentiments 150 years later.

[EFerrari]

41. Django Reinhardt.

One of the first prominent European jazz musicians, Reinhardt remains one of the most renowned jazz guitarists. With violinist Stéphane Grappelli, he cofounded the Quintette du Hot Club de France, described by critic Thom Jurek<2> as "one of the most original bands in the history of recorded jazz." Reinhardt's most popular compositions have become jazz standards, including "Minor Swing", "Belleville", "Djangology", "Swing '42" and "Nuages" (French for "Clouds").

snip

Born in Liberchies, Pont-à-Celles, Belgium, Reinhardt's nickname "Django" is Romani for "I awake."<3> He spent most of his youth in Romani (Gypsy) encampments close to Paris, playing banjo, guitar and violin from an early age. His family made cane furniture for a living, but included several keen amateur musicians. -- Wikipedia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjYNMKvUyXI

[whathehell]

77. Interesting commentary. n/t

[wookie72]

35. Sarkozy aint exactly a French name

Neither is Bruni, for that matter.

[whathehell]

79. I always thought the same regarding the name Sarkozy...Bruni, though, is Italian.

[wookie72]

92. Sarkozy is Hungarian, French and Greek Jewish

So he's definitely the descendant of immigrants. Fricking hypocrite.

[Sinti]

49. As one of the group you're referring to

and specifically a French one. I must say you terrify me. I would run from you. This thread has actually made me more afraid of the people around me.

Give up your culture and emulate us or go extinct? They are one and the same. If the Roma become exactly like the rest of Europe, then there are no Roma.

My family lived in France for ages and ages. They are not foreigners. They are French and Sinti, both. Sinti, Roma, Kalderashi are merely Indians from India who traveled to Europe and mixed with them. Some continue to travel around, most hide in plain sight like my family.

We are not "professional beggars." Though, to fit in with the stereotype I do read tarot cards and learned "witchcraft" from my grandmother - I hope that helps me fit into your weird picture. Personally, I'd prefer to travel around and see new things. I get bored - it's like my blood wants to roll on to the next thing and might go without me if I don't comply. Unfortunately, the truth is it's too easy to wind up dead on the road somewhere, and no one would give a damn. Good riddance to bad rubbish, right. If you could get rid of enough of the leeches (like these gypsies) you'd have lower taxes, and less filth about I suppose.

I have always had a job as an adult, but I have also always understood that if my employer finds out about my heritage I'll be fired or made so miserable I quit. I've seen it happen more than once. We are simply not a protected class, there's no recourse. You just get another job. There are other strange reactions people have when they find out, which would make you want to leave anyway.

This is just a simple fact of life that you probably don't have to deal with. When was the last time you were fired for being of English decent, or Irish? Fortunately, I can cover. I have light eyes and can stay out of the sun if I want to. I worry about my son sometimes, he'll tell them flat out to get a reaction. I'm afraid he'll be shot by some racist who feels intimidated, because he didn't bother to try and cover.

The problem of criminality and begging is one of poverty. When begging, living off of charity, or engaging in criminal behavior is the best option for any of your people, you're obviously failing and need to think more clearly about your system. If they know nothing else, apparently you should have started several generations earlier. Shipping them off, or just getting rid of them for $300 a piece is much cheaper in the short term, but in the long run there will be more and they won't just be gypsies eventually, they'll be your own children.

whoa... scary people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. the amount of bigotry that is considered tolerable on du these days

is truly mind blowing

[azurnoir]

54. yes it is agreed +10000 n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. romas. muslims. whomever else sarcozy doesn't like. gays.

blacks. it's never ending

[azurnoir]

58. oh it's not just ones that Sarkozy hates that it's ok to hate here as

well Sarkozy has so many compatriots in the Democratic party

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. oh i know. it was one of the many things thats ok to hate. i totally forgot about immigrants

they are well hated on du too.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

98. Butbutbutbut the most hated, vilified & persecuted group there is...

...is white male straight Southern Christian conservatives who chose to display the Stars and Bars to celebrate their heritage!!111(biblepi/3)11!!

[fascisthunter]

101. it is sickening

[sofa king]

57. Hi, Sinti! A question:

Do your people consider themselves to be nomadic, not wedded to any particular place, or is the frequent movement of Roma groups imposed upon them from outside? Given the chance, would they settle down somewhere?

A large and largely unacknowleged part of American history deals with the conflict between nomadic peoples and the sedentary folks who encroached upon their space. The couch-sitters won, and pinned the blame for all those Indian wars on the tribes, when in fact it was the tribes who were wronged through deceit, criminal exploitation, and endangerment of their way of life.

[Sinti]

61. I can't speak for all of them

Most seem to move on, because they're pushed along. If I saw threatening things I would definitely move along. There is no sense in tempting the devil to your door when you can get a new door. Originally these folks probably had a path between India and Europe that they followed and then many just stayed in Europe via marrying into the existing population - I am surmising, but it seems logical. I bet I could find a tale somewhere to add flavor.

My great-great grandfather was semi-nomadic, basically rolling around France and around the border. My great-grandmother was stationary, though. She married a Frenchman and didn't continue the nomadic way of life. I suppose people do whatever it is they think will help them survive best. If standing still works, you stand still. If moving around works, you move around. A slow transition from one to the other would be normal for entire cultures, if you were to consider that people are also animals.

Over time they seem to settle down. Most Roma are blended in with the culture as to barely be seen, as I understand it. It was very encouraged, wear beige, be as bland as possible until you know them. We are the invisible people. I understand the ones that won't blend in. Who wants to lie to make some other fool more comfortable. He should get over it, not me. It's his mind. It's his problem.

The Indian Wars, though, was the encroachment of empire destroying the existing men and culture, if not the empire itself the children of empire - it was how they were taught to live. I don't believe the existing tribes could have taken any posture that would have prevented their annihilation. It's an outrage to the modern mind, I think, what was done then. Looking back it's like we had lost our ability to reason and recognize ourselves when looking at other men.

This swing of the racist bat is aimed within. They're trying to shroud poverty with racism and blame the impoverished for their lack. Meanwhile, the bankers just ran away with the treasury again and the chem companies are trying to own all your seeds for food. Their system is broken, it always has been, but it scares me to think what kind of nightmare they'll put people through trying to "fix" it to prove that it ever worked properly.

[sofa king]

87. Thank you!

When you said, "I understand the ones that won't blend in," it reminded me of when I first started working with American Indian tribes.

This amazing fellow named Gerald Clifford ran my ass ragged one day and at the end of it he said something along the lines of, "You gotta learn to keep up, because our people are encouraged to leave tribal life behind every single day of their lives. The ones who stay behind fight hard to keep what they have."

And, the suggestion was, either I would fight that hard, too, or I could shove the hell off, which was pretty much how Gerald called it all the time, bless him. I only got to work with him directly a couple of times before he died, but I sure learned a lot.

Such an attitude as Gerald's is, I think, a commonality among all tribes and nations that struggle to exist among (or within) larger nations.

[pampango]

60. Didn't make myself clear. Sarkozy is pandering to the xenophobic right wingers to win votes.

I quoted Havel to indicate support for his view that how a society deals with the Gypsy/Roma "problem" is an indication not just of a democracy, but of a civil society. Likewise the sentiments expressed by "human rights groups" and "UN's Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination" were meant to be indicative of my support.

The quote from Sarkozy's secretary-general is the usual conservative tripe that seeks to dismiss any questioning of pandering to the xenophobic right wing as elitist and out of touch with the "common man". ;)

[Sinti]

63. It's frightening to see them push people's minds around like that.

It's just cover for the incoming destitute on the street, IMO. The bankers, etc, are going to grind the people a bit, it's going to hurt and they need a quick enemy or other distraction. They'll ether get an aggressive stance Roma-haters distracted which can be built on if you want, or the always useful "thank god I'm not him" passive stance. They say they're expecting a double dip, with triple layer cake for the top, I'm sure. They need a distraction or ten.

I was shocked at the stereotypes thrown around in the thread and didn't know which one to respond to, so I just responded to the OP.

[Laughing Mirror]

65. Thank goodness you are here, Sinti

To bring some sanity to this insane thread.

I've heard these stereotypes all my life. They taught me, as a child, what hate was. It is quite strange to see those same stereotypes regurgitated here in this thread. Thank you for bringing some light.

[LeftishBrit]

75. Exactly!

Sarkozy is probably not even really all that xenophobic himself (he's the son of immigrants after all), but he doesn't want to lose votes to LePen's party.

[Desertrose]

62. Sinti...I don't know what to say....

I have always been attracted to the Romas....such beauty & spirit.... music and dancing. Incredible. (Have always wondered about a "certain area" of my family history.)

I know it is very hard to keep who you are hidden...it sucks the world is this way and has been this way for much too long. I'm sorry you are afraid of the people around you but I can sure understand why. I can't believe the comments on this thread myself.


All I can do is to try to educate people whenever I can...but it surely seems like an overwhelming thing anymore.

Stay strong!
:hug:

[LanternWaste]

71. I;ve never done this, but here goes.... +1

I've never done this, but here goes.... +1.

There's absolutely nothing in your post I can disagree with on any level.

Thank you.

[LeftishBrit]

76. Thank you for your post!

[whathehell]

81. Why would the OP "terrify" you?

He/she is only reporting on what is happening in France.

You are in Idaho, n'est pas?

[Odin2005]

85. Wow! Thank you for sharing that!

[Gormy Cuss]

86. One would think that blatant discrimination wouldn't need to be explained

but thank you for this informative post.

[Chicago dyke]

55. i'm sorry to say my one and only moment of contact with the Roma

was when i was a child, and they came by our house selling something, i don't remember what. somehow, they talked their way into the house, and mom caught one of them up in her bedroom closet, trying to steal her jewelry.

it sounds like a fascinating culture, to me as someone who appreciates nonconformity and dropping off the consumerist grid. i'm sorry there seem to be problems on "both sides" in terms of how to help Romas and other EU citizens live together peacefully.

[dmallind]

64. Meh - there is not a single culture that IS any one attribute

I know this should be obvious, but just because you've encountered Roma folks who are criminals and antisocial does not make them all so. Of course neither can anyone claim all of them are simply misunderstood poor wanderers who are entirely benign and charming either. I haven't exactly spent my life mixing with Gypsies but I've known a few. One of them being one of the hardest workers I ever knew as a hands on landscaper (and an amazingly effective nightclub bouncer as his second job where he worked with me, despite being not all that large), and another couple being unmitigated shysters, thieves and swindlers living off the state and crime simultaneously. Which was a real Roma and which not? All of them were of course. Are crime rates higher among them than Anglos? Quite probably. So however are poverty and lack of education and lack of job opportunities. Which is causal of the other? Nobody can say.

France has every right and every ethically sound basis to enforce their citizenship and residency laws in an unboased manner. If they are applying teh same rules to Roma folks as they do to Germans or Swedes, but they are simply more of a problem than Germans or Swedes, then that's fine. It's no more bigotry to deport more Gypsies than Swedes if more of them are there illegally than it is bigotry to imprison more men for murder than women, because they commit more murders. It only becomes not fine when they apply different laws and rules for different people. Then it's bigotry.

[Nihil]

89. Well said! (n/t)

[mike r]

72. Why Sarkozy's plan is just a PR stunt:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_gypsy_crackdown

...Those repatriated Thursday left "on a voluntary basis" and were given small sums of money — euro300 ($386) for each adult and euro100 for children — to help them get back on their feet in their home country, a standard French practice, officials said.

Alexandre Le Cleve, a spokesman for Rom Europe, said the expulsions were pointless because nothing prevented those sent back from immediately returning to France, as many have done in the past. "For those who left this morning, they can certainly take a plane as early as tonight and come back to France. There's nothing to prevent this," Le Cleve told Associated Press Television News in an interview. "Obviously, these people come back, they are brought to the Romanian border, then come back to France, can leave again and so on. There are some Roma people who have been sent back seven or eight times, each time receiving the famous euro300."

Adrian Paraipan, a 37-year-old who was aboard the Lyon flight along with his wife and three children, said he planned to return to France. "In two weeks, I will leave again," he said, adding that his family was unable to make a living in Romania. Another person on the flight, Maria Serban, a 29-year-old mother of four, said her family will also consider going back.

France is allowed to repatriate Gypsies from Romania — who as citizens of an EU member state are allowed to circulate freely within the 27-member bloc — if they are unable to prove they can support themselves while in France, Le Cleve said. He suggested, as human rights activists have done in the past, that the voluntary departures help inflate the total number of annual expulsions, a figure the government releases to the media with much fanfare...

[Odin2005]

82. UGH! And the Europeans dare to pontificate about Racism in the US?

It seems like the Gypsies are the ethnic group everyone's still allowed to hate. :(

[jman0]

90. Roma were also basically expelled from NI recently

It's true.
There weren't many of them but here's some links
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8114234.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8105926.stm

Insofar as i have seen, the USA doesn't have a Roma population.
The problems people in Europe have with them is not simply that they don't integrate.
The Roma are not quite like any other minority group i've ever encountered.

They are viewed as professional beggars, liars and thieves.
They appear to contribute nothing and make a nuisance of themselves to the general population.

It sucks to generalise about a people but the Roma seem to import their reputation where ever they go.

[chrisa]

93. Then the police should arrest those who do.

Expelling, scapegoating, or harming any ethnic group as a whole because of who they are is the worst form of national thuggery. It's usually as a result of caving into national ethnic purists, which sorry to say aren't just in the US.

[pampango]

91. Update: NYT: Expulsion of Roma Raises Questions in France

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/world/europe/20france.html?src=me

On Thursday, France flew some 100 Roma home to Romania — people who France insists agreed to leave voluntarily for a flight and a resettlement sum of about $385 instead of facing the chance of forcible expulsion in a month. Robert A. Kushen, executive director of the Budapest-based European Roma Rights Centre, said that by providing this essentially false choice, “the French are trying to insulate themselves from legal challenge, arguing that those who leave are doing so voluntarily and are not being expelled as a group.” Mass expulsions based on ethnicity violate European Union law, Mr. Kushen said, and the failure of France to do individual assessments of each case — as opposed to cursory examinations of papers by the police — also violates European Union rules.

The new campaign has been roundly criticized as political, an effort by Mr. Sarkozy to revive his support on the right of the French political spectrum. The campaign has also been attacked as racist, focusing on ethnic or racial groups rather than individual criminals. The government rejects the criticism as misguided and utopian and says it is trying to fight crime and preserve public order.

But both the Sarkozy campaign and the attacks on it have sometimes confused juvenile delinquents in the poor suburbs, many of them Muslim, with the Roma, who are not French, and the French travelers, who have the right to stay in their own country. French law requires municipalities to provide space for the gens du voyage to park and hook up to electricity and water. But the mayors have been reluctant, and the government admits it has provided space to less than half of the travelers, and many of them have set up illegal camps.

France says it expelled 10,000 Roma last year — two-thirds of the estimated Roma population of France — without all this publicity. But the Roma have been skilled at returning to Romania and Bulgaria, where they say they face worse discrimination and poverty, and then slipping back into France, where, under European Union rules, they can enter without a visa. It is one thing to throw them out for overstaying, he said. “But the person can come back, the next day, completely legally,” he said. What has changed, he said, is the aggressiveness and frequency of the camp clearings.

Interesting that the Roma are in trouble for NOT taking French jobs ("unable to prove that they had full-time work"), while American immigrants are disdained FOR taking American jobs. Just goes to show that when you have an "us vs. them" mentality, it doesn't really matter what "they" do, "we" just want "them" gone.