They won't build it Hardhats vow not to work on controversial mosque near Ground Zero

[RamboLiberal]

Source: NY Daily News

A growing number of New York construction workers are vowing not to work on the mosque planned near Ground Zero.

"It's a very touchy thing because they want to do this on sacred ground," said Dave Kaiser, 38, a blaster who is working to rebuild the World Trade Center site.

"I wouldn't work there, especially after I found out about what the imam said about U.S. policy being responsible for 9/11," Kaiser said.

The grass-roots movement is gaining momentum on the Internet. One construction worker created the "Hard Hat Pledge" on his blog and asked others to vow not to work on the project if it stays on Park Place.





Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/20/2010-08-20_we_wont_build_it_hardhats_say_no_way_they_will_work_on_wtc_mosque.html

---

Hagen for NewsBlaster David Kaiser's hardhat says what he thinks of the mosque planned for Park Place, near Ground Zero.

[monmouth]

1. Screw 'em. Lots of guys out there looking for work...n/t

[Lightning Count]

7. You want to bring in scabs?

Not a good idea.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. So you'd support a union picket based on bigoted fear and ignorance?

I imagine that's a good idea?

[Lightning Count]

20. No, but would you support scabs if you disagreed with the union workers?

?

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. In this instance? Sure. Fuck 'em.

By extension, I take it you'd support a union picket on the construction site of a black community centre in the Jim Crow South?

[Lightning Count]

29. What if they refused to build a Ku Klux Klan meeting center in the South?

Slippery slope. I never support the breaking of unions.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. Then in that instance their principles would be against and not in favour of bigotry.

In this instance it's the opposite. Apparently your moral code extends to supporting bigoted actions when done in the name of organised labour. It's your conscience, I suppose.

[Lightning Count]

35. Moral codes differ.

That is why I do not support breaking the union for any reason. The community center should be built right where they want it. As well as St. Nicholas'. But breaking the union is not the way to do it.

[NickB79]

37. Differing moral codes does not excuse outright bigotry that goes against the US Constitution

And to try and rationalize that it does is pathetic.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

84. Actually it is not

Its private belief vice government belief and there is nothing unconstitutional about it. Also does not mean its right.

[Hansel]

239. I'm pretty sure it is a violation of state and federal civil rights laws.

I would think any construction company hoping for government contracts would avoid a history of blatant discrimination against a large group of people.

Unions also fall under New York civil rights laws and have some responsibilities to uphold them. This act could prove to be counter productive if anyone feels they were rejected from union representation because they were a Muslim. I would think long and hard before pursuing this course if I were heading either the Union or the corporation.

Not smart to so publicly and flagrantly flaunt the civil rights of anyone and I doubt that either the construction company or the union would allow this to stand. Because it is just so dumb.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

244. It would be individual union members, not the construction companies or the unions themselves

There is also the effective mandate that any job this sized be a union job in NYC. The compromise will be that union members who do not want to work on this job for moral/ethical reasons will be back filled by those who do not have such objections.

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. If the union won't work on it, then yes, it is.

Because allowing bigots who happen to be union members to have the final say on whether it's built or not isn't the way to do it either.

[Lightning Count]

39. Try this as an example.

A CEO says that union workers are breaking the company and he has to move to a non-union state to keep the company open. He says that he'll be able to hire an extra 1000 workers after he moves so he is doing the moral thing.

I do not support breaking unions for any reasons.

[Spider Jerusalem]

43. You're confusing the issue by introducing totally inrelated hypotheticals.

We're talking about something concrete and actual; bigots with union cards saying 'no, we won't work on it' because they think their fear and prejudice trumps the First Amendment and the property rights of the Islamic organisation that owns the land (and has received the relevant zoning approval for the community centre).

[Lightning Count]

47. No, I'm talking about moral codes which was the issue.

I don't support what they're doing, but I don't think scabs are the answer. Increased wages and benefits as incentive would be a better path.

[Spider Jerusalem]

52. Why should they be paid more than they'd get to work on any other project?

They receive a standard contractually agreed wage, why should this be different? If they won't do it for standard union wages, then I'm sure someone can be found who will. And it's their own fault if fear and prejudice lead to non-union workers being brought in.

[mikelgb]

55. so you can pay away bigotry?

union first, right or wrong
:crazy:

yes lets incentivize the bigot with more benefits, won't this encourage the worker to refuse to work for 'moral' reasons, that is unless you pay up?

[MedicalAdmin]

57. If this is a moral issue isn't this exactly the same as the doctor...

who won't provide follow up care for women who have had abortions, pharmacists who refuse to fill birth control prescriptions, etc., all on "moral" grounds.

Frankly I think ethics are the way to go. Morals are too mutable.

[Amaril]

64. So you support bribing people into doing the right thing?

Really?

[burnsei sensei]

248. But that's a central tenet of 3rd Way ideology.

Social, political, racial and religious divisions can be countered by incentivizing the people.
That's what Obama believes, and what Bill Clinton believes.

[No Elephants]

175. No. You're equating a legitimate work related beef with a refusal to work based

strictly on hating on Muslim AMERICANS. Failed analogy.

[CLANG]

206. Fuck your moral codes - they don't hold water against secular goverment.

[Tempest]

203. That's why I stopped responding to his posts

As soon as he knows he's starting to lose the debate or his position makes him look bad, he moves the goal posts.

[polmaven]

97. Your example has NOTHING

whatsoever to do with this case!

[cleanhippie]

230. Now you are moving the goalposts and creating a strawman.

[Violet_Crumble]

199. There is no union behind this thing. It's an individual doing it... n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

222. ^pantload^

[cleanhippie]

228. Not in these two instances they don't!

You are making this a union issue when its not a union issue at all. If someones "moral code" included hate and bigotry, I don't give a rats ass if they are union or not.

[LanternWaste]

69. I imagine many people...

I imagine many people blindly support an every aspect of an organization, regarldess of personal morality or ethics.



Union pension money being diverted into the a risky financial pool? No problem... I'll sit down and shut up because I support the union.

Union crew working on new construction on an endangered ecosystem? No problem... I support the union.

Union loggers deforesting pristine wilderness that I'd previously fought to keep open to the public? No problem... I'll sit down and shut up because I support the union.

(The above is what I would infer more correctly as an ethical slippery slope)

[No Elephants]

177. What organization is the poster supporting? Rednecks R Us? No union has taken a stand on this.

[TomClash]

77. Building a Muslim community center is the same as building a Klan meeting center?

Islam is a religion practiced by over a billion people of every race and color. In what way is it like the Klan?

[jberryhill]

93. Must we be so facile all of the time?

The comparison was not muslims=klan.

The point is that since when did construction workers refuse to work on a building of any sort because of some religious or political difference with the eventual users of the building.

I swear, the knee-jerkiness around here can be astounding sometimes.

[TomClash]

184. Actually it was

Read the exchange between Spider and Lightning.

[polmaven]

98. And...

The religion of Islam was not responsible for the attack on 9/11.

[TomClash]

181. Indeed

I thought that was obvious, but you were right to point that out.

[KamaAina]

81. Uh-huh. I'm so sure the Klan would go out of their way to hire union labor.

Especially in the South, where unions are so powerful.

:sarcasm:

[Fearless]

53. +1

[russspeakeasy]

105. Absolutely.....

[frylock]

27. how to put this....

hell. fucking. yes. i support unions 110%, but i do not support the bigotry of ignorant fuckwads.

[Lightning Count]

30. You support union workers when they agree with you.

So that is obviously not 100%. I have no problem with building the community center(and St. Nicholas' for that matter), but breaking the union is not the way.

[MedicalAdmin]

56. What is the union position on this.

Just because some malcontent, crank, bigoted chowderheads decide to "take a pledge" online doesn't mean shit if the union position is "a jobs a job. We take it, we build it and we do it better than anyone."

I suspect that this is a tempest in a teapot but does anyone have the straight skinny on this?

[frylock]

62. the union is breaking itself on this..

civil rights are non-negotiable. civil rights trump my support of unions.

[No Elephants]

182. I don't know of a single union that has spoken on this yet. Do you?

[jberryhill]

218. The Int'l Brotherhood Of Amalgamated Strawmwen, Local 13 /nt

[No Elephants]

180. Bullshit. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about evil v decency

I'd stand with a Republican union worker. But bigotry is not okay, period. Neither is a wildcat work action based on nothing but bigotry, That has nothing to do with unions, so take your strawman somewhere where he might dazzle someone.

[monmouth]

28. I know I would. Union guys are not upset about wages, it's the Community

Center. They want to strike an abomination, go to Wall Street. Ignorant a$$holes in this case. Bring on the scabs!!

[petronius]

42. A bunch of construction workers signing an internet pledge is not a union

The only union representative mentioned in the article said that his union has no position.

But even if it was a union, I would not blindly support any entity when that entity was in the wrong...

[jberryhill]

96. After the Union kicks out Muslim members

...then I'd be willing to believe that any union anywhere would have a religious objection to constructing a building.

It's a silly point to believe that any self-respecting union would take a stand for bigotry.

[No Elephants]

174. Yes. Mom and Dad: ILGWU Me: AFl-CIO (when not self employed).

It's not as though they're striking for wages, benefits, or other benefits, or a principle I support, or even following union policy or union leadership. they're simply refusing to work bc of bigotry against a minority. that's no reason for a wildcat work action of any kind.

Fuck all bigots. Fuck em twice.

[alfredo]

103. But are these guys really union workers or just right wing shills?

The guy on TV today did not look like a guy that works outdoors. He had no tan.

[boppers]

195. Nightshift workers look like that.

Harder to get a tan working 2nd/3rd shift.

[alfredo]

208. In my little burg, come 5 PM you were clocking out.

Hate night shifts.

[boppers]

209. I don't look at the tan, I look at the hands.

Hard work changes one's hands, regardless of shift. If you get good at it, you can tell a person's trade with a handshake.

[alfredo]

211. I have farmer/mechanic/postal worker hands. Now they

are soft from 10 years of retirement. The scars remain, but the calluses are long gone.

[boppers]

213. Bones take longer to change.

Also, unlike callouses, bone doesn't "un-grow".

[alfredo]

231. Yeah my bones show the ravages of years of labor. M fingers are crooked

The knuckles enlarged

My father was an auto upholsterer, and his hands looked awful. They were gnarled clubs.

[pipoman]

220. Big city construction sites run 24/7

a sky scraper would take decades to build on 8 hour days.

[alfredo]

232. Happy hour starts at 5

[iamthebandfanman]

15. wow, you have no clue. n/t

[EC]

71. It's not the unions doing this - it's individuals

put them on other jobs or lay them off...

[TomClash]

76. I think you are conflating unions with a few of their members

They are not the same thing.

Unions built the Goldman building here. They will build a mosque.

[sabrina 1]

100. No, someone needs to educate these people It is NOT ON SACRED GROUND.

The Union leaders need to be brought in and have their minds purged of Fox News and Teabagger lies. Then these guys who I am sure need the work, can just go on about their business.

[No Elephants]

178. Are you saying all union members are bigots, so scabs are the only alternative?

The post to which you replied said nothing about scabs and you know it.

[Violet_Crumble]

198. Scabs? I'm pretty sure you don't know what the term means...

I read the article and it made it clear that this isn't being organised by a union, but by some individual. He can choose not to work on any job for whatever reasons he may have, but anyone who decides to is most definately NOT a scab. A scab is someone who crosses a union organised picket line during a strike.

[PDJane]

2. What the hell is wrong with this picture?

So much for freedom....if whoever it is happens to be the currently demonized group.

What, you can't have Allah in the place where you worship money???

[ixion]

3. extremists...

*facepalm*

They're no better than the system they reject. They are, in fact, the same system.

[nc4bo]

18. They just continue to slither up and out of every dark crevice imaginable don't they? nt

[wryter2000]

4. Riiiight

I guess those dumbasses don't need a paycheck.

[BeFree]

5. So

These guys hate America? They can't read and understand the constitution?

Same as it ever was. Our founders knew it and tried to help these jerks.

[Lightning Count]

8. Knew this would happen.

The union construction workers said pretty much from the beginning that they wouldn't hammer one nail.

[BeFree]

13. BS

The union didn't say nothing. A few asswipes, maybe. But the Union? BS.

[Lightning Count]

19. The union workers have been saying this since the beginning.

But not the union leadership. We will see how it develops.

[BeFree]

41. OH?

You speak for union workers all of a sudden?

But of course you have a dozen links supporting what I call your BS?

[Lightning Count]

44. We will just have to wait a see.

All I've heard is innuendo which I readily admit.

[BeFree]

49. That's better

Glad to see you are not blind. Of course I hardly know you and you could be full of it, eh?

[Lightning Count]

50. Or I could be actually blind :). nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

95. "The" union workers? Who? All of them? Half of them? 27.19% of them?

"The" my ass.

[Dogtown]

83. Sounds like wishful thinking.

And you're trying to bait us w/ your "union-support" hypotheticals.

Why don't you wait to post again until the union actually takes a stance?
Of course, if you agree to that, we'll never hear from you again.


And that's a good thing.

[SnakeEyes]

63. Umm

Construction workers choosing not to work on a project that they disagree with has nothing to do with the Constitution.

[BeFree]

65. Eh?

No, they can't be fired, but they can be called anti-American, and it sticks.

[No Elephants]

173. Right. It has nothing to do with unions or being union workers, either, if indeed they even are.

Has to do with being dumbass, bigoted RW shills, like some who post at DU from time to time. Bigotry threads seem to attract them, much like sugar attracts other insects

Or maybe they post here all the time under other names, but are such cowards that their screen name has to have a screen name, when they're flying their bigot flag.


There's just no accounting for some pond scum, is there?

[SnakeEyes]

252. Well yes, there are people like that here on DU.

[ensho]

6. too bad. there are plenty more americans that will do the work

there will be better harmony for the mosque if the haters don't do the work

[Lightning Count]

9. Scabs are the answer!

Not a good idea.

[eShirl]

11. how about a non-bigot union crew

[Lightning Count]

17. If that can be found than that would work fine.

But we should never try to do an end-run around the union.

[NickB79]

36. But an end run around the Constitution, that's just fine, right?

:sarcasm:

You know what? I'm a Teamster, and the more I think about this, the more I think that scabs are OK as a final solution if it comes to that. My union has been good to me, but if they want to be racist assholes, screw them.

[Lightning Count]

40. And then they'll realize how much cheaper scabs are and how they want to work.

Unlike those other guys. Maybe we should use them for more jobs in the city. Geez Louise.

[NickB79]

68. And the unions would only have themselves to blame for that

But I'm sure they'd blame the scabs or anyone else they could point a finger at if/when that hypothetical result came to be.

See, this is why we CAN'T defend bad behavior even if they are our union brothers and sisters, because the black eye they give to themselves is put on ALL of us.

Remember: with great power comes great responsibility. Using that power in a way that helps to deny Americans a constitutional right is against everything unions have stood for in this country for the past century.

[MedicalAdmin]

61. Scabs are NEVER the answer.

But correct me if I am wrong on this, but doesn't the job have to be bid? And if it is bid and accepted by a union firm, then union workers are going to do the work, but if a non-union firm wins the bid then they do the work, don't they?

So either way, there shouldn't be any scabs.

FYI - neither I or anyone on my payroll will cross a picket line. EVER.

[petronius]

106. A union isn't involved here - it's individual workers exercising their

1st Amendment right to spout bigotry.

But even if it was a union declining to work, people who accept a job after a union refuses it for non-work-related reasons aren't scabs in any meaningful sense. And, a picket line (if one occurs) that has nothing to do with the job isn't worthy of respect...

[John Kerry VonErich]

185. Then watch them strike .

nt

[ensho]

73. did you see 'scab' in my writing?

no you didn't

I'm pro unions

[Warren Stupidity]

223. Which union has announced this boycott?

[chimpymustgo]

10. American Taliban.

[mikelgb]

14. fucking bigots

[iamthebandfanman]

16. Fuck em, others will do the work.

So much for caring about jobs eh you nuts?

[semillama]

21. Some things are more important.

I know it's hard to hear when you're a Union supporter, and I am, but some things are bigger. If no union will work on this site for the stated reasons, then they are in the wrong.

[Lightning Count]

24. What else is more important than unions?

Cheap goods? Executive bonuses? Cars with heated cup holders? Geez Louise.

[GliderGuider]

33. Your Constitution? nt

[RantinRavin]

66. And it seems the union workers

are invoking their Constitutional rights. There is nothing in the Constitution that requires a person to work on a specific project.

[jberryhill]

188. What Union Has Endorsed This? None.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

85. Yes but there are no Consitutional issues here

This is private belief and actions

[GliderGuider]

89. In that case, if no union will do the work scabs are fine with me.

:evilgrin:

[eShirl]

46. What is more important than Constitutional rights?

[krabigirl]

22. Creepy.

[mikelgb]

23. said Dave Kaiser, 38, a blaster who is working to rebuild the World Trade Center sit

that wouldn't want your racist ass builing it anyway, I'm sure they want it built sooner than a decade from now

[Lightning Count]

26. The lazy union worker meme?

Unexpected.

[Chan790]

31. I suspect...

that was the "WTC site is still a jagged hole in the ground almost a decade later" meme.

[mikelgb]

48. indeed

know your memes!

[mikelgb]

45. Look, I am sure your Union is perfect in every way, but

does that make all unions and their member infallible?

Sorry this guy is a bigot first and the fact that he is the member of a union does not make him special

nobody here is calling for scabs or calling them lazy, I was simply making a jab at the fact that there is still a big fucking hole in America's sacred hallowed ground

[haele]

104. Has nothing to do with the "meme"-the union guy mentioned above is already working another union job

- one that will not be finished by the time the community center will be finished and operational, by all indications. He probably wouldn't work on the project he's railing against unless he ended up available for it.
That commenter was talking about someone who is ignorant, if not outright bigoted - not lazy.

You know, there are plenty of reasonably well-educated, hard-working, family-raising, honest, thrifty, and "great to have a beer with" blue-collar and/or union workers who are also reactionary ignoramuses allowing themselves to get hypnotized by the false patriotism of Faux and Friends (along with all the other flag-waving, cross hugging hucksters).

Haele

[Chulanowa]

216. Okay, get the fuck over it

"The union" has said nothing. Some workers who are union have said they will not work on a project. Know what happens to them if they keep refusing and the union itself doesn't back them? They get sacked.

Now, you tell me. How many unions out there are going to bend over to accept the principles of a few bigots within their ranks? More directly, how many Muslim members do you think this union has? I'd bet quite a few; plenty of Middle Eastern immigrants and their families end up working construction.

These men are union members, sure. They're also douche bags who are promoting disunity on the principle of ethnic and religious hatred. if htye want to sit the job out, well, they can file their two week's notice, 'cause I guarantee the union is NOT going to back them.

[burnsei sensei]

249. Haven't heard that for a while.

And I never thought I would at a liberal website.

[Matariki]

34. I really suspect the media pushing this thing. What's "a growing number"?

you could have a few people who claim to be NYC construction workers add their names to a website petition and the news can legitimately call it "A growing number of New York construction workers".

I like the term 'nontroversy' for this. I blame the media.

[polmaven]

101. Well said.

Did you see the poll? New yorkers may not be a sgainst it a the msm would have us think. As a matter of fact, SOME news outlets actually have saind that most of the "families" do not oppose this project.


A Landmarks panel vote clears the way for a mosque near Ground Zero. Is it an appropriate location for the mosque?


Yes, there is no reason why it should not be there. 76%

No, it does not belong so near the site of the 9/11 attacks. 24%

I'm not sure. 0%

[seattleblue]

102. Where is the link to that?

[polmaven]

107. In the OP

n/t

[zonkers]

51. Ha Ha! Don't worry, those dudes will do it... for the right price. Trust me.... a NYer.

[wookie72]

54. are there no Arab-American building contractors?

Just askin'.

And my guess is that a strong union would tell their members to STFU and go to work.

[No Elephants]

189. Muslim American contractors would be more relevant.

I know Coptic Egyptian Americans, Christian Arab Americans and Jewish Arab Americans who are not fond of Muslims for reasons having less than nothing to do with 911.

[wookie72]

229. Fair enough.

I read somewhere that the majority of Muslim Americans are not Arab, and the majority of Arab Americans are not Muslim. This was from a 1993 survey, so it may be out of date.

However, when Donna Shalala can be detained for being Lebanese, Arab Americans might want to stick together regardless of religion.

[MikeW]

58. lot of people in here dont understand that

a lot of those jobs require a thing called a "license".

In NYC you'll never get on the job without one.

[wookie72]

91. And I'm guessing those licenses

are subject to anti-discrimination laws.

[MikeW]

168. good luck going down that road ... lol delusional

[wookie72]

179. Deluisional that civil rights be upheld?

If you say so.

[pipoman]

221. What is delusional are people who insist this is a civil rights issue..

it isn't. Civil rights protect the workers too. Requiring the workers to perform non-essential jobs based on government licensing requirements would be a civil rights violation. So, actually, what you are advocating is the actual civil rights issue, not the refusal by individuals to participate in anything which the don't wish to participate in, regardless the reason.

[wookie72]

225. Lunch counters couldn't refuse paying customers

How is this different?

[pipoman]

226. This isn't a business refusing, it is individuals..

it would be like requiring a bigot to eat at an integrated lunch counter.

[wookie72]

227. Then the companies have every right to fire them,

union or not.

[pipoman]

234. I do believe that the union would be able, in fact maybe obligated, to dismiss them

someone here may know better than I about that. My only point is that their not wanting to work has nothing to do with civil rights.

[Hansel]

240. Actually it does.

Because their stated reason for not wanting to do the work is the religion of the people they are doing the work for. Thus they are refusing services based on the religion of the people they would be providing the services for. That is the "creed" in protected classes.

Any company with over 15 employees and/or who have government contracts are required to adhere to civil rights laws. This flagrant flaunting of the civil rights of a large group of people would not endear these corporations to government officials if they were to bid for future government contracts. It also could serve as a very public demonstration of a pattern of discrimination. It could very well be the catalyst for suits where construction workers of the Muslim faith have felt discriminated against or indeed were discriminated against in consideration for a job or treatment on the job.

No company or organization (including Unions which are also required to adhere to Civil Rights law) with any common sense is going to allow their workers to use their organization to make such a public bigoted personal stand against the civil rights of anyone. They are going to want the business of other Muslims, anyone who support the Muslims, and the government.

If they are fired it will be because they refuse to go to work AND because of the reason that they refused. Major corporations and unions cannot take the risk of being seen as violating Civil Rights laws. It's just not worth it.

[pipoman]

243. While I see your point

that someone may try to use this in a future legal action. What I am seeing in this story are individuals who are saying they will not work. Is it bigoted? Maybe, it maybe a lot of things...it isn't a civil rights violation at this point, imo. Even if an employer can't participate in a contract because they don't have enough workers who will participate it wouldn't be. The employer is under no obligation to fire anyone for refusing to work. The union can't control individual employees beyond simply asking them to work and maybe threatening to dismiss them. I'm just not seeing this as any type of legal issue, civil or criminal. A violation would occur if someone is forced to work against their will.

[Turborama]

59. How about giving a bunch of Mexicans temporary work visas just to make their heads totally explode?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw">
(Click on image for NYT article)

[chrisa]

75. That would be the best.

I would love to see the lines of trashy, racist bigots spewing their garbage and holding up "coded-racist" signs, like in the Tea Party protests, or the Minutemen protests. (These same people are also racist against Mexicans too, I would bet, which would make it even funnier).

[John Kerry VonErich]

60. Gotta agree with Lightning

It will take a vote on this though.

[No Elephants]

196. You find straw men persuasive? He or she made this a union issue when no union has spoken on it,

And he or she also pretended that scabs were the only alternative. Why? All union workers are so full of hate that they'll all wildcat and risk their livelihood?

Yeah, I'd wait to see how this issue develops before I'd throw around terms like union and scab, John. Right now, all we see are urban redneck Republican bigots (Please pardon all that redundance.)

[bushmeister0]

67. Are we sure this isn't Rupert creating the news again?

Is this a real news story, or is this just all about some right wing douche with a blog, who, naturally, never even pounded a nail in his life?

[EC]

70. Fine , fire the fools and hire guys that need the job

and are reasonable...hallowed ground?

[Lagomorph]

246. If they can do this, they can work where ever they want...

...otherwise, they build what the union tells them to build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFKPylk2gQo&feature=player_embedded

[Turbineguy]

72. "grass roots"

The Right Wing is just getting better at propaganda, that's all.

[Blue_Tires]

74. and if his union overrules him and decides to work on the site

what will he do then??

[ProgressiveProfessor]

87. The union will do extactly that

too many members without work and if they let these kinds of jobs go, it will snowball.

Members have the option to turn down assignments and still maintain seniority/standing. Let those who feel strongly do just that.

[valerief]

78. Growing number thanks to Fox propaganda and other M$M echoing. nt

[IndianaGreen]

79. Two blocks away from WTC site is not sacred ground

and if WTC ground were a sacred ground, we would be building a temple on it and not a plethora of shops and businesses.

[Hansel]

241. Technically the WTC site is the scene of a horrific crime.

It's stretching it to even call it sacred ground.

[KamaAina]

80. These are the same people who put up a giant inflatable rat outside any non-union construction site.

It's really cool. You can see it for blocks.

But they're going to refuse a job, then put up the rat? :shrug:

[nyc 4 Biden]

82. IGNORANCE & BIGOTRY on Display. n/t

[Sherman A1]

86. It's their choice

but, I am willing to be other Union Members will step up and take the jobs.

[Hansel]

242. I'm going with this.

I know some who would love to take them.

[Jefferson23]

88. Ignorant fools on display. n/t

[savalez]

90. The story title should read:

"Fox News and Right Wing Radio Hardhat listeners vow not to work on controversial mosque near Ground Zero"

[jwirr]

92. Wonder if these boys would have built a German Lutheran Church

in 1917-18? We German Americans were hated for no really good reason because of our genetic origins. Same with the Japanese citizens of this country. All of this just sickens me. I am guessing that is also why KO is so hot on this issue.

[jberryhill]

94. And some pharmacists won't dispense birth control

...and some doctors won't treat gays

...and, and, and

What a bunch of nitwits we are becoming.

[No Elephants]

186. Becoming?

About 20 years ago, no gays could serve in the military, closeted or not.

About 45 years ago, we had Jim Crow laws. About 65 years ago, we interned Japanese Americans and had a racially segregated military that banned gays.

About 80 years ago, the KKK got off a train in Long Branch NJ in full regalia to, um, protest immigration. And from 1600 to 1863 slavery was legal and we were slaughtering indigenous peoples.

Things are looking up, my friend!

[polmaven]

99. Just watched the "leader"

of this group, Andy Sullivan (I think that is his last name).....he too spoke about how close it really is and that this 13 story building will "loom" over the WTC site. He also said he was at the meeting when it was decided that the building was not to be declared an historic relic, not to be torn down, and all about how, on one side, he watched "an elderly couple" CRYING AND "clutching" a picture of their son who had died in the tower. On the other side, the planners of the building were smiling, high-fiving, and having a grand old time. "I felt like it was 9/11/ all over again"!!!!!!

I really had to take some deep breaths to not throw my laptop at the TV screen! What a freaking ass-hat!

[madmax]

212. I saw heard that guy and thought

He's fucking making this shit up! Just too much damn drama.

[polmaven]

219. I had the same thought.

Between that American flag hard hat, and his story to imply that the Mulims were somehow dancing on the grave of the 9/11/ victims was absolutely disgusting.

[sabra]

108. Some Construction Workers Refuse To Build Mosque

Source: myfoxny

MYFOXNY.COM - Some union construction workers say they will refuse to help build an Islamic mosque and cultural center planned for Lower Manhattan.

The BlueCollarCorner blog has started what is called thE 911 Hard Hat Pledge to rally union and no-union tradesmen to refuse to work the site near Ground Zero.

Andy Sullivan, a field super for A big union construction outfit, is behind the pledge.

Sullivan wrote, "My fellow Americans stand together and pledge not to work this hurtful insensitive project. Without us this sacrilige cannot be built."

Read more: http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/manhattan/construction-workers-refuse-to-build-mosque-20100820-lgf

[DavidDvorkin]

109. Sacrilege?

Shithead.

[Vincardog]

110. IF they do not want the work give it to someone who does. This BS has to stop

[Deep13]

111. "Without us this sacrilige cannot be built." *edit*

Kind of tipped his hand about his motivation. It's not so much that Muslims were behind 9/11 as the project is an afront to his religious sensibilities. I guess that is to be expected when two or more groups of people each claim know the absolute truth about divinity and exclusivity is part of those beliefs.

While no one is obligated to work on any project, I doubt this will prevent it from being built.

P.S.

This does illustrate part of what Howard Dean was talking about yesterday. If the stated purpose of this building is to build a bridge between Muslims and non-Muslims in this country, it's not working.

[NoNothing]

112. Agree

The lack of funding will prevent it from being built instead.

[No Elephants]

161. Where can we donate?

Username: NoNothing

Send private message Add to buddy list

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Member since Nov 16th 2004
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City Daquiri

[SPedigrees]

118. If you're working for a construction co and they send you to

build a mosque or a hotel or an apartment building you are obligated to do so. The alternatives are request a different assignment (possible but not likely to be granted,) quit, or be fired for insubordination.

[John Kerry VonErich]

124. Not as simple as that.

The city's hardhats are unionized.

[seattleblue]

133. LOL. Not in NYC. Unions control the construction sector there.

[No Elephants]

159. Yet, Rudy Giuliani said he was sure they could find someone to build it and he should know.

[Deep13]

136. These are union guys, so I'm not sure how easy it is to just fire them...

...if they are sticking together on this.

And freedom from complusive labor is just as fundamental of a right as freedom of religion. That's what I meant.

[No Elephants]

156. Of course it's "not working." The building doesn't exist yet.

And, while Dean is mostly good (IMO), his stand on this is bigoted--and this is not the first time I've heard him be "odd" about minority groups.


His advice this time was to compromise. Compromise? Why? For being Muslim after 911? 1.4 billion Muslims are somehow pariahs bc of 19 men who idolized Osama as Squeaky Fromme idolized Charles Manson and as Branch Davidians idolized David Koresh? What the hell do the 911 attackers have to do with Islam or with New Yorkers who happened to be Muslim before and after 911. Assuming they have anything to "compromise" for is bigotry, period.

Compromise? How? By converting and building a YMCA instead? Maybe if African Americans had only compromised with the KKK, there would have been no lynchings? The only way to compromise with irrational bigotry is to (A) give in again and again and again until you have no place left to run or (B) stand firm.

[Deep13]

171. Really? In what way was Howard Dean being bigotted? nt

[The Stranger]

162. Fuck Howard Dean. The perception and purpose was perverted by the hate-mongers.

THAT is why it's "not working."

[Deep13]

172. Bullshit.

What he did was provide liberal politicians with an alternative to "taking the bait." All this 1st Amendment stuff isn't not going to change the fact that this project has become the 2010 version of Dukakis opposing the death penalty. Those defending the project may be right in principal, but we are still going to get slaughtered by it.

Dean conceded the 1st Amendment right to build. He conceded that the RW hate-mongers have no place in the discussion. He said that three or four times on Olbermann because Keith apparently did not understand Dean's answer the first two or three times he asked. To say people don't have a right to have hard feelings toward Islam (and that's what we are talking about--an Islamic institution, not individual Muslims) after a number of Muslims did what they did precisely because they were Islamists is a fantasy. All Dean suggested was discussing the matter with their neighbors.

[The Stranger]

187. Horseshit.

No one is going to "get slaughtered" if they simply stand up for what is right for a change, which is something most Democrats just can't seem to do.

To paint a religion of a billion people based on a subset of 19 people is bigoted, plain and simple.

But to join in (nay, to condone) a coordinated Right-Wing attack on a group of people from that religion who are seeking to reach out to others in peace is the most blatant, bigoted, anti-American hatred that there can be.

I would expect better out of Howard Dean.

[chrisa]

113. Funny how some people are told that it's "bad," and they instantly believe it.

In part because of Fox Noise propaganda.

[No Elephants]

158. If so, t hen about 20% of DU or more must be watching Fox, along with Dean and Reid.

[Snotcicles]

114. Looks to me like that guy is a Company Super not a Union Rep. What a sham. nt

[John Kerry VonErich]

126. Even so

If he's a union man in general, he can bring it up for a vote. He and his agreers have plenty of ammo. Don't underestemate them.

[Snotcicles]

143. Typically supervisors are management, not part of the bargaining unit.nt

[Snotcicles]

144. "Andy Sullivan, a field super for A big union construction outfit"

Is he part of the membership? if he is, he may be suggesting a wildcat strike. In my union, Wildcat is grounds for Union expulsion and employment termination.

[bowens43]

115. I am so ashamed of my country.

we are a country of buffoons, bigots and babbling idiots............

[sasquuatch55]

120. We also suffer from Panphobia!

nt

[Deep13]

138. really?

[Deep13]

137. Recognizing someone has a legal right to religion...

...is not the same as an obligation to actively support a religion. After all, a lot of those guys probably belong to a different religion with its own claims of divine exclusivity. Don't they have any rights to freedom of religion? By insisting that they have to put their own religious feelings aside in order to indulge someone else's, you yourself are being prejudiced.

[Aramchek]

116. then those bigots won't be hired. simple as that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

127. Union rules may come into play

[Aramchek]

128. The Union doesn't allow bigotry, either. I'm sure they'll be able to find someone to fill the job.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

129. Errr...given the history of some of them, I would not be so sure. However you are right that a way

will be found to make sure its a union job site

[jberryhill]

191. So Unions Are Historically Bigots

Learn something new every day, I do.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

238. Some unions do have that in their past, mostly racial. I don't know of any today

There was also some counter protesting early in the Vietnam era done under union banner.

[seattleblue]

134. Do you know the history of construction unions in New York City?

[Aramchek]

147. My point is, the construction will proceed with or without these workers

[seattleblue]

148. And your point is wrong.

You don't know NYC. No construction project would proceed an inch if the unions were in opposition. The unions would stop it. The city would stop it. The construction companies would stop it. Would not happen.

[Aramchek]

149. then they'll get their asses sued. and they'll lose. then they'll have to build it.

The Construction will proceed.

[seattleblue]

151. Under what legal theory will they be sued?

No one has to work on a particular job in this country. If you don't like someone, for whatever reason, no one can force you to work for them.

[Aramchek]

153. do you really think they won't be able to find a contractor to do th job?

or do you just not want the job done?

[seattleblue]

155. First I think it is irrelevant whether someone "wants the job done"

This group, as of their last report, has raised a grand total of $18,000 of the $100 million needed for construction costs. I don't think it will ever be built even if everyone agreed on it. No they will not be able to find a contractor in NYC to do the job if the unions opposed it. They are just too powerful. Also the city inspectors who generally support the construction unions would find a thousand and one things wrong with the construction and it would die a death of a thousand cuts.

[Aramchek]

160. and yet, it will be built. and it will be evidence of the power of the Constitution

this is a Nation of Laws.
not of bigots

[seattleblue]

167. I am a realist not an idealist but good luck with that belief.

[No Elephants]

165. Wanna bet this bs will help fundraising? I'll donate now. Probably wouldn't have last month.

I'm not independently wealthy, I don't live in NY and I'm not Muslim. So, before I heard about this shit, I had little incentive to donate. Neither did Olberman. Or Franken.


But, give a bleeding heart liberal a blatant injustice and they start digging under couch cushions and breaking open piggy banks. And that's not counting Muslims around the world, some of whom have some very full piggy banks. Well, some kind of banks, anyway.

[Amaril]

154. No, but you also can't block a project........

.....based on discrimination against a protected class and expect to walk away from it without consequence.

[seattleblue]

157. Refusing to work on a project and encouraging others not to do it is not blocking a project.

Completely legal.

[No Elephants]

166. Are you assuming every construction worker is an independent contractor?

Because, if you are an employee of a full service general contracting company and you refuse to fulfill work you're assigned, you'll be fired for cause. Also perfectly legal. And a reason to deny unemployment.

I don't envison the imam trying to act as his own project manager or general and looking to hire AAAA Electrical. He'll do fine.

[seattleblue]

169. That doesn't happen in NYC.

I am well aware of the employment practices in most parts of the country and you are correct there. It does not apply in NYC however.

[MikeW]

170. LOL

1 - You apparently arnt from NYC ... there is NO CONSTRUCTION without the teamsters.

2 - Most of those guys are independent contractors they can pick any job they please so
there is NO FORCING them to build anything.

[LiberalFighter]

146. I wonder how many of their members are Muslims?

I'm sure there are some. And most likely the union has it in their charter and constitution a prohibition of religious discrimination.

[burnsei sensei]

152. Really?

You have not read much about the history of the American labor movement.

[jberryhill]

190. Do those unions allow Muslims to join?

Or are they, to the core, as shitheaded as the individual in this story?

[No Elephants]

193. As you know, unions, have a long history of

excluding women and minorities Building trades are no exception. However, unions also have a long history of saving lives and limbs. No organization or individual is 100% perfect in every realm, not even I. Or you.

[valerief]

117. No problem. More H1Bs, please? nt

[Rod85]

119. They could use the H-2 Visa program for workers

They could request H-2 Visa workers instead to do the work if Americans don't want to do it.

I'm a stout Union supporter but if they decide to use politics to deny work, our President could use the
H-2 Visa program and allow the mosque project to bring in foreign workers who would build it.

I'm saddened the Unionized workers are not opening their hearts and using the project to put Americans
to work.

[drm604]

121. Once again, people are working against their own interests (a paying job)

due to bigotry and misguided self-righteousness.

When will people learn?

[superconnected]

122. Let's say a group of Christians hijack planes, run them into buildings and kill

a whole lot of people(Islamics and Atheists etc.) in the name of Christianity.

Do you then put a Christian church on the site?

Okay this is two blocks away.

However, the Hijackers killed all the people in the planes and the trade center with the belief that they were "Infidels" and in the name of Islam.

Is it really right to put a Mosque there now, after they did that? No.

But, this is two blocks away. And America is about freedom of religion. Ultimately I will say build the mosque because I believe in freedom of religion as well as religous tolerance - something that those Islamics who caused 911 didn't have. But, it's still bad taste for the Muslims to do this, since all those people were killed in the name of Islam and yeah a whole lot of the killed were Christians and Jews. I'm just saying be a tad sensitive people, but still build the mosque - only because this is America and not a religiously intolerant place like Arab Islamic countries.

[Douglas Carpenter]

141. a NYT article about Imam Feisal and his plan for the center written before the crazy hate campaign

Muslim Prayers and Renewal Near Ground Zero


By RALPH BLUMENTHAL and SHARAF MOWJOOD
Published: December 8, 2009


snip:

“ As a Sufi, Imam Feisal follows a path of Islam focused more on spiritual wisdom than on strict ritual, and as a bridge builder, he is sometimes focused more on cultivating relations with those outside his faith than within it.

snip:

Those who have worked with him say if anyone could pull off what many regard to be a delicate project, it would be Imam Feisal, whom they described as having built a career preaching tolerance and interfaith understanding.

“He subscribes to my credo: ‘Live and let live,’ ” said Rabbi Arthur Schneier, spiritual leader of Park East Synagogue on East 67th Street.

snip:

The mayor’s director of the Office of Immigrant Affairs, Fatima Shama, went further. “We as New York Muslims have as much of a commitment to rebuilding New York as anybody,” Ms. Shama said. Imam Feisal’s wife, Daisy Khan, serves on an advisory team for the National September 11 Memorial and Museum, and Lynn Rasic, a spokeswoman for the memorial, said, “The idea of a cultural center that strengthens ties between Muslims and people of all faiths and backgrounds is positive.”


snip:

“ Building so close is owning the tragedy. It’s a way of saying: ‘This is something done by people who call themselves Muslims. We want to be here to repair the breach, as the Bible says.’ ”

The F.B.I. said Imam Feisal had helped agents reach out to the Muslim population after Sept. 11. “We’ve had positive interactions with him in the past,” said an agency spokesman, Richard Kolk. Alice Hoagland of Las Gatos, Calif., whose son, Mark Bingham, was killed in the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, said, “It’s quite a bold step buying a piece of land adjacent to ground zero,” but she said she considered plans for the site “a noble effort.”

snip:

Joy Levitt, executive director of the Jewish Community Center, said the group would be proud to be a model for Imam Feisal at ground zero. “For the J.C.C. to have partners in the Muslim community that share our vision of pluralism and tolerance would be great,” she said.

Mr. El-Gamal agreed. “What happened that day,” he said, “was not Islam.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html?_r=1

link to the cordoba intiative:

http://www.cordobainitiative.org /

link to Imam Feisal Press Conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIPO7CVflA


/

Mayor Michael Bloomberg: 'Sad Day For America' If Ground Zero Mosque Plan Is Killed

Mayor Michael Bloomberg: 'Sad Day For America' If Ground Zero Mosque Plan Is Killed

NEW YORK — New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg says it would be "a sad day for America" if opponents successfully kill plans for a mosque proposed near the World Trade Center site.

Bloomberg has been among a few outspoken elected officials supporting the plans for an Islamic center and mosque two blocks from ground zero.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/bloomberg-sad-day-for-ame_n_683692.html

"Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11 and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values – and play into our enemies' hands – if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists – and we should not stand for that." Mayor Michael Bloomberg

[superconnected]

145. I'm not against the Mosque. I still think they're a bit tactless for building it there even with

what you're posting. They could do their live-and-let live with posters on buses etc.

I'm pro all religions building anything they want anywhere in America even when it's tactless, which this still is.

[No Elephants]

192. Anyone who can't distinguish--sharply--between Al Qaeeda and Muslims should sit

down and shut up--the sooner the better.


Osama Bin Ladin's motives are self-aggrandisement and politics. He uses Islam to manipulate Muslims, like Manson used stuff to manipulate his band of killers. Islam had nothing to do with those attacks. Neither did Muslim New Yorkers, ffs.

[Bandit]

150. Let's say a group of Christians, dressed in white robes with hoods

terrorized a segment of society for years upon years. Should Union workers refuse to build any Christian Churches anywhere? :shrug: I am sick of America's utter stupidity. Religion played no role in 9-11 what-so-ever. If it were a relifious cause one would think they would habve bombed some churches instead of a Trade Center and the Pentagon. It was a Political attack, nothing more and the criminals that did it just happened to belong to a religion..

[Warren Stupidity]

224. RW Christian Holy Warrior Tim McVeigh? nt.

[ronnie624]

235. The stated reasons for the 9/11 attacks.

- The U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia

- U.S. support of Israel

- Sanctions against Iraq

I don't recall hearing anything about the "name of Islam" from those who are presumably responsible for the attacks. There were, however, certain 'analysts' on cable 'news' media, making such statements.

[movonne]

123. A job is a job....corporations at work...

[Loudmxr]

125. OK so they will hire workers from New Jersey.

I just like saying New Jersey. Someday I'll be able to say it like a real east coaster.

[izquierdista]

130. I know how to quell this brouhaha

Let's all agree to build an Atheist Cultural Center instead.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BonnieJW]

132. This is so sad.

These people will face terrible shame one day when they realize how un-American their actions were.

[superconnected]

135. I'm considering that it's due the Right Wing attack on education.

Most of us know it's wrong to stop the mosque from being built because of civics. However without that education, would we know it was wrong?

[Lightning Count]

139. The same would apply to St. Nicholas church which is also not being built.

Due to some conflict with the freedom fry tower. Build them both right where they were or are supposed to be. Not sure why this is so complicated.

[No Elephants]

200. St Nicholas is not being build bc it's demanding too much from Port

Authority.

[Lightning Count]

237. No, they won't let them rebuild it in the original location.

Due to the freedom fry tower and ridiculous anti-terra measures they are requiring.

[No Elephants]

201. Civics is irrelevant to bigots.

Ayone who thinks 1.5 billion people, including Americans, should suffer in America because 19 suicidal maniacs claim to be Muslim is a bigot. No two ways about it.

[EmilyKent]

140. Oh look....job openings!

[bluestateboomer]

142. Ignorant

Fearful
Bigoted
Mis-informed
Anti-American

Pick one or all.
As a union member I am not very proud at this moment.

:banghead: :spank: :(

[Angry Dragon]

163. Take A Look Around ...... The Terrorists Have Won

There has always been bigots and racists in this country, but since 9/11 it has really ramped up.
We are the terrorists now, terrorizing our own people. Most people it seems today are so afraid of their own shadow,
that anyone not agreeing with them is anti-American and should be hunted down.

[cyr330]

164. They don't want to work?

Well, let them fucking live on unemployment if they don't want to do honest work. I'm appalled.

[Dappleganger]

176. Two fucking blocks away is sacred ground??

Idiots.

[Warren Stupidity]

233. what exactly does that mean anyway?

the right and the compliant media just invent shit and spew it as if it means something.

[cyr330]

183. The job market is tight. . .

And there aren't that many construction jobs available. Let those fuckers sit it out and not work and bring in folks who DO want to earn some $$ for their families! Let THEM build the mosque!

And, just for the record, I am PRO union. . . However, I just can't accept any union encouraging bigoted behavior, whether it be in the Jim Crow South or in NYC.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yeahyeah]

197. David Kaiser says "Get a brain you A-rab morans!"

http://assets.nydailynews.com.nyud.net:8080/img/2010/08/20/amd_kaiser.jpg

[Violet_Crumble]

202. Heres the "Hard Hat Pledge" site. It's disgusting...

Here's a few 'hightlights' from it. I hope no DUer is going to try to argue that this site isn't bigoted and hateful. Plus he's predictably a RW nutcase, so I'm not sure why there's posters in this thread defending him...

'People of Islam show us your love and tolerance and peaceful nature and in the spirit of bridge-building relocate this Mosque. Do this and we will applaud you and build you a Mosque all could be proud of. All we ask is you do not put it on the gravesite of our loved ones.'

'Of course you still have to remind these people that we are still at war based on the tenents of this religion and there already is over 200 Mosques in New York alone. Do we really need another Mosque? Not smack in our face at a stone’s throw from Ground Zero we don’t.'

'Do they really think they are going to get this atrocity built in my backyard knowing all my experience and networking Ihave done over the years? NEGATIVE!

Be prepared my Terrorist-Friendly Imam Rauff. I know full well you are overseas whoring to get the funds for your epicenter of evil.'


And it goes on and on and on amongst references to his good friends at FOX, his good friend Pamela Geller, and derogatory comments about Obama.

http://www.bluecollarcorner.com/blog/



'

[pettypace]

204. "U.S. policy being responsible for 9/11"

I don't know if the Imam said this or not, but who would argue against that statement?

Had the US stayed out of Muslim/Middle Eastern affairs in the previous decades, 9/11 would not have happened.

[CLANG]

205. The hardhats can eat my shorts- fascist mutherfeckers

[citizen snips]

207. good for them

:patriot:

[BrklynLiberal]

210. The repukes and their message framing are winning this one.

[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

215. When the left abandons the working class, the right wing tears us apart.

Shows the depoliticized state that unions are in these days.

[bluestateguy]

217. With 9.5% unemployment they have no clout

They will be easily replaced by men looking for work.

[bitchkitty]

236. Sacred ground?

So how far of a radius from the WTC is sacred? Seriously, I want to know. Has anyone measured?

The community center will not be at ground zero. This shit makes me ashamed to be American, as if I didn't already have enough reason.

[Lagomorph]

245. Hmmmmm.....

Christian bus driver refuses to take woman to abortion clinic on his route.

Muslims cab drivers refuse to carry gays, drinkers, or people with dogs.

Jewish and Muslim cashiers refuse to sell pork products at national chainstores.

The hardhats refuse to build a mosque.

Everybody is acting like an asshole. I'm not feeling the love.

[6000eliot]

247. Gee, and it's a shame that there are probably NO Muslim construction workers.

[Name removed]

250. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Douglas Carpenter]

251. What It Means To Be An American - Have You Forgotten? an old black and white video

and so appropriate for today

What It Means To Be An American - Have You Forgotten?

link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8992753#8993453



.

[CreekDog]

253. that's far from decided

it's not an official position.

the bullying position may not survive the decisionmaking process.

and doing the right thing is associated with supporting good jobs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

254. Why is it so important to you that this get built?

The general consensus among du'ers is that we are willing to get rid of organized labor ("fuck 'em"), bring in Mexicans, lose elections, ostracize Howard Dean...

What is it about this building, in this location that is so important to y'all?

As best I can tell, this is important to you because it's important to teabaggers. I know that marionette strings lift and support, but I'd think the dancing would get tiring anyway.