USS Kearsarge set to provide assistance to Pakistan (Includes 48 helicopters)

[Turborama]

Source: 13 News

Posted on August 25, 2010 at 8:58 PM
Updated today at 9:59 PM

NORFOLK, Va. - The ships of the Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group will deploy early this Friday on a disaster aid mission. The ships will provide continued U.S. humanitarian assistance to Pakistan in support of flood relief from the recent monsoon. The decision to deploy the Kearsarge group ahead of its planned deployment was made based on continuing urgent needs in the Pakistan relief effort.

After the relief mission is completed, the Kearsarge will continue with its scheduled deployment in support of Maritime Security Operations and Theater Security Cooperation efforts in the U.S. 5th and 6th Fleet Areas of responsibility.

The Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group is made up of the Norfolk-based amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge, the amphibious transport dock ship USS Ponce and the dock landing ship USS Carter Hall.

Read more: http://www.wvec.com/news/military/USS-Kearsarge-set-to-provide-assistance-to-Pakistan-101520844.html

---

Earlier related story in which the UN requests 40 more helicopters: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4516696">UN appeals for more helicopters to fly aid to marooned flood survivors / 800,000 Still Stranded

Aircraft carried:

42 × CH-46 Sea Knight helicopters
5 × AV-8B Harrier II V/STOL attack jets
6 × SH-60F/HH-60H ASW helicopter

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(LHD-3)#Characteristics">Wikipedia

[hlthe2b]

1. Tremendous... but am I wrong to bemoan the comparative response

to Katrina? This massive international response, like that we undertook for Haiti, for the Tsunamis, and others disasters leave a really bitter taste when I think back to the Katrina debacle. That we can do so much when we "want to" and apparently "chose not to in NOLA" leaves me really depressed...

[Turborama]

3. This is all happening a month after the flood started (it's still ongoing)

As Sanjay Gupta said in his brief 5 minute thing on AC360, imagine Florida being completely underwater, that's the scale of this thing. 800,000 people are still stranded after a month. 5-6 million are homeless, the stats go on and the monsoon season still hasn't finished.

I'm just saying this to add some perspective. The response to Katrina was late, but it wasn't this late and it wasn't anything like the scale of humanitarian disaster that's continuing to happen in Pakistan.

Here's the long list of countries that offered and gave response to Katrina: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

(edited to fix typo)

[hlthe2b]

10. Please don't get me wrong. I don't begrudge them all the help

we can give. I'm not questioning our help at ALL. That was not my intent in my post AT ALL. We absolutely need to do whatever we can.

It just makes me sad that we refused international help or pissed it away for Katrina and that our own response was so unforgivable and dismal. I can not help but be reminded of that at this time.

I'm sorry I left you the wrong impression, so as to cause you to misunderstand what I was saying.

[Turborama]

11. No need to apologize, at all

I didn't mean to sound like I was ragging on you. After a lot of the negative responses that have been posted since this disaster began I have become very sensitive and a bit defensive.

Essentially, we both want the same thing, for victims of any disaster to be OK. :pals:

Amongst all the multifarious refusals and "pissing away" that went on post Katrina, one thing that sticks in my mind is the refusal by Busch of Cuba's enormous and almost instant offer of aid.

From the Wikipedia link above...

Cuba
One of the first countries to offer aid, Cuba offered to send 1,586 doctors and 26 tons of medicine. This aid was rejected by the State Department.

[hugo_from_TN]

26. Is there any doubt that that same offer today would be rejected

by the Obama/Clinton State Department? It is politically untenable to accept it.

[Turborama]

27. Yes, there is doubt

It's a different administration and their reaction could be different if the same offer was made in the same sort of circumstances.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/17/obama.latinamerica/index.html

http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2010/08/cuban-american_relations

[sofa king]

15. Look at the silver lining.

The cynicism, apathy, incompetence and barely concealed racism of the Bush Administration during the Katrina disaster was probably the most important event in setting up the election of President Barack Obama.

The President has not been unmindful of those circumstances, and that new self-awareness that the United States as a whole gained with his election was probably what prompted us to take an effective lead in aiding Haiti. That almost certainly saved some lives in Haiti, though it certainly doesn't bring back those lost in New Orleans.

And, for the moment, we're applying the most obvious and important lesson of disaster response: don't let the Republicans be in charge when disaster strikes.

[Kringle]

2. Pak. could afford helos if they would forgo nuclear weapons .nt

[OhioChick]

4. Then again....

India could afford to feed it's poor if they didn't have nukes, either.

[ChromeFoundry]

6. "Poverty in India is widespread with the nation estimated to have a third of the world's poor. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

There are many other articles out there that confirm this.

[Turborama]

7. Also, how could any country predict in advance that 800,000 of its citizens would be marooned

for a month after a flood?

BTW They said they needed 40 more helicopters to help with assisting said 800,000 citizens who had been marooned for a month. I just wonder how long these extra choppers will take to get there.


Current stats of how many helicopters Pakistan's military owns.

Pakistan Naval Aviation

13 Westland Lynx - anti-ship/anti-submarine/transport helicopters
26 Westland Sea King Mk45 - transport helicopters<40> Have been based at Karachi.
38 Aérospatiale SA-319B Alouette III - transport/anti-ship helicopters<41>
6 Harbin Z-9 helicopters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Navy#Pakistan_Naval_Aviation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Pakistan_Air_Force#Helicopters">List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (38 helicopters)

Pakistan's Army's Aircraft inventory

Vehicle/System/Aircraft Role Quantity
AH-1F/S Cobra Attack helicopter 16
AH-1S Cobra Attack helicopter 17
AH-1F Cobra Attack helicopter 18
Aérospatiale Puma Transport helicopter 30
Mil Mi-17 Transport helicopter 92
Bell 206 Jet Ranger Utility helicopter 16
Bell 407 Utility helicopter 45
Bell 412 Utility helicopter 25
Bell UH-1 Huey Utility helicopter 40
Eurocopter AS-550 Utility helicopter 50
Aérospatiale Alouette III Utility helicopter 40
Aérospatiale SA-315B Lama Utility helicopter 40

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army#Aircraft_inventory

[Vehl]

9. I'm sorry but this is simply not true

Its "cool" to make sweeping comments like "if only they choose to feed the poor"...but its just an Urban Myth.


India spends 2.5% of its GDP on defense(it hasn't changed for the past decade)
at the same time, it has maintained an economic growth of 8% for the past decade. so even the measly 2.5% is more than compensated for.


to claim that somehow that this puny% would solve the problems of India's poor is mere wishful thinking. Fyi the Defence programs of India have resulted in a HUGE amount of civilian tech spin-offs (as it did in the US and Russian programs as well). For example...India actually makes a Profit from its space program, by launching satellites of other nations...Israel...France...England..to name a few.

furthermore india has some satellites dedicated for farming/agriculture, and has used it to boost the yield of its farms over the past couple of decades.


If 97.5% of the budget is not alleviating the poor fast enough...then 2.5% more is not even going to make a dent.Sure..India has a lot of poor people...but the situation is changing...in the past 2 decades alone a whopping 200 MILLION people moved away from poverty into middle class, In India.

needless to mention, India has already been invaded by China once...and had three wars with Pakistan, it also faces way more terror attacks than America ever did. For it to let go of defense expenditure is akin to laying its head on the block. period.


btw, some interesting facts

India's equality in income distribution (36.8) is actually better than ours (40.8). China's is worse than both at 46.9. India is doing a much better job than China to date at maintaining a decent level of income equality while it develops. (They are closer to Canada's level of social equality (32.7) than we are.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8996438
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
Text

India halved its poverty in the past 25 years alone.An Amazing feat....considering that its a nation of more than a Billion people. btw this data is till the year 2000(1975-2000) ...the period of 2000-2010 was the most dynamic period in India's economy...Thus the rate in which people move up from under the poverty line is bound to have increased.



bringing in the "oh they should use these money to help the poor" argument is pretty much in the same league as some of the "oh yeah..India = holy cows and naked holy men" comments. Quite condescending, if i may note


The other poster has a point...Pakistan spends much more as a % of GDP on defense than India does.



PS:
And yes..India's nuclear program does feed its poor..in a way. it produces much needed energy for the national grid, and is expected to expand to cover 30% of the needs in a few decades time. Pakistan on the other hand, uses nuclear technology only for weapons purposes. And no..this is not a dig at Pakistan...but a mere statement of a fact, cos im tired of seeing India getting pulled into the discussion every time Pakistan is mentioned...as if they are conjoined twins.

[sabrina 1]

16. The only reason you see that reaction is because in every

single thread about this huge humanitarian disaster, there a few posters using the same talking points 'if they sold their nukes they wouldn't have to ask for help'. It is probably an unfair reaction, but the total disregard for the plight of the victims of this disaster, and the effort to dissuade anyone from helping, is a far worse display of ignorance imo.

I appreciate your post, just explaining how a few posters on this supposedly progressive board have consistently derailed threads on this tragedy with that same talking point, apparently perfectly willing to let untold numbers of innocent people die for political reasons.

I am glad India is dealing with its poverty. All these former countries that once were under the control of the British and other European Empires have suffered greatly over the centuries and the results of Colonialism in Africa, Asia and S. America will take a very long time to overcome.

Which is why it is so disturbing that the U.S. is now embarking on the same course of those infamous nations joined by former Empires such as Britain.

[Vehl]

18. Sure, i understand that. But ive seen this in other threads as well

The only reason you see that reaction is because in every single thread about this huge humanitarian disaster, there a few posters using the same talking points 'if they sold their nukes they wouldn't have to ask for help'. It is probably an unfair reaction, but the total disregard for the plight of the victims of this disaster, and the effort to dissuade anyone from helping, is a far worse display of ignorance imo.

Sure, i understand, I've seen it myself. But this phenomenon of bringing in the "oh the poor! oh the poor!" is not restricted to these threads alone though. I don't post often in these forums, but i do keep abreast of most of the posts. It would not be amiss to say that a lot of threads on India/about India either have the "oh they are poor!" or "they are taking our jobs!" comments.

I totally understand these comments in threads which actually talk about those subject matters..such as the state of poverty in India, or about US jobs. But often i see these stuff brought into threads which have no relation to those issues at all. I don't know the exact details..but i rem even threads which were talking about some Indian festival had such comments. those who flamebait are no better than those they are countering...its basically the same thing...as by those baits they are just generalizing entire nations and peoples.

I appreciate your post, just explaining how a few posters on this supposedly progressive board have consistently derailed threads on this tragedy with that same talking point, apparently perfectly willing to let untold numbers of innocent people die for political reasons.

I am glad India is dealing with its poverty. All these former countries that once were under the control of the British and other European Empires have suffered greatly over the centuries and the results of Colonialism in Africa, Asia and S. America will take a very long time to overcome.

Which is why it is so disturbing that the U.S. is now embarking on the same course of those infamous nations joined by former Empires such as Britain.

Thank you for taking your time to reply. Ive seen the derailing so i agree.

and yes...the poverty in India is a big issue, i am in no way whitewashing it...but just pointing out that commenting about the poor without looking at the great strides made towards the elimination of poverty does a great disservice to those who are doing this important job.


And India being a democracy...and one with dozens of cultures and hundreds of languages....sometimes change might seem slow...but that's the boon as well as curse of being a democracy...we simply cannot "order" people to do certain things as we wish. But i think all in all its a good thing...its always better to have debate and dissent rather than unquestioning obedience, as in communist countries. But the decisions and changes that come out of a thorough democratic process, are much more resilient than one imposed on the people by the ruling junta.


the pace of change in the past 10 years has been light speed...compared to the previous decades of the Indian experience. :)



PS :

Here is a really good documentary that would be interesting for people who want to keep abreast of the changing south Asia. it is also one of the best documentaries i've seen in recent years.

http://www.pbs.org/thestoryofindia/

[sabrina 1]

21. Thank you for your very civil response.

It IS unfair not to recognize the progress India has made and I am sorry, I will remember that in future when a thread is derailed in the manner in which I described. I apologize for seeming to excuse ignorance as a response to ignorance, it is not and you are right.

'the pace of change in the past 10 years has been light speed...compared to the previous decades of the Indian experience.' Yes, indeed. I completely agree and hopefully it will be even faster in the next ten years. I also know how difficult it must be to maintain a democracy with so many different cultures and such a huge country.

Thank you for the link. I am very interested in that part of the world and hope one day to visit. I have had friends from India but never have been able to accept their invitation to visit yet. I will watch the video later.

[Vehl]

23. Thank you

I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong. I was but recounting some of the cases i have witnessed in DU. No apologies are needed as no offense was taken. :)

'the pace of change in the past 10 years has been light speed...compared to the previous decades of the Indian experience.' Yes, indeed. I completely agree and hopefully it will be even faster in the next ten years. I also know how difficult it must be to maintain a democracy with so many different cultures and such a huge country.

Thank you. And yes....India is such a diverse country... the difference between some states in India is almost like the diff between say Japan and Spain.(lol not a perfect example, i agree...but yeah..some of them are very different from each other).Its this unity amongst such diversity, which is believe is the real strength of Indian democracy. A bowl of fruit as opposed to the melting pot. India does not have a national language either(contrary to popular belief)

Thank you for the link. I am very interested in that part of the world and hope one day to visit. I have had friends from India but never have been able to accept their invitation to visit yet. I will watch the video later.

That's cool. I plan to visit southeast/east Asia one fine day...hopefully in the near future.I'm of the firm belief, that the more we know about diff countries and cultures...the better the world as a whole will be...as most oft the causes of conflict are largely based on misunderstandings which could have been easily averted had the opponents known a lil bit more about each other.

[sabrina 1]

24. It's fine, it's easy to react without thinking although I try not to.

The same attacks are often seen leveled at Venezuela eg here. Another country that has made incredible progress in dealing with what was once an 80% poverty and illiteracy level and reducing it into the '60s in just ten years. Not nearly enough true, but progress nevertheless. Often I see thoughtless posts pointing to the poverty there without acknowledging that the problem is being dealt with and the progress that has been made.

Re the language, I did not realize there is no national language. I did learn a few songs from my friends, who wrote out the words phonetically for me lol! And I taught them how to harmonize which they say, is not part of Indian music. They also addicted me to Indian food.

[Vehl]

25. yep

I agree, I've seen similar stuff about some other countries on DU as well.

and yeah..India has no National language. There was an attempt in the early 60s to make Hindi the national language, but was hastily dropped after it met furious oppositions from the southern Indian states (which speak languages belonging to the Dravidian language family, as opposed to Hindi which belongs to the Indo-European language family) and some eastern Indian states. It was a smart move by the Indian government to not have a national language. Every state has the right to legislate its own official language, and the current Indian constitution recognizes 22 official languages(if i rem correctly)

As for the harmonization...yes i agree we do not put much emphasis on it..in fact i do not think its used in the way as defined in the western musical tradition.

Are you into music by any chance?
I learned Carnatic music as a kid, for some years from my mom. Its been a long time since i practiced it though.lol
i wikied a bit about harmonization. its quite interesting. I took world music as a GE during my college days and it was one of the most interesting GE's ive taken...i loved it.The musical traditions from around the world are so fascinating :)

Descriptions and definitions of harmony and harmonic practice may show bias towards European (or Western) musical traditions. For example, South Asian art music (Hindustani and Carnatic music) is frequently cited as placing little emphasis on what is perceived in western practice as conventional 'harmony'; the underlying 'harmonic' foundation for most South Asian music is the drone, a held open fifth (or fourth) that does not alter in pitch throughout the course of a composition.<10> Pitch simultaneity in particular is rarely a major consideration. Nevertheless many other considerations of pitch are relevant to the music, its theory and its structure, such as the complex system of Rāgas, which combines both melodic and modal considerations and codifications within it.<11> So although intricate combinations of pitches sounding simultaneously in Indian classical music do occur they are rarely studied as teleological harmonic or contrapuntal progressions, which is the case with notated Western music.

This contrasting emphasis (with regard to Indian music in particular) manifests itself to some extent in the different methods of performance adopted: in Indian Music improvisation takes a major role in the structural framework of a piece,<12> whereas in Western Music improvisation has been uncommon since the end of the 19th century,<13>. Where it does occur in Western music (or has in the past), the improvisation will either embellish pre-notated music or, if not, draw from musical models that have previously been established in notated compositions, and therefore employ familiar harmonic schemes.<14>

[sabrina 1]

29. I am sorry that I missed your post and hope you see

my response. To answer, I am into music but only as an amateur. I really liked the music my friends from India taught me. Ravi Shankar (not sure if I spelled that correctly) was a favorite of theirs and I know he has a daughter who is a musical performer now also.

Lol, I can imagine the reaction to choosing one language over another so I agree the best way was not to have a national language. In fact each of my two friends spoke different 'dialects' but both spoke Hindi, and of course English.

Carnatic music I am not familiar with ~ even though my friends had not learned harmonization growing up, they learned it quickly and really enjoyed singing in two or three part harmony which we did while driving lol!

Interesting excerpt, thank you for that ...

[Vehl]

30. No probs :)

To answer, I am into music but only as an amateur. I really liked the music my friends from India taught me. Ravi Shankar (not sure if I spelled that correctly) was a favorite of theirs and I know he has a daughter who is a musical performer now also.

Yep, Ravi Shankar is real good

you might know his daughter.....Norah jones! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norah_Jones
Geethali Norah Jones Shankar (born March 30, 1979), popularly known by her stage name Norah Jones, is an American singer-songwriter, pianist, keyboardist, guitarist, and actress.


His other daughter is also great at music, but she is into indian music
Anoushka Shankar is a sitar player and composer in the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoushka_Shankar

Lol, I can imagine the reaction to choosing one language over another so I agree the best way was not to have a national language. In fact each of my two friends spoke different 'dialects' but both spoke Hindi, and of course English.

yeah, it sure was a smart move. Mostly people from a state might know the language of the states near theirs. But if they go a bit further away, they usually end up talking in English...as I do, when i travel outside southern India.

Carnatic music I am not familiar with ~ even though my friends had not learned harmonization growing up, they learned it quickly and really enjoyed singing in two or three part harmony which we did while driving lol!

Thats cool :)
Carnatic music is the southern Indian musical form and Hindustani is the Northern Indian musical form. I passed 4 out of 6 exams(the 6th being teacher's grade) but being the teenager i was...didn't really like continuing it those days.lol now i regret :P



Ive realized that i'm more into classical music...but Jazz has caught my fancy....came to appreciate it when i hang out with my East Asian buddies at Yoshi's

[boppers]

31. Holy crap, that was amazing to read.

Thank you both for exemplifying the best of DU.

[sabrina 1]

12. We in the U.S. could afford a National Health Care system

free and the best in the world for every citizen, if would forego our Nukes etc. also.

We always have money for war. But we let 44,000 American citizens die each year for lack of healthcare. We are not in a position to make proclamations about other nations until we take care of our own problems.

And India could start feeding its poor if they gave up theirs also.

[OhioChick]

14. Good points, Sabrina. n/t

[Kringle]

19. US nukes.....already paid for. nt

[applegrove]

5. Excellent causse they really need choppers in Pakistan.

[jberryhill]

8. Has this aid to Muslims been cleared with 9/11 victim families?

[sabrina 1]

13. That should help a lot to get to people in remote areas. I

think they said they needed 19 helicopters.

[Redstone]

17. The Kearsarge is a good boat, and if I remember crectly, those

CH-46s will be especially helpful.

And is that an LCAC in the wake? THAT sure would be handy getting supplies to shore.

Redstone

[happyslug]

28. The Kearsarge only carries THREE LCACs

In many ways those LCACs will be more important then the CH-47s.

USS Kearsarge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_%28LHD-3%29#Characteristics

LCAC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Air_Cushion

[anarch]

20. imo, more US military assets should be used like this

beating the swords into plowshares, sort of. I mean, if we could stop the whole pathetic empire-building crap when we're obviously on the way down. As a nation, we'd better start being nicer to folks, if you ask me.

And I sure hope for relief to come to all those people in Pakistan...that is a seriously awful situation.

[sabrina 1]

22. I agree with everything you said n/t