Venezuelans protest against unchecked violence

[Zorro]

Source: AP

Opponents of President Hugo Chavez marched through Caracas on Saturday to protest rampant violence that claims thousands of lives each year in Venezuela and has been worsening in the past decade.

Protesters beat on drums and held signs with images of skulls and crossbones and slogans such as "Enough" and "No more deaths."

Journalists estimated the crowd that marched through scattered rains at roughly 1,500. A hearse rolled past with a sign saying, "You could be next."

Nurse Gladys Perez said she is flabbergasted by the steady stream of people with gunshot wounds who are brought to the emergency room at the hospital where she works.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100828/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_violence

[Arctic Dave]

1. TG, you are always good for a chuckle.

Thousands of people for an entire country, I thought we discussed this earlier, most us CITIES break that in a year. LOL

[Zorro]

2. You get a "chuckle" from Venezuelans protesting the increase in violent crime?

Which US CITIES break that homicide rate in a year? I'm sure you have that hilarious statistic close at hand.

[sabrina 1]

5. The murder rate in Chicago is so bad that several Democrats

are calling for the National Guard and the Mayor is demanding gun control to try to deal with it.

Within sight of the WH the murder rate in DC is equally bad. Children being senselessly murdered too.

I'm surprised the Tea-baggers haven't thought of protesting Obama over all this violence as he is the president, and every bad thing that happens in the country is his fault! :sarcasm:

[Zorro]

6. So what's the murder rate in Chicago?

[Prometheus Bound]

23. Venezuela homicide rate: 56 per 100,000 people; N Orleans: 64 murders per 100,000 people

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/06/despite_drop_in_crime_new_orle.html

[Regret My New Name]

25. Would it be more accurate to compare city to city or country to country?

Say Caracas to New Orleans/Chicago?

[Francesca9]

34. High crime rates make Venezuela one of the most violent countries

Caracas has now the world's highest murder rate. According to official figures reported by a survey on victimization carried out by the National Statistics Institute (INE), the Venezuelan capital has become the deadliest city in the world. A total of 7,676 people were killed in the Metropolitan Area of Caracas in 2009, that is, about one murder every hour and a half

http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/08/27/en_ing_esp_high-crime-rates-mak_27A4390815.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

42. Many of us are fully aware El Universal is a virulently anti-Chavez source.

People need to know that in order to evaluate what they see there.

[Zorro]

49. So are you declaring the reported protest to be false?

Or you just trying to add your typical FUD to any story that reflects poorly on the failures of the Chavez administration?

[Judi Lynn]

51. Does that sign protest violence or does it protest socialism? Thank you. n/t

[SocialistJan]

14. I do research on violence and Venezuela has proportionally 10 times more homicides than the US

The situation in the US is really bad for a developed country but it doesn't hold the comparison with many Latin American countries (especially Venezuela, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and Colombia).

[another saigon]

20. could you post that research please?

I can't wait to read the part about the US' hand in the violence perpetrated against the people of Central and South America for decades.

:popcorn:

[SocialistJan]

63. Government stats are not always on the internet, I have the pdf doc though. Do you want it?

How can I send it to you?

[Judi Lynn]

64. That's one bloody hand, too, another saigon. They know how evil it was, tried to keep it secret.

All those hundreds of thousands of murders, done on OUR tax dollars without our knowledge to INNOCENT people. Grotesque.

Anyone supporting those operations is far below contempt.

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. Venezuela murder rate: 73 per 100K population. US: 5.4 per 100K population.

Latest figures per Wikipedia. The murder rate in Venezuela is 14 times that in the US, comparatively speaking. And significantly higher than in the US city with the highest murder rate (New Orleans, 52 per 100K population). Venezuela has a much smaller population than the US (28 million, less than one-tenth); incidents per capita are the only way to make a direct comparison.

[sabrina 1]

3. Venezuela's rightwing Tea-baggers!

That 4 million dollars the U.S. is spending on Anti-Chavez propaganda has to be running out soon.

If he would just hand over Venezuela's oil, he would suddenly become our new BFF.

But we were due for some Anti-Democratically-elected Chavez propaganda :eyes:

[Zorro]

8. So your're blaming reports of Venezuelans protesting the increase in violent crime

somehow on the US?

You think Venezuelans don't have a legitimate reason to complain about the rise in violent crime?

[sabrina 1]

10. I think Americans, Venezuelans, Europeans and others have a

right to complain about violence in their countries. And they do. And if it's okay to blame the president in one country, then it's okay to blame all leaders for that violence.

Who should we blame for the violence in Afghanistan and Iraq? Do you have any idea what it is like to live in either of those two countries since the U.S. invaded them? Any idea what it is like not to have enough morgues to hold all the bodies and to have to line them up on the streets? Babies, pregnant women, old people, hospital patients, bombed, bodies ripped apart by cluster bombs and burned by White Phospherous?

Asking Americans to blame Chavez for violence in Venezuela when we can directly blame our own leaders for the murder of over one million people in those two countries doesn't make sense. We are not in any position to judge other countries when it comes to violence.

But if teabaggers here wanted to go after Obama, they could organize in DC or Chicago and protest the violence in those cities and blame it on him. That wouldn't make sense. Since presidents generally cannot prevent murder obviously or they would. What would make sense would be to protest the President here for the ongoing killing of civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan as he IS directly responsible for that violence.

As far as I know, Chavez hasn't invaded anyone else's country. That makes him significantly better than a U.S. president as far as being directly responsible for violence. So you see, it's hard for us to get excited about Chavez without being hypocritical.

[bitchkitty]

4. Yawn. n/t

[bertman]

7. Is this the new anti-Chavez propaganda meme or is it true about the murders?

[Zorro]

9. To be frank

I think that Americans can't really comprehend what it means to live in communities where violent crime is so pervasive as it is in many Latin American cities.

Caracas is not alone in having this problem.

[sabrina 1]

11. I think a significant number of Americans would disagree with you.

I remember one soldier after returning from Iraq saying he hears more gunfire and feels less safe in the U.S. than he did in Iraq. There are many areas in the U.S. where people are afraid to leave their homes for fear violence. The drug wars have escalated violence in this country and many times innocent people are caught in the crossfire of drug gangs. As happened recently in Chicago when a 20 month old baby was shot.

[Joe Chi Minh]

13. You'e just spoilt Zorro's day with that! Don't mock the afflicted, especially

when the truth is like sunshine to a vampire.

[SocialistJan]

17. I find it a bit indecent to compare criminality in the US with criminality in Venezuela

It's like comparing poverty in Manchester with poverty in Niamey, Niger. Typical spoiled rich country "I'm not that wealthy, I have problems too" revolting comments.

I think no North American (not even in the worst US neighborhoods) can understand how bad is the violence in a Venezuelan slum.

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. Absolutely. The School of the Americas and its sponsors have a lot to answer for.

[Psephos]

77. A breath of fresh air in this fetid thread. Thank you.

A pox on those sitting at their own computers with full bellies trying to make their privileged existence in a rich country sound worse than the that of the world's true unfortunates.

One-upmanship to prove who is the most radical chic of all, without lifting a finger to do anything about it...except hit the Enter key.

All countries have corruption, desperate people and desperate problems.

[Zorro]

27. When's the last time you've been to South America, Joe?

Let me guess. Never.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Joe Chi Minh, how much do you think U.S. Teabaggers know about THEIR country?

As we've seen, it sure doesn't hold THEM back, and it doesn't seem to keep them from posting, either.

http://www.sodblog.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/teabagger.jpg http://cdn.crooksandliars.com.nyud.net:8090/files/uploads/2009/05/teapartydouches_a28cd.jpg

http://randomoverload.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/01737dee58ionary.jpg.jpg http://www.pensitoreview.com.nyud.net:8090/Wordpress/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/photo-tea-bagger-with-n-word-300.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_bJEL4pzL3-Y/SeeNo10uSCI/AAAAAAAAACY/pBtOso-gc6I/s400/3447320621_897b498c0e.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_iJEoflhCsvo/Sq7zzhNVnHI/AAAAAAAABks/rN2oUCQ1E54/s1600/teabaggers-ussr.jpg

http://m2.wnymedia.net.nyud.net:8090/files/2009/09/lunatic_fringe_teabagger_lady.jpg
It's clear many people know far more about things through researching, studying, reading than those who don't, no matter WHERE the #### they live.

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. I rest my case, Judi. Well, you did, as it happens. But that insane mantra

is an absolute staple of right-wingers bereft of any truth to stand on, relevant to the issues.

As for those photos! Edward Lear, Lewis Carroll, thou shouldst be living now. They even manage to get Christ's strictures about money back to front. What is it they don't understand about, "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money"? I don't mean in the Aramaic or Greek versions? I mean, in the English/American version.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Ha! You provided the means, after all. n/t

[Zorro]

47. Quite a winning argument you’ve got there, Brainiac

Someone who takes a geography class somewhere knows more about life in foreign countries than those who actually live there; therefore, you know more about crime in Venezuela than Venezuelans that live with the threat of criminal violence daily.

Because it’s actually the fault of the School of the Americas, and reporting protests against the increase in criminal violence is a right-wing conspiracy coordinated by the US State Department and CIA to besmirch Chavez!

And you can make such brilliant conclusions because you once took a geography class! Hardee har har.

Oh, and save your sanctimonious and judgmental religious prattle for your Wednesday night prayer circle.

[Judi Lynn]

50. If it weren't for those of us who can read we wouldn't know about this:

The Textbook CIA Coup That Failed
Hugo Chavez
Wherever in the woods of rural Virginia the CIA teaches it's masters course in coup plotting & execution, the template undoubtedly studied therein is the 1953 overthrow of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq, the CIA's perfect black ops coup. Mossadeq was the last democratically elected Iranian head of state. "Mosaddeq was a nationalist and passionately opposed foreign intervention in Iran. He was also the architect of the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry, which had been under British control." Link. Sound familiar? Yes, substitute "Chavez" and "Venezuela" for Mosaddeq and Iran; substitute "American" for British and you have the same fact pattern of President Hugo Chavez in Venezuela circa 2002. More on Venezuela later. First Iran.

Here is how Wikipedia generally describes it: "In the 1953 Iranian coup d'état, the administration of U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower orchestrated the overthrow of the democratically-elected administration of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq and his cabinet from power. The support of the coup was carried out using widespread bribery in a covert operation by Kermit Roosevelt, Jr. for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). According to a report on the BBC, Britain, motivated by its desire to control Iranian oil fields, contributed to funding for the widespread bribery of Iranian officials, news media and others." Wikipedia. The plan elements were as follows:

• Make local alliances with the financial elite of the country,
  
• Bribe the military (easy task as they are US trained),
  
• Bribe the news media,
  
• Hire street thugs to lead demonstrations with business leaders and others disaffected by the current regime for whatever reason,
  
• Propaganda campaign, step 1: use local and international media to give sympathetic coverage to the demonstrations showing them as much larger than in actuality,
  
• Commit violence against the peaceful demonstrators,
  
• Propaganda campaign, step 2: blame the violence on the current government through the bribed media,
  
• In the resulting chaos, activate the military with major cities to control violence,
  
• Coup leaders (military) demand ouster of the current leadership as an emergency measure to restore order coupled with a promise to return to democracy at some indefinite future date,
  
• Media hypes the necessity and approves of a military coup,
  
• Purge--kill or exile leaders of democractically government who have been overthrown,
  
• Crackdown--jail or kill all internal opposition of the coup.

This is the CIA coup blue print. It worked in Iran but just barely. The Shah panicked and fled for Iraq before Mossadeq was arrested by the Iranian military. The Shah had to be coaxed to return to Iran by US General Norman Schwarzkopf, Sr. (yes, the father of the alleged Desert Storm hero). The CIA had a fallback plan in case the coup did not work: they organized a guerrilla force in southern Iran to form a clandestine safe haven from which U.S.-funded fighters and intelligence agents could operate a guerilla war against the Iranian government (think Nicaraguan "Contras").

http://www.jjraymond.com/political/2007/chavez.html

Who doesn't know people who have gone to other places and come back knowing very little more than they did when they went? How does going anywhere guarantee you come back qualified enough to be chosen to sit on their supreme courts? I've seen Americans in other countries talking loudly, acting goddawful, making asses of themselves, who don't seem to realize they ARE in someone else's country.

Don't you know how feeble your gibbering is? You have so little information yourself you are forced to wave your front legs at offending democrats, leftists, hurling insults, drawing sympathy for your helplessness.

[Zorro]

52. I seem to be offending

those bombastic pedants who have never been to or lived in the countries-- or even continents -- they espouse to have detailed knowledge of, and who belittle those with the education, experience, and knowledge who do know what they're talking about.

And they always try to change the subject away from discussing the contents of the original thread.

[Judi Lynn]

53. Do you know someone personally who's not an oligarch living in Venezuela? Cool! n/t

[Zorro]

55. A balanced perspective

seems particularly offensive to unbalanced minds.

[sabrina 1]

78. I have lived in other countries, and have many friends in

other countries. Several of them live in Venezuela. They do not share your view of their country. But then, you could meet two Americans and you would get two different views of this country also. Which why talking to people who live in a country is not always the best way to gain overall knowledge of that country. Same goes for my Italian friends, some of them hate Berlusconi, while hard as it is for me to imagine, at least one of them thinks he's okay.

What is tragic to me about Venezuela is that this country, which ought to be helping that country is actively trying to tear down the government. Spending millions on anti-Chavez propaganda to be published in the Western media and working with rightwing elements to try to destabilize the country.

We know this government intervenes in oil producing countries, produces propaganda as they did with Iraq in order to get the American people's support for future actions against that country.

Which is why many Americans now are very suspicious of negative material that makes its way into the media here, aimed at a targeted, oil producing country. Nine out of ten times, violence is instigated by the U.S. in 'countries of interest' in an attempt to turn public opinion against leaders who refuse to turn over their country's resources to Multi-national corps.

Americans are no longer the trusting, naive people they were before the Bush administration lied them into war.

You admonish people who point out to you that in some cities in this country the violence is out of control with citizens afraid to leave their homes. You diminish the violence in this country and then accuse others of doing exactly what you are doing yourself. Violence anywhere is to be condemned, when used as as a political tool as in this case, it is simply despicable. You're in no position to criticize anyone, just FYI.

[Zorro]

79. Save your clueless sermonizing for Joe

The reported rise in shockingly violent crime in Venezuela is real, not some US-led conspiracy against Chavez.

Lame attempts to diminish this very real situation by reframing it as politically motivated or by equating it to crime in the US clearly demonstrates willful ignorance.

[sabrina 1]

80. Your biased sources using that violent crime for political

purposes is simply despicable. Save your outrage for those who would tear down a country that is attempting to build a better life for its citizens. Those who would use the deaths and suffering of others for their own personal agenda. It isn't working, maybe they should try to do something to help improve the situation for a change.

No one is diminishing it, they are condemning the use of it for political purposes. Try to keep up.

[Zorro]

83. Even Chavez acknowleges

violent crime is on the rise in Venezuela. Damn that AP for reporting those biased FACTS!

[Zorro]

26. You've proven my point

People in their cars, getting robbed at gunpoint in the middle of the day at busy downtown intersections while waiting at a red light -- that's only one example of the pervasive type of violent crime I'm talking about.

Such shocking criminality is all too common in in South American cities. It's naive to equate the pervasive nature of that level of violent crime with crime in the US.

[Joe Chi Minh]

39. Poverty breeds violence; extreme poverty, extreme violence. But, as usual,

you are talking tosh.

In England only the other day, a footballers' wife (a WAG) was dragged from her up-market car by four masked thugs, who made off with it, leaving her traumatised by the side of the road. I doubt if it needed to be at knife-point.

And I've heard of that happening at traffic lights, too. Have you heard of ram-raiding? They just ram a car into a shop front and rob it. Up here in Scotland, a lot of Mom and Pop stores are robbed, and not that infrequently, the owner knifed to death.

The principle is always the same. There are no exceptions. Right-wing governments inevitably lead to a terrible spike in violence. That's not left-wing ideology; it very well-documented fact.

Left-wing goverments used to be responsible for higher rates of sex crimes. Now, there would be no difference beween them. Well, we don't have a left in the UK any more. Although, as former NuLab(c) Chancellor, Alistair Darling said the other day, in the US, the Tories are considered communists. You should be ashamed to show your face on a progressive board, like this.

[Zorro]

48. There's been a terrible spike in violence

in both Venezuela and Ecuador, as recent statistics and reports from people that have actually live there indicate.

Are you declaring Chavez and Correa to be leading right-wing governments? You sound very confused.

And I've got news for you, Joe. Unquestioning adoration of St. Hugo is not a position thinking progressives embrace.

[Joe Chi Minh]

56. I won't stoop to rebut such bilge. Although, actually, now I think of it,

a spike in violence in such circumstances makes sense. I mean violence by the poor. The violence of the rich has always been a constant, above all, in South America. So, let's be clear: we are talking about street-level violence, not the mega-violence of the very rich and their government agencies - whose machinations and wars, both bloody and economic, lead to violence by the poor. Many of the violent poor will be bad men whose souls have been destroyed by the oppression of the rich, but some will be good. A man was hired by some rich character or cabal to murder Dom Helder Camara, the author of my sig. line, but he told him that he knew he was a good man, and couldn't do it. Other good men ach as MLK, were not so lucky, though his killers woldn't have been short of a bob. In Brazil, some children are not so lucky. Are you proud of your country's role in the history of Brazil?

When the poor in Venezuela and Ecuador see their belated emancipation threatened by those who have oppressed them for so long, in cahoots with the US, it would be normal human nature. It was why Bush was forever raising the scaled coloured-light alerts: to put fear in the likes of the tea-baggers. We see it now in the violence shown by the latter to American Moslems; the stabbing of the taxi-driver, for instance. It's not to justify it, but simply to explain that that is what fear, and in the case of South america, extreme deprivation will do to the souls of many people who live at the margins of society. Regrettably for them, street-level violence, however, can at best lead to 'nickel and dime' gains. At least, outside of the drug trade, for which your country also has much to answer for.

But let's not be coy about the level of violence in the US. Your country was always a byword for violence to Europeans who visited it. Now the UK seems to be catching up: it all began with that wonderful Reagan-Thatcher axis, for which the world will be facing a shocking economic price.

However, ultimately relative levels of violence, domestic and imperial, are irrelevant. The one fact that must be borne in mind is that poverty breeds street-level violence, just as surely as violence in the hearts of the rich will have got most of them where they are. At the top of the pile. It's just that the violence of the rich is a more subtle and deadly form of violence, institutionalised by legislation.

[Judi Lynn]

57. It's also good to remember Venezuela is housing hundreds of thousands of unexpected visitors

from Colombia, who have been chased off their own land, out of their houses by paramilitary Colombians and military Colombians. They have fled for their lives in every direction, many surging into cities in Colombia, which are already crowded, with no jobs for them.

Others flee to Ecuador and Venezuela, where they aren't set up to employ hundreds of thousands additional people, either.

We all know about the forced displacement and land theft. Even former President Alvaro Uribe's own cousin, Mario Uribe Escobar was learned by their justice department (after practising it for years) to be a direct buyer of stolen land from the paramilitaries. He himself attempted to flee to Costa Rica and obtain refuge there, and they wouldn't have him, booted him right out.

So Venezuela is stuck with some of the enormous overflow of helpless people without homes, or jobs from Colombia. It's our own corporate media which refuses to mention Colombia is the home of the world's 2nd largest humanitarian crisis, right after Sudan.

That point should be tacked to the end of the points you've already posted here. Venezuela's poor has company, now.

[Joe Chi Minh]

60. What a shocking, man-made catastrophe. If you can call the authors of it, men.

Who can doubt that there will be a terrible reckoning for those responsible for all the wickedness inflicted on the poor in South America? Yet our friends are so astonishingly shameless that they vilify heroes of mankind, such as Ugo, Correa and Fidel. Nor is it the case, surely, that they are ignorant of the truth.

[Judi Lynn]

65. No, they know about the atrocities, I'm sure. They revel in their hatred.

I'm sure if you met them face to face they would not be able to look you in the eye. Bad consciences.

I just stumbled across this article. Maybe it's worth considering:

Declassified Document: Kissinger Blocked U.S. Protest on South American Assassinations
By: Jeff Kaye Sunday April 11, 2010 1:58 am

~snip~
Assassinations, Then and Now

The Kissinger/Condor revelations come at a time with the issue of U.S. assassinations abroad have taken center stage. There is the ongoing controversy over whether the United States has a legal right to conduct "targeted killings", i.e., murders, by pilotless drones in Afghanistan and elsewhere. These drone killings have left a trail of assassinations of purported Al Qaeda leaders, and hundreds of innocent civilians dead, and are believed to be alienating support for U.S. policy in that region.

Even more, reports of CIA and Joint Special Forces assassination squads, given the green-light by former President George W. Bush, and approved by his successor, Barack Obama, have also surfaced. Marcy Wheeler has followed the story in a number of recent articles. There was also the explosive tale by Seymour Hersh, that alleged that there was a special assassination squad attached directly to the office of Vice President Cheney.

The history of the United States is not one generally known to its average citizen. It involves the support and engagement in the use of torture, assassination, and covert interventions into the sovereign affairs of scores of other nations over the course of many decades, from Operation Gladio to Operation Condor. This policy has culminated in 2001-2003 with the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Today, over a quarter million U.S. troops are in that region, and the United States has documented use of torture and assassination as a matter of state policy.

President Obama came to office promising change and greater transparency. He has not lived up to this promise, and it may be that no commander-in-chief can do so, lacking from the populace itself a determination to uproot the militarist mind-set that occupies the programmatic operations of much of the government. But on the other hand, Obama has not indicated any appetite to appeal to the people on these issues, and instead follows the policies of his generals and admirals, and the spooks who populate the vaunted IC ("Intelligence Community".

The military and intelligence sectors of the government and the economy have grown unimaginably powerful. It is not an exaggeration that the actions of the U.S. government have made any claims of benefit in its activities abroad suspect. It is up to citizens of this country to take its democracy back, and hold its government accountable for what it has done.

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/40186

Have to run. Back later.

[Joe Chi Minh]

72. I expect MLK's sorrowful words, "Longevity has its place", would never be far from Obama's mind, if

he does harbour clandestine, progressive aspirations.

The only hope, other than divine intervention, is that, when the economic situation does, indeed, deteriorate badly for most people, even by current standards, they will say enough is enough, and endeavour to wrest the government from these dark forces for themselves, i.e. to establish the kind of democratic government to be found in the more enlightened countries of Europe, such as those of Scandinavia.

But with the apparently imminent coincidence of so many seemingly para-apocalyptic forces in our world today - peak oil, resource depletion, climate change, environmental disruption and economic collapse - not to speak of the rising anomie and anarchy in our already dystopian countries, government by any agency might prove, to say the least, problematic. A touch of the Mad Maxs, but with a lot more anger.

[SocialistJan]

16. 4,000 murders a year when he reached power, 14,000-19,000* last year

* The government stopped providing this stat when it became a conflictive theme in the beginning of the 2000's, so the calculation comes from the amount of shot bodies in the mortuaries of the country counted by the medical personal, civil associations, NGO's. Some sources don't count the "ajusticiamientos" (extra-judicial killings by the police, around 4,000 per year) as murders.

All in all, there's a huge variation in numbers but according to the best scenario, we're talking about a 250% increase in 11 years which is kind of an absolute record for a non war zone.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[another saigon]

22. waiting for that research

.

[EFerrari]

30. Except it is a war zone that is fueling the violence that is there.

That war zone is in COLOMBIA and the violence spills over the border. Just like our government likes it.

[Lightning Count]

33. Chavez is not blaming Columbia though. Video games are to blame.

"They want to attribute the violence to me," Chavez said. "Violence is one of the visible and terrible effects of social injustice, of capitalism, of the model the bourgeoisie imposed on us."
He said for one thing, violent TV shows, video games and toys have a damaging effect on children.
"That's capitalism," said Chavez, who says he aims to lead Venezuela toward socialism.

[hack89]

44. Harboring the FARC certainly doesn't help matters. nt

[Judi Lynn]

46. Repeating unproven right-wing b.s. doesn't advance your credibility, either. n/t

[hack89]

54. Unproven only to those who worship at the altar of St Hugo.

You destroyed any appearance of objectivity a long time a go so please, just give it a break. We understand what you believe and what you refuse to accept.

[Joe Chi Minh]

58. The term, 'St Hugo' is evidently a joke in your rather twisted thinking, but according to the

canons of Christian scripture, he and Fidel, probably Mao, too, despite his womanizing, will enjoy even higher stature in God's eyes, in Heaven than they enjoy(ed) among their own people, while they live(d) on earth.

They, after all, act(ed) as though the poorest among their fellow-citizens are part of God's own Trinitarian family (by adoption), just the same as we hope to be.

These words of St John Chrysostom might have been addressed to you and the other apologists of exploitation and oppression by the rich in S. America, on here:

"Would you honour the body of Christ? Do not despise his nakedness; do not honour him here in church clothed in silk vestments and then pass him by unclothed and frozen outside. Remember that he who said, 'This is my body', and made good his words, also said, 'You saw me hungry and gave me no food', and 'in so far as you did it not to one of these, you did it not to me.' In the first sense the body of Christ does not need clothing but worship from a pure heart. In the second, it does need clothing and all he care we can give it.

We must learn to be discerning Christians and to honour Christ in the way in which he wishes to be honoured. It is only right that honour given to anyone should take the form most acceptable to the recipient, not to the giver. Peter thought he was honouring the Lord when he tried to stop him washing his feet, but this was far from being genuine homage. So, give God the honour he asks for, that is give your money generously to the poor. God has no need of golden vessels but f golden hearts.

I am not saying yous hould not give golden altar vessels and so on, but I am insisting that nothing can take the place of almsgiving. The Lord will not refuse to accept the first kind of gift but he prefers the second, and quite naturally, because in the first case only the donor benefits, in the second case, the poor get the benefit. The gift of a chalice may be ostentatious; almsgiving is pure benevolence.

What is the use of loading Christ's table with gold cups while he himself is starving? Feed the hungry, and hen if you have any money left over, spend it on the altar table. Will you make a cup of gold and withold a cup of water? What use is it to adorn the altar with cloth of gold hangings, and deny Christ a coat for his back! what would that profit you? Tell me: if you saw someone starving and refused to give him any food ut instead spent your money on adorning the altar with gold, would he thank you? Would he nt, rather, be outraged? Or if you saw someone in rags and stiff with cold and then did not give him clothing, but set up golden columns in his honour, would he not say he was being made a fool of and insulted?

Consider that tramp who comes in need of a night's lodging. You turn him away and then start laying rugs on the floor, draping the walls, hanging lamps on silver chains on the columns. Meanwhile the tramp is locked up in prison nd you never give him a glance.Well, again, I am not condemning munificence in these matters. Make your house beautiful by all means but also look after the poor, or rather, look after the poor first. No one was ever condemned for not adorning his house, but those who neglect the poor were threatened with hell fire for all eternity and a life of torment with devils. adorn your house if you will, but do not forget your brother in distress. He is a temple of infinitely greater value."

Of course, today, we are much more fortunate in that, via taxation, we can give without being able to pat ourselves on the back (except at election time, voting for some redistribution of th country's wealth); not letting our left hand know what our right is doing.

Consider that Christ is that tramp who comes in need of a night's lodging. You turn him away and then start laying rugs on the floor, draping the walls, hanging lamps on silver chains on the columns. Meanwhile the tramp is locked up in prison and you never give him a glance. Well, again, I am not condemning munificence in these matters. Make your house beautiful by all means, but also look after the poor, or rather look after the poor first. No one was ever condemned for not adorning his house, but those who neglect the poor were threatened with hell fire for all eternity and a life of torment with devils. Adorn you house if you will, but do not forget your brother in distress. He is a temple of infinitely greater value.

Of course, in a democratic society (particularly a genuine one, such as in Venzuela and Ecuador, via taxation, we have the perect way of giving alms without patting ourselves on the back - without letting our "left hand know what our right hand is doing".

[hack89]

61. Mao murdered millions of his own people

I don't think that the Christian canon make room for men like him.

Hugo has to first prove he has actually changed things for the long term and has helped the poor. Rampant crime and a wrecked economy certainly don't look good for Hugo's reputation in history. I would bet that 50 years from now he will be nothing but a footnote in history.

[Joe Chi Minh]

73. Bookmakers think the word of punters like you.

[hack89]

74. There has been a never ending string of despots and wannabe dictators

in Central and South American - most of whom will never be more than a minor footnote in history. History says my bet is a safe one.

[Joe Chi Minh]

75. Groomed and installed by the US State department and CIA. Big difference.

Don't waste our time with that kind of twaddle.

[hack89]

76. You really think old Hugo is going to be around very much longer?

he understands coups - he tried one himself. His enemies are just waiting for the perfect time to knock him off.

[Joe Chi Minh]

82. You don't understand the role played by the people and the army,

at the previous attempted coup. Don't forget they tried once and failed, because the people weren't having it. Your people don't have much life to them, the way the world is going. Get over it.

Who knows? Maybe you'll end up homeless, or imprisoned as a dangerous subversive in a newly democratic country. That would be a turn-up wouldn't it? Not what you've been used to, at all.

[Mudoria]

69. She has no objectivity

Hugo is her guiding light. When he speaks her heart goes all aflutter.

[SocialistJan]

62. Caracas is the most dangerous place in the country, not the war zones

Violence in the border with Colombia is certainly important but it is relatively small compared to the violence in the big cities by the coast. Gang criminality in the barrios, express kidnappings, violent robberies, etc.. Not politically motivated.

[EFerrari]

68. I don't know if that's accurate.

But Caracas does have problems and there is an ongoing effort to clean up the police force because they were definitely part of the problem and not the solution. ETA: And these two places are not really separate, witness the busts of Colombian paras in and around Caracas.

[SocialistJan]

70. Only 1.7% of the crimes are committed by guerrilla/paras in Venezuela

According to the latest report from the INE (State stats).

1.7% means it's really marginal.
For example, Common criminality (hampa comun) = 68.34%

The situation in Caracas is getting worse at very high speed, if you believe their own govt stats, and police is indeed part of the problem.

If you are interested in Venezuela, I can send you the INE report. You can give me an email address by PM if you want it.

Ciao

[LaPera]

12. Sounds like a teabagger march against Obama-Usual right-wing AP trash anyone who's not corporate

republican - AP propaganda trashes Chavez weekly with CIA backed incitement and neocon embellished one-sided stories.

Just as they've done with Hussein and every other leader they want to turn into the "boogieman" in order to get people fired up, then use our tax dollar paid military, send our poor & working class soldiers to go kill & die to steal other coutries resources for themselves, republican corporations - corporate wars for profit.....And we fall for this manipulative conniving bullshit every time.

AP & republicans ideology & agenda believes & supports the philosophy that the richest 2% should own everything, they hate social programs and socialism - In that everyone should have the same corporatist way of government as we do....No other kind government is acceptable, we must subversively overthrown anyone in any country who takes profits away from our imperialist corporations, screw the people of those countries - And just look at our country with this fascist corporate republican ideology that has taken hold for the past 30 years and the rich still want more with their deficit raising tax cuts and out sourced slave labor....As these same republican AP right-wingers simply say fuck us workers, middle-class and small business!

Finally objectively take a look at the violent crime in own our country where corporations now control everything wanting & stealing more & more, as the republicans are pounding hate and violence against social progressives liberals!

[Sixathome]

15. NY Times Hates Chavez

They applauded the coup in 2002 before it was over. They will work with CIA and deliver lies to anyone willing to listen. Check out this site for uncensored news http://www.projectcensored.org/
Crime in our wonderland is under reported especially when its the police doing the killing.
Socialism is for All people not the few. Chavez and others are making their world a better place while the US /CIA try to stop them.

[Judi Lynn]

45. This is an invaluable resource, Sixathome! I was lucky enough to get a X-mas gift by Projectcensored

once several years ago.

Even more people should know about them, and this is a great place to leave their link.

Welcome to D.U., Sixathome. :hi:

[Peace Patriot]

18. "Roughly 1,500" rightwing protestors?

Considering the source, that probably means 150, but even if hell has frozen over and the Associated Pukes are trying to be "roughly" accurate, 1,500 is a miserably low number for a Caracas protest. Notice how they slip in that it was raining (ahem, "scattered rains").

Scattered rains. Roughly 1,500. I think this USAID funded protest was a miserable failure, but that doesn't deter the Associated Pukes. They know their job. They can dress up ANYTHING that the U.S. taxpayer funded fascist "think tanks" in Washington cook up, to hit Chavez with, into what appears to be an internationally important story. I'm sure that, on any given day, there are at least "roughly 1,500" protestors in dozens of countries around the world, on dozens of issues that AP doesn't give a crap about. And we never hear about them.

Take the big wage protests/teachers' strike in Honduras right now, which the police are brutally trying to suppress, in the interests of U.S. multinational retailers, Chiquita International and other slave labor entities.

Photos here: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90783/91321/7120861.html

Excellent explanation of these events: http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/2010/08/newsround-the-view-from-latin-america-2/

Interesting discussion of the issues: http://quotha.net/node/1139 and http://quotha.net/blog/1
(Know what el shannonazo means? Learn about it here. Refers to Tom Shannon, Obama appointee to be U.S. ambassador to Brazil, whose nomination was held up by Jim DeMint (Diebold-SC) until the Obama administration legitimized (or tried to) the rightwing coup in Honduras.)
(Note: The "AP" reffed as "AP Blog" is not the Associated Pukes but the initials of the blogger Adrienne Pine.)

Where is the Associated Pukes' daily harassment of Pepe Lobo--the U.S. tool in Honduras, installed by a U.S.-funded so-called election, under martial law, to replace the RIGHTFULLY ELECTED PRESIDENT, Manuel Zelaya, who was kidnapped and flown out of Honduras at gunpoint, with a refueling stop at the U.S. airbase at Palmerola, Honduras? Hm? Why is AP not exposing this rightwing shit and U.S. manipulation in Honduras, where hundreds have been killed by rightwing death squads and thousands are still bravely protesting despite the repression--where protests have been on-going since the coup d'etat?

They make a big deal about a SMALL rightwing protest in Venezuela, where, evidently, most people understand that "street crime" is a manufactured anti-Chavez issue and not Chavez's fault, where everybody and anybody can peacefully protest without police repression and death squad targeting (as we are seeing in Honduras and Colombia) and where the vast majority of people LIKE Chavez and support his policies. They DON'T report this, that most Venezuelans support Chavez. Nor do they report what Chavez HAS DONE to address "street crime" (founded a national police academy to improve police professionalism in Venezuela). Nor do they report that "street crime" is a big problem in MANY Latin American countries. Nor do they report anything but contrived, contradictory rightwing "talking points"--anything to make Chavez look bad. One day, he's a "dictator"; the next, he can't control "street crime." Some "dictator."

Virtually every day we get yet another rightwing "talking point" anti-Chavez story and nothing about the most important stories in Latin America--the rightwing death squads now infesting Honduras, the rightwing massacres of trade unionists, human rights workers, teachers, community leaders, peasant farmers and others in Colombia, the displacement of 5 MILLION peasant farmers in Colombia--the second biggest human displacement crisis on earth--the U.S. military buildup in Colombia and the region, the resistance of the new leftist leadership of Latin America to U.S. domination, etc., etc. Major stories. Very, very important stories. No, they rag on Chavez day after day after day--providing fodder for rightwing posters to put up at DU, among other things.

God, I hate these journalistic lies. We CANNOT HAVE A DEMOCRACY with such a lying press. They are a disgrace to their profession.

:puke:

[sabrina 1]

29. Excellent post as always Peace Patriot.

I think the American people are waking up though, to this kind of propaganda. I noticed on other blogs where this trash posing as 'journalism' has been posted, the reaction was negative, and even angry at the obvious phoniness of the campaign against the democratic leader of a huge oil-producing country. As many of the commenters asked 'wtf, why are we even interested in this when we have so many problems of our own.'

It's so clear why this propaganda is being disseminated and after Iraq, it's a much harder sell these days.

I doubt you'll get any answers to your excellent questions from the pro-let's-destabilize-yet-another-oil-producing-country crowd.

[hack89]

21. Venezuela, More Deadly Than Iraq, Wonders Why

A court ordered the paper to stop publishing images of violence, as if that would quiet growing questions about why the government — despite proclaiming a revolution that heralds socialist values — has been unable to close the dangerous gap between rich and poor and make the country’s streets safer.

Venezuela is struggling with a decade-long surge in homicides, with about 118,541 since President Hugo Chávez took office in 1999, according to the Venezuelan Violence Observatory, a group that compiles figures based on police files. (The government has stopped publicly releasing its own detailed homicide statistics, but has not disputed the group’s numbers, and news reports citing unreleased government figures suggest human rights groups may actually be undercounting murders).

There have been 43,792 homicides in Venezuela since 2007, according to the violence observatory, compared with about 28,000 deaths from drug-related violence in Mexico since that country’s assault on cartels began in late 2006.

Caracas itself is almost unrivaled among large cities in the Americas for its homicide rate, which currently stands at around 200 per 100,000 inhabitants, according to Roberto Briceño-León, the sociologist at the Central University of Venezuela who directs the violence observatory.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/world/americas/23venez.html

on edit: Chicago has a murder rate of about 15 per 100,000

[Odin2005]

24. BS Rightist propaganda.

[EFerrari]

31. That's all we hear. We don't get stories like this one,

where the UN teamed up with Venezuela to train people on how to prevent and treat sex and gender violence.

Agency Provides Training To Combat Sexual Violence
Thursday, 26 August 2010, 6:37 pm
Press Release: United Nations

Venezuela: UN Agency Provides Training To Help Combat Sexual Violence

New York, Aug 25 2010 5:10PM

A United Nations-backed project in Venezuela has trained dozens of government officials and security force members on how to prevent sexual and gender-based violence and provide better care and protection for victims.

Medical and psycho-social care, legal and protection training was provided to about 100 workers from government institutions, non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and security forces by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees ("http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home"UNHCR) and the International Organization for Migration ("http://www.iom.int/jahia/jsp/index.jsp"IOM), the agency reported yesterday.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1008/S00434/agency-provides-training-to-combat-sexual-violence.htm

I don't remember this being plastered all over the net. lol

[Lightning Count]

32. So is the percentage of rape of refugees high?

UNHCR developed the project to help vulnerable groups in Venezuela, particularly the country’s large population of Colombian refugees who have crossed the border to avoid conflict in their homeland. Zulia lies next to the border with Colombia.

[Judi Lynn]

35. So the photo they choose to illustrate this throng of protesters shows someone protesting socialism

http://media.bonnint.net.nyud.net:8090/apimage/23e6bdf2-3d15-409a-876d-8127598ce62d.jpg
Yet we doubt this is a political thing, don't we? :eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

38. By the way, who here hasn't seen reports with nurses in our own big city hospitals

saying the gun shot victims coming in make it look as if there's a war out there? Or who on earth hasn't heard of innocent children being shot by random acts of bullets? Not long ago we read of a child asleep in a bed getting shot from a bullet crashing through his wall.

We are SO accustomed to these kinds of reports from our OWN country. We are also accustomed to a heavier load of anti-Chavez sludge in the corporate media before every Venezuelan election, just like the national election coming up there September 26.

We all note we have several new faces showing up with the anti-leftist opposition today, just prior to this imminent election.

As we ALL know, crime in the cities is in the realm of local MAYORS, not the President. As we also know, Caracas has had anti-Chavez mayors, in spades. One, Aflredo Pena, even stripped the broadcasting ability of a community tv Station, Catia TV, and several community radio stations so they could NOT broadcast information concerning the oligarchy's violent seizure of the elected President and his administration, and the fact the police were hunting down his cabinet member like common criminals to throw into prison.

We also know the murder victims of the protests were pro-Chavez supporters, and they were killed AFTER Chavez was kidnapped, making it IMPOSSIBLE for Chavez to have ordered their murder, even if he were as morally diseased as the right-wing murderous assholes of the opposition, which we know is impossible. Nothing filthier than a right-winger.

As someone in the thread brilliantly observed the Chavez threads have no interesting information in them. Someone pointed out that we have never seen anything worthwhile contributed by the right-wing opposition. Could NOT be more accurate. We do bring information when it surfaces, and anything other than anti-Chavez crap doesn't appear in corporte media. You notice by now there's cyclic repetition involved, as if it's all pinned onto a huge revolving wheel which always repeats earlier stories, sometimes with new wording. ALWAYS the same.

To get better stories you have to go to Spanish language sources then translate them, one way or another. That's also difficult since over 90% of the print journalism in Venezuela is opposition owned.

We have anti-Venezuelan democracy posters here who only have the ability to come here and attack DU posters, who NEVER have any big information which isn't in time completely ripped apart by the truth. Lies fly out fast, getting the facts takes longer. We always get the facts, eventually, while the right-wingers are off and running toward their next whopper, with insults, and slurs flying in their wake toward the sober ones among us.

Anyone willing to think carefully, thoroughly will in time start seeing the real picture coming into focus concerning what has been happening. We all basically know. There are people who have valid reasons to post, and then there are others.

[Zorro]

66. You have obvious problems focusing on the thread topic

Why don't you try to make some intelligible comments about the increase in violent crime in Venezuela, instead of petulantly whining about those that dare challenge your cartoonish view of Latin America?

BTW, you demonstrate a complete lack of credibility when you insult posters sharing opinions and observations contrary to yours, yet voice outrage when responded to in kind.

[bertman]

67. Thanks to everyone who has weighed in on this. I don't doubt that there

is truth to the horrific numbers of homicides that are occurring. This seems to have become an epidemic from the U.S. ranging south.

There are lots of reasons for the murders as has been well documented in this thread. One has been omitted so I'm going to throw it into the mix. Too many people on too few square miles of land and no sign of hope or help.

The pattern seems to be that the countryside gets cleared out by violence--guerillas vs. the government and vice versa-- or, as in Mexico, by "free trade" that kills the agricultural economy due to cheap imports of industrially-grown corn and other crops. Then, when the campesinos move into the urban jungle they have no way to make a living, so they become criminals or drug runners or whatever else that will help them to survive.

[hack89]

71. What are you talking about?

The levels of violence in America don't even begin to approach those in Central and South America. The cause of the violence is the various drug cartels and criminal gangs in the region. Not every problem in the region is our fault.

Don't also forget that violent crime has been on a steady decline in America for the past two decades and are at historic lows.

[Vogon_Glory]

81. I Wonder How Ley y Orden Will Play As A Campaign Slogan? n/t