Two dead in Visalia (Mormon) church shooting

[Newsjock]

Source: Fresno Bee

A Mormon bishop in Visalia was killed Sunday when a man entered the church complex at Tulare Avenue and Conyer Street, asked for the church's leader and then shot him, police said. The suspect later called police, who found the man a short time later in a central Visalia neighborhood north of Highway 198 and fatally shot him.

The victim was identified as Clay Sannar, 42, the father of six boys, including a six-month-old infant. Police did not identify the suspect.

Police and church officials said they don't know what prompted the shooting, which occurred in the foyer of the church about 12:35 p.m.

Ralph Jordan, a church leader, said it appears the suspect didn't know Sannar. "The suspect is not a member of the church," he added.

Read more: http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/08/29/2058190/shooting-reported-at-visalia-mormon.html

[Booster]

1. Another situation where I bet Beck's name comes up.

[iamthebandfanman]

16. lol, a beck follower gone mad

after finding out the great leader wasnt a 'real' christian lol

[arbusto_baboso]

2. My educated guess on what happened....

The shooter probably went to that church to attempt to get some financial assistance. Since mormon churches no longer aid non-members, he went away frustrated. Through a combination of mental imbalance and/or sheer desperation, he decided to come back and take it out on the bishop who refused him help. I could be wrong, but my intuition is telling me this is the scenario.

[IllinoisBirdWatcher]

7. or a crazed "christian" who thinks Mormans are like Muslims

The christians don't like anyone who is different.

[XemaSab]

9. Yo

You should join us in the birding group. :D

[digitaln3rd]

13. Why do you paint everyone with a broad brush?

There are plenty of Christians that either don't play into the right-wing views of Focus on the Family, etc or are liberal in nature.

Basically it was just a senseless element of violence.

[IllinoisBirdWatcher]

14. I was raised a Christian and respect all Christians

its the christians for whom I have no respect. Christians follow (or try to follow) the teachings of Jesus. christians make up their rules as they go, selecting individual Torah verses to justify their anger and hate while ignoring the verses before and after. Then willy-nilly jump to flaunt the New Testament.

Christians live (or try to live) by a high moral code.

christians hate.

christians seem to claim a magic bluetooth through which their god speaks only to them.

You are absolutely correct about Christians.

[digitaln3rd]

15. I think I understand!

I stand corrected :)

[amandabeech]

18. I've never heard anyone raised in the Christian faith call the Old Testament the "Torah."

[IllinoisBirdWatcher]

24. Duh, and I didn't call the Old Testament the Torah, duh

Some Christians welcome all religions and actually do try to learn from others...

So long ago as great Christians, our amazing Presbyterian teachers took us to other Protestant services, then Catholic, then Eastern Orthodox, and yes, even Jewish services where we learned Torah is only the first six books of what we call the Old Testament, and not the whole book itself.

Turns out those first six books are not only the story of the beginning, but are the rules which allowed a nomadic tribe survive in a desert for thousands of years.

Those tribal rules are what the "christians" like to so selectively quote when they are slinging hate against their enemy-of-the-week (usually gays, sometimes womens' choice doctors and their clinics, but this week Muslims).

So I wish you well. Perhaps you can treat yourself to a delicious surf-n-turf dinner complete with a shrimp coctail and lots of sour cream on your potato.

Me, I will just enjoy my cheeseburger and a cool chocolate malt.

[No Elephants]

30. first five books, aka "Pentateuch," "penta" meaning 5

[No Elephants]

29. Did you follow the link and read the article?

[boppers]

8. What? "Since mormon churches no longer aid non-members."

What are you talking about? It's not like the thrift store down the street closed up shop...

[kestrel91316]

10. I wasn't aware that they EVER aided nonmembers. And yes, my dad's side

of the family was ALL Mormon.

[boppers]

12. I was born and raised Mormon.

I dunno if anything's changed in the last 20 years (I haven't been active since I learned to think for myself), but we went out and did community work all the time... not to mentions the food banks, clothing banks, thrift stores, canneries, etc...


edit:typo

[FreeState]

19. They do aid non members

Each stake generally has a rotating Bishop (by month) that has the responsibility of working with both non-members and members who don't live in the area and need help.

[boppers]

23. TY for your voice.

Sometimes it gets lonely.

[arbusto_baboso]

27. But the budgets are pretty much non-existant now.

Which means members get priority. Duh.

[FreeState]

28. Hmmm I havent seen that and my Dad is a Bishop n/t

[arbusto_baboso]

32. I think your dad is lying to you.

Or you aren't being completely truthful with us.

"Lying for the Lord" is a common mormon precept. I was a 2nd Counselor myself before I discovered it was ALL a lie and invention of a con-man.

[No Elephants]

31. Did you follow the link in the OP and read the article?

[Anakin Skywalker]

3. .

.

[cyndensco]

4. The victim was the father of six. The suspect has not been identified.

[Anakin Skywalker]

5. Oops. I Read Too Fast. *red face embarassed*

THANK YOU for your correction.

I am returning my "Speed Reading Course" for a full refund now.

[ZombieHorde]

6. Sad. nt

[JDPriestly]

11. Another case of senseless violence. How sad.

[sfwriter]

17. I've seen lots of speculation about the shooter

No details yet...

Scanner has reportedly mentioned the name Zane Thomas.

local coverage here: http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/section/NEWS01

Why would you just randomly target a Mormon church leader?

Church members say they had never seen the shooter and the victim didn't recognize him.

I've seen lots of comments saying he was an atheist, an obama supporter, a prop 8 hater, etc. Watch Fox jump on this if he was any of those things.

[FreeState]

20. The police have said it is not Zane Thomas

http://vegasmormon.blogspot.com/2010/08/mormon-bishop-gunned-down-in-california.html

I also find it interesting that the news reported: "A church spokesman said no one at the church recognized the shooter. The spokesman, Ralph Jordan, said the shooter did not ask for Sannar by name but instead asked for “the president or the bishop.”" http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/article/20100829/NEWS01/100829002/UPDATE++Church-shooting+victim+identified+as+Lay+Bishop+Clay+Sannar++suspected+shooter+not+yet+named+

President - Im guessing is in reference to Stake President - This church building is what is known as a Stake Center - which is a building where the local Wards (congregations) overseeing leadership has offices and meetings (the Stake President presides over the local Bishops). So if the shooter was using that language he knows about the church, enough to understand there would be a Stake President and at least one Bishop there.

I doubt this has anything to do with Prop 8 - in fact its funny how to me how some members of the Church in the comments jump to that conclusion - when I was growing up all the members I knew got mad when everyone judged the Church by the actions of one bad member - but yet here they are doing the same when no one knows the shooter or his motivation at this time. I for one know I don't jump to the conclusion every time there is a gay bashing it was done by a Mormon....

[sfwriter]

22. that is interesting...

I wondered about the mormon connection.

[earcandle]

21. Here we go, starting the religious wars in america. give me a fucking break. the gullibility is

rancid and needs repair.

Folks, back off this shit.  It isn't healthy.
Don't give it any power.  The people who act like
this are criminals, not crusaders. Stay out of the way.

[sfwriter]

25. Kenneth James Ward is the shooter

He is from Modesto, CA

http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/08/29/2058190/shooting-reported-at-visalia-mormon.html

[sfwriter]

26. Gunnman had been SHUNNED TO HELL by Mormon Biship in teh 1980s

http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/article/20100830/NEWS01/100830004/Man+accused+of+killing+church+leader+was+former+member+of+LDS+church++felt+wronged++brother+says

Religious motivated shooting...

"This is not politically motivated. This is not because of Prop. 8, " Mike Ward said. "He was a great bigger brother. We are so sorry to the victim's family. "

Kenneth Ward and his parents and sister live in Modesto. Mike Ward lives in Bakersfield.

Ward said his brother believed he had been "shunned to hell" by the Bishop and that is why he asked for a Bishop when he walked into to the church Sunday around 12:30 p.m.

[John Kerry VonErich]

33. What did he do to get shunned?

nt

[Xithras]

34. He was excommunicated, but Mormons don't believe that the excommunicated go to hell.

In fact, in the Mormon religion, it's pretty damned hard to get sent to hell. You have to pretty much walk up to physical Jesus and tell him that you don't believe in him. Since there's no physical Jesus around, you can't exactly do that. The Mormons also don't practice shunning.

All told, the Mormon excommunication process is actually pretty mild. Excommunicated members can still attend church (though they're not allowed to participate in a couple of activities), and can even be re-baptized after a waiting period and repentance. It's not like some religions where they literally bar the doors or throw you out.

[sfwriter]

35. This guy was obviously not the sharpest....

He took it the wrong way.