Debt Plan Would Cut Social Security, Medicare

[swag]

Source: Bloomberg

By Heidi Przybyla and Brian Faler

Nov. 10 (Bloomberg) -- The co-chairmen of President Barack Obama’s debt-reduction commission will propose cuts to Social Security and Medicare, as well as reductions in income tax rates in exchange for curbing tax breaks, according to a Republican aide who attended the meeting.

The chairmen’s plan is already causing some Democrats and Republicans on the 18-member commission to balk. The plan will be announced at 1 p.m. Washington time today, said a commission spokesman, Fred Baldassaro.

“This is not a package that I could support,” said Representative Jan Schakowsky, an Illinois Democrat. She said any package able to win 14 votes on the commission would have to look “very different” from the options being discussed.

Senator Dick Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, said the plan is only a starting point.



Read more: http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aqn9rGlhM9wI

[rurallib]

1. boy there is a surprise

imagine if they would have proposed hiking taxes on the rich and cutting the military.
imagine if they would have proposed penalties for taking jobs out of the US.

[CLANG]

49. imagine if the would have lifted the social security tax cap

[DesertFlower]

136. i don't understand why they don't.

well i do understand. the rich would have to put more into the fund.

[femrap]

160. Poor widdle

rich people....they're sharing-challenged bipeds.

May they choke on their money.

[Yupster]

286. Yes - to me

there are two obvious things to do.

1. Get rid of the cap

2. Bring every worker into the system.

Those two seem like gimmees and they're never done.

[DesertFlower]

135. which is exactly what they should be doing.

[MN TN]

260. There is an even greater threat to SS that hasn't been mentioned here

Comes from a writer for Huffington Post:

"The most direct assault on Social Security, however, may not be the increase of the retirement age, but rather an attempt to tilt the program toward a welfare model and away from the current, universal insurance model that has made it popular and enduring despite 75 years of attacks. The co-chairs propose to "increase progressivity of benefit formula by creating a new bendpoint at the 50th percentile." Such a move would require means testing. In other words, the government would determine benefits based on a beneficiary's assets and other sources of income. Currently, beneficiaries are paid benefits based on their contribution over their working life. Replacing the social insurance model with a welfare model would erode support, encourage fraud and ultimately undermine the program."
Social Security would be viewed more as a social welfare program, thus more likely to be eliminated altogether.

[roguevalley]

171. This is Obama's committee and their idiot choices. Therefore,

he can take the thing and stuff it up his ass. Kick me, a retired person on a fixed income and let rich bitches get richer? FUCK ALL OF THEM!!!

[countrydad58]

209. I am on ss disability.

Obama & his commission can absolutely go FUCK theirselves!

[roguevalley]

246. you and me both, honey. huffingtonpost says he caved on the

bush tax cuts. he's a fucker, pure and simple. god help us all. I'm glad I'm old. I don't have to live as a fucking slave and shoe wipe for rich parasites as long as the young ones do.

[GOTV]

252. He staffed the commitee so I'd say it's HIS idiot choices ...

... the propensities of the people he picked are well known.

[saigon68]

265. Welcome to the third world

"Tramps and lazy trash will no longer get food stamps and free medical care", stated Bohner

[Vincardog]

2. Since Social Security has NO EFFECT on the budget BY LAW it has to be OFF THE TABLE (.)

AS for Medicaid take out the GOP's pharmacy give away and we are talking about real money.

[JackRiddler]

12. Social Security has a huge effect on the budget...

FICA for 30 years has collected large surpluses over SS payments, which have been invested in t-bills, and thus financed the deficit of the regular budget, which is primarily devoted to the war machine.

[trud]

19. SS funds wars

"FICA for 30 years has collected large surpluses over SS payments"

You got that right. Get the readily available info from the SS administration about what they've collected from you in SS taxes over the years, write a little program assuming that had been earning passbook compound interest for decades, and you will see they're swimming in your money. Those of us currently retired will NEVER get back what they taxed us for and the interest it's earned and is still earning.

One thing that infuriates me is the chant that today's workers are paying for retirees. No, we've paid through the nose ourselves.

Here's a clue: stop spending hundreds of millions on useless criminal wars.

[JackRiddler]

41. We know the figure: $2.6 trillion in treasury notes.

That's the "crisis." That Social Security has saved up $2.6 trillion, and a government with more than a trillion annual deficit doesn't want to pay it back, but to roll it over into the real Ponzi scheme: Wall Street.

[DoctorK]

117. not savings, just promises to borrow

the IOUs the SSA holds from the Treasury aren't savings. They're essentially unmarketed bonds.

Imagine if each paycheck you 'saved' $100 dollars by writing yourself a bond and then spending the $100.
When you decided to retire would those bonds you wrote to yourself constitute actual savings you could go and spend, or an obligation on you to keep making money in order to redeem them?

When you grasp that you'll understand why SS is broken by design.

[JackRiddler]

130. The point is that the government owes that money to the Social Security fund.

Analogous to how a bank owes deposits to its customers. That money was raised by FICA, and it was not spent by Social Security but lent to (another word for deposited with) the US government. The US government spent it elsewhere, but still owes it.

[still_one]

144. You are absolutely correct, however, I would replace the word owes with stole /nt

[DoctorK]

216. Where do you think the US government gets its money?

It gets it from us.

The US government isn't someone else who makes money and will pay you back. It is us. Our government spent all the money it took from us, and then some. If the government owes the government money, that means we owe the government money.

[JackRiddler]

224. I'm aware of it, and posted on this point two years ago...

Nevertheless, it doesn't have to be this way. The other choice is to tax the rich and cut the war machine.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3526400&mesg_id=3526400

What Social Security fund? It's already gone.
Edited on Thu Jun-26-08 06:43 PM by JackRiddler

In all the talk of Republicans wanting to plunder Social Security for the stock market, the most essential fact has been forgotten: They already plundered the entire fund for the regular federal debt. All of it. Is gone. Will never be repaid, any more than the rest of the federal debt. Bush already called it "meaningless IOUs," by which he was referring to Treasury notes of the United States. There is nothing left to privatize, unless the federal government can come up with 2.5 trillion to put back from what it took. Ha ha. The privatization debate is partly the ravings of completely deluded lunatics and free-market fanatics in denial, and no doubt partly a way to disguise the fact that there is nothing there to privatize. It serves to confuse about what happened, because the day will one day arrive when current FICA intake no longer covers outgoing SS expenditure, and on that day everyone will acknowledge what most of the key players already know:

IT'S NOT THERE. IT WAS SPENT ALREADY TO COVER DEFICITS, MAINLY ON THE PENTAGON AND IRAQ AND INTEREST PAYMENTS ON PAST DEBT.

[Enthusiast]

249. Social security recipients

are on the moral high ground. Those that spent the money on tax cuts for millionaires and wars or choice are downright evil.

[Generic Other]

161. More like you 'saved' $100 dollars by writing yourself a bond

and someone else spent it every month. You are still owed that money, and someone else should go to jail.

[DoctorK]

218. the government is us

The government isn't someone else.

We spent that money on other things and wrote ourselves a check that we're supposed to earn the money for later.

If a private 'insurance' or 'retirement' system was run the same way someone would go to jail (think Madoff).

[Generic Other]

227. Government = Madoff with military force to back him up

Taxpayers = ripped off serfs forced to invest.

I am not one of the thieving warmongering teabagging imperialist usurper class that currently reigns and claims to be my government. I have not agreed with a single policy they instituted my whole life. In fact, I fought most of the decisions "my" government crammed down my throat.

They are not me.

If they were me, we would live in a country where no one went to bed hungry or went without having basic health needs met. We would not have a standing Army or a bloated military-industrial complex. We would value workers and education. That is the government that is me. The one in power now is some fat cat thief who belongs in a jail cell.

[Kingofalldems]

167. Sounds like republican-speak to me

i.e. "broken by design". And thanks for the condescension.

[zogofzorkon]

206. sounds that way to me too and I have very good ears

[DoctorK]

219. what do you want to call it

when the government creates an 'insurance' system with no assets other than claims on future taxpayers and that spends the excess proceeds of the tax established for it, well, since FOREVER!

[Iowa]

168. Utter right-wing nonsense...

The SS trust fund contains treasury securities. Savvy investors buy treasury securities every day. Right-wing, wealthy, fat-cats want to continue to invest in treasury securities (and rely on the full faith and credit guarantee), but they want the government to renege on the treasury securities in the trust fund that are owned by workers. The only way they'll get this done is to push bullshit lies, like the lies you are spewing here about the securities in the trust fund being worthless "IOUs". When ever you hear someone spewing bullshit about IOUs when addressing the Social Security issue, you're either dealing with a right-wing troll, or someone who doesn't have the slightest clue and is just parroting what he heard someone else say.

The SS system isn't "broken by design"... it is quite sound and in need of some slight tweaking to protect younger workers. What's broken is the notion that the government can cut taxes while simultaneously raising spending to fund wars about nothing, bank bailouts, etc. Hell, Social Security is the only piece of the government that ISN'T broken.

You have it totally and completely wrong.

[DoctorK]

225. point by point

"The SS trust fund contains treasury securities. Savvy investors buy treasury securities every day. Right-wing, wealthy, fat-cats want to continue to invest in treasury securities (and rely on the full faith and credit guarantee), but they want the government to renege on the treasury securities in the trust fund that are owned by workers."

President Clinton’s Office of Management and Budget:
Balances are available to finance future benefit payments and other Trust Fund expenditures – but only in a bookkeeping sense…. They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures.

Do you understand that? Redeeming those Treasuries to pay out benefits require the government to raise taxes, or borrow more money from the public (in other words sell real Treasuries, to China, Japan and fat-cats) that will only add to the net national debt and raise the net interest expense of the government.

"The SS system isn't "broken by design"... it is quite sound and in need of some slight tweaking to protect younger workers."

Borrowing money from your savings and promising that your kids will pay for it isn't 'quite sound', nor does it 'protect younger workers'. It raids younger workers to make up for the fact that previous generations spent what should have been their retirement savings on other government activities (from war to welfare).

"Hell, Social Security is the only piece of the government that ISN'T broken."

It is in structural deficit RIGHT NOW (more money going out than coming in), and the 'trust fund' is merely a promise to raise more debt (or taxes).

You have it totally and completely wrong.

[JackRiddler]

268. The SS system is far from broken.

The question is to what extent the government is broken in its ability down the line to repay what it owes SS (or corrupt in its ability to find an excuse not to repay what it owes SS). You're assuming treasuries will forever be the most secure possible investment, but if you look around, you will see that nations do default. That's not a prediction about the US, but a real possibility, especially long as the country's real economic surpluses are directed not into rational investment and prosperity for the people but the big black holes of the military and the zombie banks.

I think you will agree it can't be said often enough in this debate that SS accumulated a $2.6 trillion surplus and therefore is not the source of the crisis. The government's books are in crisis. The refusal to tax the rich, the destruction of wealth through the war machine, and the banking class who are trying to destroy SS are the source of the crisis.

[Iowa]

274. WTF?

Either get on board and defend the system or join in with the right-wingers and contribute to its demise. You're basically restating much of what I said (with some bullshit added), while twisting it in such a way as to undermine faith in the SS system.

[JackRiddler]

276. Sir yes sir, I will reproduce your simple talking points as ordered, sir!

[creeksneakers2]

215. Why that's not a good analogy

The money that was borrowed by the federal government substituted for money that would have been borrowed elsewhere, so there were savings. The money won't be paid back by the government so its not like lending money to yourself. The money will be paid back by the future earnings of future generations, who will be better off than if the money had been borrowed elsewhere, because what they pay to redeem the bonds will go back into the American economy.

[DoctorK]

221. I'll revise the analogy

you issue yourself a bond for your retirement and spend the money you should have saved for retirement, and then tell your kids they have to pay more taxes to redeem the bonds, and by the way, they have to pay for their retirement too. Genius! Americans got away with it for decades and decades, always passing higher taxes and lower benefits off on the next generation. This latest proposal continues the tradition.

[Enthusiast]

250. Grasp this. nt

[Raster]

114. CORRECTION: stop spending hundreds of BILLIONS on useless criminal wars.

[Moostache]

267. Absolutely true!

"Here's a clue: stop spending hundreds of millions on useless criminal wars."

A-fucking-men to THAT!

The very first recommendation from this commission should be a 75% reduction in military spending and a COMPLETE defunding of all undeclared, and thus illegal, wars within 90 days.

[Vincardog]

61. The funds paid come from FICA and earnings of those same funds. They CAN NOT come out of General

Revenue. The effect they have on the budget is to hide how much in the read it is.

[JackRiddler]

80. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Social Security has had a beneficial effect on the general budget.

The true story is almost the exact opposite of the crisis narrative that the liars are spinning.

[Raster]

244. the crisis narrative is necessary for the government to avoid reimbursing the people...

...for the funds "borrowed" from the Social Security trust fund to provide tax breaks for rich people and fund unnecessary and illegal wars.

[Igel]

82. Yes and no.

The FICA shortfall will be made up using the special-issue debt obligations issued to the Social Security Administration when the surplus was taken (and used) by Congress. So officially it'll be SS money being used.

On the other hand, currently the SSA only has the special t-bills. When it redeems them for "real money" that money will come from some place. Billions and billions of dollars of it. *That* will come out of general revenues.

In the past the FICA money paid for part of the deficit. Now--or in a few years, per projections--the borrowed money gets to be paid back and that will push the deficit higher.

[Vincardog]

99. That is because of TAX cuts for the rich and insane economic policies that REDUCE JOBs in the USA

Not Social Security.

[still_one]

145. Top 5 Social Security Myths:

http://pol.moveon.org/ssmyths/

[JackRiddler]

285. Four out of five is not bad...

I'm assuming MoveOn wants their material reproduced, so here are their five arguments:

http://pol.moveon.org/ssmyths/

Myth: Social Security is going broke.

Reality: There is no Social Security crisis. By 2023, Social Security will have a $4.3 trillion surplus (yes, trillion with a 'T'). It can pay out all scheduled benefits for the next quarter-century with no changes whatsoever.1 After 2037, it'll still be able to pay out 75% of scheduled benefits--and again, that's without any changes. The program started preparing for the Baby Boomers retirement decades ago.2 Anyone who insists Social Security is broke probably wants to break it themselves.

Myth: We have to raise the retirement age because people are living longer.

Reality: This is a red-herring to trick you into agreeing to benefit cuts. Retirees are living about the same amount of time as they were in the 1930s. The reason average life expectancy is higher is mostly because many fewer people die as children than did 70 years ago.3 What's more, what gains there have been are distributed very unevenly--since 1972, life expectancy increased by 6.5 years for workers in the top half of the income brackets, but by less than 2 years for those in the bottom half.4 But those intent on cutting Social Security love this argument because raising the retirement age is the same as an across-the-board benefit cut.

Myth: Benefit cuts are the only way to fix Social Security.

Reality: Social Security doesn't need to be fixed. But if we want to strengthen it, here's a better way: Make the rich pay their fair share. If the very rich paid taxes on all of their income, Social Security would be sustainable for decades to come.5 Right now, high earners only pay Social Security taxes on the first $106,000 of their income.6 But conservatives insist benefit cuts are the only way because they want to protect the super-rich from paying their fair share.

Myth: The Social Security Trust Fund has been raided and is full of IOUs

Reality: Not even close to true. The Social Security Trust Fund isn't full of IOUs, it's full of U.S. Treasury Bonds. And those bonds are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States.7 The reason Social Security holds only treasury bonds is the same reason many Americans do: The federal government has never missed a single interest payment on its debts. President Bush wanted to put Social Security funds in the stock market--which would have been disastrous--but luckily, he failed. So the trillions of dollars in the Social Security Trust Fund, which are separate from the regular budget, are as safe as can be.

Myth: Social Security adds to the deficit

Reality: It's not just wrong -- it's impossible! By law, Social Security funds are separate from the budget, and it must pay its own way. That means that Social Security can't add one penny to the deficit.1

------------

Four out of five are true, but US Treasury bonds are IOUs. By definition. Like all forms of promissory note.

IOU does not mean worthless. It means the money has been deposited with a borrower who is obligated to pay it back. In practice, most borrowers usually do pay back what they owe.

In this case, the borrower has spent all the money deposited with it on aggressive wars and a variety of unproductive subsidies for the super-rich, with very bad collateral effects on its economy resulting in a global crash.

Currently, some of the people representing the borrower are arguing the borrower may not, in fact, be able to pay back all of the IOUs. This is creating doubt about the "full faith and credit of the United States." Countries go bankrupt all the time, actually. Even ones who had, until that moment, always paid their interest on time.

But I don't think the US is going bankrupt just yet. Certain elements are trying to make it feel that way.

The other four myths are the propaganda being used to make the fifth myth (that the SS fund is "only IOUs") a reality.

.

[ProudDad]

125. Correct-a-mundo!

And taken out and blown up...

[still_one]

143. They stole the money from the social security fund for that, which is why Al Gore said it would be

put in a lock box, but all the wonderful media and rethugs used that as a laughing talking point

The stupidity of the American public NEVER fails to amaze me

[Honeycombe8]

202. I don't know about THAT, but it affects the budget in that ...

for any deficiencies in SS for benefits payments, the govt has to kick in and pay the benefits. When the govt is broke (like now), then it has to borrow the money, adding to the deficit.

[JackRiddler]

231. You're missing the point. Until now, FICA/SS has never been in deficit.

It has always produced a surplus, which is in t-bills held by the Social Security fund.

The question going forward is how this debt to Social Security will be paid. The austerity proposal is not to pay it, but to cut Social Security. The only reasonable proposal is to remove the FICA cap and cut the war machine instead.

[Honeycombe8]

281. Well, the SS fund has been wiped out before.

It's supposed to be in a lock box, but it has been "borrowed" before Bush borrowed it.

But the SS fund has never run a deficit (if you include the $ owed the fund by the fed govt), even now.

The fund will start running a deficit in, I think, 10 years or so from now.

I don't think SS should be cut, either. Definitely not. Or at least for those age 50 or over.

I'm not sure about raising the cap. I'm not clear on that. The people in the upper brackets cap out at a certain point because there's no way those people will get that money back in benefits. That makes it NOT really Social Security, but just an extra tax that they pay that others don't. Social Security is a deal...you pay in, and you will get that $$$ back in your senior years. I don't like the idea of just adding a tax without calling it what it is...not part of Social Security, but just an added tax on those with more money (mind you, it's not a tax on the richest...it adds a tax to those just above the cap).

[defendandprotect]

279. SS was never intended to run surplusses ...a pay-as-you-go system which

was scammed with the "baby boomer" ruse which raised huge surplusses which

have been used as SLUSH FUNDS for wars and tax cuts for the rich.

The increases in FICA for the "baby boomer" ruse pushed the burden of FICA

onto the shoulders of the poor and middle class --

while creating surplusses which disguised the monstrous MIC budget, etal.

Social Security is paid for by employees and employers and simply administered

by government -- shouldn't be in General Budget -- only there because it helps

cover up what is really going on!

[aggiesal]

72. Any serious decussion about reducing debt, ...

has to start with the "Military Industrial Complex" and their known
accomplices the Pentagon.

[lafayettelonewolf]

138. EXACTLY!

The Military Industrial Complex has to go.....NOW!!!!

[ProudDad]

124. Enhanced and Improved Medicare for All

Any of the stop gap measures they're taking to shore up the for-profit USAmerican Sick Care system WILL NOT WORK!

Whereas a single-payer health care system that takes the obscene profits out of the system and actually becomes a "Health Care" system would save the US Govt. $10 TRILLION over the next 10 years...

[Raster]

245. Except that is $10 TRILLION not going into the pockets of the rich.

We could fix health care in this country in two years, providing a high-level of health care for all citizens. Of course we would have to introduce a single-payer health care system that leaves the for-profit health care insurance companies out of the equation. We would also need to rewrite the rules to allow the single-payer entity the right to negotiate for drugs and services.

[Raster]

243. Remove the bush*/GOP provision against Medicare negotiating ...

...with drug companies for lowest prices and we are talking about real money.

[Recursion]

253. Ummm... it has no net effect over the life of the program

It may cause huge deficits for decades, however.

[stray cat]

3. Reducing taxes for Donald Trump and Congress and taking money from grandma!

what a platform!

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Well, Jesus, it's been working for the Republicans for the past 40 years.

Dems may be a little slow, but eventually they recognize a good idea when they see t.

[RoccoR5955]

102. No he hasn't... He's been cutting lawns. n/t

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[harvey007]

164. Have you watched "The Obama Deception?"

More and more people are going to believe they WERE deceived by Obama if he doesn't raise holy hell over this.

[countrydad58]

210. He sure did!

He needs to go, I have nothing but contempt for him & fucking DLC cabinet He hand picked!

[kiranon]

152. This would make me not vote for Obama and I thought I'd never say that.

[defendandprotect]

178. We need a new Democratic liberal candidate in 2012 ....

but reaction to all of this new "Shock" can't wait --

Social Security and Medicare under attack --

NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE FOR ALL --

Precatory capitalism still inflicting its pain on citizens -- unchecked!

And more hawks pushing for an attack on Iran --

WHERE IS THE REACTION BY LIBERALS????

[txlibdem]

232. I'm waiting for the Liberals and Progressives to stop acting like a collection of limp noodles

Now that the Democratic Party "centrists" have moved so far right that Adolph Hitler would be scared of them I wonder what will be the straw that breaks the camel's back. What it will take to make the Progressives take to the streets, take up arms, or hell, even order up a pizza. Just get off your back sides, Progressives!

What are you waiting for? Health care? Financial reform? Credit card reform? Bailouts for every trickle down BS under the sun but not a dime for the working Americans? What will it take?

I guess the sound of jackboots will be needed to wake them from their peaceful slumber of the meek.

[defendandprotect]

240. Notice also how quite the liberal organizations are ....

Never called Democrats out to demonstrate for MEDICARE FOR ALL --

and never against the "Cat Food Commission" -- all silent on the anti-war

front, pretty much as far as I can see? Of course, these things were

reflected overall in the recent rallies -- but insufficient as far as I can see.

Don't get going to DC when no one is there!!

Also, no organizing of Dem supporters for a counter-group to the T-baggers!

They're bought and paid for by rightwing, as usual -- we'd have come out for nothing!

I was also hoping that maybe Michael Moore would begin to lead us out of this desert!

But how much more can we ask of him?

Overall ... you can see the strain when it is Democrat in office .... no one wants

to call him out!

[txlibdem]

259. contrast with Europeans

They raise the age of retirement to 65... Millions riot, unions strike in sympathy and solidarity, total mayhem.
:patriot: here in the US, they've ALREADY raised it to 67 (that's what mine is -- a nice surprise after working 30 years thinking it was going to be 65) and now they're on path to raise it to 68 then 69 -- and the pundits are roaring that they should raise it to 70 right away. Do you see anybody in the streets? Nope, especially not the "I got mine" set that's for sure.

In London, they raise tuition for university and... Millions riot, members of the Anarchist movement glom onto it and break windows.
:patriot: here in the US, they raise tuition every year, year after year, as much as they want and usually much more than inflation. Many students will now have to drop out or at least postpone. Do you see anybody in the streets?

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Who hasn't been able to smell this incoming turd for at least

the past 6 months?

Anybody surprised?

A fair and balanced commission, headed by a Republcan (who wants to gut & privatize SS & Medicare) and a Democrat (who wants to gut but maybe not privatize SS & Medicare).

I'm so happy we have a compromise-minded Administration who can work out wonderful ideas like this, rather than some ideologue Democrat who thinks he owes something to the drug-addled "professional leftists" with their retarded notions about curbing the greed of the rich and distributing some of the wealth downward.

[blackspade]

6. Nope, no surprise here.

[me b zola]

7. Nor here n/t

[Lugnut]

86. Not here either. n/t

[cstanleytech]

14. I am wondering if some of the dems might be

only supporting this is an effort to goad the republicans to grab that 3rd rail and fry themselves.
After all if the republicans support it and its passed you can almost bet that they will not win the White House in 2012 and might even lose congress but if they balk and say no to it then the dems and turn it around and accuse the republicans of being dishonest in their claims of wanting to cut spending, either way its a win win for the dems.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. Jackpine's Fourth Law:

Never attribute to diabolical cleverness any political act by a Democrat that is better explained by stupidity and cowardice.

[crazylikafox]

24. I'm afraid you're right

[blackspade]

51. Tragically correct...

[Lucky 13]

57. but...but...but... he's playing 3 dimensional chess!!!

:sarcasm:

[chimpymustgo]

205. Parcheesi...again.

[myrna minx]

103. *sigh* too true.

:-(

[avaistheone1]

113. Your problem is that you expect

Obama to be a god, don't you?


:sarcasm:

[Jackpine Radical]

137. I'd settle for him being a Democrat.

[lark]

146. winner winner chicken dinner

I too would so love for him to be a Dem for once outside of campaign speeches.

[MissDeeds]

165. Ditto n/t

[humbled_opinion]

174. LOL....

I love it... and so true.... Obama turning into Raygun before our very eyes... but doesn't the fool understand that the Rightwingers will never like him... never support him... never... not even if he went further right then their god ronnie....

Can't he take a hint when he created that monstrositiy of a Health Care Reform plan that looked like it was written by rightwing nuts with things like the mandates under penalty of law, that the young and the middleclass now have to make the insurance corporations rich.

[tomp]

254. while i generally support your ideas, your rule is wrong.

the dems are extremely clever. they have managed to convince generations of poor and working people that they care. the historical pattern of deception is so grossly apparent as to hardly require a refutation. they do this with periodic bones and crumbs designed to look like magnificent prizes (see health care reform). that is all, but it seems to work every time.

[cstanleytech]

257. Maybe in some other dimension the democrats have the ability to

do whatever they want without being opposed but in ours they have to deal with an opposing party that has the ability to stonewall their efforts so ya that means they cannot always do what they say they will and that sometimes they have to change their plans because of that fact but it doesnt mean that they are lying that they care.

[tomp]

282. come back when you have something relevant.

or when you can explain the cat food commission, or obama's selection of wall street criminals as advisors, or why the democrats support war as much as the republicans historically, or.......just when you wish to actually think.

they are lying, it's beyond question.

[No Elephants]

73. Because politics are more important than seniors and the disabled.

[David__77]

119. It's Obama's commission.

He owns it, not Republicans. There isn't complicated.

[Enthusiast]

251. That would be one convoluted plan.

Any cuts enacted will be blamed on Obama and the Democrats anyway.

The M$M will shift the blame no matter what happens. Think about it. Obama is being blamed for the economy while GOP deregulation is mostly responsible. See, the blame has been successfully shifted by a complicit media. Just proposing cuts to social security will hurt the Democrats, even if the cuts don't materialize. I suspect this has been by design.

[madville]

288. To be passed President Obama and the Senate would have to approve

So no way to really blame this on the Republicans without frying everybody in the process.

[harun]

54. As soon as we heard the name "Baucus" we all knew this was coming.

[nashville_brook]

151. anyone who has dared post about it here has been flamed to hell and back.

truth does hurt, and no amount of unreccing won't make this go away.

[defendandprotect]

179. Unfortunately those on the corporate side here hide it rather well....

usually the only evidence we see of it is the UN's ....

and occassionally two or three come out together to attack.

But sanity is on the side of those who stand against these increasingly

bizarre right wing lies and propaganda which suggest that Social Security

has something to do with the national debt -- it does not!

Social Security is paid for thru FICA by employees and employers --

Social Security costs the government nothing --

Government simply administrates the program -- .03% administrative costs.


I think it's telling that we can be convinced that there is no Global Warming ---

that the horrific pollution -- death and destruction we're causing all of the planet

has nothing to do with anything -- there is evidently no balance sheet for all of this

insanity!

And, as we have stood down from defending the earth against these monsters -- we

presumably are too late to defend even ourselves!!

[donco6]

182. Not at all surprised. Though I would be surprised -

to see those who denied it would happen come back here to apologize for their stupidity.

[Smashcut]

8. We'll hear soon enough why this is Transformational Change (TM)

Or that Obama had nothing to do with this Commission, even though he selected everyone on it...

[lumpy]

45. Distrubing that Alan Simpson, retired filthy repub, is on that panel.

Jesus Christ !

[dgibby]

97. More disturbing that that

is the fact that Obama is the one who appointed him.

[defendandprotect]

185. Obama's Cat Food Commission ..... all right wing Repugs ....

[MisterP]

64. or that it's all the Republicans' doing, or that Boner and SonOfaMitch are EVEN MOAR anti-SocSec nt

[Riverman]

9. Cut the Fucking Pentagon, not Old People's Health Care and Pensions

SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!

[harun]

56. Works for me T-BAGGER's say they are willing to cut defense spending

let's see if they mean it.

(We know they don't, and are full of sh*t)

[defendandprotect]

187. We could cut MIC expenses by 28% immediately by MERGING THE SERVICES.....

Something that all other nations have done!

And imagine the costs over two decades of bouncing homosexuals -- !!!

[Crowman1979]

10. Yeah, let's ignore that elephant in the room called the defense budget.

All while the Rethugs snort gunpowder and inject crude into their veins.

[Xenotime]

275. Thank you.

[JackRiddler]

11. Surprise surprise surprise. Anything but end the wars and cut the Pentagon in half.

[n2doc]

13. And cut the so-called Homeland "security" budget n/t

[leveymg]

15. If Obama doesn't fire the Catfood Commission, he's going to own its recommendations.

He made this thing, and he now needs to unmake it, and distance himself form it. Like, today.

[closeupready]

28. He won't and he will - probably enthusiastically.

Since opponents will largely be those who supported him in 2008.

[HereSince1628]

16. I've seen the results of another special commission...

and I know that the outcome was predetermined in a different venue. I can't help but be skeptical that this commission isn't just theater following a script that was similarly prewritten.

We couldn't have medicare for all, because the plan all along was to reduce it.

[n2doc]

17. 70 percent cut in SS benefits, 30% increase in SS taxes

Boy , that is sure going to be popular! Bet they don't raise the income limit cap.

[MannyGoldstein]

29. Where do you see those figures?

Thanks.

[n2doc]

33. here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/10/debt-commission-report-social-security-medicare-_n_781606.html

from this:

In the process of pursuing their reforms for Social Security and Medicare, the commission chairs are expected to suggest that the end result will be a 70 percent cut in benefits and 30 percent increase in revenues, according to the source familiar with the upcoming announcement.

[Hoyt]

34. The actual draft report doesn't say that, or anything close.

Some idiot needs the boot for reporting something so ludicrous. I know it's hard to trust Republicons, but jeez folks.

[Action]

18. Baby Boomers

were nuts to support the repubs. Millions of us would be kicked to the curb.

Why don't voters take the repubs at their word? They want to eliminate all the programs that folks like the Baby Boomers need.

I just don't get why they vote for them.

[trud]

21. ageism

I also get really tired of the assumption that older people are all Republicans. You want ageism? How about young people who have an abysmal record of even voting for anyone?

[HereSince1628]

22. Or maybe the under 30's did this to us by not voting.

The inactment would undoubtedly be incrimental, and will introduce universal gambling to retirement planning. Counting on investors for retirement is like counting on them to rationally manage mortgages. :(

Either way, nothing has passed Congress. And just maybe the outgoing dems will get a backbone and stop this.

[Lucky 13]

53. "...maybe the outgoing dems will get a backbone and stop this..."

:rofl:

Good one.

The other howler:
"maybe the under 30's did this to us by not voting"

I really hope this was sarcasm.

1) The under 30s voted.
2) This commission was put together by the Prez. You know... the one all the young folk got out and voted for.

[No Elephants]

74. Younger voters did not turn out for the 2010 midterm, but, yes, Obama owns this

commission and he was their guy (and mine).

[jeff47]

127. By not voting in an election 2 years after this commission was created? (nt)

[Alcibiades]

175. Actually, the benefit cuts disproportionately hit young people

not current or near future retirees. And the youth vote in 2010 was the most progressive since exit polling began in 1972, and they voted at a rate similar to the youth vote in recent midterm elections.

At least as outrageous is that they cut the corporate tax rate.

[HereSince1628]

256. Actually I meant US, as in ALL of us.

But things have become so fucking us vs them that I understand how that wouldn't be apparent.

And I agree that these changes are likely to be implemented incrementally and the young, expecially the poor and working class young will need to reinvent retirement.

[Alcibiades]

284. Not what I meant, either

I had meant that, if they had understood their self interest, young people would have voted at a higher rate. The good news is that the ones who did vote voted more liberally than any generation of youth on record.

The cuts for near and current retirees would be much smaller, but they are more immediate, so I expect they will take more notice than the young of how they are being screwn. New voters simply don't turn out for midterm elections, and this past one was no exception. The good news is that they will stand up to be counted when the president's name is again at the top of the ticket.

The other thing that we ought to be mindful of is that these proposals are dead in the water. The chairs had to issue this report because the commission could not reach consensus. If they cannot do that, I see no way a lame duck Congress will pass this.

[bbgrunt]

42. ...but but but...the commission was set up by a dem!!!

[Hawkowl]

20. Obama's primary challenger

If Obama attempts to compromise this, he'll get a primary challenger so fast his head will spin.

[montanacowboy]

32. I am all behind a primary challenger

I am sick and tired of this shit -

[Lucky 13]

55. Ditto. But who?

[newfie11]

96. Grayson! N/T

[bitchkitty]

106. Oh HELL yeah! n/t

[whathehell]

60. + 100 n/t

[Lorien]

241. I hope that he gets one anyway

I can't take four more years of being served GOP bullshit and being told that it's chock full of "hope and change.'

[grahamhgreen]

269. Fiengold/Grayson - they need a Job!

[irislake]

25. Hmmmm

The people in some other countries wouldn't take this sitting down. Maybe they have crappy TV --- or something.

[No Elephants]

75. +1

[xchrom]

26. Recommend

[closeupready]

27. No fucking way!

:mad:

[ladywnch]

30. everyone .....bend over......here it comes--------anybody got any vasaline?

they'll gut all these programs to appease the rethugs/teabaggers and the rethugs will still refuse to end the Bush tax cuts.

[Hoyt]

31. Reports from actual draft on other Web sites don't look anywhere near as bad as some have feared.

I think we ought to read it before talking about 70% benefits cuts which ain't in the draft.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/CoChairDraft.pdf

[glinda]

35. lots and lots and lots of room for tons of abuse all over in this thing.

[Hoyt]

36. Lots and Lots of room to solve some problems too. There is nothing like "70% cuts" in the report.

This is complicated stuff that should have been addressed years ago. I think everyone should read the report. While I realize it's hard to trust some of these greedy SOBs, I think the draft report is a heck of a lot better than any of us had imagined. And, it hasn't even gotten to the point of the committee tweaking it and voting on final recommendations. So, it could actually get better. Yeah, I know, it could get worse too. But, it's not as bad as a lot of folks thought.

[lumpy]

47. Bad enough that the end result is to end social security as we

know it. If these sleaze balls want to put the burden on folks who have done their share by supporting this government you know damn well they'll have no conscience in further reducing benefits that are due us and have us rely on wall street for our benefits. It is as bad as we thought, contrary to your reasoning, and you know damn well it will get worse.

[Hoyt]

50. Have you read the actual report? Give me some examples of what is so bad.

Hell, they are even calling for increasing the cap on salary subject to SS tax.

[jeff47]

131. Ok, indexed to inflation instead of wages

Means that right now it's about the same. But in about 20 years, SS will be paying out MUCH, MUCH less.

Another example: turning SS into a means-tested program that provides more benefits to the poor is the first step in 'reforming' it away just like we 'reformed' welfare. "Those people" were just lazy and didn't work hard enough to save for their retirement.

Yet another: Limit government expenditures to 21% of GDP...because they apparently liked the number 21. There's no rhyme nor reason, and it's outside the commission's mandate.

[flamingdem]

52. Read it and see how this is not as scary as the catfood commission crowd believes nt

[No Elephants]

77. If your total income were somewhere between $600 and $1300 a month, what % decrease would you like?

[SammyWinstonJack]

107. +1.

[bitchkitty]

112. +1

[Hoyt]

116. Draft makes it pretty clear those folks won't get cuts, probably an increase. But watch the SOBs.

For example, among other things, the report says:

"Reduce elderly poverty by putting into place a new, effective special minimum benefit.

Add new protections for the most vulnerable:

- Add a new special minimum benefit to keep full-career minimum wage workers above the poverty threshold.

- Wage-index the minimum benefit to make sure it is effective both now and in the future.

- Provide a benefit boost to older retirees most at risk of outliving other retirement resources."
___________________


I'm taking that at face value and watching the Republicons closely, but that is not a bad starting point. Now, let's hear what that minimum is.

[jeff47]

128. You're being too clever by half

The examples you cite are making Social Security means-tested. Meaning the poor get more money. The easiest way to cut a program is to have it pay more to "those people".

Social Security became the bedrock it currently is because it is NOT means-tested. There's no way to demonize it like Welfare. This proposal is designed to make it much easier to 'reform' SS out of existence, similar to how we 'reformed' Welfare.

[LarryNM]

172. Means Testing Will Mean the Eventual Demise of Social Security

It will turn into a them vs us welfare program. The amount of paperwork required to "prove" that you are eligible will be overwhelmingly burdensome. All kinds of records on tax payments, insurance policies, bank statements, income, even burial plots, ad infinitum ad nauseam with constant "reviews". The policy changes, interpretations and lawsuits will be endless, as will the political nightmare. Red states or their reps will make sure that conditions for eligibility will be onerous. Don't believe it? Just ask anyone who has ever worked in or had to deal with or been a recipient/client/beneficiary/or whatever the term de jure of such programs.

[Paper Roses]

292. Like? None. The government owes us. We paid for S.S.

Try living on the figures you mentioned. It is next to impossible.

[lark]

153. You must be a major optimist

I see nothing in there good and a whole lotta bad. All the pain is felt by the very people that are hurting now and nothing to change that, only makes it worse. Nothing about rich people paying their share, nothing about government workers going under SS, don't believe a word about military reductions - NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! The only thing I like is eliminating the bizarre tax give aways to oil companies and I don't believe that for a minute either. There's no mention of 70% benefit cuts - but it does state 30% benefit cuts and that's not freaking acceptable! I worked all my life for that money and I expect to get every cent I PAID. This isn't a give-away, it's money I contributed and not voluntarily either.

[defendandprotect]

193. Social Security costs the government nothing ....has NOTHING to do with the debt ...!!!

If you want to cut the debt you need to cut the MIC --

and we can save 28% immediately on MIC by merging the services

which all other nations have done.

AGAIN -- SOCIAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO THE GOVERNMENT DEBT!!

In fact, Social Security in a scam was forced to raise surplusses -- $250 million a year

or more -- which have served as a SLUSH FUND for wars and tax cuts for the rich!!


Social Security is paid for by employees and employers thru FICA payments --

Government merely adminsitrates the program at .03% administrative costs.


Here's a bit on the billionaire Peter Peterson's $6 ad campaign against Social Security ....


It’s hard to get your head around how rich Peterson is, and how many rich people there are in this country. But here’s how to put their money in perspective, in relation to Social Security. If Congress decides to extend those tax cuts, for households making $250,000 or more (the top 2 percent of earners), the money the Treasury will lose would be enough to put Social Security in the black for 75 years--and raise benefits by 2 percent.


http://labornotes.org/blogs/2010/11/billionaire-launches-campaign-slash-social-security

[Hoyt]

222. Indirectly it does. It's part of citizens' income "available" for government programs.

Hope we aren't going to get into a semantics debate about government fund accounting, etc.

[defendandprotect]

239. Social Security is paid for NOT BY GOVERNMENT ... but by empoyees ...

and employers --

GOVERNMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FUNDING SOCIAL SECURITY --

Nor is it intended to be anything but a pay-as-you-go program --

it was scammed when it was forced to raise surplusses for "baby boomer" retirements.

Those surplusses were intended to be used and have been used as a SLUSH FUND for

wars, tax cuts for rich, etal.

Additionally, should the fund be part of the General Budget --

it's there with its surplusses to HIDE the outrageous costs of the MIC budget --

[SarahB]

37. Wow. Color me surprised.

:eyes:

[Honeycombe8]

203. LOL. nt

[LiberalArkie]

38. I like some of the tax rates..with almost no exemptions..

[harun]

58. I would like to see them kill the mortage interest deduction. It encourages

a culture of debt, we should be against that.

Note: This would financially be a big hit to me but would be worth it.

[No Elephants]

91. Yes but it also encourages home ownership, which is good for communities

We've had home mortages for a very long time and did not become a "culture of debt" until relatively recently, so I'm not sure your premise is right anyway,

[lark]

156. I actually like the no deductions for 2nd homes

and for homes over $500,000 - the only thing is it would have to be pegged to regional prices since in No. FL a house for that amount is a mansion and in CA it's a 4 bedroom 2200 sq. ft. house. Hey, they gave us a few sops, which of course would be eliminated by the Repugs.

[harun]

255. Deductions only for one home is the minimum they should. That is

a really good idea.

[lumpy]

39. I'd like to know why Alan Simpson ( retired republican) is on the

debt reducing panel? How the hell is he still involved in doing government dirty work?
The bastards are determined to shift the financial burden onto the shoulders of elderly and incapicitated. This should raise the ire of everyone over the age of 30.

[totodeinhere]

62. He is on the commission because President Obama wanted a bipartisan solution.

Especially after the results of the last election, the Democrats cannot go it alone on this issue. The only way to get it done is to have a bipartisan solution. We might not like it but that is a reality. A Democrat only solution will never pass Congress.

[lumpy]

66. I thought Obama would have better sense than to put someone

the ilk of Simpson on the panel. Guess Obama is out of touch with the political scene after all. He could have chosen a more moderate repub.

[No Elephants]

78. Why assume Obama wanted a more moderate Republican heading the cat food commission?

Do you really believe neither Obama nor any of the many many Democrats who have his ear, like, say Reid, Biden, Bubba, Daschle or Axelrod, has as much knowledge of Alan Simpson as the average DUer?

Sometimes, people hit exactly what they aimed at--even if they may want people to believe otherwise.

Better to have Simpson make draonian recommendations and then improve on them than get mild recommendations and follow them, or (heaven forfend) do even worse than recommended.

[Peregrine Took]

177. Surely you jest! n/t

[Alcibiades]

180. Just like on the TARP

and the bailouts. "Bipartisan solution" = Democrats taking all the heat, Republicans taking all the credit.

If Congress actually passes this, we will be in the minority for a generation.

[totodeinhere]

229. Yes, you got it. That is the plan. n/t

[fasttense]

40. Hay quick, buy up stock in cat food cause grandmothers every where

will be cooking it soon.

If President Obama supports this. I will never vote Democratic ever again

I've paid my entire life double Social Security taxes for my parents and my retirement and now the corporate government thinks they can use my money as a tool in their RepubliCON games. Forget about it.

[kestrel91316]

43. Cut the defense budget and corporate welfare FIRST. Raise taxes on

the wealthiest 5% FIRST.

[Lorien]

44. But not the Offens..."Defense" budget? Surprise! Surprise! nt

[hollowdweller]

170. Defense budget cuts mentioned in the report

Defense spending cuts:


Double the number of defense contractor positions scheduled for elimination from 10 percent of current staff augmentees to 20 percent.

Reduce procurement by 15 percent, or $20 billion.

Eliminate the V-22 Osprey program.
Halve the number of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters in favor of F-16s and F/A-18Es.

Cancel the Marine Corps F-35 program.

Cancel the Navy's Future Maritime Prepositioning Force.

Cancel the new Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV), the Ground Combat Vehicle, and the Joint Tactical Radio.

Reduce military forces in Europe and Asia by one-third.

Send all military children based in the U.S. to local schools.

Those seem fairly serious to me. Not sure the total though.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/11/deficit-commission-co-chairs-simpson-and-bowles-release-eye-popping-recommendations.php

[corpseratemedia]

46. I think if banks get a whiff that citizens en masse will stop paying their cc bills because of cuts

to their SS (even if they don't get it now..I MEAN ONE HAS TO START SAVING!) the dingbats pushing this chop off your own feet thing will get the message.

ya really can't have big-box capitalism without some socialism, it couldn't survive without it.

[Yeahyeah]

48. I guess Obama's going for that I'll be recognized as a great president in 50 years thing.

Like Bush.

[No Elephants]

84. 100 years. Some of us who are old enough to remember Bush (and this) for the rest of our lives

will still be alive in 50 years.

[lark]

157. Nah

He's just doing what he was bribed or threatened into doing. He's not stupid, but may be venal or scared?

[newportdadde]

59. Read through some of the draft I love this one "Shift to chained CPI for all indexed programs"

Chained CPI
! Shift to chained CPI for all indexed programs
! Current measures of inflation overestimate increases in
cost of living by failing to account for “substitution bias”
! Adopting a more accurate measure of inflation would
achieve savings government-wide

Lol... ow so that was the problem the CPI overstated inflation!

[jtuck004]

63. Near 30% of folks retired with NOTHING except Social Security before

the current financial screwing we have been given by Wall Street and those in power. Today it is very likely
near 40%.

REDUCE IT?

I won't support anyone who tried to reduce it by a damn cent.

I will vote against anyone that does anything to reduce it at all - even leave the party I have voted with for 38 years.

I will work against a vote for anyone that even remotely tries this, and I can be damn persuasive.

There is no compromise.

[Paper Roses]

108. I'm with you 100%. If this passes, I will have NO income and

no medical care. If I have no income, how will I pay my co-pay and balances for Medicare?

Is Uncle Sam planning to pay me back what I have paid in all my life? Sure!

End the damn wars, take care of those at home, young, old any citizen.

We are getting fed up with all this bull.

This old timer is ready to take to the streets.

[Dragonfli]

258. "I will work against a vote for anyone that even remotely tries this, and I can be damn persuasive"

I am right there with you as I suspect will be many others.

[Fearless]

65. The Fund Wars and Fuck the Elderly Act n/t

[No Elephants]

85. Disabled, too.

[Fearless]

105. Indeed.

[2critical]

67. Not a penny off SS/Medicare until the military budget is cut to 1/10 of what it is now

[indimuse]

68. This is WHERE I draw the line!!!

Keep your F*^*KING GREEDY HANDS OFF Social Security and Medicare!!

[hayu_lol]

71. It isn't just seniors that will take a hit...

it would be all families headed by a disabled worker or a surviving spouse who gets support $ for her/his children.

Additionally, along with what is being promoted will be a major cut in funds going to the various states for Medicaid.

Hope and change? Oh sure.

[aggiesal]

69. Obama already said some time ago that ...

He would not support any recommendation that cuts Social Security or Medicare.
We should hold him to it.

Besides, as I understand it, Social Security and Medicare don't add to the debt anyway.
They are paid for by our (The Tax Payer's) weekly deposits.

OBAMA’S PLAN
Commitment...Protect Social Security: Obama will preserve Social Security by stopping any efforts to privatize it and working in a bipartisan way to preserve it for future generations.
Source: Campaign booklet, “Blueprint for Change”, p. 16-19 Feb 2, 2008

OBAMA: We’re going to have to capture some revenue in order to stabilize the Social Security system. You can’t get something for nothing. And if we care about Social Security, which I do, and if we are firm in our commitment to make sure that it’s going to be there for the next generation, and not just for our generation, then we have an obligation to figure out how to stabilize the system.
Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008

[MannyGoldstein]

76. Recently he refused to rule out cuts

Only said he'd fight against privatization.

[No Elephants]

87. LOL. Like we held him to public option and no mandate for health insurance

[SammyWinstonJack]

109. He says lots of things. Oh, what to believe?

:puke:

[Autumn]

189. I don't trust him

he says one thing but it's always subject to "change".

[ProSense]

70. Reaction

here

[sabrina 1]

79. Democrats are in the majority until January.

These proposals SHOULD have been made BEFORE the election. They must be opposed, Democrats must refuse to touch SS.

Cutting SS will do nothing to lower the Deficit. They are lying.

So, what are we going to do about it? It's not as if we didn't know this is what that disastrous, Republican led Commission was planning. The fight over this should have taken place before the election which, had that been the case with Democrats fighting hard to eliminate SS from the discussion of the Deficit, would have won them the election.

Why didn't they do it?

[rhett o rick]

173. No Sabrina, the corporatists have the majority and we are screwed. nm

[soryang]

212. This whole thing is a scam for the political cowards

They don't care what the public thinks. It's greed incorporated running the show.

[radhika]

81. What if the Dems had done better last week?

I'm thinking these recommendations were totally tailored to the Cat-Food interpretation of the election results.

[Odin2005]

83. Those fucking Corporatist FUCKERS!!!

This BS is UNACCEPTABLE!

[newfie11]

88. Screw em all

I don't know who the hell to vote for next time.

[1American]

89. SS and Medicare cuts

Now we know who the DINOs are!

When Congress stops earmarks and pork barrel secret spending, I'll support some reduction in SS and Medicare payments, but not until then..and that's a maybe.

[FlyByNight]

90. Not only "no"...

but FUCK NO! Slash the Pentagon budget? I'll believe that when I see it.

Can't say I'm surprised by the predetermined conclusion.

Debt reduction commission to middle class: drop dead.

:mad:

[BadgerKid]

92. Lesson to learn here: Ask for the sky, instead of only for "safe" requests.

As we've seen in the last two years, the GOP still screws Dems over even after the bills the Dems put forth were "pre-negotiated."

The federal-level Democrats should take note of tactics here.

[tinrobot]

93. Take from the sick and elderly and let the rich keep their tax cuts.

How fucking heartless can you get?

[Atypical Liberal]

94. Hey, Congress, how about cutting MILITARY SPENDING????

We spend as much on military expenditures as the rest of the world combined.

[No Elephants]

95. On the brigh!t side, the draft recommends a "robust publi option."

I love their starting by saying American families have had to make hard choices over the last two years and they expect "us" to do the same.

ROFLMAOPIMP! American families will be just as screwed by these "hard choices" as they are by most choices our elected officials have made in the last 25 or 30 years.

Fuck them

[liberal N proud]

98. Anything they can to expedite the process of making America a 3rd world nation

:nuke:

[jgraz]

100. Anybody else buying futures in Purina stock?

[soryang]

211. Purina is owned by Nestle, a foreign corp

Our name brands are sold off to foreign corporations to help pay for our wars.

[Art_from_Ark]

226. I'm stocking up on Friskies myself

Especially the dry stuff

[RoccoR5955]

101. Why don't they just

Reduce the military budget by 50%
and
Tax those with income from any source, 90% after the first $1,000,000?

That way, the people who got us into this economic mess, would be paying WE THE PEOPLE back?

[dgibby]

104. Of note,

in a good faith gesture and to demonstrate just how serious this problem is, both Chairmen and all members of the Commission have pledged to take pay cuts, put a freeze on Congressional pay raises, and forgo Govt. health insurance.

:sarcasm:

[SammyWinstonJack]

110. HAHAHAHA!

:rofl:

[PinkFloyd]

111. What the hell does Obama have against SS?

Ever since he's been in office he's announced seniors wouldn't be getting cost of living raises because somehow we can't afford that. Yet we can afford HUGE tax cuts for the wealthiest 5%, tax cuts for companies who send jobs abroad and military bases in wealthy allied countries like Japan and Germany.


"reductions in income tax rates in exchange for curbing tax breaks"
That sounds like robbing Peter to save Paul.

[radhika]

139. It annoys the bankers and his rich pals....

same as: public option, real wall street reform, unemployment insurance, prosecuting the Bushies and environmental regulations.

[defendandprotect]

194. It's not about Obama ... it's about those who SPONSOR Obama .....

the elite/capitalists/corporatists --

Same deal as the Big Pharma and private Health Care Industry who sponsored him $$$

and wanted no negotiation on prices -- and no single-payer -- and look what they got!!

NONE OF THE ABOVE!!

[The Second Stone]

115. Any reduction in social security benefits is totally unacceptable

and I will oppose any Washington politician who does not actively oppose any and all cuts in benefits. I hope that President Obama understands that this is a third rail.

[DailyGrind51]

118. This is DOA!

[DimplesinMI]

120. "Here we go again"......

:wtf: :crazy: :hangover: :argh:

[mzmolly]

121. I'd rather tax the wealthy.

Sorry.

[MichiganVote]

140. Got that right. But of course, that would mean we don't worship them.

[CountAllVotes]

122. K&R

:dem: :kick:

[KeyserSoze87]

123. Ugh, this is so frustrating...

When are people going to learn that to lower the deficit, we need to RAISE TAXES FOR THE RICH AND CUT DEFENSE SPENDING?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Autumn]

They know that very well

RAISE TAXES FOR THE RICH AND CUT DEFENSE SPENDING? Fuck no they aren't going to do that. They can squeeze every drop from the poor and middle class but those two are their sacred cows. Face it. We are fucked.

[KeyserSoze87]

199. The only way the economy will fully recover...

is if we fire Turtleface, Bonehead, and all the Teatards. They're fucking assholes. All of them. They all must go. NOW.

[lanlady]

126. DC area economy will collapse

--if Obama implements their recommendation to eliminate 200,000 federal civilian jobs, 20% of military workforce, and 250,000 non-federal contractors.

[laughingliberal]

149. Yeah, but there's so many of *them* who live there.

:sarcasm:

Republicans would love it.

[ProudDad]

129. Let's see, you setup a panel of corporate capitalist pols

to determine how to "fix the deficit"...

And you get more pain for the majority...

A laughingly tiny "100 billion in Illustrative Defense Cuts"... (that's about 7% of the total war expenditures)...

Gee, quel suprise...

[Javaman]

133. so let me get this straight...

Obama's idea of compromise it only using repuke ideas.

Lovely.

we. are. fucked.

[DesertFlower]

134. they raided the social security fund for

years. they stole our money and now we should have cuts. i say FTS. pay back all the money you took out of the fund all these years.

[lanlady]

141. Obama needs to distance himself from this, and quickly

Remember the Iraq Commission Report that Bush threw in the trash before the ink was dry? Obama should follow suit or he'll end up associated with this proposed assault on retirees and ordinary Americans.

[kiranon]

155. Agree. Needs to start over on this or Democrats will be out of office

for a very long time while Republicans laugh at Obama's having ruined his own party by trying to compromise with the non compromisers. The Republicans play the game so much better.

[grahamhgreen]

159. Not a chance. I'm sure he already has a slick plan on how to sell this.

[donco6]

186. He picked 'em. He had to have known what they'd come up with.

I'm sure he's not at all surprised, though he'll probably claim to be.

[still_one]

142. Fuck you Durbin, a plan doesn't start off by cutting programs that have been the foundation of the

Democratic party since FDR

[Politicub]

147. My blood boils when I read stuff like this

It all comes down to hurting the many people who need these programs to live to give multi millionaires a huge tax cut.

It makes me sick. Literally.

Anyone who supports cuts in social security and medicare in order to cut taxes are monsters or breathtakingly ignorant, or both.

On edit: Cut the fucking defense budget. Why is that never an option? Most Americans are completely devoid of courage and scared of their own shadow.

[laughingliberal]

148. "Senator Dick Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, said the plan is only a starting point. "

Yeah, Dick. That's the scary part.

Strange melody from the past in my head

"They've only just begun..." (to screw workers and the poor to the wall)

[madrchsod]

150. so what`s the boner going to do know?

he`s going to have to defend the programs......

[Creative]

154. This is a bipartisan plan, but it will never see the light of day.

Too much pain...

Too much reality...

[ProudDad]

272. Almost NO reality

The reality is that it's the "Permanent War Economy(tm)" including the phony "War on Drugs(tm)" along with the USAmerican pathology of Calvinism that's destroying the Earth.

These idiots are a REAL "Death Panel", condemning the least powerful to at best meaner lives at worst death in order to "save a few pennies on the bottom line" -- which will be spent elsewhere making the rich richer...

The reality is that we must END THE WAR MACHINE!

We must get the hell out of the "nation building" business and cut the war budget by over 90%...

We must tell the Chinese, et al to pound sand and abrogate on the "debt"...

We must END THE WAR ON NATURE!

We must end the pollution of our Earth, water, air -- all of the web of life that sustains life that we're killing for short-term profit...

We must relocalize all economic activity -- local, steady state economies fulfilling human needs, NOT "global capitalism"...

We must power-down, become part of nature again and live sustainably on this finite planet...

Otherwise, just like these idiots, we'll just be pissing into a hurricane...

www.transitionus.org -- NOW!

[Creative]

280. I agree with you on one thing (END THE WAR MACHINE!)

That is a large slice of the pie. But, some of those other slices look pretty big too.

[ProudDad]

287. Except for give aways to the health industrial complex

Social Security and Medicare shouldn't be in that circle -- they're pay as you go (or should be)...

Tarp ain't no more...

That leaves the biggest of the rest, the REAL BIGGIE -- the wars (and interest on past wars)...

There's also a LOT of pork in "other discretionary" like subsidies to the polluters and corporate agriculture, road and highways (the detritus of the ending petroleum age that will have to be torn up soon anyway), etc.

By just returning to the Carter Income and Corporate tax rates, eliminating subsidies for the rich and their tax loopholes, quit subsidizing corporate death, institute Improved and Enhanced Medicare for All to stop the Medical Care costs increases and slash the war budget by about 80% (which would still leave USAmerica with the biggest fucking war machine on Earth) would do it...

Then use the surplus thus generated for a reasonable debt payment plan (if the Chinese don't like it, tell them to pound sand), seed money for local credit union operations in every city and town to replace the banksters -- to build relocalized steady state economies, build high-speed and low speed rail links between rational terminus points and livable, sustainable communities around those points, finance a return to organic family farms instead of petro-franken-food factories. Smaller, clustered, low cost, solar powered housing for all...

Tear down the MacMansions after their owners get tired of paying the HUGE premiums on their utility bills for wasting energy and leave them to rot...

All forms of birth-control and family planning INFORMATION on demand...(we HAVE TO allow the population to decrease to a sustainable level -- about 2 billion individuals)...

Rebuild the food chain -- or, better, allow it to rebuild itself by removing our pressures against it...

Or are we against preserving Mother Earth as a viable habitat?

[Creative]

289. Social Security would have been okay, if...(big word)

politicians had not spent it to buy power for themselves. As you are aware (or should be aware) the only thing in the SS box is a few IOUs. Surprisingly, you asserted that Medicare is "pay as you go," when nothing could be further from the truth. As it is, Medicare and Medicaid are doomed. Medicare alone is $13.4 trillion in the hole and a $1.5 trillion more will be added this year.

The US's GDP is around $14 trillion. Thus, you could take everything from everybody, apply it to Medicare, and it still would not be solvent.

You suggested that the world's population should be cut from 6.7 billion to 2 billion (roughly 70%). That % would cut the US population to around 92 million. Now, that would definitely lessen the burden, but something tells me that you will have a hard time killing off 215 million US citizens.

[grahamhgreen]

158. It's official: Obama is working against our best interests.

[defendandprotect]

195. And that began immediately AFTER the election when he eloped into WH with DLC/Rahm + Wall ST!!

[harvey007]

162. It's time to kick ass and take names

:grr:

[somone]

163. It's got his name on it:

Obama deficit commission details savings plan
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-11-11-spending11_ST_N.htm

[Liberalynn]

166. The President might as well just admit he is a Rethug

I really hope there will be a primary challenger or he decides not to run again.

[DimplesinMI]

169. Sorry folks, just finished watching K.O. and I am MAD, REAL MAD...

The President decides to take a 10 day trip overseas. On that trip overseas, he notes that partnering with India (who have taken Millions of American jobs) with create 50K (Drop in the FREAKING bucket) jobs. The next day (or two days later, give or take), that same President's commission on the debt says that cutting Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare and having college students pay interest in college; are the BEST WAYS possible to cut the debt.

IS THIS PRESIDENT ON DRUGS?

Really, WTF is the gosh damn issue here? Has he lost his FREAKING MIND? He is looking out of touch and WEAK! This is from one of his stronger supporters, by the way. But, when you appoint leaders to commission that is speaking of cutting the middle class, as we know it....I am sorry but maybe it is time for a change and, the CHANGE is YOU.

I cannot continue to support this President on things like this. I would describe myself as a moderate-liberal Democrat. Maybe it is time that we cut our loses now and start thinking about a primary challenge for Obama.

I NEVER BELIEVE THAT I WOULD BE TYPING OR SAYING THESE THINGS EVER....but if your own appointed commission, come out with CRAP like this and your staff finds out, an hour before and you, THE FREAKING PRESIDENT did not quickly issue a statement, calling this "plan" a total failure FIRST....

YOU ARE WEAK, YOU ARE NOT VERY SMART AND YOU MUST WANT TO BE A ONE TERMED PRESIDENT.

:puke: :mad: :eyes: :think: :crazy: :wtf: :argh: :hangover: :hurts: :spank: :wow: :beer: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown:

[defendandprotect]

197. Social Security has NOTHING to do with the debt ... SS costs government nothing ....

FICA payments which support Social Security are paid for by employees

and employers -- and the program is simply administrated by the government

at a cost of .03%.


NEVER HEARD OLBERMAN SAY THAT TONIGHT -- EVERYONE HAS TO START SAYING THAT

CAUSE THAT'S THE HEART OF THE RIGHT WING BS ON THIS....

[defendandprotect]

176. As someone from another country is asking about the new warmaking on Iran.... will progressives

in America ever begin to rise up against this?

[Billsmile]

181. Import Tariffs

Bring them back. You'll create American jobs AND pay off the debt at the same time.

Stealing what we've already paid double for, Social Security, is STEALING. Remove the cap & make the rich pay their fair share & double Social Security pay outs (especially since the 401K scam virtually eliminated retirements).

[defendandprotect]

200. Exactly and many more ways to reduce debt ... but SS costs government NOTHING ...

Social Security does not add to the debt -- nor subtract from it --

Social security is paid for by employees and employers -- and is merely

administered by the government at .03% administrative costs.


Social Security is a pay-as-you-go system never intended to run a surplus --

Right wing forced SS into creating a surplus under the "baby boomer" scam --

For decades now SS has run huge surplusses which have served as a SLUSH FUND

for wars, tax cuts for rich, etal.

Social Security has nothing to do with the general budget -- but has been

added to the budget to balance out the monstrous costs of our MIC!!


Another way to save an immediate 28% on our MIC is to MERGE the services --

that's what other nations have done.

Also note this re billionaire Peter Peterson's new $6 million campaign to destroy SS --

It’s hard to get your head around how rich Peterson is, and how many rich people there are in this country. But here’s how to put their money in perspective, in relation to Social Security. If Congress decides to extend those tax cuts, for households making $250,000 or more (the top 2 percent of earners), the money the Treasury will lose would be enough to put Social Security in the black for 75 years--and raise benefits by 2 percent.


http://labornotes.org/blogs/2010/11/billionaire-launches-campaign-slash-social-security

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

238. It was a scam to move burden of FICA onto shoulders of poor and middle class...

while creating a SLUSH FUND for elites -- and that's what it was used for over and again!

The only way private pensions can be ripped off is also if government looks the

other way!

[abelenkpe]

183. Also mortgage interest deductions and child deductions gone

But interestingly tax cuts for corporations if I understand the proposal correctly from the several articles read.

I like how rich old men are deciding the cuts.

[8 track mind]

184. something to think about......

Is there a possibility that Obama will use this to not extend the bush tax cuts? Seems to me that ANYONE who endorsed this would be committing political suicide. One could easily say to the repukes, "in order to get this deficit spending under control (that you had such a huge boner for) we have to cut SS and Medicare. Are you prepared to tell your constituents this revelation or can we work on the bush tax cuts?"

Just thinkin'

[donco6]

188. BTW, it's sure taking a long time for the talking points to arrive, no?

They must REALLY have to be working on this one. I'm seeing lots and lots of bluelinks.

[unkachuck]

190. "...Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, said the plan is only a starting point."

....this horseshit recommendation isn't a good 'starting point' because there is no 'starting point' if it means Social Security or Medicare cuts....you fucks are walking on thin ice....

....go steal gates and buffetts money first, then come see us about ours....

[Maat]

191. And I'm sure that those who mocked me when I predicted this ...

are about to apologize to me.;-)

[Greyhound]

196. Being conservative means never being sorry, no matter how bad you fuck up. n/t

[KillCapitalism]

192. Outcome of 2008 election would have been the same no matter what.

I'm really starting to think that McCain MIGHT have been a little further left than Obama.

Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and John Boehner constantly dog Obama for being too far left when in reality he's probably to the right of all of those three.

[and-justice-for-all]

198. What?!! NO MILITARY CUTS!!!!??

Fuck'em all!! Bastards.

[defendandprotect]

201. Social Security costs the government nothing ... doesn't add to debt ....

We could save an immediate 28% by MERGING our military services as

most other nations have done!!


PS: Social Security is paid for by FICA payments which are paid by employees

and employers and government merely administrates the program at .03%.

In fact, the "baby boomer" scam forced Social Security into running surplusses --

now $250 million a year and more for decades -- used as a SLUSH FUND for wars,

tax cuts for rich, eetal.



It’s hard to get your head around how rich Peterson is, and how many rich people there are in this country. But here’s how to put their money in perspective, in relation to Social Security. If Congress decides to extend those tax cuts, for households making $250,000 or more (the top 2 percent of earners), the money the Treasury will lose would be enough to put Social Security in the black for 75 years--and raise benefits by 2 percent.

http://labornotes.org/blogs/2010/11/billionaire-launches-campaign-slash-social-security




:)

[Initech]

228. Seriously!!! This is outrageous!!!

[Canuckistanian]

204. No deal.

No tax reductions for those earning $200,000 or more.

Those tax break eliminations DO sound like a good idea.

And fix SS? By all means. By ending the cap.

There's some "compromise" for ya.

[snappyturtle]

207. Without reading anything yet, I say, bs. No cuts to ss or medicare.

Let's instead cut the military and pentagon budgets!

[sam sarrha]

208. the top 1% richest Americans hold 42% of the Nations Financial wealth.. the bottom 80% has 7%

So the top 20% holds 93% of financial wealth and the bottom 80% has 7% of nations financial wealth and 73% of debt... what are we an F'n Banana Republic..? why doesn't this come up when the ReThugs crybaby about wealth redistribution


http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html:argh:

[countrydad58]

213. The President is ready to capitulate

to run a $4 trillion addition to the budget to give the elites tax cuts, while gutting the New Deal! I have come to have a burning hatred for this fucking phony! I don't give a fuck who likes it either! Its life & death to me who is trying to survive on SS Disability!

[earth mom]

214. Fuck the cat food commission! Simple as that!

:grr:

[tabasco]

217. I've paid into SS since I was 16 years old.

36 goddamn years.

I hope people enjoyed the benefits. I probably won't get shit.

[eridani]

223. Things you can do--forward widely

Please send a message to Credo Action at [e-mail] and ask them to consider making opposition to the Deficit Reduction Commission one of their December causes. Their phone bills reach nearly a million people with an offer of free minutes for activist calls.

Join national organizations

Hands Off Our Medicare! http://www.handsoffourmedicare.org/handsoff//
Social Security Works http://socialsecurity-works.org/
Strengthen Social Security http://strengthensocialsecurity.org/

Join Washington State organizations

Social Security Works-WA http://ssworkswa.org/
Health Care for All-WA www.healthcareforallwa.org
Toll Free: 1 [phone]
Don’t Cut Our Medicare- http://dontcutourmedicare.org/
United for Single Payer www.unitedforsinglepayer.org

Online connections—contact frequently!

Tell the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform that they should not cut Social Security or Medicare [e-mail].

Democratic National Committee issues page
http://my.democrats.org/page/s/contactissues

White House contact- http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/ --202-456-1111

Representatives--ask House members to elect Pelosi, who is more likely to defend Social Security and Medicare than Hoyer or Shuler

Senator Patty Murray
[phone]
http://murray.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=ContactMe

Senator Maria Cantwell
[phone]
http://cantwell.senate.gov/contact/

Rep. Adam Smith
[phone]
http://adamsmith.house.gov/Contact/

Rep. Jim McDermott
[phone]
https://forms.house.gov/mcdermott/webforms/contact.shtml

Rep. Norm Dicks
[phone]
http://www.house.gov/dicks/newemail.shtml

Rep. Jay Inslee
[phone]
http://www.house.gov/inslee/html/contact_jay.shtml

Rep. Brian Baird
[phone]
https://forms.house.gov/baird/webforms/issue_subscribe.htm

Rep. Rick Larsen
[phone]
https://larsen.house.gov/contact/email-me.shtml

Rep. Dave Reichert
[phone]
http://reichert.house.gov/Contact/ZipAuth.htm

Rep. Cathy McMorris-Rodgers
[phone]
http://mcmorris.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=82§iontree=482

Rep. Doc Hastings
[phone]
https://hastings.house.gov/Contact/default.aspx

Speaker Nancy Pelosi
[phone]
http://www.speaker.gov/contact/comment_email

Majority Leader Harry Reid
[phone]
http://reid.senate.gov/contact/

Talk show hosts--ask them to cover the issue

Randi Rhodes (AM 1090 6-9pm)
[e-mail]
1-866-87-RANDI (actual live broadcast is 12-3pm Pacific time)

Thom Hartmann
c/o KPOJ Radio
4949 SW Macadam Ave
Portland, OR 97239.
[e-mail]
COMMENT LINE
Call the Thom Hartmann Comment and Rant Line at 202 536-5306 to leave a recorded message – agree, disagree, sound off – it’s all welcome. Keep it shorter than 30 seconds, and know that it may be used on the air.
Toll-free US number to call into the show: 1-866-987-THOM (8466)

The Ed Schultz Show
417 38th St SW Suite F
Fargo, ND 58103-2312
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail] —during the show

Keith Olberman
[e-mail]

Stephanie Miller (AM 1090 6-9am)
[e-mail]
1-800-STEPH12

Rachel Maddow
[e-mail]

Norman Goldman (AM 1090 3-6pm)
1-888-321-6001
Send an e-mail to Norman during the show:
[e-mail]
The Norman Goldman Show
11054 Ventura Blvd
Box 370
Studio City, CA 91604-3546

Mike Malloy (AM 1090 9pm-12am)
[e-mail]
1-877-962-5569

Amy Goodman
1-212-431-9090
http://www.democracynow.org/get_involved/contact
Democracy Now!
207 W 25th St, Floor 11
New York, NY 10001

[Initech]

230. And yet no one is saying a god damn thing about the insane military budget.

[alp227]

233. how about cutting defense spending, bailouts, and other pork?

like abstinence-only education, faith-based initiatives, why oh why do the conservatives say that social programs have to go first when it comes to austerity?

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

235. If the Democrats go along with this, they are dead to me

I'm serious.

[quakerboy]

236. Why is this anything?

Its like announcing that Roberts has given an opinion on a case before the SCOTUS. Before the court has ruled.

Its stupid. We all knew what the misbegotten loonies that somehow ended up leading this commission wanted to reccomend. Lets wait for the commission to make its recommendations.

[lovuian]

237. If they cut social security and Medicare ...and we still are at war

America and its people are doomed
social programs were put into place do to the Depression

its because people were starving dying and living in tent cities


Socialism will return
marx is correct and Capitalism is a doomed model of economics

[AtheistCrusader]

242. I'll accept it. Do it.

If you cut 5% off the defense budget for every 1% you cut off SS I'll support it.
I'll come to washington and yell and wave signs in favor of it, if you do that AND require the DOD to pay back every penny that was borrowed against SS for wars.

[JDPriestly]

247. I've just been reading an old French text published in 1965 on the French Revolution

Some of the most important sparks that set off that Revolution were too much money spent on wars (including support for our Revolutionary War), a famine apparently due in part to a climate change, oppressive taxes imposed on the poor and most important, the refusal of the rich to pay a fair burden of taxes. This all happened in a France in which the feudal system that was appropriate in a society in which the primary wealth and work was agricultural to a society that was the verge of becoming capitalistic and thus, an economy based on trades, small businesses and increasing independent workmen.

This plan sounds like "Let them eat cake."

Sounds like there no or next-to-no cuts to military expenditures will be proposed.

[Enthusiast]

248. This is already being

characterized as "Obama's social security cuts." And any cuts will be blamed on the Democrats. Sounds like a plan.

[BlueJac]

261. I've been lied to my entire life.........

promised this, promised that, paid for this and paid for that! Now with a Democrat as president they are dreaming up this shit! What a bag of shit and I voted for this clown!!!


Being in your sixties is supposed to be relaxing........not being bent over every time I turn around.

[durkermaker]

262. Gotta pay for wall street bailouts/bonusses and stimulus for jobs that go to foreign workers somehow

and now you know how they're going to do it

all of it one giant theft from YOU

[bluerum]

263. No way in hell.

[yurbud]

264. if other members of the commission don't support it, how can the chairmen claim it is their finding?

don't they vote on commissions?

[sarcasmo]

266. Stop spending money on Military might and War that will solve you're budget, ASSHATS.

[grahamhgreen]

270. Does anyone here support this position. If not, is Obama one of us?

[CRH]

271. Crowds find it easier to shout than think, ...

Much ado about nothing. It will never gather the 14 votes, and Social Security is not funded by the government and has no impact on the deficit. The latter are republican talking points often repeated, but not true.

Everyone ready to divorce the party and fire the president, no problem, but use any of the many other legitimate reasons for doing so.

[ProudDad]

273. My message to the "cat food commission"

(Although, cat food's pretty damn expensive -- we'll have to learn how to graze if we want to survive on S.S.)

The reality is that it's the "Permanent War Economy(tm)" including the phony "War on Drugs(tm)" along with the USAmerican pathology of Calvinism that's destroying the Earth.

These idiots are a REAL "Death Panel", condemning the least powerful to at best meaner lives at worst death in order to "save a few pennies on the bottom line" -- which will be spent elsewhere making the rich richer...

The reality is that we must END THE WAR MACHINES!

We must end the military war machines...

We must get the hell out of the "nation building" business and cut the war budget by over 90%...

End the phony "war on drugs(tm)"...

We must end the "war on the non-rich(tm)"...

End the massive inequality...150% marginal tax rate on those who make over $1 million per year!...

We must tell the Chinese, et al to pound sand and abrogate on the "debt" incurred to make the rich richer and the rest of us dependent "consuming units"...


We must END THE WAR ON NATURE!

We must end the pollution of our Earth, water, air -- all of the web of life that sustains life that we're killing for short-term profit...

We must relocalize all economic activity -- local, steady state economies fulfilling human needs, NOT "global capitalism"...

We must power-down, become part of nature again and live sustainably on this finite planet...

Otherwise, just like these idiots, we'll just be pissing into a hurricane...

www.transitionus.org -- NOW!

[laughingliberal]

277. +1000 nt

[defendandprotect]

278. SS has nothing to do with the debt....Medicare for all would have SAVED government $$$ .....

and created 2.3 million jobs --

[Zhade]

283. FUCKING TOLD YOU SO.

Where are you now, you cheerleaders who insulted those of us who were right ONCE AGAIN? If only you'd listen beforehand for once.

I'm disgusted with how unsurprising all this is.

[sarcasmo]

290. Cut you're Wars,

[RainDog]

291. K&R n/t