Feds probe salaries at bankrupt megachurch

[Turborama]

Source: MSNBC

GARDEN GROVE, Calif. — A federal bankruptcy official has questioned the salaries of three employees of the bankrupt Crystal Cathedral megachurch.

The Orange County Register reported Wednesday that the U.S. trustee filed objections in bankruptcy court questioning the need for a $132,019 housing allowance for CFO Fred Southard.

"There is no justification whatsoever for a housing allowance of this amount," the U.S. trustee stated. "Mr. Southard has failed to explain why such a housing allowance is necessary or appropriate, given this Debtor is in Chapter 11 and suffering financial difficulties."

Southard has been employed in the role since 1978, the paper said. He earns $12,000 a year, in addition to the housing allowance. The trustee also questioned the need for a $70,000 salary for founding pastor Robert H. Schuller's daughter Gretchen Schuller Penner, who produces the church's "Hour of Power," and the $55,000 salary of her daughter Neyva Penner Klaassen, who works on the TV show.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40248871/ns/us_news-faith/

---

The Crystal Cathedral filed for Chapter 11
bankruptcy protection Oct. 18, citing debts
of more than $43 million.

[Hubert Flottz]

1. Stagecraft costs some big bucks!

[SkyDaddy7]

2. I am absolutely no fan of religion and especially...

CHURCHES...But those salaries, especially the pastor's salary who has been there since 1978 seem to be really low compared to salaries I know of other pastors...And the salaries I am talking about are from many years ago. A church nothing like this mega church at the time was paying a pastor $128,000 plus a house & a car...A nice house & a Lincoln Town Car.


Does anyone else know more about the average salaries of pastors? Seriously, what about folks like Rick Warren or the Joel Olsteen? I know they have books but I doubt their salaries are less than $70,000!!

Regardless I do not think they should be paid at all for doing what they claim is the creator or the universes work! LOL!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

4. I concur...they seem low

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Except that none of the people mentioned are 'pastors'

Fred Southard is the CFO. Cheif Financial Officer. Not a minister. Both the women are also not pastors, but media workers and daughters of a pastor.
So you are comparing apples to accountants. The pigs Warren and Olsteen are by no means 'average' and their incomes are primary from authorship, not from the church.
Also, you say salaries, and these are not salaries, but housing allowances. Tax trick. Fred was being paid about 150k a year, with most of it as 'housing allowance'. So, not a pastor, not a salary, and both of those things actually matter to the conversation.

[pattmarty]

12. And you forgot another important thing, no fucking income taxes or real estate taxes.......

.....it is a fucking scam, plain and simple. There are a very few people of "faith" out there that really try to do good things, but for the most part they are phonies and frauds.

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. *sigh* Sorry, not true. Very untrue as a matter of fact!

We clergy do indeed pay taxes on our income. We also pay property tax on our homes.

The phonies and the frauds are the exceptions that make the rest of us look bad. Most of us do genuinely want to help the people we serve. Anyone entering the clergy to get rich is in for a big fucking surprise.

[pattmarty]

28. You are being VERY disingenuous with that statement. The actual........

......"churches" and their property do not have to pay taxes. YOU, as an employee (same as any other employee) has to pay income and real estate taxes.

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. Excuse me, but you were the one addressing individuals rather than organizations.

I did not say churches were exempt, I specifically talked about individuals as does the article. My statements about clergy and their income and property being taxable tax stand.

Perhaps you needed to make it more clear when you were busy disparaging members of the clergy.

[SkyDaddy7]

25. I did misread about the pastor's daughter...

But still these expenses are common place i guess this is being highlighted due to the fact the church is bankrupt.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pacifist Patriot]

17. The average salaries of pastors?

Well I'm not sure I'm inclined to consider either Rick Warren or Joel Olsteen a pastor. That would imply training and experience in pastoral care and counseling. These men are preachers and writers. World of difference.

Clergy salaries vary widely and are affected by such things as denomination and local cost of living differences.

I think it would probably be fair to say that most clergy would fall within the range of about $30,000 - $100,000 annual compensation depending upon whether you are including housing allowances, benefits (if they get them), etc. I earn just under $20,000 per year as a part-time pastor and I do not receive a housing allowance or any benefits. I was recently offered a full-time appointment that would have resulted in full-package compensation of around perhaps $90,000 per year including benefits.

Honestly, as clergy, the salaries listed in this article didn't even raise my eyebrow.

Regular clergy do not make nearly what people seem to assume they do. Consider the average salary of professional athletes and actors. The vast majority make nowhere near what the superstars do.

[uncle ray]

24. 90 grand isn't exactly the brink of poverty.

but who am i to say anything, if the parishioners hand it over willingly.

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. Please remember that this reflects a full compensation package including benefits.

Most people don't include that when talking about salary. That's also at the upper end of the scale as you can see.

[pattmarty]

27. Well just like sports and movies, the "clergy" does have its superstars........

.......so I guess it is an apt analogy.

[Pacifist Patriot]

33. It really is.

Televangelists = millions of dollars

A lot of clergy, like myself, have to hold down part-time jobs just to make ends meet. I also do accounting work in the morning for a camera company to put food on my family's table. But this also enables me to provide volunteer pastoral care to inmates and a hospice program.

[pattmarty]

34. I was being sarcastic, guess I shoulda used

:sarcasm:

[Pacifist Patriot]

35. Well in your attempt to be sarcastic you hit upon the truth.

There are great disparities in income in clergy and acting and athletics. A handful make millions, most don't. Just the way it is.

[melm00se]

3. The housing allowance

is in a different tax category as salary.

(this may not be 100% correct using the right verbiage and comes from a guy I worked with who, in addition to his "regular" job was also part of the "business" end of a local chruch - he took car of the salaries, AR/AP, investments and the like.)

He told me that pastors are odd when it comes to taxes. 1st off they are both regular employees and 1099 contractors. They can be (or not, it's been several years since we had this talk) exempted from FICA/Medicare taxes but the church is not. So while the pastor doesn't have to pay his "half" of the SS/Medicare tax, the Church does but only on the salaried portion of the pastor's compensation.

Pastors also are considered 1099 independent contractors if they receive a housing allowance. Again, the pastor can opt out of SS so they can also dodge paying their FICA/Medicare taxes on their housing allowance.

so putting the bulk of their compensation onto the 1099 side of the ledger, the pastor can (and in many cases does) avoid paying 15% or so taxes on the housing allowance that a self employed person normally would pay.

Randy said that it is a tax dodge, especially for churches that play fast and loose with the rules, and many pastors willingly and happily play that game.

His church was extremely careful and scrupulously honest when it came to that. His church only paid a legitimate housing allowance amount (which was easy - they had owned the house that the pastor lived in for something like 75 years so they had really good baseline when it came to it's "true" value). This really helps when they get audited (which happens every 4 or 5 years) and they have the historical data to back up the income vs housing allowance split and avoids the accusation that they are somehow assisting the pastor in sheltering a good portion of their income from tax liability.

His congregation is so adamant on this score that in the past they had withdrawn offers to prospective pastors who request that the bulk of their compensation be in the form of "housing allowances". Doing that immediately raises a significant flag, at least in their minds, indicating that perhaps this pastor wasn't exactly the moral leader for which they were looking.

[Pacifist Patriot]

20. It does get tricky, but I've never seen the ability to opt out of SS/Medicare.

I don't claim a housing allowance, although I could, so I can't really address that. I'd like to see actual figures back up the (and in many cases does) comment.

People seem so gleefully eager to assume the worst about pastors while not recognizing that this is often not a 40 hour a week job. It can be 24x7 365 days a year for very meager pay. It should also be noted that the house is also an office, meeting space, counseling space, etc.

[melm00se]

29. they can

http://www.crown.org/library/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=690

they can opt out based upon conscientious objection to government welfare

[mwb970]

5. Corruption in God's house? Oh noes!

Sounds like this outfit is morally bankrupt as well.

[jerseyjack]

6. I don't understand how the 1099 helps the pastor.

When I get 1099's I get billed for the payroll tax and the income tax. Don't the pastor recepients of 1099 also have to pay both when they file their quarterly returns? The church may gain but not the pastor.

Bulking the payment into housing allowances is another matter.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. In terms of how it relates to the OP,

none of the people being investigated are ministers, they are not pastors, and there are a few tax ruels special to ministers. Those rules do not apply to other occupations within a church. Mr Housing Allowance in this story is not a minister.

[Kolesar]

8. The gold plate on the palace gates comes from the teeth of pensioners

--Elvis Costello

[pattmarty]

10. I'll tell ya what, fucking religion sure does pay well!

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. No, really it doesn't.

That's like looking at Brad Pitt and saying, "I'll tell ya what, fucking acting sure does pay well!" Tell that to the kids breaking their backs to audition for a bit part at scale. Average income for clergy is nothing close to what these televangelists pull in. And for long hours and ceaseless dedication to the people they serve. Sure there are bad apples in any profession, but I'm getting sick and tired of clergy being painted with such a large brush.

[pattmarty]

23. You are speaking ONLY for yourself. The Catholic church of which.......

..........I am familiar is a den of weirdos. From a Brother, Nun or a "Priest" it is a fucking corrupt and lying cesspool. You got your "opinion" and I got mine.

[Pacifist Patriot]

32. I'm actually sorry you've had such a dismal experience.

The vast majority of clergy give of themselves far more than they get back in remuneration.

It's interesting timing that this should be posted the afternoon I had chaplaincy at the County Jail. I may not agree with the theology of the Christian clergy who participate, but I do value their volunteerism and their sincere desire to help people the rest of society would prefer to shove into a dark hole somewhere and forget about.

Clergy do a hell of a lot more than preach a sermon on Sunday and preside at a wedding and a funeral now and then. Most of us really are out there trying to make the world a better place.

[tomm2thumbs]

13. getting rich in bankruptcy - where else but in a Church in America?

oh yea, and on Wall Street

same diff actually - one just has fancier jewelry and furs

[jberryhill]

16. The Lord Will Provide, Amen /nt

[happygoluckytoyou]

14. time to pack up the babies and grab the old ladies.... and RUN FOR THE HILLS

[formercia]

15. Just another racket.

Has been, ever since some humanoids figured out how to make an easy living off the working class.

[Pacifist Patriot]

19. I am no fan of the Crystal Cathedral, but these salaries don't look particularly...

alarming. Especially in California.

[panzerfaust]

21. God Helps Those

Who Help Themselves

[sakabatou]

26. ... to the collection plate?

No, wait, that's not it...