$11,000 fine, arrest possible for some who refuse airport scans and pat downs

[woo me with science]

Source: SunSentinel.com

$11,000 fine, arrest possible for some who refuse airport scans and pat downs

By John Lantigua Palm Beach Post
8:59 a.m. EST, November 20, 2010

If you don't want to pass through an airport scanner that allows security agents to see an image of your naked body or to undergo the alternative, a thorough manual search, you may have to find another way to travel this holiday season.

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is warning that any would-be commercial airline passenger who enters an airport checkpoint and then refuses to undergo the method of inspection designated by TSA will not be allowed to fly and also will not be permitted to simply leave the airport.

That person will have to remain on the premises to be questioned by the TSA and possibly by local law enforcement. Anyone refusing faces fines up to $11,000 and possible arrest.

"Once a person submits to the screening process, they can not just decide to leave that process," says Sari Koshetz, regional TSA spokesperson, based in Miami.

Koshetz said such passengers would be questioned "until it is determined that they don't pose a threat" to the public...


Read more: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/sfl-airport-scans-pat-downs-refual-20101121,0,5604032.story

---

More at link.

[hlthe2b]

1. Constituionally, I think this is where they have really stepped in it...

First using the scanners and highly invasive physical inspections as as FIRST LINE screen, rather than only used among those who have failed some preliminary screen (e.g., acting strangely, something unusual in baggage, travel destination or origin, etc.), they are violating the 4th amendment. However, to the extent it is voluntary, there might be some defense of the policy. However, to now state they would be subject to more than $10k in fines for refusing and not allowing an opt-out to simply leave and not fly-- I believe has penned them into a totally unconstitutional position. I look forward to hearing what the constitutional lawyers have to say about this, like Turly, Dean, and others.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

16. Lewrockwell.com? Really?

Uff da! When did sites operated by neocons like Lew Rockwell become reasonable sources for Democratic Underground? I'm really confused, here. Lew Rockwell? Really? On DU?

[Renew Deal]

22. I've seen it before.

I didn't post the deleted link, but DU is where I first heard of that site. :shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

63. he is an old school paleocon not a neocon. I am sure he

loathes neocons.

[Bo]

25. WE DONT NEED THIS FASCIST GROOVE THANG!

"(we Don`t Need This) Fascist Groove Thang"



(we Don`t Need This) Fascist Groove Thang lyrics(Everybody move to prove the groove)
Have you heard it on the news
About this fascist groove thang
Evil men with racist views
Spreading all across the land
Don't just sit there on your ass
Unlock that funky chaindance
Brothers, sisters shoot your best
We don't need this fascist groove thang
Chorus:
Brothers, sisters, we don't need this fascist groove thang
History will repeat itself
Crisis point we're near the hour
Counterforce will do no good
Hot you as* I feel your power
Hitler proves that funky stuff
Is not for you and me girl
Europe's an unhappy land
They've had their fascist groove thang
Chorus
Democrats are out of power
Across that great wide ocean
Reagan's president elect
Fascist god in motion
Generals tell him what to do
Stop your good time dancing
Train their guns on me and you
Fascist thang advancing
Chorus
Sisters, brothers lend a hand
Increase our population
Grab that groove thang by the throat
And throw it in the ocean
You're real tonight you move my soul
Let's cruise out of the dance war
Come out your house and dance your dance
Shake that fascist groove thang
(Shake it!)

[bigworld]

55. DU is the last place I'd thought I'd see Heaven 17 lyrics :)

[StarsInHerHair]

33. too bad all those prosecuters were purged for not being loyal

Bushies & that W's lackeys have been burrowed into those places. I've heard one constitutional lawyer's comments on it already & it doesn't look good.

[Bonobo]

37. I agree completely.

As I said before, they simply do not have the right to detain people.

This is not going to go in their favor.

[james0tucson]

39. In some states, it is an arrest

Depending on where the airport is located, it's an arrest when you are not free to walk away. Depending on whether they are considered law enforcement agents, it may not be "arrest" but rather "assault."

[lovuian]

48. I think they know the protest is coming and this is to scare

people to comply...soon we are not going to be given the opt out

[Speck Tater]

2. Behave yourself. Comply. Do whatever they say. Resistance is futile.

We are all peons. We have no voice. We have no power. Just shut up and get over it.

[katnapped]

8. Bend over and open wide

Won't hurt a bit, trust me!

[Ruperto31]

58. That will be the next step--for "selected passengers."

Then people will submit more readily for the regular groping and/or porno-cancer machines. Remember the teevee commericial for the soft drink that showed instant compliance once the TSA guy snapped his latex gloves?

[dipsydoodle]

4. If its not technically possible for them to levy that fine

then they are demanding money with menaces which I'd assume would make the TSA officers subject to arrest. That's how it would be in the UK.

[Jumping John]

5. They hate us for our freedoms!!!!! LOL

[KansDem]

13. That is PURE GENIUS!!!! How could we have been so wrong about George W!!!!

He said the terrorists hate us for our freedoms. So, what to do?

TAKE AWAY OUR FREEDOMS!!!!!

See? No freedoms, no hate!

We can all live in peace and harmony, just as soon as we have our breasts and genitals groped...

[woo me with science]

15. Somewhere some actual terrorists are laughing their asses off over this. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

21. I sometimes think...

the entire world is laughing at us.

[saigon68]

38. Amazing what 19 Religious nut jobs can do

And several Chimpanzees

"Bring Em On" Shouted THE AWOL CHIMPANZEE

[pipoman]

51. Seems to me this outrage

has nothing to do with Bush at all...nothing. THIS IS BEING DONE BY A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT. It would be nice to blame everything on Bush...too bad it is wishful thinking.

[saigon68]

54. I said SEVERAL CHIMPANZEES

I didn't post a picture of the SECOND ONE

[defendandprotect]

6. It might take passengers to stop flying for a while to bring this stupidity to a halt...!!

[SoapBox]

7. Outrageous.

What was that saying?

Government by the people...For the people.

Doesn't seem like it.

Mr. TSA guy needs to be fired.

[cognoscere]

24. It was something along the lines of, "...government of the people, by the people,

for the people." For decades I've been aware that it really is government of the people, by the rich, for the rich.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

49. And the Rich dont fly commercial and arent subjected to this bullshit!

[louis-t]

9. Tyranny.

Plain and simple.

[saigon68]

52. Fascist Control of the Masses

[OrwellwasRight]

10. Why does the TSA hate America?

This is so fucked up.

[KansDem]

14. It's in their acronym...

TSA = "Tough Shit, America!"

[blackspade]

11. This is an absolute lie:

"In March, the TSA introduced AIT scanners -- also known as "nude body" or "whole body' scanners -- and now uses them in more than 60 airports, including South Florida airports: Six each at Palm Beach International and Miami International and 10 at Hollywood- Fort Lauderdale.

The machines project a black and white image of a passenger's naked body to a screen in a separate, private room where it is studied by a TSA agent.

No face is visible and the agent never sees the person being scanned."

One of my coworkers just this week went through one of these scanners in OK City and said that she could see the image from the scanner! It was being viewed by a male TSA agent in a public area to boot. The only saving grace for her was that the scanner was malfunctioning with a flickering image so they waved her on through. So much for "screening".

This is nothing more than a way for companies to make money from the public treasury and fear.
The fact that libritarians are one the front end of this, with Ron Paul speaking publicly against it, rather than Democratic Polititians, especially from the administration is troubling.
Unfortunately, many of the comments on these news sites are saddling Obama with this, and they will be right unless he puts the hammer down on DHS about this.

Oh and this little gem:
"A recent CBS poll found that 81 percent of people questioned did not object to the AIT system. But some do and an online group called National Opt-Out Day is encouraging passengers to refuse the AIT screening on Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving, which would force TSA to perform many more manual searches and probably cause long delays."

Well if they don't actually know what it does how would they object?

[james0tucson]

40. 81%?

Far fewer than 20% of Americans take as many as one round-trip flight per year.
Poll them *after* the probe.

[blackspade]

47. Agree!

Poll after the scan and grope.

[sally cat]

12. Arrest Possible? Reading that it sounds like arrest is certain.

[thelordofhell]

17. So when is Boehner gonna pay his $11,000?

:shrug:

[woo me with science]

18. Where on earth is the administration on this?

Joe Biden comes out to defend it? Other Democrats describe it as "love pats"? Seriously?!

This is a LITERAL assault on Americans, and they don't see it?

If they have no regard for the human dignity of the people they represent, they should at last be aware of the political damage this is causing and will continue to cause.

What on earth are they thinking? The administration needs to act now to FIX this.

[Baclava]

20. Just think how pissed you'd be about this if the Repubs were running the government.

"Fascist Police State" would be the headlines all across the country.

[woo me with science]

44. I'm pissed now. nt

[redirish28]

30. Here is your answer:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4623005



:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[StarsInHerHair]

34. they are the other side, you can see it now?

THAT is why they're saying those things.

[Lucky 13]

35. Our President says it's frustrating but necessary. Feel better now?

[saigon68]

43. They are beholden to the War Mongers

[ronnie624]

19. "Once cleared by the TSA and deputies, the people will be allowed to leave"

I wonder what circumstances would bring about arrest and an $11,000 fine. The article isn't clear about that.

[avaistheone1]

26. Asking questions or asserting your rights

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/nov/15/tsa-probe-scan-resistor/

[ronnie624]

46. Thanks for the link. n/t

[Sonoman]

23. I have refused the scan.

I also refuse to remove my jewelry.

The pat-down doesn't really bother me, and they don't do it every time I refuse to be scanned.

But I also fly Bidness and 1st Class and that might make a difference.

Sonoman

[trud]

27. Sonoman

I think you haven't flown very recently, like in the last few weeks. Things have changed.

[Sonoman]

28. Just last week.

SFO-DFW

SFO - no problem.

DFW - pat-down.

I wear more metal than most guys (image, you know) and they never give me any trouble when I decline their request to remove same. I know the drill backwards and forward. They don't want to be doing that crap any just as much as we don't want it done.

Sadly, I believe my Exec-Plat status has a lot to do with it.

Sonoman

[redirish28]

29. Here we go the Threat of Possible Arrest Want to make a bet by the end of

the Thanksgiving Holiday we will see at least one arrest. Just to show they mean business.

[Lucky 13]

36. Undoubtedly. I'd put money on it.

[EFerrari]

50. What we need is a bunch of people who are willing to be arrested

to show we mean business and get this sh!t into the courts.

[lib2DaBone]

31. The terrorists have won.. via the STUPIDITY in Washington....

[saigon68]

42. Every CROTCH GROPED one less vote for Obama

[StarsInHerHair]

32. SO LIKE THOSE $40,000 FINES IF U WENT TO THE BEACH

nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

56. which the media blithely ignored.

I think we should contact every father and mother who supports the TSA and ask them if they enjoy watching their kids be groped.

[Poll_Blind]

41. Doesn't this imply that the moment you walk through a checkpoint you're in custody?

Really, if this is the case you are essentially being detained. Without having been read your Miranda rights, for instance. You are, in effect, under arrest until the TSA lets you go. This is a much bigger deal to me than the physical intrusiveness of the searches themselves.

Looking over the article, if accurate, there are a whole host of very strange conclusions the TSA appears to be making about the control they have over a U.S. citizen once that citizen walks through the checkpoint.

It may not seem obvious but such vagaries almost certainly will be the cause of ACLU-style lawsuits to at least help define the law, if not reject the behavior altogether.

PB

[Johnny Harpo]

45. So...Once At The Scan/Pat Down Location....

we automatically become criminals?

[BeyondGeography]

53. Does Obama want to be known as the Peekaboo President?

This is starting to overwhelm everything. Fucking nightmare.

[Blandocyte]

57. The terrorists have achieved the goal of impacting our freedom

Stuff like this is very much in line with what Alan Dershowitz wrote in his book, Why Terrorism Works.

[sarcasmo]

59. Kick back to the top. Save our 4th amendment rights.

[goforit]

60. OMG!!! This is un-phucking-believable!!!

[The abyss]

61. NOTE: to all travelers this US holiday week (thanksgiving)

The TSA does NOT have arrest or detention powers. Their personnel and organization must rely on civilian law enforcement in all local jurisdictions. The goons running the security checkpoints have zero authority. They are NOT law enforcement.

The TSA can - and will - attempt to bullshit the public into believing they have some sort of authority.

The TSA org draws power under civil statutes NOT criminal statutes. They can NOT arrest nor detain anyone! Their power is akin to the issuing of a summons for a littering violation.

TSA employees are NOT certified state or federal law enforcement!

That thug feeling up your teenager this week is NOT trained by a state or federal law enforcement academy. If the local jurisdiction is not playing the game then there will simply be no game - no summons - no ticket.

There will be, and already are, local LEO jurisdictions willing to play "the game".
http://theintelhub.com/2010/11/22/law-enforcement-to-arrest-citizens-who-opt-out-of-body-scanners-and-intrusive-pat-downs/

[LisaL]

62. Yes, TSA can't arrest anyone but they will just call police to do it for them.

[The abyss]

64. And that only works when local law enforcement is willing....

Some, as I noted in my comment, are already on line for the call.

Willing to put their job on the line for a civil disobedience ticket.

Praying the district attorney doesn't bounce them off a sidewalk.

Wondering how many people are recording everything that is happening.

Praying to whatever gods that the person they take into custody doesn't counter file sexual assault against the primary (TSA goof-ball) witness. Because that is all the TSA worker is - a witness. They are not trained observers, they are not trained LEO. Their request for an arrest will be subject in court.

[Matariki]

65. BoingBoing linked to updated TSA rules - no fine for refusing pat down.

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/22/tsa-clarifies-policy-for-pat-down-refusal-in-time-for-thanksgiving/

[woo me with science]

66. That it was threatened at all should WAKE PEOPLE UP

These tyrants need to be slapped down now, and hard.

[TheWatcher]

67. When did Soviet Russia Invade and Take Control of everything?

You would have thought CNN would have reported this back in the 80's.

I mean, sooner or later we were bound to have figured it out, it just would have been nice to have some official notice, that's all.