Pope says condoms sometimes permissible to stop AIDS

[struggle4progress]

Source: Reuters

By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY | Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:09pm EST

(Reuters) - The use of condoms to stop the spread of AIDS may be justified in certain cases, Pope Benedict says in a new book that could herald the start of sea change in the Vatican's attitude to condoms.

In excerpts published in the Vatican newspaper on Saturday ahead of the book's publication next week, the pope cites the example of the use of condoms by prostitutes as "a first step toward moralization" even though condoms are "not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection."

While some Roman Catholic leaders have spoken in the past about the limited use of condoms in specific cases to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS as a lesser of two evils, this is the first time the pope has mentioned the possibility himself in public.

The Vatican newspaper unexpectedly published significant excerpts from the book on Saturday night, days before extracts were initially due to be made public ...

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AJ1CC20101120

[Zoeisright]

1. Eye roil.

Like the world should listen to a ex-Nazi celibate old man.

[qazplm]

2. well hundreds of millions already do

so you can ignore that reality and eye roll or you can say, I hope he gets the Catholic Church to the point where condoms are permissible particularly since such a large portion of their membership is in Central/South America and Africa, two places where the scourge of AIDS is huge.

[Zoeisright]

7. I don't give a flying f**k what the Pope says about anything.

And the fact that anybody takes him seriously is sick. If he was REALLY saintly, he'd give his billions to the poor and do something worthwhile, rather than judge everybody else.

[kanrok]

9. Obviously you do care about what he has to say

Otherwise you wouldn't bother to post in this thread.

Just sayin'.

[saigon68]

36. Only for his priests who continue sodomy

Of young mens rectums

[Demstud]

65. We SHOULDN'T care what the Pope's opinion is.

But knowing that millions do take him seriously makes it important to know what he's saying, unfortunately. Maybe that's a better way of putting it ;-)

[sarcasmo]

37. I second you're statement.

[struggle4progress]

11. Can you document that he was ever a Nazi?

The Nazis made Hitler Youth membership mandatory at some point in his childhood; it was a mechanism for steering people into the Nazi Party at adulthood, but one was not automatically enrolled in the Party -- some application was needed. The man says he didn't like the Hitler Youth meeting and eventually found a sympathetic official who would cover his nonattendance. Towards the end of the war, he was assigned to some army post, which he apparently deserted, never having seen combat. He was about 18 when WWII ended

I don't much care whether you like him or not: you could at least try to be accurate

[Skittles]

47. correct

it's as inaccurate as Beck's garbage regarding George Soros

[RZM]

16. Bullshit

Ratzinger was not a Nazi. He was a German who grew up during the Nazi period and hit adolescence during the Second World War, when Hitler Youth membership and military service were mandatory. His family, like many devout Catholics, did not think very highly of Nazism since they felt it conflicted with their Christian faith. Just because he did not have 'the good fortune of late birth,' as the late extreme-right Austrian Jorg Haider once put it, does not give you the right to call him that.

I'm neither a Catholic nor a Christian and I have a whole slew of problems with the papacy, one being that it's taken until 2010 for the Pope to say this. If you do too, that's fine. But don't level that type of accusation unless you can back it up.

[greiner3]

18. Hitler grew up as a Catholic;

And called upon Pope Pius XII. Ratzinger was a Catholic. He was part of the Nazi machine, willingly or not as you state, but I have not read where he has denounced his participation.

Saying his "Hitler Youth membership and military service" was not being a Nazi just is blind to the world and facts. I do not know if he regretted it then or now. Only he knows. Maybe he wants his god to know also but that is for another post.

[RZM]

23. That's a difficult argument to make

Saying somebody is/was 'a Nazi' implies personal endorsement of the central tenets of Nazism (though I'm sure that wasn't always the case, as plenty of people joined for social/career reasons). For a German of Ratzinger's age group, being a member of the Hitler Youth and serving in the Wehrmacht does not necessarily imply anything at all about personal views - all it really says is that he was following the law. To disobey the law in Nazi Germany could carry grave consequences for the offender. During the war, desertion could even carry consequences for the offender's family members.

As an Austrian, Hitler was born into Catholicism and as the leader of a country with a large Catholic population, he also had dealings with the Pope. But you probably also know that Hitler was quite hostile to Christianity for a variety of reasons. I think that he probably would have liked to go much further in repressing Christianity, but he didn't feel it was a safe move, since many Germans were believers. Not a whole lot of Germans stood up to Hitler in public, but Catholic clergy were a partial exception and a few actually issued harsh condemnations of the T4 program from the pulpit.

I don't know enough about Ratzinger to characterize his views on his association with the Nazi regime. I do know that his family, particularly his father, was not keen on Nazism for religious reasons, so I assume that his views at the time and since were somewhat similar. As another poster pointed out, he wasn't very enthusiastic about the Hitler Youth and deserted his post at the end of the war. If he has never apologized or denounced his participation, perhaps it's because he doesn't feel he has to apologize for being born in Germany in 1927, which is all his Hitler Youth and military affiliations really say about him.

[boppers]

44. "Hitler was quite hostile to Christianity"

It's complicated. Very complicated.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians
(Christian Nazis)

And:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany
(There was lots of agreement with some faiths, but also a lot of friction with others)

[RZM]

45. Oh I know it was complicated

But there were a few basic aspects of Christianity that he really did not like. One obvious one was that Christianity had emerged out of Judaism. Another big one was that 'turn the other cheek' and 'love thy neighbor/enemy' were fundamentally at odds with his worldview, which was centered on racial conflict. In his world, turning the other cheek can get you killed, since your racial enemies are always out to get you. Also, he resented the loyalty that people had to their faith and would prefer they dedicate themselves fully to fulfilling Germany's destiny rather than wasting their time on something that wasn't exclusively German and sapped energy from what he saw as much more important tasks.

I know there are other views out there on all of this, but this is how some respected scholars have explained it to me. I'll admit though, I'm not as up on this literature as I could be. I'm sure there's literally dozens of good works in English dedicated to Christianity and the Nazis.

[and-justice-for-all]

46. It is not that complicated....

Wikipedia? really.. :eyes:

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/09/list_of_hitler_quotes_in_honor.php

Hitler was quite religious and superstitous and also believed in the occult.



There was no obvious display of Hitler being anti-religious, he was a practiing Catholic after all. Now, the one thing we cannot prove nor disprove, is if he was in fact just using religion as an instrument. But all the evidence auggest he was not hostile to christiandom

[boppers]

48. "There was no obvious display of Hitler being anti-religious"

"By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

Wow, you managed to get both of those statements in one post....

With no hint of the gob-smacking levels of irony involved.

Consider this: He hated at least one religion so much he was willing to destroy over 6 million followers of that religion, and their descendants.

I think you have a valid point, in that Hitler, and Nazism, picked and chose different religions (and non-theism, and atheism, and agnosticism) to support and oppress, so he wasn't (and the Nazi party wasn't) outright opposed to all forms of religious belief.

However, murdering people who followed several religious faiths (Judaism, Jehovah's Witnesses), merely because of their faith, seems pretty "anti-religious" to me, at least on one level.

edit: Missing Word

[and-justice-for-all]

66. Hitler was not Atheististic...nt

[Joe Chi Minh]

70. Very. And particularly to Catholics.

[panzerfaust]

49. As best I know the Catholic Church only excommunicated one NAZI

- and that was a low-level officer who was excommunicated for marrying a Protestant.

Mass murder - well, that was still apparently OK with The Holy Mother Church. Also, expect that it did not hurt that, through the entirely of the war, the NAZI regime ensured that the German churches kept sending money to Rome.

One might remember too that, until Mussolini (the first fascist dictator) recognized the Vatican as a sovereign territory, the Pope(s) had considered themselves "Prisoners in the Vatican" after the creation of Italy as a unified nation in the late 1800s.

In 1929 Mussolini signed the Lateran Accords which not only established Vatican City as a sovereign state (with Papa as head of state), but mandated Roman Catholicism as the State Religion of Italy (which, though mostly Catholic, had no State Religion until then), and further gave to the Church a handsome monetary settlement (around 100 million USD I believe - real money in those days) in return for the loss of the Papal Lands (which was why the Popes had been pouty) during the unification of Italy.

In return the Pope gave Mussolini the support of The Holy Mother Church.

You might also want to read as much of Hitler's writings/transcribed speeches as you can stomach. He repeatedly makes the claim that his goal is to complete the work of Jesus: The destruction of the Jews.

You may also want to read about "Hitler's Cardinal" ...


There is a lot of history in the past, and it is not all as we would like it to be.

[and-justice-for-all]

67. Thank You, Spot on correct..nt

[jonnyblitz]

19. yup, I just googled and learned on Dec 1,1936 Hitler made

Hitler Youth mandatory for all non-jewish boys when they reached 10 years of age. Parents received heavy prison sentences if they didn't allow their child/children to participate.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-prelude.htm

[Ian David]

17. SUPPOSEDLY celibate old man. n/t

[msanthrope]

30. you should read what the Italian press has to say about Ratzi and his 'secretary' Bel Giorgio. n/t

[TheFarseer]

3. so if you're nailing a prostitute, you shold wear a condom?

I would not have expected the Pope to be "pro-nailing prostitutes"!

[Crunchy Frog]

41. Nailing the prostitute is okay. It's using the condom that will get you sent to Hell.

[Bjorn Against]

4. Only "sometimes" of course, he still wants to make people ashamed for using them

Sorry but the Pope is a sick individual who has spent the past years telling those trying to deal with the AIDS crisis that they were immoral for using condoms. For him to now say it is only "sometimes" OK for them to use condoms is not much of an improvement, the pope was wrong and no one should listen to him on any issues related to sexuality. He is misogynistic, homophobic and completely wrongheaded on just about everything. He is also the scariest looking man on the face of the Earth.



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lZoQPvGfdG8/S6r9FfjOT7I/AAAAAAAACh4/-Ht0QTjH4sQ/s400/Creepy+Pope.jpg

[Phlem]

10. I always thought he was

evil creepy looking but those pictures make my skin crawl.

:rofl:


-p

[awoke_in_2003]

12. I knew he was evil...

when he first became famous due to the release of the original Star Wars trilogy :)

[StarsInHerHair]

35. his is the face of evil, surely everyone can see it in his face?

I mean holy shit-he's evil!

[SourFlower]

5. Sooo, by that way of thinking, there are circumstances under

which its "permissible" to infect someone with AIDS?! The moral gymnastics coming out of the church are incredible.

[AlphaCentauri]

6. Seems to me that the Pope is adopting Obama's gradualism

Nothing change just words

[Ready4Change]

8. As long as they have a hole to let sperm through.

I mean, first things first, ya know?

[alp227]

13. It's too bad the scientific community beat him already. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

14. Hey Ratzy...

STFU you ex-Nazi youth.

[laughingliberal]

15. Okay, we are talking about a Church that took 600 years to absolve Galileo. This is huge for them.

n/m

[bonzono]

24. Da Infallible pope didn't ABSOLVE Galileo

Da pope didn't ABSOLVE Galileo.
And the Infallible One didn't apologize to
Galileo neither. All he did twas grudgingly mumble that there twas a mutual misunderstanding. So Galileo is still wicked and excommunicated down in Hell or Purgatory,
whichever is hotter.
No Heaven for you, Gal!

[laughingliberal]

27. Yeah, he did. And it was really just under 400 years. :)

Finally, in 1992, three years after Galileo Galilei's namesake spacecraft had been launched on its way to Jupiter, the Vatican formally and publicly cleared Galileo of any wrongdoing.

(info from NASA and the History Channel) (portrait by Justus Sustermans painted in 1636)

http://4thefirsttime.blogspot.com/2007/09/1992-catholic-church-apologizes-to.html

ROME, Oct. 31 — Moving formally to rectify a wrong, Pope John Paul II acknowledged in a speech today that the Roman Catholic Church had erred in condemning Galileo 359 years ago for asserting that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/01/world/vatican-science-panel-told-by-pope-galileo-was-right.html

[av8rdave]

29. Also a church that looked the other way for years as their most vulnerable were being abused

And when public knowledge of it became so great that even the church leaders could no longer deny it, what was their chief concern? The disposition of the offenders. Who cares about the young lives they shattered? They only began to address that when public pressure became strong enough.

They can never repair the damage they have done, but they sure as hell should have been trying all these years!

And now they might OK some condom usage? Praise the pope! I've never seen an outfit so obsessed with the intimate lives of others.

[Kolesar]

32. Yes, I agree

This IS a good message.

[ehrnst]

20. AIDS affects men more than women.

When they say it is permissible for a woman to choose when or if she will bear a child I will believe they are making progress.

Until then I will have my doubts as to whether they believe in the right to life of born persons.

[BlueIris]

34. Um, how's that?

Although I'm almost scared to read why you think it affects men "more" than women.

http://www.avert.org/women-hiv-aids.htm

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2004/pr_unaids/en/

[Roon]

68. An interesting tidbit

I hung out in an hiv chat room a few years back and most of the chatters were poz heterosexual women that got it from drugs or their bi-sexual husband. There were one or two token males there but that was about it.

[KansDem]

21. Did his boy-raping priests use them?

Just curious...

Roman Catholic Priests sexually abuse altar boys

Tales of altar boys sexually attacked in the church sacristy where the priest dons the sacred vestments of his holy office, praying as his young server helps secure the rope belt around the priest's waist.

Sordid stories of rapes and fondlings in the rectory, on field trips, in the darkened seats of a movie theater, while ostensibly adjusting an altar boy's red or black cassock…

Dropping a Bomb

"It's like someone dropped a bomb in my lap," said one anonymous former knight of the altar, speaking out at last about his 1985 ordeal to the Philadelphia Daily News.

As a 12-year-old altar boy he was summoned to the rectory prior to serving mass. There he was ordered into the bedroom of a visiting priest who told him to take off his clothes and lay on the bed.

--more--

[rug]

22. That would be a sea change.

It has implications for circumstances in which the RCC may consider abortion to be a moral choice.

I don't see how this can be reconciled with earlier pronouncements.

[CatholicEdHead]

28. Yes and No

I wonder what the complete definition of "male prostitute" is. Odds are in high Vatican Circles it probably overlaps with their definition of "homosexual" which I hear from those in that circle is almost a synonym for pedophile (yes, there is a twisted thought process at that level, based on my time at the Catholic Answers forum).

I expect to see most of the ultra traditionalists spending the next couple of weeks trying to minimize it as much as possible.

[anAustralianobserver]

25. A first step toward moralisation of the Pope! My Catholic dad is the same age as the Pope

and I know what it's like to live under such fear, pride and foolishness.

[GreenTea]

26. I grew up Catholic with the sometimes silly & bizarre Pope "interpretations" ......

Pope Benedict endorses condom use — for male prostitutes only

"Pope Benedict said that condoms are not a moral solution. But he said in some cases, such as for male prostitutes, they could be justified "in the intention of reducing the risk of infection."
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/pope-benedict-endorses-condom-stem-tide-hiv/

Always strange & bizarre changes and interpretations in the Catholic church, even for me as a child, did "god" actually spend time debating whether I must eat a tuna fish sandwich on Friday's?

Personally, I see the Catholic religion as being so political, more simply - all about producing more more Catholics throughout the world no matter how poor or what the consequences might be.....

Now, a gay male prostitute certainly in practice, will never never procreate, in so much as they would obviously never produce more Catholics - So it's a safe bet for the big cheese to tell us god says condoms for them are now indeed okay....

Religion is an incredible political, profitable & social tool used and demanded that the sheep follow by an extremely wealthy unbelievably rich Catholic "church" (ALL churches)!

Yes, and the Catholic church truly does good humanitarian work throughout the world (that they pick and choose for reasons only they can tell you) and for the better - But then, how else would the church continue to grow and gain trust if they didn't....

We don't even want to get even into the sexual scandals that has always followed the Catholic church. The Pope of course said the right thing concerning condoms for male prostitutes....But how many more decades will it take for god to answer the Pope condoms for a over populated, diseased filled world of the poor and unwanted children who are innocently used in the Catholic churches out-dated thinking that has caused so much main and suffering for centuries all for political & monetary gain....

But then, that's man isn't it?

Producing guilt & fear through organized religion meant only to capitalize & control people, sustain power and proselytize with that word, "faith" (just believe my intentions to be honorable and of god and no questions asked)! All for riches and power of this world for a few. - I do not believe in any organized religion only in ones self and their relationship to god if they choose that direction and faith is right for them and them only. Proselytizing is controlling, evil ans always leads to forms of organize religion - and that SUCKS!

[polichick]

31. I can't imagine caring what the head of an organization with institutionalized pedophilia...

...says about anything. imo catholicism is the biggest con ever!

[MountainLaurel]

33. But only by prostitutes?

Mmm, kay.

[Guilded Lilly]

38. As Green Tea posted in the message above:MALE prostitutes

"Pope: condoms can be justified in some cases
2 hours ago - AP

Pope Benedict XVI says in a new book that condoms can be justified for male prostitutes seeking to stop the spread of HIV, a stunning comment for a church criticized for its opposition to condoms.…"

I saw this blurb from AP while watching some daily news videos and wanted to see what DUers were saying about this. From reading the article posted by Green Sea (#26)there is another version other than the Reuters originally noted by the OP that backs up what I read.

Apparently the Pope stated condoms are OK to avoid AIDS but only for MALE prostitutes as they cannot procreate. So preventing AIDS in men is an important statement. But not women....or their children.

But of course. How typically hateful and disrespectful towards women by a Church whose Priests are often found to practice pedophilia with no impunity.

[Crunchy Frog]

39. So you mean if you're innocently engaging in prostitution

that use of a condom is not going to put you into a state of mortal sin?

[Phlem]

40. Was it

"the greatest evil is religion" or something close to that.

I've been close and suffered from this hypocrisy my whole life.

It's time realize one's communion with god is as individual as the self. Fuck the cookbook and stop reading from the script.

Cause this is what he wanted? Seriously?

Religion is a business!

Figure it out!

-p

[Johnny Harpo]

42. Really Ahead Of The Curve On This One...Not

[lovuian]

43. Well thanks you for permission

finally after like 15 years

[alp227]

50. Pope Benedict edges away from total ban on use of condoms

Source: The Guardian

The Vatican today rushed out a "clarification" of the pope's remarks on the use of condoms, reported in a book to be published this week, insisting he had "not reformed or changed the church's teaching".

But the statement made clear that Pope Benedict XVI was prepared to consider the use of condoms in certain, limited circumstances.

The statement, and the pope's interview, suggested that, notwithstanding the interpretation of remarks he made last year on his visit to Africa, Benedict accepted that condoms reduced the risk of infection from Aids.

His spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi, said the pontiff's view was that "Aids cannot be solved only by the distribution of condoms".

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/21/pope-benedict-edges-away-ban-condoms

[CreekDog]

51. Without condoms, all you have is edging

:hide:

[TK421]

53. Edging is actually pretty cool...if you're by yourself n/t

[pangaia]

52. Who cares..

what this sick old man thinks or says...blah blah b;ah.. I'm concerned with the Batavia Muckdogs next year...

[TK421]

54. HEY AMERICA....these ass-hats in funny-hats want to tell you how you have sex

and think that using a birth control method is against their beliefs of a Big Guy in the Sky!

When are you people going to stand up to this motherfucker in the funny hat, huh?

These beliefs are so fucking ridiculous most people laugh at them or ignore them, yet this fucking dipshit in a pointy hat gets airtime on how people should behave sexually....

You fucking morons.....WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!

[Joe Chi Minh]

55. Apparently, the question is not as straight-forward as it seems, as this post

to Guardian Comments indicates:

@JeffoY

"If he now accepts that condoms can prevent the spread of Aids...

But they dont, thats the weirdest thing about all this. He was right (by a fluke) to say that faithful marriages and abstinence is the best way to prevent the spread of AIDS. Science is on his side on this.

Because HIV is so infectious, even with a condom, the increase in sexual activity associated with encouraging condom use outweighs the benefits, and in areas where AIDS is prevalent, the places with the highest condom use have the worst infection rates, because of all the sexual activity that comes with it. It's not coincidence.


Edward C. Green at Harvard did alot of research and publicity on this if you want to look it up."

[TK421]

57. The Catholic Church wants people of their faith to fuck n/t

[Joe Chi Minh]

60. That's surely true, if somewhat baldly articulated.

[TK421]

61. I've know about this for quite some time....it's kind of a weird mindset with them

Having been brought up Catholic ( though not practicing now ) it always seems like the normal thing to go out, find a girl, fuck her, have lots of kids etc, eat fish on friday during Lent, give up this, give up that, just give up your vagina girls!!! And boys...don't masturbate!!!! It's a sin!

If its one thing this planet needs...its more people!!!


LIKE THIS!!!!!


edited to add: apologizes for my articulation, if crude, but to the point all the same...the issue at hand doesn't call for civility in my opinion...we are far past that point

[Joe Chi Minh]

69. The numbers of the people are not the problem. Secularism is. As a former

lapsed Catholic, though, I understand the anger of people who haven't come out the other end, i.e. from their disillusionment and loss of hope.

As regards this Pope, I think he's a spiritual giant. It was obvious when you saw him on TV here in the UK at the various places he visited, that his life is one of continuous sacrifice.

[TK421]

71. It is a single-minded theology that should be buried outright, if not for its ignorance

of human rights issues...I'm tired of these worn-out old men dictating to others how they should live their lives, and you know they are completely against gay rights and women being ministers in their beloved church...they need to be stamped out just like we would want to stamp out a disease. Find the cure, apply it, and wait for the effect to take hold...that is how you handle it, but this is a disease of the mind and people have been affected by it for hundreds of years so yeah, it will take time but something needs to be done about it, and quickly I might add

Growing up Catholic, I have always had questions that I was too scared to ask the nuns, teachers, or priests at my school because they always gave off such an authoritarian aura and knowing my Mom was brought up strict Catholic who do you question? Everything is about fear these days...fear,fear,fear, but after being completely on my own for a number of years I got a certain perspective of life...no fear, NONE...not of any other person regardless of their social status, title, whatever...people, you ALL FUCKING BLEED and you had better get used to that idea, and fast

I went off track here, talking about the Catholic church and my upbringing, so while I could go on much longer I will stop here, except to say I am sick and tired of some funny looking guy in a funny looking hat in a far-off land dictating how people in THIS country live their fucking lives, what they do in the privacy of their own bedrooms, and if they can marry each other or not...I say enough is enough and it is high time we say fuck you to these idiots and their outdated fairy-tales

[Botany]

56. And people should give a crap what this old pedophile hiding creep says?

He helped the nazis in WW II and lied about it after that he help to cover up
and hide pedophile priests and bishops ...... God's messenger on earth :puke:

[TK421]

58. I'm reminded of the creepy preacher guy from Poltergeist 2

[liberal N proud]

59. In cases of male prostitution

So is he condoning male prostitution?

[Mhak]

62. Wait, does this mean....

the Pope might finally be down with giving birth control and HIV protection to people all over the world who need it desperately, but have been told for decades that God basically want them to die and have kids born into poverty who will also likely die if they have sex, because condoms are evil?

Wow, what a nice guy! Only took the needless deaths of millions for him to come to his senses. And in record time, too, when compared to how slowly the church has changed on previous issues.

[JDPriestly]

63. Using the example of a male prostitute strikes me as odd.

Are male prostitutes the first thing he thinks of when he thinks about unsafe sex?

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

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