Muslims warn of anarchy if Christian mother pardoned

[Joanne98]

Source: Herald Sun

PAKISTANI Muslims have threatened anarchy if the Government pardons a Christian mother sentenced to death for blasphemy, calling hundreds of protesters onto the streets.

Hundreds of Muslims marched in the eastern city of Lahore after the most influential Sunni Muslim alliance in Pakistan urged the Government not to grant mother-of-five Aasia Bibi clemency.

A crowd of several hundred called for "Jihad" and pledged to sacrifice their lives to protect the honour of Muhammad.

The rally was organised by a subsidiary of banned charity Jamaat-ud-Dawa, which the United Nations has blacklisted as a terrorist organisation.



Read more: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/muslims-warn-of-anarchy-if-christian-mother-pardoned/story-e6frf7jx-1225961791358

[slackmaster]

1. People might start dancing on Sunday

Dogs sleeping with cats!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[RandomThoughts]

3. Shouldn't Muhammad be able to handle that himself?

You would think that if he went to heaven he would have plenty of help with that issue and would not need people to handle that issue by killing and dieing. Wouldn't his honor be protected from there? If that was suppose to happen?


Would he need or want his followers to die for that issue, wouldn't that be a bit prideful? I really am curious, what do his writings say about things like humility and being above such things?


I could understand if someone stood up for their beliefs in those issues and was in a bad situation, but actual doing harm for such reasons? Is that what he taught? Sounds a bit like elevating him above a prophet to me, a criticism of Christianity by many Muslims.

[SkyDaddy7]

16. Trying to apply "REASON" to any religion won't...

get you too far...The deeper you dig & the more questions one ask about any religion the divinity quickly wears off. The Quran is like the Bible it has tons of conflicting messages on a wide range of topics including women...However, it is my personal opinion that the Quran is harder on women than the Bible is.

[DesertDiamond]

70. I notice that when people say "religion" they always leave Buddhism out of the equation.

Buddhism is about controlling ourselves, not others. There is no deity to offend or defend in Buddhism. Buddhism is completely about respecting all life. There is no contradiction in Buddhism. In Buddhism whatever we do to others we do to ourselves. There is no contradicting Buddhist teaching in that regard. In Buddhism each practitioner has to seek the teaching themselves. That may be why no wars have ever been fought to force Buddhism on others. To force others to say they are Buddhist would automatically make it not Buddhism.

This is not to say that there is no way to pervert the teachings of Buddhism. It's been done. Shakyamuni said we have to keep an eye out for perversions of his teachings and denounce them, and as long as there are at least some who will do that, hopefully we never see such horrific things done to our fellow beings in the name of Buddhism.

Okay, I've had my rant. :-)

[RandomThoughts]

86. Funny thing, your comment sort of says it is not thought of as a religion for a reason.

By your comment you remove it as a 'religion' in traditional structure, and make a thought about community also about the individual, a very interesting comment. If the concept of that religion is as you explain, then it would not be thought of as a religious group, but a group of religious people.

A religion is mostly a cannon of teachings that groups people together, but in your comment about Buddhism it speaks about individuality, yet being the better individual is often about helping others, community.

Interesting comment.


On a side note, how do you feel about life for life, where something like vegetarianism is not needed if the life of an animal is used to sustain another life. Do you feel that is meat eating for survival, with proper respect, is wrong, or only if that is the only option?

Also on the scale of honoring life, how far down the scale does the belief go, how do you feel about the life of bacteria and viruses. Do you feel that an immune system is a form of taking life?

[SkyDaddy7]

105. I tend to agree with exactly what you said....

I actually know some atheist that claim to adhere to Buddhism...The Buddhism without all the supernatural mumbo jumbo.

Most of the time when I say "religion" in terms of something in the USA I am speaking about Christianity...After all to me I see it as a sleeping time bomb in this country! Look at what the many of the largest Christian groups want to do in terms of women's rights, gay rights, science in the classroom, medical research & many other issues! I have hope that America will eventually turn away from this idea that America is the Christian god's fav country & we must enact Biblical Laws to prevent this god from punishing us with things like 9/11, hurricanes & financial crash...But it is obvious we are going in the wrong direction!

[LanternWaste]

94. Not simply religion, but all man-made constructs

Not simply religion, but all man-made constructs which appear only in our imaginations-- philosophy, politics, economics, the art, etc.

All have as their foundation, nothing more than the projection of imagination. However, it is my personal opinion that some philosophies, some economics, and some political structures are harder on women thatn others...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

85. That and I always love how "God" needs to be reminded how great he is on a constant basis. nt

[lector]

4. why

Why are Christians in a Muslim country to begin with ? They don't want you there, don't need you there, and wish you would just leave them alone. Is that to much to ask ?

[SoCalNative]

5. A more important question is

why is it only blasphemy against Muhammed?

[Bragi]

60. You want to expand the scope of their blasphemy laws?

I think blasphemy laws of any sort anywhere are an intolerable offense to human rights.

[24601]

92. And include holding any opinions that conflict with mine! n/t

[WillParkinson]

7. Because being a Muslim is akin to being the devil...

You need to be converted to the christian way of thinking, as all people do, because that's how Sue C's it. (Sorry, had to sneak the Glee reference in.)

On edit: Forgot the :sarcasm: tag for those who actually require it.

[fujiyama]

8. Ummm Christians have been in the region for hundred of years

well before the founding of Pakistan. Families can't just "get up and leave".

Maybe Pakistan should try joining the civilized world and allow people to practice the religion of their choice.

[handmade34]

10. Yes. It is too much to ask

What the hell is wrong with us? It is the 21st Century and dogmatic religion has long overspent its welcome everywhere

[Madam Mossfern]

11. Wow!

Just wow.

Cat's got my tongue on this one or am I not seeing the sarcasm thingy.

[kestrel91316]

35. Gosh, maybe she was BORN there??

[Dappleganger]

53. Yes--what's needed is freedom to choose religion,

which one or not to have one at all. She lives there because her family is there and it's HER country too.

[MrBig]

81. Muslim Glenn Beck??? Is that you???

What an amazing post.

Of course I'm guessing the author of this post would fail to see the hypocrisy of being against Glenn Beck and his ilk stating, "why are Muslims in a Christian country to begin with?" or even being against Hitler and the Nazi's saying "why are Jews in our country to begin with?"

I hate making comparisons to Nazi Germany as it is completely overdone in today's society. But wow, this is pretty spot on with their message.

[lunasun]

83. I was thinking of more Torquemada

than Glenn Beck but it is all the same crap ... , and I agree that this reasoning can be extended to a supposed ""Christian nation"" asking Jews and Muslims to leave too. ..........

-" comparisons to Nazi Germany as it is completely overdone in today's society " - not really; just more happening that begs comparisons let us hope the poster forgot the sarcasm thingy :)

[DeadEyeDyck]

87. yeah you right

she shouldn't have been sitting in the Moslem section. LOL

[LeftishBrit]

89. She is Pakistani - not a foreigner

There has been a Christian minority in Pakistan for a very long time.

[The Croquist]

93. Maybe because she was born there?

I don't know but 5% of the citizens of Pakistan are non-Muslims.

If I asked why there are non-Christians in the US I would be correctly flamed. There's nothing like a double standard.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[DinahMoeHum]

9. Fuck 'em. Let them have their Kabuki theater. . .

and show the rest of the world what a bunch of degenerates (and blasphemists) they themselves are.

:evilfrown:

[handmade34]

12. well

not much different than any other fundamentalists

[slackmaster]

14. Please name another religion that prescribes a death penalty for blasphemy

If you can.

[handmade34]

15. in the broad sense

was suggesting the degenerative nature of fundamentalism itself: e.g. the anti-abortion Christians willing to kill for their cause...

[No Elephants]

17. A handful or less of people whom our government prosecutes as criminals versus government itself

mandating death for religious speech (or cartoons, or whatever). Not really comparable.

[handmade34]

23. whether it be a few individuals

or a country... the issue at hand is fundamentalism... comparing a bag of apples to a tree full of apples... it's still apples

[No Elephants]

33. Only for those who do not distinguish between apples and oranges.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

31. A handful of fanatics and splinter groups don't define the official doctrine of a religion

:hi:

[Turborama]

43. Nor should a government. n/t

:hi:

[No Elephants]

49. Agree. Nor do they represent the official posture of any government, be it a theocracy or not.

(Though, I haste to add, I don't advoczte for a theocracy of any kind.)

[Igel]

103. In this case, so far, they do represent the official policy of a government.

Which is merely implementing traditional laws dating back a millennium and originating elsewhere.

Now, the government may decide to extend mercy to the poor soul who has been founding guilty by a duly appointed court, acting on behalf of duly enacted and widely supported laws.

In that case, mercy may be the government's position and justice the position of a handful of fanatics and loons. But the official government position even then would be that she is still a blasphemer and worthy of death, except that they've decided to show mercy.

Amazing, it's the same in Lebanon and Jordan and Sa'udi Arabia and Pakistan and Egypt, citing the same scholars and the same justification, and linking it explicitly to religion and usually with a lot of support from population and the religious establishment; but it's always judged to be a goofy little non-representative bit with no basis in law or tradition, acting contrary to their "true" religion. Or at least that's what's held to be clear, objective thinking by advocates of the religion or defenders of the religionists. Anything else would empower our domesticate opponents.

When she's pardoned and then killed, the reaction will be, "Who could have predicted?" Because to say otherwise would be to undermine the premise.

[DinahMoeHum]

18. The Pharisees (Jewish) yelled for Jesus's death. . .on blasphemy charges

once upon a time. . .

The Pharisees were the fundamentalists of their time.

:evilfrown:

[No Elephants]

19. Or so we're told by oral traditions of what 4 Christians supposedly said 2 thousand years ago,

that eventually got written down and filtered thru many translations and Church zealots.

[DinahMoeHum]

24. Like I said, ". . .once upon a time". . .

or as we say in my mother culture: "...once there was and was not...".

Make of that what you will.

[No Elephants]

30. I believe nothing and everything.

[slackmaster]

32. "Once upon a time..." doesn't cut it

I mean right now.

[kestrel91316]

36. Certain American "christians" say we should have the death penalty for

being gay, sassing our parents, not obeying husbands; though they are curiously silent on the matters of wearing cotton/poly blends and eating shellfish, which the bible considers just as egregious.

[slackmaster]

37. None of that is official Christian doctrine

I think people who misuse apostrophes should be put to death, but I don't speak for all writers or all proofreaders.

[kestrel91316]

68. It's in the bible. If that doesn't make it official, I don't know what does.

[slackmaster]

73. The Bible is a book, not a religion. What present-day religion officially prescribes that penalty?

The answer is "none". The passage in question has been superseded in Judaism and in Christianity by more modern doctrine.

[kestrel91316]

75. Likewise, the Koran is a book, not a religion. And there is no single

imam in Islam who dictates the rules for all muslims. Fanatics of both religions spew hate and use their texts to call for murder of unbelievers. Your attempt to paint YOUR favored religion(s) as superior to Islam gets a fail. And yes, I'm completely agnostic if not occasionally atheistic.

[slackmaster]

78. Judaism, Christianity, and Buddhism are merely the smartest kids on the short bus.

All organized religions suck donkey balls. Some suck more than others.

[Igel]

104. I like that euphemism.

I seriously doubt anybody under age 30 will get it.

Still, I like the euphemism.

[Bragi]

51. Big difference: Americans have First Amendment rights

Unlike in Pakistan, the constitution protects against zealots using the law to impose their religion on others.

[xor]

62. But how many get their way in any western country?

Either way, I still think this is more of a culture thing than anything else. I'm certain that if the US was mostly muslim, but the same in all other ways, we wouldn't be executing people for blasphemy. That's why we can look to certain places in Africa where it's viewed as acceptable for Christians to kill people for similar reasons.


*No, this isn't a Christians in the US are just as bad as these guys... If you think it is, then please re-read it and/or ask for clarification on my points.

[Old Troop]

84. Which ones?

[Dorian Gray]

106. Which American Christians

say that? Westboro??? They're insane.

[jb5150]

40. Christianity

Leviticus 24:11-16

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/lev/24/11-16#11

[slackmaster]

48. That is Judaism. Christianity did not exist at the time that was written.

I'll bet you can't find a single modern Jewish or Christian scholar who would say that reflrects current doctrine of either religion.

[DinahMoeHum]

56. Dude, flag on the play. You just moved the goalposts.

You asked for a religion (post #14). You got it (Judaism)

Never mind that no sane modern scholar would use it today. That's not really the issue.

What matters is that fundamentalists of all stripes take "holy books" literally at face value, including penalties for infractions, sins, etc.

[slackmaster]

67. "Please name another religion that prescribes a death penalty for blasphemy" was the challenge

Present tense, i.e. right now, today.

What matters is that fundamentalists of all stripes take "holy books" literally at face value, including penalties for infractions, sins, etc.

You're trying to force an equivalence between present-day Islam and obsolete versions of other religions. Islam is hundreds of years behind the times in terms of modernization.

[DinahMoeHum]

74. Dude, penalty still holds. . .

You did not mention "present tense, ie. right now, today" or any other qualifying conditions.

Now if you please, let's just agree to disagree. I really don't have time for pissing contests here.

(Oh and BTW, you just got added to my "Ignore" list.)

[slackmaster]

79. That should have been clear to you from the tense of the verb, i.e. "prescribes"

:hi:

There's nothing ambiguous or unclear about it.

[skepticscott]

71. The Bible prescribes

the death penalty for children who bad-mouth their parents, as well as a few other dire offenses. Other questions?

[slackmaster]

72. The Bible is a book, not a religion. What present-day religion officially prescribes that penalty?

Right now.

[Nye Bevan]

80. Remember when the Pope issued a fatwa on the guy who created "Piss Christ"?

Neither do I.

[Turborama]

88. "Piss Christ" Death Threats

Reception

The piece caused a scandal when it was exhibited in 1989, with detractors, including United States Senators Al D'Amato and Jesse Helms, outraged that Serrano received $15,000 for the work, part of it from the taxpayer-funded National Endowment for the Arts. Serrano received death threats and hate mail, and lost grants due to the controversy.<8> Others alleged that the government funding of Piss Christ violated separation of church and state.<9><10> The work was vandalized at the National Gallery of Victoria, Australia, and gallery officials reported receiving death threats in response to Piss Christ.<11> Supporters argued that the controversy over Piss Christ is an issue of artistic freedom and freedom of speech.<11>

Sister Wendy Beckett, an art critic and Catholic nun, stated in a television interview with Bill Moyers that she regarded the work as not blasphemous but a statement on "what we have done to Christ": that is, the way contemporary society has come to regard Christ and the values he represents.<12>

During a retrospective of Serrano's work at the National Gallery of Victoria in 1997, the then Catholic Archbishop of Melbourne, George Pell, sought an injunction from the Supreme Court of Victoria to restrain the National Gallery of Victoria from publicly displaying Piss Christ, which was not granted. Some days later, one patron attempted to remove the work from the gallery wall, and two teenagers later attacked it with a hammer.<13> The director of the NGV cancelled the show, allegedly out of concern for a Rembrandt exhibition that was also on display at the time.<9>

Links to references can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ#Reception

[The Croquist]

99. So you are equating individuals issuing death threats to a state

ordered execution? I don't remember the Australian government calling for killing the "artist" Maybe you can cite the Vatican, Jehovah Witnesses, or Baptists calling for the murder of the "artist".

I don't believe in God but I don't hate religion.

[Turborama]

101. No, I'm countering the allegation that there weren't any negative reactions to it

One thing you can rely on is "Piss Christ" always eventually being brought up as an argument to make it seem as if Muslims are the only ones who react.

[LeftishBrit]

90. Historically,some Christian countries did

A few hundred years ago, it was a capital offence in Britain. In 1697, the last execution for blasphemy occurred in Britain, when 18-year-old Scotsman Thomas Aikenhead was hanged for saying on a cold Edinburgh night, "I wish I were in that place Ezra calls hell so I could warm myself."

Fortunately, Western countries have moved on from theocracy some time ago, as has much, but sadly not all, of the rest of the world. Pakistan, however, seems to be getting worse, not better.

[woo me with science]

52. Your knee must really hurt. nt

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

28. Meh. Supposedly, most religions are.

[Turborama]

20. Jama'at-ud-Da'wah is an alias for Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) - LeT has hyped up a crowd of "hundreds"

People need to get some perspective on this. This is not 1.5 billion people saying this woman should be killed, it's a terrorist organization/cult that is using religion to brainwash people.

Jama'at-ud-Da'wah

From Wikipedia

Jama'at-ud-Da'wah Pakistan (Urdu: جماعة الدعوہ پاکستان ) (JuD) is a banned Islamic organisation that is considered by the United Nations to be an alias of the banned terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT).<1><2><3> It was nominally launched in Lahore, Pakistan in 1985 as Markaz Daw'a wal Irshad, but the organisation changed its name after the United States State Department nominally declared Lashkar-e-Taiba to be a terrorist organisation.<3> It also publicly retracted itself from any nominal association with the LeT.<1>

The amir of JuD is Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, who was an Islamic Studies professor at the University of Engineering and Technology in Lahore and the founder of Lashkar-e-Taiba.<1> He was accused of inciting riots in Pakistan in 2006 according to government allegations, but was freed in Ramadan on the order of High Court after a long trial as the charges could not be proved.<4>

The aftermath of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks

According to a media report, the JuD was accused by the U.S. of being the front group for the prime suspects of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks, the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the organization that trained the 10 gunmen involved in these attacks.<5>

On December 7, 2008, under pressure from USA and India, Pakistani army launched an operation against LeT and raided a markaz (centre) of the LeT at Shawai Nullah, 5 km from Muzaffarabad in Pakistan-controlled Azad Kashmir. The army arrested more than twenty members of the Lashkar-e-Taiba and Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, the alleged mastermind of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks. They are said to have sealed off the centre, which included a madrasah and a mosque alongside offices of the LeT according to the government of Pakistan.<6><7>

Full profile and references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jama'at-ud-Da'wah

Someone needs to help that poor woman to get out of the country so she can be safe from these lunatics.

[No Elephants]

22. Didn't government sentence her? It's a possible pardon that's being protested.

[handmade34]

25. Yes

http://sify.com/news/pak-s-blasphemy-law-is-not-god-given-but-man-made-salmaan-taseer-news-international-kl0rEggdbai.html

"...Punjab Governor Salmaan Taseer has said Pakistan's Blasphemy Law is man-made and not God-given, and that his meeting with blasphemy accused Pak-Christian woman- Aasia Bibi- is being politicised, a private TV channel reported.

During an interview with the channel, Taseer said no Muslim could even imagine blasphemy, and added that the issue important for him was reviewing the Blasphemy Law..."

edit to add:

"It is primarily used against vulnerable groups that face social and political discrimination. Heading that category are religious minorities and heterodox Muslim sects,"

not much different than some of the laws still on the books here and elsewhere... sodomy laws, crack/cocaine, etc...

[No Elephants]

27. Apparently, Taseer wants us to believe that he speaks for both God and 1.5 billion Muslims.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

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[ButterflyBlood]

107. Sodomy laws? Welcome to 7 years ago.

Lawrence v. Texas. All gone.

I'd say crack cocaine is just a tad bit different from blasphemy...

[Turborama]

29. A court did. Look at who's doing the protesting. LeT. A terrorist death cult.

And from the article in the OP:

Pakistan has yet to execute anyone for blasphemy, but the case exposes the deep fault lines in the conservative country on a law that rights activists say encourages Islamist extremism in a nation wracked by Taliban attacks.

Pakistan has a real problem with Islamic extremists who hook people into their death cult by providing poor people with "education", food and shelter.

They've also got a problem with having a law on the books that means people can be executed for blasphemy. I've been following this case from the beginning and, now LeT have exposed their involvement, I think it was all fabricated by them (using their brainwashed followers) to stir up trouble with the government.

[Bragi]

44. Turbo, you are seriously understating the problem here

It's true, Pakistan has yet to execute anyone for blasphemy but it doesn't take a lot of research to see that what frequently happens is that when blasphemy accusations or charges are made, the accused are eventually killed by individual zealots or mobs of zealots.

See http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=Pakistan+blasphemy+number+of+deaths&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enCA281CA286&ie=UTF-8#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enCA281CA286&q=Pakistan+blasphemy+accused+killed&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=573da4ec7e15bdf2

And maybe there is a tiny extremist group spearheading these protests, as you point out, but as cited in the earlier article I posted, mainstream Sunni organizations in Pakistan are also calling for no pardon -- and for killing the woman, presumably, though that isn't clear to me -- for fear of the anarchy that will result.

I also think there are limits to how much we should be prepared to assume poor and ignorant religious zealots of any faith are not responsible for their violent actions because they've been "brainwashed."

The reality seems to be:

- these blasphemy laws are intolerable, as I think you yourself have indicated;
- non-Muslims in Pakistan are at risk simply because of their religion;
- there does not appear to widespread public support in Pakistan for repealing the blasphemy laws, or for stopping people who are prepared to inflict violence on alleged blasphemers.

If that is indeed the situation, I'm not sure what's next, but I think it should involve Pakistan being declared a rogue nation, and some kind of global program established to protect religious refugees from that country. Clearly, this kind of response would not be a small matter.

[Turborama]

59. I scrolled through the 1st 100 or so results of that search and there seems to be a common pattern

I have to admit that this is the first time I've heard about all this but those murders have been happening over the past year and a half or so. It's not like there's been a long history of this. It seems like a new phenomenon and I'm trying to work out who's actually behind it and what their real motivation is.

I also think there are limits to how much we should be prepared to assume poor and ignorant religious zealots of any faith are not responsible for their violent actions because they've been "brainwashed."

I don't know, even rich educated people have done crazy evil shit in the past when they have been brainwashed. Manson's "family"...

I wasn't using the words cult and brainwashed lightly.

I can offer some personal experience on this matter, too. When I was in my early 20s I had to rescue a friend who was brainwashed by a mad genius "guru" who'd used autosuggestion hypnosis to try and hook him into his cult. In fact, when I went to get him I got a little taste of what he'd been through myself and I didn't even know he was doing it. I realized in time, though, and I got my usually very together friend, who's brain had been turned into a cauliflower and had the mental capacity of a 5 year old, out of there and into recovery sharpish. It's a long and interesting story and I can go into it in more detail some other time but suffice to say, the brainwashing of people to get and keep them in cults is a very-very-very serious matter.

Sadly, poor and ignorant people who have literally been manipulated and brainwashed since childhood are most probably a lost cause in rural Pakistan. Unless the government can get it together and provide a decent alternative, which is what we are giving them a lot of money to do.

I agree with your 3 realities, apart from not knowing exactly how the whole of Pakistan feels about that intolerable law.

I'm not sure what's next, either. As I said, this is getting more and more complicated and I have a feeling it's not going to have a happy ending. Let's not forget, Pakistan has nuclear weapons. Do we really want another nuclear rogue state on our hands? (by "we" I mean the world)

[Bragi]

66. I agree: there will (likely) not be a happy ending here

Part of the unhappy ending I fear is that this is the kind of situation that American right-wing haters will use to promote Islamophobia.

Typically, the response from the left will be to ignore it as long as possible, and when forced to deal with it, to make a muted statement of perfunctory outrage about the actual events, coupled with a strong condemnation of the other side for being racists (which they are), a forceful appeal for tolerance and harmony (which will sound stupid to many in the context), while quibbling and nit-picking on the details of what's happening.

Which is a precisely why, in my view, the right is making gains promoting Islamophobia. The left prevaricates when actions of some Muslims and some Muslim countries ought to be strongly condemned, and thus makes itself irrelevant to the growing anxiety many people have about what's going on, and to their discussion of this.

(If anyone wants to test this theory, do a google blog search right now and see which side of the political spectrum is now galvanizing around this story from Pakistan, and which side is studiously ignoring it.)

[Turborama]

69. The difference between us and the reich wing nutjobs is that they know exactly what they want to do

KILL THEM ALL as quickly and efficiently as possible. I don't need to do a search to know that they're probably talking about turning Pakistan into a massive glass parking lot.

Whereas, we are discussing the ins and outs of this extremely complicated situation and trying to work out what the hell is going on and what CONCRETE steps we can make to solve it without having to go to all out war with a nuclear armed country on the border of a country we're already figting in.

[No Elephants]

45. ideally, it is a always a court that sentences (as opposed to say, a dictator).

Not sure what your point in specifying a court sentenced her after I posted government sentenced her. Are you trying to imply some difference between "government" sentwncing and a "court" sentencing for violation of an ezisting law? If so, we disagree.

[Turborama]

61. Well, a court did sentence her.

A judge and a president are not the same thing. Disagree if you like.

[Bragi]

34. The widespread "anarchy" possibility is quite real

It isn't just a small bunch of wackos that are calling for riots. Mainstream Muslim leaders are also calling on government not to pardon her because of the anarchy that will result. (See reference below)

I don't have a magic solution to offer, and I agree someone needs to get her out of the country.

However, it seems clear that with its blasphemy laws, and a significant number of (apparently) easily-enraged Muslims, Pakistan is not a safe country for the 6 million or so non-Muslims living there at this time.

- B


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s most influential Sunni Muslim alliance urged the government Friday not to pardon a Christian mother sentenced to death for blasphemy, warning that it would lead to nationwide anarchy...

“The pardon would lead to anarchy in the country,” the head of Sunni Ittehad Council, Sahibzada Fazal Kareem, told AFP.

“Our stand is very clear that this punishment cannot be waived.”

Kareem said that the alliance would lead protests nationwide on Friday against any moves to pardon Aasia.

The council opposes Taliban militants, which are fighting government troops in parts of northwest Pakistan, and has also organised a protest march against deadly attacks on Sufi shrines blamed on hardliners."

http://www.dawn.com/2010/11/26/sunni-ittehad-council-warns-of-anarchy-if-asia-pardoned.html

[Turborama]

39. "The council opposes Taliban militants, which are fighting government troops"?

Shit! This is getting really complicated.

On edit, please see here for some follow up comments I made earlier: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4629551&mesg_id=4629664

[Bragi]

47. Agreed

That line jumped out at me too.

I guess it means these are Pakistani friendlies.

Yikes.

[kestrel91316]

38. Not much different from the Phelps crowd, except it's bigger.

[Bragi]

46. That and the fact that the law is on their side

Which I do believe makes a huge difference.

[hollowdweller]

21. Jews

Have lived as a minority religion in a lot of countries.

Christianity really got it's biggest increase in pagan Rome I think.

While both the above religions have had dark periods the fact that they sort of began as a minority meant that they had to adapt to multi religious societies to a degree.

Islam in middle east countries really has never had to co exsist to any great degree, so what the Christians and Jewish religions went thru "give unto Caesar" the Islamic ones have not.

Now that western countries have low birth rate and the middle east high you are seeing a lot of people moving to the west from those countries and it will be interesting to see how they adapt. In the US pretty good I think.

I've heard Islamic people here say they were freer to practice Islam in the US than in their home countries.

But I think that back in the countries they came from it is getting worse maybe? I mean "Death to the USA" aside if you look at the terrorist attacks over there it's more the 2 branches of Islam killing each other. With the exception of Ireland that sort of stuff was over a LONG time ago in Christianity.

It's sort of like some place way back in the sticks in the US where there are not jobs, anybody with anything on the ball moved somewhere else and all that are left is uneducated fundamentalists. Our course mostly our uneducated fundamentalists don't want to kill the catholics or other religions, but I'm not sure with the right prompting by a gov't or leader who could exploit them they wouldnt.

Overall I'm not sure how you do it but IMO as long as people are uneducated and isolated you are gonna see this stuff. The key will be education and looking down on them as backwards by the world community and more educated muslims when it happens.

[No Elephants]

26. Wow.

[Imajika]

42. Most of the 9-11 hijackers were educated...

Many suicide bombers and would be Islamic terrorists do not come from poor backgrounds, poverty and lack of education often have nothing whatsoever to do with their fanaticism.

Islam just doesn't play nice with other religions for a host of reasons.

I get a laugh at people who claims the Israel/Palestine issue is the root of all these problems. While it is a flashpoint, that issue is not the fundamental reason for all the fundamentalist violence coming out of Islamic communities.

Having lived in Thailand for many years, I can tell you that the vicious Islamic terrorism in the south of that country directed against Buddhist has NOTHING to do with America, Israel, etc, etc.

While all regions have their fanatics, at this point in time Islam simply has far more and appears to be hundreds of years behind most of the major world religions in terms of modernity.

There is really no such thing as a "war on terror". What is really happening is a war within Islam itself - between conservative fundamentalists and modernists. The more we insert ourselves into this fight, the more we empower the fanatics. This is why our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have been such a gift horse to the bin Laden's of the world.

The "oh but Christians do it too" crowd are sorely misguided and just appear unwilling to call out Islam for the extreme backwardness it displays repeatedly.

[hollowdweller]

58. I agree with most of what you are saying

However while the 9/11 guys were educated, I believe that the general lack of education in the areas where the fundamentalists are the greatest does play a big role in the extreme ideology. That and cultural isolation.

Always been interesting to me that the US seems the most hostile to Shiites who seem to be the recipients of the attacks of the same guys that are attacking us meanwhile we are buddies with a lot of the countries who are sending citizens and money to the actual terrorists. I guess that has to do with Israel. Seems to me the Shiites are more of a threat to Israel so we must be warlike with them even if it's against the US interests.

[Imajika]

63. Remember, much of the Sunni world is pissed at us..

...precisely because we empowered the Shiites in Iraq.

I am not sure the US is more hostile to Shiites than we are to the Sunni's. Perhaps it seems that way because of our feud with Iran since 1979.

Within the Muslim world, the Shiites are often considered uneducated and backward - particularly in places like Lebanon. Maybe that thinking has rubbed off on the US to some degree.

[sarcasmo]

41. The religious war continues.

[rollin74]

50. fuck em

[bobthedrummer]

54. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. k&r n/t

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Politicub]

55. The concept of organized anarchy makes me LOL

Notice I said the concept, not what's actually happening in Pakistan.

For all of the social and economic problems in Pakistan, one would hope that people would rail against corruption rather than a little blasphemy.

[Roy Rolling]

57. The old line...

"Anarchists Unite!" But the similarities are eerie: a fanatical and loudmouth minority makes a public display to demand what they want from the government, despite logic and objectivity that are being trashed in the process. Instead of critical thinking, they are moved to action by learders of charismatic and fanatical shadow groups on the fringe of mainstream thought. Sound familiar?

[Politicub]

77. My thoughts exactly n/t

[Arugula Latte]

64. Oh, the joys of religion never end...

[Taverner]

76. Fuck them. The police should take out anyone protesting the pardon

I'm serious - folks that stupid - folks who care more about a stupid fairy tale than someone's life should be removed from the gene pool period

This is the kind of thing that makes us such "Angry Atheists"

[Odin2005]

82. Those loonies can go fuck themselves.

These must be the same idiots that rioted because of the Muhammad cartoons.

[LeftishBrit]

91. Apparently organized by LeT - a horrible group

They are a terrorist organization, especially against India, though they have sponsored violence elsewhere too. They have particular venom against Hindus and Jews, though as this case shows, also Christians and generally anyone who isn't their brand of Muslim.

[Xenotime]

95. Why all the anger towards them?

[LeftishBrit]

100. Towards whom?

If you mean the LeT, it might be because they are a bunch of far-right xenophobic bigoted supporters of violence!

Obviously, this does NOT mean that all Muslims or all Pakistanis deserve anger - any more than all Americans deserve anger because of e.g. the Ku Klux Klan; but this particular group does.

[JerseygirlCT]

102. +1 nt