Fidel Castro: Obama is More Dangerous Now

[Billy Burnett]

Source: Radio Cadena Agramonte

Havana, Cuba, Nov 27.- The leader of the Cuban Revolution, Fidel Castro, said U.S. President Barack Obama is more dangerous now that a competition has emerged in the United States to see who is more of a rightist.

Obama is smart but he is more dangerous at present because he, too, is going to compete now, the revolutionary leader said during a meeting with Latin American intellectuals, according to an article published in the Granma newspaper Friday. He is thinking about what happened to (William)Clinton and (Ronald)Reagan, who had lost popularity but then rose in the polls when they ventured into confrontations, Fidel stated.

Fidel Castro expressed that it is not forbidden to be optimistic, but he prefers to be realistic toward the current international situation, now marked by the South-North Korea conflict and in the midst of a profound economic crisis. The leader of the Cuban Revolution recalled the statements of Michel Chossudovsky, editor in chief of the Global Research website, regarding the fact that NATO -- Germany and other member countries -- have tactical nuclear weapons.

The United States has a government hated by the most diverse array of people in the world, Fidel Castro said, mentioning the feelings of affront of the Japanese people regarding the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Read more: http://www.cadenagramonte.cu/english/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3429:fidel-castro-obama-is-more-dangerous-now&catid=2:cuba&Itemid=14

[Proud Liberal Dem]

1. Obama? Dangerous?

:wtf:

Methinks Fidel might be getting a little paranoid in his advanced age?

[defendandprotect]

9. Guess it isn't Obama sending drones over Pakistan ...???

and not his administration -- a la Biden -- suggesting that Israel would be

"justified" in attacking Iran!!!

:eyes:



And for the American public, they've also awakened to find that Obama made back room

deals with Big Pharma and the private Health Care Industry which trampled our best

chance yet for MEDICARE FOR ALL!!


And presumably it wasn't Obama who just moved the Bush/Obama financial coup -- one

of the largest scams every pulled on the American public -- $12 trillion into the hands

of corrupt and criminal corporations?


A double play -- foreign and domestic instability!!!

[ronnie624]

40. When U.S. Americans consider a dangerous regime,

for the most part, they can think only in terms of what might pose a danger to themselves, never in terms of what others in the world might fear. In the last 60 years, no other nation has killed more foreigners than the United States, yet even presumably informed posters on a progressive forum, cannot understand why others might fear the U.S. government.

[defendandprotect]

108. These are situations and events rarely challenged ... as long as elites control history ....

and as long as leadership which would lead them in a fearless direction is so absent!

The right wing propagandists work 24/7 -- those moving the truth along are barely heard.

[clixtox]

185. Barack's mother, father and step-father were CIA assets!

I wonder why this information is known by just a few journalists, like the Australian, John Pilger, and folks regularly demonized by the establishment for supposedly being "conspiracy nuts".

Try using google for more information by searching for (Obama, mother, CIA) or (Obama, father, CIA), or (Obama, step-father, CIA).

This family history, including the fact that Obama's first job after graduation from Columbia was for BUSINESS INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION, a CIA front, certainly explains Obama's meteoric rise from obscurity to be the POTUS. BUSINESS INTERNATIONAL payed off Obama's college loans although Obama only worked for there for only about a year. How sweet a deal was that?

[defendandprotect]

196. Well, rather amazing that info hasn't surfaced here before, or did I miss it?

Right wing can only rise on political violence, stolen elections -- and lies.

Anyone involved in truth telling is demonized.

Wonder about Michell's family -- don't know her maiden name.

Interesting -- thanks!

[clixtox]

206. I, like you, D & P, spend a lot of time "keeping up" with the "news".

I had not heard a whisper of these Obama and Obama family CIA connections until the last few days.

A lot of the mystery surrounding the apparent corporatist policies supported by Obama, and the corporatist makeup of his appointments disappears when Obama's true background is discovered. It's understandable now why Obama has been very coy about divulging much of his background.

It turns out that this isn't knowledge that has been completely suppressed, there have even been books written about this "spooky" family history that are readily available on Amazon.

None of this pertinent information has been published in the main $tream, corporate media that I have been able to find. This, I suppose, media self-censorship reminds me of the presidency of Alberto Fujimora of Peru (now serving a 25 year sentence in Peru) who was able to completely control all of the media in Peru during his presidency.

[defendandprotect]

213. Well, many here are trying to solve the "mystery" surrounding ....

Obama's pro-corporatist agenda by suggesting that he is being intimidated

and threatened --

While it's always possible -- it seems to be it's the last card being played by

those who simply are too frightened to see the truth of it.

But in looking at some of the material on this, I did notice a comment by someone

which offered that ....

"CIA having killed JFK weren't about to let go of control" --

Of course, I think the CIA were directly involved -- I think the plotters certainly

had to have LBJ in the White House -- and that it was an extensive plot, including

parts of the MIC and certainly wealthy right wingers.

But needless to say, after gaining power over our government they weren't about to

take chances on having another FDR or JFK come along!

We're given the candidates we get to vote for by TPB and we do it on computers in

case we get it wrong! :evilgrin:

Sometimes it does seem as if everyone in the world is working for the CIA!



:)

[TBF]

226. Michelle's maiden name is Robinson -

grew up in Chicago and her life looks pretty normal. Her dad worked for the city, and her mom a store clerk.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ruperto31]

85. I am so disappointed in President Obama on so many issues.

I will not vote for him again. His escalation in Afghanistan is evidence of his "dangerousness." And this is only one of many disappointing actions and/or inactions on his part since his inauguration.

[lark]

144. Hi and welcome to DU

I am also so very disappointed in Obama. At every turn, he takes the "right" side, the conservative turn, and makes his own bills ineffective just to reap continued bile and ire from the Repugs. So much potential has rarely been so totally wasted.

[MadMaddie]

164. Welcome to DU!

However; why are you and others surprised by the escalation? He said exactly what he was going to do when he ran, he said he was going to escalate in Afghanastan. He kept his word.

Now having said that and understanding history no foreign invader (even if it's righteous for a moment in time) has ever won anything in Afghanastan. The U.S has now been Afghanastan longer than the Russians were. The Russian military was crushed and the USSR as we knew it was on the brink of falling apart because of the war.

When Junior pulled our troops out of Afghanastan and sent them to Iraq. When Junior didn't take out Osama Bin Laden in Tora Bora all was lost at that time. The window of opportunity was lost. It is time to cut our losses and get the heck out of there.

The other thing is to address who funded the attacks, it was the Saudi's and as of today no Suadi leader has been prosecuted. Junior kissing the Suadi prince on the lips sealed that deal.

[defendandprotect]

170. And we have two years still to go .... bad to worse and who knows what more to come???

[JoFerret]

258. Sure he is dangerous

...to hope, change and progress in the US.

[jaxx]

2. Castro propaganda.

[stevenleser]

16. Yes, his rant reads like someone who doesnt matter and desperately wants to matter. n/t

[EFerrari]

26. Castro is the elder stateman of Latin America.

He is very respected. It's not the way BushCo wanted it to turn out but that's how it unfolded.

[stevenleser]

31. Where is he respected? I just got back from Latin America. He is not respected there n/t

[EFerrari]

32. He's been mentoring the last crop of democratic presidents

from Lula to Chavez and for years.















Even El Salvador, our doormat, has embraced Cuba.

[Judi Lynn]

37. We had the same thought, for sure, in response to this thread!

I didn't know you were working on one, either. :hi:

On edit:

I just realized you got a photo of Fidel Castro's long time wife, Dalia Soto del Valle! At first, I thought it might be Ortega's mother-in-law, or mother, since he brought so many family members with him, on one visit to see Fidel Castro during his recuperation! It's Fidel's wife! So cool. She tends to stay farther from the cameras than he, not so many photos available to US'ers.

It's probably because over 600 attempts have been made on his life, as admitted by our own C.I.A. Who wants to be a walking target?

[Judi Lynn]

43. Just noticed your photo of Funes in negotiations with Cuba. Very good news. n/t

[Odin2005]

100. Love that pic of Fidel and Lula.

There is something Kennedyesque about Lula, he's quite telegenic. :-)

[ChangoLoa]

223. Not long ago, you were saying you trusted Latinobarometro. Do you still trust it?

Latinobarometro, "the venerable old Chilean polling", which according to Borev "publishes the world's most comprehensive survey of Latin American perceptions, with a handy country-by-country breakdown"...

Well, what does the last (2009) latinobarometro say about Latin Americans' perception of Fidel?

Check for yourself:

http://www.latinobarometro.org/

"Informes"

"Informe anual 2009"

page 108

[Judi Lynn]

36. Maybe you're not talking to people in touch with their countrymen/women.

He is respected now, and has been. There has been a constant stream of Latin American presidents to visit him during his illness, and afterward, not to mention BEFORE he was ill.

http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/02qN1yGbi2cO8/350x.jpg http://www.havanatimes.org.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/brazils-lula-and-fidel-castro.jpg

Brazil's President Luis Inacio Lula da Silva, Fidel Castro

http://www.soberania.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/michelle_bachelet_y_fidel_castro_1.jpg

Chile's President Michelle Bachelet, Fidel Castro

http://www.periodicotribuna.com.ar.nyud.net:8090/old/images/fotos/fidel-nestor.jpg http://www.ole.com.ar.nyud.net:8090/fuera-de-juego/Nestor-Kirchner-Chavez-Fidel-Castro_OLEIMA20101027_0076_3.jpg

Argentina's late President Nestor Kirchner, Fidel Castro

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.nyud.net:8090/huff-wires/20090123/cb-cuba-fidel-castro/images/8b903497-e747-4331-a4f6-2c3174bbcfaa.jpg

Argentina's President Cristina Fernandez

http://schools-wikipedia.org.nyud.net:8090/images/834/83457.jpg

Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro

http://momento24.com.nyud.net:8090/en/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/fidel-y-correa.jpg

Ecuador's President, Rafael Correa, Fidel Castro

http://www.newsbullpen.com.nyud.net:8090/medias/image8617.jpg

Honduras' last legitimate President, Manuel Zelaya, Fidel Castro

http://schools-wikipedia.org.nyud.net:8090/images/834/83457.jpg http://images.lightstalkers.org.nyud.net:8090/images/271108/Alejo09.jpg

Bolivia's President Evo Morales, Fidel Castro

http://snappedshot.com.nyud.net:8090/turbo/sites/default/files/u3/fidel-castro-daniel-ortega-2009-21.jpg

Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega and family, Fidel Castro

http://pepitas.com.pe.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/toledo-fidel-castro.gif

Peru's President 2001 to 2006, Alejandro Toledo, Fidel Castro

ETC.

~~~~~

http://www.subvertednation.net.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/castro-trudeau-neanderthal.jpg

Canada's Pierre Trudeau, lifelong friend, Fidel Castro

http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com.nyud.net:8090/trudeauleo.JPG

Trudeau funeral, where Jimmy Carter and Fidel Castro spoke
and Castro invited Carter to visit Cuba, which he did.

http://www.ukprogressive.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/fidel-and-jimmy-full.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/olmedia/1980000/images/_1984371_carter_castro_ap150.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_TahXQ2WiF0s/SaLMwKyPJYI/AAAAAAAAMJ8/8W5Abv7tay8/s400/Fidel+Castro+10.JPG

During his visit in Cuba, former President Jimmy Carter spoke to the Cuban nation
over Cuba's live radio and television stations. He toured their medical research
laboratories and was given a standing invitation to return with medical research
specialists to tour the laboratories at any time in the future. Carter was the 1st
U.S. President to make the effort, like Nixon's trip to China. His trip was treated
with very little respect by our corporate media, of COURSE, unlike Nixon's, to a
US "enemy" which was hailed as being as significant as the landing on the moon!

[EFerrari]

72. Great pic of Brachelet, Judi Lynn and of President Carter, too!

Thanks so much.

lol

:)

[Odin2005]

101. Great pics of Carter with Castro, there!

[bitchkitty]

39. Oh, God, another one. n/t

[ProudDad]

58. And which 5 star resort

in Latin America were you staying in?

[EFerrari]

71. My ARENA relative owns one in San Salvador.

His family lives in a beautiful cage, basically, for "security". He has nothing good to say about Castro.

[Ruperto31]

86. Well, the owner of a 5 star resort would not be a Castro fan.

Now would he? Fidel would want to nationalize his business.

[Mika]

90. Then why are all of the European hotels in Cuba?

Looks like you've never been there also. But yet, you feel the need to render some bullshit here.... a waste of bandwidth.

---

[Ruperto31]

95. They aren't all in Cuba. Most of them are in Europe.

The ones in Cuba have to give the Cuban government a big piece of the action. Capitalists are not fond of doing this.

[EFerrari]

102. Yes, the golden cages against logical consequence must be maintained.

Gee, if I had funded death squads against the "Communists", I'd have nothing good to say about Fidel, either.

[Xicano]

96. Really? Explain this then....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSeDTek92-Q

[MyNameGoesHere]

186. You're right he is actually loved. n/t

[ChangoLoa]

224. Do you have some study to back your claim? nt

[Creative]

44. One of the things I like about "Call of Duty, Black Ops" is that your

first assignment is to kill Fidel Castro.

Castro was/is a two-bit dictator--nothing more, nothing less.

[ronnie624]

49. Time spent playing video games, would be better served learning about history. n/t

[Creative]

54. I would argue that time spent playing video games is time better spent

than promulgating propaganda regarding a murdering fascist dictator.

[ronnie624]

55. Propaganda = information.

Now see, if you spent some of your video game time absorbing info about history, you'd be able to address the facts of this issue, wouldn't you? Instead, you've been reduced to simply regurgitating inaccurate labels and attacking ad hominem.

[Creative]

77. Propaganda = mis-information, Minister.

[ProudDad]

60. Proof of the corrupting influence of that sick shit...

[Creative]

78. Something I’m sure that you would like to see banned.

[defendandprotect]

110. it's the right wing that does the banning .... and projecting of their own fears

and their own violence and evils onto others --

[Judi Lynn]

119. Isn't that the truth! The history, still unknown, apparently, by most US'ians, of atrocities

in the Americas is vast and horrendous. We don't hear a lot about it because it's shameful, and unworthy of civilized people, conceived and implemented by racist, classist rightists, and usually involves boatloads of US taxpayers' hard-earned dollars, completely behind our backs, and buried deeply in secrecy, discovered only through continuous effort, and years after the fact.

[defendandprotect]

120. Exactly ...!!

[EFerrari]

70. I think playing video games is about what some people can handle well. n/t

[Creative]

79. Yes, but one must be able to separate fact from fiction.

Which is something that those who worship at the alter of Castro are unable to do.

[Mika]

83. True. Not sure that you do.

As you reveal in your post #44....

One of the things I like about "Call of Duty, Black Ops" is that your
first assignment is to kill Fidel Castro.

Castro was/is a two-bit dictator--nothing more, nothing less.

It really seems as though you've crossed the line between reality and fantasy. Your real world posts conform with your video game inspired fantasy.

---

[EFerrari]

103. I've seen no evidence of "worship" here. In fact, that is the language

of the same extremists that funded terrorism in Miami and in Havana.

:)

[Judi Lynn]

115. Exactly the same. If you don't foam at the mouth and spew eternal hatred

for the former President of Cuba, you are a commie! Maybe they'll get coy with you and call you "Fidel's useful idiot."

Same people even called in death threats to store owners who didn't close shop on the day they swore they would close all of Miami down, when they lost their case in Federal Court to keep Juan Miguel Gonzalez' son, Elian, in Miami, as their own capture, and screw the dad, since he was a "commie."

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/elian/raidstreetfire.jpg http://www.thegully.com.nyud.net:8090/essays/america/img_usa/elian_riot.jpg http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/elian/protester-woman.jpg http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/elian/protesters-miami8.jpg http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/elian/protesters-miami4.jpg

~~~~~

http://www.walterlippmann.com.nyud.net:8090/index.4.jpg http://www.aboutgloria.com.nyud.net:8090/eliananddad.jpg http://www.foxnews.com.nyud.net:8090/images/380800/1_61_061608_elian_gonzalez2.jpg
Back home where he belongs.

[ProudDad]

59. Pretty sick shit!

If it weren't for my belief in the 1st Amendment, I'd recommend a nice long jail term for the sick fuck that comes up with "games" like those...

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

67. LOL.

[Creative]

76. Yeah, me too...

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

109. Castro is hated by the right wing here ... does that give you a hint ...

you maybe need to rethink not only Castro --

but your recommendations for violence -- ?

Remember it was right wing political violence which took out not only

JFK but our "people's" government ...

[Creative]

121. Castro is hated by everyone who believes that freedom is superior to slavery.

Just ask these guys...

http://www.cubanball.com/Images/History/RedBall/Defect/Defect.pdf

[Billy Burnett]

128. Haters of freedom?

I'm beginning to think that you are a RW caricature. No one could actually believe some of the things you post. Too ridiculous.


Here's a couple of real haters of freedom ...

[Judi Lynn]

165. It's a dirty, old story, the inexcusable behavior by the Miami hardliners toward Nelson Mandela!

~snip~
There have also been tensions in relations between Cubans and blacks over non-economic matters. The most famous dispute was in 1990 when Miami’s Cuban mayor and other politicians refused to honour Nelson Mandela when he visited, as he’s previously proclaimed his support for Fidel Castro. So powerful are the Cubans in Miami that even as black activists protested black members of the city and county commissions refused to stand up for Mandela. I can’t imagine that happening in any other American city.

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/the_cubans_of_miami/

~~~~~
Penelas apologizes to NAACP for 1990 Mandela snub by Miami

Associated Press
Posted July 14 2003, 11:23 AM EDT

MIAMI -- Miami-Dade County Mayor Alex Penelas apologized Monday to the NAACP for the snubbing former South African President Nelson Mandela received from local officials 13 years ago.

Penelas told 10,000 delegates at the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People's 94th annual convention that he went to Mandela's home two years ago to apologize but that the South African leader was ill and unable to meet with him.

``I sat there to correct the wrong. I hoped to offer then, and I offer now, an apology to Nelson Mandela for the way he was received in Miami,'' Penelas said to a standing ovation.

A three-year black tourism boycott of the Miami area began after some city and county officials refused to welcome Mandela in 1990 when he spoke to a union's national convention at Miami Beach. Local Cuban and Jewish leaders had condemned Mandela's links to Cuban dictator Fidel Castro and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

Penelas is one of five Democrats seeking the U.S. Senate seat of Bob Graham, who is running for president.

More:
http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x11056

~~~~~
~snip~
“Let us not forget given the Cubans special status they were given things no other group in the US was ever given before or after ... There was a wonderful movie made in 68 entitled Popi (starring Alan Arkin) as a Puerto Rican janitor in NY faking his children were Cuban so he could give them a better life ...
Are older Cuban-Americans patriotic: NO ... sorry! At one time Miami had its own foreign policy: Nelson Mandela was not let into Miami because he shook hands with Fidel ... and what about the bridge that was going to be named for that bomber? What about Orlando Bosch (real patriot there) and what about what happened to Emilio Milian?
No, I guess I have not walked in their shoes ... but I wonder if Chicanos, or African Americans or anybody else were given the same gifts the US gave to Cuban refugees ... hmmm ... I for one left Miami because I was getting sick of the right wing hegemony ...
And I hope that someday when and if they can go back to the patria ... I can go home and walk around freely without fear of right wing political nonsense ...”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rIgkiZft38AJ:www.huffingtonpost.com/social/KaAp/charlie-crist-endorsement_n_400722_36866464.html+Miami+Cubans+hate+Nelson+Mandela&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

~~~~~
~snip~
During the 1980s, Mas mobilized against Nicaragua's Sandinista government in the Cuban American community. Oliver North's diary refers to Mas Canosa's secretary, Inés Díaz, and to Jorge Mas next tot a notation for $80,000.
In 1986, CANF sponsored U.S. appearances by Jonas Savimbi, head of the rebel group backed by South Africa and the United States in the Angolan civil war, where Cuban troops were fighting on the side of the government forces and against South African troops who were invading Angola and occupying Namibia.
In April 1990, African National Congress leader Nelson Mandela called Cuba an inspiration and praised its love for human rights and liberty. When Mandela visited Miami two months later, tens of thousands greeted him at an anti-apartheid rally, but local politicians retaliated for his praise of Cuba by refusing any official welcome, leading to a Black-led tourism boycott of Dade County that lasted three years.

More:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/24/113949/572/720/522012

What a delightful culture, South Florida. :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

129. And just coincidentally the right wing "haters" are working to enslave us all...

[Catherina]

114. A game only a freeper could love. n/t

[ChangoLoa]

225. Wow

Year after year, Amerika's getting worse

[JonLP24]

239. I wanted to play that game

Now reading that it focuses on CIA-backed missions in the 1960s, I'm pretty much against it. I can't stand the CIA. Oh well, perhaps it is still a lot of fun which is what matters.

[fascisthunter]

75. lol... ok

[Creative]

80. Your handle belies you.

But that is representative of the doctrine of fascist propaganda.

[fascisthunter]

82. lol... ya ok

[catzies]

160. SHEESH, Is the CANF or somebody paying you per post in this thread?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rug]

3. "now that a competition has emerged in the United States to see who is more of a rightist."

[Ruperto31]

87. That's a great line!

He has put the last 30 years of US politics in a nutshell.

[FarLeftFist]

4. Says the man most envious of America.

[defendandprotect]

10. Says the man America most wanted to kill -- and probably still does ...!!!

[Ruperto31]

88. Is "envious" the right word? "Critical" is more accurate.

[Ikonoklast]

5. Fidel worrying about the poor Japanese.

Crocodile tears from someone that wanted Kruschev to start a nuclear war.

[Judi Lynn]

8. Take some time to study Cuba's history with the U.S. in order to learn some essential facts. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

13. I can say the very same to you.

Castro consider Kruschev a coward after he compromised with Kennedy.

He wanted the war.

A nuclear war.


His people didn't have much to lose.

He was willing to let them be annihalated to assuage his wounded ego.


Fuck Fidel and every dictator like him.

[daleo]

14. Castro wanted to commit suicide to assuage his ego?

That doesn't make sense.

[No Elephants]

45. Maybe one of the 911 terrorists could explain it. Or a WWII kamikaze pilot. Or a suicide

bomber. Or many of the martyrs of the Church.

Not defending (or attacking) Castro here. Just noting that many are happy--or at least willing-- to die for glory.


Anyway, what Castro requested was not necessarily suicidal (in his mind--which is what counts when the subject is suicide).

[daleo]

99. Many western politicians repeated the mantra "better dead than red"

So, by that logic half the leaders of the western world had a death wish.

[Judi Lynn]

29. Please take the time to locate a credible source discussing Fidel Castro's death wish,

and his belief Kruschev was cowardly.

You'd be helping to educate all of us.

Thanks.

[RZM]

33. My memory is a bit hazy

But something on this did come out of the Soviet archives after the collapse. I believe the document in question was talked about here:

http://www.amazon.com/One-Hell-Gamble-Khrushchev-1958-1964/dp/0393317900/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1290926230&sr=8-3-fkmr0

Although it might have been somewhere else (I have the book at the office and I'm not there right now). But I have read about it. From what I remember, it wasn't exactly a death wish, but Castro asking that the Soviets use nuclear weapons in the event of a US invasion, an idea the Soviets quickly threw cold water on.

[Judi Lynn]

38. There has been no effort by US sources to place this crisis in perspective,

and discuss the DIRECT connection between the Bay of Pigs invasion and the Cuban Missile Crisis.

There was a reunion to commemorate the 40th year after the invasion in Havana, in 2001. Participants from the US side, as well as a few officials, including a Kennedy son, met the men who fought back the invaders. The fighters met the men who were shooting at them, and even a couple of Cuban "exile" members of the US "exile" terrorist militia groups attended, even though they were shunned and castigated by Florida Cuban "exiles" when they returned to Florida.

Cuba introduced a group of formerly declassified papers from the time. Discussed at this link:

http://www.gwu.edu.nyud.net:8090/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/bayofpigs.jpg

BAY OF PIGS CONFERENCE POINTS TO MISSED
OPPORTUNITIES FOR DIALOGUE AFTER INVASION FAILED

SECRET RAPPROACHMENT EFFORTS BEGAN IN
NEGOTIATIONS FOR PRISONER RELEASE;
ENDED WITH JFK'S ASSASSINATION
Havana, Cuba: Documents released this afternoon on the second day of an historic meeting of former adversaries in Havana highlight missed opportunities for U.S.-Cuban rapproachment following the failure of the U.S.-sponsored invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs.
Notes on an April 1963 visit to Cuba by attorney James B. Donovan and a memorandum of statements by Fidel Castro from the same trip, record a secret effort to negotiate the release of American prisoners that also helped to initiate a dialogue between bitter adversaries.

The memorandum also summarizes Castro's perceptions during the invasion, which he believed was intended to secure a beachhead from which to launch a provisional government. He was thus determined "to prevent the landing of the provisional government at all costs."

Also released today are documents relating to secret efforts by the Kennedy Administration to begin a dialogue with Castro in the days before his assassination in November 1963. In a February 1964 message to President Johnson, conveyed through ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard, Castro tells the new president "that there are no areas of contention between us that cannot be discussed and settled within a climate of mutual understanding," and expresses hope that Johnson will win the November presidential election and continue with the Kennedy Administration's rapproachment effort.

Another document, a March 1964 memorandum from CIA Director Richard Helms to President Johnson's national security adviser, reports on the alleged secret contacts between President Kennedy and the Castro government in 1963. The source believes that President Johnson was unaware of the secret dialogue "and for this reason is not continuing President Kennedy's policy."

More:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/

~~~~~
Here's commentary from Kennedy's Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, written at the time of the 40th anniversary of the Bay of Pigs, a snippet taken from his article, starting with the message sent by Kruschev to Kennedy:

Everyone needs peace; both capitalists, if they have not lost their reason, and still more, communists.

War is our enemy and a calamity for all people.

If indeed war should break out, then it would not be in our power to stop it, for such is the logic of war. I have participated in two wars and I know that war ends only when it has rolled through cities and villages, everywhere sowing death and destruction.

I should like you to agree that one cannot give way to pressures; it is necessary to control them.

If people do not show wisdom, then in the final analysis they will come to a clash, like blind moles, and then reciprocal extermination will begin.

If you have not lost your self-control, then Mr. President we and you ought not now to pull on the end of a rope in which you have tied the knot of war, because the more the two of us pull, the tighter the knot will be tied. And a moment may come when that knot will be tied so tight that even he who tied it will not have the strength to untie it. And then it will be necessary to cut that knot.

And what that will mean is not for me to explain to you, because you yourself understand perfectly what terrible forces our countries possess. Let us not only relax the forces pulling on the end of the rope; let us take means to untie the knot. We are ready for this.

The message ended with a proposal we could fully accept: if we would guarantee we would not invade Cuba, Khrushchev would remove the missiles from Cuba.

The second message, however, seemed to us at the time to have been drafted by the hard-liners within Khrushchev’s Politburo. Moreover, the message had been given to the press before we received it. This message of Saturday morning, October 27, indicated that the Soviet missiles would remain in Cuba until we withdrew what Khrushchev was now calling our “analogous” Jupiter missiles from Turkey. This greatly complicated the situation, just as time appeared to be running out on making a decision before the missile sites became operational. Turkey, a NATO member, strongly opposed the removal of NATO missiles stationed on its territory, as did many other NATO countries.

More:
http://www.armscontrol.org/print/1144

As you see, a lot is always ommitted in casual, and misinformed discussions of that series of events.

[defendandprotect]

112. Thank you --

Bay of Pigs = Berlin Wall

imo --

:)

[defendandprotect]

111. And maybe it's something that E. Howard Hunt .....

forged while he was in the White House basement --

Castro has rejected violence -- it was the US which threw him into the arms of Russia.


JFK and Kruschev worked together to AVOID the use of nuclear weapons which our

own JOINT CHIEFS were pushing JFK to use -- and presumably Kruschev's equally

hawkish military leaders --

[RZM]

141. So you think that in the WH basement

Hunt forged a document in the Russian language, which he then managed to spirit away to the Soviet archives so it could remain unseen in perpetuity, only unearthed by chance after the unforeseen Soviet collapse? I don't think so.

Why do you find this so hard to believe? Castro knew the Soviets couldn't protect his regime with conventional arms. Nukes were his only hope in the event of a determined US effort to oust him. Staying alive and in power was a central aim of his, as it is for most leaders.

[defendandprotect]

143. Because is has been US/Imperialists who have shown insanity .... not Russians nor Castro....

and if you've listened to that era of tapes from JFK's White House you

note that --

"Nuke 'em La May" -- and who would it be that McCain wouldn't bomb?

[RZM]

167. You're changing the subject here

The Kennedy tapes shed light on decision-making processes and opinions in the US government. They don't say as much about Cuban and Soviet interactions. But Soviet records do -- and there is evidence that Castro wanted the Soviets to use nuclear weapons to protect his regime. You might not like that fact, but it's a fact nonetheless.

[defendandprotect]

176. We'll know what Castro actually did or didn't do when Castro tells us ....

Quite an elevation to call "nuke 'em" a decision-making process ....

we've heard the tapes. And, fortunately, it was JFK in the WH at the time

willing to stand against the crazies.

There are records and there are records --

The record of US violence and warmaking from this gene pool's first steps on this

land -- stealing of the land, genocide vs Native Americans, enslavement of Africans

here -- and century after century of attacks on other countries and the taking over

of their land, wealth and natural resources is quite clear and continues on even now.

We're still in the same gene pool -- and American Imperialism is running rampant!

[RZM]

179. We know it from Soviet sources already

He wanted them to use nuclear weapons in the event of a US invasion of Cuba. And apparently he's since admitted as much. (See post 163 in this thread).

What the US has done over the centuries doesn't have much bearing on whether or not Castro wanted the Soviets to use nuclear weapons to protect his regime. Perhaps it does have some bearing on WHY he did, but not THAT he did.

[defendandprotect]

180. Castro was under threat of a new US attack ... we attacked Cuba, not vice versa ...!!

But as threats of a new invasion faced Castro anew, as the country shook to armed attacks from Cuban exile boats havened in Florida, and as our congressmen clamored for United States unilateral intervention in Cuba, Castro was again forced to beg Russia for more arms, more military instructors, more massive aid -- and, discovered later, missiles. This provoked many of our congressmen to demand an immediate United States Marine attack upon Cuba.

President Kennedy reacted calmly. He insisted that no such intervention would be contemplated so long as the Castro regime did not acquire an "offensive capability." However, after such previous promises had been followed by the Bay of Pips invasion, Castro obviously could not take us at our word. Furthermore, the Voice of America, a propaganda arm of our State Department, immediately broadcast that "the government of the United States threatens no nation and no people," which, as we have seen, is unfortunately false and which implied that it was Cuba that was doing the threatening. And many of our leading statesmen continued to demand an invasion to "stop Cuba's aggressive intentions." Anyone who can claim that tiny Cuba had or has such intentions when our Guantanamo base stares down its throat and when we have made it amply clear that we are anxiously awaiting an excuse to wipe Cuba clear of all Castroites is either insane or a liar. But then lies did get us to invade Cuba once before, in 1898.

In this atmosphere, then, Castro was perfectly justified to ask Russia for missiles, even with nuclear warheads. If you are convinced that your enemy is going to try to kill you, you are going to do your best to kill him too. Cuba will be destroyed by the Yankis, Castro could say, but maybe Cuba can get a shot at Washington too. And so Russian missiles were installed 90 miles from the United States -- to protect Cuba.

The fallacy, of course, was that the missiles were Russian, controlled by Russians and at the service of Russia -- not Cuba. As such, they did represent a threat to us. Objectively, one can point out that Russia was only giving us back some of our own medicine, since we have long pointed missiles at Russia from 35 bases in foreign countries. Nevertheless, Kennedy was perfectly right to denounce this as a breach in the balance of power, even if our definition of "balance" is plenty of United States bases around Russia, no Russian base around the United States.

http://www.ditext.com/gerassi/31.html



And then things got even worse for the elite warmongers and warmakers in America --

JFK and Kruschev alliance brought about DETENTE -- !!

But it was soon ended as the life of JFK was taken by the right wing political assassination --

not only of our president, but in taking our "people's" government.

Less than a year later, Kruschev was moved out --



Again, again trust that someday we'll hear more from Castro on this subject --

because it needs elaboration.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Sorry, I must still suggest you learn more about the subject you claim to understand.

Maybe you'd like to provide a credible reference for your insight that Fidel Castro wanted Russia to bomb the U.S. I've never seen that spin, not anywhere.

Wounded ego? Do you have any information on how his "ego" got "wounded?" Cuba got rid of the bloody, death-squad wielding, torturing, murderous monster, US puppet dictator, Fulgencio Batista,who had been controlling Cuba behind a series of other puppet Presidents since the 1930's, until he seized control in the 1950's.

The entire country rose up against him, with the exception of the worst, dirtiest, most corrupt, vicious political supporters, who fled. Cuba doesn't want them back. Cuba's feelings aren't hurt because they left. They WANTED THEM OUT of Cuba. They were filthy, and they took their filthy, violent ways to Florida, which was designated "America's Terror Capital" by the United States' F.B.I., after a long season of car bombs, shootings, stabbings for political disputes, and internecine rivalries, in Florida, in New York where they murdered a Cuban UN diplomat, and fired a bazooka at the UN, etc., in Latin America as assassins, kidnappers, and terrorists against their native countrymen/women.

Nope, real Cubans just want idiots to leave them alone, keep their filthy violence to themselves, if they can manage it.

He wanted Cubans to be annihilated, to assuage his wounded ego? Not at the time he was ON THE BEACH fighting the Bay of Pigs, standing shoulder to shoulder with other Cubans, or during the years he and his small army which grew over time fought and fought, taking many deaths, savage injuries, captures, and torture by the filthy Batista government. He fought ALONGSIDE other Cubans. They all won the war against the monster.

He also served time in prison under Batista.

http://alexistoledo.psuv.org.ve.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/gallery/noticias-diciembre/fidel-1.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_Dt-NV8-MBmE/SbwqOHWUseI/AAAAAAAAGGU/Qkvw2ZJTUGo/s400/personalidades-governantes-cuba-fidel-castro-raul-castro-camilo-cenfuegos-em-sierra-maestra.jpg http://photos.upi.com.nyud.net:8090/topics-FIDEL-CASTRO-ARCHIVE/0fe717e8955bc2397cfa043d7c4a0290/C_5.jpg

Fighting Batista's government
from the Sierra Maestra

http://1.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_Bmu3oB9vP6c/R7sj8Nm7VII/AAAAAAAAAq4/XuG8eOG-_ww/s400/Fidel+Sierra+Maestra.jpg http://axisoflogic.com.nyud.net:8090/artman/uploads/1/playa-giron-bayofpigs.jpg http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/09UZcDu3bi1Mh/340x.jpg

Fighting at Playa Giron, the "Bay of Pigs."

http://images.artnet.com.nyud.net:8090/artwork_images_169989_305694_albertodiazgutierrez-korda.jpg

"El Quijote de la Farola"

A Havana citizen perched on a lightpole for a better view of the celebration when
people poured into the streets, as the Batista government was officially ended.

[boppers]

163. " Fidel Castro wanted Russia to bomb the U.S...

... I've never seen that spin, not anywhere."

"Castro, on the other hand, was convinced that an invasion was soon at hand, and he dictated a letter to Khrushchev that appeared to call for a preemptive strike on the U.S. However, in a 2010 interview, Castro said of his recommendation for the Soviets to bomb America "After I've seen what I've seen, and knowing what I know now, it wasn't worth it at all."<40> "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis#Crisis_continues

"Cuban leader Fidel Castro urged the Soviet Union to launch a "preemptive strike" against the United States during the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, according to newly available recollections dictated by former Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev.

"Castro suggested that to prevent our nuclear missiles from being destroyed, we should launch a preemptive strike against the United States," Khrushchev recalled. But, he added, after the Soviet Union installed 42 nuclear-armed missiles in Cuba, "My comrades in the leadership and I realized that our friend Fidel totally failed to understand our purpose," that the missiles were supposed to be a deterrent against attack, not to be used against …"

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1149317.html

See also:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9OGHHbLbdAAC&pg=PA228&lpg=PA228&dq=Castro+preemptive+strike&source=bl&ots=dlYlR-D8QI&sig=qcgF_rY_5SVnyiHPTDVsWawtd5M&hl=en&ei=UD70TNPGJ4S8sAP0t62hCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Castro%20preemptive%20strike&f=false

Now you've seen it (from a few sources), along with with Fidel's own retrospective take on it.

[defendandprotect]

178. "But as threats of a new US invasion faced Castro anew" ...

But as threats of a new invasion faced Castro anew, as the country shook to armed attacks from Cuban exile boats havened in Florida, and as our congressmen clamored for United States unilateral intervention in Cuba, Castro was again forced to beg Russia for more arms, more military instructors, more massive aid -- and, discovered later, missiles. This provoked many of our congressmen to demand an immediate United States Marine attack upon Cuba.

President Kennedy reacted calmly. He insisted that no such intervention would be contemplated so long as the Castro regime did not acquire an "offensive capability." However, after such previous promises had been followed by the Bay of Pips invasion, Castro obviously could not take us at our word. Furthermore, the Voice of America, a propaganda arm of our State Department, immediately broadcast that "the government of the United States threatens no nation and no people," which, as we have seen, is unfortunately false and which implied that it was Cuba that was doing the threatening. And many of our leading statesmen continued to demand an invasion to "stop Cuba's aggressive intentions." Anyone who can claim that tiny Cuba had or has such intentions when our Guantanamo base stares down its throat and when we have made it amply clear that we are anxiously awaiting an excuse to wipe Cuba clear of all Castroites is either insane or a liar. But then lies did get us to invade Cuba once before, in 1898.

In this atmosphere, then, Castro was perfectly justified to ask Russia for missiles, even with nuclear warheads. If you are convinced that your enemy is going to try to kill you, you are going to do your best to kill him too. Cuba will be destroyed by the Yankis, Castro could say, but maybe Cuba can get a shot at Washington too. And so Russian missiles were installed 90 miles from the United States -- to protect Cuba.

The fallacy, of course, was that the missiles were Russian, controlled by Russians and at the service of Russia -- not Cuba. As such, they did represent a threat to us. Objectively, one can point out that Russia was only giving us back some of our own medicine, since we have long pointed missiles at Russia from 35 bases in foreign countries. Nevertheless, Kennedy was perfectly right to denounce this as a breach in the balance of power, even if our definition of "balance" is plenty of United States bases around Russia, no Russian base around the United States.

http://www.ditext.com/gerassi/31.html


And then things got even worse for the elite warmongers and warmakers in America --

JFK and Kruschev alliance brought about DETENTE -- !!

But it was soon ended as the life of JFK was taken by the right wing political assassination --

not only of our president, but in taking our "people's" government.

And less than a year after that Kruschev was moved out --

[defendandprotect]

177. And, US was with Castro until Castro made clear he was legitimate....

and not about to become another puppet dictator for American elites --

Then the demonizing began --

[Vadem]

23. Listen to Judi Lynn--she has a lot of knowledge on Cuba!..n/t

[NBachers]

25. Yup

I've come to have a lot of respect for Judi Lynn's grasp of history and events.

Judi Lynn is saturated with credibility. We're lucky to have her here on DU.

[ronnie624]

50. You got that right.

:thumbsup:

[boppers]

187. +1

Judy and I disagree all the time, but the disagreement is more about different perspectives and viewpoints... I learn a lot from her(?).

[defendandprotect]

11. Agree with Castro on the poor state of US kharma ....

United States has a government hated by the most diverse array of people in the world

Not only for Hiroshima and Nagasaki which were unnecessary according to Ike and

many other military and world leaders --

but for our terrorism all over the world --

it's a nation based on theft of property, genocide vs the Native American, slavery --

and now TORTURE and more invasion --

As the United Nations has frequently made clear ... "US is a terrorist nation!"

We certainly are!!

And so frightened still of Castro and all he has done in Cuba that we continue to refuse to

lift the 60 year Embargo --!!

[ProSense]

18. Please

stop trying to make Castro out to be a hero, especially in terms of the UN.

[EFerrari]

28. Oh, please. If it weren't for Castro, Cuba would be Haiti.

We don't need to "make" Castro a hero. Our government already did that.

[ProSense]

48. Oh please

I know what Castro represents for Cuba. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every ridiculous thing that comes out of his mouth.

Do you agree with Cuba's stance at the link in my previous comment?

[EFerrari]

68. Castro is one of the best analysts writing right now.

It's not that every position he takes should be adopted reflexively but that his grasp of the dynamics is probably unparelled by anyone else bothering to write for mass consumption, not to mention, better than most politicians trying to negotiate them.

[defendandprotect]

106. Am always happy to listen to Castro ... one of the rare leaders who have made sense ....

an international intelligence -- and the first to speak out on many issues --

including recognizing the right wing political violence in America immediately.

Very few American politicians I can listen to for very long --

that's for sure!

:)

[defendandprotect]

105. Agree -- and among much other shock and awe, Haiti has been constantly punished

because it freed itself from slavery --

And it has sadly been our government and CIA which have worked to deprive the

citizens of Haiti of their freedom and their own government --

and it's been done by every evil trick in the book!!!

Even now -- in their greatest need!!

:)

[ProudDad]

62. WTF?`

Entirely irrelevant link...

Castro is entirely correct.

The near right-wing Obama will now use the excuse of the republican gains in the last election to increase the Corporate States of Amerika's exploitation of the Earth's resources and accelerate the capitalists work to turn Earth into a dead planet...

So, yes, the guy's more dangerous now...

[Billy Burnett]

63. Seeing as how Cuba is the ONLY nation to achieve WWF sustainability goals ...

... Cubans (as well as Mr Fidel Castro) actually have solid ground to stand on in making this argument.

[ProudDad]

65. Exacly!

I've GOT to get there before the Embargo falls and ADM and Cargil and the IMF and the rest of the alphabet of the Empire get there to fuck up the best experiment to give the Earth a chance to survive...

http://www.globalexchange.org/tours/992.html

http://www.globalexchange.org/tours/1156.html

[defendandprotect]

107. +1000% ... sadly!!

[defendandprotect]

104. First US teaches homophobia .....

and then nations overtaken by "Christianity" -- introducing the cross with the

sword -- are the culprits -- ?

This is the teaching of organized patriarchal religion -- and it's intended to

demonize and weaken any nation or group seeking to acknowledge homosexuality --

Look at how hidden even now homosexuality in the AA community has been -- because

according to the "apple pie" delusions of Americanism it is a weakness to appear feminine!!

Are we now going to demonize the AA community -- or any other community which wants to

avoid a sense of their people being "weakened" by this fake issue?

[Zorro]

19. The US has a government that is so hated

that untold thousands of people risk life and limb to get here by legal and illegal means.

[EFerrari]

27. Right. NAFTA made life impossible in their home countries.

It's that or starve.

[defendandprotect]

113. Mexicans come here for jobs which exploit them ... where are the jobs in Mexico?

Why is Mexico lending us their wealth to cover our debt rather than

creating jobs for their own citizens -- and keeping them from the necessity

to risk life and limb to come here?

[Odin2005]

6. Fidel is completely right.

Too bad the red-baiters have arrived.

[Mika]

91. I'm glad for the red-baiters displaying their feathers here.

Shows how ridiculous and outdated they are.

Cuba is not some deep dark and mysterious place. The whole world interacts with Cuba, and many nationalities of people go to Cuba for vacation, education, cultural and scientific exchange, and on and on.

Except Americans.

Americans are travel banned by the US government for going to see Cuba for themselves.

Hence, we have all of the "experts" here, shoveling out the anti Cuba bullshit without much opposition here (although the small group of Cuba defenders here do so with facts on their side) . Without much opposition because Americans are travel banned by the US government for going to see Cuba for themselves.

We could learn a lot from Cuba. Not from bashing Cubans by extolling Castro as the doer of all things in Cuba. He's not. It is the Cuban people who make Cuba work, and they make it work well.

---

[UpInArms]

7. ...

[Loge23]

12. Now there's an authority!

When Castro finally brings his beloved country into the 20th century, I think we can at least give him the benefit of the doubt.
When Castro's countrymen stop trying to raft to the U.S. on whatever floats, we can say that he's a legitimate leader.
When Castro allows a site like this one in his country (once he gets into the 20th century) we can consider his comments relevant and timely.
Not until then.

[Bucky]

21. Hey, if Castro isn't an authority on riding a crisis into undeserved popularity, who is?

[defendandprotect]

147. And CIA attempts on his life .... 600?

[Judi Lynn]

42. You envision one giant man keeping an entire island hostage, eh?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com.nyud.net:8090/1368/786501493_bccf8c56b1.jpg
What about the OTHER Carribbean people who come by boat to the US often? From whom are THEY fleeing? What about the hoardes of Latin Americans, moving through Mexico, along with Mexican citizens, only to die in the hundreds annually trying to make it across the border, into the United States? From whom are <[i>they "fleeing?"

Are Mexican citizens fleeing from President Felipe Calderon? Wouldn't it stand to reason they also were fleeing from every Mexican President before Calderon?

Haven't you noticed that even the highly submissive corporate media in the US started referring to Cuban immigrants long ago as "immigrants" as opposed to "refugees," and "defectors," and "real scared guys?" :scared: The new immgrants are economic immigrants, not like the First Wave "exiles," crooked Cubans running to escape the wrath of Cubans who hated their guts, after the tables were turned in the Cuban revolution.

Don't you ever take time to think things through, or try to gain more information than you get from cable tv news?

Some people don't seem to be aware of the special problems Cuba has had due to the economic warfare of the US embargo on Cuba, and what effect that has had on their ability to have any internet service at ALL, since they have had NO resources for mass use at all, and will only soon be getting cables laid under the ocean from Venezuela.

You just seem to imagine it's all just as it is here, other than some people are the ones you don't like, for reasons you don't really understand. Why wouldn't you be interested enough to start researching on your own?

No time like the present.

[Loge23]

56. Gee, Judy - thanks for straigtening that out for me!

I'll be home this week, in Miami, if you would like to help me "think things through" a bit.

[Billy Burnett]

64. You live in Miami? Check out the Versailles on Calle Ocho.

You'll fit right in.

[NBachers]

94. I've been there

and it's everything you say it is- great restaurant, though!

[madrchsod]

15. castro has out lived..

ike,jfk,lbj,and nixon,and reagan. living presidents..carter,bush,clinton,bush,and obama. that is ten us presidents.

i think he has the right to his opinion about the usa since the mid 50`s.

[rtassi]

24. +1

[Ruperto31]

98. ...his usefulness. Just kidding. He is a great revolutionary hero.

[Freddie Stubbs]

140. It's easy to stay in power when you don't have free elections and you imprison/exile your opponents

[Ruperto31]

142. Gusano.

[Judi Lynn]

255. You've got that right, Rupert31.

Welcome to D.U.! :hi:

[defendandprotect]

148. Easy to stay in power when you steal elections and use torture ....

we've long had political prisoners here in US --

and we still have Guantanamo --

after netting 140,000 people into our system most likely having nothing to

do with terrorism against US --

See your'e also pushing the privatization of US public education!!

:eyes:

[Ruperto31]

166. Gusanos en la cabeza.

[defendandprotect]

175. bésame el culo

We can run thru insults in every language or you can wake up to the fact

that attempted insults aren't debate --

:eyes:

[Monk06]

20. The US is tapped in terms of military intervention. Like Nazi Germany it the opens

a second front in it's quest to remain militarily dominant
it will bring down the US economy and the world will become
multi-polar. It was already substantially headed in that direction
because of Bush's Iraq/Afghanistan debacle. Under Obama the process
is accelerating due to the tea bagger's stonewalling START. The world
understands now that regardless who runs government the military/industrial
complex and the banksters are fully in charge.

[EFerrari]

30. The world has known that for a long time. It's only a surprise to Americans. n/t

[Monk06]

34. I think the peak for US military power was the invasion of Grenada and Panama, where they thumbed

their nose at the world and invaded two countries just because
the Republicans felt like it. Iraq turned the attention of the
US military oligarchy from the Caribbean and Central America.

They crossed the Rubicon in Iraq and now they are knee deep in
the middle east and can't get out. I think the impotence of the
US military is just becoming a part of the general strategic
understanding of the post 2000 world.

[defendandprotect]

149. There is no MIC without the ME and its oil .....

they're talking planes run on solar but the reality is right now

oil is a "national security" issue and they use 80% of our oil.


Grenada and Panama -- two of our proudest moments --

and then on to Iraq to break the "Vietnam syndrome in America" --

their miliary was comparable to the LAPD -- and then we continued to

bomb them for 20 years before attacking and invading them again!

And Mc Cain is still looking to "bomb, bomb, bomb" Iran --

while Joe Biden is encouraging Israel to attack/bomb Iran --

"they'd be justified to do so," Biden says!!

And our hope for the future was with Obama and his administration????


:eyes:

[unkachuck]

22. "...Obama is more dangerous now that a competition has emerged..."

....Fidel is right and we're dealing with forces greater than Obama that must be served....

....two years ago, who would have thought that a black progressive street-organizer from Chicago would become president and evolve into a pragmatic conservative?....it would as if palin became president and governed like Bernie Sanders....(of course, that trick never works in our direction)

....the U.S. Presidency Incorporated is much more powerful and unpredictable than any given president....

[avaistheone1]

35. +1

[No Elephants]

46. Respectfully, I don't think we can know for certain how "progressive" Obama ever was or wasn't.

Or how many true "street" organizers sit on boards of very well funded not for profits.


And that is even without addressing the issue of whether "progressive" has any meaning to begin with. (Marshall, a DLC founder AND a signatory of the PNAC memo, went on to head the Progressive Policy Institute. So, I, for one, am stumped as to what, if anything "progressive" really means, in the context of politics.)

[ronnie624]

52. If the DLC is using the word 'progressive',

you can bet it's an attempt to own and redefine it. There is absolutely nothing progressive about the leadership and policies of the modern Democratic party.

[defendandprotect]

150. Not only are we after Iran... but note VP Joe Biden encouraging Israel to attack Iran .....

"they'd be justified," he's said!!

One way or another it looks like McCain will get his wish --

"bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" --

[No Elephants]

47. So, about half who've posted on this thread so far dump on Castro for saying that a competition to

appear more politically right is dangerous?

[Lorien]

53. It's never about the message here, only the messenger

especially when the message makes them uncomfortable.

[Ruperto31]

146. Verily, amen.

[defendandprotect]

151. +1000% .... exactly --

[Billy Burnett]

51. A fair amount of pent-up denial based anti Cuba hostility here.

Just to clear things up ...

USA = Mom, apple pie, peace, freedom, and all things good
Cuba = Bad commies

Obama = :shrug:
Castro = Chief bad commie





Families holding pictures of Cubans killed by US terrorism

[Catherina]

117. +1 Great picture. n/t

[Ruperto31]

152. Delete by poster.

[Ruperto31]

153. Lots of Hubert Humphrey type anti-communist liberals in this thread.

[defendandprotect]

154. We're still after Iran -- and Joe Biden continues to encourage Israel to attack Iran ...!!!

And Obama and administration were our best hope for peace!!! ???

And we're still occupying Afghanistan and Iraq!!!

[ProudDad]

57. Absolutely true...

Obama is a true-blue, corporate capitalist...

As such, his slide to the right is inevitable (and not much of a stretch for him)...

So for those of us who would prefer to see humans become more humane and help restore a sustainable, habitable planet, he's way more dangerous...

[Billy Burnett]

61. Mr Obama just landed the 6th largest military armament sale in world history w/India.

What else does America manufacture that India wants? Nada.

The impoverished world is awash in weapons. Not dangerous. :eyes:


Meanwhile, Cuba has just sent 1000 more health care specialists to Haiti to help ameliorate the cholera outbreak there.


Viva Cuba!

Abajo the US's "Cuba Transition Plan" designed in Miami!

[ProudDad]

66. Not to mention jets to Indonesia and the Saudis

The Empire in action...

[EFerrari]

69. Yes, we've re-armed the "special forces" in Indonesia and their special death squads.

How special.

[defendandprotect]

155. America ... weapons dealer to the world ....

In fact, they say that American and Israel weapons production are so closely

interetwined that you can barely tell the difference between them --

[defendandprotect]

156. Obama ... our hope for change ... what a sad joke on Democratic voters ....

[harun]

73. Castro delivered Universal Health Care. Obama can't even close Gitmo.

[Mika]

74. No. Castro didn't do it. The Cuban people did it!

Fidel Castro was an excellent figurehead for the Revolution. He's retired now.

Forget the knee jerk cold war reactionaries here.... If one wants to discuss the Cuban health care system then one has to explore and recognize the hard work of the Cuban doctors, nurses, auxiliaries, lab tech, etc, etc. If one wants to discuss the world class cuban education system, then one must explore and recognize the hard work of Cuban educators. It is that straight forward. Castro didn't do it. The Cuban people did it.

Fidel Castro was an excellent figurehead for the Revolution. He's retired now.

---

[Creative]

81. Yes sir e Bob--Universal Health Care with no MRIs, no CT scans, no CAT scans and no life saving

drugs.

In fact, Cuba has Universal Health Care without health care.

[rug]

84. Better than health insurance without health care.

[Mika]

89. None of it true.

Pay no attention to the "expert" Cuba detractors here. They've never set foot on the island to see for themselves, and know nothing about the place (other than the usual RW memes).

Cuba has an excellent health care system.

Been there. Seen it.

---

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

116. US is ranked way below Cuba in health care ... give that some thought ...!!

[Catherina]

118. Where do you get your information? Sad. n/t

[fascisthunter]

122. you don't know anything except for the lies fed to you

hell, you don't even know the difference between fascism and comunism... you are embarrassing yourself kid, and there is nothing creative about the way you spew this crap.

[Judi Lynn]

123. They can't distinguish the difference. According to them, all the US "enemies" have been leftists.

When the right started up with this bright idea around 2000, I thought the one I heard it from first was wildly brain-damaged, or critically senile. He was a Miami resident who gave links to Capitalism Magazine for his memorable posts. It was astonishing to see that same gibberish showing up randomly from visitors to D.U.

Now, years later, we see the signs claiming President Obama is a fascist. I think they've been P.O.'d because Americans viewed _{George W. Bush} and his entourage as fascists, which they ARE. Too stupid not to realize that when a Democrat is elected, you don't just turn around and start claiming he, too, is a fascist, to get even!

So they end up trying to blame WWII, the concentration camps, etc. on the left. How can anyone be that slow?

[fascisthunter]

125. I think you are right

[Creative]

124. I know enough to know that there isn't much difference between fascism and communism.

They are not opposites; rather, they are just flip sides of the same evil coin. Mussolini, the father of fascism was a socialist and NAZI is the acronym for National Socialist Party.

The important thing to note is that a free society is not possible under either system. That is why people living under them risk their lives trying to escape. And it is no coincidence that many of the escapees come to the freest nation on earth.

Thus, it is you who is embarrassing yourself. For you either have no idea what you are talking about or you are deliberately spreading propaganda regarding Cuba, a fascist/communist or whatever, slave state.

The problem for you is that there are too people in this world (including Cuba) who know the truth and they are laughing at you.

[fascisthunter]

126. my gawd you are so thoroughly misinformed

The Nazis infiltrated the Socialist Party to get into power, not because he was a socialist because it was a means to his end. Get educated and stop listening to so much right wing propaganda... you fools are spreading lies, which further destroys this country... you really don't care do you? Just as long as the left is destroyed. Tell me one fucking thing the right wing has done for this country and the World??????

I'd worry more about the right wing than your left wing boogeymen...

BTW - the Nazis were right wing not Left Wing...

[Creative]

127. The only labels I'm concerned about are freedom and slavery.

Questions--

Why is necessary for talented people (like baseball players) to defect? Why aren't they simply allowed to freely leave Cuba to pursue their dreams?

http://www.cubanball.com/Images/History/RedBall/Defect/Defect.pdf

[Quantess]

131. And I'm wondering why US citizens are forbidden to enter Cuba

still.

[Creative]

136. They can, but they have to be careful.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

[fascisthunter]

132. when you feel like discussing the OP do so

I'm not interested in your distractions to illegitimize what Castro has said. As you should know if you are an adult, truth is truth regardless of where it comes from.

[Creative]

134. Actually, you are not interested in answering the questions because

to do so would demonstrate folly of your argument.

The correct answer is: Because Cuba is (according to Obama's State Dept.):

April 29, 2010

COUNTRY DESCRIPTION: Cuba is a totalitarian police state which relies on repressive methods to maintain control. These methods include intense physical and electronic surveillance of both Cuban citizens and foreign visitors. Americans visiting Cuba should be aware that any on-island activities could be subject to surveillance, and their contacts with Cuban citizens monitored closely.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

[ProudDad]

172. You use a propaganda piece

written by and for the Corporate States of Amerika...

to counter the truth about Cuba...

How pitiful... :eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

189. Same entity which has invaded, and conducted acts of terrorism against the country

from the first.

Same country which funds the hired "dissidents."

[Judi Lynn]

133. Free to leave like Cuban ballet stars, like Carlos Acosta, as one example?

http://img.dailymail.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/i/pix/2007/10_03/CarlosAcosta_468x410.jpg http://www.ballet.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/albums/jr_bolshoi_spartacus_coliseum_0807/jr_spartacus_acosta_split_500_90.jpg

http://i.telegraph.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01181/arts-graphics-2007_1181774a.jpg http://blogs.guardian.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/culturevulture/archives/carlosacostakentonblog.jpg http://static.guim.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2009/1/19/1232360180684/Carlos-Acosta-and-Tamara--001.jpg
Monday 13 July 2009
Arts and diplomacy: who gains when the Royal Ballet goes to Cuba?

The fact that the Royal Ballet is to perform in Cuba is no surprise. Sadler's Wells has hosted the wonderful Cuban National Ballet a clutch of times over the past few years, and Royal Ballet star Carlos Acosta is a powerful advocate for Cuba despite, or perhaps because of, his having left his homeland for a London career. His life-story – dramatised in a dance work, even – is presented as the textbook fairytale narrative of the poor lad playing on the street picked out for his sheer talent and groomed for greatness by an enlightened regime. It is an incredibly powerful story and does no harm to the Castro regime at all.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/charlottehigginsblog+stage/royal-ballet

[Creative]

135. Castro, no doubt, has something on him.

Perhaps his family is jeopardy.

What about these other 197 people?

http://www.cubanball.com/Images/History/RedBall/Defect/Defect.pdf

[Judi Lynn]

139. Oh, sure! I'll bet THAT'S the answer. Why didn't I think of that?

I know baseball players go to the U.S. from ALL the Caribbean islands. Why doesn't some idiot in the U.S. claim they are "defecting?"

By the way, a lot of people know about Miami clown, former baseball agent, Joe Cubas, a creepy little dirty toad who used to follow the Cuban Olympic baseball team around the world, take the players out to dinner, get them drunk, make deals with them, and bring them to the U.S.

At some point, the players didn't like the fact he was ripping them off here, and they sued his portly ass, and he has been banned from baseball. Say hello to Joe Cubas, REAL ESTATE SALESMAN. But he's a big hero in Miami because he managed to steal those players from Cuba! Whoooooooo!

http://www.pbs.org.nyud.net:8090/stealinghome/_/debate_cubas.jpg

Cubas

[fascisthunter]

138. darn

[defendandprotect]

157. Corporatism = fascism which is where America is right now ....

As for communism, it might help you to understand that when J. Edgar Hoover spoke of

USSR/communism, he called it "totalitarian communism" -- as many others did.

That's because it was a dictatorship -- obvious to all.

And not anything to do with communism, itself.


It might also help you to understand that there was an original NAZI party which was

actually socialist ... i.e., meaning it was for human rights, equality for women --

reproductive freedom -- abortion -- social services -- and supported the full range of

social concerns -- UNIONS -- universal health care.

THAT NAZI party was taken over by Hitler and everything was reversed ---


Socialism is respected throughout the world --

Nations which have universal health care support socialist concepts -- even though

they may also be using an economic system based on capitalism.


We've all grown up a lot since those cliche arguments you are usuing now were introduced.

Most people are fleeing the victimization of American foreign policy in their countries.

And America has a growing OUT-MIGRATION of its citizens ....

[Creative]

161. Fascism is when the government controls private enterprise without implementing

the socialist doctrine of "government ownership of the means of production" being implemented.

The effect is the same, for the government is in total control under both systems.

You can call them whatever you want to call them. I choose to see them for what they are. (Slavery)


"Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.<16> They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism.<16> Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[defendandprotect]

169. Corporatism is the fascist system by which corporations are replacing sovereign governments....

not only here in America, but all over the world.

[Creative]

192. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Corporatism is not fascism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Corporatism, also known as corporativism, is a system of economic, political, or social organization that views a community as a body based upon organic social solidarity and functional distinction and roles amongst individuals.<1><2> The term corporatism is based on the Latin word "corpus" meaning "body".<2> Formal corporatist models are based upon the contract of corporate groups, such as agricultural, business, ethnic, labour, military, patronage, scientific, or religious affiliations, into a collective body.

[defendandprotect]

197. "Corporatism: describes politics dominated by interests of corporations"....

You are missing part of that Wiki quote ...

In contemporary usage, "corporatism" is often used as a term to describe politics

dominated by the interests of business corporations

(Corporatocracy).



And many others support the concept of corporatism as fascism ...

Chomsky's Nightmare: Is Fascism Coming to America? | The ...
Chomsky's Nightmare: Is Fascism Coming to America? ... Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a ...
progressive.org/node/141900/8737 - Cached


Noam Chomsky Has ‘Never Seen Anything Like This’ | War Is ...
Noam Chomsky Has ‘Never Seen Anything Like This’ Submitted by Chip on Mon, 2010-04-19 15:48. Corporatism and Fascism; Economy; Wall Street
warisacrime.org/node/51585 - Cached


Kasia Anderson: The Truthdig Interview With Naomi Klein ...
What people like Naomi Klein, and the older Milton Friedman call capitalism is actually a tightly-regulated system of state corporatism. There is no more capitalism.
www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080626_​naomi_klein_on_the... - Cached


Chris Hedges: Do Not Pity the Democrats - Chris Hedges ...
“‘The corporate state is the ultimate maturation of American-type fascism,’ Nader said. ... same point, asserting, “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism ...
www.truthdig.com/report/item/do_not_​pity_the_democrats... - Cached

Do Not Pity the Democrats | COTO Report
“The corporate state is the ultimate maturation of American-type fascism,” Nader said. ... This entry was posted in Elections, Psy-Ops, Resistance and tagged corporatism, No ...
coto2.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/do-not-​pity-the-democrats - Cached


t r u t h o u t | Do Not Pity the Democrats
“The corporate state is the ultimate maturation of American-type fascism,” Nader said. ... Mussolini himself said the word "corporatism" was actually a better word than ...
www.truth-out.org/do-not-pity-​democrats63204?print - Cached




And how much more of capitalism's corruption and crimes do Americans want inflicted

on them? Topped off with our paying for the corruption and crimes!

[Judi Lynn]

199. Thanks so much for having the patience to spell it out to help someone who can't grasp it.

It's always startling when someone shows up claiming these two are actually similar. Unbearable!

Great post.

[defendandprotect]

207. There is really much more info on corporatism as fascism ... it begins in northern Italy....

and I have much more info on it -- some in my journal --

I have to actually start a thread on it one day --



Patriarchy -- and it's underpinning =

Organized patriarchal religion - and its economic system =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity



:)

[Creative]

202. There is no citation for that definition. In all likelihood it was placed there

by someone like you who makes it up as they go along. But that is to be expected, for that is what propagandists do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed

"To ensure that all Wikipedia content is verifiable, anyone may question an uncited claim by inserting a {{Citation needed}} tag."

[Judi Lynn]

203. The poster has provided OTHER links for your use. Why not attempt to learn something? n/t

[Creative]

216. Oh, I read them--the problem is, there is nothing to be learned from them.

Does capitalism have its problems? Sure, I already know that. However, those problems stem from the imperfection of human beings. Most of us are good, but unfortunately, some of us are dishonest and corrupt.

The problem with fascism/communism is that the totalitarian nature of these types of systems make it more difficult to root out the bad guys, for those in charge allow no dissent.

On the other hand, the fundamental nature of capitalism is the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, which affords the good a greater opportunity to overcome the evil. It's all about voluntary associations and there is no way you are going to convince anyone of sound mind that relationships based on coercion and force are superior to those that are voluntary.

[Judi Lynn]

218. So the revolution Cuba had to gain it's freedom from greedy, violent, corrupt maggots

isn't as moral as the American revolution to gain freedom from greedy, violent, corrupt maggots?

My, my. Who would have guessed.

[Creative]

220. Not when you replace one group of greedy, violent, corrupt maggots with another.

[Judi Lynn]

222. Where are the modern death squads, Creative? Where is the heavy Mafia corruption?

Why is Havana no longer called "The Whorehouse of the Caribbean" all over the world, as it was during the good old pre-revolution days?

Do you need to be reminded of days like this, when the mothers, whose sons had been arrested by Batista's forces, tortured, then murdered, and thrown out into fields, or hung from trees, sometimes cut into pieces, or from lamp poles, got together and marched in a parade through Santiago de Cuba, going to implore the US ambassador, Earl Smith, begging him to intercede with Fulgencio Batista to spare the men of Cuba, only to have the Cuban police turn the fire hoses on them?

http://www.historyofcuba.com.nyud.net:8090/images/batista3.jpg

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/cuban-rebels/protest.gif

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/cuban-rebels/revolutionaries-15.gif

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/cuban-rebels/protest-2.gif

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/cuban-rebels/protest-1.gif

[Mika]

227. Thanks for pointing out the reality of the Cuban Revolution.

---

[Judi Lynn]

232. Interesting photos! They conceal the secret some hardliner "exiles" claim lies behind

all those smiles visitors to Cuba see: they are really scared not to appear happy about their lives, because if they don't, they will be hauled off and thrown in jail or something!

I started doubting I was getting the straight story from these congenital liars when I discovered they had been accustomed to traveling back to Cuba for vacations, to see relatives, friends, etc.

THAT'S when I knew I had to start looking for the truth, and in a hurry! You hate to be played for a fool so MANY years. You knew differently from the first because of where you live, but those of us outside the state have been TOTALLY ignorant of the truth. We've been flim-flammed!

I love to see Cuban photos. That's all most of us have until the mighty US government starts letting ordinary US citizens travel that 90 miles to the scary ISLAND OF COMMIE DOOM!!!!!

[Creative]

229. You will not find me in disagreement with what you say.

However, after after American gained her independence, many wanted to make George Washington the king, but he would have none of it.

On the other hand, after the Cuban revolution, the Cuban people did not really win their freedom, for Castro made himself dictator for life.

http://www.shalaw.com/Articles/PortraitOfAPatriot.htm

[Judi Lynn]

231. As far as I've ever heard, England did not continue to invade the U.S.after the war,

nor did it continue to allow murderous raids, assassinations, bombings, kidnappings, destruction of crops, livestock, planting of biological warfare materials within the country, as testified to in his murder trial by former CIA, Cuban asshole "exile" Eduardo Arocena after he murdered Cuban diplomat to the U.N., Felix Garcia Rodriguez in his car at a stop light in NYC. Nor did England send mercenaries all over the world to conduct acts of terrorism against US citizens, or countries connected to the US. Nor did England conduct a 50 year long and counting economic brutal war on the US, attempting to make life so painful the citizens would overthrow their leaders just to get the pain to stop.

There is a SLIGHT difference between the two countries, and the circumstances facing George Washington's culture, and the Cuban people after they threw out by deepest desire the absolute racist, dirty, violent, murderous, torture-loving, death-squad using, "entitled" assholes of the Cuban elite ruling class who even looked down upon the US puppet butcher Fulgencio Batista.

[Judi Lynn]

233. Adding a list of a few of the thoughtful gifts shared with Cuba after the revolution:

History of Plagues
Biological war waged by the US against Cuba

--1962 A US intelligence agent is known to have given several thousand dollars to a Canadian to introduce a disease infecting Cuban sea-turtles.

--1965 A plastic balloon descends on a farm in Santiago de las Vegas. When it hits the ground it expels a white dust that spreads to cane plantation which is later destroyed.

--1968 A foreign specialist working for an international agency is expelled after he is confirmed to have introduced a virus affecting coffee crops.

--1970 The US is caught seeding clouds over Cuba in an attempt to affect the sugar harvest. The project was part of a larger research plan called "The Cooling" which was intended to devise ways of manipulating the weather for political reasons.

--1971 African swine fever is introduced. The Cubans claim that the container transporting the virus came from Fort Gullick, a US military base in the Panama Canal Zone. Those involved in this attack have since testified to their part. The entire pig population of Cuba had to be slaughtered.

--1977 Cane smut is detected in Pilón, eastern Cuba. The disease had never been known in Cuba until this date.

--1978: A previously unknown variety Blue mould hits the sugar crops causing losses of approximately 344 million pesos.

--1978: Sugar cane rust affects a new variety of cane imported from Barbados. As a result 1.35 million tonnes of sugar are lost.

--1979-80 Two different strains of African swine fever are discovered emanating from distinct areas of contamination. 300,00 pigs are slaughtered.

--1981 A previously unknown Bovine skin disease erupts affecting young cows and bullocks throughout the island.

--1981 A sudden outbreak of haemorrhagic dengue fever affects 350,000 people. 158 people, including children, die from the disease. The disease is later discovered to be exactly the same strain of the disease which caused an outbreak in New Guinea in 1924 but no others in the world except the Cuban case. The outbreak had three initial breeding grounds in Cienfuegos and Camagüey, all very close to international air corridors. Just prior to the outbreak it was discovered that the entire personnel at the Guantanamo naval base had been vaccinated against dengue. As a result there was not a single case of the disease in the base.

More:
http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-January/Bio.html

[Creative]

237. Oh,really...? Didn't you ever learn about the War of 1812?

[defendandprotect]

208. There is as yet no citation .... however, it is the most meaningful part of the quote ... !!

Corporatism, also known as corporativism, is a system of economic, political, or social organization that views a community as a body based upon organic social solidarity and functional distinction and roles amongst individuals.<1><2> The term corporatism is based on the Latin word "corpus" meaning "body".<2> Formal corporatist models are based upon the contract of corporate groups, such as agricultural, business, ethnic, labour, military, patronage, scientific, or religious affiliations, into a collective body.<3> In contemporary usage, "corporatism" is often used as a term to describe politics dominated by the interests of business corporations (Corporatocracy).


Corporatocracy, Corporatism, Fascism
"Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini This is indeed a ...
www.rense.com/general62/​corporatocracy.htm - Cached

As I've said elsewhere, there's much more information on this --

[defendandprotect]

209. And ... here's a bit more ....

Firstly, "fascism" is a specific 20th century refinement of despotism and a subgroup thereof. The "ideal type" of fascism, in Weberian terms, is Italian.
The antecedents of fascism are in Catholic corporatism
and much of the ideological thrust is contained in the Futurist Manifesto, which calls for "action" at the expense of reason. Mussolini lays out the fascist vision in "The Corporate State."



http://www.thesocialistparty.org/spo/archi...



AND . . .

Ralph Nader explains Corporatism and its result 4/4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SbW1G_HA_w



There are other articles still on this -- one from the WSJ, as I recall --

If I can find it, I'll post it for you --

[Creative]

238. Well then, you can "invent" it.

[StarsInHerHair]

204. you just copied & pasted the def. of fascism & if fits your leaders

well, this is what the GOP says when advertising themselves. "requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong"



to "creative" gop patsy

[Judi Lynn]

205. Merriam Webster definition:

Definition of CORPORATISM
: the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corporatism

~~~~~
Thesaurus, corporatism - control of a state or organization by large interest groups; "individualism is in danger of being swamped by a kind of corporatism"
control - power to direct or determine; "under control"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/corporatism

~~~~~corporatism(cor|por¦at|ism)
Entry from World dictionary

the control of a state or organization by large interest groups.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/corporatism

~~~~~
Yavin4

Conservatism, By Definition, Is Always Dying, But Corporatism Is Alive and Well
Stopping progress is like holding back the ocean with a broom. Conservatism is rooted in the false belief that yesterday is superior to today. It's really nothing more than nostalgia. Pat Buchannan is the true voice of conservatism in that he believes that if we elect the right people and enact the right policies, then we can go back to the 1950s.

But what conservatives, and liberals for that matter, don't seem to understand is that corporatism, the ideology that all public policies should be for the benefit of large corporations, is the true ascendant power in our democracy. It has no party identification. On health care, it will side with the conservatives. On immigration, it will side with the progressives. It will bounce from issue to issue, from allegiance to allegiance, all based on what's better for the corporate bottom line.

No matter who is elected to office, corporatism will always, always win in the end.

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=363727&mesg_id=363818

~~~~~
Corporatism
Michael A. Rizzotti

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.

James Madison

Many articles have been written about the growing similarities between the rise of Italian fascism ─corporatismo─ and the current US ideological swing to the right. We propose some additional observations about the prevailing corporatist ideology and its hold on Washington DC. Noting some continental differences between the political exaltation of Italian politics and the white Anglo corporatist claim to a global Imperium.

http://netage.org/2010/03/01/corporatism/
~~~~~ETC.

[defendandprotect]

210. Simplest response is the best ---

Picking up to add to my Journal -- thanks!



Merriam Webster definition:
Definition of CORPORATISM
: the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corporatism


~~~~~

Thesaurus, corporatism - control of a state or organization by large interest groups; "individualism is in danger of being swamped by a kind of corporatism"
control - power to direct or determine; "under control"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/corporatism


~~~~~
corporatism(cor|por¦at|ism)
Entry from World dictionary

the control of a state or organization by large interest groups.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/corporatism


~~~~~

Yavin4

Conservatism, By Definition, Is Always Dying, But Corporatism Is Alive and Well
Stopping progress is like holding back the ocean with a broom. Conservatism is rooted in the false belief that yesterday is superior to today. It's really nothing more than nostalgia. Pat Buchannan is the true voice of conservatism in that he believes that if we elect the right people and enact the right policies, then we can go back to the 1950s.

But what conservatives, and liberals for that matter, don't seem to understand is that corporatism, the ideology that all public policies should be for the benefit of large corporations, is the true ascendant power in our democracy. It has no party identification. On health care, it will side with the conservatives. On immigration, it will side with the progressives. It will bounce from issue to issue, from allegiance to allegiance, all based on what's better for the corporate bottom line.

No matter who is elected to office, corporatism will always, always win in the end.

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/dubo...


~~~~~

Corporatism
Michael A. Rizzotti
Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.
James Madison

Many articles have been written about the growing similarities between the rise of Italian fascism ─corporatismo─ and the current US ideological swing to the right. We propose some additional observations about the prevailing corporatist ideology and its hold on Washington DC. Noting some continental differences between the political exaltation of Italian politics and the white Anglo corporatist claim to a global Imperium.

http://netage.org/2010/03/01/corporatism /

~~~~~
ETC.

[ProudDad]

171. They get better outcomes than the USAmerican for-profit Sick Care system

They practice holistic medicine...

Instead of ration high-dollar sick care to the highest bidders...

They live longer...

For DAMN SURE they're generally happier...

You should study up and quit displaying your ignorance of how things really work in other countries...

[Creative]

194. Well then, why do you make your home here (assumption) in the US, Proud Dad?

If I thought that Utopia was only 90 miles off the coast of Florida, I'd be there.

BTW: Life expectancy in Cuba is 78.7; in the US, it is 78.4. As for me, I'd rather live free and die a couple of months earlier than to have never have experienced life without the freedom to pursue some of the things that might kill me.

[defendandprotect]

211. America ... "love it or leave it" ... ?

I'm sure everyone who hasn't jumped up and left only does so because they

love it -- !!

Sometimes it simply too complicated to even consider where you could go that

you don't become another victim of US foreign policy!!

Many American would like to leave -- and many have left and are leaving -- we

have increasing numbers of Americans moving out.

[Creative]

221. Actually, no matter how bad things get, a Real-American will stay and

try to make things better.

[Mika]

228. And a REAL Cuban is to be found in Cuba, making things better.

No matter how the US increases the sanctions, that are specifically targeted at crippling Cuba's economy, the Cuban people work together to build their common infrastructure in order to achieve world class stats in all social indices for all Cubans.

The mewling RW exiles in Miami are not REAL Cubans. They are anti Cuba ex-Cubans.

---

[Creative]

230. It is true, despite the thuggish nature of the Cuban regime, many Cubans

have worked to make Cuba a more free nation.

Unfortunately, most of them ended up becoming political prisoners, or in other ways, captives of the state.

[ProudDad]

234. Because I'm too old and don't speak Spanish well enough...

I'd move there in a shot if I thought I could be useful to the Revolution...

See, since I'm a Socialist, I'd fit right in with Cuban Democracy...

And if you think you're free, you're deluded...

Just go to the nearest airport...

[Judi Lynn]

236. I never cease to wonder at people who suggest progressives leave their own homelands

when right-wing perverts are abusing power in government.

The ones who should leave are the right-wing criminals ruining the country.

Too wierd for words. They're all that way, as far as I can tell.

[Creative]

240. Cuban Democracy--you are beyond delusional. There hasn't been a real election in Cuba since 1940.

And it is abundantly clear that you of the socialist/communist/fascist persuasion. For you do not understand the concept of human rights.

"To be a socialist," said Goebbels, "is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole."

[ProudDad]

241. YOU QUOTE FUCKING GOEBBELS!!!!

Amazing!!!

It's abundantly clear that you don't know the difference between "Socialism", "Communism" or "Fascism" (or understand USAmerican style Vampire Capitalism either)...

“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”
Mark Twain...

[Judi Lynn]

245. So damned depressing. Goebbels. World's Foremost Authority!

http://midfield.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2010/08/goebbels-y-hitler.jpg
Makes so much sense, doesn't it?

[ProudDad]

246. Read this post QUICK, Judi Lynn

I think I'm out of here (DU) again...

I'll probably miss your great spirit and wonderful information the most...

My thread about "Inside Job" and the Obama economic team was locked because I let a "slick willie" out (gee, I guess that means this one will be locked too)...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x542663

---------------------------------------------------

<Censored by Author now that you've seen it and it would probably get me tombstoned :evilgrin:>

-----------------------------------------------

Such small-minded thin-skinned bullshit is just too much for me...

[Judi Lynn]

248. Thanks for the link to the other thread, Proud Dad. So glad I got the chance to see it.

I'm stunned to see the end of the thread, and hope like hell a mistake was made in scanning the material instead of really focusing on it. There's nothing right-wing about you or your sensibilities. You're very, VERY focused, sane, well-balanced.

Your presence would leave a tremendous vacuum here no one else could fill. It will never be right if you left. Many of us will be watching this carefully.

Thanks for the link to the thread, you did people a service there with your comments. We're watching.

[ProudDad]

249. Thanks, Judi...

:hi:

I edited my post now that you've seen it so I wouldn't get tombstoned...

Leave my options open...

But I DO have a lot to do and there've been WAY too many mornings (like today) shot to hell trying to cast pearls before swine...

I must ration my attendance in the future...

[Judi Lynn]

250. You've articulated that experience so well..... Easy to recognize, identify.

There's no doubt whatsoever which people we would want to stay if there were ever a question, we'd want intelligent, evolved democrats, progressives. Don't give up your place among people who respect and always appreciate you, to someone who simply comes to gibber, yammer, obfuscate, cop attitudes, red-bait.

Glad you live on, no question about this.

[Creative]

252. Goebbels was the world's foremost minister of socialist propaganda.

He knew very well how to sell it.

[Judi Lynn]

254. Foremost minister of "socialist" propaganda. Make that NAZI propaganda.

The right-wing has been trying for over a decade to push that crap on ignorant, or young US citizens.

It's a lie, you know it, we know it, and it speaks volumes about the total lack of character among right-wing propagandists.
They will try anything.

You'll get NOWHERE here with that.

[Creative]

256. Actually, it's Nationalist Socialist propaganda if you want to be precise.

As I previously stated, fascism, socialism and communism are all the same in that human rights do not exist within the realm of any of their variants.

[ProudDad]

242. Methinks I spy

a troll...

[Judi Lynn]

251. Sometimes they stick out like sore thumbs.

http://users.skynet.be.nyud.net:8090/fa023784/trollmoon/TrollArtistsBlog/files/page20_blog_entry11_2.jpg

[ProudDad]

235. Here's your fucking freedom!

http://www.alternet.org/story/149059/here_come_homeland_security_internet_police%2C_and_they%27re_already_shutting_down_web_sites_they_don%27t_like

[TBF]

93. As usual Fidel is correct. nt

[Catherina]

130. No shit Sherlock. Thank you. n/t

[Ter]

137. Who cares what a Communist thinks?

Go away for good, Fidel.

[fascisthunter]

145. that's right, cover your ears and eyes out of political prejudice

duh

[Ter]

181. Would you close your ears is Pinochet said it if he were still alive?

I'm consistent, neither is better or worse than the other.

[defendandprotect]

159. As you can see ... many of us do care what Castro thinks ... and sadly

many of us think he's correct -- !!!

[Demstud]

183. +1 -nt

[defendandprotect]

158. Wonder if Castro knew before we did that Obama would bring not change but more of the same--!!??

[Creative]

162. Judging from the state of Cuba, Castro doesn't know very much at all.

Government

Type: Totalitarian communist state; current government assumed power by force on January 1, 1959.
Independence: May 20, 1902.

Political party: Cuban Communist Party (PCC); only one party allowed.

Average monthly salary: $18.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2886.htm

[defendandprotect]

168. Castro understood the treachery of our government long before we woke up....

We have only one party here -- it's simply a different kind of totalitarianism --

right now.

[ProudDad]

174. Ah, more bullshit National Security State(tm) propaganda

the self-fulfilling prophecy...

Fail! :eyes:

I've been there and there's more grassroots decentralized Democracy in that little island than there is in the whole damned Corporate States of America...

So you can spout the labels the Empire places on the people they most fear but that don't make them true or even descriptive...

[dipsydoodle]

184. So when were you there ?

or do you only read comics ? :sarcasm:

[ProudDad]

188. In the depths of the "Special Period"

which made today's Great Recession look like a picnic in the park...

And those people were more proactive, productive, effective and happier that the sheeple of the Empire today under MUCH worse circumstances...

It appears that you are the one reading "comics"...

especially if you believe the comic book media and propaganda of the Empire...

[dipsydoodle]

190. I was there for most of October this year

I cannot comment on how it was in the past but now poor they might be generally speaking contented they are.

[Creative]

191. One doesn't need to experience slavery to know that it is a bad thing.

[dipsydoodle]

193. That's an odd and completely inappropriate analogy

bearing no resemblance to reality whatsoever.

[Creative]

195. Just as "defecting" is escaping, being forced to stay is slavery.

[dipsydoodle]

200. I take it you're now refering to Mexico.

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

201. If they want to "escape" they can go to the American Interests Section and apply for visas.

The US offers 20,000 visas yearly for Cubans who want to come here. Some Cubans who either get rejected, or know they would be rejected, come in boats. Many pay large chunks of change to smugglers in the go-fast boats.

The US offers more visas annually, 20,000, than to any other country. That number has never been sought, not ever, but it is available.

It may pain you to admit that some Cubans went to Mexico, to come across as do so many from the Americas who go that route, hundreds actually dying annually in the attempt to cross the US/Mexico border, and they were captured by Cuban "exile" thugs, held hostage until their Miami relatives coughed up large rewards.

You're attempting to conceal the fact that there are Cubans who come and go regularly.

From a book written by Ann Louise Bardach, former NY Times journalist, and author, a woman who has researched Cuba in the States and in Cuba, concerning the Cubans who come and go from Cuba, or did, until George W. Bush completely slammed the door shut on their travel back and forth to their island. (It has been re-opened by President Obama, but only for Cuban "exiles" and their progeny, not for US ordinary taxpayers.) The book was published in 2002:

In Cuba, one used to be either a revolucionario or a contrarevolucionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiles who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but choose to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriots who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.

Page XVIII
Preface
Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

Copyright© 2002 by
Ann Louise Bardach

~~~~~~~~~
It would seem she holds a different view from yours, and I imagine she does know whereof she speaks, by now.

[Creative]

214. I'm not trying to conceal anything. I just wonder why, for example, it

was illegal to own a computer in Cuba until 2007.

Or why "A special permit from the Communist Party is required for using the Internet. Access to the Internet is heavily controlled, and all e-mails are closely monitored.<1><2>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_in_Cuba

[Judi Lynn]

215. We both know "exile" scum has been controlling ALL Wiki entries concerning Cuba, don't we?

Saturday, May 17, 2008
Cuba: US embargo blocking wider internet access
AP/Miami Herald

It's hopelessly ####ed. I haven't read a word from Wiki on Cuba since I saw what has happened there. It says only what the gusano scum want the world to see. Not even interested in looking this time, either. They used to infest the CNN US/Cuba relations message board around 2000, and they worked on us tag-team style. There were always a couple of those idiots yammering away at us night and day, all hours, and before they left, the next creeps showed up to spell them. There was no doubt whatsoever the rabid right intends to control perceptions on Cuba.

Here's one quick search grab I just snapped instantly which addresses some of the problems, somewhat, although it's heavily spun, still. From 2008:

Posted on Fri, May. 16, 2008
Cuba: US embargo blocking wider internet access

A top Cuban official said Friday that Raúl Castro's government would consider loosening Internet restrictions on ordinary citizens newly allowed to purchase computers -- but Washington's decades-old economic embargo makes it impossible.

''We aren't worried about the citizenry connecting from their homes,'' Telecommunications Vice Minister Boris Moreno told a small group of reporters.

''But problems with technology and resources have made it necessary to give priority to connections that guarantee the country's social and economic development,'' he said, referring to an islandwide network that lets Cubans receive e-mail and view domestic Web sites.

The rest of the worldwide Web is blocked to most citizens in Cuba, which has access controls far stricter than in China or Saudi Arabia. Only foreigners and some government employees and academics are currently allowed unfiltered home Internet service, and many Cubans turn to the black market for expensive, slow dial-up accounts.

Computers for home use were also not available until two weeks ago, when state stores began selling them to the public as part of a series of small quality-of-life changes since Raúl Castro replaced his elder brother Fidel in February.

More:
http://cubafile.blogspot.com/2008/05/cuba-us-embargo-blocking-wider-internet.html

And remember, if someone doesn't produce "proof" you will accept, it just may be they are busy in their lives and don't have the time to hover over their screens like vultures waiting for the next post, but are involved in activities needing their attention elsewhere. It obviously doesn't mean you "won."

If you get some time you can spare, why don't you spend it going through D.U. archives? EVERY possible topic concerning Cuba and Venzuela, Bolivia, etc. have already been exhausted, then beaten to death years ago. We've got a real treasure trove right here.

[Creative]

217. I'm not trying to "win" anything. Freedom is the natural state of a happy human being.

[ProudDad]

244. That's funny, my USAmerican friend

who emigrated to Cuba in 1966...

had a computer and internet connection when I was communicating with him in the mid-90s...

You REALLY must quit believing in bullshit...!

[Judi Lynn]

247. Glad you mentioned it. I posted at CNN's US/Cuba policy board in 2000, saw posts

from people who were in contact by e-mail with their friends in Cuba regularly back then, as well as 2 Cubans living in Cuba who posted at that message board themselves.

Thanks for posting your own experience and comments. It matters a great deal to hear REAL experience speaking.

[ProudDad]

243. So by your definition

the many thousands of USAmericans who emigrate the Corporatist States of America...

Are escaping slavery...

Finally, you got something right! Hooray!

[Creative]

253. US citizens are free to come and go as they please. And if they choose to

define it as escaping, they are fee to say so.

If you do that in Cuba, you will be imprisoned.

[CreekDog]

257. You contradict yourself --US Citizens are not free to come and go to Cuba

as they please.

our peer democracies however, do allow their citizens this right.

[ProudDad]

173. Castro probably did know that...

I sure as hell did!

It was pretty damn obvious...

[defendandprotect]

198. Evidently many here knew ....

I wasn't that familiar with Obama -- though thought his rise somewhat suspicious --

Just generally took the word of others here he was OK --

Had I known he was DLC or what he describes himself now as "New Dem" would NEVER have

voted for him --

HOWEVER, truly I did not expect this unbelieve corporate agenda he's fulfilling!!!

That has shocked me -- including the health care thing -- thought he might have fudged

health care -- but never expected the back room deals and outright betrayal of the public

-- and it is brutal knowing how many in America are in need of health care!

Now I have to ask, "How does Obama sleep at night?"

Cat Food Commission --

Sprying -- seeing "no reason" to impeach Bush or make him accountable --

on and on -- didn't expect another FDR -- but maybe a Carter, at least???

I am shocked!!

Kind a proves I need to move my BS meter waaaay up higher!!


:)

[BoneDaddy]

212. And Castro is so relative

These are not the droids you are looking for.