Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

[swag]

Source: CNN

(CNN) -- A now-retracted British study that linked autism to childhood vaccines was an "elaborate fraud" that has done long-lasting damage to public health, a leading medical publication reported Wednesday.

An investigation published by the British medical journal BMJ concludes the study's author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study -- and that there was "no doubt" Wakefield was responsible.

"It's one thing to have a bad study, a study full of error, and for the authors then to admit that they made errors," Fiona Godlee, BMJ's editor-in-chief, told CNN. "But in this case, we have a very different picture of what seems to be a deliberate attempt to create an impression that there was a link by falsifying the data."

Britain stripped Wakefield of his medical license in May. Efforts to reach him for comment were unsuccessful Wednesday.

"Meanwhile, the damage to public health continues, fueled by unbalanced media reporting and an ineffective response from government, researchers, journals and the medical profession," BMJ states.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/

[DesertRat]

1. How many children's lives have been put at risk

due to the shoddy science and falsified data in this study?!!

[cleanhippie]

2. None...

due to shoddy science. There WAS no science behind the study at all.

[SkyDaddy7]

3. None?

I think you misunderstood what they were talking about? The bogus study is what set off the vaccine scare & is almost the sole reason why many in the USA refuse to get their kids vaccinated...As a result kids are at risk.

[NutmegYankee]

5. Not just children either.

There are many adults who have compromised immune systems or who just did not develop the full effect of the vaccine who are now at risk. Vaccines protect them anyhow because no one else who is vaccinated would get the disease to spread it around. Unfortunately, shit for brains parents decided to not vaccinate their children putting them at risk.

[DesertRat]

6. Exactly right. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

8. It wasn't shoddy science.

It was pure fraud; not science at all.

[cleanhippie]

9. I guess you missed my point.

That no one was harmed due to shoddy science as there was no science involved at all, it was all a fraud.

People were/are harmed due to fraud and willful misrepresentation (especially by the likes of McCarthy, et al.) but not due to science (shoddy or otherwise).

[Capitalocracy]

13. Yet this will continue to erode the public's view of science.

These charlatans should all be locked up.

[cleanhippie]

17. .

[cleanhippie]

18. Agreed, but only because it keeps getting pushed as "science."

[Capitalocracy]

29. What people will think...

When you tell people no, the vaccines don't cause autism, that study turned out to be a total fraud, they'll say oh, see, you can't trust scientific studies

Even knowing that this particular study isn't real science, since it was promoted as science, and since too many studies like it are also promoted as science in the MSM, like the Mormon study that showed people are happier with their sex lives if they wait until marriage to have sex from just this month, then whenever people hear about scientific studies, they'll have no idea whether they're legitimate or not without a lot of independent research, since the press isn't doing their job, and they won't trust them even if they are legitimate.

It's a tragedy that the way people gain access to scientific information, generally through special interest news in the 24-hour cycle, is so flooded with pseudoscientific trash.

[boppers]

124. I can totally believe the Mormon study.

I didn't see it, but if you wait until marriage, you'll never know what the differences are between great sex and mediocre sex....

I was born and raised Mormon. Did I wait for sex until marriage? Hell no. I waited for marriage until I found somebody who I consistently had great sex with.

:evilgrin:

[christx30]

126. My wife doesn't want to be vaccinated for anything

and, in related news, she just got the flu. It's kicking her butt. I had to miss out on 4 hours of work to take her to the doctor ($36) (she doesn't drive) and pay for 3 prescriptions ($46) because she didn't want to get it. Great hon. Thanks for that.

[defendandprotect]

56. No different from attacks on scientists who have delivered the Global Warming message ....

it's a fraudulent study of 12 patients -- where are the major studies that should

have been produced by these huge increases in this new disease?

It's not coincidental that the defense of the drug industry here is also based on

attacking any alternative medicines and any challenge to vaccines and the way they

are being used.

This isn't only about autism -- it's about trying to protect the drug industry --

though their record of corruption is alarming!

[jeff47]

60. The fact that you're unaware of the larger studies

does not mean they do not exist.

Lots of money was spent chasing down this particular avenue. That money was wasted, because it was all based on fraud.

[defendandprotect]

95. Let's review some of those studies ... as we have done before --

And let's look at what Bobby Kennedy has to say on the issue --

would probably be good reminders for everyone since the subject is up again

for discussion --

and certainly AUTISM is still increasing!

[NickB79]

102. Remind me again what medical degrees Bobby Kennedy has? nt

[defendandprotect]

116. Remind me again of how corrupt and criminal Big Pharma companies are ... ??

NOT ONE DRUG COMPANY HAS FAILED TO DEFRAUD MEDICARE -- !!!

And none of them have been barred from doing further business with Medicare

because of that -- though they should!

This is an industry always fighting for the last penny -- fighting patents

ending -- mildly changing drugs to keep the patent going and market essentially

the same drug until three or more labels -- fighting against generics.

Fighting to be able to continue to cheat American patients and Medicare patients

on drug prices!

And -- most of the research on these drugs are paid for by the taxpayer!!

Drug companies are primarily mercenaries . . . working or acting merely for money

or other reward; venal.


The very opposite of what Bobby Kennedy stands for --

[jeff47]

121. Relevance?

Since multiple studies have demonstrated that there is no link between autism and vaccines, what's big pharma have to do with it?

Other than being one of your favorite bogymen.

[defendandprotect]

135. What's the relevance of drug companies defrauding government/Medicare ...

and then being cheered as the rightful party in this controversy --

We have a huge rise in autism in this country, corresponding to the use of these

vaccines -- and you have absolute trust in these corporations?


Same relevance as oil industry and Global Warming --

[jeff47]

142. Once again, your facts are wrong.

Multiple studies in multiple countries, most not funded by "big pharma", have demonstrated that there is no link between autism and vaccines.

In addition, the use of "these vaccines" pre-dates the rise in autism rates.

So, relevance of the drug companies? Or are they just your favorite bogeyman?

[defendandprotect]

180. (Studies) ... "most not funded by 'big pharma'" . . . .

This is naive in also dismissing the huge power of corporate medicine to influence

studies and researchers -- and governments --

Again, autism in this country was rare --

cases have increased as the vaccines have come into use --

[jeff47]

187. Still wrong

I'll happily repeat myself as you keep flailing back to the same points.

"the vaccines" were already in use before the surge in autism diagnoses. Since they were already in use, they can not be the source of the surge in autism diagnoses.

However, autism entered the public consciousness, so people started having their children tested. More testing means many 'marginal' cases that would have been undiagnosed are now diagnosed.

[defendandprotect]

202. Still wrong ...

Vaccines were in use while autism was highly rare --

Vaccines changed -- mercury was added --

quanity, doses, and schedules for vaccinations changed --

And, again, in countries where these particular vaccines had not previously been used,

they were FOLLOWED by a surge in autism rates.

Also look to the widespread use of Ritalin now -- huge numbers of children now being

put on that drug. And, I think it's only based on "recommendation" -- not even testing!

[NickB79]

218. Mercury was added to vaccines in the 1930's

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

"Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes"

Tell us again about the surge in autism rates in the 1940's?

[defendandprotect]

221. There were changes ... in later years ...

and certainly there were new vaccines -- again the quantity and doses were

increased, as well as the number of vaccines given at one time.

And intervals between innoculations.

I doubt you are trying to say that what was available in 1930 was still what

was being administered to children in 1970?

Been a while since I've read about this aspect of it, but certainly the nature

and quanitity of the mercury itself would have to be checked.


Tell us again about the surge in autism rates in the 1940's?

Tell us again that the 1930's vaccines were identical to those administered in 1970?


:eyes:

[Teaser]

205. "More testing means many 'marginal' cases that would have been undiagnosed are now diagnosed"

bingo.

[Teaser]

206. Wow, you are actually using the flying spaghetti monster argument

that lack of pirates causes global warming...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Pirates_and_global_warming

[alarimer]

224. You are completely WRONG

Autism cranks are full of shit. There is NO connection, none at all, between autism and vaccines. People like you are PRO-INFECTIOUS DISEASE. We need to stop calling you anti-vaccines but pro-death because that is what happens when people refuse to have their kids vaccinated. People die. Ignorance like yours kills.

[jeff47]

120. Bobby's just looking for publicity.

And as mentioned below, Autism is not increasing. Autism diagnoses are increasing.

[defendandprotect]

136. That wouldn't be an attempt to smear Bobby Kennedy by any chance, would it?

Autism continues to increase wherever the vaccines are used --

and past cases which are questionable are now being included in the diagnosis --

What would be interesting to see is how many posters here have actual experience

with this disease -- with children suffering from it.

Or with drug company involvement?

[jeff47]

143. Yes, it would

When one behaves as a hack, one deserves to be called out on it.

Again, your facts are wrong. The vaccines in question pre-date the rise in autism rates. And multiple studies conducted in and outside the US, without drug company funding, have demonstrated no link between vaccines and autism.

[defendandprotect]

179. When you have to admit to smear tactics.... you've defeated yourself ...

There were rare cases of autism ....

the increases in autism coincide with the use of the vaccines --

Many times we've been told that studies have occured w/o industry funding --

especially re Global Warming -- only to find later many connections.

Big Pharma is a huge industry with much political power -- especially over governments.

And they have a lot at stake in vaccine profits --

[jeff47]

188. Again, you're ignoring reality in order to confirm your opinion

I understand that you think "big pharma" is evil. That's nice. But there's no valid study that has found any connection between vaccines and autism. You might as well spend your time questioning if gravity exists.

I also understand that you hate scientists. After all, they're just evil people in the pockets of big industry. However, they're not. The best way to guarantee a lifetime of fame and funding is to make a major discovery that overturns the status quo. While big pharma might not want a link between autism and vaccines, individual scientists would love to. The fame means they'll be in textbooks forever, and the fame means publishing becomes much, much easier. "No name" scientists have to work harder to get into journals. More journal articles means more funding. Plus the fame means a nice professorship with tenure, so they don't have to worry about their finances for the rest of their lives.

Lastly, big pharma does not have a lot at stake in vaccine profits. Vaccines are not very profitable. There's much more profit in treatment. Which do you think makes big pharma more money: A "vaccine" against childhood diabetes, or doses of insulin three times a day for the rest of the person's life? Likewise, they'd make a lot more money treating measles than inoculating against it. If they were the evil bastards you think they are, they'd be thrilled at the anti-vax movement. Anti-vaxxers mean more money.

[defendandprotect]

207. That's your opinion ... I trust you'd agree with that --

The reality is you attempted a smear because you're frustrated in the debate --

I understand that you think "big pharma" is evil. That's nice. But there's no valid study that has found any connection between vaccines and autism. You might as well spend your time questioning if gravity exists.

Big Pharma is part of our overall system of PRIVATE for-profit health care which we in America

are struggling to survive. There are no valid studies because Big Pharma is very powerful in

its influences over our doctors, researchers and our government.

Neither are the studies which have been done which allegedly absolve the vaccines believable.

What makes sense is what the parents are saying -- their experiences make clear what happens --

and that the sad effects on their children occur immediately AFTER the vaccines are administered.

Gravity exists -- but evidently we don't know as yet all there is to know about gravity in the

universe.


I also understand that you hate scientists. After all, they're just evil people in the pockets of big industry.

And that's the kind of overreach and nonsense which demeans your own debate.

However, they're not. The best way to guarantee a lifetime of fame and funding is to make a major discovery that overturns the status quo. While big pharma might not want a link between autism and vaccines, individual scientists would love to. The fame means they'll be in textbooks forever, and the fame means publishing becomes much, much easier. "No name" scientists have to work harder to get into journals. More journal articles means more funding. Plus the fame means a nice professorship with tenure, so they don't have to worry about their finances for the rest of their lives.

First, do you know every scientist and can personally vouch for their ethics?

Perhaps you can vouch for lawyers who told Bush he could torture people?

Or maybe you want to vouch for psychiatrists who worked to aid "breaking down prisoners"

for further interrogation and torture?

Secondly, your post is naive. Not only does it begin with false values -- fame -- but it ends

with monetary reward. However, we have long pursued alternative energy -- where is it after

60 years of oil companies propagandizing the public to deny Global Warming?

BP finally bought out the wind industry. And "Journals" can't be corrupted by political

influence on them?

Lastly, big pharma does not have a lot at stake in vaccine profits. Vaccines are not very profitable. There's much more profit in treatment. Which do you think makes big pharma more money: A "vaccine" against childhood diabetes, or doses of insulin three times a day for the rest of the person's life? Likewise, they'd make a lot more money treating measles than inoculating against it. If they were the evil bastards you think they are, they'd be thrilled at the anti-vax movement. Anti-vaxxers mean more money.

Don't really know about the profits, but mercury was used to extend the life of vaccines -

which increased their profits. Also, indications that they are moving into areas of extended

vaccine use -- military for one -- new events like Avian flu, etal have provided great profit.

And what drugs does Big Pharma provide for treating autism?


Autism Therapy: drug | Healing Thresholds
The only two drugs that have been approved by the US Food and Drug Administraion to treat symptoms related to autism are Risperdal and Abilify. The drugs in the table below ...
autism.healingthresholds.com/therapy/drug - Cached


How many children on Ritalin now?

Also in assessing treatment for actual cases of measles, you seem to assume that every child

would get measles! No, of course not. But every child is being with a vaccine to prevent it.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

68. He should go to jail for the harm he has caused

[cleanhippie]

71. I couldn't agree more.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

94. the question is for how long.

I recall seeing him at some symposium and thinking, "Wow, this is a surprise, and this is scary." When some people pointed to Thimerisol, I felt like it almost made sense. And then the movement to withdraw from vaccines began in earnest. When I questioned some of those people in detail, the only one they could point to was Wakefield. That was when my doubts began. Clearly this should have been showing up all over, with serious statistical support. Did not happen. Now we see why.

I'd say 10 years at a minimum, with parole possible after 9 years.

[Capitalocracy]

109. Even if people died?

I think the effects of his actions should be studied for his sentencing. How many kids got sick because of this? How many died? Vaccination dropped 80% in England after this study.

[LeftishBrit]

110. Though your basic point is valid, vaccination in England didn't drop by 80%

MMR vaccination dropped *to* a bit over 80%, having been at over 90%. Quite a difference - fortunately. But yes, this did result in measles and mumps again becoming endemic in Britain, having been almost wiped out before the scare; and yes, there were some deaths.

[Capitalocracy]

111. Thanks for the correction

Read the article a bit too quickly there...

And yes, if there were deaths, it's hard for me to see this as anything other than murder, especially with the profit motive.

[defendandprotect]

137. And what should we do about ALL the drug companies which have defrauded Medicare/government?

That is every last one of the drug companies, by the way --

they have ALL been involved in defrauding government.

What shall we do about them? They haven't even been barred from

doing future business with government/Medicare!

But these are the trust-worthy corporations -- part of the private health

care industry -- which suddenly everyone here wants to put their undying faith in!



:eyes:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

181. a whole different issue.

Any company that spends a billion advertising and promoting a pain pill that is actually worse, and more harmful than existing meds, then lies about its dangers, well, the executives should suffer the consequences. Now that Bill Daley is the chief of staff for Obama, I am sure we shall see movement along those lines.

Right?

[defendandprotect]

208. No ... it's a related issue ... In order to have confidence in the vaccines ....

the delivery system -- the quality and purity of the vaccines -- you have to

have confidence in Big Pharma.

Unfortunately, the political influence of private health care is negatively

impacting and corrupting our government -- and their influence over our legislators

is also limiting class lawsuits -

Did you intend to add a :sarcasm: to this post --

cause now that you've gotten to the Wall Street/Daley, I'm wondering .... ???



:eyes:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

210. chasm of sar, indeed.

[defendandprotect]

216. Confidence in Wall Street Daley would be "chasm of sar" --

[StarsInHerHair]

42. yes, whooping cough outbreaks are just one example of what that idiotic

"study" helped happen.

[AtheistCrusader]

7. ty

It was pure snake-oil.

[One_Life_To_Give]

70. How many died of Whooping Cough?

Not just at risk. We likely can determine an actual number of kids who died as a result. Although it may me impossible to seperate down to the individual. The net result is dead kids.

[endless october]

104. many lives have been put at risk by this.

just look at the outbreaks of illnesses that vaccines effectively prevent, such as pertussis.

Wakefield is to blame for a lot of it. the rest of the credit goes to idiot celebrities who spread the misinformation and anti-vax woo blogs written by authors who probably didn't even take a college level immunology course.

[defendandprotect]

117. Breastfeeding provides immunity ... how many of these diseases worsened

or became more widespread because women were told breastfeeding wasn't necessary?

And that began as a dedicated and purposeful campaign as early as the "discoverers"

arriving here who told native American women that their breastmilk was no good because

it was "blue."

Keep in mind also that male doctors long discouraged women from allow the newborn to

breastfeed on the first appearance of breastmilk -- COLOSTRUM which happens only within

the first 24 hours -- and which provides tremendous nourmishment only available at that

time. And, btw, it was discouraged because COLOSTRUM is "yellow."

So much for male medicine!!

So -- we've had generations of this interference with a way to provide natural immunization

to diseases -- and it was completely interferred with.

Create disease -- sell drugs! Good plan ... for whom?

[endless october]

127. in the era before vaccination was invented, everyone was breast fed.

it wasn't enough to prevent the diseases.

[defendandprotect]

129. It was enough ... all nature has some death ... if we want to break those bonds with

nature to try to insure that there is never a death then we end up

creating only more disease and more death -- which is what we see with autism.

Everyone is sicker now than ever before -- 1 in 3 Americans with cancer!

[endless october]

170. and back in the pre-vaccine glory days...

...many babies died and the average life expectancy was around 40. If you were unfortunate enough to catch one of these horrible diseases, about all you could do was go home and die, possibly infecting your family at the same time.

I think vaccination is infinitely preferable. Your mileage may vary.

[defendandprotect]

182. The argument isn't for NO vaccines ... it's for CAUTION ....

remember the Native American used to judge their decisions by seven generations?

We have increasing infant death now because of our corporate control of health care --

Actually, I think healthier living conditions are preferable --

and the corporate-economy we are suffering is only providing more stress, ill health

and death for our citizens.

Again -- this isn't a NO vaccines debate -- it is a debate for CAUTION ... especially

where we have corporate control of drugs as we do with Big Pharma!

[Dorian Gray]

128. Breastfeeding

is great and all, but disease existed thousands of years ago, when everyone was breastfed. I breastfeed my child, but I still get her the proper immunizations.

[defendandprotect]

130. Disease existed for many reasons ... compare the Western European with the native American...

who was healthy and who was diseased?

Many conditions under which Western Europeans lived created disease --

and, I'd add, probably contributed to deficient mental health!

[LeftishBrit]

228. Who was healthy? Neither.

Most people before the days of modern medicine suffered lots of illness and died young compared with people nowadays.

People who lived in temperate climates, and in places where it was easy to grow food, had a better chance than those who were in danger of freezing and starvation as well as disease. In any culture or region, the rich tended to live longer than the poor. But even under the most favourable of circumstances, few people lived as long as nowadays.

[defendandprotect]

222. Native Americans had natural immunties ... but NOT to everything the Western European introduced

to them ....

And many reasons why the Western European was so riddled with diseases --

poor living in filth and squalor -- and the rich ill as well often.

Ignorance also plays a large part in poor conditions of health.

[fleabert]

201. are you for real?

i am a bf advocate, currently EBF my 5 mo. I decided on a delayed vax schedule due to the antibodies i give her, and that i think she could use a little more time and a slower vax schedule rather than a huge dose all at once. but the autism link is crap. proven crap. my kid is also not in daycare or exposed to kids regularly right now. no need for the aggressive schedule. if she was in daycare, you bet she'd have the full schedule.

it's just stupid to not vax. bad science.

you are continuing to grasp at strawmen to argue your point, it has become more and more clear that your point is DON'T TRUST ANYONE, THE BOOGYMAN IS COMING TO GET US! and if anyone disagrees with you, they are in the pocket of said boogyman.

gak.

gimme a good argument and a point please.

[defendandprotect]

223. Are you for real?

this is about questioning and challenging the safety of vaccines -- and how they are

administered -- in what quanitities and when -- and I notice you evidently did the same

in your personal life -- but, it is not about eliminating vaccines.

[fleabert]

226. finally you answered a question without spam about 19 other topics.

we should all question and challenge all we are 'told' to do for ourselves and our kids- who you trust is important. I trust double blind studies. because of methodology, it's more important than anything else, motive or otherwise.

[defendandprotect]

229. I respond to spam by repeating what they are ignoring ....

And glad to see you agree on this ....

we should all question and challenge all we are 'told' to do for ourselves and our kids- who you trust is important.

One of the last industries I would trust would be Big Pharma and the drug companies.

[fleabert]

230. ok. but do you trust the SCIENTISTS?

vaccines have been repeated proven safe, by randomized double blind studies over the last 50+ years to be safe and effective, and have in fact- saved countless lives. The industries aren't the voice i listen to either, it's the studies and the scientists that perform them that i listen to.

there is NO correlation between thimerosol (sp?) and autism, nor is their any correlation between autism and vaccines in general. Period. what you have repeated here over and over and over is an example of faulty logic and you repeatedly fail to acknowledge the posts that explain that to you. give a little. you made a mistake. admit it.

[defendandprotect]

233. Do you listen to Wakefield?

What scientists? The ones who deny Global Warming?

Those who haven't arisen together to sound the alarm on 1 in 3 Americans having cancer?

Those who don't want to acknowledge effects of environment on citizen health -- pollution

of our air, water, food?

What you're trying to suggest is that -- despite constant fraud in the drug industry --

despite "bad batches" of vaccines -- despite the AIDS epidemic which many link to the way

the polio vaccine was produced in Africa -- despite our "slash and burn" medical practices --

despite the endless lists of side effects of drugs -- and the reality that Big Pharma drugs

have done great harm to the health of patients -- you want to suggest that vaccines are

different? Wholly pure and wholly without problems?

Our medical system is a disaster -- and there is no reason to exclude the Drug giants!

We also don't know what, in the end, is being saved -- we're not judging anything by the

"Seventh Generation."

And MERCURY is good for us --

Don't think so --




ok. but do you trust the SCIENTISTS?
vaccines have been repeated proven safe, by randomized double blind studies over the last 50+ years to be safe and effective, and have in fact- saved countless lives. The industries aren't the voice i listen to either, it's the studies and the scientists that perform them that i listen to.


there is NO correlation between thimerosol (sp?) and autism, nor is their any correlation between autism and vaccines in general. Period. what you have repeated here over and over and over is an example of faulty logic and you repeatedly fail to acknowledge the posts that explain that to you. give a little. you made a mistake. admit it.
silence is a great help to a seeker after truth

[Demeter]

4. Preying on the Psychologically Traumatized

with false theories to muddle the legitimate efforts to relieve suffering and advance public health...

Stripping his license is the least they could do.

[Capitalocracy]

10. Jail.

License of course should be gone, for life.

[LeftishBrit]

112. His license in the UK probably will be gone for life

Which is why poor old Texas is probably stuck with him. I do apologize for this poisonous export.

[Capitalocracy]

113. Just be glad you're rid of him

Texas is kind of a lost cause anyway.

[defendandprotect]

131. How many people have Big Pharma killed ... ???

How many people have Big Pharma made ill . . . ???

Take a look at the side effects of those drugs some time --

[HuckleB]

240. The usual red herring.

Boring.

:puke:

[Capitalocracy]

11. Rec for visibility. What an important story.

Too bad nobody will hear about it.

Edit to add: Why would someone do this?

[Capitalocracy]

12. After reading the article, I retract that question.

He was paid by a law firm planning to sue vaccine manufacturers, and planned on building an empire around his pseudoscience. What a world-class d-bag.

[NutmegYankee]

14. When in doubt on why someone did something:

It's usually for money.

[Capitalocracy]

15. I assumed it was

but I was curious about the mechanism.

[defendandprotect]

133. Well Big Pharma ... every last company ... has defrauded Medicare ... does that tell you anything?

We also pay 4X and 5X what other nations pay for their drugs --

Does that tell you anything?

[defendandprotect]

132. Presume you have the same animosity for oil industry which has spread

propaganda of misinformation and disinformation re Global Warming for 60 years

or more now? Propaganda campaigns costing tens of billions of dollars -- lies

told to the public to keep them from knowing what is actually going on.

How many will die now from Global Warming?

How many people have Big Pharma killed or sickened?

This trust in Big Pharma is ironic given that we know they have defrauded

Medicare -- every last one of the Big Pharma companies -- and that they are about

as trust-worthy as the rest of the private health care industry!

These are mercenaries -- benefiting from research paid for with our taxpayer dollars --

and we are all paying 3X and 4X what other nations pay for these drugs.

This is misplaced confidence --

Check the side effects on your next medication if you take any --

When side effects show up, they'll prescribe another medication with yet more side effects

to relive that problem --

and when the new side effects show up, they'll prescribe another medication with yet more

side effects --

[pnwmom]

24. Why is an old story so important? Wakefield was discredited long ago. n/t

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. A link to the original article:

BMJ 2011; 342:c5347 doi: 10.1136/bmj.c5347 (Published 5 January 2011)
Cite this as: BMJ 2011; 342:c5347


Secrets of the MMR scare

How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed

Brian Deer, journalist



In the first part of a special BMJ series, Brian Deer exposes the bogus data behind claims that launched a worldwide scare over the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine, and reveals how the appearance of a link with autism was manufactured at a London medical school

When I broke the news to the father of child 11, at first he did not believe me. “Wakefield told us my son was the 13th child they saw,” he said, gazing for the first time at the now infamous research paper which linked a purported new syndrome with the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine.1 “There’s only 12 in this.”

That paper was published in the Lancet on 28 February 1998. It was retracted on 2 February 2010.2 Authored by Andrew Wakefield, John Walker-Smith, and 11 others from the Royal Free medical school, London, it reported on 12 developmentally challenged children,3 and triggered a decade long public health scare.

“Onset of behavioural symptoms was associated by the parents with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination in eight of the 12 children,” began the paper’s “findings.” Adopting these claims as fact,4 its “results” section added: “In these eight children the average interval from exposure to first behavioural symptoms was 6.3 days (range 1-14).”

Mr 11, an American engineer, looked again at the paper: a five page case series of 11 boys and one girl, aged between 3 and 9 years. Nine children, it said, had diagnoses of “regressive” autism, and all but one were reported with “non-specific colitis.” The “new syndrome” brought these together, linking brain and bowel diseases. His son was the penultimate case.

Running his finger across the paper’s tables, over coffee in London, Mr 11 seemed reassured by his anonymised son’s age and other details. But then he pointed at table 2—headed “neuropsychiatric diagnosis”—and for a second time objected.

“That’s not true.”

More

[Jefferson23]

19. Irresponsible to say the least. He inspired the secretin use for children

with autism...terrible results.

Secretin is an ineffective treatment for pervasive developmental disabilities: a review of 15 double-blind randomized controlled trials

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VDN-4DHXDJP-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F01%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5d888e8e4ef7b2aa76a2f1be866bc0e8&searchtype=a

[defendandprotect]

134. And how many Americans kids are now on Ritalin? How many ads do you see every day on TV for drugs?

There's another side to this story -- huge corruption by Big Pharma with

very few understanding it --

Every last drug company/Big Pharma has defrauded government in the Medicare program!

Medicines have so many side effects that taking them means you'll need another two or

three prescriptions just to treat the side effects.

[Jefferson23]

217. I don't see that your reply has any relevance to what I posted.

You're talking about something entirely different defendandprotect.

Sorry, but we disagree on this one.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mark Maker]

21. A fraud aided and abetted by Salon and Rolling Stone Magazine

with the often quoted Deadly Immunity article that was cut from whole cloth also.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/06/16/thimerosal/print.html

Settled science my azz, it was all a rain making grab by a bunch of of greedy lawyers.

[pnwmom]

22. That article has NO connection to the Wakefield research.

I just read the whole thing and there is no mention of Wakefield's research at all.

Maybe you should read it yourself.

[Spider Jerusalem]

67. ....

In 2001 Dr. Thomas Verstraeten published preliminary results that showed a potential link between autism and thiomersal <6> (later larger studies conducted by Verstraeten in 2003 would show that this effect was not replicable and he would conclude there is no link<7>).
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Autism_omnibus_trial

[Psephos]

27. Article by RFK jr shows why mixing politics and science is bad news squared. n/t

[pnwmom]

23. Wakefield's work was discredited years ago. This is nothing new. n/t

[bhikkhu]

26. So once you know about it, nobody else needs to?

Perhaps I have been lax in my news-following, but this is the first I've heard of it.

Back when the "bird flu" scare was going around, and every year around flu-shot time, the dangers of vaccines seem to become daily conversation fodder around my community. I'm very happy to have read the OP - some solid information to apply to ignorance.

[mzmolly]

25. Again?

Fascinating "news"! :sarcasm:

[Psephos]

28. The news isn't the fraud, but that a big journal published a conclusive analysis of the fraud.

They picked it apart so thoroughly and systematically that only irrational or ideological people could remain under its sway.

[mzmolly]

34. Brian Deer has made these claims for years. The fact that a

journal now published his disputed account doesn't seem news worthy to me.

[Spider Jerusalem]

76. His account isn't disputed at all.

And it was the basis for the General Medical Council of the UK stripping Wakefield of his ability to practise medicine and finding that he had abused his position of trust as a physician, had engaged in gross professional misconduct, had falsified research data, had failed to disclose serious conflicts of interest, and much else besides. The paper has been withdrawn by the publishing journal; Wakefield himself has been struck off the medical register. The facts in the case are plain, and they are only disputed by Wakefield himself (in the face of evidence against him, in the face of the findings of the GMC's fitness to practise panel, in the face of the parents of the children involved in the original study saying he made things up about their medical histories, and so on), and those people who continue to believe the nonsensical link between autism and vaccinations, again in the face of evidence of gross misconduct by Wakefield and of no link having been found by countless subsequent studies and research.

[mzmolly]

78. It has been disputed. Wakefield has responded to Deer, repeatedly.

http://www.rescuepost.com/files/deer-response.pdf

Snip below.

"It is a matter of fact that I did not play any part whatsoever in making the
microscopic diagnoses of inflammation on any biopsy from any child
investigated at the Royal Free Hospital. Intestinal tissues were examined,
and the children’s pathology documented, by two doctors (not me)
employed in the Department of Histopathology who were experienced in
bowel disease, using an agreed protocol to ensure rigor and consistency .
These doctors were co-authors on the paper. The same tissues were
reviewed by Professor Walker-Smith and his team. I merely entered the
documented findings into the Lancet paper. I did not “change” any findings
as alleged. The paper was then reviewed by the relevant authors prior to
submission to the Lancet in order to confirm that the diagnoses were
correct. The findings reported in the Lancet are, in the opinion of the
relevant authors, correct. This is a matter of record at the GMC."

Again, the claim that Wakefield is a fraud is not new. It's another attempt to smear him and blame him for daring to suggest a single jab vs the three way MMR. Horrors!

[Spider Jerusalem]

79. The General Medical Council disagrees.

So do the parents of the children in the study, whose medical records do not match what was reported in the paper.

[mzmolly]

80. So now we listen to parents?

Interesting.

Again, Wakefield addressed the claims Brian Deer (a reporter) has managed to have inserted into a medical journal. I'm not taking sides, I'm just pointing out the facts.

[Spider Jerusalem]

81. When the parents are saying 'no, that's not my kid at all, that's all wrong'

when their kid was in the study? Sure. When there's a discrepancy in the medical records and the claimed recollections of parents IN THE PAPER vs what they actually say themselves? Sure. We don't listen to parents who think that vaccination = autism because that's mistaking correlation and causation; we do listen when they happen to say 'no, this is completely made up and falsified' and it's backed up by medical records.

Wakefield hasn't refuted the claims; if he had done so and had been able to defend himself and his actions credibly, he'd not have been struck off the medical register and the Lancet would not have retracted the paper.

[mzmolly]

82. Some parents ... in retrospect,

from the little I've read. Again, I'm glad you're now listening to parents.

RE: the Lancet, they retracted the paper after YEARS due to political pressure. Doesn't mean a hill of beans to me. But, neither did Wakefield's individual study of twelve children. I'm far more interested in the primate and mouse studies that provide potential evidence regarding the mechanisms of vaccine related injury.

[Spider Jerusalem]

84. If you've only read "a little", then you're in no position to offer an opinion, are you?

Since by your own admission you don't actually know what you're talking about. And it's not just "some parents in retrospect"; the medical history of EVERY ONE of the twelve children in the fraudulent study was falsified; the evidence is in the findings of the General Medical Council which formed a significant part of their findings of serious professional misconduct against Wakefield.

[mzmolly]

85. Just finished reading the BMJ. Nothing new, as I said.

:boring:

Wakefield replied to claims of altered records in the link I supplied, which you apparently didn't read, above.

[Spider Jerusalem]

87. I did read it, his replies don't square with the evidence.

Which YOU apparently didn't read or choose to disregard because it conflicts with your apparently religious belief in Wakefield the Galileo-like martyr suffering at the hands of the pharmaceutical conspiracy.

[mzmolly]

88. What evidence? That Brian Deer claims once again that Wakefield falsified data?

Like I said, it's old news. The only thing new is that a journal agreed that Brian Deer, a reporter had enough scientific cred to have his "story" published.

"Based upon the parental histories of regression in their children after MMR
vaccine, the known link between measles and brain damage including
autism3 and the findings in the children, there was and continues to be
every reasonable basis for suspecting a possible link between MMR
vaccination and autistic regression.

The reporting of the children in the Lancet paper is an accurate account of
the clinical histories as reported to Professor Walker-Smith and his clinical
colleagues. The normality or otherwise of the children’s development was
evident in the medical history taken by these clinicians, and backed up by
the Health Visitor’s4 contemporaneous record of the respective child’s
development. The claim to have detected a possible new syndrome was
valid and, in contrast with Deer’ false claim, is supported by confirmation
of the original findings by others5."

...

On the contrary, the issues raised by Deer are, in many respects, identical
to those raised by him on previous occasions. One can only imagine that,
as the evidence has emerged at the GMC, the fallacy of Deer’s original
allegations has become clear. The timing and content of Deer’s latest
allegations and the published article, his behavior at the GMC hearing (See
“The Incident” by Martin Walker6), and recent admissions of failings in the
area of vaccine safety by the US National Vaccine Advisory Committee,
suggest a degree of desperation on the part of Deer and those with whom
he is working.

Measles outbreaks are preventable, immediately, by offering to parents
with entirely valid concerns about the safety of MMR vaccine, a choice of
single measles vaccine; not to do so is unethical and puts the vaccine
policy, “our way or no way”, before the wellbeing of children.
There is absolutely no question of the continuing investigation and
treatment of these children coming to a halt because of this or any other
kind of subversive tactic.

[Spider Jerusalem]

90. You ARE aware that Wakefield brought a libel suit against Brian Deer and the Times?

And dropped the case after two years, and had to pay Deer's legal costs. And the judgement in the case, by Mr. Justice Eady of the High Court, said in part:

the Claimant wishes to use the existence of the libel proceedings for public relations purposes, and to deter other critics, while at the same time isolating himself from the downside of such litigation, in having to answer a substantial defence of justification. Tactics of that kind would militate against the granting of a stay.
<...>
It is suggested that there was a consistent pattern of using the existence of libel proceedings, albeit stayed, as a tool for stifling further criticism or debate. For example, my attention was drawn to a letter addressed to Dr Evan Harris, a member of Parliament, on 25th February 2005. He had criticised the Claimant on a radio programme. The letter was to warn him off
<...>
There was even an attempt on the Claimant's behalf to restrict the Department of Health from supplying the public with such information as it thought appropriate.

Also, the reporting of the case histories in the Lancet paper is not accurate. It was found to be not accurate and inconsistent with case histories as recorded in medical records by the General Medical Council. What part of this are you incapable of processing?

[mzmolly]

200. Not sure how it pertains? Other than proving that Deer has been making

the same claims, for years. The only news is that he got a medical journal to publish his "work" as a reporter, and call it science.

[defendandprotect]

138. Thank you ... didn't know about that ... but lots of money involved here for vaccine companies ....

and, heaven forbid, the many lawsuits that would result if the vaccines are

ever connected to autism.

It is sadly ironic, however, the implicit faith so many here have in Big Pharma!!

Every last one of these drug companies has defrauded government/Medicare --

and none have been barred from doing future business with Medicare!

PLUS every American is paying 4X and 5X and 6X what other nations pay for their drugs.

No one here would question the merecenary nature of the private Health Care industry

today -- but when it comes to Big Pharma and vaccines -- and their endless list of

drugs with endless side effects -- they are to judge by this thread only "saints"

saving our children!!




:eyes:

[Odin2005]

30. Wakefield should be IN PRISON. Autistic kids have DIED because of his bullshit.

I'm hearing crickets from several posters that think that fucker is some great hero.

[msanthrope]

31. I think the cricket chorus is rehearing the "old news, old news" song-and-dance....

[pnwmom]

36. What is the cricket chorus? People who don't share all of your opinions? n/t

[mzmolly]

35. Any evidence that anyone who chose the single vaccine at his

urging vs. the triple MMR jab is dead?

[No Elephants]

37. BUT, any evidence he cared if his fraud resulted in someones death? Or injury?

Or impeded research into causes of autism?

The now-discredited paper panicked many parents and led to a sharp drop in the number of children getting the vaccine that prevents measles, mumps and rubella. Vaccination rates dropped sharply in Britain after its publication, falling as low as 80% by 2004. Measles cases have gone up sharply in the ensuing years.

In the United States, more cases of measles were reported in 2008 than in any other year since 1997, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. More than 90% of those infected had not been vaccinated or their vaccination status was unknown, the CDC reported.

[Capitalocracy]

46. Who cares if it didn't lead to deaths? It easily could have.

It led to kids getting potentially fatal diseases. If they didn't die, we have actual doctors and real science to thank. The guy had every intention to let kids get sick and die for his profit.

[defendandprotect]

139. ..and is that the same view you take when Big Pharma medications kill people?

or sicken them?

[mzmolly]

77. How could what he said result in death or injury when he suggested three

vaccines vs. one? Regardless, what the stats you quote don't include, is that many parents in the UK who supposedly opted out, simply paid for the single jabs ala Wakefield's suggestion. These parents are not accounted for in the 80 percent figure. However, even if they opted out, they did so, ignoring his advice to get the single jab.

As for the US, having more "reported cases," does not mean we had a reduction in vaccine compliance. In fact, we had the recommended uptake of *90%, which is up greatly over the past couple decades.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5936a2.htm?s_cid=mm5936a2_w

[defendandprotect]

40. Interesting question ....

and, imo, the vaccine questions are something which have to continue

to be looked at -- first, because of our corporate crime wave and --

second, because of the profits being made by the manufacturers of these

mandatory medications --

We have to come to the inevitable conclusion that medical care for profit

simply corrupts medical care --

Capitalism is suicidal to the planet and humanity --

and this is just one vein in the gold mine that medicine and health care has become.



:nuke:

[defendandprotect]

51. Where is there any proof that children have "died" because of this study....?

Parents have followed their own instincts and conscience in regard to the

vaccines -- as they rightly should.

Medical care for profit produces only corruption and crime by the industry --

which we have seen from Big Pharma over and again--

The huge rise in victims of this new disease should be something which should

be alarming to our government and any government that cares about its citizens.

Oops!

[Odin2005]

66. Chelation therapy.

To take out the mercury. Chelation should ONLY be used for radiation exposure and actual heavy metal poisoning, it's very dangerous.

[defendandprotect]

140. You're saying doctors recommended and administered chelation therapy?

Let's face it, we have complete corruption of health care -- and medications ---

not only the private H/C industry but Big Pharma --

and until we get the money and mercenary elements out of our medical system

we will be in the same condition we are in with oil industry controlling our futures!

If we want true health care, we have to end corporatism -- move to non-profit medicine.

If we want to respond to Global Warming and secure alternative energy, we need to

NATIONALIZE OIL INDUSTRY --

Same thing -- same mercenaries --

[Odin2005]

152. Your habit of trying to spam this thread with irrelevent topics is annoying.

I'm am surprised you haven't started ranting about "Teh Evil Patriarchy" yet. :eyes:

Chelation is pushed by the anto-vax morons that think that "removing the (non-existant) mercury" will "cure" autism.

[defendandprotect]

178. I'm responding to posters ... same as you are doing ... are you spamming?

And, again, you seem to have run out of debate --

if you want to debate "patriarchy" and it's wonders, post an OP and I'll be there.

There was at one time MERCURY in these vaccines -- and residues of mercury remained

for some time --

if MERCURY is found in the bodies of children who have been vaccinated ....

then imo it would seem sensible to try to remove it -- IF THAT IS POSSIBLE WITHOUT

DOING ANY FURTHER HARM.

See you when you come up with another strawman, I guess ...

[FLAprogressive]

32. Yet as with homeopathy people will still believe it, long after it is disproved time and time again.

[defendandprotect]

41. A study of 12 patients has been "disproved" ... questions about vaccines will linger, rightly so!!

Medicine for profit -- expecially within Big Pharma -- is a corrupting influence.

Not only on the medications and practices themselves, but for truth.

[Capitalocracy]

44. My understanding is that this was THE STUDY

in terms of a link between vaccines and autism. This is what spread the rumor, a lie. I really think you need to start looking at other factors.

I've read about one doctor who thinks that 2d representations of 3 dimensional space on screens when babies are still forming their brain's ability to process their perception of space around them can cause problems in their brain development, possibly so far as to lead to autism. Do I believe that? No, I won't believe that until there's a peer-reviewed study, but it's certainly more interesting than this MMR thing, which is entirely based on this study, the study has been debunked, it has been shown to be fraudulent, other studies have disproven the specific mechanism proposed by Wakefield and revealed that children become autistic in the same numbers before and after, with or without vaccination, no study has ever come close to duplicating Wakefield's results.

The whole house of cards for the MMR theory rested on one fraudulent study and a bunch of pseudoscientist self help book hawkers and celebrity snake oil salesmen. The study has not only been thoroughly debunked, but proven fraudulent, in order to get your money. It's time to put it to bed.

Why do you believe the theory from the fraudulent study and not, say, this study?
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-09-03/health/measles.autism_1_autism-link-andrew-wakefield-measles-vaccine?_s=PM:HEALTH

[defendandprotect]

47. 12 people was "THE STUDY" .... ??? Neither has link of vaccines to autism been disproved ....

Having a closed mind on that simply points to self-protection of "Big Pharma" --

And that's pretty wild proclamation that we've had autism at these levels historically

when we know we haven't!!

The whole house of cards points to corruption and crime within corporations -- and

especially within the "Big Pharmas" --

I believe the parents and their observations -- and that as much evidence that is coming

from the parents and the bodies of the children would suggest a much wider goivernment

and scientific interest as autism rates continue to climb! That isn't happening and it

creates even more questions.

When the parents are satisfied, then perhaps we can all begin to rethink this.

Otherwise, we have rising rates of autism coinciding with introductions of these vaccines

and the practices of administering these vaccines.

We have wholesale corruption of medicine -- which has been going on for decades --

And PROFIT is the villan -- not only corrupting medicine, but science.

[robcon]

49. Classic fallacy...

"Otherwise, we have rising rates of autism coinciding with introductions of these vaccines

and the practices of administering these vaccines." - defendandprotect

Post hoc, propter hoc is a classic logical fallacy

A Post Hoc is a fallacy with the following form:

1. A occurs before B.
2. Therefore A is the cause of B.

The Post Hoc fallacy derives its name from the Latin phrase "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." This has been traditionally interpreted as "After this, therefore because of this." This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html

[defendandprotect]

54. Game playing doesn't change the facts ... autism has risen and increased to alarming numbers ....

as the use of these vaccines have increased --

and as the corruption and criminality of the Drug companies have been

exposed.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

99. you don't really understand the difference between causality and correlation,

do you?

[defendandprotect]

141. What I very well understand is game-playing ... go find someone else to play with ...

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

100. you're just shouting into the wind, I'm sorry to say

I applaud your attempt at logic but that just doesn't seem to be on the menu for this discussion. Sorry!

[defendandprotect]

144. Right ... suddenly, we have a corporate admiration spree going on here ... yet ...

this involves Big Pharma -- every last one of these drug companies has defrauded

government/Medicare --

and is part of our private Health Care industry which we know is about about as

mercenary as you can get --

Big Pharma is charging Americans 4X and 5X and 6X what citizens of other nations are

paying for their drugs -- yet this now earns esteem and trust here?

Take a look at the side effects of every one of the drugs being produced -- and when

the side effects kick in, the response by doctors is to administer yet more drugs with

yet more side effects -- and on and on!

How many drug ads do you see every day on your TV screen --

You really believe Big Pharma is the answer to our health problems in America?

All America is doing is expanding private profit while making Americans sicker every day --

1 in 3 Americans now have Cancer!!

[Odin2005]

157. That is a lie and an offensive smear.

Sad that you equate attacking a proven faudster to defending Corporatism. Disgusting.

[defendandprotect]

177. We have a corrupt Drug Industry ... are you denying that?

Sad that you equate attacking a proven faudster to defending Corporatism. Disgusting.

That's what YOU are saying --

What I am saing is that this is a corrupt industry -- to be challenged and questioned

and not automatically trusted --

For profit medicine attracts mercenaries -- and certainly that's what we see in Big Pharma!

[Odin2005]

196. Wakefield was part of the corruption, he was bashing the MMR vaccine because he had a financial...

...interest in a rival vaccine.

And just because there is corruption does not mean there are plenty of drugs that work just fine. I have taken Ritalin since i was 6 and Paxil since I was 16. I have had no panic attacks since I started taking Paxil.

[jeff47]

57. Factual error:

"Otherwise, we have rising rates of autism coinciding with introductions of these vaccines

and the practices of administering these vaccines."

These vaccines were introduced long before the "rising rates of autism".

Personally, I believe the "rising rates of autism" are caused by asperger's syndrome. When I was young, we called such people "nerds". Now it's labeled autism. They always existed, they just weren't counted before.

Btw, vaccines are not very profitable. The "medical industrial complex" would make far more money on treatment of the disease than on the vaccine against it.

Btw #2: You don't have to hit 'return' while making your posts. The software will wrap your text on it's own. To those of us using different screen resolutions, your posts look very odd.

[defendandprotect]

145. No -- as the vaccines have been introduced into other countries, autimism cases have taken off --

[Odin2005]

154. Back up that BS claim with FACTS or retract.

[defendandprotect]

176. Back up that BS claim with FACTS or retract. --

take your own advice --

[quakerboy]

231. Thats kinda the point.

That was "the study". That was the only link I have ever seen. it was pretty shaky to begin with, and now even it is fully exposed as a fraud. What does that leave?

As to the rest... The link between seeing living in a state with a zoo and autism has not been disproven. By the given reasoning, we should protect ourselves from states with zoos.

[defendandprotect]

53. And, notice that you are attacking anything that is anti-vaccination ....

Somehow 40 million or more native Americans managed to live in sanity and good health

on this continent before the diseased Western European arrived -- but I presume

you think they had chemical drug companies somewhere?

Chemical medicine produces many side effects -- take a look at the warnings that

come with every prescription -- and that's usually on the first symptons --

the later recognized symptons rarely make it onto the list -- !!

Nothing is more corrupt or criminal than "Big Pharma" -- and their record with

every one of the drug companies having defrauded the Medicare program is constant

proof of that.

Medicine for profit produces only further crime -- and harm to citizens.

[jeff47]

63. Poor example

The Native Americans were not living in cities. Diseases regularly wiped out a settlement, but did not spread to other settlements due to the low population density.

I find it difficult to believe you wish to return to the joys of smallpox and polio.

[One_Life_To_Give]

73. Don't you want to see this again?

[defendandprotect]

164. And who is suggesting that the polio vaccine be discontinued... only YOU, perhaps?

[defendandprotect]

163. Exactly .. . . living conditions under which the Western European lived created disease ....

Remember that the "joys of small pox" were brought to this continent

by the Western European who was already littered with disease.

You might also try to live with less strawmen --

No one is suggesting that every vaccine be shunned --

However this unfailing trust in Big Pharma is laughable --

The polio vaccine was based on a non-profit situation --

that's not how Big Pharma runs today --

[freshwest]

72. Agreed! I'm tired of being herded by the medical industrial complex and their fear mongering.

It's not just that study that put people off vaccinations; and those who fervently believe in them out of fear, should sign up for all the shots they can get. Then they won't get the diseases they fear.

This is all about making us conform to the corporate mindset, which is pushed by media. They shriek, 'you can't live if you aren't part of our system.'

As you said with a cool head, millions of people have and will live without their industrialized medical solutions. It's time to stop funding this insane thinking with our money.

[jeff47]

83. Or, you could find out about herd immunity

Which is the reason why you need those vaccinations.

But hey, if your neighbor's newborn dies from the measles you transmitted to her, at least you stuck it to the medical industrial complex!

[freshwest]

89. If you had your shots, you wouldn't transmit it, would you?

If you truly believe in the power of the vaccine, that would never happen.

[Zoeisright]

92. Do you know what circular logic is?

Because you just demonstrated it perfectly.

Christ.

[freshwest]

98. Whatever you say...

I'm not in tune with the mindset of this thread and calling for people to be put to death.

I've heard that too many times from the right.

So my thoughts are not going to be valued on this subject which is engendering a lot of emotions. I respect that.

But I'm out of this thread. And there's always the Ignore option for anyone who can't stand my stupidity.

Have a great week.

[jeff47]

122. I wouldn't transmit it

Because I was vaccinated.

If you voluntarily decide to not vaccinate yourself or your children, you are risking the lives of other people who can not receive that vaccine for various reasons (allergy, too young, etc). I question your right to risk other people's lives because you want to stick it to 'big pharma'.

That's why anti-vaxxers are evil, and not merely stupid. They are doing the equivalent of deciding to drive 100MPH in a school zone. Most likely they won't hit anyone. But when they do, it's very bad for the innocent bystanders.

[defendandprotect]

168. This wouldn't be an attempt at all to demonize those calling for caution re vaccines?

"That's why anti-vaxxers are evil"

Perhaps you'd like to go further and label them "terrorists" -- !!

What you're really making clear is the desperation of those pushing vaccines

unquestionably --

and, the mercenary nature of Big Pharma and its huge profits --

[jeff47]

186. "caution" is the incorrect term.

If it was merely caution, you'd have a point.

However, vaccines aren't new, and the supposedly dangerous vaccines are not new. They've been studied ever since cowpox was used to inoculate against smallpox.

This is a combination of fraud and the gullible supporting the fraud. And people have died from preventable diseases because of it. That is evil.

[defendandprotect]

167. We need to get back to natural immunities ... which is also a huge subject

in our cancer rates --

Every one of us has thousands of cancer cells floating thru our bodies at any time --

the problem is with our IMMUNE systems!

[defendandprotect]

166. And that is why the Youth movement of the 1960's was such a threat to for profit medicine....

that movement was about way more than sex!

It challenged authority and was a huge threat to the private profit centers --

including medicine in America -- from circumcision to childbirth!

:)



And, if you're interested ...

Indeed, in 1972, when the details began to come out about a break-in at Democratic Party headquarters in the Watergate Hotel, Mae immediately recognized personnel and modus operandi from nine years of assassination research, while the mainstream press continued to refer to Watergate as a "caper" and "a third-rate burglary." And so it came to pass that while Rabbi Magnin was entertaining Richard Nixon at his home in Los Angeles, his daughter Mae was revealing the President's role in an incredible conspiracy. Meanwhile, she also perceived an assassination plot, not merely against specific individuals, but against the entire counterculture that was burgeoning at the time.
"I realized that in this country we had a revolution--of housing, food, hair style, clothing, cosmetics, transportation, value systems, religion--it was an economic revolution, affecting the cosmetics industry, canned foods, the use of land; people were delivering their own babies, recycling old clothes, withdrawing from spectator sports. They were breaking the barriers where white and black could rap in 1967. This was the year of the Beatles, the summer of Sergeant Pepper, the Monterey Pop Festival, Haight-Ashbury, make your own candle and turn off the electricity, turn on with your friends and laugh--that's what life was all about."


http://maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Ballad%20of%20Mae%20Brussell.html

[Zoeisright]

91. Wow, that's one of the most stupid examples I've ever seen.

The average lifespan of those native Americans living in "good health" was about 40 years. Chemical medicine, as you so stupidly disparage it, has increased the lifespan of the average American to 77 years. MEDICINE did that. Nothing else. And it benefited you too.

Grow up.

[defendandprotect]

169. Agree -- GENOCIDE certainly shortened the life-span of the Native American -- !!

And, while you're suggesting others "grow up" -- you might try that yourself.

Check on where America is with health care -- 37th in the world or below.

Increases in infant deaths --

1 in 3 with Cancer in America --

Drop in lifespan --

Watch your TV screen for a while -- count the drug ads --

Look at your own neighborhood and the increases in health care facilities --

ALL based on increasing poor health of Americans which is being met with less

actual health care at a greater expense.

Suddeny Big Pharma is to be esteemed --

:rofl:

[LeftishBrit]

107. Do you honestly think that ONLY people in profit-driven systems use modern medicine?

Europaean countries with 'socialized medicine' including the very progressive Scandinavian countries vaccinate and use modern medicine.

Canada and Australia and New Zealand vaccinate and use modern medicine.

Cuba and Venezuela vaccinate and use modern medicine.

The only groups who don't are those in poor countries who *can't afford to*

We should be campaigning to give ALL people the basic human right to modern medicine. Not trying to deprive people of that right.

And the Native Americans - and the Europaean invaders - of old times had about half the life expectancy of modern times. I would have died in infancy if I'd lived in those times, or probably at any time before, say, the 1940s. I am not prepared to sacrifice my right, or that of my family, to quality and quantity of life in order to fit some reactionary ideology - and there is nothing more reactionary than the rejection of all that has been introduced to help people in the last 100 years or so, and the insistence that we return to a time when only the strong had a hope of survival.

And as regards 'profit driven systems': let's note that Wakefield, in order to save his career, had to move from public practice in Britain, a country with single-payer health care, to private practice in Texas. Doesn't that say something?

[defendandprotect]

171. The issue isn't vaccines or no vaccines .... the issue is CAUTION ....

not only in regard to how these vaccines are being produced but how they are

being administered --

Again, you're misrepresenting the debate --

However, what we do see in America is disease rising -- now 1 in 3 Americans with cancer.

The rise of the for-profit health care system has only increased poor health in America.

You quite rambled vs alternative health care -- but remember that breastfeeding was pretty

much disparaged in the last generations by our system of medicine . . .

Understand what I presume you understand about breastfeeding now, who was right?


And as regards 'profit driven systems': let's note that Wakefield, in order to save his career, had to move from public practice in Britain, a country with single-payer health care, to private practice in Texas. Doesn't that say something?

What do you think that says?

To me it suggests that Wakefield was under such severe attack by this corporate industry

and costs of a lawsuit trying to defend himself that from these attacks that it became

necessary for him to move. I have no idea why it happened -- do you actually know?



Meanwhile, we have a Big Pharma industry with ever last one of the drug companies having been

involved in defrauding government/Medicare --

We have Big Pharma charging Americans 4X and 5X and 6X what citizens in other countries are

being charged for these same drugs --

If that adds up to a corporate system which shouldn't be seen as mercenary --

and which should be wholly trusted -- then I'm amazed!

[LeftishBrit]

193. The point I'm making

is that Wakefield comes from a system which is NOT mercenary or corporate-driven. We have had a National Health System since 1948.

'Meanwhile, we have a Big Pharma industry with ever last one of the drug companies having been

involved in defrauding government/Medicare --

We have Big Pharma charging Americans 4X and 5X and 6X what citizens in other countries are

being charged for these same drugs --'


But I am one of those 'citizens of other countries'! And so was Wakefield until he CHOSE to move to a system that was more corporate-driven. That is my point!

If vaccinations are all about profit-driven medical care in America, then why do countries that are far more socialist than America use vaccinations, including the MMR?

The whole world, including the whole vaccinating world, is *not* America! Modern medicine should not be equated with the American healthcare system!

[Adsos Letter]

33. K&R No such thing as too much exposure on this one. n/t

[No Elephants]

38. TWELVE patients is a study on autism? No independent verification, eitiher?

Maybe there is more to this, but I am baffled as to why anyone in medical circles ever considered this so-called study worth a twig to begin with.

[defendandprotect]

39. Agree with you ... lots of questions on this ....

and as the cases of autism in children continues to grow I'd continue

to question the way these vaccines are being used --

Would be quite frightened to be a parent of a new born these days!

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. So why do you still think about vaccines, if it's autism you're worried about?

Haven't you understood the point of this: the connection between autism and vaccines was made up by Wakefield. He falsified the data to make it look real.

[defendandprotect]

48. Parents and common sense connect autism to the use of these vaccines ....

Why are you so ready to ignore something injected into newborn bodies with such

speed and quantity?

Wakefield may have produced a fraudulent study -- that doesn't mean that the

connection of vaccines to autism doesn't exist.

It is not coincidental that we have seen the rise of this new disease along with

the use of the vaccines.

And the figures continue to rise -- it's a national health problem being shunted to

the side.

It also very well corresponds to the criminality and corruption in the health care

industry -- for profit doesn't work except to attract mercenaries into medicine.

Big Pharma -- and all of the drug companies involved -- have each and ever one

defrauded Medicare -- so I don't look to them as nice guys. I look to them as a major

part of the corruption and crime wave in medical industry and drug industry.

Poisoning the public is of little concern to them -- read the side effects of all of the

drugs they're marketing -- and that's only what they originally find.

[robcon]

52. You're quite the strident DUer

"Poisoning the public is of little concern to them -- read the side effects of all of the

drugs they're marketing -- and that's only what they originally find."

'Poisoning the public' is exactly what Pharma wants to avoid. It'll drive them out of business... look at what's happened with other medicines that had unexpected or deadly effects. The lawsuits are crippling.

I get the feeling you don't care about logic or facts, defendandprotect - you're just interested in finding a boogie-man.

[defendandprotect]

55. The corruption in the Drug industry is part of the record ... an atrocious record ....

See Sen. Bernie Sanders on that one --

Not one of the Big Pharma companies has not defrauded the government in the

Medicare programs --

And, many of these drugs have done life-long damage to patients -- which,

fortunately, Sanders is tracking.

What we are all interested in, let's hope, is sufficient attention being paid

to this huge rise in autism -- and in investigating the drug companies.

I get the feeling you don't care about logic or facts, defendandprotect - you're just interested in finding a boogie-man.

Yes -- you've simply dedicated yourself to defending truth and investigation and not in

defending vaccine companies!

:rofl:

[Capitalocracy]

62. I actually agree 100% that the drug industry is horribly corrupt.

They have a history of corrupt testing practices, which they're now doing in third-world countries where it's harder to catch them, and they are causing a lot of deaths doing so. And the business model itself, where for serious diseases, they often charge an outlandish cost for the few who can afford it and let the people who can't die a horrible death, as is the case with the newer HIV/AIDS medications, is evil and causes death as well. But this one just doesn't happen to be true.

[defendandprotect]

146. "But this one just doesn't happen to be true" ... what one?

Yes -- it's a corrupt industry -- across the board --

and as long as we have these mercenaries involved with providing our "medcines" we

will have this corruption ---

No different from oil industry -- if you want alternative energy -- NATIONALIZE THEM.

If we want true health care in America and better answers -- NATIONALIZE HEALTH CARE!

MEDICARE FOR ALL -- no for profit medicine.

[snooper2]

69. you are arguing

with somebody who doesn't think we landed on the moon FYI :hi:

[Psephos]

93. That gave me a laugh...until I looked it up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4342604#4345352

yikes

[X_Digger]

105. It's not the only laugh that poster provides

Apparently we were all vegetarians until the evil patriarchy of modern man forced us to start eating meat.

[Capitalocracy]

108. And I'm a vegetarian. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

64. There has been study aftyer study disproving any connection between autism and vaccines

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22542677/ns/health-mental_health/
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/123/2/475?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=autism&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&volume=123&issue=2&resourcetype=HWCIT
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKN3050545420080131
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=119649
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3640898.stm

and so on.

[defendandprotect]

147. And, as long as we have Big Pharma/corporate mercenaries involved with vaccines ...

and health care -- private medicine for profit --

they will not be believable --

any more than oil industry is believable re Global Warming --

If we want truth about these issues -- we need to end medicine for profit in America.

What we have for all our $$ is America getting sicker every day, while corporations

get ricker!

[Throckmorton]

75. Nuclear testing

It is my contention that the rise in Autism over the past 20 years is due to the parents and grandparents exposure to radionuclide's from atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons from the 40's to the 60's. Which also corresponds nicely to the dates in question.

Once again, correlation is not causation.

[defendandprotect]

149. Of course, it's possible ... but our corporate-run government has been lying to Americans

for so long we have little truth now on any issue --

We need to overturn this for-profit system and get these mercenaries out

of our health care!!

[Odin2005]

148. 500 years ago it was "common sense" that the Earth is the center of the Universe.

I am not swayed by reactionary appeals to so-called "common sense" and biased anecdotes, I am swayed by verifiable facts. I guess that is a benefit to being on the spectrum.

There is no epidemic, quit repeating that lie.

[defendandprotect]

150. No -- that was the edict of the Vatican .... and male-supremacist religion ....

We're talking about the common sense of the parents -- and common sense

in general -- not edicts of organized patriarchal religion ....

However, once we have set up for profit systems like our current privatized

health care industry, it does attract mercenaries --

There is little faith left right now in our corporate run for profit health

care industry --

Americans keep getting sicker -- Big Pharma keeps getting wealthier -- and

their corruption keeps growing along with the side effects of their medicines!

Long past time to move onto a non-profit medical system --

[Odin2005]

159. What a load of bullcrap!

trying to reason with you = :banghead:

[defendandprotect]

175. You seem to have run out of debate ... but clearly you want more for-profit health care ...

[Odin2005]

197. I support Single Player. If you think Canada supports quackery you are mistaken.

[LeftishBrit]

185. I AGREE that non-profit medical systems are best...

but the point is that countries with non-profit medical systems *do* vaccinate! There is no necessary relationship between vaccinations and for-profit medicine!

The UK has had *single-payer health care* for *60 years*. And we vaccinate! And Wakefield is British - or at least was, until he rescued his threatened career by moving to a place that *did* have a profit-driven medical system!

[Capitalocracy]

45. 12 would be enough to justify more research

and show the possibility of a link... if it weren't a total fraud.

[defendandprotect]

50. This is a national emergency in the rise of autism ... response was study of 12 patients??!!!

The rise of autism corresponds with the rise of the use of these vaccines --

and the corruption of the drug industry -- a constant defrauder of government.

More evidence to investigate vaccine manufacturers and Big Pharma than to

challenge the observations of the parents who cared for these children!

There's a huge link between Big Pharma defrauding government/Medicare and producing

toxic drugs with huge side effects -- that's what we should be investigating and

studying. For profit medicine doesn't produce any better results than corporate-

sponsored elected officials!!

[jeff47]

59. No, it's not

Autism is a fairly new diagnosis. The broad spectrum of conditions that are now considered autism means that a lot more people are changing from "undiagnosed" to "diagnosed with autism".

[defendandprotect]

96. No -- it's a new disease ... not new diagnosis ... though agree that many ignored cases ...

are now being confirmed --
\

[Odin2005]

103. Bullshit, where do you think medieval tales of "Changelings" come from? it ain't new.

Our 3rd president was quite likely on the spectrum, as were Cavendish, Einstein, Wittgenstein and Dirac. "New" my rear end.

[defendandprotect]

115. Wow ... are you off--!! Fairies, stolen children . . .

American Heritage® Dictionary
A child secretly exchanged for another.
A changeable, fickle person.
A person of deficient intelligence..

YourDictionary.com
a child secretly put in the place of another;
esp., in folk tales, one exchanged in this way by fairies;

Archaic a changeable person; turncoat; Archaic a feeble ...




We've long had people of lesser intelligence with us, though we recognize now that

there is some connection of Down's Syndrome with a lack of folate in the mother's

diet -- and, of course, people who were deaf and called "dummies" because they

couldn't speak or understand what was going on. However, this has nothing to do

with autism. These children/babies were highly intelligent until the time of the

vaccines.


And, no, there were very, very isolated recent indications of autism developing as

a new disease -- but what's new? America is constantly creating new healh issues

for its citizens -- with 1 in every 3 Americans now having cancer!

And, 50 million uninsured ... sure looks like a nation and economic system that really cares!!!


:eyes:

[joeglow3]

165. You don't think an increase in cancer has to do with longer lives???

????

[defendandprotect]

172. What longer lives ... ?

as far as I know lifespan in America is dropping ---

We rank 37th in health care !!

Look around you -- what do you see on TV other than ads for drugs --

Look at the long list of side effects for any drug you are taking --

and when the side effects take hold, they'll simply prescribe another

drug with yet more side effects!

Look around your neighborhood at the prominence of health care industry --

yet we know Americans are getting less health care while their costs for

health care are constantly rising --


See Nixon tapes re Kaiser ... and the great idea to charge more for health

care while providing less and less care!

[joeglow3]

190. Really?

"as far as I know lifespan in America is dropping ---"

Where do you get that from?

http://cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056796.htm

"We rank 37th in health care !!"

-Okay..... And what drugs are other countries taking that we don't take?

"Look at the long list of side effects for any drug you are taking -- and when the side effects take hold, they'll simply prescribe another drug with yet more side effects!"

-Sooo, is your argument that companies come up with vaccines/cures and then modify them in order to have side effects? Wow. Simply amazing.

[One_Life_To_Give]

192. Records Disagree on life expetency and infant mortality

CDC Lists current US Life expectancy at 77.9yrs
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lifexpec.htm

Compared to a 1850 Life Expectancy of 38Yrs
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

Pre-Columbus Native Americans Life Expectancy depending upon tribe ranged from 18.6yrs for Knoll Indians to perhaps almost 43yrs for Pueblos. http://books.google.com/books?id=9iQYSQ9y60MC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=american+indian+life+expectancy+1492&source=bl&ots=INTrYIkx-b&sig=jiWqB4OonxwgHN3B8AvUxcuAI28&hl=en&ei=0msnTYW3Ko-q8AbVlNzWAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=american%20indian%20life%20expectancy%201492&f=false

Most striking is the difference between life expectancy of a newborn versus a ten year old in the 1850 data. This suggests that
approx. 1 in 3 children born in 1850
never lived to see their 10th birthday.

Doesn't sound like something I would choose to see again.

[boppers]

125. I think jeff's point was the name for the diagnosis, and surge in labeling.

Eugen Bleuler invented the name in 1910, to describe schizophernia, Asperger gave it the modern meaning in 1938.

[defendandprotect]

151. Autism springing up as it has in huge numbers is wholly new ....

[Odin2005]

160. Diagnosis rate does not equal actual rate of occurance.

[defendandprotect]

173. When autism springs up in counries where it has been rare ....

it certainly does equal a higher rate of occurence --

and as these vaccines were introduced into other areas, autism rates

also sprang up in those areas --

Interesting, how so many here find the corporate-word so trustworthy in

the case of vaccines --

[Odin2005]

198. Because autistics went undiagnosed or misdiagnosed in most places until recently.

Asperger's did not exist as a diagnosis before 1994. Most people thought "High-Functioning Autism" was an oxymoron until Temple Grandin came along. A lot of lower-functioning autistics were misdiagnosed as mentally retarded.

[Teaser]

204. I'm autistic

and wasn't diagnosed until nearly an adult. Because people were looking for it then.

When I was a child everyone just assumed I was an asocial kid, obsessed about patterns and really difficult-to-transition.

I'd lay odds that 90% of the increases in diagnoses is simply an effect of increased vigilance for the signs.

[jeff47]

119. The only new thing is the name

The condition itself has been around for a long time.

As a professional computer geek, I meet lots of people who are pretty obvious cases of Asperger's who are too old to have been diagnosed with it. Back when they were kids they were just 'nerds'. Now it's an "autism spectrum disorder". That change makes the numbers appear much more dire than they actually are.

[defendandprotect]

153. Autism was RARE .... wherever these vaccines are introduced . . .

cases of autism show corresponding increases -- and continue to rise.

Just as it has here in America --

[Odin2005]

161. That is false.

[defendandprotect]

174. That is your opinion ....

all reports I've read are that no one ever heard of autism before --

the cases of it were highly RARE --

[Odin2005]

199. That is because it was poorly know before the 1980s.

Which was when Asperger's papers were translated from German to English. Most autistics were undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. A very common misdiagnosis was Childhood Schizophrenia. John Elder Robinson, the designer of KISS's pyrotechnic guitars, was not diagnosed until his 40s.

Educate yourself on the subject rather than making a fool out of yourself.

[defendandprotect]

209. No -- it was recognized and it was highly rare ....

Are you kidding? You want to talk about diagnosis and treatment for mental illness

to prove the trustworthiness of the health care industry?

Try ... "Murder on the Couch" --

and the betrayals of Freud --

Health care that was truly torture -- and especially the betrayal of women and the

reality of sexual abuse.

[Odin2005]

225. *FACEPLAM*

Quit injecting things irrelevant to the topic. Idiot psychoanalysts are not the topic.

[LeftishBrit]

97. Indeed.

There was a recent study in the UK where children and adults of a wide range of ages were assessed for autistic disorder according to current diagnostic criteria. The rate was about 1% and there were no age differences. Older adults were just as likely as children or younger adults to meet current criteria for autism. This means that there is no 'autism epidemic' and that people who had no diagnosis, or some other diagnosis (e.g. 'childhood psychosis' or 'emotional disturbance' or unspecified 'mental handicap') in the past would now meet diagnostic criteria for autism.

[X_Digger]

106. Science is good for that..

'consumption' becomes 'cancer' becomes 'lukemia' becomes 'chronic myelogenous leukemia'.

If there's one thing science is good about, it's taking a group of somethings, identifying determinant characteristics, and separating a group into smaller groups- lather, rinse, repeat. We see it in biology (taxonomy- kingdom down to subspecies), medicine ('nervous stomach' -> 'irritable bowel' | 'crohns' | ...), even subatomic physics.

It's no surprise that as time goes on, there are further gradations to general conditions, which means more diagnoses- especially with a condition like autism that has a broad spectrum with multiple funcitonal axes.

[jeff47]

58. It was a starting point

Usually a small study will be done to do a 'quick' test of a theory. If that small study works out, then there'll be funding for a larger study.

That happened in this case. Several larger studies were performed based on the findings of this small study. They all proved there was no connection. However, antivax people clung to this study, since it aligned with their beliefs.

[defendandprotect]

155. My personal view is that challengers continue to understand what parents are

describing --

and when weighed against the corruption and mercenary nature of Big Pharma --

there seems little room for all of this esteem for corporate-medicine Big Pharma!

[LeftishBrit]

194. A single-payer National Health Service is NOT corporate-medicine Big Pharma!

[defendandprotect]

211. Obama just cemented Medicare NOT being permitted to negotiate with Big Pharma ....

on drug prices -- guaranteeing the Big Pharma their obscene profits on drug sales

in America!

Your comment is unclear -- try again if you wish --

[LeftishBrit]

219. OK

My point is that the scandal about Wakefield occurred in BRITAIN, not AMERICA.

He has been disgraced and struck off by an organization associated with the National Health Service.

The profit-driven medical care system in America is thus utterly irrelevant to something that has happened in a country with a totally different (single-payer) healthcare system.

[defendandprotect]

220. Thank you --

I'm sure you can see, however, how that "scandal" is impacting our discussions

and notions of the safety of vaccines here? As any study produced anywhere on

this subject would also be doing.


Would you also agree that the enormous profits generated by our private health

care system and Big Pharma's inflated pricing on their drugs sold to Americans

also eventually effect other nations and their health care systems? Obviously,

there are right wing pressures to reduce health care benefits in European

countries which would benefit and increase the profits of private interests.

Those attempts to "starve the British health care system" go back to at least

Thatcher. Rather than creating an upward spiral of health in every nation, these

huge profits are creating a downward spiral in actual health care.

[jpak]

65. Anti-vaccine = anti-science

these folks are right up there with creationists and global warming deniers

yup!

[defendandprotect]

156. For profit corporate medicine = corruption of medicine and science

[E-Z-B]

184. And corruption of the media. I trust anyone telling me that something isn't bad for you.

20 years later, stories change.

[defendandprotect]

213. Remember ... "Toxic sludge is good for you ... " ... ???

And those wonderful old videos with "doctors" pushing cigarettes!

[forty6]

189. If you are a parent, here is 15 minutes of Youtube education for you, in case there's

any doubt.

All the facts, they were all out there before this latest press release.

Very informative background videos about this whole controversy, done by a physician. All data by Wakefield was contradicted in many following studies before this most recent revelation that is referred to in the OP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6AJUWFXrBI&feature=fvw

first of two videos, follow link to second from the first.

All the facts were known months ago, and yet some parents on TV newscasts in my area today don't want to vaccinate their children!!!

I hope they can watch this.

[defendandprotect]

212. Recap the video if you want ....

And I side with the parents -- they are the ones who make sense --

[Odin2005]

232. I don't think you understand what "sense" means.

[defendandprotect]

234. I don't think you understand what "sense" means.

[Posteritatis]

236. I prefer the term "pro-polio." (nt)

[Freddie Stubbs]

74. Dr. Jenny McCarthy will not like this

[TroglodyteScholar]

114. I did a news search and couldn't turn up any comment from her.

How odd.

[Overseas]

238. She said years ago that she knew it was a questionable study.

I think it was on CNN that I heard her say that. She said knew that study was suspect and that it might not be the mercury preservatives that caused autism, she just wanted more investigation.

Why can't we give her and other parents more serious discussion about the many vaccinations we give our kids at such a young age? Why do we give so many of them all at once, beyond it being a cost-saving measure? Perhaps giving more at once does reduce exposure to the preservatives, which could be a good thing. Why can't we go ahead and examine that?

Might there be a safer way to schedule the vaccinations? Are we grouping the wrong things together? Have we ever investigated different combinations?

It is curious to me how many more vaccinations our kids get than those in the UK do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule

We all know the value of vaccinations and herd immunity. We've got that. But when we see the TV shows explaining that again, they just say-- So We Should All Comply and not question them. If those shows discussed more of the reasons certain shots are grouped together, and how the preservatives are minimized, and how our procedures compare to those of other countries, that could increase compliance.

Right now we just say-- You are stupid. Just like dumb blonde Jenny. Get with the program!

[semillama]

86. I like this thread

It points out exactly the type of back-pedaling nonsense that gets posted whenever another sacred cow of the anti-vaccination set gets gored.

[neverforget]

118. This reminds me of the climate deniers that are mostly on the other side

Believe the science when it suits them

[defendandprotect]

158. In this case we are to believe that it is corporate-medicine which is the hero...?

Every other evidence of corporate-medicine in America points to lies,

mercenary instincts -- and rising health problems in America with new

diseases being created routinely -- 1 in 3 Americans with cancer now!

But, Big Pharma is the one corporate hero?

Despite the fact that every one of these drug companies has defrauded government/

Nedicare?

Despite the fact that Big Pharma is charging Americans 5X and 6X what their

drugs cost in other countries?

Suddenly, these are the one center of corporate-power we should be worshiping

and trusting?


:eyes:

[neverforget]

191. The science doesn't lie, the corporations do

I don't trust or worship any corporation.

[HuckleB]

227. If you're so worried about lies, why do you push so many baseless conspiracy theories?

Cut the crap.

[semillama]

183. or creationists. n/t

[defendandprotect]

214. "A belief system is the end, not the beginning, of all wisdom" --

[newscott]

101. About damn time. This sounded like a crock from the get to.

[defendandprotect]

162. Why ... we know that vaccines have made our own troops seriously ill ...

why suddenly is corporate-for profit medicine believable?

Every one of these drug companies has defrauded govenrment/Medicare --

and are still permitted to engage in new busienss with government/Medicare!

Every one of these drug companies are mercenaries charging Americans 4X and

5X and 6X what citizens in other nations are paying for these same drugs!


Do you trust the oil industry re Global Warming --

Do you trust the private health care industry and insurance industry to decide

on your health care?

But, suddenly, Big Pharma is the sole exception to corporate corruption?



:eyes:

[Teaser]

203. *YAWN*

is BIG ACADEMIA in on the conspiracy too?

[defendandprotect]

215. I think you mean corporate-academia ... last I looked .. !!

[xor]

235. I like how you think...

I'm going to start doing that too. If anyone disagrees or has a contradictorily information to what I believe, then I'll just prefix their group title with the word 'corporate'. Particularly useful if it happens to be a group/person who I usually agree with on many things, but for one reason or another differ in opinion on a specific topic:

corporate-academia
corporate-socialists
corporate-homosexuals
corporate-homeless-people
corporate-pit-bulls
corporate-indy-media
corporate-web-developers-who-still-insist-on-using-non-standards-bullshit (this one might be fairly accurate)
corporate-communists
corporate-unemployed
corporate-make-your-own-it's-fun

[Capitalocracy]

123. In other news...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-balancebracelets

The people that make those bracelet things have admitted they do jack.

[HuckleB]

195. Kick...

[Overseas]

237. The Wakefield study was debunked years ago. I guess it is useful to pretend that is the only reason

parents object to vaccinating their kids. HEY LOOK! It's all a fraud. Come on folks, go sign up to get 20 vaccinations on your little kids right away!

It seems really odd to me that we're going over the Wakefield fraud again. Why? I read about his study being debunked years ago. I heard the lightening rod Jenny McCarthy say she, too, realized that study was suspect. She said she had heard there were questions with that study, but she still wanted answers about why the incidence of autism had been rising.

And yet we are still just telling the desperate parents-- SHUT UP! YOU'RE STUPID TO BELIEVE GARBAGE! -- without addressing their real concerns.

We give our kids a lot of vaccinations at a very early age. We all understand their value and we all know that herd immunity is important. The value of vaccination is promoted very widely and we all want to participate. But how many vaccinations are our kids given, and at what age? How many did we get and why have those amounts increased so greatly?

Look at the vaccination schedules in the UK versus the USA. Why are our kids given so many more than the others get? Can't we schedule them differently, to lessen the impact on very very young brains? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule

If we actually addressed more of those very real concerns, instead of pretending those parents are idiots who will believe anything, we would make a lot more progress in getting more compliance.

[HuckleB]

239. The study and Wakefield were debunked, but much more has been found about it.

Further, your ridiculous red herring, and your desire to ignore the story do not give your supposed concerns any credence. Science has addressed those concerns. Further, science could have done much more, if not for the conspiracy theories of the anti-vax crowd, which developed rampantly in the wake of Wakefield's fraud.

New study: many vaccines at once OK for kids
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/05/new-study-many-vaccines-at-once-ok-for-kids

On-time Vaccine Receipt in the First Year Does Not Adversely Affect Neuropsychological Outcomes
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/peds.2009-2489v1

Why Does It Matter What Happens To Andrew Wakefield?
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2011/01/why-does-it-matter-what-happens-to-andrew-wakefield

No one is pretending that parents are idiots. However, the anti-vax crowd certainly has been doing that very thing for years.