Chavez could give up extra powers before they expire

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Deutsche Presse-Agentur

Chavez could give up extra powers before they expire
Jan 15, 2011, 22:35 GMT

Caracas - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Saturday declared he would be willing to give up extra emergency powers before an 18- month sunset provision had expired.

Speaking to Parliament, Chavez said he could even give them up within four to five months.

'I have no problem with that,' Chavez said.

Parliament in December gave Chavez the power to govern by decree for 18 months, in order to deal with an emergency caused by heavy rainfall. The measure was called 'Ley Habilitante' - or state of exception.

He used it to enact decrees on finance, economy and security policy.

Read more: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/americas/news/article_1612035.php/Chavez-could-give-up-extra-powers-before-they-expire

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dipsydoodle]

2. The United States, poking its nose in as usual ,

charged Chavez had found another way to justify 'autocratic powers' in violation of the Inter-American Democratic Charter.

Now what exactly has a State of Exception measure to deal with a heavy rainfall issue in Venezuela got to do with the USA ?

[sabbat hunter]

3. He should

give them up right now and then never ask for them again, or take them.

When you rule by decree you are a dictator.

[sabrina 1]

8. When you use that decree to help the poor rather than the wealthy

you are a democrat.

Here of course we have a WH that works for the wealthy, by decree. That decree being that unless there is a certainty that this is what you will do when you get there, you will not get there.

I wish we had a Chavez in the WH. I doubt he would have appointed Goldman Sachs greedy, corporate tools to oversee the finances of this country. That's worked out really well for the working class, NOT! But for Wall St. they couldn't have better representation if they had they bought and paid for it!! Wait, is it possible that they did? :eyes:

Hilarious to see anyone from this sad country pointing fingers at a country that actually does take care of its poor.

[social_critic]

13. One of the First Decrees Chavez Signed: Changed Military Districts

One of the first decrees Chavez signed changed military districts, and decentralized the military command structure. This was done because Chavez is afraid his own military command may try a coup. By decentralizing the command structure, he makes it harder for senior military personnel to carry out the coup. The basis for the coup would be Article 350 of the Venezuelan Constitution, which states the people (including the military) can start an insurrection and overthrow the government if it is violating the Constitution.

As of right now, the government is indeed in serious breach of quite a few constitutional provisions, which means it's conceivable Article 350 can be invoked to overthrow Chavez. And this scares the jeepers out of him, so the Enabling law was passed, and he used it immediately, to make sure the military command wasn't about to pack him off to Cuba.

This is one reason why Mr Palmer, the US Ambassador designee, made the statement that Venezuela's military is somewhat upset with Chavez, and is the reason why Chavez went ballistic and decided he could not accept Palmer as US Ambassador. But there are indeed signals quite a few people high up in the government think Chavez has stepped way out of line, and his own people may decide to take him out - with the military playing a big role.

I think the key to the whole thing will be Raul Castro. Since Cubans play such a big role in the military, intelligence, and security system in Venezuela today (and Chavez' bodyguards are all Cubans), if Raul wants Chavez out, he can have Chavez out. And he may decide Chavez is becoming too much of a communist for his taste. After all, Raul is migrating Cuba away from communism. If I were Chavez, I would start wondering if the Cubans around him may not be about to sell him out.

[Judi Lynn]

20. Please provide credible sourcing for your charges Chavez has Cuban bodyguards,

and has involved Cuban people in his internal military machinery.

You can't drop material like that at a message board, and expect anyone to simply assume it's true. You need to find your source and post it, prove there is a foundation for such extreme claims.

[social_critic]

33. Wikileaks reference for Cuban involvement

These of course are state department cables, so you can judge whether they are reliable or not.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11883465

This is from the Economist. See the post towards the bottom:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2010/12/hugo_ch%C3%A1vezs_venezuela

A Gustavo Coronel essay:

http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/asce/pdfs/volume15/pdfs/coronel.pdf

References for Cuban involvement in the bureaucracy:

http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/02/12/en_ing_esp_cuban-presence-in-ve_12A3425893.shtml

My personal experience: I was at a Venezuelan government office last month, and one of the Venezuelan bureaucrats mentioned to me the documents I wanted would be issued later, because "The Cubans have to release it first". As far as I can tell, they have put Cubans in place in government offices with the authority to release documents - probably to avoid corruption, which has become a really serious issue. So I waited for an extra 10 days while the Cubans did their thing.

It's also well known - if you happen to live in Caracas - that Cubans are placed in all notary public offices and have to give the go ahead for documents to be stamped.

[Judi Lynn]

66. The Wikileaks thing says the Cubans are training the Venezuerlan body guards. Period.

That doesn't seem hard to fathom, nor does it seem dangerous.

The Israeli former military man, Yair Klein trained the death squad members in Colombia. Now THAT'S dirty, and vicious.

From the BBC article:

~snip~
The level of Cuban involvement in other agencies of the Venezuelan government was harder to confirm, he wrote.

The embassy "had received no credible reports of extensive Cuban involvement in the Venezuelan military", but there were reports that Cubans were training Mr Chavez's bodyguard.

But Cubans were likely to be involved "to a great extent" in agricultural policy, as well as in an identity card scheme.

The ambassador added that it was impossible to tell how many Cubans were working in Venezuela.

Cuba's biggest and most public involvement in Venezuela is in the provision of tens of thousands of doctors and nurses who provide basic health services in poor areas.

In return, Venezuela provides Cuba with subsidized oil.

Your Economist opinion piece represents the opposition, is wildly stuck in an attack mode, as usual, completely ordinary for this publication. No one who knows the Economist's position on the democratically elected President of Veneuzela would expect anything different from them. Pathetic accusations, absurd conjecture.

Gustavo Coronel has been a joke to many DU'ers for many years here. He could not be more directly connected to US interests, US right-wing groups, and publications, he's their errand boy. There's nothing he would ever say I would consider reading, he's pure pompous right-wing slime.

We had an anti-Chavez poster who quoted Coronel freely, who's gone, now.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1248194#1255336

Then as your last resource, you pleasure us by linking "El Universal," a pro-coup, anti-Chavez rag which pumps out anti-Chavez crappola 24/7, nothing but.

Why not use real material, based on valid information? It doesn't back up your charges?

[social_critic]

80. Depends on what you call real material

I googled the subject, and found dozens of references, but all of them were in blogs, or where material written in Spanish by Venezuelans. I don't think the subject is so important to be published in the media, and it's evident Venezuelan papers would not publish something like that, it's too dangerous for them to do it. I have first hand knowledge about Cubans working in notary public offices, and in ministries. Let's face it, you don't live in Venezuela, and you don't get to see what we see when we are inside.

[ChangoLoa]

87. The Cubans do work in the identity/ travel related public offices. My last passport was renewed by

a mixed Cuban-Venezuelan public office.

[ChangoLoa]

86. Venezuelan Army is full of Cuban "assessors". The regime doesn't deny it

Go to aporrea.org ... ah, too bad you don't speak Spanish...

Here's the "Frente Civico-Militar Bolivariano" (The "Civilian-Military Bolivarian Front"~~ PSUV party militias) talking about the Cuban assessors and declaring that they have no Command position in the Venezuelan Army:

In a radical chavista online newspaper
http://www.aporrea.org/actualidad/a99382.html

Here's another declaration by the military concerning the same issue:

In a non chavista (opposition) newspaper*
http://politica.eluniversal.com/2010/04/24/pol_art_militares-cubanos-e_1874329.shtml

*El Universal wasn't pro-coup, they refused to sign the recognition of Carmona's govt.


The story of the Cuban bodyguards is widely spread in Venezuela but hasn't been admitted by the regime so I won't make any comments on that uncertain rumor.

[sabrina 1]

39. Chavez's military stopped the U.S. coup against him.

So, I think he has little to fear from them ~

He could not accept Palmer because Palmer was anti the Venezuelan government, a lackey for the Global Corps and Chavez is not a fool. Good for him for standing his ground.

[social_critic]

44. There was no US coup

That's a bunch of bs. The coup was carried out by Venezuelan military personnel.

[sabrina 1]

48. The Venezuelan coup was backed by the U.S. Condi all but

admitted it and since then it's been pretty well-established. It is bs to say otherwise. The military stood by their president when traitors, working with foreign entities, attempted to overturn a democratically elected government.

Chavez was way kinder to those traitors than this government would have been. But he learned from it and is rightfully very careful about which American representatives are allowed into the country now. The same goes for other newly democracies in that region of the world.

Other coups backed by the U.S. Two coups were backed by the U.S. against Aristedes of Haiti and in other S.American countries several coups are known to have been backed by the U.S. Even the U.S. doesn't bother denying its long, sordid history in that region of the world. Now, they are moving forward from those dark days and establishing democracies chosen by THEM, across the region.

The U.S. doesn't like democratically chosen governments. They tend to put their people before Multi-national corps. Dictators otoh are very good for U.S. 'interests' having no such interest in making life better for their people.

In Tunisia right now, the people have risen up against yet another Dictator friend of the U.S. The U.S. has a history of backing coups, as in Iraq when the instated Saddam Hussein eg, everywhere they have 'interests'. I don't know why it is such a shock to you.

[social_critic]

50. Well established by whom? Chavistas who like to blame everything on the US?

I saw what went down that day. If you WERE in Venezuela, you would realize what you say is baloney. The march went to Miraflores palace, Chavez gave orders to bring out the tanks, and the military took him out, disobeyed his orders to fire on the crowd. Afterwards they put him back in power.

Besides, the problems Venezuela faces today aren't caused by a coup in 2002. You guys like to discuss coup this coup that, uS imperialism blah blah blah. Talk about changing the subject so you don't have to face the real debate.

So while you go on and on about Condi and Bush, inflation is running 30 %, GDP is going negative quarter after quarter, we are getting mugged or killed by gangs of armed thugs roaming the streets, there's no good paying jobs, there are shortages, the roads are collapsing, hospitals stink, and they got cubans running the notary public offices and installing light bulbs at the same time they take Venezuela's oil to Cuba, for free, to prop up a dinosaur regime like Castro's. This is the socialist miracle you are so proud off? Give me a break.

[sabrina 1]

61. I'm not going to waste time on a comment that is so full of lies

I would not know where to begin. I will simply repeat, it is a well established fact that the Bush administration backed the coup against Chavez.

Economists in this country, some of the most highly respected, are giving kudos to Chavez's economic policies and are predicting that they will begin to bring Venezuela's economy around in 2011 and begin the reduction of inflation.

This is a global problem, brought about by the Global Capitalists, affecting every country who had anything to do with them. Chavez has handled it better than most. He has NOT forced the working class and the poor to pay the gambling debts of Global Capitalists as European countries are doing and the U.S. So kudos to him for that. The man loves the poor and the working class and that is why the rich hate him.

[Judi Lynn]

68. That outrageous, and clearly bogus account of what happened has NEVER been published anywhere

other than your own post.

Absolutely astounding. It sounds like the ravings of the town drunk:

The march went to Miraflores palace, Chavez gave orders to bring out the tanks, and the military took him out, disobeyed his orders to fire on the crowd. Afterwards they put him back in power.

Preposterous!

http://machosteakjet.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2008/12/andygriffith11.jpg http://i.ytimg.com.nyud.net:8090/vi/ke5Mr5eCF2U/hqdefault.jpg

[social_critic]

82. Everybody knows the military put Chavez out because he gave orders to fire on the crowd

This hasn't been really disputed - the only ones who try to re-write history are communists and chavistas who will never face the truth. The reason why Chavez was able to return was precisely because the military was confused - there was no real plan to carry out a coup, and their reaction was disjointed - in a sense all they wanted to do was cool things down and avoid bloodshed.

And this is the real reason why Chavez was given the power back, they met and realized the whole mess was beyond them, the Carmona gang was trying to use the opportunity in an illegal fashion, and common sense prevailed. Notice I said common sense prevailed, I would never support what they did. But the topic revolves around whether this was a US coup or not. I don't think the Bush administration had the brains to do anything, period. Look at the mess in Iraq. They reacted to events, rather than plan anything.

[DeSwiss]

59. ....

[LeafyGeneva]

62. Your post is full of misinformation

Article 350 of the Venezuelan Constitution does not mention insurrection, the constitution, or the military.

Article 350:

The people of Venezuela, true to their republican tradition and their struggle for independence, peace and freedom, shall disown any regime, legislation or authority that violates democratic values, principles and guarantees or encroaches upon human rights.

And here is the article of the Venezuelan Constitution which authorizes and restricts "enabling laws" which permit the so called "rule by decree" by the President.

Article 203:

Organic Laws are those designated as such by this Constitution, those enacted to organize public powers or developing constitutional rights, and those which serve as a normative framework for other laws. Any bill for the enactment of an organic law, except in the case of those defined as such in the Constitution itself, must first be accepted by the National Assembly, by a two thirds vote of the members present, before the beginning of debate on the bill. This qualifying vote shall also apply to the process of amending organic acts. Laws defined by the National Assembly as organic acts shall be sent, prior to promulgation, to the Constitutional Division of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice for a ruling on the constitutionality of their organic status. The Constitutional Division shall reach a decision within ten days of receipt of the communication. If the Constitutional Division rules that the law is not organic, such the law shall lose the organic status.

Enabling laws are those enacted by a three fifths vote of the members of the National Assembly to establish the guidelines, purposes and framework for matters that are being delegated to the President of the Republic, with the rank and force of a law. Enabling law is to set the period for the exercising thereof.

The initiative for introducing legislation belongs to:
(1) The National Executive Power.
(2) The Delegated Committee and the Standing Committees.
(3) Members of the National Assembly, at least three in number.
(4) The Supreme Tribunal of Justice, in the case of laws relating to
judicial procedures and organization.
5) Citizen Power, in the case of laws relating to the organs com-
prising the same.
(6) Electoral Power in the case of laws relating to electoral matters.
(7) The voters, in a number at least equivalent to 0.1% of all per-
manently registered voters.
(8) The State Legislative Council, in the case of laws relating to the
States.

And here is a link to a somewhat more balanced opinion piece discussing the issue followed by an excerpt from said piece.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2199

It is important to note that this type of power-transfer is allowed under the Venezuelan constitution of 1999, which expressly permits the President to issue executive orders specifically within these issue areas. Of course, the constitution continues to guide the country's overall legal framework, which is to say that no "decree" can supercede constitutional law.

What's more, this "enabling law" is not new to the current constitution. Venezuela's previous constitution allowed for similar powers shifts to the executive, and you can be sure that past presidents took advantage of this authority on multiple occasions throughout the 70's, 80's and 90's. Here are a few examples:

In 1974, Congress gave President Carlos Andres Perez the right to "rule by decree" on a number of economic matters, which he used to pass a slew of new regulations-instituting a minimum wage increase, freezing the market price of "necessary" goods, instating tax relief on agricultural activities, increasing government pensions, and even establishing new state institutions, including the National Institute of Housing and an Industrial Development Fund.

But Perez was a close ally of the US government, so there was little controversy from Washington.

Ten years later, in May 1984, Congress again gave authority to the President, this time Jaime Lusinchi, to deal with the country's financial crisis by decree. He enacted a complicated exchange scheme, which was different for various sectors. For example, he extended a fixed exchange rate (4.3 bolivars to the dollar) for the payment of foreign debt and for Venezuelan students studying abroad; a second rate (6 bolivars to the dollar) for trade in the oil and iron industries; and a third (7.5 to 1) for the commercial and financial sectors. A fourth, "fluctuating dollar," constantly changing by market forces, was in use for everything else.

Nobody balked at all this, certainly not on the international scene. Lusinchi is remembered for hosting the first-ever visit of a Pope to Venezuela, and left office a few years later with what at the time was the highest approval ratings of an outgoing Venezuelan president.

In 1993, interim President Ramon Jose Velasquez used these special "decree" powers to retool the country's debt and reform the financial system. Once again, nobody-well, nobody remembers much about Velasquez at all. He was sort of a historical footnote, serving only 8 months in office.

[Judi Lynn]

67. So interesting seeing those former Venezuelan presidents named who used this authority,

WITHOUT the shrieking from the U.S. American right.

Pitiful, isn't it?

The facts you've shared are important. Thanks, so much.

Welcome to D.U., LeafyGeneva. :hi:

[social_critic]

84. Articles 350 and 203 as the Venezuelan people interpret them

Article 350, when it states "shall disown any regime, legislation or authority that violates democratic values, principles and guarantees or encroaches upon human rights", is interpreted by Venezuelans to mean the people can take up arms if necessary - to disown means to carry out acts against the government which exercises authority, and in this case the people would ignore the regime, its legislation, and its authority.

Article 203 does not give the National Assembly the right to delegate its power beyond its term - I think this is a common sense issue most rational human beings understand. This Chavista National Assembly chose to delegate its powers BEYOND its term. In other words, the Chavistas saw the incoming National Assembly would have significant opposition representation, and dared to eviscerate it by giving THE LEGISLATIVE POWER OF AN INCOMING ASSEMBLY to the president.

You know, one reason why neo fascists and communists are seen as a cancer upon society is precisely because they twist and turn laws and constitutions to fit whatever they want. When I put them on the balance, and judge them, I don't see much difference between right wing types like Cheney and Rumsfeld, and left wing types like Castro and Chavez.

[social_critic]

91. Past instances were limited and were exercised with caution

I believe this is the fourth or fifth times the chavista national assembly gave Chavez the right to rule by decree - in 10 years. This by itself can be considered an abuse. Furthermore, the instances when the power was delegated in the past - and you list three in 30 years or so - were limited in scope to economic matters. Also one could argue a Constitution which allows a branch of government to delegate its powers is flawed, and if the constitution does allow it, such a move should be exercised with extreme care and with very limited scope.

This isn't what we see in this case, where the president was given power to do anything he wants. And he already has shown his willingness to use the broad powers, he issued a decree changing the structure of military districts within days (analysts believe this was done to decentralize military authority and avoid a coup).

Venezuelanalysis isn't a balanced site. It's a chavista site run largely by Eva Golinger, an American who passes as Venezuelan - speaks Spanish with an English accent - and is a rabid propagandist for the government.

I continue to repeat the same point I've made in other posts: it doesn't make sense to say a National Assembly can delegate its power BEYOND ITS TERM IN OFFICE. This is what Chavez and his supporters claim, and this is clearly unconstitutional and anti democratic. You can quote venezuelanalysis, the pope, and Aristotle if you want, but anybody with common sense realizes this is eminently anti-democratic. And this is the reason why the OAS secretary general stated he felt the legislation to give Chavez such power was a troubling development, and should be discussed by the member states, to consider what to do about Venezuela.

[ChangoLoa]

94. So Chavez has used decree powers twice more in 12 years than his predecessors in 40?

Interesting.

How can the deputies of a Parliament delegate legislative decree powers to the executive for a period extending 18 months after the deputies' mandate?

[sabbat hunter]

26. when you do anything

by decree you are not a democrat, you are a dictator.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

28. would you also be a dictator if you follow the constitution? n/t

[social_critic]

34. Unfortunately Chavez isn't following the Venezuelan Constitution

This is the reason why he's backing off now, and yesterday stated he was willing to consider cutting off his enabling law (the one which suposedly gives him the power to rule by decree for 18 months).

As the OAS Secretary General has stated, it's doubtful an outgoing National Assembly can delegate its power to legislate beyond its term in office - but this is what the Chavistas claim can be done. Because the Supreme Court is packed with chavistas, there's no recourse to that branch of government either, which means many Venezuelans are either fleeing the country in large numbers before the fascist dictatorship is fully in place, or they are starting to discuss Article 350 of the Venezuelan constitution, which gives the people the right to start an insurrection if the government is breaching the constitution.

This is getting to be a very critical time for Venezuela. Hopefully violence can be avoided, because it leads to nothing good anyway. It's better to use peaceful resistance and follow Ghandi's example. If they don't, I think there's going to be a terrible outcome, a lot of people will be killed, hundreds of thousands or possibly millions will flee, and Venezuela will be ruined even more than it is now.

[sabbat hunter]

42. There are lots of dictators

that 'followed the constitution'. Granted dictatorial powers aka rule by decree under a constitutional provision.


rule by decree = dictatorship

[sabrina 1]

41. You mean when the U.S. president issues an executive order

Of course most of our presidents use those powers to help the wealthy. And btw, Chavez has stated that he will probably give up some of his powers. Which were GIVEN to him, not taken.

I guess that blows the 'dictator' smear ~

[joshcryer]

78. The US President's executive order powers are highly limited. To compare it to decree is *nonsense*.

There is absolutely no comparison between an executive order (order to to the executive branch of government) and decrees (the creation of new law that applies to all citizens).

[totodeinhere]

27. Democrats do not govern by decree, no matter whom they might be helping.

Or to put it another way, if you govern by decree you are a dictator. There are plenty of examples of dictators helping the poor, but they are not democrats.

[DeSwiss]

9. You mean like our signing statements? n/t

[joshcryer]

4. After losing the majority I would find that to be a very noble move.

We'll see if he does.

[social_critic]

14. Chavez didn't lose the majority in the National Assembly - he lost the popular vote

The National Assembly vote went 52 % against Chavez, but his party, the PSUV, managed to get a large majority of the seats because they gerrymandered the districts. Chavez didn't want the new incoming assembly to have much say in new legislation - to avoid debate in the Assembly. The Assembly could still pass the laws he wanted, but debate would be intense, and its flaws would be exposed. And of course it may take a couple of weeks to pass a law, rather than the few hours it takes for Chavez to prepare and sign his decree. It's easier for him to be a dictator than to be president.

[Judi Lynn]

21. The right wing has always attempted to claim the reason the oligarchy wasn't well represented

in the National Assembly was Hugo Chavez' fault.

WE KNOW the opposition decided NOT to run candidates during the last election. They withheld their candidates. OF COURSE the result was far, far more from the people's side. The natural result would be that when they DID run candidates, there would be a substantial pick-up.

Don't even imagine you can come here and pull the wool over DU'ers' eyes. Many Democrats here have been watching Venezuela a long, long time.

[social_critic]

29. Judy, you are out of phase - what you know isn't true

The LAST election took place in September 2010. The opposition did run candidates, and they won 52 % of the popular vote. You see, Judy, what you know isn't true. You are probably confused because in the PREVIOUS elections the opposition did decide not to run candidates. But they eventually realized it made more sense to run as a united front, and to work within the system even if it was rigged and crooked. This means that today, even if they have less than 50 % of the assembly due to gerrymandering, they can claim rightly they did get 52 % of the vote.

I think it's fairly simple, you have to study harder and make sure your posts are right if you want to debate the issue properly.

Many Democrats have been watching Venezuela for a long time. And so what? I question whether those who continue to think Chavez is a good guy pay close attention to what's going on, or only limit themselves to skimming the surface and reading the "feel good" posts we see here.

For example, yesterday I had a pro-Chavez writer question whether the crime rate in Venezuela was as awful as I said it was. When I posted several references, another individual who evidently had no idea of what crime is like in Venezuela (nor bothered to read the references) said "well, there's crime everywhere".

I'd like to close this by pointing out that Chavez, in his speech to the new National Assembly, which he gave yesterday, faced the truth and agreed crime was a serious issue. And he did this because Venezuelans keep hammering at it, and he realizes his lack of popularity arises largely from his own incompetence and that of the people he has surrounded himself with.

And since I'm discussing the issue, here's some references again:

The Telegraph, from the UK:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/3184293/Venezuelas-murder-rates-surpass-Colombias-under-Hugo-Chavez.html

From Worldtravelwatch:

http://www.worldtravelwatch.com/10/09/venezuela-violent-crime-rate-remains-sky-high.html

Quote: "Venezuela is facing a crime crisis of such proportions that its murder rate in 2009 was dramatically higher than Iraq’s, a country with a similar size population and active war zones. More than 19,000 murders occurred in Venezuela, making it one of the world’s most dangerous countries. Small gangs are responsible for much of the crime, and they are usually well armed and use their weapons at the first sign of resistance. Violent crime occurs throughout the country, with gangs often setting up roadblocks to look like police checkpoints and sometimes impersonating police officers. This type of crime often occurs on the main road to Caracas from the international airport."

Venezuela is so dangerous, there's no way I would recommend to anybody who doesn't REALLY know what they're doing to travel ANYWHERE. Insurance companies won't give you life insurance in the US if they know you travel back and forth to Venezuela, this is also an issue if you think you can run the risk using insurance as a back up. Furthermore, the ambulance service isn't working, and it's not possible to hire a reliable private service either, so cross your fingers you don't get in a car accident. The only reasonable way to survive is to stay below the radar, dress poorly, drive a fairly large old vehicle, drive it slow, don't stop on the street outside, and never go out at night, when it's like the Wild Wild West.

[sabrina 1]

54. That last link, the hyberbole in that article, 'Venezuela more

dangerous than Iraq' has been completely debunked. I guess you haven't followed up on that.

The crime rate in some U.S. cities make it impossible also for people to even think of going there as tourists. And our president has acknowledged that fact. As has the Sec. of State, Hillary Clinton. All good leaders will acknowledge problems in their countries, and Chavez is to be admired for doing so in this case.

[joshcryer]

77. It has not been "completely debunked." Venezuela has more murders than Iraq.

[social_critic]

92. Caracas has the highest murder rate for a capital, period

Debunked? Caracas wins the prize - it is the most dangerous capital on the planet.

If anybody has any doubts who is reading this, just google "Venezuela Crime 2010" and read a sampler. Make up your own mind.

I suppose you also admired Chavez when he said the health system was in crisis, a shambles, and he was going to do something about it - which he failed to do:

http://213.251.145.96/cable/2009/12/09CARACAS1551.html

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)61215-X/fulltext

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/08/world/fg-healthcare8

[joshcryer]

32. Thanks for the correction, I thought popular != win was only here in the US.

[social_critic]

36. The system needs fixing

Venezuela has one of the most gerrymandered systems on earth. But they do have elections, even if the results get ignored when the government loses.

US style democracy has turned out to be a pretty bad example for others to follow. I think we should modify the system to use a "many votes" system. This has been discussed in blogs in the internet for years, and Scientific American published an article about it about 20 years ago. The many votes system means a person can punch more than one box on the ballot for a given position -say for President.

Gerrymandering can be fixed if the Constitution describes how the districts have to be drawn, because otherwise districting can be such a joke. The districting in Venezuela is so bad, the opposition got about 40 % of the seats with 52 % of the vote.

[sabrina 1]

56. But how could a 'dictator' lose the popular vote?

Anti-Chavez people make me laugh. They can't be consistent. First, 'he's on his way to being a dictator', then 'he lost the popular vote'. The two don't go together social_critic. Eg, Saddam always got 99% of the vote. Dictators always do.

And, he wanted his party to have more say???? Stop the presses! Lol!

Pssst, that is politics, in every democracy fyi. I mean should Obama eg, want the Republicans to 'have more say'?

I know you're trying hard, but you're not making much sense.

[social_critic]

93. Chavez is an autocrat, on his way to being a dictator

How could Chavez lose the popular vote? He wasn't running in the September elections, they were for the national assembly. His party controls the National Elections Commission, and this Commission gerrymandered the districts to make sure the chavistas had maximum advantage. The final vote tally gave the opposition 52 % of the popular vote, but only 40 % of the Assembly seats.

Poll results by private polling agencies began to show a significant shift against the neofascists (aka Chavistas) after the elections, when the government reacted by dismissing the vote counts and the outgoing assembly began to legislate in an emergency session a series of laws to muzzle the media, control the internet, etc. They also packed the Supreme Court with chavistas, some of which had been previously indicted for criminal acts. In other words, they mocked the people.

During the Christmas break, there was an ominous sense on the street that people may start using Article 350 to start a rebellion. Chavez got scared, and he issued a decree dividing military districts in such a fashion a coup by the military would be much harder to carry out.

But the people kept organizing to carry out massive street protests in January. So he punted and declared the University Law, which had the student body ready to hit the streets and fight, to be flawed - then he asked the INCOMING assembly to declare it null and void, which of course the did in early January. Chavez also mentioned he thought the law giving him the right to rule by decree was for too long a term (this he said on Saturday). Right now, seeing the way people have reacted, Chavez is in a defensive and appeasing posture. Given his past behavior, he is regrouping.

I would expect them to move to control the media tightly, including both print and airwaves, implement the new Internet control law, which will allow them to block social networks being used to organize street action. Once they have the media muzzled and they have locked down the internet, they'll move on to control the universities and make other moves, gradually dismantling democracy and implementing a fascist dictatorship.

I don't think Chavez is socialist in the sense that his quest for power is more that of a megalomaniac, and the people around him seem more interested in stealing and getting rich rather than really helping the poor or making things work.

[DissedByBush]

5. A president I could admire

Would absolutely reject even the idea of being granted such powers in the first place.

[sabrina 1]

6. But how could that be?

Chavez, according the far rightwing haters of South American democracies is a dictator!!

I'm sure they'll find something nefarious about this. They work hard to demonize anyone who believes the poor deserve as much opportunity as the rich. Those poor wealthy Corps, Chavez's reduction of poverty meant a little less cash for them and they just can't get over it. I wish he would run this country for a while. Take care of the greedy Wall St. bankers once and for all.

[cstanleytech]

10. Yes of course everyone who doesnt support Chavez

on everything is a member of the far right, thank you for opening my eyes to this.

[sabrina 1]

11. No problem. That's how it always was ever since he was elected.

And when the Bush crowd backed the coup in 2002 every Democratic board on the internet was completely supportive of him and exuberated as they watched the Venezuelan people defeat the U.S. backed coup. I will never forget how exciting that was. There were so few things for the left in this country to be happy about back then, but that was one of them, to see a Bush backed coup in a Latin American country defeated and Condi's face as she realized she had basically revealed that they were behind it, and now had to accept the duly elected president, elected twice, once at the ballot box, and again on the streets.

On rightwing boards though, the fury was intense. The usual 'commie' 'treason' 'dictator' garbage they are so well-known for was rampant against democrats who had supported a president who was so popular with his own people and opposed the continuation of the brutal U.S. backed dictatorships the rightwing here so loves.d

So yes, you could not find a democrat who opposed the Venezuelan people's choice. Now, though, after all the paid-for anti-Chavez propaganda in the U.S. media, sadly, a few people on democratic boards spout the same garbage once seen only on rightwing boards.

[social_critic]

18. it's not paid for propaganda, dear

I live in Venezuela. People here don't watch the US media - I think some like to watch the sports on CNN, and NTN24 does have some following, but forget the other garbage, we don't even get it on the cable except for Fox, which is in English and nobody cares for, it's a right wing joke for "conservative" goofballs in the US.

What we do see is Venezuela being destroyed by your dear Chavez - first hand, no media involved, we get to see it and feel it day by day. What we see, breathe, and endure, has nothing to do with the US government. Don't insult Venezuela, people in Venezuela are smart enough to understand Venezuela is being destroyed - and this is the reason why the Chavista party didn't get the majority vote in the last elections.

Your friends, my dear, are kaput. They are no longer the majority. They may have the power, but they have no support. And eventually, after they destroy the country, they will fall. It will take time, but they will go.

[sabrina 1]

40. Then you must know you are in the minority. I have friends who

live in Venezuela also, and their worst fear is a return to the way things were before Chavez was elected, back to Venezuela being a poverty-stricken, illiterate nation, beholden to Global Corps. The wealthy of course have had to give up a few things so they are not pleased with his government more fairly distributing Venezuela's wealth and education the poor so they do not need to be treated like slaves by the wealthy elite.

And he paid off Venezuela's debt to the IMF, making the country independent of those influences. My friends understand the huge problems Venezuela had but are very pleased with what has been accomplished so far and plan to vote for him in the future.

'They have no support'. You wish.

[sabbat hunter]

43. Chavez has also

done nothing to stop the rampant crime in Venezuela. He has also in the last 12 months devalued the money twice (which is a huge inflationary tactic). The current inflation rate is 25% (officially, unofficially it probably is higher) and have an official unemployment rate of 9%. Their oil production is down as well.

[sabrina 1]

46. Sigh, You must be reading the western press, The Economist,

The NYT's notorious anti-Chavez anti-fact-based Simon Romera et al.

You: Chavez has also done nothing to stop the rampant crime in Venezuela.

Not so. Here is what Chavez is doing to stop crime in Venezuela:

Chavez: Security a Priority/Combating the Violence of Poverty



President Chavez speaking to members of the new national police force created to fight crime.

In addition to addressing the roots of poverty and crime through social programs and inclusionary policies, the Chavez government is also dealing directly with day-to-day violence through the creation of a new police force, the National Bolivarian Police, and a heightened security presence throughout the country.

On Wednesday, Minister for Interior and Justice Tareck El Aissami, oversaw the permanent deployment of National Bolivarian Police, National Reserve, Homeland Guards and officials from the Transit Authority to secure the 47 metro stations in greater Caracas. Over one thousand forces from these four state security bodies will police the main artery of public transportation in the Venezuelan capital during its hours of operation, in an effort to reduce criminal activity and ensure commuter safety.
A nationwide security deployment also began earlier this year, the Bicentennial Security Deployment (Dibise), combining National Guard, counter-narcotics and national police forces charged with combating drug-trafficking activity and reducing incidents of kidnapping, homicides and general crime. To date there have been thousands of arrests and tons of drugs and illegal arms confiscated.

As part of the creation of the National Bolivarian Police force, a new University of Security was inaugurated earlier this year, which will provide in depth professional academic and physical training for aspiring officers. Human rights and studies of social inequalities are required material for all cadets, in an effort to build a non-corrupt, non-repressive, socially conscious security force.

This pioneering effort will create Venezuela’s first professional police force and will eventually result in the phasing out of other non-professional, corrupt forces operating on a local and regional level.

Anything coming from the agenda-ridden Western MSM needs always to be double-checked when it comes to oil rich countries that have chosen to nationalize their oil and spend most of the profits on their own people.

[social_critic]

49. The Crime rate is higher in Venezuela under Chavez

What you are using is plain propaganda. The crime rate has gone up under Chavez. Everybody in Venezuela knows it. His central police force sucks, they are nowhere to be seen.

Chavez has been in office for ELEVEN YEARS and things have got worse EVERY YEAR. Caracas is a war zone, and everybody who lives there knows it.

All foreign governments are warning their nationals to take extreme care when traveling to Caracas.

President Chavez can't miss a photo op, and there always be chavistas who are ready to post the photographs. But I'm sure the relatives of the tens of thousands killed know their relatives got killed BECAUSE CHAVEZ DOESN'T REALLY CARE.

Most Chavistas are into it for the money, they are corrupt, they love to steal, or they love to get property and handouts. There are very few honest chavistas left around, and those who are honest hate the government.

To top it off, you are out of date. Chavez apologized yesterday on national TV and said he realized he was doing a lousy job. Things are getting so bad, even his royal highness had to face the piper.

[sabrina 1]

53. I could go on posting actual facts, but it would be a waste of time

I can see that. You are offering only your opinion. My friends in Venezuela, eg, blame the opposition for much of the crime against union workers, eg, and their allegations are backed up by facts. Facts established by credible investigators who have proven that most of the union workers killed in Venezuela were pro Chavez supporters.

Chavez has increased drug arrests by over 40% this past year so your claim that he is 'doing nothing' is simply wrong.

I have provided you with facts, you respond with the same old opposition factless propaganda.

I could post link after link from credible sources demonstration that contrary to your opinion, Chavez has done plenty to fight crime in Venezuela.

And his economic policies, according to some of the best economists in THIS country are going to decrease inflation in 2011 and begin a turn-around and recovery of Venezuela's economy. I wish we could say the same about THIS country.

I get it, you hate Chavez. We have people here who hate Obama and blame him for everything from drug addiction to the high rate of divorce, but they too never really provide anything to back up their assertions.

I will leave you to your opinions. I prefer to deal in figures, in facts and to speak to people who are not blinded by partisanship.

[DeSwiss]

58. +1000

[joshcryer]

74. He clearly hasn't done enough.

[ChangoLoa]

88. Weren't you the one saying that Venezuela was full of illiteracy before Chavez?

That talks a lot about your credibility and logic.

"deal in figures, in facts..." "blinded by partisanship"... LOL
:nopity:

[social_critic]

97. We are not discussing crime against union workers, dear

we are discussing every day crime. People getting shot to take their wallets and cell phones, gangsters entering homes to rob those inside, drive by shootings, children being kidnapped, women being raped. Your "friends in Venezuela" don't exist.

Decreasing inflation from 30 %? Big deal. So he's going to drop inflation to 25 %. The poor are still left sucking wind because their wages or other earnings don't keep up with inflation.

You don't get it. I don't like a government run by incompetent thugs who use the flag of populism to steal and ruin a country. The figures are still there: CRIME INCREASED DURING THE 10 YEARS CHAVEZ HAS BEEN IN POWER - AND TODAY VENEZUELA HAS ONE OF THE HIGHEST CRIME RATES IN THE WORLD. CARACAS IS A WAR ZONE, the people live in fear for their lives and their property, and the government jaws and issues pretty pictures, but does nothing to stop the criminal tide.

[social_critic]

45. Chavez' opposition took 52 % of the vote in the September elections

You can drone on with your propaganda, but facts are facts. The majority voted for the opposition in the last elections - September 2010. Nobody is talking about going back to what was before. But I can assure you, the majority wants Chavez out.

[PufPuf23]

51. Look at the USA midterms and huge gain by the GOP

Does that mean the USA, DU, or the world community want POTUS Obama out?

The propaganda against Chavez has been non-stop for years and certainly Chavez is not perfect. He has re-arranged Venezuelean society in an eglatarian direction and gave voice to indigenous, minorities, and the poor.

You are blowing serious smoke up an orifices if you do not realize the USA backed the 2002 coup and subsequent oil sector strike. Chavez has freed Venezuela from the IMF and his support in Latin American is ascendent among a majority of the other countries.

I expect that Chavez will leave office under law. Both GWB and POTUS Obama have acted outside the Constitution and International law in war and have made decisions under emmergency powers to these ends.

Have you ever watched The Three Stooges?

[joshcryer]

75. It appears the US system isn't nearly as gerrymandered.

In the US the popular vote reflected the winning party. That is, the Democrats won the popular vote for the Senate, but lost the popular vote for the House, at least in 2010 elections.

[ChangoLoa]

83. More importantly, it isn't exclusively gerrymandered by the Central Government

In Venezuela, all the gerrymandering was conceived in Caracas' National Assembly after a "rule dy decree" period for the President who gave that power to the Assembly.

[sabrina 1]

57. Lol, but I thought he was a dictator?

You're getting yourself all confused. Dictators don't have opposition parties, let alone opposition parties that beat them in elections.

I know, you'd like to have it both ways, but you better settle on one or the other as you're making yourself look like you just support the U.S. backed illegal opposition working in Venezuela to do what the U.S. has always done in that part of the world, destabilize democratically elected governments.

You just proved, btw, that Venezuela is, as is well-known anyhow, a healthy democracy where the government is chosen by the people.

[joshcryer]

79. He said he was "on his way to becoming a dictator."

[sabrina 1]

95. He said many things, most of them confused hyperbole and very

short on anything to back them up.

[social_critic]

98. Not confused at all - I deal in facts

I happen to know quite well what's going on in Venezuela - it is the victim of a group of people who are slowly driving it to a dictatorship, a dictatorship which resembles more the fascist populism of Mussolini than socialism. It is militarist, corrupt, engaged in personality worship, led by incompetent individuals who have managed to ruin the economy, the electric system, the public health system, and are causing massive crime waves and brain drain as the middle class leaves the country by the hundreds of thousands.

It is characterized by sheer corruption and stupidity, with decisions such as subsidizing gasoline at 5 cents per gallon, and using currency control with up to three different tiers - which lead to enormous corruption and the destruction of national agriculture and industry.

I have posted dozens of references in this thread alone. And I speak with authority because I happen to live in Venezuela. Let me give you a tip: look up cognitivie dissonance.

[sabrina 1]

102. Were you born in Venezuela?

Living in a country gives you 'authority'. We have people who live in this country, some of them rabid rightwingers, eg, and they speak with zero authority because they do not speak the truth.

So simply living in a place provides you with no special authority. In fact it may be that you have an agenda which colors your views while those who are observers and students of the country and its history and who have spoken to actual Venezuelans, have a far less biased view.

There are lots of people in Venezuela who do not have that country's best interests in mind. They want the wealthy restored to the positions they were in before. As my friends there tell me, they cannot get over not being able to use the Venezuelan poor as virtual slaves, or not being able to control the country's resources.

You have provided ONLY opinion, which has been noted and pretty much debunked, even before you offered it actually as it is merely repetition of anti-Chavez propaganda which we are very familiar with here in the U.S.

[social_critic]

17. Please assume the proper personality position

Don't forget you should stand on both feet, with arms held up, as you carry out the personality worship ceremony towards Chavez.

Trust me, I'm an expert. I have had to sit through his four hour speeches, which requires special bladder control (or proper dehydration before you enter into the holy of hollies). So I know the proper rites, when to applaud like a trained seal, and of course how to control your facial expression so they don't mark you as an enemy of the state for showing anything but absolute support and admiration for "el comandante".

The key in your case, since you are not one of the chosen, is to always express admiration, and to remind people anything said to criticize Chavez has to be inspired by far right wing fanatics, the corpo-fascist media, or the CIA.

By the way, one thing you should not do is express support for anything until Chavez pronounces himself. Recently we saw the lackeys in the outgoing National Assembly pass a new University law. The law was opposed by almost everybody in Venezuela, but some innocent Chavistas stuck their necks out and started defending the law. To their surprise, Chavez, seeing the resistance movement growing so large, decided to punt and called on the NEW assembly to cancel the University law. This left many of his supporters in DU and other left wing forums twisting in the wind.

So remember, when it comes to new legislation or pronouncements by anybody other than Chavez, do NOT express support until the Maximum Leader puts his finger in the wind, and figures out what he wants to say. Once he says it you are of course expected to be a loyal personality worshipper and go at it with enthusiasm. After all, this is what personality worship is all about.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[social_critic]

30. Please abstain from using bad language

I'd rather hear why you disagree with me. And if you can't take a little joke, I'm sorry. Personality worship is a serious issue in Venezuela, and indeed it's a problem in all of Latin America, where caudillismo has been bad medicine for 200 years.

And indeed I HAVE had to sit through several hours of Chavez speechmaking. And it does take a large dose of patience and bladder and face control to live through it, because nobody in their right mind would dare stand up to go to the bathroom on national TV when the Commander is giving a speech. And unfortunately the guy likes to talk on and on for hours.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[social_critic]

37. Worthless? Why?

You don't believe Chavez gives endless speeches?

"The fierce morning heat was a memory. The afternoon haze had come and gone. It was the cool of dusk, with shadows stretching as the sun dipped below the Andes. And Hugo Chávez was still talking. The clock showed it was just after 7pm. The Venezuelan president had started at 11am, more than eight hours earlier - a new record. He looked into the camera and grinned: "The first time in history."

AND

"... the most emphatic exercise of power resides in the weekly show hosted by the president. This is where Mr Chávez engages with the masses, announces policies, muses on his political philosophy, and signals the next step in his self-described socialist revolution"

AND

"Last Sunday's show, broadcast live on state television and on the internet (www.alopresidente.gob.ve) underlined how the machinery of government fits around the broadcast."

FINALLY

"Among the phalanxes of red T-shirts arrayed in front of him were governors, mayors and ministers. Advisers hovered just off camera with the maps, reports, statistics and phone numbers which the president, wearing an earpiece, would occasionally request.

As he spoke, the information ministry in Caracas packaged segments of quotes into government press releases emailed every few minutes. By the Guardian's count there were 19, including one celebrating the eight-hour record. It detailed the other programmes which came close to that benchmark."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/sep/25/venezuela.television

The article is old, by the way. He's no longer popular, and the majority of Venezuelans think he's doing a poor job.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[social_critic]

47. I live in Venezuela

Sigh. Let's see.

Last week they shot a lawyer at the corner of Andres Bello and Los Jabillos, right next to the Chiquinquira. If you go down to the next corner, on Andres Bello, towards downtown, turn left, and you'll hit the bad girls street.

When you go to the airport, there's a new landslide on the right side right after El Limon but just before the tunnel.

There's no fresh milk in most supermarkets, but it's easy to find the long duration milk because it doesn't have price controls.

The satellite cable shows Fox News, but it doesn't show CNN International anymore, which really ticks me off.

When you go fill up with gasoline, the tip is higher than the price of a full tank of gas, if you let them check your oil.

They were going to build a metro station by the Eurobuilding (let's say closer to where the Cubans have the clinic), but Chavez gave orders to close it because it was going to service a middle class area. He forgot tons of people could use it because they go to work in the restaurants and other stores in Las Mercedes. But we know the government makes half baked decisions, don't we? I hate the two sticks with balls on top they installed a few years ago.

If you drive to the US embassy you have to go by the Russian embassy if you are going from the old Texaco station. If you go via Santa Fe, you go by the mall with the Excelsior Gamma. If you go up the hill via the Valle Arriba road, you go by the King David.

In Venezuela they bag your groceries, and the guy will take your groceries to your car, but you got to tip him.

The VIP theater at the San Ignacio Mall is by far the best place to catch a good foreign movie, it's safe, and parking is easy to find. I like to buy the alfajores in the store just below the main theater ticket office.

I hated the Pepsi sign, think the city looks a lot better without it.

Anything else?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

55. Were you born in Venezuela?

[bitchkitty]

63. Well -

Since I've seen so many fantasies posted by you and your friends, you can't blame me for taking anything you say with a grain of salt.

[joshcryer]

72. It appears he adequately schooled you.

[social_critic]

99. Those who practice personality worship are very hard to school

Face it, they won't learn. They are so engaged in their personality worship attitude, there's no way to make them understand. I write here because I know many are reading this in silence, and I hope they do realize Venezuela is living darkness at noon.

[bitchkitty]

107. LMAO!

Hardly. After quite a few years of this, I'm very used to the propaganda from these types. I'm not susceptible to pronouncements from anonymous posters on message boards.

And it rarely changes. The straw men change, but the rhetoric? Never.

[Violet_Crumble]

70. No-one's forcing you to sit through any long speech...

For fuck's sake. Politicians like the sound of their own voices. No-one's forcing you to sit through anything. If you don't like it, turn the telly off. But complaining about how long speeches are does make yr 'criticisms' appear to be just a bit on the petty side...

No-one at DU or any other left-wing forum I've been to has ever done 'the personality worship ceremony', so I don't know why yr claiming people do it...

[joshcryer]

73. We don't know what position social_critic holds.

He may in fact have to sit through those speeches to keep up appearances.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. We don't?? They've made it very clear they hate Chavez....

I'm not sure what appearances you think they have to keep up, though it's worth repeating for yr benefit that he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do and has the same ability as everyone else to turn off the telly if he thinks a politician's speech is too long...

[bitchkitty]

108. And he may, in fact, be a 17-year old at the library.

Just because it sounds legit, doesn't mean that it is legit. You shouldn't believe everything you read.

[social_critic]

100. My dear Violent: the problem arises when one is invited to listen in person

If you are given the honor to go to a Chavez speech, you go. I happen to have been "fortunate" enough to have been invited. And I can vouch for the extreme pain I saw in the faces of some who were unwise and drank before they went through security checks, because it's not possible to turn Chavez off once you are sitting in that select audience. The personality worship ceremony was pure sarcasm. Personality worship is practiced here by relentlessly defending positions not even Chavez defends sometimes.

[social_critic]

15. Chavez is an autocrat - on his way to becoming a dictator

First, let's clarify: I'm neither far right wing nor a hater. I happen to live in Venezuela, and I am very close to the action here, so let's just say I'm an interested party and know a lot more about what goes on than you do.

The reduction of poverty in Venezuela has been due to the high oil prices enjoyed by OPEC nations in the last 10 years. Some government policies have indeed helped the poor, but others have been terrible. The overall balance for the country has been negative.

It may be that some of you put egalitarian policy above everything else, but you are misled, because what Chavez is doing is building a fascist state. Socialism is used as a cover to implement a corrupt system in which those who align with Chavez get to own the large estates, the large homes, and drive the large vehicles. We call them Boligarchs. For example, Chavez' family has been taking over farm land, to create large land holdings owned directly by Chavez family members. His friends and associates are also doing quite well. The other sector which has done very well is the military - many generals are now appointed to high posts, to be directors in corporations the state owns, or to run new corporations they created. This troika of single party aparatchiks, the military/security service, and favored land and business owners is called fascism.

But let's say we accept Chavez is fascist, an autocrat, and lets his family and friends steal. This happens a lot in Latin America. What makes Chavez particularly bad is the way he has allowed a huge crime wave to take things to such a point, the cities are like war zones, and it's impossible to lead a normal life.

Furthermore, he surrounds himself with truly stupid people. Thus we see gasoline subsidized so it costs 5 cents per gallon, incredible corruption (it costs the equivalent of $600 US dollars in "facilitating payments" to get a passport if you are middle class), they have a multi-tiered currency control system which punishes local producers and subsidizes imports, inflation is running at 30 %, the economy is shrinking, and things don't work - including the health system, the educational system, housing for the poor, roads, and electric power generation among others.

[Judi Lynn]

22. We currently are lucky enough to read excellent posts from an American DU'er living in Venezuela.

The message board was also transfixed during the coup as an outstanding DU'er gave us moment by moment information on events as they unfolded.

We have had no shortage whatsoever of absolutely sound, intelligent information from people we trust, who post with absolutely no interest in coersion, persuasion, labeling, name-calling. It's no mystery whom people trust, and whom they do not.

On edit:
The DU'er reporting on events during the coup was living in Caracas, I forgot to mention.

[social_critic]

31. That was quite a few years ago.

If you are referring to the coup in 2002, that was in 2002. I really don't think an intelligent person would judge what goes on today based on what somebody posted in 2002. In 2002, I was living in Venezuela, hiding in my apartment trying to stay out of trouble, and I thought the coup was both illegal and a really dumb idea. Can we go on now to discuss what's happening in Venezuela in 2011, rather than keep living the same event over and over? Trying to use the failed coup in 2002 to cover for Chavez' failures isn't really going to work.

[Judi Lynn]

69. We also have tremendous DU posters who travel to Venezuela, and one who is living there now.

We have input from very reliable, decent people who clearly have no agenda.

Many trust them enormously, after studying their comments.

[joshcryer]

71. I do not believe social_critic has an agenda and I believe their information is reliable.

[Violet_Crumble]

85. I've got a Harbour Bridge I can sell you! It's going cheap!

;)

[ChangoLoa]

89. So you finally bought it?

;)

[ChangoLoa]

90. Why are American posters living in or traveling to Venezuela more valuable than Venezuelans DUers?

Strange logic...

What agenda could any reasonable person have in an internet forum? Do American politicians take decisions after reading DU?
:eyes:

[social_critic]

101. Name them

if you name them, I'll ask them a few questions to see if they really travel to Venezuela, and what they really know. For example, what flows next to Maria Lionza's statue? :-)

[sabrina 1]

60. On the board I was posting on at that time, we too had

and excellent member who was posting from Venezuela as events unfolded. As you say, there are people who you know you can trust and who have credibility.

[ronnie624]

25. Another appeal to authority.

:thumbsdown:

[BrightKnight]

7. perhaps I misjudged him - n/t

[social_critic]

16. Depends on how you judged him

The guy is a fascist autocrat, mixing communism in dollops to justify support by the international extremists who like to flock to communism like flies to dead meat. And Venezuela is indeed becoming a corpse. Autocratic measures, muzzling the press, lawlessness, corruption, and theft prevail, and there is an ongoing flight of the middle class - hundreds of thousands have fled, and hundreds of thousands if not millions are preparing to flee.

The economy is collapsing even as high oil prices prevail, Venezuelan debt is considered extremely high risk - meaning the country may be about to default soon on its debt. And there's no light at the end of the tunnel, the fascist/communist hybrid they created allows too many people around Chavez to steal, he is propped up by the Cuban parasites who are milking billions from Venezuela, and the people are unable to use peaceful means to get the monster off their backs.

If you think Chavez is well on his way to becoming a dictator who is going to destroy Venezuela, a red clad Idi Amin, then you judged him well. Venezuela delenda est.

[BrightKnight]

64. I would not argue with any of that. He could step aside gracefully now. -n/t

[dipsydoodle]

12. Kick

.

[NaturalHigh]

19. I'll believe it when I see it.

IMO, it's much more likely he'll declare himself dictator (oops...president) for life.

[On the Road]

65. No, Chavez Has Done This Kind of Thing Before

as have his predecessors. The powers are indeed temporary. It seems to be kind of a tradition there.

[joshcryer]

76. Um, he's had the powers more than he hasn't.

Really. He keeps getting decree powers.

[sabrina 1]

96. He gets any powers he gets from Venezuelan laws and he uses them

he uses them FOR the people. Our presidents issue executive orders all the time. Wouldn't it be wonderful if one of them were to stop foreclosures until they are proven to be legal? But our presidents don't work for the people. They do what they want the leader of Venezuela to do, take their orders from Multi Nationals and Wall St. so too bad for the American people. I like how Chavez uses his democratically acquired powers.

[social_critic]

103. No he doesn't - he violates the constitution and the law all the time

It's perfectly clear to those who understand what's going on that Chavez runs like a nazi tank over the Constitution and the legal code of Venezuela. Furthermore, what he does is meant to help Chavez and his cronies stay in power. This government has nothing to do with the people, it has to do with feeding the corrupt clique around Chavez, and keeping Chavez in power to his megalomania can be fed and he can keep on selling himself.

Tell us, do you realize he is making his family into super rich oligarchs, who own large tracts of land? I suppose these "details" don't get to you when you read Golinger's and Weisbrodt's trash.

[sabrina 1]

105. Links, please. And from reliable sources. Your ramblings mean

nothing.

[social_critic]

104. it is a tradition for Chavez

His predecessors received the enabling power three times in the prior 30-40 years. Chavez has received it 4-5 times in the last 10 years. The troubling issue is the nature of this enabling law - it was given by an outgoing national assembly to extend beyond its term, encroaching on the powers of an incoming national assembly (which happens to have much more opposition representation). This issue, the idea that an outgoing group of people can delegate the power of an incoming group of people, is what really bothers people. The other issue is the breadth of the delegation. Prior delegations were clear cut and limited in scope. This delegation or enabling law gives Chavez enormous powers.

It also seems you don't understand something that's going on right now: maybe you like it, but the Venezuelan people don't. They don't like to see their votes put in the garbage by the outgoing assembly. 52 % of the Venezuelan people voted for the opposition last September, and that 52 % is incredibly upset because the lackeys in the outgoing assembly voted to gut their choice. And then you wonder why people start either demonstrating or fleeing the country.

[sabrina 1]

106. The outgoing Congress in this country just passed several

laws. What's your point?

[UTUSN]

23. Oh, yaas, living according to one dude's WHIM. Is Naomi CAMPBELL visiting or something?!1 n/t