US child appeals against being tried for murder as an adult

[alp227]

Source: The Guardian

Lawyers for a child in Pennsylvania who was 11 when he allegedly shot and killed his father's pregnant fiancee attempted today to persuade an appeals court not to try him as an adult under America's harsh system of juvenile justice.

Unless the lawyers for Jordan Brown who is now aged 13, can convince the judges to change tack, he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole. He would become the youngest child in US history to be sentenced to be incarcerated forever.

The US is the only country where juveniles are serving life imprisonment without parole under the so-called "life means life" policy. Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18.

Brown is accused of having killed Kenzie Houk, in February 2009 at her home in the countryside about 35 miles north-west of Pittsburgh. According to the prosecution, Brown shot her through the back of the head as she slept in her bedroom.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/25/us-boy-accused-murder-appeals

---

Also, the Supreme Court has ruled against the death penalty for juvenile offenders (Roper v. Simmons, 2005) and life w/o parole for juveniles convicted of non-homicide offenses (Graham v. Florida, 2010).

[Possumpoint]

1. Commit the Crime

Serve the time. Too many times the youth try to use that to get out of trouble.

[ProudDad]

13. I doubt that Mr. Clemons would have agreed with you

Maybe time to find another avatar...

[harmonicon]

16. Just like in Iran.

If you commit adultery, you get stoned. If in Pakistan, you dishonor your family, you can be killed by electrocution. It's only fitting for people who do the crimes to serve out their punishment, right?

[Rage for Order]

21. Trying to see where your comment has any relation to the post you replied to

And I'm not seeing it. How do adultery and dishonoring one's family compare to cold-blooded, premeditated murder?

[harmonicon]

22. You're not seeing it?

It's about punishing people for crimes committed. Different countries have different laws. I'm pointing out other places which have justice systems nearly as barbaric as we have in the US.

[Rage for Order]

24. Nearly as barbaric as shooting a sleeping pregnant woman in the back of the head

And then getting on the school bus and going to school like nothing happened.

I don't think he should get life without parole, though; I was thinking more along the lines of a life sentence with the possibility of parole after 40 years or so.

[RZM]

52. 'Nearly as barbaric'?

You think our system is worse than Iran's or Pakistan's?

Wow.

[harmonicon]

53. Neither of those countries would lock up a child for life.

They do do other despicable things. That's my point.

[Maraya1969]

95. A sarcasm emoticon might have been appropriate if I understand you.

[humblebum]

91. A child is still a child. He was not 18, he was 11. Huge diff. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. lol

[Sonoman]

2. "shot her through the back of the head as she slept in her bedroom."

I would imagine any argument for relief or leniency is going to be an uphill battle.

I sure wouldn't want the little bastard out on the streets any time in the next lifetime.

Sonoman

[msanthrope]

25. The victim was 8 months pregnant, and was found by her 4 year-old.

These are factors that will weigh heavily with any jury.

I can't fathom a reasonable reaction to this. Just glad I'm not a lawyer on the case, or on the jury.

[wisteria]

3. He should be tried as an adult. He was full aware of what he was doing.

I have no sympathy for this kid.

[ProudDad]

14. The judgement center of the brain of the human is NOT fully formed

Until age 25...

But, then, you knew that, right?

[ncdemclt]

29. What?

So what type of sentence should Jared Loughner serve for the shooting of Giffords? He is 22 years old.

[sabrina 1]

106. Sign up 11 year olds for the military!

Lift the ban on smoking and drinking for children from 11 years old on.

11 year olds should not have to live with adults.

I must tell my friend that she can pack up her 11 year-old's stuff and tell him to go find an apartment now. He's mature enough to be able to take care of himself.

Why are we oppressing children like this, making decisions for them re school, food, health care etc. when they are so capable of taking care of themselves?

We and the Saudis have the distinction of being the only two countries where the state kills child criminals. And if I remember correctly, I think the Saudis may have abandoned that policy recently.

Clearly any child who commits a crime like this should not out in society for a very long time. If it is fear of the law that would allow this to happen that drives the effort to try them as adults, then the law should be changed so that they do not get out until there is as much certainty as possible that they are fully rehabilitated.

[reorg]

4. "only the US and Somalia"

except Somalia doesn't imprison children for life and has announced last November they are going to ratify the Convention:

"Somalia to join child rights pact: UN
Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:19pm GMT

GENEVA (Reuters) - Somalia has announced it plans to ratify a global treaty aimed at protecting children, leaving the United States as the only country outside the pact"

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE5AJ0IT20091120

[OnlinePoker]

7. How does a country without a functioning government (Somalia) ratify anything?

Much less enforce it?

[Art_from_Ark]

45. Good questions

[reorg]

47. wrong question

but it could lead you to a pertinent one: What does it say about the government of a country when it cannot even afford the most basic protections to children which they are afforded EVERYWHERE ELSE?

[Recursion]

66. Umm... Iran and China are both parties to the treaty

So it's obviously not a very good treaty, given how both of them treat children.

[alphafemale]

61. If they put the children in prison who would be the pirates and soldiers? nt

[reorg]

65. So, to put those 11-year-old pirates out of their misery

I guess we'll just have to shoot those untermenschen.

[MikeW]

79. instead of posting nonsense .... what is your solution?

[reorg]

92. quit skipping the issue: even in Somalia kids are not put away for life

The US is the only country in the world where this is possible.

The "solution" is more than obvious to the rest of the world: children are not criminally responsible for their actions. If they have caused the death of others - such cases seem to be extremely rare, BTW - they need to be taken care of by educated and compassionate professionals.

So far, it doesn't even appear to be proven that the boy actually did it. In any case, just like with the child soldiers in Africa, you just don't treat kids as if they were adults.

[snooper2]

97. I really wouldn't use Somalia as an example of where kids are taken care of

Somalia Life expectancy 49.8 years

[reorg]

100. Even in Somalia they are not handing down life sentences to children

Only in the US is this possible. It is a crying shame that people would defend this inhuman practice.

[snooper2]

102. They don't have to, they get kidnapped, raped, killed just walking around outside

Get to a point where most of the kids are in some form of school PROVIDED by the government of Somalia then we can go the next step.

[reorg]

104. the kids who become murderers in the US are not properly provided for either

That may be an area where the US resemble Somalia much more than, say, developed European states.

http://www.eji.org/eji/files/20071017cruelandunusual.pdf

[snooper2]

105. JHC

:banghead:

[socialshockwave]

5. No mercy from me.

While I wouldn't want him executed, the little bastard needs to do his time.

[ProudDad]

12. Yeah, right...

All 70 to 80 years of it, eh?

[Luminous Animal]

6. Yep. 11 year olds so cognitively mature I think we should let them drive, vote,

smoke, and drink. Just think of all the time I could have saved by sending my 11 year old out to do the grocery shopping.

[moobu2]

8. We could have sent all the 11 + year olds to Afghanistan.

Of course I'm not serious. A child brain isn't developed enough at that age to fully understand the consequences of their actions.

[FreakinDJ]

50. BINGO - We have a Winner Folks

Not to mention as 1 digs deeper into the back ground of this child there will be mountain of emotional issues surrounding his life. All of which, including these hainous action, occurred before he reached the age of reasoning

[joeglow3]

9. My 8 year old understands the impact of murder

So, if you 11 year old doesn't, I suggest you sit down and have a conversation with him.

[ProudDad]

11. The judgement center of the brain of the human is NOT fully formed

until age 25...

That's why the civilized world has outlawed this sort of travesty of justice...

What part of that don't you understand???

[Doremus]

59. Might as well save your breath. This thread perfectly illustrates the reason we have the highest

percentage of people locked up in prison and spend the highest prison related costs in the world.

The primal lust for revenge crosses party lines. It erases any semblance of reason and turns otherwise intelligent people into unabashed barbarians.

It's not anything you're able to change, unfortunately. Just hope and pray you never have to rely on the ability of your fellow citizens to set aside their deep seated lust for revenge long enough to decide your fate with any objectivity. Ain't. gonna. happen.

[sendero]

69. Yeah..

...we've heard all of this ad infinitum.

GUESS WHAT? 99.9999% of 11 year olds have better judgment than to commit murder. So their "unformed" brains are at least THAT good.

I really don't care what happens to the little miscreant, so long as he is not on the streets.

[MikeW]

70. so your suggestion is send him home and let him walk?

I seriously doubt hes safe to be released into society at the moment.

[Union Scribe]

110. So no one under 25 should be tried as an adult?

[Luminous Animal]

33. Perhaps you should let your 8 hear old stay home alone.

Surely, if he can understand the impact of murder, he is responsible enough to handle any emergency that may arise.

By the way, my 11 year old is 21 now and he is a she and their is a wide gulf between her cognitive abilities (from accepting responsibility to understanding the impact of her actions) between then and now.

[FreakinDJ]

51. Your 8 yr old play video games much

I think your stretching the truth some here - most 8 year olds think you get 2 more replays when you get shot

[joeglow3]

55. He certainly doesn't play games where he is shooting people

Now, he may think he can squat and go into a sewer pipe or run from a monkey, lest a barrel gets thrown at him. However, who in their right mind would let an 8 year old play a game where you are killing people is beyond me.

[FedUpWithIt All]

82. Why not, if he completely understands what death and murder are as well as any adult

why would you feel the need to limit his video game play. You wouldn't try and limit what an adult views or plays, why an 8 yr old? I can tell you why...because a child does not process such things the same way an adult does.

The boy in the OP was a very young child and should be tried as a child.

[joeglow3]

89. No, because we teach him murder is not something to "enjoy."

He has seen plenty of documentaries about war and murder. Him and I watch them and then I take the time to discuss it with him. He knows it is not "fun" to go around shooting people. An 11 year old that takes the time to get a gun, load it, walk into the room with a sleeping person, put the gun up to their head and pull the trigger knows what they are doing. This is not some borderline ethical issue that is difficult for a child to comprehend. If this kid does not know the consequences of killing someone, they need to be removed from society because they most likely never will.

[Xithras]

73. No, your child doesn't.

Research has shown definitively and repeatedly that kids don't really begin to understand the concept of "death" until they're 9-10 years old, and that a full comprehension of what it means to be dead rarely forms before age 12. While kids may understand the FACTS of death, aka "that person is gone", the brain has not yet formed the ability to relate itself to the concept of "forever" and what a persons death actually means for them.

Kids as young as four can make the mental connection between death and certain phrases like "gone forever", "with the angels", and "in the ground", but they're largely just parroting back facts that they've overheard. They know it's definition, but they don't understand its meaning. It's like asking a low-functioning autistic person how you get from their house to the hospital. They may correctly respond "car", but at the same time they probably don't understand what a car really is. They just know that it's an object that exists in their world which they occasionally interact with. They know that cars exist, and they know that cars move them to places, but if you ask them what a car is, they'll give you a blank stare. Their mind doesn't comprehend the question.

Preteen kids and death are largely the same way. Unless your kid is phenomenally advanced, he/she may know that death exists, and can tell you basically what it does, but they don't understand what it really is.

Child psychology is a fascinating subject, and if more Americans would turn off their TV's and read about it a little, we'd handle juvenile justice completely differently in this country.

Imprisoning a preteen child for murder is the moral equivalent of imprisoning a mentally handicapped person for murder. It's an outrage and a violation of their fundamental human rights.

[snooper2]

98. my 14 month old knows to pet the kitty, don't slap/hit

not nice, hurts kitty..

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[harmonicon]

20. What rock?

A pile of rocks called the United States of America. Even on a (I think especially liberally slanted) Democratic website, people espouse feelings that people would be ashamed to admit to in almost any other country. This is why we're fucked.

[harmonicon]

18. Fuck grocery shopping. You should make those little shits work for you.

Get 'em down in a factory, or a sewing sweet shop at least! Smaller hands make smaller stitches! You just don't love America. If you did, you'd be lobbying your congressmen to allow 8 year olds to join the military. If kids really appreciate what they get from Uncle Sam, they should be fully willing to become child soldiers.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. yup. also we should do away w. statutory rape while we are at it

[harmonicon]

15. "Only the US and Somalia"

Just that phrase speaks volumes about how the US has fallen so far behind first-world countries in the last few decades.

[micraphone]

17. 11 years old is NOT an adult..

... or even close...

... It's sort of unfair to expect teens to have adult levels of organizational skills or decision-making before their brains are finished being built...

... It's sort of unfair to expect them to have adult levels of organizational skills or decision making before their brain is finished being built. ... (Et al)

http://www.edinformatics.com/news/teenage_brains.htm

He's not even a teenager yet.

They don't think like us. That's why they are called CHILDren.

[MikeW]

26. that aside ... he certainly cant be let out in society as hes a danger to others

[Luminous Animal]

34. He could at some point if we were a society that delivered on rehabilitation rather than

retribution.

[MikeW]

36. we are a society that delivers justice first, he still has to pay for the crime like it or not

[Luminous Animal]

38. And justice, for an 11 year old, belongs in juvenile court like the rest of the civilized world.

[No Elephants]

48. Depends on your definition of "justice."

[MikeW]

62. I dont agree

Unfortunatly I believe his lack of accptence of what he did and or admission is very telling for that age.

Lock him up until hes 21 and then reevaluate him. If hes a sociopath then Im sorry, hes a danger to the general public and should be incarcerated.

Im sure there are those at DU that think he can be "cured" or treated to be released but there are some conditions that cant be fixed.

[reorg]

67. Yes, in the entire world outside of the US it means justice

not to consider children fully responsible for their actions.

[MikeW]

68. and what about justice for the victim and unborn child? just discard that right?

[reorg]

72. it's an ancient instinct, we call it revenge

The victim is dead and doesn't care anymore, it's mostly the voyeurs of "justice" whose bloodlust is being kindled by the same counter-enlightenment that promotes American exceptionalism. NO other country in the world has a "justice" system that condemns children to life in prison. Even China and Iran and Saudi-Arabia are beacons of reason and sanity in this respect, compared to you.

[MikeW]

86. so you equate upholding the law and justice as revenge?

[reorg]

88. upholding the law means not to put 11-year-olds in prison

pretty much everywhere in the world. Even in the US, the strange desire to send 11-year-olds to prison for the rest of their life doesn't equate with "upholding the law" in many states.

[Xithras]

75. Tragic deaths happen every day.

She could have lost control of her car that afternoon and died when she hit a tree. Her death would have been just as tragic, just as senseless, and yet there would have been no push for "justice".

Tragic things happen, and it's our job as a society to respond appropriately to them.

Justice, especially when it involves children, should ALWAYS be rehabilitative.

[MikeW]

76. so your both saying that we no need for laws and no need for punishment in society? dream on

[reorg]

78. We need no criminal liability for 11-year-olds

That's consensus around the world, with very view exceptions.

[MikeW]

80. something still needs to be done .. what do you suggest

Just let him go home scott free?

[reorg]

87. No, he should be cared for by professionals

who know what they are doing.

[MikeW]

83. none? So your saying that any 11 year old no matter what the crime gets to walk away scott free?

Thats a fascinating viewpoint.

[MikeW]

84. none? So your saying that any 11 year old no matter what the crime gets to walk away scott free?

Thats a fascinating viewpoint.

[MikeW]

85. none? So your saying that any 11 year old no matter what the crime gets to walk away scott free?

Thats a fascinating viewpoint.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

93. Not scot free, but given proper treatment and evaluation

Maybe the kid is a little sociopath, but maybe he's been abused (it wouldn't be the first time that a stepmother or potential stepmother abused her man's chld) and was taking an impulsive, immature way of revenge.

When it comes to criminal justice cases, I sometimes feel as if I'm on some right-wing website. We can truly be a mean society, and it rubs off even on people who claim to be Democrats.

In no other Western country would this kid be subjected to life imprisonment.

[reorg]

101. not just in no other Western country, nowhere else in the entire world

However:

"There are at least 2,225 child offenders serving life without parole sentences in U.S prisons for crimes committed before they were age 18, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International said in a new joint report published today.

While many of the child offenders are now adults, 16 percent were between 13 and 15 years old at the time they committed their crimes. An estimated 59 percent were sentenced to life without parole for their first-ever criminal conviction. Forty-two states currently have laws allowing children to receive life without parole sentences."

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2005/10/11/united-states-thousands-children-sentenced-life-without-parole


Dominic Culpepper – Florida
Dominic Culpepper suffered constant emotional and physical abuse from his mother, who beat him severely and told him she wished he was dead. Dominic’s parents divorced and his father moved out, leaving him with his unstable and violent mother. Dominic was befriended by older men in the neighborhood who used him to deal drugs for them. When he was 14, a drug dealer who had threatened and stolen from Dominic came into his home. Dominic attacked him with a baseball bat. Afraid and confused, 14-year-old Dominic moved the injured drug dealer out of the house and contacted emergency services. Emergency services personnel were unable to save the young man’s life and Dominic was arrested for murder. Although Dominic was only 14 and had used the bat against an intruder in his own home, the State of Florida sentenced him to die in prison.

http://www.eji.org/eji/files/20071017cruelandunusual.pdf

[Xithras]

74. He's not necessarily a danger to anybody.

At 11, his brain isn't fully developed enough to comprehend the gravity of what he did. Assuming that he's in an environment that reinforces the concepts of right and wrong, this realization should develop on its own in time. In all probability, it's already occurred.

In many ways, this reminds me of the Kayla Rolland shooting in Michigan. A six year old boy got mad at a classmate, took a gun to school, and blew away a 6 year old girl. In Bowling For Columbine, the detective who took the shooter famously showed a picture that the boy had drawn after coming to the police station...a house with a happy version of him on it, that he gave the detective as a gift. The kid did not comprehend the gravity of what he had done, and had no understanding of the horrendous crime he'd committed. He was just a normal 6 year old who did a terrible thing, but didn't understand it.

That little boy was never tried or convicted for anything, because of his age. He's now 17, and hasn't killed, maimed, or assaulted anyone else. How did they cure him of his murderous ways? Simple. They didn't leave guns laying around, they placed him with a loving family that cared for him, and they kept an eye on him until he was old enough to know better. That's all it took.

[Danger Mouse]

19. While I think life imprisonment is a fair punishment for an ADULT murderer...

...for somebody who committed murder at 11, that's just plain absurd.

[msanthrope]

23. The victim was 8 months pregnant, and was found by her 4 year-old.

The suspected motive is that Jordan didn't want the baby boy--another son--born.

Now, this was a trooper charge. It's possible it gets whittled down, but it's also possible he gets tried and convicted as an adult.....

This kid got on the schoolbus after killing the victim, and then lied to the police about seeing a suspect.

The gun used? A Christmas gift from the father.

I can't fathom an 11 year-old culpable as an adult--but I can see an 11-year-old who is so devoid of empathy as to do this.

Just fucking awful.

[mrmpa]

30. one of the problems the behaviorists are having with this

is that he is showing no empathy or remorse (sure signs of sociopathic behavior), therefore they are recommending he be tried as an adult.

[msanthrope]

41. Yes. Because otherwise, he's out fairly quickly.

Hard case. And the law doesn't shed much light on the situtation.

[happyslug]

44. He is doing that on advice of Counsel, i,e, the right NOT to incriminate himself

Thus why the trial Judge permitted the case to be appealed BEFORE Trial, no one has even had face this problem before in Pennsylvania. If a child exercise his right NOT to incriminate himself, can that be used against him in a motion to waive this case back to Juvenile Court?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. And what kind of father would give an 11-year-old a gun?

Even in a culture where hunting and target shooting is common place, wouldn't a prudent parent keep the kid's gun locked up unless the kid needed it for a specific purpose?

[msanthrope]

39. A not uncommon one in rural PA. Sadly. n/t

[JI7]

42. he seems like one of those people who will continually commit violent crimes

you know how you read about something bad that happened and then you read about the person whod id it and their record and history of other crimes .

[Heywood J]

31. I'll be one of the first to say that (some) kids from about 15 and up

are perfectly capable of forming intent and that adult sentences (including life) can be justified in that range for serious crimes, but to declare an eleven year old child as incorrigible for life without even attempting psychiatric treatment is unconscionable. An eleven year old is not on par with Bruno, the guy who killed a Kwik-E-Mark clerk during a stick-up.

Pennsylvania, where all juveniles are automatically treated as adults unless a judge decides otherwise,

I guess even progressive states can have shitty Dickensian laws.

he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole.

Putting a 13 year old child in an adult prison is basically akin to throwing fresh meat to the wolves.

[Abq_Sarah]

46. We can't "fix" every condition

And personally, I don't think you can "cure" a kid who shoots a pregnant woman in the back of the head and then goes on about his school day as if nothing happened. That's a whole different level of "troubled" and it can't be erased by therapy.

[happyslug]

58. The Common Law Rule was age 14

Now if you were above age 7, you would be tried in an adult court but the Judge would tell the Jury that the child had to have had the mental ability of a normal 14 year old. Thus you hear of the use of both ages. This reflected the "Rules of Sevens" when it came to how much creditability to give a child. Below age seven, little creditability was given to a child's testimony, above age 14, the child credibility was the same as if the child was over 21. Between 7 and 14, credibility was decided on a case by case basis, but the test was still the mental capability of a normal 14 year old.

Since the late 1800s the States have tried to modified the above rule based on whatever was the latest fad. In the last 20-40 years the movement has been to make the law harsher on juvenile, thus you get laws like this one when it is presumed the Child is competent unless the Court finds otherwise then and only then does the case go to Juvenile Court.

Now, other ages were used for other purposes under the common law (For example the age to consent to sex was 12, which has been changed in all jurisdictions) but 14 seems to be the age the Judges of old determined most people knew what they were doing. Modern science seems to be supporting that old finding, so those old medieval Judges were closer to the truth then the various advocates both for and against harsher treatment of minors over the last 100 or so years.

[eilen]

32. He should not be tried as an adult.

I think he should be in an institution for emotionally disturbed children and be diagnosed and treated. Eleven year olds can do some crazy shit not realizing the ramifications. They just don't have a good decision making capacity. Personally, I don't believe he should have had free access to a gun.

[micraphone]

43. "Personally, I don't believe he should have had free access to a gun"

Agreed. As has been pointed out up-thread, what the hell is an 11 year-old doing with a gun outside of a supervised activity???

Especially one who has emotional problems the father knows, or should have known about.

[DeSwiss]

35. I wonder how many murders he saw on teevee.....

...before he committed one?

- K&R

[happyslug]

40. That is old news, Pa Superior Court took the case in July 2010

http://www.vindy.com/news/2010/jul/28/pa-appeals-court-hear-jordan-brown-homicide-case/

The Attorney General Brief was filed in November 2010 (The Attorneys for the child brief had been earlier).

http://www.vindy.com/news/2010/nov/30/atty-general-court8217s-ruling-to-try-bo/

No decision as of yet, but the problem is the Judge ruled the Child could not be rehabilitated and thus not eligible for transfer back to juvenile court, when that decision was based on the Psychologist report based in his examination of the Child when the Child followed his attorney's advice and said nothing. i.e. the child exercised his right NOT to incriminate himself, and that is being held against him for the Psychologist testified that recognition that a crime had been done was the first step in rehabilitation, a step the defense held would be used against the Child in any subsequent trial. That is a constitutional issue which the trial Judge even ruled had not been heard by any court in Pennsylvania (thus allowed the appeal even before trial, a rarity in the US, most appeals occur AFTER trial).

This case looks like it being argued in Front of Superior Court on January 24 and 25 of 2011. It is NOT a two day hearing, it is on the list for hearings for those two days in front of Judge Allen, Olson and Colville in Pittsburgh PA:

Argument court list by panel and location:
http://www.superior.court.state.pa.us/panel_schedule/sched_menu.htm

PDF List of hearings that day:
http://www.superior.court.state.pa.us/panel_schedule/arglists/11a03.pdf

This case was discussed on DU in April 2010:
http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=224x4272

February 2010:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7706978&mesg_id=7706978

February 2009:
http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x8544601

April 2009:
http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3798840

A DU blog from March 2010:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TheBigotBasher/285

[No Elephants]

49. God bless America.

"Brown allegedly carried out the killing using his own hunting rifle, a shotgun designed specifically for children."

"The US is the only country where juveniles are serving life imprisonment without parole under the so-called "life means life" policy."

"Pennsylvania, where all juveniles are automatically treated as adults unless a judge decides otherwise, heads the league table of 44 states that hand out the sentence, with about 450 cases."

"Amnesty International said the move would be a violation of international law. "It is shocking that anyone this young could face life imprisonment without parole, let alone in a country which labels itself as a progressive force for human rights," said Susan Lee, head of the campaign's Americas operation."

"Try to explain to a 12-year-old what the rest of your life means. It's incomprehensible for him," he told ABC News last year.

[CBGLuthier]

54. What if he were ten? Nine? At some point he can't be responsible

Eight? Seven? Who decides the cutoff? Is six old enough to know better? Five? Come on people. Surely most four year-olds should know better.

3-2-1.

[happyslug]

64. Under the Common Law, if you were under 7, you could NOT even be tried

Above age 7, you were tried, but the test was did the defendant have the capability of a normal 14 year old, and if the answer was yes, the child could be convicted.

[piedmont]

56. Ok, what's the harshest sentence he could get in Juvenile Court in PA?

If he could be out at 22, then try him as an adult. If he's a sociopath then it's too great a risk to let out anytime soon.

[happyslug]

57. Latest update from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11026/1120634-455.stm

[AmandaMae]

60. psychopaths start early.

[happyslug]

63. No indications that Jordon Brown is a Psychopath

For definition of being a Psychopath:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-psychopath-means

Jordan Brown has NOT demonstrated any of the main characteristics of being s Psychopath:

The best-established measure of psychopathy, the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R), developed by University of British Columbia psychologist Robert D. Hare, requires a standardized interview with subjects and an examination of their file records, such as their criminal and educational histories. Analyses of the PCL-R reveal that it comprises at least three overlapping, but separable, constellations of traits: interpersonal deficits (such as grandiosity, arrogance and deceitfulness), affective deficits (lack of guilt and empathy, for instance), and impulsive and criminal behaviors (including sexual promiscuity and stealing).

While Jordon Brown did kill, no reports of any stealing have been reported (And being age 11, I doubt he is sleeping around). No reports of lying or talking about himself (In fact the New Report shows the Attorney General is relying on the cold short story the child told to the police, not a grand story of how it was done, not did he lie about doing so). The Child has indicated no remorse at killing the woman and that can show a lack of guilt and empathy, but it can also be him just NOT wanting to talk about it.

The biggest problem is the record that he is a psychopath is weak, mostly do to his age. If he was older we would know more (more opportunity to lie, steal, have sex. and show a lack of care for who he hurts, on the other hand more opportunity to show he does NOT do any of those actions). Not enough data to make that conclusion.

[eilen]

71. I still wonder what it was that drove him to do

such a thing. Was it a matter of being scapegoated at home-- like a bullying situation?

[happyslug]

81. I wish I knew, but all we get is snippets

No Text (n/t)

[Union Scribe]

111. They do. Mary Bell, anyone?

[happyslug]

112. I have read the Defendant's brief in this case, no indication of psychosis

or any psychopathology thinking, in fact he appears to be a normal 13 year old male who denies killing the woman.

For more details see the argument portion of the Defendant's brief I referenced below

[CakeGrrl]

77. Old enough to know how to take life with a gun? Deal with the consequences.

It isn't the DP, so the kid gets to live and breathe unlike the woman and unborn child.

He knew he was taking life, IMO. I don't have a problem with it.

[NikRik]

90. Having hard time looking beyond....

the brutality of the crime ! Iam on the fence with this one and I just dont know which side to fall on.I want to believe that this child has some problems and needs intense treatment. With that said I still cannot get it out of my mind that anyone would shoot someone as they sleep in the back of the head and then to make matters worst she was 8 months pregnant.We have to remember how many others are effected by this brutal murder,and a soul that never had a chance at life ! Sad very sad .

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. What was his motive?

Most cases I've heard of in which a child or teen kills a parent or stepparent, either the child is mentally ill or the parent was abusive. There's the occasional sociopath, but most such kids need treatment, not incarceration.

I've heard some horror stories about stepmothers or dad's girlfriends abusing their man's children.

Just because the fiancee was pregnant doesn't mean she couldn't have made the kid's life miserable.

I can envision a scenario in which the fiancee was abusive, and the 11-year-old took an impulsive and immature way out.

I'd hate to consider the possibility that the kid's life at home was hell and that his attempt at escape led to him being put into real hell (prison) for life.

[msanthrope]

103. Apparently, he didn't want a stepbrother.

And there's nothing to suggest that the fiance was abusive.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

113. But we don't know the whole story, do we?

Maybe he's a sociopath, but I'd want that proved before I'd ruin his whole life.

[Jefferson23]

96. Like a magic wand..woosh..you're an adult! Dumb ass hypocritical

backward legal maneuvering. Sad commentary on the USA.

[Maine-ah]

99. shit, there has to be some kind of mental issue here

with an 11 year old, who coldly shoots a pregnant woman in the back of the head while she's sleeping and then gets on a bus and goes to school like nothing happened.

But I still have a hard time not saying "lock him up".

yes, an 11 year olds brain is still not fully formed, but at that age they sure as hell know that you don't do something like this.

Has he been mentally evaluated yet, and if so, does anyone here know what came of that? The story doesn't give a whole lot of info.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[happyslug]

108. Here is the Defendant's Brief

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47539563/Jordan-Brown-Brief-Juvenile-Law-Center

Brief filed by Amicus Brief:
http://www.jlc.org/litigation/commonwealth of pennsylvania v. jordan brown/

[Broderick]

109. 11

Nuff said. In no way an adult.