US enraged over India shooting down F-16, F-18

[closeupready]

Source: Rediff

That the Obama administration, business and industry are deeply disappointed over being rejected for the multi-billion 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal is a no-brainer. It is palpable.

But there was also seething anger among the senior administration officials -- at State, Commerce and the Pentagon -- and representatives of business and industry that New Delhi's decision was wholly political and much of the finger-pointing was at Defence Minister A K Antony and the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

However, none of the administration officials, business and industry representatives, including those at Boeing and Lockheed that rediff.com spoke too were willing to go on record with their disappointment and angst, and noted that beyond the notification that they had received from the Indian authorities, they were still "in a fact-gathering mode right now'.

Read more: http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-us-enraged-over-india-rejecting-aircraft-in-mmrca-deal/20110429.htm

---

Seems disloyal to me.

[Harmony Blue]

1. Looking out for what is best for their country

isn't disloyalty by any measure. India wants to go in a different direction for their vision of their air force with limited funds. They want the best bang for the buck, and they don't see that with this deal. They probably don't view F-16's and F-18's as long term investments worth exploring.

[closeupready]

3. Even in light of the nuclear deal they signed?

And then we are supposed to believe India is our friend. Well, certainly the people are, but the government and Hindu nationalists are another matter, IMHO. Anyway, people will have different opinions.

[liberation]

11. What is your definition of "friendship?"

Doing as they're told and buying our overpriced obsolete military kit?

[davepc]

14. The stuff they're going to get from the Russians isint a lot better.

At least US fighter jets are made in the USA.

[Vehl]

22. Actually Indians only get the Russian Airframes, and use Israeli , Indian And French Avionics

Also they custom order the planes from Russia per their requirements.

For Example the Su30 MKI has 3d thrust vectoring (found only in su37 prototypes)
Carnards
Rear facing radar/Ability to fire missiles to a target at 6 o clock
Laser optical locator system
Israeli and French Avionics
Indian mission computer and etc etc
Can use both Nato and Russian weaponry

In fact that aircraft is much more capable than any fighter Russia has today, and is probably the best operational heavy fighter in Asia as of now


Su 30MKI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI

[closeupready]

36. Exactly. Our corporations outsource our jobs there, we should get business in return.

IMHO.

[Vehl]

40. Not if the corporations sell decades old obsolete junk!

nt

[jpak]

32. beat me to it

yup

[Fool Count]

18. In addition to the cost considerations, you mention,

Indians nowadays also look for licensing agreements when part of actual production would be done in India. Russians offered a generous
licensing deal with their bid and were still shot down. Did the US? Very doubtful. In addition to that, any deal with the US carries the risk
of some kind of embargo or export control restrictions on future service or spare parts supply if US doesn't like something India might
do after the deal is done. Who wants their military readiness affected in such a way? Certainly not India, with very real possibility of
military engagement on two potential fronts.

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. In that light, they will probably go for the Advanced Gripen from Sweden

Not only will they get technology the US does not control, the Gripen is designed to be operated from 'austere' fields- i.e.

shorter runways with minimal ground equipment.

[Vehl]

23. Gripen is rejected as well, Only French Rafal and European Eurofighter are chosen

I agree with your reasoning why the Teen series were not chosen though.


And you make a good point about airfield length. The F18 Apparently needed two-three times the airfield the rafel needed!

[Vehl]

25. +100

The last thing India needs is a embargo on parts and supplies that would ground its fleet while fighting a two front war with Pakistan and China

[Uncle Joe]

2. That's a shitty headline.

Thanks for the thread, closeupready.

[closeupready]

4. I know - seems like someone should have done better.

Cheers.

[Demeter]

24. One Might Say Deliberately Provocative

India has never been our friend, and their internal corporate and political corruption meets or exceeds ours...except their military procurement people are nobody's fools. I say good for India!

[JI7]

5. i wonder if this is because of anger over aid to Pakistan

but they have to see that there is a reason for that. and with the US killing Bin Laden that helps india also.

[Ian David]

6. Headline FAIL. n/t

[drm604]

7. Big Time.

I saw that headline and thought, WTF?

[freshwest]

16. +1,000

[Blue_Tires]

8. Maybe we can start selling things OTHER than instruments of death?

Let's start there...

Although I know Lockheed forever dreams of a day where their products are on display for both sides no matter WHO is fighting...

[Amonester]

12. Yep. Like sugar corn syrup, for example...

I heard there's a over-subsidized surplus.

[OhioChick]

9. I can remember Obama saying this "deal" would create 50,000 jobs here...

Can't find it now. Search function is down.

[The abyss]

17. Are you speaking of this topic?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9501918&mesg_id=9501918

[Vehl]

27. they were different deals which are already signed

check my lengthy reply below for a breakdown of the other deals

[Bette Noir]

10. Damn, what a scary, misleading headline.

I thought literal planes got shot down.

It was a deal that didn't go through. That's very different.

[davepc]

13. Can that headline be any worse?

How about "REJECTING SALE OF AIRCRAFT" or something.


Shooting down? Really?

[w4rma]

15. Can we end 'free' trade now that it isn't helping the MIC, anymore? (nt)

[rabs]

20. The MIC is NOT doing well in Latin America

(edit for extra word in subject line)

Last night was reading O Estado de Sao Paulo and ran across the article below. What caught my attention was in the past, the MIC was top dog in selling its war machines to Latin America, especially the U.S.-backed, right-wing dictatorships.

Not any more, though, as most of the continent is now ruled by leftist democracies that have shied away from the United States.

Main points of the O Estado article:

Brazil is studying the purchase from China of state-of-the-art, digital anti-aircraft radar systems.

Modern air defense systems are needed for security for the 2014 World Cup and the 2016 Olympics. This is considered a priority by the armed forces. (Not to mention to protect the massive oil deposits discovered under off-shore Atlantic waters.)

Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff was in Bejing on April 12 where the issue was discussed with the China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation.

The Chinese option is not the only one for Dilma, military purchases for the ground forces are being explored also from England, Russia, Italy and France.

Brazil also will be modernizing its Air Force combat fleet. The options so far are France (Dasault) and Sweden (Saab). Purchases will be announced in 2012.

Obama was in Brazil last month trying to peddle F-16 (or F-18) but he got a cold reception.

Billions of dollars are at stake, and the MIC appears to be losing out big time.


------- O Estado article for those who read Portuguese -----

Brasil estuda aquisição de radares da China.

País precisa modernizar sistema de defesa antiaérea para a Copa e a Olimpíada; equipamento é considerado prioridade pelo Exército

Roberto Godoy - O Estado de S.Paulo
O Brasil precisa criar uma nova e moderna estrutura de defesa antiaérea para atender à necessidade da segurança da Copa de 2014 e dos Jogos Olímpicos de 2016, e pode comprar esse equipamento na China.

No dia 12 de abril, em Pequim, durante visita da presidente Dilma Rousseff, o assunto foi tratado entre representantes da China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC), a agência estatal responsável pelos equipamentos eletrônicos de Defesa e autoridades brasileiras. Em 2008, os chineses já haviam submetido uma proposta preliminar ao Comando do Exército.

Essa, todavia, não é a única possibilidade: os especialistas da Força terrestre estão pesquisando equipamentos junto a fornecedores da Inglaterra, França e Rússia. Itália e Rússia também estão na lista. Qualquer negócio só será tratado em 2012.

Article (Port.)

http://www.estadao.com.br/estadaodehoje/20110502/not_imp713593,0.php

[Vehl]

21. enraged that 70s airframes(F 16,18) lost to 90s airframes(Eurofighter, Rafael?) the reasons why

As a Defense expert put it, it would have been stupid for the US to expect the F16 or F18 to win. The same goes for the Russian mig 35 which was kicked out as well.

The ones who are selected for the next leg of the competition are the French Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon

India Selects Eurofighter, Rafale for MMRCA Shortlist
http://www.defencetalk.com/india-selects-eurofighter-rafale-for-mmrca-shortlist-33760/

Here are is a brief explanation for the reason these aircraft were eliminated.


Contenders

1 Rafael >> Passed all the tests and is selected for the next leg. is also a MUCH newer and advanced aircraft compared to the "teens"..especially when it comes to growth potential for an airframe that is supposed to be in service for another 2-3 decades.

2 Eurofighter typhoon >>Passed most of the tests and is selected for the next leg. The growth potential and airframe similar to the Rafael

3 Mig 35 >> Russia tried to pass off an upgraded mig 29 as this one...rejected by India

4 F16 Eagle >> The f16 was a loser from the onset...even American defense journalists knew it..cos the PAF (pakistan airfroce) has a fleet of these and the IAF would be stupid to use the same...not to mention that its a nearly 40 year old airframe and is already reached its maximum growth potential.

5 F18 Hornet >> Failed the "Leh test" (Leh is one of the highest altitude airfiled in the Indian himalayas and it was a pre-requisite for the contenders to pass performance tests conducted in this airfield. Furthermore like the f16, the f18 is also a decades old airframe that is already "maxed out"..with no growth potential

6 Saab Gripen >> Rejected because its in the same class as India's LCA Tejas..especially the upcoming MK2 version (light fighter)..and on top of it it uses an American engine..thus susceptible to sanctions.


"other reasons for elimination"

1 Us contenders had to get "clearance from congress for "tech transfers" and had a lot of "end user agreements" which required India to submit for ont he ground inspections of its fleet by American representatives!

2 America has a nasty reputation for unreliability when it comes to guaranteed sanction free supply of parts for the fleet.
Answer the simple question. Will America put a "hold" on military after-sales supports to India)and Pakistan) during a conflict between these two nations or not?the answer is a resounding yes. Why would India risk grounding 126 top of the line fighters during a war??

3 The Europeans were offering way more tech transfers and especially higher end tech, like AESA Radar with full source code (America did not offer the source code...which would force India to let Lockheed martin or Boeing "know" its mission parameters so those companies could "program" those parameters for India. Would you be willing to let any other country know your mission parameters? sounds like a surefire way to scare off any buyers aint it?) The French and the Europeans are more than willing to give full source codes.

4 America was against the MKI'sation of its Aircraft. This MKI stands for the Su30MKI heavy fighter India uses...where it followed a unique concept of mixing and matching equipment and tech from multiple countries to fit its own requirements. The Su30MKI has a Russian airframe, Indian mission computers, French and Russian Avionics. It is also able to use all the Russian block and Nato block weapons...effectively making it much more capable than any aircraft in Russia's own arsenal. The Europeans were allowing India the same freedom, while America was not.


^^ I'm pretty sure that by this time it would be patently obvious to anyone that it was inevitable that the American(And Russian) aircraft were bound to lose. There is no way in hell India would jeopardize its front line fighters by choosing the former...especially with all the "strings" they have attached to them.

Btw India is buying non-mission critical stuff from America


~5 Billion for c17 transports
~3 Billion for p8i Maritime surveillance aircraft
~600 million for c130 j's for special operations
~1 Billion for Longbow copters


^^ Thats about 10 billion worth of stuff right there. So I think its disingenuous to claim that India is not buying anything from America. Its buying nearly 10 billion worth of stuff. They want new aircraft which can have a lifespan of about 3 decades..not ones with one leg in the grave(the "teen" series )




In other words, this article is worthless because there was no chance of the US aircraft winning int he first place. To somehow make it seem as if the rejection of the American aircraft which failed the tests and did not measure up to the requirements as something anti-American is something only multinational military corps can do..maybe they are so used to unquestioning buyers that they are not used to defeat. The Russian , even though they lost this competition, have secured a nearly 20 Billion worth deal for joint development of 250 5th gen fighters with India.


Russia, Sweden, U.S. fall out of Indian fighter deal
http://www.en.rian.ru/business/20110428/163749641.html

Wiki has a better table than the one below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition#Comparison_of_the_competing_aircraft

[Demeter]

26. They are supposed to love us unconditionally

while we screw them over: India, South America, Asia, etc....that game is so last century.

[Fool Count]

29. The reason the US is so upset is simply that they cannot

grasp the concept of fair competitive tender when four out of five bidders will lose and the decision
is actually made on merit rather than politics. US political system runs on money and patronage
where no-bid contracts are the norm and merit is totally beside the point. They just cannot comprehend
that the decision can be based on anything other than politics, the view that forces them to take
rejection as a personal insult. If they try to implement something similar in their own weapons procurement
they may get better weapons for less and save quite a bit of money. But that would make certain politicians
to give up their much cherished power of the purse with political power and influence measured by billions
of military contracts brought to their donors and constituents. A typical example is the recent
US Airforce tanker contract controversy, when Airbus' parent EADS won the $35 billion contract on the
merits but it was given to Boeing anyway after Beltway lobbyists and politicians went to work in Washington.
They simply expect Indians to run their business the same way and get all surprised when they don't.

[Vehl]

39. +1000

I could not have said it any better!

Its really saddening to see America base its foreign policy on the whims of the MIC than its real needs!

[Keith Bee]

28. A pointed unrec

Was that even the real headline?

[closeupready]

37. It was even the real headline in an alternate universe where the curious click on provided links.

Clearly, we are not in that universe.

[cosmicone]

30. If we stop arming Pakistan to the teeth and

forgiving its state sponsored terrorism, India would see US military hardware differently.

Right now, why should India pay for something that Pakistan gets for free?

Why should India support the very companies that are supplying the enemy?

It is in the interests of the US to throw Pakistan under the bus because India is a much bigger market and a prosperous India would create hundreds of thousands of jobs in the US.

[nvme]

31. spot on!

It will be interesting to see how strong an ally Pakistan will continue to be in the near future. I think that we need to follow along the economic lines. How ever we must always keep in mind the mixture of Nukes in a volatile nature of Pakistan. We can not abandon it completely

[KeepItReal]

34. +1

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crickets]

42. +2

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xithras]

35. Disloyal?

What loyalty does India owe us? India's loyalty should be to its own people, which includes building the best defenses they can afford. Building an air force around a 35 year old airframe design, an airframe that WE OURSELVES no longer buy, is a dumb idea.

The Eurofighter is on their shortlist, which is the technological equivalent of the F-22 (superior in some ways, less so in others), and is a modern aircraft. We wanted to treat them like a third world country and sell them a third world air force. India isn't interested in acting like a third-world country anymore.

If we'd offered them F-22's, they might have been more interested, but we didn't want to sell our hottest military assets. The Europeans aren't as worried about that as we are.

[Vehl]

41. +1 funny how some people define loyalty right? nt

[Devil_Fish]

43. What a miss-leading headline. NT