Calif. bill would protect unlicensed drivers from arrest

[alp227]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

A bill loaded with immigration politics and potential implications for highway safety has landed on Gov. Jerry Brown's desk.

The legislation by Assemblyman Gil Cedillo, D-Los Angeles, would change police procedures at drunken-driving checkpoints, prohibiting officers from arresting drivers and immediately impounding their cars if their only offense is not having a license.

Supporters say the bill, AB353, would impose a consistent policy statewide - some agencies confiscate unlicensed drivers' cars now, and some do not - while keeping DUI checkpoints from being turned into traps for otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants who cannot obtain licenses.

"In most parts of California, you basically have to have a car," said Mark Silverman, director of immigration policy at the Immigrant Legal Resource Center. "You have to be able to drive to survive, to get anywhere. Because of that, the truth is, immigrant drivers without licenses will be driving anyway because of the necessity. The towing of cars will not stop people from driving."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/09/12/BARQ1L1VT8.DTL

---

Here's the vote - even some Republicans voted with all legislative Democrats for this bill. I think that Jerry Brown should veto it. What's the point of getting a license with this law then? This makes Democrats look bad. Why can't Congress just pass immigration reform already???

[Ian David]

1. I'm pretty sure that the ONE THING that will stop someone from driving is NOT HAVING A CAR. n/t

[Downwinder]

2. Did it stop you?

[Ian David]

56. I can honestly say that I have never driven a car when I did not have one to drive. n/t

[Downwinder]

63. I can honestly say that I drove well be for I had a license or my own vehicle.

[Ian David]

75. If you drive like you write, god help us all. n/t

[EFerrari]

3. You want to impound the cars of people who are barred from licenses

so that Democrats don't look bad?

:wtf:

For most CA working families, a car is the most valuable thing they own and the thing they need to get to work and back.

Are you serious? You want to punish these people because politicians can't get it together?

[alp227]

5. first of all those people aren't supposed to be here in the first place

secondly by working families do you count those illegal immigrants who took jobs from Americans? I know that plenty of working-class californians DO have licenses as they are legal residents/US citizens, and let me know if you still support this bill even after an unlicensed/undoc'd driver after it passes puts an innocent Californian in a wheelchair for life. Furthermore, this bill targets anyone - regardless of citizenship/immigration status - w/o a drivers' license. So expect an increase in joyrides by high school kids who didn't get their licenses yet. What those illegal immigrant laborers need is a pathway to citizenship, not worthless state-level boosters like this bill.

[EFerrari]

19. None of that justifies grabbing the property of working families.

That's just a money maker for the state on the backs of those that can least afford it.

It has nothing to do with our fucked up immigration policy, this is about money.

[alp227]

22. apparently many working class US citizens also are unlicensed drivers?

Hmm. Still, I will never justify allowing unlicensed people to drive on the roads, otherwise this bill still defeats the purpose of getting a license.

[EFerrari]

25. Maybe you have never been poor. I have.

All it takes for some people on the edge is to get a ticket they can't pay right away. It has nothing to do with the desire to pay, it's just about cash. The fine adds up and before they know it, their license is suspended. It has nothing to do with bad driving in a lot of cases. There just is nothing left over to pay that one ticket and it exploded from there.

Taking that car will not help anyone make the money needed to pay off their problem.

[alp227]

28. what does being poor have to do with not being able to get a license?

and how do poor people afford cars in the first place? Yes, I admit I've never been poor, but I won't listen to the stuff the Heritage Foundation pushes "look! poor people with flat screen TVs and cell phones!"

[EFerrari]

29. Being unlicensed doesn't mean you never had one.

What I described above happens all the time to poor people.

Now, being undocumented can prevent you from ever getting a license and that just compounds the problem. I actually know a lot of undocumented people (I'm in East San Jose). Most of them have jobs and insurance through a family member. They do everything possible to avoid police contact -- for decades at a time. They are just working people.

Taking their car at checkpoints is just thuggery.

[alp227]

31. as far as immigration goes, it's more of an argument for the feds to do something

rather than a defense of allowing undoc'd people to get licenses or to get legal reprieves like this bill. Obama was right in describing Congress as a circus. Now onto the topic of poor, unlicensed citizens. This reminds me of something I've heard about the Wisconsin voter ID law in how poorer voters can't travel to the DMV. In California, are poorer drivers unable to renew/pay the fees and therefore let their licenses expire without renewal? Maybe they could afford their cars before but fell into harder times?

[EFerrari]

34. You may not believe this but a ticket over $50 dollars

may be out of reach for a lot of people. Then, the fine starts doubling and before you know it, you get a notice in the mail that your license is suspended. And regardless, you have to drive to work in the morning.

A lot of people have gone right down the tubes since 2006. Taking a working family's car away is like cutting off a leg. There isn't much they can do about it and the situation will only get worse. :(

And you're right about those voter ID laws. It's flat out voter suppression in normal times, let alone at a time of high unemployment like this.

[pitohui]

that person should not be driving a car

if you can't pay a $50 ticket then when you hit and cripple me i am also to be beggared because you sure as fuck don't have insurance?

no if you can't afford a $20 driver's license fee you can't afford $200 in car insurance

if you don't have a driver's license TAKE THE CAR GET THEM OFF THE ROAD

anyone can have an accident and if you hurt someone else at a time when you don't even have $50 you have not helped yourself, for your life is already destroyed, you have also beggared another family and given the gift of poverty to someone else

fuck that, if you have a conscience, how could you possibly do that?

i have been homeless

i have never driven a car drunk or without insurance, because i have a SOUL

this has nothing to do w. race or nationality but if you can't afford insurance they need to take your car and get you off the road because if you're driving without money and without insurance i don't care who you are because you have already made the decision that if you have an accident (which can happen to anyone driving a car) you don't care fuck-all what happens to your victim

[christx30]

93. I drove for a year

with no insurence. Why? Because I had no choice. My wife has no license and has no interest in getting one. I'm supporting my wife and 2 kids and most of the time we are barly hanging on, with 1 missing paycheck away from homelessness.
I had to get to work, take my kids to the doctor and grandparents. I didn't like it. I was terrified of cops. I hated them. But I have to work. I have to live my life. I did eventually get caught. Huge fine. Now gotta pay a $260 surcharge for 3 years. This is really hurting us.
But you're right. I should spend 2 hours riding the bus to work each way when my work is 6 minutes by car. I should take 4 hours and 3 miles of walking to take my autistic son to his therapy each Thursday. :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

111. Or you have decided that your family still needs to eat.

That shouldn't be too hard for someone with a SOUL to figure out.

[awoke_in_2003]

55. The poor are least likely to be able...

to afford to take the better part of the day off (without pay) to get their license renewed. Shit, the lack of empathy is striking.

[alp227]

59. well thank you for filling my holes in empathy then

I've never experienced poverty in my life, but I'd rather understand others than be a selfish "I've got mine forget everybody else" type.

[cutlassmama]

73. most can be renewed online now

[awoke_in_2003]

82. In Texas...

it is every other cycle that you can do this. It costs $25. Believe it or not, that is a lot of money for some in this country.

on edit: oh, and you also need access to a computer and internet.

[CountAllVotes]

83. and that is not so easy for many

I spent most of last week dealing with helping someone get their driver's license renewed and oh what a damn nightmare it was.

The online appt. feature did not work properly.

When you called on the phone, you had a long long wait only to leave a message hoping they'd call you back to give you an appointment.

The DMV is a steaming pile of sh*t IMO. :(

[KamaAina]

132. Very often, having the car makes people poor

but outside SF, Oakland, Berkeley and maybe LA, we don't really offer a realistic transit option (for instance, VTA buses don't even go up as far as where (I think) EFerrari is). So what do you expect people to do? Hitchhike?

[christx30]

57. Two years ago

I was broke. Trying to support my wife and two kids on $9 an hour. I could not afford insurance. I was stopped and got a no insurance ticket. Found out 3 months later that the state of Texas assesses a $260 per year surcharge on your license for 3 years. You can pay it off $35 at a time, but if you miss a payment, you lose your license.
I barely make enough for food and rent. Now I gotta add another $35 to my budget somewhere? I squeezed it in and it sucks. I have come close to missing payments a few times because my wife wanted to get groceries instead of paying the state money.
So if I lose my license over this, do you think I should never drive again? I still have to get to work. I still have to get to the grocery store. Still need to take my kids to their grandparents. And the nearest bus stop is about a mile from my house.

[ZombieHorde]

36. Thank you so much for defending some of our most vulnerable families. nt

[EFerrari]

38. I guess there are people who are so fortunate

that they've never had to choose between paying a ticket and putting gas in the car to get to work. The problem just never came up for them. And good for them. Most families aren't in that position.

[alp227]

60. try that argument on people injured or friends of people killed

by unlicensed drivers, which the previous poster and i were addressing

[EFerrari]

61. But you really aren't addressing it at all.

Where is your data?

[alp227]

62. if you read Don Rosenberg's story in the article

it's about a REPEAT UNLICENSED OFFENDER who killed his motorcycle-riding son.

[EFerrari]

86. You are generalizing from one story? Okay. n/t

[alp227]

96. as much as i feel sorry for poor people, the law should favor public safety

Hint: even the least fortunate among us can be victims of traffic violators. And I was listening to a summary of this bill on KQED's California Report this morning, and the reporter brought up an American Automobile Association study showing that unlicensed drivers are five times more likely to cause fatal crashes than licensed ones. I've also seen stats showing that drivers under 25 are the most dangerous.

[EFerrari]

109. Yes, the law should favor public safety and this is exactly why

municipal police should not double as immigration officers. It makes the collaboration they need from the community nearly impossible and puts us all at risk.

[Plucketeer]

26. We've tried to get

"pay at the pump" insurance coverage here. But our loving insurance companies would have NONE of that! As long as there's the lure of AG work - which has been proven - Americans won't do - because it pays so little for the effort expended - you'll be able to afford that occassional glass of OJ you enjoy.

[ZombieHorde]

35. Flags are bullshit; human lives are real.

Real things, like people, should have priority over artificial constructs, like nations.

[roody]

127. and if you are descended from European invaders,

you are not supposed to be here.

[KamaAina]

133. Way to drag disability into this

let me know if you still support this bill even after an unlicensed/undoc'd driver after it passes puts an innocent Californian in a wheelchair for life.

You make it sound as though using a wheelchair is worse than being killed. You also make it sound as though no licensed driver in all California history has ever been involved in an accident that caused a disabling injury. :grr:

[ChandlerJr]

7. If you have no license you are unlikley to have insurance

do you want these people running into your daughters car?

[EFerrari]

18. Why my daughter's car?

:)

[dipsydoodle]

30. Running into your daughter as a pedestrian

might be more important.

[EFerrari]

32. Most of the undocumented people I know are in a family network

and they have insurance through a family member. I've never met an insurance agent that was unwilling to take a check. :)

[dipsydoodle]

44. I meant

in general - not a specific group. I'm not sure we have what you describe over here - only insurance for a car specific to the driver who owns the car unless the driver is driving within another's policy assuming the other policy allows that and the "other" is the actual car owner.

Latest on the subject over here was :

Motorists are being urged to read up on the new car insurance rules the Government is introducing in a bid to clamp down on uninsured drivers.

The new rules will mean from Monday 27th June, all motorists will have to declare any cars without insurance as being off road, the BBC reported.

Those who do not declare cars with no insurance as being off road will first receive a warning letter urging them to buy car insurance, followed by a penalty of £100 if they continue to ignore the authorities.

Those who do not buy car insurance after this point could see their car seized and destroyed – or face a fine of up to £1,000.

http://www.moneyexpert.com/financial-news/car-insurance/800580364/whatarethenewcarinsurancerules/article.aspx

Our police can tell before they stop a car driver, from its registration plate , whether or not a car is insured. They can also tell if the make and model fit the reg #. I got stopped years ago on the day I changed my tt Roadster to a BMW coupe. I'd had my plate, MILLF don't laugh, transferred that same day. I told them to look at the tax disc which confirmed I wasn't lying - their computer records are not always bang up to date.

:hi:

[ChandlerJr]

51. Actually I wasn't referencing citizenship status

A few years ago my daughters car was clobbered by an unlicensed(suspended)uninsured driver. Being an impoverished student at the time my kid only had the required liability coverage on an old car that was rendered undrivable and unrepairable.

Get them off the road, I really don't care who or what they are.

(Ya, Ya, daddy got her a different car)

[EFerrari]

53. Well immigrants have a much lower crime rate than the general pop

so the chances are your daughter won't be hit by someone whose family's sustenance depends on them staying below the radar.

That people have to drive like that isn't your fault. It's the fault of the idiots who'd rather keep immigration as a political cash cow than keep your daughter and everyone else safe.

[Psephos]

70. Insurance coverage is voided when it's revealed that the at-fault driver has no license.

When you "have insurance through a family member" that means that a licensed driver has obtained an insurance certificate that can be presented at the DMV to get the license plate. It doesn't mean that any unlicensed driver who drives the car is covered. To the contrary, unlicensed drivers are excluded.

When an unlicensed driver hits someone, fixing the resulting damage to life and property comes out of the victim's pocket.

[EFerrari]

85. What it means is that while you don't get into accidents

because you can't afford to be caught, you have proof of insurance to present.

[Psephos]

88. It's not "proof" of insurance if the insurance is void because of an unlicensed driver. :)

At that point, the only thing that piece of paper proves is that the victim of the accident is also a victim of someone else's fraud, and will bear the costs.

I have real sympathy for the desperate people stuck in the no-document abyss. I also have real sympathy for those whose lives they wreck. We have laws for a reason. Either they should be enforced, or they should be changed. When laws become a joke, then we return to the law of the jungle, which is fuck someone else over before they fuck you. Anyone who thinks justice or fairness will be increased by that is ignorant of history.

No thanks.

[EFerrari]

89. Sure there is. It's in the glove box with the registration.

:)

I must know nearly a hundred undocumented people in this part of town and over many years. None of them has wrecked anyone's life that I know of. Mostly they work really hard, spend the weekends with their kids if they are lucky enough to have them here and send as much money home as they can.

You are conflating lack of docs with real criminality which is a mistake. If you have to live here without docs, you cannot get into trouble.

[Psephos]

125. Oh, paper in the glovebox: problem solved! How could I have been so dense? :)

My sister was hit while riding her motorcycle by an unlicensed driver who had that little fraudulent piece of paper you mentioned in the glovebox.

She went right over the hood of the car, landed on the far side, and snapped her right humerus bone in half.

30 grand and counting so far. Out of her pocket...and she didn't have 30 grand, so you can guess how nice that's been turning out.

[hunter]

130. I have insurance against uninsured drivers.

Sorry about your sister.

My brother was in a similar motorcycle accident. The ambulance took him to a hospital that didn't accept his insurance. So they shot him up with Demerol, stopped the bleeding, splinted his broken femur (!!!) and asked if I could drive him to a hospital that did accept his insurance. They wouldn't admit him.

At the approved hospital my brother ended up in full body cast. I can't remember for how long, but it seemed like forever. He was pretty ripe when they cut him out.

These days dumping a patient like the first hospital did would be illegal. Laws were passed to discourage this sort of unconscionable and unethical hospital policy.

The abuses of drunk driving check points by police are real. That's why we need laws that will discourage these abuses.

[Psephos]

131. Me too.

Sign of the times, it seems. :/

Interesting story about your brother - and a pox on that first hospital. Sounds like my sis was comparatively lucky.

I absolutely agree with you that abuses of drunk-driving checkpoints are real, even legion. We need tighter laws, as well as restriction of "qualified immunity" that prevents prosecution of police who break these laws.

[truthisfreedom]

4. It's an interesting stop-gap that puts pressure on to face real immigration issues.

SOMETHING has to get the politicians to take action.

[former9thward]

11. Drivers licenses in CA is not going to pressure a single member of Congress to do anything.

[RZM]

12. Probably not

But if you add this to all of the other localized immigration reform laws that have popped up over the last few years it's obvious that people are quite anxious for the federal government to act.

[former9thward]

13. Both parties are paralyzed.

They are afraid if they promote something the other party will smash them over the head with it.

[RZM]

14. Both parties have some very different opinions on this in their own tents as well

Immigration is one area where Perry will be quite vulnerable to the Mittster. If Romney plays his cards right, that (along with SS) could very well cost Perry his lead in the polls.

[alp227]

97. a similar thing briefly happened in NY, then was suddenly reversed i think n/t

[former9thward]

99. Whatever happened in NY it had no effect on the immigration views of Congress.

[EFerrari]

20. No, it doesn't. It just puts money in the state coffers

because low income people won't have the money to bail out their car. No one else will care.

[dtexdem]

6. It doesn't "protect unlicensed drivers from arrest," ...

it prohibits using DUI checks to enforce immigration policies, including not having a license.

[alp227]

10. yes it does. as i brought up in another post

likely an unlicensed citizen could also be at such a checkpoint but be immune from arrest if the officer didn't observe any other traffic violation like a broken taillight, speeding, etc. Then something bad could happen.

[hang a left]

21. They use these "DUI checkpoints" to shake down our

mexican population in our community every friday night. They set them up in different locations in our very large city. Tow companies pay the police department $200,000 a year to have a contract. They must show licenses, registration, and proof of insurance. If they don't have one of the three the car is impounded for 30 days. If the owner can't afford to pay to have the car released it is auctioned off by the tow companies at their monthly auctions. It is disgusting! I hope the damn thing gets signed.

[alp227]

24. lesson learned: never profit off enforcing the law

while i feel that drivers licenses are exclusively for US citizens and legal residents, I view this kind of thing as similar to private prisons.

[RZM]

8. This kind of stuff is so interesting and stems directly from the lack of a comprehensive policy

This particular bill is the flipside of those restrictive laws in Arizona and other states. There are a lot of pressures and dynamics swirling around the immigration issue and lack of federal action on the matter mean that mini-reforms are popping up here and there. It's high time for a long-term solution but I fear that Obama and Congress won't even think about touching this issue until after 2012.

[Demoiselle]

9. Somebody from PA correct me here if I'm wrong...

but isn't it illegal to drive in PA if you don't have INSURANCE? Let alone a license!!!
I'm sorry, I guess I become an unforgiving right wing tarantula for this sentiment,...but I'll be damned if I want to share the highway with anyone who doesn't have a driver's license!!!!
There, explosion over, I feel better. But PLEASE, help me understand why I'm wrong on this.

[dmallind]

17. You are not wrong. The complication is in Secure-ID states

that will not give DLs to anyone who cannot provide original documents proving legal residency. Yes it's very likely indeed that they lack insurance (which requires a DL-based driving record) and yes they should neither be driving nor even here to drive in the first place. The only alternative is to issue DLs regardless of legal status. People who by definition are likely to be willing to break laws AND likely to be in the economic underclass are still more likely to eschew insurance, but at least they wouldn't HAVE to lack insurance because they lack the requisite DL.

[hunter]

15. So what's the purpose of these checkpoints again?

How were they sold to us?

Heck, maybe we could be taking the cars of deadbeat dads, people the I.R.S. is after, political dissidents on their way to demonstrations, people who don't have their kids car seats properly belted, drivers who are supposed to wear glasses but don't look like they are wearing contacts...

I'd refuse to show my i.d. at these checkpoints, but usually I get waived through, and when I'm not waived through they still don't ask.

I'm white.

Is the purpose of these checkpoints to discourage drunk driving? Or is it something to get us used to living in a police state; a slow encroachment upon our Constitutional rights?

I think it's the later.

[Tikki]

16. Shouldn't it be a 'fix-it' ticket....

Give the illegal driver time to get a license or make other arrangements before you confiscate his car?


Tikki

[SoapBox]

23. WTF? I am SO against this...

You've got to be kidding? Right?

So they get stopped...at a DUI point...SO THE F WHAT! No license...sorry dude...THAT IS AGAINST THE LAW!

This shit makes me so mad.

I am ALL in favor of getting things moving on immigration...you wanna live here...you become an American citizen.

We've coddled immigrants and let them run forever...time to clean this up.

You don't want to be an American and you can into the country illegally...get out. You want to be
an American...welcome aboard (when things get fixed and you can!)

[EFerrari]

27. Telll you what.

Why don't I dump cheap corn on your farm in Mexico and drive you off your land and make your town a ghost town. And while I'm at it, why I don't I impose a ridiculously low immigration quota on Mexico so you have no chance in hell of going north legally. Then, let me drop three kids and a wife on you. Maybe an old mother who depends on you to feed her.

What are you going to do? You and your family can starve to death or you can smuggle yourself north and have the wonderful experience of being hated by people too ignorant to tie their own shoes while they rip you off for your labor?

You have a choice. What will it be?

[dana_b]

90. well stated

because there is so much of that going on. I realize that this is side tracking from the original issue but it's all related. NAFTA fucked over the Mexican people as well as the U.S. citizenry so now they are trying to get work anywhere that will take them. I don't blame them at all - I would be doing the same thing. Then they need a way to get to that work however they can. When you family is hungry and needs help, thins like drivers licenses and legalities go out the window.

[alp227]

98. Quotas? I thought that the 1965 immigration law dumped them

and replaced them with a skill-based system?

[hunter]

43. Having the police act as immigration agents is a bad, bad, idea.

It makes it so the police can't do their jobs within immigrant communities.

Say you are a citizen, but your aunt Sally is undocumented. You are not going to say much to the police if you believe it could lead to you aunt's deportation.

The police in my community pretty much ignore immigration status. They have to, otherwise they wouldn't be able to accomplish anything. Nobody would talk to them.

I think the state should give drivers licenses to anyone who is a resident who can pass the test. Using drivers licenses as an internal U.S. passport is fucked up.

If we want the U.S.A. to become just another ugly police state in a wretched world full of them we might as well burn the Constitution and install a military dictatorship.

[krabigirl]

71. exactly! +1000

[Bennyboy]

33. Lots of worms in that can....

Tons of reasons why people are unlicensed. Child support problems, DWI's, license suspension etc. Are all of these types going to be exempt?

[EFerrari]

37. I was really happy when San Francisco stopped impounding cars in this way.

Because it only makes the situation worse and it winds up costing the city and country when that wage earner can't get to work and back.

[kelly1mm]

41. Well, at least for the illegals, they shouldn't even be a wage earner as

they have no documents that allow them to legally work in this country. If they do have documents, they are either forged, or more likely now due to computer checks, committing identity theft, another crime. Or they are working under the table.

[EFerrari]

42. If you are waiting for them all to lay down and die, you will be disappointed. n/t

[kelly1mm]

45. No, not lay down and die, just self deport. If we were as a country

serious about cracking down on illegal immigration, we would go after employers way harder than we do now.

Hear is what I would do:

Anybody who hires an illegal alien, including day laborers, without going through the ICE computer check system (and getting an OK to hire), would be subject to a fine of $5000 per day per illegal employee.
All fines would be placed into a fund to pay for a one way ticket back to their home countries of anyone who turns themselves in to ICE.

If illegal aliens cannot make money here they will not "lay down and die", but rather will make a similar choice like the one that led them here, to return to their home country (or another country) for a better life.

[EFerrari]

49. Immigration is at a 60 year low.

And while you are "cracking down on illegal immigration", you ignore the basic facts that drove those people north in the first place, like NAFTA. Which is a complete waste of your time and my time.

[kelly1mm]

50. I agree that NAFTA was and is a load of crap. I also know that incoming

illegal immigration is a historic lows. But that does not address to 12-20 million+ illegal immigrants that are here in the US. My plan deals with that problem.

[EFerrari]

52. Not really. You suggest a fine that our government would never impose

and a one way ticket for people whose hunger will continue to drive them north until we stop screwing with their elections and with their economy, which I don't see happening any time soon.

[kelly1mm]

54. OK, you are right about the likelyhood of my plan being adopted and

us minding our own business.

I was just putting out my plan as a 'if I was king' type of proposal.

[roody]

102. "Illegal" is an adjective, not a noun.

[kelly1mm]

113. Incorrect. It is both a noun and an adjective. Link to Merriam-Webster

here:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal

And a cut and paste of the definitions

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
2 illegal (noun)

Definition of ILLEGAL

: an illegal immigrant

First Known Use of ILLEGAL
1939

[bigworld]

39. This gives a green light to unsafe drivers

There are a lot of reasons why people don't have drivers' licenses. Yes, they can be poor, but they also may have been unable to pass the driver license test, or have had it confiscated in another state.

I don't think I would want those types of unlicensed drivers behind the wheel.

[EFerrari]

40. Like unsafe drivers ever waited for a green light.

:)

I don't want to argue that people should be scofflaws, especially behind the wheel. But taking the cars of undocumented immigrants is just wrong on so many levels, if their lack of docs is the only issue.

What San Francisco does (or, did at some point) was to allow the driver to make a call for a licensed driver to come and drive the car home.

If there's some other issue besides docs, that's another story. But these fines that go ballistic and out of the reach of normal working people is just another way to steal their property if you take their car away.

[MikeW]

46. not at all

If your undocumented and dont have a license CHANCES ARE PRETTY DAM GOOD YOU never took the test to

A - get a license

B - passed it

C - maintain your vehicle in safe driving condition

and MORE THAN LIKELY you dont have insurance.

Sorry but people advocating this are idiots.

If you dont have a license ( I dont give a rats azz what the reson is ) you dont belong behind the wheel

you can WALK, BIKE or take public transportation.

This will result in the state of Cali getting sued by drivers hit by those who shouldnt be driving in the first

place.

[EFerrari]

48. You know what I do with people who call me an idiot, Mike?

[MikeW]

66. hmmm

you wernt mentioned in my post

dont threaten me

and ... wait for it ....

I DONT CARE WHAT YOU DO

[totodeinhere]

84. I don't know about you, but as a frequent message board poster on this site and others

I have had my fair share of being called an idiot. When that happens I laugh it off and move on. Heck, it's just text flashing on my monitor. It's not as if they are going to reach out and strangle me with their bare hands. I can live with it.

[roody]

126. Undocumented immigrants tend to be extremely safe drivers.

They are doing all in their power to avoid police.

[MikeW]

47. driving in the US isnt a right its a privilege

A privilege that can be taken away if your shown to be irresponsible.

Ask my dumb azzed neighbor ... 3rd DUI - judge told him hes done.

He rides a bike now, better for his liver.

[hunter]

58. Driving drunk is about driving.

Immigration status isn't about driving.

Laws and regulations ought to be directly related to the problem we are trying to solve.

[MikeW]

65. not taking the test makes you just as hazardous

[hunter]

68. So let them take the test.

Problem solved.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hunter]

69. Um, yeah.

Okay.

Where would you like to be deported to?

The internet is a big place. I'm sure there's room for you somewhere.

[roody]

103. "Illegal" is an adjective, not a noun. "Illegals" is not a word.

[kelly1mm]

114. Incorrect. It is both a noun and an adjective. Link to Merriam-Webster

here:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal

And a cut and paste of the definitions

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
2 illegal (noun)

Definition of ILLEGAL

: an illegal immigrant

First Known Use of ILLEGAL
1939

[Downwinder]

64. It may not be a right but it is a necessity of life for many..

I have seen more signs banning pedestrians, bicycles, skates, and horses than I have seen banning cars.

[krabigirl]

72. good. DUI checkpoints are to catch drunk drivers, not for immigration checks or other things.

[Nihil]

74. This is so simple, it would be funny if it were not so pathetic ...

1) No insurance? Take away the car.

2) No licence? That usually means that you can't get insurance so go to #1.
If they are part of the tiny proportion who *do* have insurance but no
valid driving licence, prosecute that as appropriate.

3) Insurance and licence? Thank you very much, drive safely now.


Immigration status doesn't enter into it so quit using it as a smokescreen
(on either side).

:eyes:

[hunter]

78. No, it's this simple...

Drunk driving checkpoint:

1) Not Drunk? Carry on...

2) Drunk? Step out of the car, please.

Done.

Otherwise drunk driving check points are not drunk driving checkpoints, they are simple third-world style police roadblocks wide open to all manners of abuse.

In some places they have already been abused.

[Nihil]

80. The only abuse in my suggestion was being commited by the person driving illegally.

So if a policeman investigating a burglary notices a bloody corpse in one
of the rooms, he should ignore it as he's only investigating a burglary ?

:crazy:

Yes, there is the risk of abuse - as there is with every interaction that
involves potentially bigoted and/or corrupt humans, whether wearing any
type of uniform or not - but changing the law to deliberately allow people
to drive without a "driving licence" is completely ridiculous.

:wtf:

Hey, it's your state (and your country) so it's your problem rather than mine ...
I'm just stating my personal opinion that it's a totally loopy thing to do.

:shrug:

[hunter]

81. It's not a "risk of abuse," it HAS been abused.

I could probably get waved through a drunk driving checkpoint driving a stolen car with a dead body on the back seat.

Someone who isn't white might get their car confiscated and held for ransom for something entirely unrelated to public safety.

[MikeW]

101. if your driving without a license

IT IS AN ISSUE OF PUBLIC SAFETY!!!

[hunter]

105. So you're okay with random searches and seizures...

...and creating arbitrary laws as a means of shaking down classes of people you don't like.

Got it.

[MikeW]

128. nope but ...

What I am OK with is rec. a heavy fine for driving without a license, court appearance


and having your car impounded on the spot.


You drive without a license your breaking the law ... period.

[Chan790]

76. Please tell me Gov. Brown has the good sense to veto this?

I'm not in favor of playing gotcha games...but I've got to say if this gets signed, I'm moving to California and buying a sick ride.

Driver's licensing is fascism, man! How come the DMV gets to say I can't drive just because I can't parallel park, drive in reverse or get my seizure and syncope conditions under control! (Not quite :sarcasm:, but we don't have a :tag for this kind of smartassery.) I should not be driving a car...but if I could drive legally without a license, you wouldn't be able to stop me...and that's fucking madness.

[-..__...]

77. Illegal aliens driving illegally...

and some here condone it.

immigrant drivers without licenses will be driving anyway because of the necessity.

And so the reasoning goes that if they're going to continue to break the law regardless of what it currently is, change the law to accommodate their

unlawful behavior.

Just one more reason to stay far away from CA as possible.

[EFerrari]

87. Promise?

[-..__...]

91. Well.... maybe if I was offered a position working for the BP or ICE...

but even then... I'd have to give it serious thought.

[EFerrari]

92. The Stasi is laying people off right now so I think you're pretty safe. n/t

[-..__...]

94. I never said it had to be a paying position.

[EFerrari]

95. You want to join their volunteer division? Cool.

Brisenia Flores – Minutemen hate crime trial finally makes nationwide news: what took so long?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sn8rHLP3qU8/SjQ5T75DbbI/AAAAAAAABhE/lVZ32x11YYI/s320/brisenia+flores.jpg

http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/02/05/brisenia-flores-minutemen-hate-crime-trial-finally-makes-nationwide-news-what-took-so-long/

[-..__...]

108. Nahhhh...

I hear their dental pan sucks and there's no per diem for providing your own ammo.

[EFerrari]

112. I saw a short documentary on border militias that should have been made into a cartoon.

These guys were all about petty crime, wife beating, shooting each other and themselves drunk. Those folding chairs should come with helmets, lol. I bet the boarder patrol hates them.

[-..__...]

116. All, some or a few?

without a doubt there is always going to be a few bad apples that ruin the bunch.

Same can be said of some of the pro-illegals/open borders types here on DU.

Like it or not... somethings just don't sit well with the general public.

Crazed Milita Men or open gate border jumpers... whatever.

You "saw a short documentary on border militias that should have been made into a cartoon".

Interesting.

Do you believe it to be true, do you want it to be true, or could it be biased?

Give me a title, name, link or something to Google on.

I'd be interested in seeing it... even if for shits and giggles.

[EFerrari]

117. I think it was on LINKTv although it could have been on Free Speech TV .

I'll go see if I can dig up a link. Brb .

[EFerrari]

118. I think it was this one:

http://www.walkingthelinefilm.com/trailer

And, sorry, I won't debate about these racist nutcases with you. Life is too short.

[-..__...]

120. Thanks...

I'll check it out... I have to update my Quicktime software first.

[EFerrari]

121. That's just the trailer.

I don't know if it is on line. Link was playing it a lot before the tea party pushed the Minute Men off the front pages.

[roody]

104. We won't miss you!

[-..__...]

107. Likewise...

I'm sure.

[roody]

124. You probably would not enjoy seeing millions of Mexican people.

[Unvanguard]

79. I have no problem with protecting undocumented people.

And, given that, I probably support this bill. But the safety concerns seem very legitimate to me. I wish there were a better solution--though maybe there isn't short of real immigration reform.

[hunter]

106. There is a better solution.

The stated purpose of these check points is to discourage drunk driving.

If the driver is not drunk, wave them through.

Further than that, open drivers license testing to all residents of California, documented or not.

Done. Problem solved without violating anyones civil rights.

[EFerrari]

110. That makes a lot of sense. CA residents should be able to get licenses.

Not having them only creates problems.

[Unvanguard]

122. Undocumented California residents absolutely need access to drivers' licenses.

Really should be a no-brainer.

[lynne]

100. I'm thinking that lazy, white, priviledged teens are going to enjoy this law, too -

- as well as anyone else who can't be bothered to study for the driving test.

[Mz Pip]

115. Exactly

This is not just about undocumented people. I hope the law gets vetoed. It's ridiculous to believe that this is just about undocumented workers.

[EFerrari]

119. If there is no offense but no license, there is no harm in it.

What is the problem, exactly?

[AverageJoe90]

123. Hope it passes. n/t

[Synicus Maximus]

129. So why would anyone pay for a licence?