Pornography conference blasted as 'meat market' by protesters

[alp227]

Source: The Guardian

Dozens of feminists have staged a protest in central London to protest against the "meat market" of the pornography industry, as adult entertainment executives attended an international trade summit in Bloomsbury.

Dressed as butchers in aprons smeared with fake blood, the activists waved pretend meat cleavers and chanted anthems outside the Radisson hotel in Bloomsbury. "You're not welcome in our city," they sang. "Pornographers go home!"

The three-day XBIZ EU conference, which opened for the first time in London on Friday, is billed as an "international digital media conference" for the adult entertainment industry.

Speakers include Michael Klein, president of Hustler, the pornographic magazine and website, and Berth Milton, chairman and chief executive of Private Media Group, a producer and distributor of pornography. Its website says it is "designed to deliver cutting-edge educational seminars, engaging technology workshops, special guest keynote presentations and high-energy business-networking and deal-making opportunities".

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2011/sep/23/pornography-conference-meat-market-protesters

---

Feminists dress up as butchers smeared with fake blood to protest against the porn industry summit in London. Photograph: Linda Nylind for the Guardian

Question: given how European countries have laws against inciting hatred, could porn be construed as such?

[Kurska]

1. I'm gay my porn has nothing to do with women. Quit trying to dictate my private life to me.

Can we please address some real issues and not this idiotic and authoritarian moralizing?

[defendandprotect]

37. Congratulations if your porn doesn't degrade women -- but OTHER porn does and is a real issue -- !!

Thought we were all in this together - especially fighting for human rights for all?

[Kurska]

69. If gay porn doesn't degrade men, why does straight porn degrade women? n/t

[defendandprotect]

80. Why wouldn't abuse of women in porn bother anyone -- gay or straight?

These videos showing violent treatment of females and degrading situations

should be troublesome for anyone to watch --

Even more so when we hear how men "love" women but they get off on watching

videos of women being abused --

As for gay porn, your question is one for gay males to answer --

[Xithras]

83. I've watched a lot of porn in my life.

Abusive and violent porn is a relatively small sub-genre enjoyed by S&M types. Violence, force, and abuse are almost unheard of in mainstream porn.

Reading through this discussion, I see the same meme being repeated over and over...that porn is violent and abusive. Can you actually cite any evidence demonstrating that even a simple majority of porn videos fall into this category?

Porn caters to fantasy, but more often than not it's the "horny housewife wants the hot gardener", or "lost sailor washed up on an island full of Amazons", or "hot lesbians explore the hardbody pizza guy" fantasies that are being catered to. In my experience, domination porn is uncommon. Even ass-to-mouth scenes, which have been mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, are actually only found in a small percentage of porn videos. I can probably count all the A2M scenes I've seen in my LIFE on my fingers. Why? Because most men find them as gross as women do. Again, it's a kink that only appeals to a limited number of people.

There are some real broad brush anti-porn assumptions present in this thread that aren't being supported by cites, research, or facts..

[defendandprotect]

89. That's not true -- abuse and violent porn is the norm on the internet ...

and growing ever more abusive and degrading with females as the subjects --

Violence, force, and abuse are almost unheard of in mainstream porn.

Do you really need to be reminded of HUSTLER MAGAZINE and its infamous glossy cover

of a woman being put thru a meatgrinder?

Anyone at all familiar with internet porn these days will tell you that you are quite

mistaken whether we discuss the past or the present --

And for some of the most recent descriptions I'd recommend Gail Dines' PORNLAND --

Pornography does NOT "cater to fantasy" -- it caters to pre-designed fantasy often based

on rape and violence of women --


Rather, today's internet porn is largely pushing violent, assaultive sex vs women as NORMAL.

And that is average porn available on the internet -- not even "for pay porn" --

[Xithras]

110. Repeating something doesn't make it true. Here are some numbers for you.

I asked for some numbers, and instead you fell back on a magazine cover produced a third of a century ago? You cited a book that has been blasted in the press as containing anecdotes, hyperbole, and inflammatory language while lacking any actual unbiased research or cites? The critical press by the way, includes Publishers Weekly, a trade journal for authors, librarians, and booksellers...not exactly porn industry activists. Dines herself isn't exactly an unbiased source, being the founder of an anti-porn group who has been described as "the worlds leading anti-porn crusader", and who has been accused by other feminists of trying to spark a moral panic instead of basing her opposition on facts, statistics, or virtually any other solid foundation that rational and thinking people would recognize. She is, for all practical discussion, the feminist version of the religious fundamentalist...facts don't matter, because she "knows" how things really are.

So, let's talk about what "average porn" is really like. As it happens, the Internet makes this quite easy for us.

Many years ago, some enterprising people came up with the concept of the TGP/FHG site. In essence, these are places where various porn studio and site operators (both the big corporate types and the small indies) post full movies, clips, and photos for free. It's the porn equivalent of the free sample, and they give it away for largely the same reason. They hope you'll like their videos, in the hopes that you will come to their site and become a regular paying customer. Some of the largest TGP/FHG sites can have dozens, or even hundreds, of new clips and full length movies posted every day, as hundreds of competing site operators post their wares while trying to catch your eyeballs. These sites present a great research opportunity, because they effectively act as a cross-sectional example of the porn being produced and marketed across the Internet RIGHT NOW, condensed into one easy to review website.

Being the helpful person I am, I pointed my browser to a few of the biggest TGP sites on the Internet (extremely NSFW sites, but in the spirit of cites and public verification, I hit redtube, youporn, and xhamster). I looked at their homepages, which contain videos of all genres mixed together, and tried to determine the percentage of each that were based on violence, force, or abuse.

My results? Viewing the "Latest Videos" page on the three sites resulted in 91 videos and clips being advertised. While 37 of them has misogynistic titles (e.g. "Hot sl** takes a fat co**"), the actual content is of more interest to this discussion. Out of 91 videos, 7 had plots based on the degradation of women, and FOUR were based on violence or force (this number includes one video with a woman who consented, but she was highly intoxicated which suggested questionable ability to consent, so I included it anyway).

So, of the 91 latest porn publications being pushed on the homepages of three of the largest pornographic hubs on the Internet, 7.6% were based on plot themes that advocated the degradation or humiliation of the women involved, and 4.4% were based on plot themes suggesting violence, force, or coercion.

And the remainder? Women masturbating on web cams, fantasies involving the girl next door, friends mothers, random strangers, porn stars, friends, firefighters, and on and on. There's everything from group sex orgies to farm girls rolling in the hay with the farmhands. A huge chunk didn't have any story at all, and simply depicted two or more people having sex. All of it was consensual, both in actuality, and in story plot.

Unless you can provide an actual cite demonstrating otherwise, this cursory examination supports my own longtime anecdotal experiences, which strongly disagree with the position that porn is overwhelmingly violent and degrading. As I stated in my last post, there is no denying that there IS a sub-genre that specializes in that kind of abuse, but it's a rather small portion of the overall porn market. The overwhelming majority of porn (88% based on the numbers I posted above) contains scenes that depict consensual sexual fantasies where both the male and female actors play willing partners who are participating in mutually enjoyable sexual activity.

So, I ask again: Can you provide any serious evidence to support your claim that "abuse and violent porn is the norm on the internet"? How about simply proving that a majority of porn (51%) qualifies as violent, abusive, or degrading?

[defendandprotect]

120. Well, take your own advice --

"Repeating something doesn't make it true.."


Numbers -- how about RESEARCH -- go to Gail Dines and read what she describes of every day

pornography found on the internet -- not pay for porn --


Re HUSTLER MAG -- the content and intent of the porn industry and its degradation of women

hasn't changed in a half century -- that's the point! And I imagine had it been Ms Magazine

which put a male thru a meat-grinder, you wouldn't be so casual about it!

One thing men certainly know well and understand is the power of a put-down, especially

when delivered by a female -- and they will always either individually or together react

to it loudly and clearly!


And, again, this is a $10 BILLION a year industry and still growing -- and there are

without doubt strong attacks on any anti-porn influences -- as we can see from this thread!


And yet your research is to be trusted -- ROFL

Nonetheless, you confirm finding "degradation of women" and "violence or force"

And for the biggest ROFL ...

All of it was consensual, both in actuality, and in story plot.

How naive are you?


But, well, we'll certainly take your word for the entire internet of pornography and for the

entire industry! ROFL


And let's not either pretend that you're being persecuted by Gail Dines/PORLAND -- her reasearch

and book are just one of many studies and tons of research which point to the same findingss --

pornography is too often based on sexual assult of females, violence -- degrading and humiliating

story lines and events which seek to dehumanize females --

and more and more frequently internet porn is depicting scenes which could only create actual

physical damage to females from multiple entries and deep oral penetration --



Meanwhile, the mental health industry has proclaimed that pornography is addictive --

and many families are awakening in shock to find male family members addicted to internet

porn on a level sereiously disrupting their lives -- !



And, again, the question remains -- why do males who claim to love women so often seek out

videos portraying abuse and violence against females to get off on?

[Xithras]

136. No, I'm offering cites, not anecdotes.

That's the problem with people like Dines. She's built a career out of anecdotes, sidestepping actual hard research to put those anecdotes into perspective.

Look, if I wanted to spend a few weeks, I could probably put together a list of thousands of the most disgusting, horrifying, and abusive free porn videos on the Internet. Everything from forced sex, to oral urination and scat play, to other storylines that would curl your toes in disgust. I could spend hours showing them to you, and all would genuinely be representative of the abuses and degradation that the porn industry can heap on women.

Of course, without research you cannot have perspective. While there may be thousands, or even tens of thousands, of horrifically abusive videos out there, they are a tiny percentage of the estimated tens of millions of porn movies, clips, and photos that are currently available online.

And the beauty of my argument is that you don't have to take my word for it. You merely have to open your mind, open your eyes, and look yourself. Don't rely on the biased pseudoscience of others. Go look yourself. Right now. Browse the sites. Watch the videos. Take out a pencil and keep track of the abusive videos, and their ratios in comparison to those that merely portray fantasies and conventional sex. Surf a few dozen TGP sites, look at a few hundred videos, and open your eyes to the reality of the porn that normal people consume every day,

So, to answer your question: "why do males who claim to love women so often seek out videos portraying abuse and violence against females to get off on"?

Most of us don't. Most of us look at "regular" porn, which is neither violent or abusive. Like most men, I have no interest in watching portrayals of rapes, beatings, forced sex, or degrading and humiliating sex acts. Like most men, I'd much rather watch the cute girl next door and the pool guy. Like most men, I'll take sweet and sexy over violence and scat any day.

So put away your broad brush.

[defendandprotect]

157. Btw, let's remind ourselves of Linda Lovelace/Deep Throat ---

somewhere down on the thread you'll note a guy suggesting he'd be happy to be

exploited and paid in porn as these women are -- !! hmmm.....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5004300&mesg_id=5007205



And don't know how long it's been since you've looked at the internet but the harcore

stuff is ordinary now --

And -- yet you've seen it all -- you're in denial of it!


But I do appreciate your personal response to my question --

However, though you may be veering away from the abuse and violence, many other males

aren't -- !!

[snooper2]

194. Gail Dines is a fucking idiot and a loser

Read this transcript of an debate she had with Anna Arrowsmith....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/05/conversation-gail-dines-anna-arrowsmith

[Beer Snob-50]

195. I agree that abusive and violent porn is relatively small subset of the porn industry

or at least what i have seen. however, i would submit that it is degrading to at least to one of the people in the video..... i have never seen gay porn, but i can imagine that there is as high incidence of oral sex including deep throating. the person performing is usually gagging during these videos (something i am sure they or most people would not be doing in theri real lives) I think when men ejaculate on their partners face, it is not something most people would do in their real lives...

just a sampling of what i consider degrading.

[defendandprotect]

212. +1 ---

and there are many of these painful examples covered in Gail Dine's book --

PORNLAND -- and in her articles which can be read on the internet.

[Xithras]

225. The four most important words in your post...

"just a sampling of what i consider degrading."

We have to be very careful, when discussing porn, to avoid blurring the line between genuine violence and brutality, and simply imposing our own moral worldview on others. One persons "degrading" is another persons "perfectly acceptable", and that divergence of moral opinion is where a lot of the fire in the arguments over pornography are born. I know people who believe that it's degrading for women to wear short skirts. I know women who believe that it's degrading for other women to shave themselves. I know women who believe that it's degrading for women to perform either oral or anal sex with a man. I know women who think it's degrading for other women to engage in a ménage à trois. These are all genuine moral beliefs held by real people. On the other hand, there are plenty of women who do these things every day, and see nothing wrong with any of them. They hold a different moral worldview, and reject the moralizing of others on their own consensual behaviors.

As it happens, I've never really understood the whole bukkake thing, but men have been ejaculating on womens bodies since the beginning of time, so it's not exactly a rare thing. "Pulling out" is one of the oldest forms of birth control, and often results in the woman becoming covered in semen. The face thing started when oral sex became more popular, because many women don't like to swallow the "results". Some women find it objectionable and degrading. Others consider it part of the sexual experience and have no problem with it. Who'se right?

We can all agree that porn movies that depict violence and force are a problem, but they are a small percentage of the overall porn market. You're never going to get widespread support for efforts against "degrading" pornography, because one womans "degrading and immoral" is another womans "awesome weekend".

[FreeState]

231. As to the gay porn and what you think gay men find degrading, you are wrong n/t

[slackmaster]

53. That's right. Gay male porn only degrades men.

Men don't matter as much as women do.

[Mr Deltoid]

2. Yep, it's a meat market

So is a night club, go picket one.

[SoapBox]

4. Agreed...

I'm torn on this.

Safety first. No abuse. No "sex trade". Etc.

but...as an adult...if I want to watch, exactly why can't I?

[LoZoccolo]

3. !

:popcorn:

[Orrex]

5. Out of curiosity, I wonder which is more destructive to women: porn or organized religion?

Just wondering.

[Kurska]

6. I have, and it seems I always shall, fail to see how porn is the least bit destructive to women.

Especially considering a huge amount of porn has zero to do with women (gay porn).

[Orrex]

10. That's a fine point

When people protest gay porn, they invariably protest it because it's an "unnatural abomination" or the like, and not because it objectifies/destroys gay men.

[Kurska]

11. Even more to the point, I've never heard another gay man tell me they felt objectified by gay porn.

I'm certainly not buying the "female stand in" idea express down thread. It is stereotyping and disrespectful to all gay relationships to imply that one man has to assume a female roll to have meaningful sexual contact with another male.

[saras]

12. You should look into the porn industry. You will see how, no question about it.

If all you do is CONSUME porn, no, you'll never know anything at all about the industry. Porn is about fantasy - it's just not in their interest to have you know anything about the reality involved.

Yeah, I know, you don't watch ORDINARY porn, just elite porn - NPR porn instead of Rush Limbaugh porn. It's too bad the sleazy stuff is the vast majority, just like streetwalkers and crack whores far outnumber intelligent, independent call girls.

Proportionately gay porn bears about the same numerical relationship to straight as gay relationships do to straight. Your "huge amount" is around 10%.

[Kurska]

13. I don't see your point.

If gay men don't feel objectified by gay porn, why do women feel objectified by heterosexual porn? Can the porn industry be objectifying, sure. Does that mean all porn is objectifying, absolute not.

[defendandprotect]

39. Why wouldn't themes of violence and domination cause anyone to feel exploited and

objectified?

That you perhaps don't find those to be issues in gay porn doesn't mean

they don't occur in porn where females appear!

One has nothing to do with the other --

Just takes a bit of conscious-raising!

[Kurska]

66. Some people like being dominated, some people like to dominate.

I don't see why putting that sort of behavior on film is wrong. If isn't your cup of tea, don't watch it. If someone tries it with someone who doesn't want to, that is rape and that is already illegal.

[defendandprotect]

81. We aren't talking about "people" -- we are talking about males absuing women

in porn videos --

And while it is alleged "fantasy," it is an industry selling ideas to males --

abuse of women and degrading situations --- repeated over and again.


Themes of domination are harmful whether they show women being oppressed and abused --

or anyone else being subjugated and abused --

Fantasy is something intellectual --

Pornography is something actually having happened and recorded --

There's a vast difference --


What we need to question is why males are so attracted to violent and abusive

treatment of women -- attracted enough to get off on it -- !!

[booley]

107. So the death star really does exist?

And it blew up a planet called Alderaan?

I mean that was recorded as well.

Oh there must really be vampires and werewolves since I have recordings of people saying they are such and even using supernatural powers.

OR... it's all a fantasy all acted out. The only difference is between day dreaming and tellings others what you thought up.

Sheesh....

Ok now that I got that out of the way two other things.

First, what a dismal perception of men and human beings in general you seem to have. That if one fantasizes about something then that means they will do so in reality? IF that were true then the human race would go extinct as every spouse and every parent and every person who ever drove a car would be come a homicidal maniac.

Believe it or not, men do have some ability to control their actions and tell right from wrong.

Secondly, we have your question....

What we need to question is why males are so attracted to violent and abusive

treatment of women -- attracted enough to get off on it -- !!

This is somewhat complicated and so it bothers me how you try to dumb it down.

Yes those damn men who get off on violent and abusive treatment (at least in fantasy). What's up with them?

Oh and what's up with the WOMEN who also get off on violent and abusive treatment IN FANTASY?

Well as I said, it's complicated and deserving of more then a few psychology books.

But one answer is it's appeal is that it's a taboo. It's something someone would never do in real life and so the fantasy has an attraction for that alone.

Which means not only is your premise flawed on the most basic level (since seeing the fantasy acted out does not necessarily mean someone will do it for real. In fact it can suppress it.) But these protests only make the fantasy more appealing.

[defendandprotect]

125. Are hou ctually trying to suggest that the "actors" in these videos aren't real people ...?

Or maybe you are suggesting that the multiple penetrations and -- or

scenes in Deep Throat -- didn't actually take place?

If denial is the way you need to go -- LOL!

[booley]

145. Oh yes the actors are real

the situations they are acting out are NOT.

So while two guys in a kung fu movie really are fighting, they aren't actually trying to kill each other.

Sorry, should have dumbed down my point. I had assumed you could grasp reality at the average grade school level at least.

But hey if you want to pretend this is MY problem, I cant' stop you.

[defendandprotect]

153. Here's a little Linda Lovelace/Deep Throat reality you should catch up with ... !!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5004300&mesg_id=5007205

[booley]

198. Classic logical fallacy

Affirming the consequent.

Linda Love lace worked in Porn
Linda Love lace was abused by her husband.
Therefore Porn causes domestic abuse.

Not saying she didn't have an abusive husband. By all accounts she did. BUT that doesn't hold that her husband being abusive means everyone in porn is a gun toting psychopath.

The extreme parts of her story (being kidnapped by the mod and raped at gun point) might have happened. But it was only brought up at her divorce trial. There was no criminal trial. Which is kind of weird since kidnapping and being held at gun point are crimes. Even if she was afraid at the time, she clearly got over it if she divorced him. And there is no statute of limitations on kidnapping to my knowledge.

Independent sources verify her ex husband was a sadist. And he probably did beat her. That however does not mean this is the norm or even has anything to do with pornography,.

And her claim that she didnt' get paid rests on rather self serving semantics, that the $1200 she was paid was taken by her husband.

this sounds too much like people who claim they victims of satanic abuse. They always go over the top in their claims. Even when there's actual abuse, it's not the abuser who is claimed to be ultimately responsible for it but instead some outside force. Porn, Satan, Wicca, it doesn't matter. Somehow THAT'S the cause. Not that the abusive person they are talking about was abusive regardless of what other activity he was associated with. I guess that's why it has to be some criminal conspiracy rather then just one guy who's an asshole and/or someone's bad choices.

Or as "Adult-film actress Gloria Leonard is quoted as saying, "This was a woman who never took responsibility for her own <...> choices made; but instead blamed everything that happened to her in her life on porn."

The fact is people who make porn don't need to hold a gun to anyone's head. There are plenty of woman who will happily take money to do it. There are even some who will do it for free. But the fact remains they choose to do it.

[GliderGuider]

204. +1 Well put. /nt

[defendandprotect]

208. Your response is classic denial --

Lovelace and many others have reported being FORCED --

The extreme parts of her story (being kidnapped by the mod and raped at gun point) might have happened . . . .

Of course, women are never kidnapped for sexual purposes -- !! :eyes:

And, guess you've failed to notice that with the rise of the RW we've had increasing global

trade in sexual slavery -- ?? Routes also coming thru the US -- !! :eyes:


And her claim that she didnt' get paid rests on rather self serving semantics, that the $1200 she was paid was taken by her husband.

As they say, watching porn eventually creates "insensitivity" and "callousness" towards women and

the abuse they suffer in porn.


The fact is people who make porn don't need to hold a gun to anyone's head. There are plenty of woman who will happily take money to do it. There are even some who will do it for free. But the fact remains they choose to do it.


This is untrue -- there is no basis to presume universal consent of these women --

Many have no idea of the extremes of porn today and the impact on their bodies --

and because of that physical damage many are lasting in the industry only a feew months.

[booley]

227. You're in denial about denial

All you can come up with is one spurious example.

You clearly are making a fallacious argument. A few of them actually.

And you are treating your personal prejudices as if they were fact.

As I said below. You are debating. you are not trying to engage in a dialogue.

You are simply ranting. Ignoring any evidence ot the contrary of what you want to believe and name calling anyone who disagrees with you.

[defendandprotect]

229. ROFL -- No global sex trade -- and no violence in porn ... !!

There are many like Linda Lovelace -- as you well know --

And now being concerned about violence against women is a "prejudice" -- Wow!

:eyes: --


And you're on ignore -- bye !!

[toopers]

142. Some people practice BDSM . . .

and some people make movies to satisfy both the slave and the master. It is not my cup of tea but my master makes me watch it anyway!

[defendandprotect]

154. Women have long suffered phyusical assault and violence in pornography ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5004300&mesg_id=5007205

[toopers]

171. I never said it did not happen . . .

but not all pornography is violent. My point being that there are different strokes for different folks, and there is a video out there that caters to all strokes. Things you consider demeaning maybe considered a turn on to some women and men. If we determine what is "safe" for people to view I can promise that it will not stop with porn. There are constant battles with conservative parents who want to ban books from libraries.

[defendandprotect]

213. So you're not arguing that porn isn't abusive and violent ---

you're just arguing that "not all" of it is abusive and violent?

Have you actually seen ALL of it -- or is that your eventual goal? ROFL


Things you consider demeaning maybe considered a turn on to some women and men.

These are things which most people consider demeaning --- and the question really is

why would any male or female find sexual abuse of females in these videos to be

entertainment or something to get off on?

Though I did hear that some thought that Cheney and others watched TORTURE films and

got off on them!


If we determine what is "safe" for people to view I can promise that it will not stop with porn. There are constant battles with conservative parents who want to ban books from libraries.

This is a matter of consciousness-raising -- not censorship --

To awaken the public and to stop the abuse of women in these films -- for one.

[vminfla]

16. Lots of descriptors in your thread

most, vast majority, proportionally, numerical relationship, 10%....

Where are you getting your numbers? I happen to know, that statistically, 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[saras]

23. You even got a wrong number for that one...

If you don't want to go look, you can just say so.

re numbers - go and actually look, closely, at even a dozen porn filmings, chosen at random, not selected for niceness. Get a job as a cameraman or something. Build fucking machines. Recruit actors for porn. Whatever. When you have numbers, like or different than mine, we can talk.

[Kurska]

27. The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim.

You quoted statistics, we're asking you to cite them.

[defendandprotect]

48. The burden of raising one's own consciousness rests on the individual ....

What did it take for you to recognize that Nazi propaganda against Jews was "proof"

of their claims? How much of it did you have to watch to get it?



What did it take for you to recognize that Christians preaching that GLTB were an

"OBMINATION" was the preaching of hatred -- and created violence against gays/lesbians?

How much of it did you have to hear to understand that it threated the safety of gays

and lesbians?


How many times did you have to hear racists say that AA were "inferior" and "laxy" and

"stupid" for you to understand that propaganda is a tool of elites used to exploit other

human beings?

[Kurska]

67. Porn isn't propaganda it is adult films intended to get people off.

You're posting the same things over and over again while not backing them up.

[defendandprotect]

74. Pornography is propaganda against women -- no different from racist or homophobic propaganda ...

and no matter how many times you might try to deny it -- it is undeniable.

[defendandprotect]

75. ...and maybe you want to explain "getting off" on abuse and violence vs women?

Who allegedly men love?

[MADem]

99. I note a premature ejaculation of "Godwin's Law" here. Nazis? So early in the discussion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[defendandprotect]

126. "Godwin's Law" so early in the discussion ... ROFL --

Earliest propaganda is probably by Vatican -- organized propaganda, that is --

but certainly much of the Nazi propaganda was based on that model --

and yes, the comaprison is that pornogrpahy is organized propaganda against women!

[vminfla]

50. Positive aspects of Pornography

OK, here are a couple of research papers on the positive aspects of pornography

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_43/ai_n16102421/
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CFMQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.associatedcontent.com%2Farticle%2F248654%2F5_reasons_why_pornography_is_good_for.html&ei=FOF9TuTGG4Kbtwf7orBM&usg=AFQjCNGqKPCeE4bD0XTzRivGi1gqZ7qCNA

So, we have your random speculation based on your personal bias...and then we have the facts.

[defendandprotect]

84. ROFL -- We're making $10 BILLION a year exploiting women - leave us alone -- !!

#1 -- "Society is burdened today by countless numbers of males who feel lonely,

depressed and downright insufficient -- Pornography allows these males the opportunity

to release their innermost desires and feel whole again. Strokes their ego --

Reduces crime, increases work productivity and makes males feel better about themselves"


Translation -- Males need to see females being abused and subjugated in order to feel good

about themselves!! And to keep them from crimes!! :rofl:


#2 -- Without hardcore pornography, males would have nothing to talk about and would be bored.

Translation -- Many males lack even sufficient imagination to create a fantasy of their own

and are dependent upon an $10 BILLION a year industry to abuse and degrade women for them.

:rofl:


#3 -- Men can't control themselves or their sexual desires and if there wasn't a pornography

industry they'd have to stalk, rape and seek underage sex --

Males don't have sufficient imagination to be able to pleasure themselves without an industry

providing the wherewithal --

Translation: Males will rape, harass and and stalk women and young girls if we don't give

them porn which teaches them how to rape and harass and sexually abuse women and females who

look like young girls! :rofl:


#4 -- What company would be willing to hire a woman who used to be in pornography? Let's face it, some people are best suited to marketing their bodies rather than anything else. And who could blame them? Stupid people who are unemployed can become more than a detriment to society and can pose a threat to society if they are left unemployed.

Translation: We have to admit that women are right about pornography degrading women, but

exploiting and harming women provides $10 BILLION a year for the industry which loves to hate

women and show them being sexually absued on videos for men to get off on. :rofl:


#5 -- Pornography industry makes $10 BILLION a year in profits for corporations exploiting and

degrading women --

Translation: Sexism, Racism, Homophobia is profitable for the few -- so is slavery.

:nuke:

[vminfla]

97. Translations

"Males need to see females being abused and subjugated in order to feel good about themselves!! And to keep them from crimes!! "

Translation: Since I do not like it, I will call it abuse and hope nobody notices.


But, yes, Pornography is a $10 Billion a year enterprise. We should do more to create jobs in these hard economic times. Let's not put a stop to small business owners who provide jobs and incomes to so many people because a handful of people are uncomfortable with men and women expressing their sexuality. Let's continue on and being sexist, telling women what they can and cannot do for their own good.

[defendandprotect]

128. Rare to find anyone denying that females are "abused" or "degraded" in internet porn ...

But if denial is the way you need to go -- LOL


But, yes, Pornography is a $10 Billion a year enterprise. We should do more to create jobs in these hard economic times. Let's not put a stop to small business owners who provide jobs and incomes to so many people because a handful of people are uncomfortable with men and women expressing their sexuality. Let's continue on and being sexist, telling women what they can and cannot do for their own good.

Ah, yes -- the poor pornographers who should have the right to exploit females!!

Let's consider their interests -- !! ROFL


In fact, let's bring back slavery -- that was highly profitable as well as a business!


Abuse and violence is not a normal expression of human sexuality -- and trust you know that!

However, the pornography industry would like to make it a norm!

[vminfla]

143. Not uncommon to find those that want to limit peoples freedom on the internet

The arguments proferred, thus far, read right out of Andrew Dwokin's playbook. Not all heterosexual sex is rape, as Dwokin would have you believe. Likewise, there is no meaningful scientific study that shows pornography is "bad".

Quite the opposite, in fact. Pornographic material is up in the US. Violent crime, including violent crime against women is down. Although there is no causal relationship between the two as you would imply, the numbers disprove your notion entirely. If anything, there is not enough pornography because there is still violence against women. We owe it to the next generation to make more pornos and keep them safe.

[defendandprotect]

149. Guess Linda Lovelace/Deep Throat was trying to "limit people's freedom" on internet - ROFL

Same playbook as the gun industry --

and the argument works if you don't look at the victims and the costs to society -- !!


Until females have FULL Constitutional equality -- there is no argument that can be made

that they are not still exploited and oppressed -- not only domestically but internationally!

Additionally --

Likewise, there is no meaningful scientific study that shows pornography is "bad".

If you had actually read any of my posts you'd know that the Mental Health Professionals

have added "addiction to pornography" to their lists --

Or if you were aware of the current research into internet porn you might also be aware that

many families are awakening to find husbands and fathers addicted to internet porn -- to the

point where it negatively affecting their lives!


Of course the pornography industry is expanding -- it's a $10 BILLION industry --

with constant internet exposure giving them easy access to luring in new customers.


America is one of the most violent nations on the planet --

And rape is a highly underreported crime -- so we don't really always know what the numbers

are -- except that what's reported is rarely the entire story of rape.

And certainly rapists themselves point to a connection between pornography and rape of women --



And here's some info on Linda Lovelace and her testimony to Congress --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5004300&mesg_id=5007205

[vminfla]

159. Nothing in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)

There is no diagnosis of pornography addiction in the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). If you had posted any reference to any mental health professional alleging that as opposed to just making the statement, I would love to see the link.

The science does not support your assertion, neither do the statistical facts of crime within the US. Although you offered up a compelling anecdotal tale from the last century of spousal abuse that may have been tangentially related to pornography, ultimately it is an anecdotal tale with no far reaching conclusions.

[defendandprotect]

165. Untrue ---

and I'm looking for the reference -- unfortunately I didn't pick up the details

first time around --

But meanwhile, you might want to read this -- which not only Gail Dines' has written

about but which has been the subject of TV shows and articles --


We should be taking porn very seriously. Studies show that the more porn men watch, the more they want to play out porn sex in the real world. They become bored with their sex partners because they don’t look or act like the women in porn.

What is new over the past five years or so is young men admitting their addiction to pornography. I had been somewhat sceptical of the addiction model, thinking that it was a way for men to avoid taking responsibility for their porn use. But sex and relationship therapists Wendy Maltz and Larry Maltz discuss in their book The Porn Trap how therapists are seeing a wave of porn addicts looking for help. They find that “what used to be a small problem for relatively few people had grown to a societal issue that was spilling over and causing problems in the lives of countless everyday people”.

http://mindsplinter.org/2011/05/gail-dines-and-pornography/comment-page-1/


Keep in mind we're also talking about an introductory age of 11 year old males accessing

internet porn!

[vminfla]

167. Again, nothing in the DSM supports your opinion

Although Dine's rhetoric does not rise to her predecessor Dwokin who compared heterosexual sex to rape, she is equally unqualified. Dine is, in fact, a professor of Women's studies and not a mental health professional. She proffers her opinions on the basis of her own moral lense, and not on peer-reviewed scientific research.


And, if you think I am making an ad hominem attack against Dine, read her own words regarding her conduct on the falsely accused Duke Lacrosse Team:

My anger at the way the media humanized these men as victims and dehumanized the woman as the perpetrator of a lie clearly stood out from the rest of the show. And this was, I am now convinced, the producer�s goal. I was set up in the show to be an example of the problem -- white liberal elites who have taken political correctness too far. I was not brought on as a researcher or activist but as an example of how feminists �rush to judgment� in order to further their man-hating propaganda.

http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0119-21.htm

[defendandprotect]

169. It's not "opinion" -- it was cited by Gail Dines ---

when I come upon the reference again I'll be happy to supply it for you --

Feminism is also a respected field -- and certainly women are the victims of this

highly profitable industry --

And, again -- as long as women do not have Constitutional equality -- no argument can be

made that they are not oppressed/exploited -- which narrows their life choices --

including re marriage and sexual relationships.

I don't know anyone who would not argue that the intention of marriage was to reverse

the matriarchal line/identity -- and to make women property. Are you denying that?


Nor is "talking therapy" thought of as quite the authority it once was -- i.e., since

Betty Friedan unlaced women from Freud and put him in the garbage can. However, that is

not to say that these professionals don't have the experience of hearing what what males

are reporting re being addicted to pornography.

Not unlike what was heard from rapists in our prisons who cited pornography being linked

to their motivation to rape women.

And certainly, we fail in every way as a society if we fail to judge abuse and violence against

women as something immoral!


As for Dines comments re the La Crosse team -- while I didn't see the show and have yet to check

your link -- it would be no surprise that a feminist might be "set up" on show on this issue.

As though we haven't seen an organized backlash against feminism in this country over the last

decades -- ???

And I highly agree with Dines that the males were portrayed as "vicims" while the female was

"dehumanized" --

Nor do I agree that these males were falsely accused --

If these particular athletes didn't in fact attack this particular woman we have an endless

number of sports figures and "gang rapes" by athletes -- and soldiers in our military -- to

suggest that there is a widespread problem with male violence -- especially vs women!

[vminfla]

175. If it cannot withstand the scrutiny of Peer review, it IS opinion

OK, I need to review your salient points here:

1. The Duke Lacrosse team was acquitted on all charges, yet you think they are guilty because of their inherit maleness.

2. You are defending the woman who falsely accused them and who later killed her boyfriend by stabbing him -- Was she watching too many pornos? http://articles.cnn.com/2011-04-18/justice/north.carolina.lacrosse.accuser_1_murder-charge-duke-lacrosse-mike-pressler?_s=PM:CRIME

3. Dines was discredited by the mere fact that she defended the indefensible. She unquestioningly accepted the word of the false accuser, with obvious mental health issues and accussed the Duke Lacrosse Team of outright "maleness".

4. You insinuate watching sex will lead to violence -- I can only imagine what unholy terror would be unleashed onto the world if people were to actually have lots of sex.

5. You finally find the single mental health professional who has made a career condeming pornography by testifying as an expert witness and founding the Lighted Candle Society. As a member of the Latter Day Saints, how much does his faith color his science? Granted, that can be construed as an ad hominem attack. However, when you couple that with the fact that none of his research papers withstood the scrutiny of peer review because of their heavy use of anecdotal tales (such as your assertion that Linda Lovelace is demonstrative of the entire porn industry rather than one bad marriage).

6. Violent crimes are down, thus discounting the causality argument that you cling to. Yet, you are aware of secret crimes that show that violent crimes are, in fact, up.


In short, in your world view: men are bad.

[defendandprotect]

185. Again -- pornography addiction has been added to "addictions" --

And you're also missing the point that not only is Dines' pointing to this problem

but those in the medical field are continually researching the problem based on what

they are seeing and hearing from families/victims of porn addiction --

Check the internet -- you'll see a tremendous number of reports on those findings --

it's a growing and excalating problem -- male addiction to pornography.


1. The Duke Lacrosse team was acquitted on all charges, yet you think they are guilty because of their inherit maleness.

Yes -- I believe something happened that night based on sexual abuse of this woman.

2. You are defending the woman who falsely accused them and who later killed her boyfriend by stabbing him -- Was she watching too many pornos? http://articles.cnn.com/2011-04-18/justice/north.caroli...

Yes -- and rather I think it was probably the males who were watching "too many pornos" --

but evidently you don't want to acknowledge that it was they who sought her services -- !

Evidently, this "house" was in the process of being shut down because of the many problems

that had occurred.

3. Dines was discredited by the mere fact that she defended the indefensible. She unquestioningly accepted the word of the false accuser, with obvious mental health issues and accussed the Duke Lacrosse Team of outright "maleness".

No one is "discredited" by defending the accuser -- except in the tremendous campaign we saw by very

wealthy parents to attack the accuser and the legal authorities and hospital officials who

recognized that she had been sexually assaulted.

4. You insinuate watching sex will lead to violence -- I can only imagine what unholy terror would be unleashed onto the world if people were to actually have lots of sex.


YOU alone are suggesting that --

What I am saying -- and what mental health professionals are saying -- if you read any of the links

or explored any of their observations of addicted patients -- is that repeatedly viewing scenes

of women suffering sexual abuse and violence as "entertainment" can desensitize males -- cause a

callousness to the suffering of other human beings.


5. You finally find the single mental health professional who has made a career condeming pornography by testifying as an expert witness and founding the Lighted Candle Society. As a member of the Latter Day Saints, how much does his faith color his science? Granted, that can be construed as an ad hominem attack. However, when you couple that with the fact that none of his research papers withstood the scrutiny of peer review because of their heavy use of anecdotal tales (such as your assertion that Linda Lovelace is demonstrative of the entire porn industry rather than one bad marriage).

I didn't "finally find anything" -- I still have not found the article with the reference to the

mental health group mentioned by Dines. If I find it, I will let you know.

And, check the internet on "addiction to pornography" -- and you'll find many health professionals

are involved in studying this addiction. And that many males are seeking help for it.

Linda Lovelace, as I'm sure you know, is but one figure who survived the porn industry to tell

her tale - but there are many others.

In fact, today's estimate is that women involved in this body punishing pornography are lasting

only about 3 months before the physical abuse forces them out.

6. Violent crimes are down, thus discounting the causality argument that you cling to. Yet, you are aware of secret crimes that show that violent crimes are, in fact, up.

I'm aware of no "secret crimes" -- I am aware that with the rise of the RW we have an intensified

global trafficking in sexual slavery -- with the routes also coming through the United States.

And much of this based on kidnapping of females and young male youth.

We also know that rape is highly underreported in the US --

That rapists in prison point to their use of pornography as a serious problem --

And that we have a high degree of rape of female soldiers in our military -- also underreported.

And continuing reports of females being given "date rape drugs" and suffering instances of

gang rapes.


In short, in your world view: men are bad.

In short, that's a signal that you're out of debate -- and grasping at straws.

[defendandprotect]

170. Pornography is Addictive

Pornography is Addictive

Numerous research studies, as well as overwhelming anecdotal
evidence, indicate pornography use is addictive.

Counselors and therapists are virtually unanimous in their view that as

pornography use grows, the materials become more and more coarse and in some

cases lead to acting out.

Dr. Victor Cline, an expert on sexual addiction, found that

there is a four-step progression among many who consume pornography.



1.Addiction:

Pornography provides a powerful sexual stimulant or aphrodisiac effect,
followed by sexual release, most often through masturbation.

2.Escalation:

Over time addicts require more explicit and deviant material to meet their
sexual "needs."

3.Desensitization:

What was first perceived as gross, shocking and disturbing, in time
becomes common and acceptable.

4.Acting out

sexually: There is an increasing tendency to act out behaviors viewed in
pornography.

http://www.opposingviews.com/arguments/pornography-is-addictive



Here are some other articles --

Pornography is Addictive - Opposing Views: Issues, Experts ...
Numerous research studies, as well as overwhelming anecdotalevidence, indicate pornography use is addictive. Counselors and therapists are virtuallyunanimous in ...
www.opposingviews.com/arguments/pornography-is-addictive - Cached


and --

The other researchers presenting their findings to the committee were, Dr. Jeffery Satinover, Dr. Mary Anne Layden, Dr. Judith Reisman, and Dr. James B. Weaver III.

Like his colleagues, Dr. Weaver recognized the lack of controlled scientific study in this area, explaining, "Unfortunately, research directly assessing the impact of pornography addiction on families and communities is limited."

However, he offered evidence from the broader area of social science research he and others have compiled. These are some of his comments regarding the results of prolonged exposure to pornography:

Initial reactions of discomfort and disgust dissipate rapidly with repeated exposure and are replaced by unadulterated reactions of enjoyment.

Prolonged use leads to many distorted perceptions, including the belief that promiscuous behavior is healthy, whereas sexual repression constitutes a health risk.

Men create a sexual callousness toward women.

Both women and men who use porn are more likely to trivialize rape and nonviolent forms of sexual abuse of children, as a criminal offense.

It spawns doubts about the value of marriage as an essential social institution and about its future viability. It also diminishes the desire to have children. (The strongest effect of this kind concerns the aspiration of female viewers for female children.)

It fosters sexual dissatisfaction among both men and women.

Dr. Mary Anne Layden, Co-director of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program at the University of Pennsylvania touched on economic losses from pornography.

"70% of the hits on Internet sex sites occur between 9 and 5 on business computers. Research also indicates, and my clinical experience supports, that 40% of sex addicts will lose their spouse, 58% will suffer severe financial losses, and 27% to 40% will lose their job or profession."

If there is any doubt about pornography's involvement with those who commit sex crimes, Dr. Judith Reisman of the California Protective Parents Association reminded the audience of a 1984 Senate Hearing at which John Rabun, now the head of the Department of Justice's Missing and Abducted Children Center, testified. He was involved in researching sex crimes, and said during his testimony, "all, that is 100% of rapists, pedophiles, etc., in their study, possessed adult pornography."

http://www.parentstv.org/PTC/publications/rgcolumns/2005/0301.asp


Again -- If I come across the specific reference to the organization which Gail Dines

mentioned, I will pass it along to you --

[pitohui]

155. i doubt you, saras, were in the porn industry

if you were, you wouldn't waste your time making the kind of arguments you make

porn is dead as an industry, the amateurs who work for nothing killed it, that should tell you all you need to know about how much it "exploited" anyone

yes, i'm bitter, i was PAID for porn, but once 20 million chicks want to put up free websites and work for nothing, well, lincoln freed the slaves and i don't work for nothing, i'll let the 20 million idiots do that

porn doesn't exploit but SCABS and people who voluntarily work for nothing DO exploit

[laconicsax]

22. You fail to see how scores of videos portraying women as ever-ready sex objects up for

anything including ass-to-mouth and love having men ejaculate on their faces might be the tiniest bit destructive to women?

Pardon me while I roll my eyes.

[Kurska]

26. There is ass-to-mouth and facials in gay porn and I don't feel objectified by it.

I am just supremely not getting this concept. People having sex is cool, but if you point a camera at it suddenly they are being objectified?

[laconicsax]

29. It's about the cultural objectification of women.

The vast majority of porn is hetero. Try thinking about it.

[defendandprotect]

40. Let's try the one where ...

in just simply tune in internet porn -- not anything paid for --

you can readily see a woman with a vice attached to her head for

manipulation as she performs oral sex on a male --

That bother you at all --


And See: PORLAND by Gail Dines --


Pornland by Gail Dines - Book ...
Astonishingly, the average age of first viewing porn is now 11.5 years for boys, and with the advent of the Internet, it’s no surprise that young people are consuming ...
www.randomhouse.com/book/205963 - Cached

An excerpt from Pornland: How Porn has Hijacked our Sexuality ...
An excerpt from Pornland: How Porn has Hijacked our Sexuality by Gail Dines
www.scribd.com/doc/31731972/An-excerpt-from-Pornland-How... - Cached
More results from scribd.com »

Review of Gail Dines' Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our ...
Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality It’s a nasty job, but somebody had to show us just how powerful and destructive the porn industry is.
www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/pornland_how_porn_has... - Cached

Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality | IndieBound
Professor Gail Dines has written about and researched the porn industry for over two decades. She attends industry conferences, interviews producers and performers, and ...
www.indiebound.org/book/9780807044520 - Cached

Viva la Feminista: Book Review: Pornland by Gail Dines
This review of Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked our Sexuality by Gail Dines is overdue not so much because my time has been crunched, but because I'm torn about this book.
www.vivalafeminista.com/2010/10/book-review-pornland-by... - Cached

[LanternWaste]

191. I imagine that quite often, we may be objectified by a thing and never realize it

I imagine that quite often, we may be objectified by a thing and never realize it; much as Anna Robinson wrote that she never felt objectified by her status as the Aunt Jemima logo, despite being portrayed as a happy slave inspired by old southern hospitality and hence falling well within the "Mammy" archetype.

Which then allows your statement to have one minor edit whilst maintaining contextual integrity, and voila...

"People selling something is cool, but if you point a camera at it suddenly they are being objectified?"

I would answer-- "depends on the context."

[a simple pattern]

41. How is it your business to decide

what anyone else should do with their genitals or ass or mouth?

Help me understand how that is even a little bit of your business.

[laconicsax]

47. Nice try framing the argument.

Porn isn't about two adults having sex. It's about selling a fantasy where women are objects who exist for sexual gratification.

[Pavlo]

71. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

[a simple pattern]

42. Dupe!

That's never happened to me before, i swear!

[defendandprotect]

38. Was RW propaganda/Christian teachings "destructive to gays/lesbians" ... ???

Do you understand the role that propaganda which teaches hatred and intolerance

plays in creating violence against GLBT?

Do you understand the role that propaganda played in the oppression of AA's in

AmericA? "White Only" drinking founts and waiting rooms -- rest rooms --

restaurants?

Do you understand the role that Hitler's anti-Semitic propaganda played in

their oppression and the final solution? Remember them being described in Nazi

films as "rats running in the gutters" -- ?


You might also be familiar with the "Hammer of Witches" -- a viole and evil

book by the Vatican which did the same thing for females -- spreading hated and

intolernace for them and finally violence against them --


Pornography is propaganda against women -- it degrades them and suggests that they

are unworthy of equal human rights -- and worse yet, that they are worthy of being

abused and mistreated -- especially sexually --


What we need to explore is why men who say they love women so much like to see them

battered and dominated?


And -- I'm sure you're also aware that the rise of the RW has also brought us not

only HUGE new marketing of pornography on the internet -- BILLIONS being made there

every year by such as COMCAST -- but at the same time that we have seen the rise of

sexual slavery around the globe -- including in America.

[MADem]

101. AGAIN with the Nazis. If you don't like the porn, don't watch it.

You really should stop telling others how to live their lives, though.

I'm old, I haven't seen porn in decades, so I've no consumer axe to grind here...I just think you're not making your case at all.

[undeterred]

17. Both.

[Matariki]

181. Good point. This vs a woman being lashed for driving in Saudi Arabia.

That would be a more productive protest in terms of helping women.

[SpartanDem]

7. Or they could just not watch porn

instead of trying to shove their morals down everyone else's throat.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlbertCat]

9. Adults have sex.

Some are exhibitionists

some are voyeurs.

Get over it.

[kestrel91316]

14. [phone]

[provis99]

15. so much for women having control over their sexuality.

these types of "feminists" remind me of anti-abortion activists: same type of uptight Victorian prudery and suppression of women.

[SpartanDem]

18. That's the funny thing about these type of feminist

they are for the empowerment of women along as it fits their vision. Anyone woman who doesn't want to go college and climb the corporate ladder must have been brainwashed by society. Because no rational woman would any be stay at home mother or work in the porn industry. God forbid a women is completely free to make choice about her life.

[laconicsax]

20. That's quite the pile of straw you're playing with.

Too bad it was manufactured by anti-feminist misogynists.

It has nothing to do with women "fitting their vision" and everything to do with women subjugating themselves to the detriment of other women.

[SpartanDem]

28. Who are you to determine what is subjugation

for someone else? Women are either free to make choices about their body or they are not. You prove my point just because, these women violate your moral ideals they are somehow hurting other women. Moreover porn is created for all sexual orientations who the hell is subjugated in porn featuring transsexuals?

[laconicsax]

31. It isn't about me, stop trying to frame it as such.

It's about the perpetuation of negative stereotypes and degrading imagery that hurts women. It's about having what men and women grow up seeing as a 'normal' sexual relationship being far from normal, with the perpetuation of the "all women are up for everything/all women are secretly whores" stereotype. Porn doesn't show consensual sexual relationships as they exist in reality, but a fantasy world where men are always satisfied by all women, who exist as sex objects, not people.

I like how the three people I'm arguing with on this thread are all men who insist that porn doesn't objectify or degrade women. I take it you didn't watch the video I provided. The presenter makes the same point as me, and does it much better.

[SpartanDem]

35. All porn is about fantasy

do you think non straight porn depicts relations as they are in real life? No, they do do not and as bisexual male I should know. Please stop trying shove your morals down everyones throat.

[laconicsax]

36. Yeah, pointing out how porn degrades women is shoving morals down your throat.

[Scout]

139. funny how these male porn consumers are so outraged about

something being "shoved down their throat"

:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

45. No it's not -- it's about offering the viewer a particular pre-designed fantasy --

too often based on violence, abuse and domination of females --

Now why would violence, abuse and domination of females so interest so many

males who claim to love women?

[defendandprotect]

85. We all recognize degradation and subjugation when we see it -- though the profits involved

certainly lead the industry to unbelievable denials of reality -- !!

Let's try this --

Men are free to make choices about their body or not --

If they're working in sweat shops -- or for minimum wage, that's their problem --

If they're unemployed, that's also their problem --

If they are in the military and being asked to torture people -- or their family

is living on food stamps -- that's also their problem.

It's their CHOICE -- :rofl:

[defendandprotect]

44. And YOUR vision of empowerment of women is that they submit to degradation?

they are for the empowerment of women along as it fits their vision.

and the rest of your post sounds like something out of a Rush Limbaugh show --

Anyone woman who doesn't want to go college and climb the corporate ladder must have been brainwashed by society. Because no rational woman would any be stay at home mother or work in the porn industry. God forbid a women is completely free to make choice about her life.

Right -- true "freedom" is being able to work in the porn industry!




:ROFL:

[Kurska]

68. True freedom is being able to work wherever you want, including the porn industry. n/t

[defendandprotect]

76. Freedom is the right to be abused ... so that someone can "get off" on it ???

Slavery is the right to work for nothing --

War is peace --


ROFL

[laconicsax]

19. The porn industry isn't about sex it's about product.

That product isn't sex, it's the objectification of women.

Watch this lecture; you might learn something.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5003155114018800220#

[SoapBox]

25. What about GAY porn?

...so where does the woman thing fit in with two (or more) men?

Just say'n.

[laconicsax]

30. Is all porn male-male? Is the majority of it male-male?

Did the porn industry get its start with gay porn? Did you know that lesbian porn is marketed to men?

Like it or not, the majority of porn is hetero, and is degrading to women. Do you think that having someone ejaculate on your face is "empowering"? Is it empowering for women to get face-fucked and have tears mixed with mascara streaming down the face? Is it empowering for women for the majority of sex imagery in society (especially porn) to depict women as mere fuck-toys up for anything and always happy to get a load of cum on their face?

[Occulus]

54. I notice you keep avoiding that question

Edited to clarify: you and others.

Forget the proportion, laconicsax. What about gay porn?

Does it or does it not objectify gay men in the same way? Yes or no.

[laconicsax]

58. Having never seen it, I can't say. n/t

[Kurska]

Then maybe it would be wise not to bash it n/t

[Kurska]

65. Woah triple post sorry.

[Kurska]

63. Then maybe it would be wise not to bash it n/t

[Kurska]

64. Then maybe it would be wise not to bash it n/t

[Dark]

60. Or how about the ones with a dominatrix?

Where the woman subjugates the man? Those videos are really popular too.

[defendandprotect]

77. .... "popular" .... but in a healthy way -- ROFL -- !!

[PassingFair]

183. Thank you for that!

Excellent lecture!

[defendandprotect]

43. So in order to have "control over your sexuality" you have to submit to degcradation?

[laconicsax]

21. Rec'd to zero. n/t

[Endangered Specie]

24. Dress like butchered meat to protest naked people. Go naked to protest butchered meat

Funny how that works out.

[laconicsax]

33. It's almost like there's a recognizable cultural connection between women's bodies and meat.

:think:

[Kolesar]

49. That's deep!

Great post :thumbsup:

[Stargleamer]

32. With porn, male dominance and capitalism collude. . .

and women and girls get hurt on both ends, from the consumer, from the pimp/producer.

[laconicsax]

34. +1

Too bad not many 'progressives' are willing to understand.

[defendandprotect]

46. True -- Selling propaganda of women as whores = Comcast $1 BILLION porn profit every year--!!

[Dr Hobbitstein]

51. I wouldn't say porn says women are whores...

Or any sort of thing. To put it best: Porn is video of people having sex. If I want to watch (and I do), I will. I have quite a few female
friends (including my fiance) who enjoy watching porn. I have a friend who's a phone sex operator (and a former dominatrix). She's
an incredibly sexual person (also a trained theater actor) who decided that the sex industry is what she wants to do. She wasn't forced
into it, she's just a sexual person.

You're whole porn = violence meme is bullshit posturing. Walk into the average porn shop. You'll see a COUPLE BDSM/Extreme films (which are still filmed
by voluntary actors who happen to be into that whole thing), but the vast majority is regular old sex flicks (gay or straight). As far as the women acting in porn,
they do this WILLINGLY because THEY WANT TO. No one is forcing them. They know they can make $$$ on men's desires. Good for them!

Your moral compass is not mine (nor anyone else's). It's funny that the women acting in porn don't feel that they're being objectified, isn't it?

[BuddhaGirl]

62. +1000!

Perfect response...a "progressive" response :thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

93. Abuse of women is "progressive" ... ????

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5004300&mesg_id=5005306

[BuddhaGirl]

109. "Porn is the portrayal of females as prostitutes"

Really??

That is YOUR OPINION.

Porn is also sex-positive. And yes, it is "progressive" to see that.

You obviously have huge issues with porn...don't assume everyone else should as well. :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

156. Oxford Dictionary -- "Porne" -- from the Greek original for "prostitute" ....

And no it isn't simply my opinion --

Here's Linda Lovelace/Deep Throat on porn and what really goes on --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5004300&mesg_id=5007205

[BuddhaGirl]

180. Linda Lovelace? Seriously?

That's a WHOLE DIFFERENT era. The focus is on "today."

You really don't know what you're talking about, you're simply hitting people over the head with your "opinions." You're not convincing anyone or changing minds.

Don't like porn? Don't watch it, dear. :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

207. FORCED at GUNPOINT during "Deep Throat" -- yes, seriously .... !!!

And, yes, the articles by Gail Dines/PORLAND are point out how much more violent

today's internet porn is -- and how much more destructive of the bodies of the

females appearing in today's internet porn -- many of them suffering body damage

after working in the industry for only months.


And whatever would give you the idea that I watch porn? ROFL

Though if one checks "images" in any casual Yahoo search simply looking for a pic

of Sesame Street's Gonzo will bring up enough porn to make clear how invasive it

is online.


And if you feel you're being "hit over the head" -- here's a suggestion --

don't read my posts!

[defendandprotect]

90. You are wrong -- the very definition of PORNE is "prostitute"

Oxford Dictionary --

Origin -- mid 19th century: from Greek pornographos 'writing about prostitutes'.

from porne 'prostitute' + graphine 'write'


Origin: < Gr pornographos, writing about prostitutes < pornē, a prostitute, orig. a euphemism, lit., (something) sold, akin to pernēmi, to sell (esp. as a slave, or for a bribe) < IE base *per-, to sell, bring across, come over > fare + Gr graphein, to write: see graphic




AND --

Many males are being found to be addicted to internet porn . . .

End of dispute about whether pornography addiction exists

On August 15, 2011 the American Society of Addiction Medicine issued a public statement defining all addiction (including sexual behavior addiction) in terms of brain changes. "Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry."<3>

In the past, others have argued porn addiction was not comparable to substance addiction and should not be classed as such.<5>

Stephen Andert, coauthor of Web Stalkers: Protect Yourself from Internet Criminals & Psychopaths, states "For many people, such as, pornography is a problem. Like alcohol, gambling or drugs, it can take control of a person's life and drag them kicking and screaming or voluntarily into the gutter. The addictive and progressive (or regressive) nature of pornography is well documented." However, Andert identified no source for the claimed documentation.<6>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction


The balance of your comments are addressed in a second reply --

[MADem]

102. Men can be prostitutes....I'm sure those who coined the Greek term

way back when figured that out from the get-go.

You really need to not watch the stuff if it upsets you so much.

[booley]

108. Many Men are being found to be addicted to online gaming

Clearly we need to protest Blizzard and EA games.

:silly:

[defendandprotect]

132. And who is the victim other than the males? Are they exploiting someone else?

Pornography is exploitation of females --

[booley]

146. You mean those females who got paid?

Sheesh, I wish I could get exploited like that.

Sorry but you're an outrage looking for a crisis.

[defendandprotect]

148. Linda Lovelace/Deep Throat got paid NOTHING -- and was FORCED at gunpoint ....

And she so testified to the US Congress on her appearance in this movie --


Linda Lovelace/Boreman claimed her first husband forced her into pornography at gunpoint. They divorced in 1973.

Their relationship disintegrated into a life of violence, rape, prostitution and pornography, according to her 1980 autobiography, "Ordeal" and her testimony before congressional committees investigating pornography.

Boreman said she was never paid a penny for "Deep Throat" and her husband only was paid $1,250, though the film grossed a reported $600 million.

After leaving the industry, she traveled the lecture circuit on a crusade against pornography, speaking at colleges and with prominent feminists.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/23/entertainment/main506940.shtml



Linda Lovelace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Early life|Career|Charges...|Marchiano...Linda Susan Boreman, better known by her stage name Linda Lovelace, was an American pornographic actress who was famous for her performance of deep throat fellatioin the enormously...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Lovelace - Cached.More results from en.wikipedia.org »


So much for the idle delusions of those who think they know something about the

pornography industry -- !!

[booley]

199. As I have already dealt with this

And if you had bothered to read the very wiki page you cited, you would see the problems in your argument.

Also look up a list of common fallacious arguments.

Affirming the Consequent especially.

[defendandprotect]

209. Iow ... You're out of debate --

And if you had bothered to read the very wiki page you cited, you would see the problems in your argument.

Why not elaborate --

[booley]

226. why?

So you can ignore that too?

You're not debating. You're ranting.

Which means the only times you will even pay attention to what I respond with is when you think it will help your cause.

Everything else you ignore.

For instance the parts of my earlier response where i elaborated on how full of crap you were.

[joeglow3]

203. Holy shit, You are using ONE example from FORTY years ago as proof???

That was WAAAAY before the days of exclusive contracts with Vivid, etc. Look at the pay in industry. If anything, they are taking advantage of the men with the terrible THEY get compared to the female actresses.

[defendandprotect]

210. Wow -- only "one" woman threatened at GUNPOINT ... !!! ROFL

The subject is VIOLENCE against women appearing in pornography --

And if you had read anything of what Gail Dines is making clear, today's internet

porn is more violent than most porn anyone is familiar with -- especially over the

past 10-15 years --


Since obviously you haven't read anything from PORNLAND, I'd point out that Dines

is also relating that women appearing in today's internet porn are suffering such

damage to their bodies that many are forced to leave the industry after a few months.



And, btw, if you're not familiar with it -- DEEP THROAT -- remains an example of

excess and extremes and abuse of females -- as related by Linda Lovelace to Congress.


In 1986, she testified before the Meese Commission that "Virtually every time someone watches that movie, they're watching me being raped." In the Toronto Sun on March 20, 1981 she said that, "It is a crime that movie is still showing; there was a gun to my head the entire time." While the other people present on the set did not support the gun charge, both Traynor and Damiano confirmed in interviews that Traynor was extremely controlling towards Boreman and also hit her on occasion. In the documentary Inside Deep Throat it is claimed that bruises are visible on Boreman's body in the movie.

These allegations were cited in the UK Government's Rapid Evidence Assessment on "The evidence of harm to adults relating to exposure to extreme pornographic material"<11> as part of its plans to criminalize possession of what it terms "extreme pornography".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat_(movie)



And for this exploitation of Linda Lovelace at GUNPOINT the film earned $600 million --

and perhaps more --

[GliderGuider]

219. It is becoming increasingly clear to me

that you appear to have an obsessive interest in the mental image of a naked woman being forced to commit lewd acts at gunpoint.

I can't pass judgement on the state of mind that would make the compulsive revisiting of such imagery a cornerstone of their worldview (or at least this thread), but I could suggest that the issue may go deeper than simple feminist politics and rational debate.

[defendandprotect]

220. And it's clear you have no concerns about violence against women ... you're on ignore -- bye !!

[GliderGuider]

221. OK, then.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

92. Porn is the portrayal of females as prostitutes --

and I doubt you could ever find anyone on the planet who would deny that prostitutes

have historcally been sexually abused and mistreated?

Or that degradation is historically part of the profession?


That women submit to this "WILLINGLY" at the current time is belied by our history and the

historical oppression of females --


Today's internet porn is not simply video of people having sex -- it is violent portrayal of

human sexuality with females as the victims.


And, if you're unaware about what's going on over the internet with today's pornography --

or that it's a widespread industry earning $10 BILLION a year --

then you can google Gail Dines/PORLAND and get some idea of what she and others have been

monitoring on the internet.

And why mental health professionals are now paying attention to male addiction to pornography!


The very idea that people are involved with jobs that mainly offer degradation and do it

voluntarily is the same as suggesting that slaves voluntarily picked cotton -- and liked

riding at the back of the bus. But garbage like that was spewed during those times?


And, of course, you do not know the circumstances of every female involved with porn --

and you might begin with the stories of those who has escaped from such work which they

were FORCED to do!

I would also suggest that we should pay strict attention to what you are suggesting re

"men's desires" because pornogrpahy regularly offers themes of rape, abuse and assult

of females --

Is that really what they need to see in order to get off?



Your moral compass is not mine (nor anyone else's). It's funny that the women acting in porn don't feel that they're being objectified, isn't it?



You cannot speak for anyone but yourself -- that you seem to think that you can speak for everyone -

but beyond that you've evidently also missed that many women who have escaped the pornography

industry and have told their stories -- which are quite different from your guess as to what life in

the porn industry is like!

[Crowman1979]

52. What about porn made by women? Or Lesbian porn made by Dyke Lesbians?

I sure as hell bet these so-called anti-porn feminists masturbate to that behind closed doors, f***in hypocrites! They avoid mentioning that because their argument would go up in smoke.

They're just like those self-righteous evangelicals, only with different sex organs. Sure their is a very small percentage of porn companies that treat their performers like shit. But the same can be said for any industry, entertainment or otherwise.

[defendandprotect]

79. ANY pornography which degrades women or shows violence against them is wrong --

What does it matter who makes it?

What does matter is why anyone who "loves" women wants to get off on watching

them being abused and degraded?

[Matariki]

182. hrumph. I'm a woman who likes s/m videos.

And I know people who make delightful s/m 'real people' porn and no one is being exploited.

One person's 'degradation' is another person's kink. It's fantasy play acting. As long as everyone is consenting you really can't say that one gender over the other is being degraded in a real way.

[BuddhaGirl]

200. +1

:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

214. Do you support women in porn suffering sexual abuse and violence -- ?

Would be good to be clear about what you are supporting ---

In 1986, she testified before the Meese Commission that "Virtually every time someone watches that movie, they're watching me being raped." In the Toronto Sun on March 20, 1981 she said that, "It is a crime that movie is still showing; there was a gun to my head the entire time." While the other people present on the set did not support the gun charge, both Traynor and Damiano confirmed in interviews that Traynor was extremely controlling towards Boreman and also hit her on occasion. In the documentary Inside Deep Throat it is claimed that bruises are visible on Boreman's body in the movie.

These allegations were cited in the UK Government's Rapid Evidence Assessment on "The evidence of harm to adults relating to exposure to extreme pornographic material"<11> as part of its plans to criminalize possession of what it terms "extreme pornography".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat_(movie)


Perhaps I'm wrong but it doesn't seem that you've read anything of what Gail Dines is saying

in her book PORNLAND or in her articles -- or lectures -- they're all available on the

internet --

but basically this is about violence against women in porn --

and the reality that today's internet porn is quite different from what people have generally

seen of porn -- especially in the last 10-15 years -- and that it is being accessed by males

as young as 11 years of age -- densensitizing young males to this sexual abuse of females.

This eventually effects all of society -- but most especially the dignity and humanity of females.


Many of the women appearing in today's internet porn are finding the sexual abuse so damaging

to their bodies that they are only lasting a few months in the industry.


There are also many articles on the internet relating the shock of wives who find their husband's

addicted to internet porn -- to the point of doing harm to their lives. Health professionals are

also treating more male patients suffering this addiction.

[joeglow3]

55. Wow. I thought only Republicans liked to tell people what to do behind closed doors.

nt

[defendandprotect]

86. This is an industry which is doing harm to women -- for profit -- $10 BILLION a year -- !!!

This doesn't simply involve males who don't have sufficient imagination

to create an intellectual fantasy to get off on and who are dependent upon

an industry to pre-design one for them -- often based on rape/abuse/domination --


This is about the effect this pornography has on women in our society --

and their right to equality --

And, not to be subjected to an industry-wide propaganda against them similar to

the destruction the "Hammer of Witches" caused --


We should also be questioning why males who allegedly love women somehow seem to

need an industry to abuse and degrade women for them so they can get off on it!

[pitohui]

160. there's no $10 billion a year to be made in porn

if you think there is, make a porn movie or website and show us how

even penthouse went broke, the entire industry is broke on its ass, there is no money to be made here because too many people like to have sex on camera and will do it for nothing

your lies about all the money to be made in porn are just that, lies, and you must know it

[joeglow3]

202. I'll ask my wife, as she enjoys it just as much.

I think you would be shocked at the number of women who enjoy it. However, I bet you will tell me they were duped into liking it because of the porn culture...

[defendandprotect]

211. You are reporting to us that your wife likes to be abused . . . ?

You're on ignore --

[joeglow3]

216. How sad your life must be

You have felt the need to announce to multiple people on this thread that you are putting them on ignore because you do not want to have an intelligent conversation. YOU are what is wrong with politics. You have demonstrated a close-mindedness and unwillingness to have an honest discussion that rivals the idiots on the right.

I just hope that you some day find the happiness you clearly are missing.

[Demonaut]

56. those chicks are HOT!

seriously, go after illegal underage prostitution..

[Bladian]

59. Hot lesbians always makes me sad as a man.

[Trillo]

57. Do the same females that consider all pornography depictions of violence

also consider consensual sex with insemination, pregnancy, and childbirth to be actual violence?

[defendandprotect]

87. Only when the pornography shows sexual assault and abuse of women ... and violence -- !!!

Your question suggests confusion in your mind on the subject --

However, females are addressing the ACTUAL sexual assaults and degradation of

females in pornography videos --


WHY THEN ... would you suggest this has anything to do with consentual sex or pregnancy???

[Trillo]

104. That's the overall message I get from the pics of the protester's signs,

that all pornography debases women, that theirs is a protest against all forms of it; even while the article presents some ideas more along the lines you just wrote. I've also seen prior discussions of this on DU where the opinion of some posters was that all pornography is offensive.

I would presume that the men and women porn actors depicted in most any of the films are willing participants, and I would further presume they get paid. Thus, it seems there's an element of willing acceptance or consensuality. Perhaps that is not true in every example?

The level of censorship that occurs in, say, family-rated movies leads one to believe that either is there is no sex in the human experience, or it is limited to kissing and hugging. Clearly, there is an element of our culture that believes that all pornography is in need of censorship.

[defendandprotect]

121. Pornography reduces females to prostitutes --

What if there were a $10 BILLION industry reducing all males to prostitutes?

How about Ms Magazine putting on its cover a picture of a male being put thru a

meat-grinder?

Would you react? Do you think males collectively would react?

Since pornography portrays females as "prostitutes" of course it is offensive -- !!


And quite different from erotica --


I think any presumption about consent would be naive -- and we have many reports from

women who have left the industry -- some testifying to Congress as the star/victim of

Deep Throat did -- about being FORCED --

Again, this is a male-dominated industry -- and hugely profitable --


The level of censorship that occurs in, say, family-rated movies leads one to believe that either is there is no sex in the human experience, or it is limited to kissing and hugging. Clearly, there is an element of our culture that believes that all pornography is in need of censorship.

If you reflect upon what you are saying ... you have reduced love making to a keyhole experience!

And your expectations are based on that concept !!!

That's what males have been taught -- and maleness is completely a social construct -- !!

Keep in mind, again, erotica is something completely different from pornography --

[Trillo]

218. Advertising objectifies women and men,

and clothes are used. The purpose of such advertising is to suggest sexuality while peddling a good or service. Lots of smiling men and women, all made up "pretty", then you receive the product, and you either note that sexual desire isn't realized, or you are unconscious of the sexual attraction in the advertisement. Consider the fashion industry.

Regarding erotica and pornography, the two words have the exact same definition according to Wordnet 3.0: "noun
creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire".

By that definition, if a pornographic sexual scene is placed in the larger context of a romantic subplot, it ceases to be "pornography", as it now has "artistic value". But that is not erotica, as it has the same definition as pornography! That in turn leads to the question of why doesn't pornography itself intrinsically have artistic value? There are certainly plenty of nude busts and statutes around to suggest the human body itself is art. Consider a real human body striking the same pose as a famous statue, is it art?

Perhaps art is in the eyes of the beholder, and if some say it is art, then it is art to them, but not necessarily to you, or perhaps to some or many of the rest of us. Some is the operative word.

"Keyhole" censorship (of human sexuality) is precisely what happens in family-rated movies. When they have a romatic subplot, it seems they create an inflated interest in kissing and hugging to suggest something more, but this latter is to some degree relative to the viewer, as to some viewers it may be nothing more than what is shown, kissing and hugging. People sure like to kiss and hug a lot!

Consider dancing, which generally doesn't involve kissing. Similar observations may be made. The sexual dance as art is well established in tradition, and ...

Going back to an earlier point, in one case, we have advertising images suggesting sexuality in order to sell a product or a service, to catch the eye, etc., in other words, for a purpose other than "stimulating sexual desire", or basically, suggesting one thing while delivering another; in the other case, there's erotica or porn that is upfront about its purpose, to "stimulate sexual desire". One can only ponder the possible relationship to a pharmaceutical product such as sildenafil.

Pursuit of happiness is what exactly? How do you define happiness, and do you need others minds to comply to how your mind sees and interpret happiness? Is there some room here to consider that others have some independent rights to consider something as art that you do not?

[defendandprotect]

228. You make no mention of the most central part of the discussion ---

Advertising objectifies women and men,
and clothes are used. The purpose of such advertising is to suggest sexuality while peddling a good or service. Lots of smiling men and women, all made up "pretty", then you receive the product, and you either note that sexual desire isn't realized, or you are unconscious of the sexual attraction in the advertisement. Consider the fashion industry.

Pornography isn't advertising. However, yes, sexuality is used in selling clothing and cars --

perfumes and even food. But consider that in advertising regularly the female body is made

smaller by airbrushing waistlines, tho legs are often made longer -- and often the female models are

posed to look childlike -- and often appear anorexic! And this has been going on for 40 years or

more. Amd if yo're familiar with Betty Friedan's "The feminist Majority" you know it has been going

on and accelerating since the end of WWII.

Pornography is more like the Bible -- which is heavy propaganda against women and, as with the

porn business, there is no equivalent of similar writings by females which villifies and demonizes

males. Imagime if there were such an anti-male porn industry -- or Bible industry -- certainly

males would not be standing by calmly. They well and deeply understand being put down and they

don't tolerate it -- singly or when together. Males understand the consequences of being shown

as weak or inferior -- in fact, they weigh everything they say and everything they do as to

whether it "will make me look weak" -- !!

And -- advertising's use of sex and exploittion of models -- issues of anorexia and bulimia

are somewhat discussed and many are aware.

In pornography, only one sex is negatively impacted -- and given the nature of porn -- especially

violent porn -- it's somewhat sidelined in society. Users are anonymous and aren't likely to

introduce the subject at PTA meetings or in family discussions -- whereas advertising very likely

would be a subject discussed by all for the harm it does to models and the self-esteem of females.



And ...

Regarding erotica and pornography, the two words have the exact same definition according to Wordnet 3.0: "noun
creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire".

If you check the dictionary you will find that "porne" comes from the original Greek which means

prostitute -- and I would disagree that erotica always had "no literary or artistic value other

than to stimulate desire." It can exist with or without such values.


By that definition, if a pornographic sexual scene is placed in the larger context of a romantic subplot, it ceases to be "pornography", as it now has "artistic value". But that is not erotica, as it has the same definition as pornography! That in turn leads to the question of why doesn't pornography itself intrinsically have artistic value? There are certainly plenty of nude busts and statutes around to suggest the human body itself is art. Consider a real human body striking the same pose as a famous statue, is it art?

And looks to me like you are grasping at straws here -- but not succeeding in making any point.

Nude busts and statues are NOT pornograpahy -- was DAVID a prostitute or portrayed as one?

And I think you have to begin with the conscept of prostitution as being degrading in order to

understand the difference -- and the discussion -- and Gail Dines' research.


BUT -- coming back to erotica -- here's a literary example from the writings of bell hooks which

I recall -- she looks down at her her bust and notes that her silk blouse has a large pink moist

circle over her nipple and she is then remembering her lunch time meeting with a lover --

Or -- you might reflect on the reality as I think Gloria Steinem put it that we know a great deal

about how males desired Marily Monroe -- or let's say Michelle Philipps today -- but what do we

know about Marilyn Monroe from her own views on love making or her lovers? Or from Michelle

Phillips? We have a very one-sided situation where males have been taught to be driven to a

process which creates offspring -- penetration -- the keyhole concept. And, penetration is the

KEY issue in porn -- of any orifice!


"Keyhole" censorship (of human sexuality) is precisely what happens in family-rated movies. When they have a romatic subplot, it seems they create an inflated interest in kissing and hugging to suggest something more, but this latter is to some degree relative to the viewer, as to some viewers it may be nothing more than what is shown, kissing and hugging. People sure like to kiss and hug a lot!

Eh -- no ... "keyhole" sex is penetration and solely penetration -- emphasis on penetration.

How could you miss that? :eyes:

Lovemaking is "romance" -- "kissing, hugging, petting" -- in fact, if you're fmailiar with the

movie "Diner" you may rewatch it and get a little further assist on understanding that from one

of the female characters -- if not also the male. And compare that with the "3-5 minute" event

so many laugh at!


Consider dancing, which generally doesn't involve kissing. Similar observations may be made. The sexual dance as art is well established in tradition, and ...

Agree -- but it's not pornography -- no one is degraded -- are they?


OKAY -- that is all very interesting -- but what you are ignoring or unable to deal with is the

discussion of today's internet porn as something abusive to females, degrading -- and violent.

Which is it -- ?

[Trillo]

232. Refusing to deal with violence?

That's why I wondered about childbirth: bloody, tearing of flesh, pain; often facilitated with episiotomy and spinal anesthesia (with the transfer of sufficient $$$).

Regarding your often mentioned "meat grinder" example, by the way, one I've never seen, the condition in the definition of "stimulate sexual desire" doesn't seem to be met. Generally, sexual desire seems more about a life affirming internal process (desire), one that is distinctly separate from any coexisting external process (act). That is, curiously, also the power of image which can and is used by media, and many other forms of marketing!

I believe the signs the protesters are using are possibly framed poorly. For example, "Love sex, hate pornography". Pornographic films are most often various depictions of sex (the few I've seen), so the point seems reduced to liking reality versus disliking depictions of reality, the latter of which become objects of materialism, or objectified. When understood that way, the similarity to our rather ubiquitous advertising and the routine use of sexual suggestion to mislead for $$$ gain seems rather obvious. It is also reminiscent of idol worship such as graven images, and a parallel known as celebrity.

I find myself wondering about what Jung called the shadow or unconscious mind. I wonder, rhetorically, "What is this mirror, this media, telling us?"

As a lot of folks have used the term pornography in this discussion, it seems that it can also be subject to the same vagaries as the term terrorism, and simply be used interchangeably as a term of derision. Porn. That's all you need to know! It's bad bad bad!

If the term pornography is more accurately interpreted as the writing of prostitutes, I should wonder, "What is so wrong with prostitutes writing that they should be denied their history?"

[defendandprotect]

233. Refusing to deal with the violence and abuse of females in pornography ....

Sadly humorous -- but you're on your way to being disingenuous --

and on ignore --

Where is the equivalent of the Bible --

Of the "Hammer of Witches" -- of the witch burnings -- ?

Where is the equivalent of a system of organized propaganda against males as

we see in this industry of pornogrpahy vs females?


You're citing the "violent movies" of the 1980's through the present?

Yes, they are often male-generated violence -- rehashing of war movies and new war

movies -- starring males and produced by males, directed by males.

Any male movie these days requires lots of violence and car chases.


But there is an internet filled with people calling attention to the violence portrayed

against females on TV -- especially on Lifetime/Women's TV! And movies demonizing females

as crazed Nannies, etal. Huge trend right now.


If you'd like to see that HUSLER cover -- I'm sure the internet will provide it for you --

hit "images" before your search --

HUSTLER, of course, is a magazine of pornography -- and in that cover the concensus seems

to be that it was unconsciously displaying its hatred for women.

I find myself wondering about what Jung called the shadow or unconscious mind. I wonder, rhetorically, "What is this mirror, this media, telling us?"

or consider this one ...

"Patriarchy and violence are mirror images of one another" --



True -- we all expect sexual relationships/desire to be "life-affirming" -- that is why

it is all the more concerning that internet pornography is so often offering sexual abuse

and assault of women as "sex."

The protesters signs address the issue that objections to pornography are based on

Puritanical views about human sexuality --

Nor is it about not liking "reality" -- it's about abuse of females in porn -- violence

vs women in porn.


Unfortunately, internet pornography is available for everyone to see --

It speaks for itself --

Terrorism is something largely hidden -- and too often manipulated by our MIC --

in false flag events for the empire!


If the term pornography is more accurately interpreted as the writing of prostitutes, I should wonder, "What is so wrong with prostitutes writing that they should be denied their history?"

No -- it's not writings BY prostitutes -- !!

It's writings ABOUT prostitutes -- or pictures of prostitutes --


And do you want to expand on why this quote was included in your post?

That's why I wondered about childbirth: bloody, tearing of flesh, pain; often facilitated with episiotomy and spinal anesthesia (with the transfer of sufficient $$$).


There is no male who comes into this world except thru the body of a female --

But then males have succeded in creating Frankenstein's -- !!


I recommend to you that it might advance/mature your thinking a bit to actually read something

of what Gail Dines is saying about internet porn -- or is that too much of a threat to you?


Later --

[joe1991]

61. We men should boycott Romance Novels

We average smoes can't live up to a woman's objective fantasy of the rich, tanned, thick-haired, buff Prince on a white horse that will swoop in and save a woman from all her troubles, hang on her every word, and put up with her indecisiveness over which hunky man she will finally give her heart to.

Face it, men are born with lust for women. There's nothing in a magazine or video that we guys didn't already have going on in our imagination. Ladies, you need us to to sexually desire you, otherwise we would've have much to do with you. ;)

Obviously if there's abusive situations or illegality in the production of adult material it should be addressed.

[Odin2005]

70. If Romance novels were written for us guys they would be declared porn, ROFL.

[defendandprotect]

78. Average porn on internet is based on abusive situations, themes of violence and domination....

while alleged we hear how men "love" women they seem to get off on scenes of

women being abused --

Why is that?

[joe1991]

138. Maybe that's just what you're searching for?

Hmm. You remind me of a conservative preacher way too focused on curing gays...

Anyway, there's lots of different stuff out there.
Some like it mild, other prefer wild. I think you're missing the point that for most adults, it's "play".

Just like men enjoy watching football, James Bond, and war movies, it's fun imagining hooking up with a cheerleader, coworker, or nurse.

While of course there's stuff I think is gross, as long it's among consenting adults, myself and the government don't need to get involved.

[defendandprotect]

215. As Gail Dines/PORNLAND has made clear ... this is NOT "for pay" porn ....

it's readily available on the internet -- and 11 year old males are accessing it --

Try reading something about the issue --

Attacking the messengers really isn't debate --


Unfortunate to observe that your first reaction isn't to this abuse and violence against

the women in porn -- however this is about consciousness-raising, not censorship.

And if you truly think these women are engaged in "play" you're hugely naive!


As Dines is pointing out, internet porn is quite different from anything previously offered --

especially over the last 10-15 years --

it is addictive and is seriously having damaging effects on many males --

It also desensitizes males to abusive treatment of women in these films -- attitudes which

are carried over to their daily lives and their own relationships.



And just as a reminder -- here's Linda Lovelace on her experiences in "Deep Throat" --

In 1986, she testified before the Meese Commission that "Virtually every time someone watches that movie, they're watching me being raped." In the Toronto Sun on March 20, 1981 she said that, "It is a crime that movie is still showing; there was a gun to my head the entire time." While the other people present on the set did not support the gun charge, both Traynor and Damiano confirmed in interviews that Traynor was extremely controlling towards Boreman and also hit her on occasion. In the documentary Inside Deep Throat it is claimed that bruises are visible on Boreman's body in the movie.

These allegations were cited in the UK Government's Rapid Evidence Assessment on "The evidence of harm to adults relating to exposure to extreme pornographic material"<11> as part of its plans to criminalize possession of what it terms "extreme pornography".

And, again, what's being shown on the internet today is even more abusive and more violent --

[defendandprotect]

88. Interesting that you would pick up that subject ---

because we know that males above all understand the power of the "put down" --

and show very little tolerance for it -- individually or when a few are together.

ESPECIALLY WHEN THE 'PUT DOWN' IS DELIVERED BY A FEMALE -- !!


Average pornograhy on the internet is filled with abuse of women -- how could you

miss knowing that? Men who "love" women allegedly need to see them abused and

degraded by this industry in order to get off on it!

hmmm............

[fedsron2us]

72. Porn is one of the few industries where female workers get paid more than men.

Is this feminisms biggest achievement in the last 25 years ?

[AngkorWot]

73. What a bunch of dicks.

[defendandprotect]

94. When we have an internet industry devoted to showing sexual assault and

degradation of women -- I think we need to pay attention to it --

and find out why so many males are addicted to watching the sexual abuse of

females on the internet --

and need to see such abuse to get off --

hmmmmmmmm....

[fedsron2us]

95. It is an internet industry devoted to making money.

It themes its films on whatever sells. It has zero interest in sexual politics.

This does not mean that the industry is not exploitative just that it operates in the same way as most other capitalist enterprises with the cash staying at the top. In that respect porn workers be they male or female are largely in the same economic boat as the rest of the population.

[defendandprotect]

96. And you feel you can speak for the industry ... ?

It's not only pandering to males who have fantasies of abusing women, it is

confirming that interest and widening the market -- and along the way it's also

pushing interest in more childlike females -- many of them appearing much

younger than their actual ages --


All capitalism is based on exploitation -- but only the oppressed can be exploited.

The group -- whether female, AA, or homosexual -- whatever -- must first be demonized,

and dehumanized -- and degraded --

Therefore, it is an obvious part of capitalism's work to oppress to exploit --


Pornography is as much propaganda directed at dehumanizing and degrading females as

the South's propaganda was directed at demhumanizing and degrading Africans enslaved

there -- or "Christianity's" propaganda directed at dehumanizing and degrading

homosexuals as an "abomination" --

Most of all, like other propaganda, it shows females to be worthy of being treated

violently -- especially re sexual assault --

[AngkorWot]

105. And some people are addicted to other forms of masturbation on the internet.

[chrisa]

147. I don't understand how it's sexual assault when both parties are willing.

[MADem]

103. BEST post on this entire thread!! +++10000!!!! nt

[defendandprotect]

112. Interesting that you show no concern for abuse of females in internet porn?

Why might that be?

[MADem]

117. I think you have some issues. You are looking for fights with people.

You have an obsession about this matter that borders on the perverse.

You really should do what I do when it comes to porn--just don't watch it.

That way, you'll feel better. You won't have to get your tonsils in a twist.

You are behaving like a noxious net nanny towards everyone contributing to this thread, moralizing, Carrie Nation-ing, and being, to be blunt, very rude and obnoxious to people who happen to like something that you don't like.

It's a childish attitude you're exhibiting. All you're doing is making yourself look foolish. You are not changing hearts or minds, you're simply painting a large target on your behind with a "KICK ME" exhortation scrawled across it.

If adults of ANY gender (and why you're more upset about women than men being abused or manipulated , I have no idea--but it is a blatantly sexist attitude, all things being equal--as they SHOULD be) take money in exchange for performing a service, even a distasteful one, that's their fucking business--not yours. You aren't the Porn Industry Babysitter. No one appointed you. Your services were never required.

Get over yourself, get off your high horse, and, like I said-- if you don't like it, don't watch it.

See? Simple.

[defendandprotect]

122. Think you've answered the question -- sadly --

and you're on ignore -- bye

[MADem]

133. You won't be able to read this if you're true to your word.

But I have an opinion about people who put others on ignore solely because they simply cannot BEAR to confront ideas with which they do not agree.

Your conduct doesn't say anything positive about your ability to debate issues, to muster a forceful rebuttal, or to engage in substantive discourse about a subject.

What's sad is your "my way or the highway" approach to discussion.

But hey, whatever, do take your ball and go home--show everyone here just what you're made of!

[defendandprotect]

82. viewing pornography can lead to greater acceptance of rape myths and attitudes supporting violence

against women --

An effort to make sexual violence vs women the norm !!



"It's easy to say 'porn degrades women' but the women in the industry know what they're doing," she said.

What is this saying except that they are portraying women in pornography as whores and that

the women in the industry know and accept being the objects of violence and abuse by males

in the videos?


In recent years the multi-billion dollar industry has become a focus for the feminist movement as fears grow over the impact its pervasive influence is having on society at large. Activists claim that viewing pornography can lead to greater acceptance of rape myths and attitudes supporting violence against women.

and here's Gail Dines who recently wrote PORNLAND ---

Gail Dines, academic and author of Pornland: How Porn has Hijacked our Sexuality, said it was "central" to the fight for equality. "You cannot have a massive industry built on the sexual torture and dehumanisation and debasement of women. If you want any gender equality in a society you cannot have this industry steam-rollering into men's psyches, sexuality and identity," she said, adding that there was an "immeasurable" difference between the X-rated industry of decades ago and the kind of "body-punishing, hardcore" material available now, which she says has become the "major seller" in the industry today.


"This porn summit represents pimps in suits … meeting to plot how to push the boundaries of porn even further to increase their profits," said Anna van Heeswijk, campaigns co-ordinator of the activist group Object which organised the protest along with UK Feminista and other groups. "It is their aim to make the sexual violence of porn appear normal and acceptable. It is our aim to stop them. Our message is clear: 'Women are human, stop treating us like objects.'"

[heliarc]

91. I'm going to be as careful as I can with this reply...

Porn seems much more multifaceted than it is presented in any of the discussion on the various threads here.

Saying that Gay Porn isn't degrading to women is a choice bit of reduction because Misogyny (and Misanthropy) is an infamous problem among Gay and Lesbian populations without their respective body of porn even entering the discussion... to me it almost stands to reason that by design, Gay porn is degrading to women (because they are excluded as detestable), and Lesbian porn degrading to men (because they are excluded as detestable as well). This might seem crazy to Gay and Lesbian people reading this, but to a Bisexual it makes perfect sense.

But it is true that the audience for both of these forms is NOT the opposite sex, and that is precisely the problem. Camp, is of ultimate concern to the Porn viewing public. One might assume that the audience for heterosexual porn is both sexes but overwhelmingly, the audience for heterosexual porn, is heterosexual men.

But it stands to reason that "degradation" is very often a psychological and physical affect of sex that people seek out for their own sensory, and psychological reasons. People here might be so unwilling to accept this that they discriminate on the people who practice such "degrading" sex, but the fact still remains that there are women (and men) who "enjoy" being degraded or for various reasons seek it out. It also is a very real and important psychological fact that objectification is aphrodisiac and that sex in detachment (various forms) is ideologically extended by thought... (deSade's mirrors, or the multiplication of taboos, transgressions).

I can just imagine all of the holier than thou on DU responding to this with disgust, but believe me it was my surprise the first time I dated a woman who WANTED me to hit her, or call her names or the like. I wasn't willing to... my own choice... , but the way that I might choose to refuse her requests might be more judgmental and degrading to her then complying.

Some may call this "pathology" or whatever other clinical thing they are most likely unqualified to call it, but the truth of the matter is that it may in fact be more degrading to the person who requests degrading treatment to impose some sort of moralizing attitude without fully understanding their desires or their sexual past. I have come to find that it has sometimes been a female partner of mine's fantasy to be mistreated as a way of owning, or taking control of the experiences they've had, and listening to her and exploring those dark places with her can sometimes be an avenue to empowerment, and real care... and love even... when there is mutual respect in parallel to playful exploration.

But none of that really speaks to porn as the issue, because it is true that porn is generally stupid. The fakery, the robotic poses, and mechanical shots that are formulaic. Bad Directing, horrible acting, lame scenarios. Those alone are degrading to humanity overall... But it's more impossible to understand the motivations of an actress or actor who participate. How much money has changed hands and to whom. What the distribution schemes are, and who is enjoying what sum of the profits. Then, even in the fakery of the scene, is there any enjoyment? Does the man or the woman in a scene actually even enjoy it? Would it be more degrading if they did, or didn't? Those questions are so complex as to make your head hurt, and the likely truth of it all is that the journey of a sex worker who chooses to be a sex worker is so brave and when they are able to achieve self-respect it is so strong, as to put most of us and our own robotic sex lives spent in missionary to shame. That is not to say that there haven't been plenty of sad cases of women who weren't able to cope, or survive that business, but that is true of mainstream hollywood as well.

Porn, in my opinion is a very cheap form of theater. Theater from some perspectives might be degrading to almost everyone simply for being fake (play)... but I think it shows us ourselves no matter how poorly performed, and that is of value.

[defendandprotect]

113. Coincidental that you confirm a number of experiences with women who want to be mistreated?

believe me it was my surprise the first time I dated a woman who WANTED me to hit her, or call her names or the like.

have come to find that it has sometimes been a female partner of mine's fantasy to be mistreated


And your major problem with the pornography industry ...

Bad Directing, horrible acting, lame scenarios. Those alone are degrading to humanity overall...

Though you should be credited for this observation --

One might assume that the audience for heterosexual porn is both sexes but overwhelmingly, the audience for heterosexual porn, is heterosexual men.


Re this ...

But it stands to reason that "degradation" is very often a psychological and physical affect of sex that people seek out for their own sensory, and psychological reasons.

Again, this isn't about individuals -- it's about an industry using pornography as propaganda

to dehumanize and degrade females, in general.

However, that anyone chooses to be "abused" physically or emotionally can only point at a minimum

to a lack of self-esteem or a lack of control of their own lives which leads to submission to

other controlling forces -- an issue for professionals to deal with --



Porn, in my opinion is a very cheap form of theater.

Porn industry is not cheap by any means -- $10 BILLION is the latest figure --

COMCAST makes $1 BILLION A YEAR or more from internet porn --

And it certainly takes a toll on the lives of the women involved --


And women everywhere as this industry dehumanizes females -- depicting them as unworthy of

love, symnpathy, respect -- or equality.

You can only EXPLOIT those who are oppressed -- and the porn industry certainly intends

to see that any movements for female equality are reversed.

[pitohui]

161. porn is cheap theater precisely BECAUSE there is no violence, no death, no risk

the legal restrictions on porn are ridiculous and they are the reason that porn is either camp or crap

the person screaming "abuse of women" in porn hasn't seen any legal porn for 30 years, anything that is considered violent or abusive or degrading to women is flat-out illegal and it won't be filmed

since to be good film, good art, you have to have danger and risk now porn has become trivialized as an art form...yes, it's all well and good that nobody was abused in the making of this film but a film where no one pushes their danger zones is a BAD BORING film

think of "blue velvet" where everyone shit on david lynch for his abuse/humliation of isabella rosellini, but the truth is that's a great film BECAUSE it pushed her comfort zone, BECAUSE it pushed dennis hopper's comfort zone

porn has not been allowed by law to address violence against women (or anyone else) and thus it cannot push anyone's comfort zone, so it's boring, you fast forward to part you want to beat off to and then you're done

porn is not a cheap form of theater because people fuck, it's a cheap form of theater because the law doesn't admit that we are animals and that violence/emotional distress/etc are part of the story and so porn can only be the one dimension of how the bodies fit together...

porn has to leave out the complexity of our emotions, the violence and disturbances we have in our hearts, THAT'S why porn is cheap

there is no fucking reason we couldn't have good porn other than the LAW, it is not legal to have hard core action where you also have violence...

in another universe a david lynch would be making great porn, in fact, blue velvet watched the right way is more arousing than most porn if you ask me

porn didn't HAVE to be stupid, you don't just take off your clothes and turn into a moron, ask isabella rosellini, you can take off your clothes and confront your soul...only the laws of the land don't allow it

if we were allowed to make meaningful movies we wouldn't be in competition with meth head housewives taking their clothes off on a web cam for free...but the LAW requires us to just have boring vanilla go nowhere sex which any moron can do for nothing on the internet...porn didn't have to be boring, we could have taken a different path

[MADem]

98. Why do they have to disparage meat to make their point?

Why not go back to the old slavery motifs that were popular back in the day?

[defendandprotect]

114. Reminder of HUSTLER Mag's cover of a woman being put thru a meat grinder, perhaps?

:nuke:

[MADem]

118. I rather doubt it, but nice try. NT

[defendandprotect]

123. Few can forget HUSTLER Mag's meatgrinder -- and a woman going thru it -- !!

Granted a few are in denial of its meaning -- intent --

[MADem]

127. Apparently you like reading HUSTLER. It's not on my subscription list.

Tear your eyes away from that shit. Get a life. Stop looking for opportunities to object. It's almost as though you take delight in being offended by it.

You bring this shit on yourself with your obsessive focus on pornography. Turn off your computer, stop paying for it on your TV, don't order it on DVD. Don't LOOK. Don't seek it out.

Break the cycle--you can do it!

It's really very easy to avoid. I haven't had ANY trouble staying away from it--you can do it, too.

[defendandprotect]

130. EVERYONE saw HUSTLER'S cover ... it was notorious and shown everywhere -- for free -- !!

Tear your eyes away from that shit.

And glad to see that in reality you agree -- !!

ROFL

[MADem]

135. Sorry--"everyone" did not see it. I've never seen it.

And you certainly are not "everyone."

But then, I don't go skulking 'round the magazine racks looking for HUSTLER.

You should try living life my way--you won't be troubled by porn if you don't obsessively seek it out, like you seem to do, based on your own comments on this thread.

Stop trying to find porn behind every (forgive the expression) bush. You'll be less upset, and you'll stop bugging people who like the junk in the privacy of their own homes.

[Bucky]

100. Some of the chicks in that protest are pretty hot, you know, if they'd show a little more leg.

I keed, I keed
         

[defendandprotect]

115. Kind of makes BS of your signature line, doesn't it -- ????

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant of the weak and the strong - because someday you will have been all of these."
-- George Washington

[Yavin4]

106. I Have A More Basic Question: How Do You Define Porn?

For some, TV shows like "Sex and the City" or "Mad Men" or "Game of Thrones" can all be considered porn. Fashion magazines can be considered porn. Mainstream "R" rated horror movies depict far more graphic and violent scenes than do regular porn.

Once we start down the censorship road, many people would be stunned and surprised at what can be considered porn. Yes, there may be some things that we find personally distasteful and degrading, but that's the price of artistic freedom.

In addition, because of the internet, the availability of porn has grown exponentially. Yet, we've not seen a corresponding rise in criminal sexual assault. In fact, FBI stats show a decline in such crimes.

[defendandprotect]

116. No .... "Porne" ... from the Greek ... means PROSTITUTE ....

in other words, pornography is writing -- or stories -- about prostitutes --


There is a difference between pornography and erotica -- which is more descriptive of

"Sex and the City" or "Mad Men" -- and I'm not familiar with your other referncce --

However, I would guess that both shows were written by males --


I don't agree that in general fashion magazines can be considered porn --

However, they are often directing harmful propaganda to females -- usually centered on

body size -- and with articles intended to destroy their self-confidence and self-esteem --

to create insecurities.


But movies which offer the same violence vs women shouldn't either be overlooked as you point

out here ...

Mainstream "R" rated horror movies depict far more graphic and violent scenes than do regular porn.


and ...

Once we start down the censorship road, many people would be stunned and surprised at what can be considered porn. Yes, there may be some things that we find personally distasteful and degrading, but that's the price of artistic freedom.

No -- the porn industry is something different -- it is more akin to Nazi propaganda and films

meant to demonize and dehumanize Jews. I'm sure you recall the infamous Nazi film where Jews

were being portrayed as "rats running in the gutter" -- ???


You might also recall a fairly recent political ad by the GOP which ran D E M O C R A T S ...

across the bottom of TV screens, allowing the last letters to linger -- " R A T S " --


Also look to the propaganda vs the AA which portrayed them as "lazy, shiftless, unintelligent"

in an effort to make them seem unworthy of equal treatment -- human rights.


Same with homosexuals who were long demonized and dehumanized by "Christian" preachings from

pulpits each Sunday -- as an "abomination" --

These sermons even influenced Christian parents to abandon their own homosexual children -- !!

Such preachings serve to create intolerance and hatred for homosexuals -- and exposes them

to violence.



Re this ...

In addition, because of the internet, the availability of porn has grown exponentially. Yet, we've not seen a corresponding rise in criminal sexual assault. In fact, FBI stats show a decline in such crimes.

That would be an interesting discussion to have at some point when you might set up an OP on that

subject --

Not sure if that's true at all -- we have increasing rape and abuse of women in our prisons --

and RAPE is a highly underreported crime -- as sexual assault is, in general whether upon males

or females.

We also have huge numbers of rape and sexual abuse of women in our military -- and also again

many of those cases not reported.



. . . .


Oxford Dictionary --

Origin -- mid 19th century: from Greek pornographos 'writing about prostitutes'.

from porne 'prostitute' + graphine 'write'


Origin: < Gr pornographos, writing about prostitutes < pornē, a prostitute, orig. a euphemism, lit., (something) sold, akin to pernēmi, to sell (esp. as a slave, or for a bribe) < IE base *per-, to sell, bring across, come over > fare + Gr graphein, to write: see graphic

[MADem]

119. You're trying to suggest that IN ANCIENT GREECE there were no male prostitutes?

That's funny.

[defendandprotect]

124. No... YOU are suggesting that -- however, internet porn exploits females ....

Pornography is generally female-based in photos and story line --

and depicts these women as "prostitutes" --

[MADem]

129. Well, maybe you need to give up your focus on ancient Greece.

Because when I think ancient Greece, frankly, my first thought is not FEMALE prostitutes--not by a long shot.

Really, what you need to do is get off this horse. If you don't like porn, AVOID it Don't buy it, don't watch it. Stop telling others to eschew a legal product that they might like, however distasteful it might be to you. No one is demanding that you sit down next to them on their semen-stained couch and partake of a night at the movies, now, are they? No! So just leave them the hell alone. What they do in their own homes is none of your damn business, and your lecturing and pontificating is tiresome--and I don't even partake of the product.

You're spinning--and not in a good way.

[defendandprotect]

131. Focus was on Oxford Dictionary -- and the definition of pornography ....

just thought I'd explain that to you --

Bye -- !!

[MADem]

134. I thought you put me on ignore. How can I miss you when you refuse to go away?

Your focus was on ancient Greece. You've mentioned it in at least two posts.

Sorry, I don't think "women prostitutes" when I think ancient Greece. I'll bet I'm not alone, either.

[Yavin4]

137. Nice Avoidance of the Question

Yet, you still have not answered it at all.

You stated: There is a difference between pornography and erotica

What is the difference?

No -- the porn industry is something different -- it is more akin to Nazi propaganda and films meant to demonize and dehumanize Jews.

Plenty of media "de-humanize" women all of the time. Some even more so than porn. I think that movies depicting women desperate to get married are more "de-humanizing" than porn.

Not sure if that's true at all -- we have increasing rape and abuse of women in our prisons

FBI stats show that there's been a drop in criminal sexual assault even though there's an exponential increase in all variations of porn.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-09-19/fbi-violent-crime-down/50464546/1?csp=34news

[Aerows]

177. You hit the nail on the head

What is the difference between porn and erotica? Every single person you ask is going to have a different opinion. It's the old "Well, I know it when I see it" answer.

Also, I do not buy the argument that just because a person reads or watches "porn" that they automatically want to take part in the acts being depicted. That's sort of like saying that everyone who watches horror movies wants to become a serial killer, or that everyone who watches cop shows wants to be a cop.

[minavasht]

111. If you don't like the competition,

just ban it!

[joe1991]

140. This thread is useless without pics!

...somebody had to say it. :)

[defendandprotect]

151. Picture Linda Lovelace being forced at GUNPOINT to perform in Deep Throat --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5004300&mesg_id=5007205

[GliderGuider]

174. I'll see your Linda Lovelace and raise you an Annie Sprinkle

Now there is a self-empowered Goddess. Seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Sprinkle

For every anecdote there is an equal and opposite anecdote.

[defendandprotect]

197. Didn't see anything there about Annie being forced at GUNPOINT ... !!

:nuke:

[GliderGuider]

201. She wasn't. That was my point.

She was the mistress of her own destiny all the way through. She's now a very successful performance artist who combines sexuality and spirituality in her work. I admire her tremendously.

However, back in the day she was simply another porn actress with a talent and an attitude. She was the first woman I ever saw squirt in a video, many years ago. I never knew such a thing was possible, and it turned out to be a very helpful thing to know later on in life, at least according to several non-abused but very happy partners.

Hmm... maybe men do learn things from pron after all! :evilgrin:

[defendandprotect]

206. I'm sure Lovelace was also "a mistress of her own destiny" ... until threatened at GUNPOINT ....!!

And as for your discovery -- read some history on women seeking relief from their

doctors of what was called "nervous disorders" and "hysteria" -- treated by those

doctors with "massage" of vagina/clitoris -- until RELIEF was attained --

And later devices for that purpose being sold even in Sears Roebuck catalogs -- !


Knowledge is power -- that's why so much information is kept from the public --

the efforts to prevent sex education in schools even now is the same thing --




However, back in the day she was simply another porn actress with a talent and an attitude. She was the first woman I ever saw squirt in a video, many years ago. I never knew such a thing was possible, and it turned out to be a very helpful thing to know later on in life, at least according to several non-abused but very happy partners.

[LanternWaste]

141. another nail in the coffin of the mythology of the 'Prudish' western culture...

If nothing else, stories (and threads) like these are another nail in the coffin of the mythology of the 'prudish' western culture and our delicate sensibilities when it comes to sex.

[HughBeaumont]

144. Well, this was productive.

I can name at least 20 things off the top of my head that are FAR more important to bitch about than this. Seriously.

[defendandprotect]

150. That's only if you look at pornography in a very limited way ... ignoring the industry

behind it and the abuse and violence the women suffer --

Or if you fail to understand pornography as propaganda vs women and their humanity.

[pitohui]

152. porn? that still alive?

considering what the internet and the recession has done to the porn industry this is a bit like protesting the british invading washington d.c.

it ain't 1812 any more, it ain't 1992 any more

far from inciting hatred, porn doesn't even incite masturbation or the expense of $$$...it's dead, jim

easy to "protest" and step on the head that has already been run over by a couple three 18 wheelers! don't take any courage to do that!

[defendandprotect]

158. Right ... the porn industry $10 billion a year / COMCAST $1 BILLION A YEAR ...

is simply a shadow of what it once was -- !! ROFL

There will continue to be an growing free volume of porn on the internet for the

purpose of luring males in -- and it is increasingly hardcore --

[pitohui]

163. yes since you don't know what you're talking about keep saying it louder and louder

there is a growing free volume of porn on the internet because most porn now is not for profit

the industry is on the ropes, this is a simple matter of financial fact but if you really think there are billions to be made, why aren't you making them?

do it and show us how because i was in this industry and there is no there there as far as all this big money you fantasize about...you're in a dream world, hon

who would be poor, who would be homeless, if all you had to do to make millions was fuck on camera? jeez, common sense please!!!

[defendandprotect]

164. YOU were in the industry ---

and hyou're on ignore --

Bye --

We should be taking porn very seriously. Studies show that the more porn men watch, the more they want to play out porn sex in the real world. They become bored with their sex partners because they don’t look or act like the women in porn.

What is new over the past five years or so is young men admitting their addiction to pornography. I had been somewhat sceptical of the addiction model, thinking that it was a way for men to avoid taking responsibility for their porn use. But sex and relationship therapists Wendy Maltz and Larry Maltz discuss in their book The Porn Trap how therapists are seeing a wave of porn addicts looking for help. They find that “what used to be a small problem for relatively few people had grown to a societal issue that was spilling over and causing problems in the lives of countless everyday people”.

[defendandprotect]

166. Actually, porn industry profits globally = $96 BILLION/US $13 BILLION --

Evidentally, the $10 BILLION figure is simply internet porn in US --


Though reliable numbers are hard to come by, the global industry was estimated to be worth a staggering $96 billion in 2006, with the US market worth about $13 billion. Each year more than 13,000 porn films are released and their revenues rival those of all the major Hollywood studio films combined. DailyTech, an online magazine, reports that a recent study found about 37 per cent of online pages contain pornographic content, and porn sites increased 17 per cent from 2009 to 2010.

Adult Video News, the trade paper of the porn industry, says the most profitable porn today is that which depicts hardcore, body-punishing sex - called "Gonzo" by the industry. In this type of porn, sex is not about making love. The feelings and emotions we normally associate with such an act - connection, empathy, tenderness, caring, affection - are missing, and in their place are those we normally associate with hate: fear, disgust, anger, loathing and contempt.

The man "makes hate" to the woman, as each sex act is designed to deliver the maximum amount of degradation. Whether it be aggressive fellatio or violent sodomy, the goal of porn sex is to illustrate how much power he has over her. Yet the women are still portrayed as enjoying these scenes. Images like these are commonplace on the internet and shape the way men think about sex, relationships and intimacy.

A key factor driving the growth of the porn market has been the development of technologies allowing users to buy and consume porn in private, without embarrassing trips to seedy stores or video rental shops. These technologies also enable pornography to be viewed anywhere, any time: even the global mobile phone market for porn is expected to reach $3.5 billion this year, according to British-based Juniper Research.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/how-the-hardcore-porn-industry-is-ruining-young-mens-lives-20110517-1erac.html#ixzz1Z7kR7tCR


Also note that this industry lobbies politicians -- runs legal challenges and effects public

opinion using PR -- uses sophisticated marketing -- and like so many other industries seeks

to portray its product as something positive -- i.e., the myth of porn as "harmless fun"

and "fantasy" -- "not to be taken seriously" -- !!

[GliderGuider]

179. No, those are revenues, not profits. And apparently even the profits are suffering from shrinkage

http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/porn-industry-porn-sales-porn-business/10/18/2010/id/30612

If you answered “true” to any of the above, you’d be dead wrong. In fact, the business of making porn is a business like no other, and if there’s anything the adult movie industry has excelled at in recent years -- while its profits have plummeted -- it’s convincing the public that it’s a legitimate business. In reality, it’s anything but.

For starters, Forbes debunked the widely disseminated myth of the porn business raking in as much as $14 billion a year in sales back in 2001. That unsourced number was pulled from a 1998 Forrester Research study on online adult content and was mentioned in passing. So how much money do Americans spend buying and renting adult movies? The answer: Nobody knows. The mega-billion-dollar numbers you see repeated in the mainstream media come from Adult Video News, the porn industry’s trade magazine, well-known for its propensity to exaggerate pretty much everything having to do with porn.

Since, the bottom has dropped out of the adult video business. The widespread availability of low-cost video cameras meant anyone who could afford one could make a porn movie, and the market was quickly saturated with adult content. Contrary to the popular belief that pornographers have remained ahead of the curve when it comes to technology, early on, pornographers failed to recognize the threat that the Internet posed to their businesses, and online content pirating hit the industry hard. A series of federal obscenity indictments under the Bush administration also induced a chilling effect in Porn Valley that didn’t help matters. By the spring of 2009, most adult directors and producers that I spoke with told me they were seeing profits dropping by 30% to 50% across the board, and adult companies were folding left and right.

[defendandprotect]

192. OK -- Global revenue $96 BILLION -- $13 BILLION domestically --

However the issue is exploitation and abuse of females in internet porn --

[LetTimmySmoke]

162. Not this again.

Can't people mind their own business?

[defendandprotect]

168. Should they when pornography effects us all -- ?

[Aerows]

173. Does it affect us all?

Here's my take on it - they are opening a dialogue up on the subject, making people think that maybe some porn goes to far. Nothing wrong with that. Does that mean that we should automatically do something about it? No, I don't think so, because the term "pornography" is so subjective. There are already laws against non-consensual sex. If they are just acting like they aren't consenting, that's a whole other story. Not everyone has the same sexual fantasies, and that's exactly what this is - fantasy. I don't buy the argument that just because someone indulges in watching a type of porn that they want to indulge in the acts shown on the screen.

[defendandprotect]

186. You don't think its "affecting" 11 year old males who are watching it -- ?

Here's my take on it - they are opening a dialogue up on the subject, making people think that maybe some porn goes to far. Nothing wrong with that. Does that mean that we should automatically do something about it? No, I don't think so, because the term "pornography" is so subjective.

First, yes -- mental health professionals have been seeing an increasing number of males who

are suffering from this addiction where it is having a very negative effect on their lives.


"Maybe some porn goes too far" -- ?

The estimate now is that the females involved in this body punishing porn are lasting only about

three months due to the impact on their bodies.

And again this is specifically about internet porn which is quite different and bringing over the

last 10-15 years a very violent form of pornography to the internet.


There are already laws against non-consensual sex. If they are just acting like they aren't consenting, that's a whole other story. Not everyone has the same sexual fantasies, and that's exactly what this is - fantasy. I don't buy the argument that just because someone indulges in watching a type of porn that they want to indulge in the acts shown on the screen.

Naive at all?

How are those laws stopping the rise of the global slave trade we're seeing -- with routes

coming thru US -- and based on kidnappings of females and young males?

How are those laws stopping male-on-male rape in our prisons? And, btw, males who are sexually

abused often upon release engage in rape in order to "prove their manhood."

How are those laws stopping rape in our military -- where we are seeing women drugged and

often gang raped?

How did those laws protect Linda Lovelace and others foreced to engage in pornographic films?


Pornography isn't about individual fantasy -- it's about providing an industry-wide fantasy

based on abuse of and violent sexual acts upon females.

[Harmony Blue]

176. Human beings are sexual

and that is beautiful. It effects me positively.

[Aerows]

178. Exactly

And I object to the argument that just because you watch something that is a fantasy means that you want to do it in real life. I watched horror movies when I was young, but I have never had the urge to become a murderer.

Everyone has different fantasies, and frankly, I'd rather people have the right to explore those in private without recourse than to force them into dangerous situations. Banning things sometimes does more harm than good (see the war on drugs).

[defendandprotect]

188. This is an abusive industry-wide fantasy of sexual assault --

and 11 year old males are being introduced to this "fantasy" on the internet --


And I object to the argument that just because you watch something that is a fantasy means that you want to do it in real life. I watched horror movies when I was young, but I have never had the urge to become a murderer.

Try reading some of what Gail Dines is actually saying about how this abusive porn desensitizes

males to violence against females after repeated watchings --


And again, this is pre-designed fantasy produced by an industry -- not individual fantasy --

and also quite differnent from actual fantasies in that this abuse is acted out by real people

and often offering violence against females.


Everyone has different fantasies, and frankly, I'd rather people have the right to explore those in private without recourse than to force them into dangerous situations. Banning things sometimes does more harm than good (see the war on drugs).

If you listen to rapists in our prisons, they point to pornography being a problem.

No one is seeking to "ban" anything -- change comes from conscious-raising --

Asking the questions that need to be asked.

Porn is now a $96 BILLION a year global business -- and that kind of profit is certainly

it has in common with the Drug War!

[defendandprotect]

187. Great -- but the issue is porn based on abusive sexual behavior --

If you have anything to say on that issue --

or the rise of global sexual slavery -- type away --

[SpartanDem]

193. Define abuse

Is it merely filimg the act? Or talk about porn featurning S&M

[defendandprotect]

196. It is about the reality that today's internet porn --

especially over the last 10-15 years, bears little relationship to the porn

of the past -- and that it too often features violence against women.


Let me recommend that you read something of what Gail Dines' is saying about

today's porn and the effect on males in our society -- and eventually on all of society.

[Aerows]

172. Slippery slope

You start banning porn, and it won't stop with just a particular type of porn. There was a woman not too long ago that attempted to tear down an artwork in a museum because it was a painting of a woman with her breast bared. "Porn" is very subjective. What is "porn" to one person is not necessarily "porn" to another person.

There are already laws that address non-consensual acts, etc. If people want to film legal acts, and people want to watch those films, it's their own business. Also, these women want to protest against it in an attempt to get people to think. That's their right, as well. Just because they are protesting it and opening a dialogue about it doesn't mean something automatically should be done to ban it.

[defendandprotect]

189. Violence against women is a "slippery slope" --

especially when it is ignored -- !!

You start banning porn, and it won't stop with just a particular type of porn. There was a woman not too long ago that attempted to tear down an artwork in a museum because it was a painting of a woman with her breast bared. "Porn" is very subjective. What is "porn" to one person is not necessarily "porn" to another person.

Wow -- huge problem there! What about women in our military being raped and gang raped?

Somewhat more widespread problem.

This isn't about "banning" porn -- it's about conscious-raising about violence against women

and how that violence is portrayed in porn.


Again -- to suggest that women in porn are protected from being FORCED to perform is naive!

I'd recommend that you read some of what Gail Dines is actually saying --

[aikoaiko]

184. I thought this rhetoric failed in the 1980s.

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

190. Today's internet porn is quite different from anything seen before --

I'd suggest you actually read something of what Gail Dines is saying --

This is about abusive and violent sexual acts being performed in internet porn --

too often being accessed by 11 year old males --

[Harmony Blue]

217. That is a very flimsy argument

which is why most will tune you out. If you want people to be open to your opinions, you don't try to use extremely rare circumstances or broad, vague conclusions.

[LanternWaste]

205. Madison Avenue's victory over us takes many, many venues.

Madison Avenue's victory over us takes many, many venues. There was a movie I believe in which one character said something to the effect of "Satan's biggest victory was convincing us he didn't exist".

I would imagine the same may be said for Madison Avenue convincing us we like A, convincing us to defend A, convincing us that A falls well within our political and ethical spectrum (regardless of what our politics or ethics may or may not be), convincing us to rationalize A at all cost, and convincing us to justify that A is part and parcel of Complete Freedom Without Cost.

If that is the case, it certainly worked in this particular venue. Nine out of ten dentists said so...

[The Straight Story]

222. Her body, her choice. Someone wants to be in a porn, then unless you are rw control freak

then let them.

Don't like porn- don't watch it or be in it.

Don't like going to bars that allow smoking, don't go to one.

Or, we could just force others into our choices to save the sinners and savages, worked well for those damned Indians.

[and-justice-for-all]

224. Indeed...nt

[and-justice-for-all]

223. I disagree completely....

people volunter and get paid to do porn, and if people do not like it then they do not have to watch it.

[ButterflyBlood]

230. Sounds like some people need to mind their own business

Wonder where they were at oil or tobacco industry conferences.