NYPD chief: We could take down plane if necessary

[tcaudilllg]

Source: MSNBC

NEW YORK — The New York Police Department could take down a plane if necessary, Commissioner Ray Kelly said Sunday, describing the counter-terror measures he implemented after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Kelly decided the city couldn't rely on the federal government alone after the attacks, he told CBS' "60 Minutes".

And so he set about creating the NYPD's own counter-terrorism unit, which is prepared for multiple scenarios and could even take down a plane, he said.

"I knew that we had to supplement, buttress our defenses of this city," Kelly told "60 Minutes".

"We couldn't rely on the federal government alone. I believed that we had to create our own counter-terrorism capacity, indeed our own counter-terrorism division. And, that plan was put into effect fairly rapidly," he added.

Kelly didn't divulge details about the NYPD's ability to take down a plane but said "obviously this would be in a very extreme situation."

International presence

The commissioner also told "60 Minutes" that the NYPD has intelligence officers stationed in cities around the world, including Abu Dhabi, Amman, Montreal, Toronto, Singapore and Paris.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44666835/ns/us_news-security/#.ToCYbVnF6a4

---

There are no words. Beware: this arsenal may be used against us in coming months.

Comment: does Ray Kelly rule NYC? Your opinion.

[aquart]

1. Mr. Kelly, where would "down" be?

Understand, there should be NO planes in Manhattan airspace. But bringing one "down" would put it where? On top of how many? Not sure that would improve the situation.

[truth2power]

36. You beat me to it. The first thing I thought was, bringing a plane down in a populated area

would injure or kill hundreds of people at the least.

Don't these people ever think about what they're saying and how stupid it sounds?

Seems to me like some guy just waving his dick around, if you'll excuse me for saying so.

[dixiegrrrrl]

2. DHS has co-opted/militarized the police

much as the military has taken over the National Guard.
I find that very very frightening.

And you are right, "Beware: this arsenal may be used against us in coming months."
that is EXACTLY what Chris Hedges said in New York Sat.
It will not be a surprise to anyone who has been awake and alert for the past few years.

What Kelly is proving is that we are well on the road to totalitarianism.

Is there anything about this definition that does not apply today?:

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.

Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media,
a single party that is often marked by personality cultism,
control over the economy,
regulation and restriction of speech,
mass surveillance,
and widespread use of terror.

Wiki defintion

[tcaudilllg]

8. There is no regulaton/restriction of speech

Scalia ruled recently that you can threaten someone who works in government on your blog or a forum, and get away with it. He's kinda hardcore about that.

Mass surveillance: check, but at the end of the day the surveillers aren't particularly dangerous.

Widespread use of terror: check.

Control over the economy: check.

1 party: Wall St. would say check... they have no sense of politics after all. Few who work in money matters do.

State media: check, but as this article's existence implies, there are holes. The legacy of Edgar R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite has not faded. Not yet.

[dixiegrrrrl]

Anytime you consign protesters to "free speech" zones

or "kettle" them when they try to walk down a street, you are restricting speech.

Esp. if nothing happens when right wing protesters hold a march/rally.

The Right Wing on going movement to ban books in libraries=restricting free speech.

Newspapers which refuse to print letters from one segment of the population= restricting free speech.

Mass surveillance is a form of intimidation, has the effect of limiting people who would speak.

[tcaudilllg]

21. Now the kettling is probably illegal

Otherwise I disagree. Banned books is not restricted speech, it is attempted restriction. You equate asserted law with real law. They are different.

[Demeter]

3. Jesus!

Too many Clint Eastwood, John Wayne and Harrison Ford movies!

Megalomania, anyone?

Not trusting the Feds, I can agree with that. Blowing airplanes out of the sky? That's not a police function.

[TheWraith]

4. HOW, pray tell?

Because the implication is that the NYPD has surface to air missile capability, which is really, really illegal for civilians to own, and I seriously doubt that it would be permissible for a police force under federal law.

[Ian David]

9. They have an Explosive Space Modulator. n/t

[MADem]

12. Maybe air to air.

Could be he has a stinger and a helo, nothing more.

He's not saying what KIND of plane, mind you. Maybe he's thinking "Cessna over the Hudson" while others are thinking Nahn Wun Wun.

[TheWraith]

15. Technically, a Stinger is a surface to air missile.

You can launch one from a helicopter, but it's not designed for that.

[MADem]

17. I know, but I'm thinking his idea of taking down a plane is to chase after

it with a helo. Maybe he has weaponry that he can clamp to the skids.

I think he was clumsily trying to reassure people. He didn't do a very good job, obviously.

[tcaudilllg]

20. He said he had agents in foreign capitals.

That on its face is illegal.

[MADem]

25. Some people try to talk big to impress people.

I'm guessing what he meant is that the police departments are sharing communications with INTERPOL and other international agencies. Scotland Yard has "agents" in foreign capitals, too--they ask the NYPD or DCPD for help, and surprise, surprise, they get it!

He wants to be perceived as being a tough guy who is on top of the situation. He's coming off as a bit of a blowhard-dork, though.

[boppers]

53. It's real people, on-site.

The whole label of "agent" is overblown.

[PavePusher]

56. Not if done through proper channels.

The FBI has lots of overseas liason officers, generally about one per embassy.

[PavePusher]

57. Not if done through proper channels.

The FBI has lots of overseas liason officers, generally about one per embassy, sometimes more. In countries with large organised crime ties to the U.S. (any nation south of Texas, Russia, Japan, etc.)they may have a large detachment.

[14thColony]

Your information is grossly outdated.

An air-to-air version of the Stinger has been around for over a decade. In fact it was specifically designed for use by helicopters. Google AIM-92 Stinger as opposed to FIM-92 Stinger, which is the original surface-to-air version.

[buckrogers1965]

70. Launching a stinger missle from a helicopter would be bad.

Smoke shoots out from the back of the tube for a 100 feet. Flames shoot out for a dozen feet or more. You couldn't see anything in the helicopter for a long time after you fired the missile.

It's called back blast. Looks like this:

http://preview-sd.wrightwood-group.com/samples/A-258/A258-393.DEMO.m4v

[MADem]

71. No, it's been done.

Not shoulder fired, mind. Purpose built: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-92_Stinger

[buckrogers1965]

72. Oh, that isn't really a stinger then.

Stingers are shoulder fired. That is a pod mounted anti aircraft missile, helicopers have used aim missiles for decades now.

[MADem]

73. Well, not to be a noodge, but they actually are stingers--the same ones

that go in the shoulder-fired get-up:

The AIM-92 Stinger or ATAS (Air To Air Stinger) is an air-to-air missile developed from the shoulder-launched FIM-92 Stinger system, for use on helicopters such as the AH-64 Apache, Eurocopter Tiger and also UAVs such as the MQ-1 Predator. The missile itself is identical to the shoulder-launched Stinger.

[buckrogers1965]

74. Impossible.

Super elevate and lead can't be done from a static launcher on a helicopter. At the very least it would require a different software on the missile to allow the missile to calculate it's own super elevation and lead.

[MADem]

75. Well, I have to say I'm stuck with believing my own lying eyes, and the link, over

your insistence. We can put a man on the moon, we can put ordinance on target OTH, I'm sure the software issues are factored into that model.

:hi:

[buckrogers1965]

77. I was a manpad crewmember

I know how the missile operates. Without being manually super elevated and leading the target, it would always miss, unless they updated the guidance system with something much less stupid.

[MADem]

78. I'm guessing they must have done as you surmised, else why call the thing a stinger? NT

[buckrogers1965]

80. Brand recognition.

If you have a brand with a good reputation you try to leverage that brand name into new markets.

[jmowreader]

81. It is very easy to do superelevation off a helicopter

The firing tube is installed so it's angled up.

You don't really NEED to do lead on a helicopter launcher--you just fly around until you're right behind the guy you want to shoot before you pull the trigger.

[buckrogers1965]

83. I'm betting this has never shot anything down.

But I bet it was super expensive.

[jmowreader]

84. Ya got me...

I can't imagine it being THAT expensive because it's a conversion of an existing weapons platform, like the Avenger was.

And as for not shooting anything down with it, I don't know...there's no real reason it shouldn't work, because the missile itself does.

[MicaelS]

23. Stinger, Patriot or Rolling Airframe Missile..

All of which are SAMs. OTOH, this could be the beginning of a major political shit storm if the administration or DOD has signed over some SAMs to NYC.

[sir pball]

63. Not a Stinger..

92s are light defense systems, helos and fighters. Too small to nearly guarantee downing a commercial aircraft, which is what I'd assume Kelly is talking about. For that one definitely needs an MIM-104 (Patriot) or an RIM-66 (Standard). No freaking way the DoD would hand the NYPD a 104, especially without passing along the $170,000,000 unit cost...and 66s are exclusively part of the Aegis combat system.

I suppose the USN could be keeping an Arleigh Burke or Ticonderoga on station within 100 miles of NYC but other than that I'm calling shenanigans.

[sir pball]

64. D'oh

After RTFA he's talking light aircraft, which a .30 cal bolted to a helo could handle. Still, that's entirely ridiculous for LE. Call the ANG..

[Politicalboi]

28. Well apparently

The Pentagon doesn't have them either. They had almost 40 minutes on 9/11. And they did NOTHING.

[boppers]

54. Pentagon does war.

Rapid response to domestic terrorism was never their strong suit, having local planes/helicopters to fill and fly that fast, troops don't suit and deploy that fast, hence, paramilitary police units and equipment.

Here's a timeline for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._military_response_during_the_September_11_attacks

Not sure where your "40 minutes" are.

[hlthe2b]

5. So first Cheney coopted the concept of Commander in Chief--thereby

bastardizing the entire constitution. Now we have a big city police commissioner giving HIMSELF the power to decide whether or not hundreds of innocents die based on HIS assessment of what might be going on on a plane APPROACHING NYC airspace? Huh?

This has gone WAY too far. If Obama's administration does not knock this back, if the idiot congress does not take issue, I fear we have lost any sense of constitutional limits and will be left with mere remnants (memories) of democracy.

[jtuck004]

6. Should we moderate police power when they have developed the

capability to take down, say, a foreign-owned airplane, and provoke a war with another country? That should be controlled and operated by a Federal military person stationed in the city. (This capability could come in handy if we get attacked by aliens or Dick Cheney.)

I'm thinkin' it's one thing to rape and shoot people who are on their knees with no weapon in their hands, or shoot them in the back when they are in handcuffs on the floor and held down by police officers, but geez. There should be limits to police arsenals.

[dixiegrrrrl]

14. "aliens LIKE Dick Cheney"

there, fixed it for you.
.
:evilgrin:

[jtuck004]

37. Ha. Absolutely. /nt

[SavWriter]

24. Just a point

A single military person would not have a chance against Dick Cheney and his shotgun.

[bongbong]

7. Right now

Right now the Ground To Air missiles have been switched to Ground To Ground and pointed at the Wall Street protesters.

[No Elephants]

10. Bingo, bongbong.

[MicaelS]

11. Kelly is going to regret this big time..

The blowback on this is going to be enormous. I would not be surprised if he is forced to resign. What is saying is they have SAMs. Just imagine what foreign carriers who fly in NYC airports are going to say about this.

EDIT: I wonder if they have a handshake agreement with the NYS ANG to provide fighter aircraft to do the deed? Those units are controlled by the Governor of the State. But, I wonder even after 9/11 if POTUS is going to delegate authority to the state level to allow them to shoot down passerger airliners?

[dixiegrrrrl]

44. You may be onto something.

Since DOD/Pentagon has taken all of our real military out of the country to fight wars of imperialism,
and since Homeland Security has poured TONS of money into police depts all over the nation,
training them to act like military ( remember that Blackwater/Xe got HUGE contracts to train police depts)
then it makes sense that any "first responders" would now the increasingly militaristic police.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. He's totally full of shit, to the gills.

At best, he bought into the whole '.50 caliber sniper rifles can bring down airliners' bullshit meme.

He is in all ways, completely full of shit.

[tcaudilllg]

19. I don't think the people who interviewed him are

I think this is common knowledge by people who are intimate with the workings of the NYPD. I think there is fear for the protestors and people are trying to take away the department's big toys before something terrible happens.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. I believe the interviewers, at least, they asked the right questions.

Even sleepy Redmond, here in Washington has two tanks. But surface to air capability, let alone the radar tracking required to spot an incoming plane, is a bit beyond them.

But the protestors, hell yes, I'd be worried about them. He undoubtably has access to LRAD's and all sorts of heinous shit that the police shouldn't be bringing to bear against people exercising their constitutional rights.

[PavePusher]

40. Well, no actually, I don't think he did.

The article clearly said light aircraft, airliners would not be attempted.

For one, a police helicopter would not be able to match speed with an airliner, even the slower ones.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Their Bell 412's and Koala's can't outrun a Cessna 172.

Edit: The Koala's would maybe have a closing speed of 1-5mph depending on the age of the cessna 172.

[SavWriter]

16. Are you telling me that the NYPD needs or has

Anti Aircraft missiles? Fighter jets armed with air to air weapons? What do you have there Chief? Blue Thunder?

[PavePusher]

45. Did you even read the article? It would appear not.... n /t

[jberryhill]

18. Aha! That explains it

First one to claim it was a secret test wins a prize!

Somehow I doubt that Kelly saying such a thing makes it true.

[leveymg]

22. "Support Our Troops At Home and Abroad" - NYPD bumper sticker>

[Dawson Leery]

27. Oink.

Police are not the "troops", they are NOT military!

[leveymg]

34. Tell that to the man with the Kevlar helmet and the automatic rifle.

Which one? You may well ask.

[Dawson Leery]

49. Bust up the FOP indeed.

LEO's have more than enough protection (as state agents). They do not need anymore.

[leveymg]

51. You'd think they'd be satisfied with the power they already have without macing girls they corral

Makes the guys with white shirts and gold badges seem petty and perverse. Reminds me of the five year old boys who poke caged cats with sticks and pluck out the eyes of frogs. You don't give them real guns for Xmas.

[AtheistCrusader]

30. 'Benevolent'.

Ministry of Love.

[leveymg]

35. Pepper spray isn't brutality, it's "a pacifying agent."

[dixiegrrrrl]

42. Holy shit. Is that real?

"Benevolent" eh?

[leveymg]

52. Unfortunately, yes.

[AngryOldDem]

62. That is one chilling bumpersticker. Damn.

Support our troops at home and abroad...OR ELSE.

[Politicalboi]

26. So they can take out planes

But the police and fire can't talk to each other with the radio's they have. Money well spent.

[bvar22]

31. This DOES seem to exceed the charter of a Municipal Police Department.

:shrug:


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[jwirr]

32. Great - now will you tell us what you are going to leave standing -

protests are covered under our Constitution's first amendment - are you going to leave that standing?

[KansDem]

33. Wow, Ray! Is your pepper spray that strong?

:scared:

[drdtroit]

38. How about starting with taking down the psychopaths in your department? n/t

[PavePusher]

39. By "take down a plane", they are talking about shooting down a light aircraft....

(Cessna, etc.) with a .50 cal rifle from what whould have to be a fairly fast helicopter. While it could theoretically be done, it wouldn't be easy or any kind of guaranteed success. Frankly, I'm pretty doubtful they could manage it.

[tabasco]

43. Great. People like Bernie Kerik deciding whether to shoot down planes.

Just great.

Did the terrorists win?

[PavePusher]

46. How much time do you think will be available in such a decision-loop....

and how many administrative layers should one have to go through?

I'm not saying I'm in favor of it, but someone has to make the decision, and the decision has to be made quickly enough to be put into action, if approved.

[dixiegrrrrl]

47. Looks like they did:

Gallup poll published today:
note the last poll item.

* 82% of Americans disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job.

* 69% say they have little or no confidence in the legislative branch of government,
an all-time high and up from 63% in 2010.

* 57% have little or no confidence in the federal government to solve domestic problems,
exceeding the previous high of 53% recorded in 2010 and well exceeding the 43% who have little
or no confidence in the government to solve international problems.

* 53% have little or no confidence in the men and women who seek or hold elected office.

* Americans believe, on average, that the federal government wastes 51 cents of every tax dollar,
similar to a year ago, but up significantly from 46 cents a decade ago
and from an average 43 cents three decades ago.

* 49% of Americans believe the federal government has become so large and powerful
that it poses an immediate threat to the rights and freedoms of ordinary citizens.
In 2003, less than a third (30%) believed this.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/149678/Americans-Express-Historic-Negativity-Toward-Government.aspx

[ChairmanAgnostic]

86. The real question. . .

Just who are the terrorists?

[14thColony]

48. I seriously doubt he's referring to shooting down a large acft

Either a) "take down" refers to storming an aircraft on the ground in a hostage/hijack situation, or b) he's talking about using a high-power rifle against a very small aircraft, probably from a chase helo. Scenario 1 realistic, scenario 2 requires a fast helo, a world-class marksman, and a target pilot willing to fly straight and level to be helpful.

As for the surface-to-air missile or air-to-air missile scenarios, the most likely missiles to be used (variants of shoulder-fired SAMs) have a poor record of taking out wide-body aircraft. Warheads are too small to do more than take out one engine in most cases, and airliners always have at least one spare engine.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. Sounds like he was bragging more than anything else

You can take out a airline with a Stinger or equivalent. The record is better than you seem to think.

From other sources he may really mean Barret style 50 caliber rifles deployed in a helo. That is much more problematical. Anything faster than a 172 can out run NYPD choppers, and there are also altitude limitations to consider as well.

So in his scenario, the passenger jet would have to be within the ceiling of the loaded chopper, flying slow and not notice that their engines were being shot at...

[14thColony]

59. 28.6% success rate over forty years

That's MANPADS versus commercial jet airliners; 4 shot down in 14 documented attacks. If you add in medium and large military transport aircraft, it actually gets slightly worse. So I stand by my characterization of a 28.6% success rate as poor, but then perhaps I'm too demanding.

Yes, I concur that the sniper-in-a-helicopter scenario is in 'snowball's chance in hell' territory for all the reasons we collectively mentioned.

In either scenario, I fail to see the enhanced value of a now out-of-control aircraft plummeting into New York City. It seems the mentality is "he may kill hundreds, but at least we'll make sure it's not the hundreds he WANTED to kill."

[AtheistCrusader]

65. NYPD Aviation's helicopters can't even catch up to a Cessna 172.

Too slow.

The gun is in a safe. Has to be retrieved and mounted.
The helo has no radar, so will rely on visual reports, or ground control to even find a target, good luck with that, especially if the target has no transponder.
The rifle has only a few shots, when the air force (or the army, back in the day) used a .50 against aircraft, they used a fully automatic belt fed weapon.
A helo isn't a terribly stable platform, particularly in high winds.

and on top of all that, their helicopters are too damn slow to intercept much of anything.

[14thColony]

66. Concur

I see the only result being half-inch diameter holes in various office buildings in New York.

[AtheistCrusader]

67. Yep.

And you could accomplish the same effect against that same hypothetical cessna with a M-16 firing .223, if only you could catch up with it. These are simple civilian aircraft. A .50 is massive overkill, and might do more damage to people on the ground, than the terrorists in the first place.

[marasinghe]

55. and this poster child for 'smart' police work, would be the next mayor of New York ....

.... if those dumass moderates who voted a decrepit, corporate crypt-keeper of a repuke has-been, to replace Anthony Weiner - spread their toxic stupidity around this City.

so, in answer to your query: this crypto-fascist might very well be given the keys to the kingdom, in the next mayoral election.
As smart people have forewarned - never underestimate the innate idiocy of the General Public taken en masse.

[Kennah]

58. This is how he'll do it

[goforit]

60. You mean even Bush couldn't call him off the take down?

Not!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

61. Kelly would love to run a City/State that's a nuclear power

Shooting down an unarmed airliner is not all that much fun.

But, wow, if he could nuke Boston, that would be something!

:hi:

[Renew Deal]

76. lol

:rofl:

I think Boston nuked themselves this year. :evilgrin:

[GliderGuider]

68. So that's where those 20,000 Libyan shoulder-launched SAMs went.

We've been looking for them...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5007906

[Auntie Bush]

69. They can take down women with mace too. Bully for them!

[defendandprotect]

79. kr

[jmowreader]

82. Okay, okay, I read the article...

He is trying to shoot down light aircraft with Barrett .50-cal sniper rifles in helicopters, not surface-to-air missiles.

What might be entertaining is to send this jackass, one of his snipers and a rifle to White Sands Missile Range and let him try to shoot down a light aircraft-size drone with that get-up.

I'm envisioning the New Number Two Man talking to one of his planners about this terrible occurrence:

"Muhammad! Whatever will we do? The New York Police Department's commissioner says he has snipers who can shoot down a light aircraft with a single-shot .50-caliber rifle. He has destroyed all our planning for the next New York City attacks!"

'Rashim, you stupid shit, just hijack bigger airplanes."

[ChairmanAgnostic]

85. Paris?

I want that gig.