Germany warns Greece over rescue

[dipsydoodle]

Source: BBC News

The eurozone plan to save Greece from bankruptcy is not up for renegotiation, Germany has warned, ahead of emergency talks with Greece and France.

" we just agreed last week cannot be placed back on the table," Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said.

Greek PM George Papandreou is to meet France's Nicolas Sarkozy and Germany's Angela Merkel later on Thursday.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15555449

[marmar]

1. Perhaps Merkel and Sarkozy should stop acting like mob bosses......

..... and let democracy take its course.

[truebrit71]

2. Or perhaps the Greeks should swallow their medicine and not look a gift horse in the mouth..

...the alternative is a hard default and then the shit will really hit the fan..

[GliderGuider]

4. "the alternative is a hard default and then the shit will really hit the fan"

You say that like it's a bad thing. That, unfortunately, is precisely what the global economy/financial system needs. Yes it will hurt, but the current system we have is utterly unsustainable, and the sooner that situation is corrected the less long-term damage there will be. The further we kick this can full of crap down the road, the harder the inevitable correction will be.

Greece needs to default, for the sake of the future of humanity. It's time to start the reset process.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Berlin Expat]

7. You say that like that's a bad thing

You're correct. The best thing would be a default by Greece.

The EU (and everyone else) has been kicking the can down the road for far too long.

If Greece defaults, it won't be easy, but there are long-term advantages for Greece to do so. They could get their old currency back, the drachma, and from that point on devalue their currency as needed. This also would allow for Greek exports to become cheaper worldwide, no longer being denominated in €.

The problem is that the EU leaders have become so wedded to their grand notions of a unified Europe, they can no longer think clearly. They're not seeing the big picture; the PIIGS are simply unsustainable long term. Flowery rhetoric has triumphed over pragmatism. The PIIGS need to be cut loose.

The only countries that should be in the EU are Germany, France, the Low Countries, and the Baltic/Scandanavian countries. Maybe the Czech Republic and Slovakia, but that's really about it. The other countries have far too many grave systemic and structural issues(and some of the aforementioned aren't exactly in the best of shape, either). Until those issues are addressed and fixed, the PIIGS really don't belong in the EU.

I guess the EU seemed like a great idea at the time; but now reality has caught up to the dream, and the dream could end up being a nightmare if something isn't done, and pretty damned soon. Greece needs to go, sad to say, and the remainder of the EU needs to take a far more stringent look at some of it's other member states. Hopefully, the Greeks will simply pull out of the EU, which being a unilateral decision, would make it easier for the Boys from Brussels. That way, they won't have to be faced with the unpalatable (and I daresay, unthinkable) decision to expel Greece.

I do applaud PM Papandreou for the courage to call a referendum. It's one hell of a risky strategy, so I certainly wish him all the best, and a hearty congratulations to him for supporting democracy.

[tama]

11. The end of EU

was the Lissabon treaty. When nations given chance to vote over the new neoliberal constitution rejected it after informed discussions - France and Netherlands - and the same shit was pushed as Lissabon Treaty by "Boys in Brussels", EU lost any and all shreds of democratic legitimacy. If people in Nordic countries (Iceland and Norway not members, Sweden and Denmark refused euro, Finnish support for EU at historical low of 20%) are given a say, they won't stay EU-colonies of France and Germany and their bankster regimes in your Brave New EU. And I doubt the other areas you mention will remain either.

[CountAllVotes]

26. I couldn't agree more

It sickened me the way that the Euro was shoved down the throats of many countries, in particular Ireland.

How will the demise of the € affect the world? We don't know yet but it isn't looking good.

That Lisbon treaty was the biggest rip-off of a country's identity if there ever was one.

I suppose Merkel figures she'll walk away with her coveted Deutchmark in hand; fuck the rest of the EU. :puke:

:kick:

[loudsue]

33. What is the value of the Euro now? Has it lost a lot of value over this?

I'm out of the loop.

[CountAllVotes]

35. the euro has fallen some, but not a lot

However, it is unknown what the total cost of these bailouts will be. Fraud and crime are at the tip of the iceberg which is no surprise.

You have to feel sorry for the citizenry at large as they have little if any control.

Was just advised that the EU is highly concerned about the status of septic tanks in Ireland these days -- far more than the banking crisis and no, I am not kidding! And they wonder why the EU is going down? :dunce: :argh:

:kick:

[Renew Deal]

13. I completely agree about the problem with the "system"

All these bailouts are about saving a broken system. I don't necessarily mean capitalism, but more global finance.

[CoffeeCat]

31. Yes, Greek leaders lied about their...

...financials and now they've taken loans that they can't pay back. They're stuck. No one wants to
buy their treasuries--even at 30 percent interest--and they're stuck.

I think their leader did the right thing--put it to a vote. Let the people decide.

I agree with you--let the system crash. It's only serving the elites anyway. In fact, it's working
against the Greek people--just like the banks in the US are working against the citizens here.

Frankly, I'm sick to death of the banks and world leaders threatening people and suggesting that without
these greedy banks--the planet will implode.

Iceland is an example of what happens when you go rogue and refuse to play along with the elites---you survive and you gain freedom from
this corrupt system.

[fasttense]

8. Some gift?

Defaulting is the only way to get this debt monkey off the backs of the citizens who did NOT approve the loans to begin with. Some crooked politicians in collusion with the banks played games with loans and hid the true horror of the rising debt they were strapping the Greeks with.

There is absolutely NOTHING SMART about taking out another loan (even if it is from Germany or the IMF)to pay off existing loans.

Iceland allowed the banks to default and they are not only doing just fine, but they are experiencing growth:

"Iceland's economy is expected to grow 3% this year and the government expects a budget surplus by 2013."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-the-world-can-learn-from-icelands-default-model-2011-8?op=1#ixzz1cYT8MtlL

True Iceland is not the picture of perfect health yet. We all are in a massive economic debt cycle, so it will take time for even the richest countries to recover. But Iceland is not giving up it's economic sovereignty to some con artist calling himself a banker. Nor is Iceland selling off it's assets at pennies on the dollar, nor forcing their poor and middle class to pay back debts they had no hand in creating.

Defaulting is NOT the doom and gloom bankers want you to believe it is.

[tama]

9. It's a gift to banksters

50% of nominal value of Greek debt beats the current mark to market value of Greek debt (20-30% of nominal value) royally. The cut would become effective by 2020 and even then the Greek debt would remain 120% of GDP. The latest package has nothing to do with helping Greece and all to do with desperate attempts to bail out banksters. Not to mention all the strings attached, which would make Greece de facto colony of IMF with the usual neoliberal 'austerity' robbery.

Red pill or blue pill, truebrit?

[Fool Count]

14. Or perharps Merckel and Sarkozi should swallow their medicine

and give the Greeks whatever they ask for. The alternative is a technical default of Greece
which would cost Germany and France infinitely more that what they are bargaining over now.
And infinitely more that it will cost Greece.

[GliderGuider]

16. Those costs all need to be paid at some point. Why not now? n/t

[tama]

17. Romano Prodi

just called Sarko and Merck "diabolical"... :D

[Celefin]

18. The shit will hit the fan sooner or later anyway

All the funny money has no real-world value to back it up.
We will never pay our way out of this swamp.

I'd much rather the whole rotten system went to the wall now while we still have resources left to rebuild instead of seeing our remaining wealth disappearing into black holes (or the Cayman Islands, for that matter).
If it kills the EU in the process maybe that's for the better.
Thats coming from someone who has defended the EU all his political life. *sigh*

Nobody will prevent a new "EU" being formed IF it is based on democratic values like the original vision of the EU was,
not on what the european conservative elites made of it over the last 15 years. For all its faults, the EU once was a wonderful project.

[JackRiddler]

22. Or perhaps you should leave the Victorian headmaster pronouncements back in the 19th Century.

Way to go for arrogantly patronizing whole nations with completely wrong diagnoses and prescriptions.

It's not "medicine," it's poison. It's not a bailout, except for German and French and other banks. The debt is odious. A default wouldn't be "shit hitting the fan," it is the necessary liberation from odious debt -- the real "medicine" is a default. Trouble now, but also freedom from the generations of debt slavery that the Troika is attempting to impose. The crisis finally is not Greek, but the same world crisis that Wall Street generated and that has been hitting most nations since 2008.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[workinclasszero]

6. Greece says FU Germany

So whats Germany going to do if the Greek people vote and tell the banksters to F off?

Send in tanks??

hmm...

[dipsydoodle]

10. Nope

They'll just leave the Euro and maybe even the EU too.

Be aware that in doing so the waves WILL be felt both sides of the Atlantic but also be aware that I give somewhat less than a shit what happens anyway.

[workinclasszero]

19. Good

I hope that wave breaks wall streets back!

Its coming anyway, one way or another. Those vampire banks and brokerages should have been allowed to fail here for their crimes and the bastards responsible should be in prison.

At least the Greek people get to vote on it unlike the shining example of the heights of democracy, USA.:sarcasm:

[tama]

15. The tank-preventive action

was already taken by the Greek PM whose family history remembers all too well when CIA sent Greek tanks on the streets in the Junta coup. He changed all the top brass of the Greek armed forces and removed all who were nominated by the former conservative government. Such actions speak louder than any words. Papandreou the 3rd may be many things, but he is no lover of fascists, does not want another fascist takeover of Greece, and seems to have the balls and knowhow to prevent it.

[workinclasszero]

20. Thats good to know

It seems euro is dead. What will happen when Spain and Italy default?

Wall streets scam is falling apart.

[tama]

21. What would you like to happen

What's the 'another world' you would like to create and live in?

[workinclasszero]

24. One that isn't ruled by greed and he who has the gold makes the rules

would be good.

An actual representative government. We need to dismantle the empire. 700 or so military bases around the world. Trillions spent on "defense" while old folks get pushed off a cliff, 50 plus million with no health care, millions on food stamps, no jobs and no future.

Who the hell voted for this garbage? At least Greece is putting it up for a vote. 1% bankster hell or justice and a life for the 99%.

Where the *uck is our vote on that? Its only in every occupy camp in this nation. No one else speaks for the 99% in this country and thats for damn sure!

[tama]

27. "Who the hell voted for this garbage?"

Kissinger once told leftist goody-gooders, that as long as they want to drive cars with imported oil and have a consumerist society with American standard of living, they silently subsrcibe to all the imperialism and other nasty business of realpolitik that keeps the goods flowing to American consumers and props the stockmarket and 401. So the question is rather: who didn't vote for this garbage?

Hippies didn't. Anarchists didn't. Native tribes didn't. To name a few. Sorry if you don't like this answer, but since you asked... :)

PS: I also would like liberty from greed and military etc. imperialism. Yes we can! :)

[GliderGuider]

29. Gee, I'm two for three...

Hippie, check.
Anarchist, check.
Native - not so much, though I have a good wide streak of primitivist sympathies.

Here's to the politics of refusal...:toast:

[tama]

30. Cheers! nt

[workinclasszero]

36. Oh your answer is totally right

Capitalism is an unsustainable process that oppresses the many for the very few and is killing the planet to boot.

We need to learn to take care of each other and get rid of the consumer driven societal model. Its a massive fail.

[dipsydoodle]

23. The likely outcome

isn't just that it will fuck your banking system - if all 5 countries go tits up it will fuck the USA itself.

[workinclasszero]

25. You think it isn't going to happen anyway?

So what to say to a 22 year old with a degree, 30,000 or so in student loans and can only find jobs that pay 10 bucks an hour...if their lucky?

Just wait for 30 years, it will get better? Every 20 something in America ought to be on the streets with occupy now! Every unemployed person, every under-employed person too!

We are all one sickness or one accident away from bankruptcy, homelessness and starvation! Or one layoff or firing.

Oh and then there's global warming which may extinguish us all as a species if we don't do something about it NOW!

Of course Big Coal and Oil and wall street will never stop that world killing process cause they make soooo much money off of it!

If you don't think the USA is already well and truly fucked, you need to get more informed, no offense intended.

We need a debt holiday. The Congress gave one to Wall Street, no strings attached, why not the 99%?

[Yo_Mama]

32. They won't give them any more money!

Don't forget, it's Germany and other countries that are giving Greece money, not the other way around.

[Duende azul]

34. Nope. The money was never supposed to be for Greece. It was meant to end up bailing out the banks.

So the Greece vs. Germany meme doesn´t apply here.

Do you think the Germans are happy with Merkel acting on behalf of the banksters?
Without going into more detail, in the current deal the haircut for the banks consisted in giving them 50 % on something they could otherwise only sell for 30 - 40 %. Good deal for the banks, bad deal for the greek people, bad deal for the german people.

[Renew Deal]

12. Anything can be renegotiated.

And Papandreou's move is looking better ever minute.

[kiranon]

28. Agree. n/t