Gillibrand backs bill to battle illegal gun sales

[SecularMotion]

Source: Poughkeepsie Journal

NEW YORK — U.S. Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand announced Sunday that she’s backing a bill that aims to crack down on corrupt gun dealers as well as eliminate the flow of illegal guns into New York.

Almost 90 percent of the firearms used in New York City gun crimes come from out of state, and most of those guns are illegal, according to the Democratic senator, who plans to introduce the Gun Trafficking Prevention Act this week.

It comes on the heels of an undercover probe into gun shows by New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. Investigators found an open marketplace for illegal weapons, with sellers disregarding mandatory background checks.

The probe also revealed a loophole in the law that holds the individual gun seller legally accountable but not the gun show operator. The legislation would close the nation’s “gun show loophole” and keep operators responsible.

Read more: http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article/20111204/NEWS/312040091/Gillibrand-Senate-gun?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|PoughkeepsieJournal.com

[jpak]

1. K&R shut down the gun shows

make all gun sales subject to backgroud checks and keep the paperwork on file

forever

yup

[hack89]

4. Too bad it is a state issue and not a federal one. nt

[jpak]

7. too bad the paperwork is filed with the feds

yup

[hack89]

20. The Federal government cannot impose regulations

on the private sale of guns within a state between residents of that state. It is an internal state issue. Only when the gun crosses state lines or the seller/buyer a from different states can the Feds get involved.

[No Elephants]

25. I do not believe that is accurate, as a matter of Constitutional law.

Under the commerce clause, the SCOTUS has upheld regulation of veggies a family grew in its own garden for consumption by them and them alone.

ETA: I'll specify, though it should go without saying, that I am basing my statement about Constitutional law on a case that has been decided by the SCOTUS and not yet overruled. I cannot say whether this Court or a subsequent Court would overrule or distinguish that case, if asked so to do.

And yes, I realize that growing veggies is not a Constitutionally protected right, but I believe the reach of the feds under the commerce clause is not limited simply because a constitutional right is somehow involved (or possibly involved) in the case. I believe there are two separate issues, namely where the feds may butt in (commerce clause) and then what they may do once they get there (second amendment). Conflating the two doesn't cut it.

[hack89]

29. The line seems pretty clear in regards to guns

I have yet to see a credible legal argument that the Federal government can regulate the sale of private property. Perhaps agricultural products are not considered private property? God knows our laws.and regulations are convoluted enough to defy common sense.

[No Elephants]

42. You have not seen a credible argument that feds can regulate the sale of private property?

Well, the SCOTUS has seen MANY it found credible. And yes, veggies you grew yourself with your own seeds on your own real estate are indeed your private property.

[hack89]

48. Then why do you think no one is proposing Federal legislation

to regulate the private sale of guns?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWraith]

2. Terrible journalism.

"sellers disregarding mandatory background checks."

"close the nation’s “gun show loophole”"

The fact that the background checks are mandatory is why the "gun show loophole" doesn't actually exist. A licensed dealer is required to complete a background check any time they make a sale; to not do so is a felony. A person acting as a dealer without a license is also committing a felony.

[jpak]

6. Private sellers at gun shows don't need to do background checks or file paperwork with the ATF

The NY AG office documented sales to undercover agents that clearly stated to "legitimate" (sic) FFL dealers that they could not pass a background check.

No problem - gun sold

they

suck

yup

[TheWraith]

8. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with being at a gun show.

If you're engaging in a legitimate private sale, you can do it anywhere, from a gun show to a supermarket parking lot.

If you're selling as a business, you're committing a felony, no matter where you do it.

This isn't rocket science, but you still seem reluctant to get it.

[jpak]

9. They congregate at gun shows all the time - and "legit" gun sellers will sell 2 anyone

background check or not

Guns shows are cesspools of RW GOP/NRA gun nuttery

and the Felon's Choice of gun venues

yup

[SteveM]

22. Wrong again. "Gun Shows" account for -1% of illegal sales. puy.nt

[No Elephants]

27. If sales at gun shows are exempt, they should not account for any percent of sales

that would be illegal if made elsewhere.

Please see sources cited in Reply 26.

[SteveM]

31. I don't think you understand the diff. between "gun show" and kitchen table...

I can sell you a gun over the kitchen table; no need for NICS (in fact, I couldn't access the system if I WANTED to).
I can sell you a gun over the table at a gun show; no need for NICS (in fact, I couldn't access the system if I WANTED to).

Gun shows are rent-a-halls. It could be a vacant lot, an auditorium, a convention center, a yard sale. But there seems to be an obsession with "gun shows" when they are only one of many fora where guns can be purchased from a non-dealer. I submit that the reason why crims, thugs, and goblins only purchase .08 percent of their guns from "gun shows," is because these places almost always have police (both uniformed and in plain clothes) who are looking for the above dregs of society; license plates, photos, tip-offs, etc., which make this forum particularly risky for a purchase. IMO, if you shut down gun shows (not going to happen), the few sales which are made there will go to other places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States

I believe the reason for a push to shut down gun shows, or regulate them out of existence, stems from more prosaic and traditional reasons which accompany any prohibition: To hide the thing or behavior, to render it illegal in some way, to de-legitimize the thing or behavior, to achieve SOME kind of victory no matter the effect, to not "celebrate" the prohibited thing. There is hardly a rational argument (at least in terms of resources, money, time, lost opportunity) for shutting down a forum accounting for .08% of illegal sales.

BTW, sales which occur at gun shows do not exempt the seller (you, me or any individual) from exercising diligent care about who we sell to; in other words, if the punk/thug if known to be a felon/mental incompetent, and you were to sell him/her a gun, and it was found out that you knowingly did this, you would be subject to arrest. That applies anywhere.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this.

[No Elephants]

43. Nothing in my post could possibly have led you to conclude that I don't understand the difference

between a gun show and a kitchen table.

And, if I say anything else, I'll violate some DU rules, which, contrary to the opinions of some, I actually try hard not to do.

[SteveM]

52. Respectfully, you may still not know...

I don't know what you mean by "...if I say anthing else, I'll violate some DU rules..." except to say that you are holding back a sweeping insult or condemnation of fellow progressives/liberal Democrats. That kind of stuff the mods frequently let go by, IMO. And "Nothing in my post could possibly have led you to do that."

To kitchen tables and gun shows. Gun shows are rental halls affairs wherein a manner of vendors may buy table space, typically one or more tables for one or more days, paid in advance. These vendors sell everything from tie-dye shirts to flintlocks to venison jerky. Now, among those folks are "kitchen table" dealers; folks who are NOT Federal Firearms Licensees. They do not (and CANNOT) access the NICS system, yet they have the legal right to sell all non-exempt arms (no sawed-offs, no full-autos, no "silencers," etc.). They cannot knowingly sell arms to criminals or mental incompetents; those which do are subject to arrest and prosecution. But they are not part of the NICS system. So shutting down a gun show is merely saying: "If you individual sellers/buyers meet up in the basement of the convention center, it is illegal. Stay at home or use E-Bay instead." That would be scrutinized by the courts as a violation of the 1st as well as the 2nd. It stands scrutiny here as well: What is the purpose of shutting down a gun show, if it is a legal gathering place for legal gun sales? Is it a big symbolic victory "over guns?" Is it "ridding the public of a moral eyesore?" Is law and policy-making the proper place for flashy political/prohibitionist statements?

The data indicate that less than 1% of convicted crims/thugs get their guns from "gun shows." Too many cops, I guess.

[burf]

28. Are you sure about that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x484196


In contrast, a Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) report on “Firearms Use by Offenders” found that only 0.8% of prison inmates reported acquiring firearms used in their crimes "At a gun show," with repeat offenders less likely than first-time offenders to report acquiring firearms from a retail source, gun show or flea market. This 2001 study examined data from a 1997 Department of Justice survey of more than 18,000 federal and state prison inmates in 1,409 State prisons and 127 Federal prisons.<20><21> The remaining 99.2% of inmates reported obtaining firearms from other sources, including "From a friend/family member" (36.8%), "Off the street/from a drug dealer" (20.9%), "From a fence/black market source" (9.6%), "From a pawnshop," "From a flea market," "From the victim," or "In a burglary." 9% of inmates replied "Don't Know/Other" to the question of where they acquired a firearm and 4.4% refused to answer.

[jpak]

11. They congregate at gun shows - not shopping centers - they go where the crooks go to buy guns

gun shows

yup

[TheWraith]

14. Actually, the FBI says only about 1% of criminals acquired their weapon at a gun show. nt

[jpak]

16. The NY Attorneys General Office begs to differ with you

yup

[TheWraith]

18. No, actually they don't.

10 arrests does not automatically make something larger than 1% of criminals. And the NY AG does things like this for publicity as much as anything else.

[derby378]

46. The Dallas Public Safety Committee begs to differ with the NY Attorney General

Violent crime down. Murder down. Gun sales up. It can be done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh3tuL_DVsE

[boppers]

36. 1% of criminals? How did the FBI come about that number?

Did they just do a random street survey, where they asked people if a) they were criminals, who b) carried a gun, and c) where they got said gun?

Or are you referring to the same stats as #28, which isn't about criminals at all, but about convicted inmates, currently serving time?

[TheWraith]

47. Uh, are you under the impression that convicts are not criminals?

Or are you just trying to spread FUD in order to avoid acknowledging the study?

[boppers]

50. I'm under the impression that convictions are only loosely correlated to crime.

Do you honestly believe that everybody who commits a crime is convicted?

Idiot #1 inherits a pistol from his father. He tries to rob a store. He gets caught in the store, and is arrested.
Idiot #2 buys a gun at a gun show. He commits 300 convenience store robberies, and is never caught.

Oh, look, the convict didn't get his gun from a show, therefore, shows aren't a problem!

Point being: Convictions have absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with crime.

[No Elephants]

26. ....

http://am.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/20/bloomberg-calls-for-end-to-gun-show-loophole/

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States especially the section entitled "Controversies."

[burf]

12. That's bullshit and you know it.

We've been through this over at the gungeon. Hint, NY State law § 896.

[jpak]

13. So, if were sell you a gun out of the back of my car - you wouldn't need a background check in NY?

no paperwork for the ATF?

:D

[burf]

17. Good luck in getting your car into the gun show.

Nice try.

[jpak]

30. You can sell in the parking lot - and most shows will allow ANYONE with an unloaded gun in

where they can sell to whom ever they like

background check or not

yup

[burf]

34. Bullshit again

NY State law § 896.

[NickB79]

33. I don't know about NY, but that would be perfectly legal in MN

Hell, I've sold guns out of my mom's kitchen before. I had to sell a couple hunting rifles back in college to pay for books, and so I just posted an ad in the local newspaper, got a call, the guy met me at my mom's (can't store guns on campus) and he paid in cash.

All perfectly legal. No background check or paperwork is required in a situation like that, either.

[jpak]

15. Oh yeah - this

from the OP

"It comes on the heels of an undercover probe into gun shows by New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. Investigators found an open marketplace for illegal weapons, with sellers disregarding mandatory background checks."

try again

yup

[burf]

19. Ten sales at six gunshows = open marketplace?

Remember that one? Its from the link in your post over on the guns forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x483900

[boppers]

37. Yes. In every single market attended, illegal sales were part of the market.

There's no legal incentive for the market organizers to keep out people who willingly sell illegally, and as a result, 100% of the markets investigated had "vendors" in them who were selling illegally.

100%. All of them. Every. Single. One.

That's a totally open marketplace, where illegal sales are tolerated, alongside legal ones.

Imagine a swap meet, street market, farmer's market, (etc.) environment, the kind you can go to and get wallets, or crafted table decorations, or fresh produce, whatever.

Now imagine that the AG investigated, and found that at every single street market they went to, there was somebody selling child porn.

Sure, they can arrest the person selling the porn, but the concept of a "no holds barred", open market, where the market has no rules, is anathema to a society that has rules about what can be sold, where it can be sold, and how it can be sold.

[burf]

39. Have you read the state statute?

It tells what is required of the gun show operators and private citizens selling guns. Who is at fault if the seller at the gun show is not in compliance with the law?

[boppers]

45. No, I have not.

Link Please.

As to "Who is at fault if the seller at the gun show is not in compliance with the law?", I would say the seller, *and* the persons running the show, *and* the other vendors at the show, all share some blame, from a moral, if not legal, perspective.

The seller: Because they are committing the crime.
The persons running the show: Because they are facilitating the crime.
The other vendors: Because they are failing to self-police their marketplace to prevent the crime.

If we started fining *every* vendor at a market as little as $10 for every illegal sale that occurred at the show, I'm pretty sure they'd rapidly figure out who the bad actors were, and keep them out, because it was in their economic interest to do so.

As it currently stands, there is no reason to do so, for the sociopaths among us... "oh, the guy in booth 14 is selling to felons prohibited from buying? Why should I care?"....

And, as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese demonstrated, NY culture is filled with sociopaths.

[SecularMotion]

41. Correction:The investigation resulted in 10 ARRESTS

We don't know how many illegal sales occurred that were undetected.

[hack89]

3. What are her plans about the newspaper, parking lot , and internet "loopholes" ?

all those other places where private sales of guns take place. She has no fucking clue about the legal private sale of guns.

[jpak]

10. All gun sales should have background checks and the proper paperwork filed with the ATF

If you do that, lots of criminals would not get guns

yup

[hack89]

21. You just need to convince all 50 states to pass the appropriate laws. nt

[SteveM]

23. Wrong yet again. "Lots of criminals would not get guns:" -1%? Ha. nt

[boppers]

38. All gun *transfers* is where checks and registrations need to happen.

The "1%" number doesn't seem to have much of a foundation (as it seems to be based on current inmates, not criminals), and even in those numbers, the vast majority of people who acquired weapons did not do so by building their own weapons... the weapon was built by others, and transferred to them somehow.

"keep and bear arms" is not the same as "sell, and broker, and barter, and give away, arms".

[SteveM]

51. If you want to somehow extend the NICS test universally...

such a plan would have to pass Constitutional muster; esp. with regard federalism. The Feds regulate dealers of firearms; this is considered part of the national government's purview. However, to extend a NICS testing scheme universally would envision powers beyond the national government's. In short, the state has powers to regulate in this regard. The extension of NICS has been discussed here in a very serious manner among pro-2A folks (I regret to say, most of the "ardent" anti-2A folks did not join in, though there were exceptions). We saw the federalism problem I described, and saw additional ones:

1) The form of such a scheme/agency. State? Local? NGO?
2) Security of the agency. How can the site remain secure from hackers, rabid anti-2A folks, the government itself.
3) Cost. How could costs be covered which would avoid impinging on those exercising their 2A rights (re: poll tax).
4) Danger of gun registration developing from such an agency.

That last one (4) is a non-starter among most 2A defenders. As your subject line indicates, such a scheme would be under immediate pressure to enact "registration." Put paraphrase, the NICS test "is not the same as registration, permanent record." IMO, most pro-2A folks see no insurmountable problem with costs and form of agency. They would have a problem with that agency's security, lest it devolve to yet another "registration" push which is, again, a non-starter.

State compacts, esp. through "model legislation," can get around the federalism objections. It is the inevitable push to make the NICS testing scheme a de facto registration scheme which makes universal NICS a problem.

The Bureau's statistics may not be the best, but they certainly should inform anyone who is interested in the most cost-effective manner for solving crime. "Transfer" of weapons, as the data indicates, seems to occur many times between criminals, and they will take the route of least exposure; a gun show does not fill that bill. In any case, gun shows are rent-a-halls. Or block parties. Or out of a trunk. What form (and the attendant ability for police to track criminal purchasers) is most effective for the thug, I'll leave to your judgment.

Thanks for the discussion.

[No Elephants]

32. She and quite a few others, apparently. Perhaps you should enlighten them.

[hack89]

35. How do you think people sell and buy guns every day?

gun shows are the tip of the iceberg.

[No Elephants]

44. What does your question have to do with what I posted to you?

[hack89]

49. Why is she and all those others ignoring the main methods that people sell guns

on the private market. A cynic would say that she is grandstanding while proposing legislation that would ignore the vast majority of private gun sales.

[Edweird]

24. Oh boy, here we go....

[Edweird]

40. .

.